An Ebay transaction first -soliciting opinions

[hcv123]

I have been selling on Ebay for over 20 years and have not encountered what I am about to describe.

I sold a 30 year old poster still sealed rolled in its original plastic packaging. The buyer received it, opened it (intending to frame it) and found that there were some spots of damage (paper loss) where the poster had apparently stuck to itself while sealed in the package.

In your opinion - who is responsible for what here?

Thanks.

Howard

[Leon]

If you buy something unopened it would seem you take the risk and reward unless something else was said concerning condition.

I have been selling on Ebay for over 20 years and have not encountered what I am about to describe.

I sold a 30 year old poster still sealed rolled in its original plastic packaging. The buyer received it, opened it (intending to frame it) and found that there were some spots of damage (paper loss) where the poster had apparently stuck to itself while sealed in the package.

In your opinion - who is responsible for what here?

Thanks.

Howard

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If it was an unopened wax box and the gum had eaten through the bottom two cards in every pack but he had to open the packs to find that out ebay would still force you to accept the return. In essence nobody is "responsible" however anywhere besides ebay the buyer would be S.O.L. because he, in essence, altered the state of the poster by opening it. But, when you know ebay is going to find for the buyer regardless my theory is win the customer service points and volunteer the refund. Hopefully it's not a big hit.

[botport]

Interesting question. Without answering the question directly of who is responsible for what I would assume you have three options.

1) No refund.
2) Partial refund.
3) Complete refund.

Not knowing more about the transaction specifics such as item value and if the buyer is threatening you with negative feedback I would advise offering a partial refund upon return of the poster. My reasoning is that although the buyer is surely disappointed you have no chance of receiving the item back in the condition that it was sold and delivered. In my opinion because of the removal of the poster from the original packaging you should not be responsible for a complete refund. No refund at all seems insensitive considering it is a reasonable expectation to receive a sealed poster in condition suitable for framing. Perhaps I am wrong with this assumption.

A possible solution would be to ask the buyer to return the poster for a partial refund with an additional refund to be sent after you relist and sell the returned item, minus your fees and costs of course. Hopefully, this type of solution would satisfy both parties.

[todeen]

If it was an unopened wax box and the gum had eaten through the bottom two cards in every pack but he had to open the packs to find that out ebay would still force you to accept the return. In essence nobody is "responsible" however anywhere besides ebay the buyer would be S.O.L. because he, in essence, altered the state of the poster by opening it. But, when you know ebay is going to find for the buyer regardless my theory is win the customer service points and volunteer the refund. Hopefully it's not a big hit.

+1

You have no chance of winning versus ebay's return policy. Although, I do suggest you attempt a partial return first, as stated by another user.

[Jim65]

Howard, I would just refund. If he opens a "item not as described", he will win the case. Theres no such thing as "no refunds". Even if you state no returns, Ebay's policy is that sellers must accept returns for "items not as described". If Ebay forces you to initiate the return, it goes as a mark against you.

If the buyer asks for partial refund, that's grounds to have any negative feedback removed.

[buymycards]

You took a chance by selling an unopened 30 year old poster. The buyer took a chance when he purchased it.

I would refund the money, let the buyer keep the poster, (because you don't want a damaged, opened poster), and move on. You have had this poster laying around for 30 years, so you really aren't out anything except for the shipping.

[1880nonsports]

just to note this - eBay will cover a seller in transactions where buyer has returned an item for being not as described. Believe you need to be a power seller and have offered 30+ day returns and something else that I don't remember....

I honestly think the BUYER is responsible - similar situation with cracking a slab. One has CHANGED the item that was sold..... That said - for mental health and in the spirit of doing the moral thing - I would just refund the buyer. I would NOT let them keep the item and the money.....

[bnorth]

just to note this - eBay will cover a seller in transactions where buyer has returned an item for being not as described. Believe you need to be a power seller and have offered 30+ day returns and something else that I don't remember....

I honestly think the BUYER is responsible - similar situation with cracking a slab. One has CHANGED the item that was sold..... That said - for mental health and in the spirit of doing the moral thing - I would just refund the buyer. I would NOT let them keep the item and the money.....

