Jeter - minus 1? WTF??

[pclpads]

First, I'm neither a Jeter fan, nor a Yankees fan, so, no sour grapes or an axe to grind here. But, how could a supposed, informed baseball writer / voter deny Jeter a unanimous selection to the HOF? I fully realize there is one in every crowd, but this is inexcusable. This BBWAA HOF voting member should be stripped / barred from any future HOF balloting participation. Quite possibly it's the same moron who did this to Griffey, denying him unanimous election. That said, congrats to Mr. Jeter for an exemplary career and honor.

[drcy]

Jeter is clearly overrated, people thinking he deserved a higher HOF percentage than Ruth, Mays et al.

[Jim65]

I just don't understand why getting 99.7% is considered an insult or an injustice. Jeter got the highest percentage of any Shortstop in history. Thats not good enough?

[swarmee]

They probably didn't get a gift basket when they left his apartment, or didn't like the way he followed tradition and gutted the Marlins.

[Jcfowler6]

It’s over 75%. Does it really matter after that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trambo]

I read somewhere when Griffey wasn’t unanimous that there is one voter who will not vote for a player in their first year of eligibility regardless. If memory serves, this voter agreed to do so at the request of former voters who had done the same. I think it stems from a voter over Ruth not being unanimous.

Not sure if any of the above is true but I definitely remember reading something like that.

[GeoPoto]

I think everybody thought that went away when Rivera got 100%. But it is his (or her) vote and they don't have to explain it. Maybe he didn't want to "waste" it on a foregone conclusion, since everybody had decided Jeter couldn't miss before the vote. There are arguably 10 other deserving candidates on the ballot. Maybe tragedy intervened. We do have human voters.

[packs]

I think the conversation should start with WHY JETER? Mariano Rivera was maybe the greatest inning per inning pitcher of all time. There has never been another one like him and there probably won't be again. Jeter is a HOF player but he's not more than that. I don't think he was ever really considered the best shortstop in baseball at any one point in his career. Knowing that, how can there be so much support for 100% induction?

[Snapolit1]

Typical Yankee fan response:

I'm outraged that Jeter didn't get 100% of the votes.

Who is Larry Walker?

-----------------------

From 538.com:

Still, in some ways, Jeter would have been a curious choice to become the Hall of Fame’s first unanimous position player. He never won an MVP award, though he had eight top-10 finishes. He never led the league in batting, on-base percentage, slugging or WAR in any of his 20 seasons. He was named AL Player of the Month only once (August 1998). He ranks 88th all-time in WAR.

Jeter’s game also had a glaring weakness: He had a suspect glove. His five Gold Gloves were likely based more on reputation than skill, according to metrics that have long regarded Jeter as a poor defender. Jeter has the worst Defensive Runs Saved total (-152) since the stat was first recorded in 2003. The stat measures a defender’s ability to convert batted balls to outs relative to his positional peers. Had he played in today’s game, Jeter might very well have been moved off of shortstop. Yet Jeter played all 23,225 2/3 of his career innings in the field at one of the game’s most demanding defensive positions.

[Bpm0014]

Jeter is clearly overrated, people thinking he deserved a higher HOF percentage than Ruth, Mays et al.

Spot on

[maddux31]

I always hoped that Greg Maddux would get the first unanimous call to the hall, then a voter with asinine reasoning stepped in.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1914393-writers-trivial-rule-will-cost-greg-maddux-unanimous-hall-of-fame-vote

[maniac_73]

This whole unanimous thing has become nuts. Like others have said if Ruth and Aaron weren't unanimous, why would Jeter be? HOF caliber player but if he played his career in Atlanta unanimous wouldn't even be in the convo.

[bnorth]

I always hoped that Greg Maddux would get the first unanimous call to the hall, then a voter with asinine reasoning stepped in.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1914393-writers-trivial-rule-will-cost-greg-maddux-unanimous-hall-of-fame-vote

Jeter not getting 100% of the vote is silly. Just like many many before him should have got 100%.

[Orioles1954]

Who cares? He's in. Bitching for the sake of bitching.

[nsaddict]

Jimmie Foxx 79% in his 7th year of being eligible!

Jeter overrated for sure!