^^the bold parts^^ I think partial refunds are a HORRIBLE idea in any situation.

[packs]

How was the item described? Was it described as a "sealed poster" or something else? If you sold a buyer a sealed poster and shipped them a sealed poster, the item was as described.

[Case12]

Unless it is high dollar item with questionable circumstances, I would not hesitate to refund. It's the price (and respect) of doing business on eBay...

[hcv123]

I appreciate all the input and opinions. I asked this question preemptively. The buyer hasn't asked for anything yet (except for a replacement which he was willing to pay for and I do not have). He has not threatened negative feedback or opened a case.
While I couldn't have known about the condition of the poster, I feel bad that he didn't get what he thought he was getting.
The poster was described as "Brand new in package" - from 1989.
I can see reason in all opinions offered so far - still mulling over - more input is welcome.

[BruceinGa]

I would hope a seller would always want a buyer to be happy, giving positive feedback.
The only way where the buyer wouldn't be due a refund if the item would have been listed with some kind of description of an unknown condition. Most times I would think this wouldn't be offered, such as your case.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I'd start by offering a partial refund and allowing the buyer to keep the poster. Otherwise full refund upon return unless you just have no interest in the poster at all

[ValKehl]

I have been selling on Ebay for over 20 years and have not encountered what I am about to describe.

I sold a 30 year old poster still sealed rolled in its original plastic packaging. The buyer received it, opened it (intending to frame it) and found that there were some spots of damage (paper loss) where the poster had apparently stuck to itself while sealed in the package.

In your opinion - who is responsible for what here?

Thanks.

Howard

Howard, were I were the seller or the buyer, barring any words between us to the contrary, I would expect the poster to be in perfect or near-perfect condition. Since the poster wasn't (perhaps due to storage in a damp environment at some point in time), I feel that the buyer should be able to return it for a full refund, or be able to keep it with a mutually-agreed partial refund.

[Stampsfan]

One of my biggest frustrations in the world today is the lack of accountability people take for their own actions.

Buyer opens an old poster and it's damaged. How did he/she open it? Was there proper care taken?

You opened it, own up to it and go "WTF, my bad."

:mad:

[Jim65]

One of my biggest frustrations in the world today is the lack of accountability people take for their own actions.

Buyer opens an old poster and it's damaged. How did he/she open it? Was there proper care taken?

You opened it, own up to it and go "WTF, my bad."

:mad:
My comments are general and not directed towards Howard.

Doesn't the seller have accountability too? Maybe it was stored improperly in a wet basement. Is that the buyers fault?

If you buy a 1952 Topps unopened wax and the cards were all moldy from improper storage,are you going to just eat the loss? I wouldn't, the seller should be responsible.

[packs]

If I sold someone an unopened 1952 Topps pack and that person took it upon themselves to open it, no way is it acceptable to expect a full refund for an unopened pack of cards you decided to open.

An unopened poster is unopened. There is no reasonable expectation for the seller to know the condition of something that has never been opened. Using the unopened pack as an example, would it be appropriate for a buyer of an unopened pack to expect a refund if they opened the pack and found the cards were off center? If the piece of gum inside the pack stained the top or bottom card?

[Jim65]

If I sold someone an unopened 1952 Topps pack and that person took it upon themselves to open it, no way is it acceptable to expect a full refund for an unopened pack of cards you decided to open.

An unopened poster is unopened. There is no reasonable expectation for the seller to know the condition of something that has never been opened. Using the unopened pack as an example, would it be appropriate for a buyer of an unopened pack to expect a refund if they opened the pack and found the cards were off center? If the piece of gum inside the pack stained the top or bottom card?

Big difference is off centered cards don't happen by seller storing improperly.

[packs]

That's as much an assumption as anything else. Just my opinion but the seller sold a sealed poster and delivered a sealed poster. If the buyer wanted a poster it could see the condition of, there was probably an opportunity to buy one that wasn't sealed. By buying something you can't see, you are assuming the risk of what it turns out to be.

[steve B]

How much was it?