[tschock]

People, y'all are confusing individual voting with aggregates. The way it should work is, as a voter, I should vote if I feel he should be in the HOF. Yes or No. I should not vote based on what other people are voting or how Jeter compares to others already in (or not in).

However it has become a popularity vote contest, and not a HOF worthy consideration. A place where I, as a voter, can make a 'statement'.

If it truly was an HOF worthy consideration, then I can't see how Jeter wouldn't get 100% of the votes. If someone who voted can make their case as to why Jeter shouldn't be in, and not as it relates to other votes or other HOFers, then I can listen to that. If it's based on how others would vote, or if Jeter is more/less worthy than (insert name here), well, that's just pure and simple horseshit.

Signed,
Yankee hater and Jeter admirer

[perezfan]

Jeter received a higher percentage of HOF votes than any other position player in the history of baseball (Mariano was a Pitcher).

More than Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, etc. And that's only the Yankees. When you throw in names like Aaron, Mays, Musial, Wagner, Cobb, Foxx, Williams, Bench and Griffey then you can get a pretty good feeling for how overrated he was/is.

Great shortstop, but not the caliber of any of those players mentioned above. Yet he got more HOF votes than any of them... and Yankee Fans bitch about it. Even Jeter himself is focusing on the positive. This is a non-issue, and should not even be a debate.

[Butch7999]

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=250735

[doug.goodman]

Ok, I admit it, I didn't vote for Jeter.

I'm still butt hurt about the flip...

[brian1961]

First, I'm neither a Jeter fan, nor a Yankees fan, so, no sour grapes or an axe to grind here. But, how could a supposed, informed baseball writer / voter deny Jeter a unanimous selection to the HOF? I fully realize there is one in every crowd, but this is inexcusable. This BBWAA HOF voting member should be stripped / barred from any future HOF balloting participation.

Look Dave, the highly informed BBWAA did NOT even vote Yankee great Joe DiMaggio into the hall on his first year of eligibility, 1953. It wasn't even close, bro; Joe finished a distant 8th in the 1953 balloting. Moreover, he wasn't elected in his second year of eligibility, either. Finally, in the third year, he was enshrined. So much for instant gratification!

In case you were wondering, the waiting period before a retired player was eligible was different in those years.

--- Brian Powell

[BeanTown]

Whoever didn't vote him in is just a hater. What justification does the one writer have for not allowing? I would love to see the other players this writer has voted for and then we compare the stats! Jim Grey comes to mind as I can't stand that guy.

[Tripredacus]

Maybe he voted for Shawn Jeter by accident.

[mq711]

They probably didn't get a gift basket when they left his apartment, or didn't like the way he followed tradition and gutted the Marlins.

Didn’t consider the Marlins angle but should have lost more than one vote for screwing the South Florida fans.

[pclpads]

To quote Rodney Dangerfield: "Tough crowd, tough crowd." Geez, some of these replies make me feel like I stepped in a fresh, steaming pile of dog shit. Wow! :eek:

[thetruthisoutthere]

I don't understand the controversy about this; there isn't any.

Derek would have reacted with the same elegance whether it was 100% or 75%.

He was humbled to get voted in.

Overrated? No!!!

How many so-called stars where never able to handle the spotlight called New York.

Whatever anyone's opinion is, he is in the HOF; he possesses five WS rings (and earned them); he played the equivalent of one season in the playoffs and WS; his career average is .310; his Post-Season average is .308; 3,465 hits, etc.

And he handled the media like no one else could have.

Yeah, he's overrated.

Please.....

[BeanTown]

I think what Im torqued about is I look at his accomplishments and put him in the highest class of the Hall. Rings, stats, played for 1 team, how he played the game, and how he conducted himself off the field. I know it was one lone wolf who was either political or had some hidden vandetta against him. That writer is wrong and doesnt deserve to have a voice in the balloting. Yes, Im glad he is in the Hall on first ballot. But, just is sad that the clear and obvious choice wasnt reconognized by 100 percent.

I would make same arguments for a couple other players to. But, Im done venting now.

[Snapolit1]

Some stars haven't handled NY and countless thousands of guys have done just fine there, or thrived. Silly point. Lenny Dykstra thrived in NY. And the NY media loved him. Ditto Mark Bavero and Wayne Cherbet. Nuff said.

Yes, there is no way anyone with a right mind should look at that ballot and not vote for Jeter.

Yes, he is overrated. By a lot. Particularly in my home town, where I've almost had to fight Yankee fans who think Paul O'Neil was a hall of famer too because they watched him when there were 15 years old and wanted to be him because he contributed to good teams. Everything Bomber related is distorted. Yes, I'm aware last century they won a boatload of WS.

And, yes, I'm sure Jeter doesn't give a flying f*ck about any of this, despite the fact that Yankee fans are falling over in the street of Manhatan and The Bronx, clutching their pearls.

He was no Lou Gehrig.



I don't understand the controversy about this; there isn't any.

Derek would have reacted the same whether it was 100% of 75%.

He was humbled to get voted in.

Overrated? No!!!

How many so-called stars where never able to handle the spotlight called New York.

Whatever anyone's opinion is, he is in the HOF; he possesses five WS rings (and earned them); he played the equivalent of one season in the playoffs and WS; his career average is .310; his Post-Season average is .308; 3,465 hits, etc.

And he handled the media like no one else could have.

Yeah, he's overrated.

Please.....

[wdwfan]

So why does it matter if he didn't get one more vote? He's in the HOF and had a very HOF worthy career. Very classy guy. In 10-15 years, nobody's going to remember he didn't get 100% (without doing research). People will also remember his playing career and probably his induction into Cooperstown. Who cares if it wasn't 100%?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Some stars haven't handled NY and countless thousands of guys have done just fine there, or thrived. Silly point. Lenny Dykstra thrived in NY. And the NY media loved him. Ditto Mark Bavero and Wayne Cherbet. Nuff said.

Yes, there is no way anyone with a right mind should look at that ballot and not vote for Jeter.

Yes, he is overrated. By a lot. Particularly in my home town, where I've almost had to fight Yankee fans who think Paul O'Neil was a hall of famer too because they watched him when there were 15 years old and wanted to be him because he contributed to good teams. Everything Bomber related is distorted. Yes, I'm aware last century they won a boatload of WS.

And, yes, I'm sure Jeter doesn't give a flying f*ck about any of this, despite the fact that Yankee fans are falling over in the street of Manhatan and The Bronx, clutching their pearls.

He was no Lou Gehrig.

Uh-huh.

[pgconboy]

Jeter is lucky to have received as many votes as he did.

All advanced statistics suggest he was a defensive liability.

[Bigdaddy]

Jeter is lucky to have received as many votes as he did.

All advanced statistics suggest he was a defensive liability.

Do advanced statistics take into account 'The Flip' or the fact that he dove into the stands without regard for his health, to catch a foul pop against the Sox? He was the anchor of a 5 time WS winning infield for 20 years, at arguably the toughest position in baseball.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Jeter should have gotten a higher % of votes than Ruth or Cobb or Mays or.....they should have been 100% also. But the argument is that no knowledgeable baseball writer today should not consider Jeter a HOFer.

And don't forget that Jeter stayed clear of all the steroid controversy while many of those around him were either proven or accused of using. Including his biggest rivalry at SS in the AL - ARod and some of his teammates - Giambi.

The man is 6th all time in hits and 1st on the Yankees list of games, at-bats, hits and doubles and 2nd in runs and stolen bases.

And in case you are wondering, I'm a Reds fan and I don't think Jeter is the best SS to ever play. For my money, I'd take Cal (of players I've seen) and probably Honus all-time.

[pokerplyr80]

I think everybody thought that went away when Rivera got 100%. But it is his (or her) vote and they don't have to explain it. Maybe he didn't want to "waste" it on a foregone conclusion, since everybody had decided Jeter couldn't miss before the vote. There are arguably 10 other deserving candidates on the ballot. Maybe tragedy intervened. We do have human voters.

This is the one argument against voting for an obvious choice that should have been unanimous I have heard over the years that makes sense to me.

The guys who just don't think anyone deserves 100% of the vote should not be allowed to vote at all. It was just as ridiculous when Babe Ruth was left off some ballots as it has been with most other first ballot HOFers.