I didn't have many problems, and none on anything that was any decent amount of money.
Most of the stuff I sold was cheap, and if the buyers were at all pleasant about things I'd usually just refund them and move on without asking for the item back.
If they weren't nice about it, I did things differently.

Each case was different, but I usually went with the easiest thing.

[drcy]

Unless there was obvious 'external circumstances' damage to it (obvious from the outside that it was damaged-- torn, dented, mildew, water damage) the item is sold "as is." The seller is not expected to be a savant or svengali, and the buyer is often buying an unopened box for the gamble.

However, eBay is eBay. They can and often are wrong, but have final say.

Maybe it will happen that a buyer will want a refund because he didn't pull any 10s from an unopened box-- and perhaps eBay will give it to him.

[hcv123]

Again - thank you all for your input - the conflicting perspectives highlight well the dilemma and questions.

1) Is it reasonable to expect that the buyer would keep the poster in its unopened state seems like the really important consideration.

My thought after mulling this over is that it is a more reasonable scenario in the case of a poster (significantly different in my mind from an unopened pack of cards) that a buyer will want to open and display it and would be purchasing one that was unopened expecting it to be in better condition than an opened one.

2) There was no "intent to deceive" on either part - of course I couldn't know about the damage and nor could the buyer.

3) The poster including shipping was about $200 - somewhat irrelevant in my mind to the question at hand.

4) Everything that has been stated about Ebay - in my experience is 100% accurate and if it got to a "not as described case" I am almost certain Ebay would side with the buyer - regardless of reasonable mitigating circumstances.

5) The buyer has in the mean time communicated he wants a 100% refund. I am going to give it to him - 90% because I believe that is reasonable given the circumstances and 10% because any other decision would more than likely come back to bite me in the ass with Ebay!

[tschock]

Again - thank you all for your input - the conflicting perspectives highlight well the dilemma and questions.

1) Is it reasonable to expect that the buyer would keep the poster in its unopened state seems like the really important consideration.

My thought after mulling this over is that it is a more reasonable scenario in the case of a poster (significantly different in my mind from an unopened pack of cards) that a buyer will want to open and display it and would be purchasing one that was unopened expecting it to be in better condition than an opened one.

2) There was no "intent to deceive" on either part - of course I couldn't know about the damage and nor could the buyer.

3) The poster including shipping was about $200 - somewhat irrelevant in my mind to the question at hand.

4) Everything that has been stated about Ebay - in my experience is 100% accurate and if it got to a "not as described case" I am almost certain Ebay would side with the buyer - regardless of reasonable mitigating circumstances.

5) The buyer has in the mean time communicated he wants a 100% refund. I am going to give it to him - 90% because I believe that is reasonable given the circumstances and 10% because any other decision would more than likely come back to bite me in the ass with Ebay!

Just curious. Are you asking him to return the poster? I think for me, and as someone else pointed out, it depends on the 'pain point'. Again, just curious.

[Edwolf1963]

I feel bad that he didn't get what he thought he was getting.

I think what you noted here above pretty much sums it up. I would just refund it and move on if he asks for one.

[hcv123]

Just curious. Are you asking him to return the poster? I think for me, and as someone else pointed out, it depends on the 'pain point'. Again, just curious.

The unique thing about the poster was that it was never opened. With the damage and the fact that it is opened, it isn't worth investing anything more into. I told him I do not want it back (he offered to return it).

[Leon]

The unique thing about the poster was that it was never opened. With the damage and the fact that it is opened, it isn't worth investing anything more into. I told him I do not want it back (he offered to return it).

Good decision. Life is too short to let small issues take up too much time.

[Tyruscobb]

In my humble opinion, the general rule is that the buyer bears, at least on the secondary market, the entire risk. He must take the good with the bad. The exception is if the seller knew the issue existed and failed to properly disclose it. Absent proving the seller’s bad faith, the buyer takes the risk.

There was a chance the poster was pristine and worth considerably more than the paid price. If this occurred, I doubt the buyer would offer you a partial refund. There was also the chance for the opposite, as what occurred here, that the poster would be worth less than the selling price.. The buyer does not get to experience all the upside with no downside risk. This is my opinion.

If the buyer sent pictures and you are convinced the damage would’ve occurred even with exercising the utmost care, I would potentially give a partial refund. However, I don’t think you are obligated to do it.

[Leon]

While I said what I did above here, and I still believe it, I do agree the buyer bears most of the brunt. But it's still all about the shi$ to equity ratio. :)

In my humble opinion, the general rule is that the buyer bears, at least on the secondary market, the entire risk. He must take the good with the bad. The exception is if the seller knew the issue existed and failed to properly disclose it. Absent proving the seller’s bad faith, the buyer takes the risk.

There was a chance the poster was pristine and worth considerably more than the paid price. If this occurred, I doubt the buyer would offer you a partial refund. There was also the chance for the opposite, as what occurred here, that the poster would be worth less than the selling price.. The buyer does not get to experience all the upside with no downside risk. This is my opinion.

If the buyer sent pictures and you are convinced the damage would’ve occurred even with exercising the utmost care, I would potentially give a partial refund. However, I don’t think you are obligated to do it.

[D. Bergin]

I'll admit, when I first read this thread my initial reaction was to just refund and move on, without much discussion. Poster from the late 80's? Can't be that big of a deal, and yeah, you'd want it to unroll in pristine condition to display.

Now that I've gone and looked the item up and made comparisons, you are right in that the poster definitely sold at a premium BECAUSE it was unopened.

If this guy just wanted a poster to display, he could have bought an already opened poster of that same subject, in pretty good condition for much less.

Hope he sent you pictures of the poster as proof at least, and I also hope he wasn't just using you to upgrade an already damaged poster.

[perezfan]

This is really a tough one. As I read this thread from start to finish, I must have changed my opinion 3-4 times. Bottom line (unfortunately) is that eBay will inevitably side with the Buyer. So why make it difficult or uncomfortable?

I would just issue the refund (in exchange for getting the Poster back), and move on. No point in belaboring the issue or dragging it out, as we all know where eBay would land in the event of a dispute.

Definitely a bummer, but not the end of the world.

[LarsenMN]

You sold the item packaged, in it's sold form to the buyer. You are not the manufacturer of the item so any defects are not your responsibility. He would have to contact the manufacturer who will a. no longer be in business or b. manufacturer's warranty is now void. I had this problem selling new old stock pipes, as buyer would complain about manufacturer's flaws that I was not responsible for. I would imagine this poster was relatively inexpensive.

Although you are not at fault, My advice would be refund the money, let them keep the poster and put them on your "do not sell" list moving forward if you suspect they are trying to pull a fast one. From my experience, they complain once, they will complain again, again and again to try to get a better price. Even if you have a no questions asked 100% satisfaction refund. I even had buyers try to scam me giving me the "pity" card saying they are a retired vet with limited money, so I should give them 75% off my asking price. Not falling for that one.

[hcv123]

As stated I already gave the guy a refund and told him I didn't want the poster back. I'm glad to have sparked a thought provoking conversation.

He did send me pictures showing the damage and while I will never know for sure do not believe he was pulling a fast one. He stated the poster was for Bo Jackson (it was a Bo poster) to sign for a charity event.

As stated, Ebay's position on this is presumably clear - they will side with the buyer - right wrong or otherwise.

I stand by my earlier comment that my ultimate perspective after wrestling back and forth with it myself is it is a reasonable expectation that someone would open never opened old stock of an item like a poster (different in my mind than a pack of cards - or many other old unopened collectibles). As mentioned he could have purchased one that was not sealed - I think in a perfect world it would have been equitable to split the cost in some way, but given the Ebay factor - I didn't think it was worth the battle.

[bounce]

This one is easy to me just on principal

If it was unopened when it was sent, it has to be unopened coming back

Otherwise, the state of the item has changed

In the real world, just depends on dollar value - if it's more than a few bucks, like several hundred bucks, I would fight it all the way

If it's under $100, maybe different story

AND - agree with above, they'd instantly go on my blocked bidders list

[drcy]

You never said it was of Bo Jackson. That completely changes everything.