[drcy]

This is the one argument against voting for an obvious choice that should have been unanimous I have heard over the years that makes sense to me.

The guys who just don't think anyone deserves 100% of the vote should not be allowed to vote at all. It was just as ridiculous when Babe Ruth was left off some ballots as it has been with most other first ballot HOFers.


If votes are supposed to be preordained and people will be booted off and pitchforks taken up because they vote differently on issues, there shouldn't be votes. Apparently, some people think voting means you get to choose between Yes and Yes.

I am in general suspicious of unanimous votes, because it often indicates groupthink and a lot of yes men.

Besides, as far as HOF enshrinement goes, the induction percentage is just trivial trivia. As DiMaggio and Jimmy Foxx demonstrate, it's not an indication of anything significant. No one, including here, looks at induction percentages when ranking Pre-War players. No one anywhere says Robin Yount is better than Joe DiMaggio (And I say that as a Robin Yount fan).

[pgconboy]

Do advanced statistics take into account 'The Flip' or the fact that he dove into the stands without regard for his health, to catch a foul pop against the Sox? He was the anchor of a 5 time WS winning infield for 20 years, at arguably the toughest position in baseball.


You earnestly believe that advanced stats don't pit shorts stops against other short stops or that Jeter had a 'flip' that transcends the ability to be captured with numbers?

Jeter had a negative defensive war. Other metrics caught on to this as well:

"Since defensive runs saved (DRS) — indicates how many runs a player saved or hurt his team in the field compared to the average player at his position — became a statistic in 2003 until his retirement in 2014, Derek Jeter posted the worst rating among qualified shortstops with a staggering -152 DRS"

[packs]

dWAR is a useless stat. It gives Mattingly a negative breakdown even though he is more or less universally regarded as an all world first baseman.

How do I know Jeter was a terrible shortstop? I saw him play everyday.

And whoever is trying to knock Paul O'Neill down a peg, shame on you!

[Vintageclout]

First, I'm neither a Jeter fan, nor a Yankees fan, so, no sour grapes or an axe to grind here. But, how could a supposed, informed baseball writer / voter deny Jeter a unanimous selection to the HOF? I fully realize there is one in every crowd, but this is inexcusable. This BBWAA HOF voting member should be stripped / barred from any future HOF balloting participation. Quite possibly it's the same moron who did this to Griffey, denying him unanimous election. That said, congrats to Mr. Jeter for an exemplary career and honor.

I’ll make this very simple....enough already with Jeter not getting 100% of the vote. Ruth, Cobb, Mathewson, Johnson, Wagner, Mays, Musial, Young, Williams, Aaron, etc., etc., etc., ALL weren’t unanimous, and that is a much greater tragedy than Jeter falling short. Bottom line is ALL of our National Pastime’s immortals merit the 100% honor so why is everyone making such a big deal about Jeter falling one vote short.....get over it.

[Bigdaddy]

I’ll make this very simple....enough already with Jeter not getting 100% of the vote. Ruth, Cobb, Mathewson, Johnson, Wagner, Mays, Musial, Young, Williams, Aaron, etc., etc., etc., ALL weren’t unanimous, and that is a much greater tragedy than Jeter falling short. Bottom line is ALL of our National Pastime’s immortals merit the 100% honor so why is everyone making such a big deal about Jeter falling one vote short.....get over it.

Agree. My beef is with the names you mentioned above as well as, if not more, than Jeter.

But at the end of the day, the definition of a HOFer is whether you are in or not. Doesn't matter if a player was elected after he died or many years after his career or unanimously in his first year of eligibility. Everyone gets a plaque on the inside of the building and the right to say that they were/are a HOFer.

[ullmandds]

I'm not sure why it's such a tragedy the inaugural class was not inducted unanimously?

The HOF was brand new!

Presumably most...if not all people voting at that time knew most if not all of the players that were ultimately inducted...and at that time there was nothing to base their votes on what makes one "worthy" of the HOF.

Certainly some voters had opinions...based on 1st hand experience with these players that affected their votes?

Some of these players had questionable moral character...maybe cheated in some ways.

[perezfan]

If votes are supposed to be preordained and people will be booted off and pitchforks taken up because they vote differently on issues, there shouldn't be votes. Apparently, some people think voting means you get to choose between Yes and Yes.

I am in general suspicious of unanimous votes, because it often indicates groupthink and a lot of yes men.

Besides, as far as HOF enshrinement goes, the induction percentage is just trivial trivia. As DiMaggio and Jimmy Foxx demonstrate, it's not an indication of anything significant. No one, including here, looks at induction percentages when ranking Pre-War players. No one anywhere says Robin Yount is better than Joe DiMaggio (And I say that as a Robin Yount fan).

Great post right there....

Again... Jeter got the highest-ever percentage of votes for any position player in the history of baseball.

So in the immortal words of Chrissie Hynde…. Stop Your Sobbing!

[Huysmans]

Great post right there....

Again... Jeter got the highest-ever percentage of votes for any position player in the history of baseball.

So in the immortal words of Chrissie Hynde…. Stop Your Sobbing!

I agree Mark, David's post was the most salient thus far.
And to touch on your thoughts, ONLY in this modern society do you find people actually getting what they want, and STILL whining and complaining!
... it's pathetic really.

So no need for any Holy Commotions or to add any Middle of the Road comments. Maybe if these Bad Boys get Spanked for whining about a single Precious vote, or they were put Back on the Chain Gang, they would change their tune. Buck up naysayers, you still have Brass in Pocket.
Goodbye

[Fred]

I just don't understand why getting 99.7% is considered an insult or an injustice. Jeter got the highest percentage of any Shortstop in history. Thats not good enough?

Jeter is probably number 2 in terms of vote percentage for HOF enshrinement. He only missed by 1 to be unanimous.

I'm not sure if it's an injustice or insult, but it does show that there are voters that may not care for a player. I mean really - Babe Ruth not unanimous?

There are several players that should have been unanimous picks. The fact that it took Mariano to be the first was surprising. Not saying he didn't deserve to be unanimous.

Some writers just have their heads up their ass.

[BeanTown]

maybe cheated in some ways.


So, would you consider Ruth as a cheater if he drank during prohibition? Using a banned substance good or bad for you is irrelevant.

[rats60]

Great post right there....

Again... Jeter got the highest-ever percentage of votes for any position player in the history of baseball.

So in the immortal words of Chrissie Hynde…. Stop Your Sobbing!

Ray Davies not Chrissie Hynde.

[timzcardz]

First, Jeter is 100% a Hall of Famer. Pretty sure that there are no partials.




Now, has anyone here never made a mistake on a form by not checking off the correct box, or forgetting to check one off?

Could it be a case of simple human error?

There is always the possibility that the voter intended to vote for Jeter and screwed up.

[HRBAKER]

I'm still too distraught over Harry and Meghan to worry about this.

[drcy]

When my dad was a professor, a student came into his office worried she was going to get a B, because she was a 4.0 student who had never gotten anything below an A.

He said "Getting a B is good for you. Getting all A's is not good for a student."

[cardsagain74]

When my dad was a professor, a student came into his office worried she was going to get a B, because she was a 4.0 student who had never gotten anything below an A.

He said "Getting a B is good for you. Getting all A's is not good for a student."

Your dad was wrong. I was a much better student when I was motivated to keep straight As. When there were plenty of Bs mixed in too, you just shrug and accept a little more mediocrity and are content with a slightly lower GPA

[cardsagain74]

And I'm surprised that guy from the other recent HOF thread isn't here writing smug diatribes about how overrated Jeter was.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment.

[bnorth]

And I'm surprised that guy from the other recent HOF thread isn't here writing smug diatribes about how overrated Jeter was.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment.

I also noticed his absence in this thread. Walker is one of the best ever and Jeter is a no hit, no power, no glove overrated scrub.;)

[cardsagain74]

I also noticed his absence in this thread. Walker is one of the best ever and Jeter is a no hit, no power, no glove overrated scrub.;)

And here is a 123403 page breakdown of both guys' breakfast meals, internet browser histories, and subconscious thoughts during their playing days

[mattsey9]

It's certainly possible that someone had 10 candidates on their ballot and left Jeter off knowing he was a lock in favor of a player who needed a lift.

That or someone was a good friend of Tony Perez or Andre Dawson and was giving a receipt.

[Kenny Cole]

Yawn. Doesn't matter a bit. He's in.

[doug.goodman]

Ray Davies not Chrissie Hynde.

Ray wrote it, the Kinks originally played it, Chrissie made it famous...

[perezfan]

Ah yes, the great Ray Davies... Such a marvelous and underrated band, The Kinks.

But if I didn't use Chrissie, we wouldn't have gotten the very clever Pretenders post (#40 in the thread) from Brent!

Somewhat ironically, both The Pretenders and The Kinks are in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. I wonder if anyone in that particular Hall of Fame missed being unanimous by a single vote? Now if that happened to The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or Rolling Stones, we would have a real problem!

[cammb]

First, I'm neither a Jeter fan, nor a Yankees fan, so, no sour grapes or an axe to grind here. But, how could a supposed, informed baseball writer / voter deny Jeter a unanimous selection to the HOF? I fully realize there is one in every crowd, but this is inexcusable. This BBWAA HOF voting member should be stripped / barred from any future HOF balloting participation. Quite possibly it's the same moron who did this to Griffey, denying him unanimous election. That said, congrats to Mr. Jeter for an exemplary career and honor.


Spoken like a true yankee fan

[the 'stache]

And I'm surprised that guy from the other recent HOF thread isn't here writing smug diatribes about how overrated Jeter was.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment.

If you're referring to me, nothing "smug" about my post. Facts are facts. If you don't like it....if your delicate sensibilities can't handle frank discussions, avoid them.

Jeter is a worthy Hall of Famer. I never said he wasn't. I never said he didn't deserve to be in on the first ballot. Never said I didn't like the guy. I'm a fan. I thought he was a great teammate, worthy of the Yankee captainship. I did say that he didn't deserve 100%, as he's clearly not in the class of the game's all-time greats. I didn't broach the subject, but since people make such a big deal over vote percentage now, I'm going to weigh in. And this ridiculous "outrage" from some because one voter left him off the ballot, as if it were the end of the world-those people need to get a life.

If you don't like my posts, that's fine. Put me on ignore, or shut the fuck up about what I have to say. Or, gulp, try to make a post repudiating what I've said. But you can't-far easier for people like you to shit on someone than to discredit what they've said.

Jeter is incredibly overrated. He was a singles hitter. He didn't hit doubles or triples. His home run rate, for the era, and even compared to his peers, was low. He didn't walk. His OBP was almost entirely driven by his average. He struck out way, way too much for a guy having so little power. He was an average defender at best.

Prove me wrong! Otherwise, keep your fucking snide comments to yourself.

[the 'stache]

I also noticed his absence in this thread. Walker is one of the best ever and Jeter is a no hit, no power, no glove overrated scrub.;)

I never said Walker was one of the best ever. I said he was one of 12 players to ever reach a .310 lifetime AVG, 350 home runs, and 1,000 RBI. What he did put him into select company that would seem to dictate he should have been in Cooperstown before his last ballot.

If you don't like my posts, same advice for you: put me on ignore, add something intelligent to the conversation (and saying "Jeter has more hits, and more RBI" doesn't qualify), or shut it.

Walker was better than Jeter across the board. Prove me wrong, if you can.

[bnorth]

I never said Walker was one of the best ever. I said he was one of 12 players to ever reach a .310 lifetime AVG, 350 home runs, and 1,000 RBI. What he did put him into select company that would seem to dictate he should have been in Cooperstown before his last ballot.

If you don't like my posts, same advice for you: put me on ignore, add something intelligent to the conversation (and saying "Jeter has more hits, and more RBI" doesn't qualify), or shut it.

Walker was better than Jeter across the board. Prove me wrong, if you can.

No way would I put you on ignore. You posted 2 F bombs in the post before you replied to mine. I disagree with you but damn are you funny to read.:)

[the 'stache]

No way would I put you on ignore. You posted 2 F bombs in the post before you replied to mine. I disagree with you but damn are you funny to read.:)

Simpletons are easily amused.

[BeanTown]

Let's remember the game Jeter had his 3000th hit. He went 5-5 and the 3000th hit was a Homerun. Then to break the tie in the 8th inning he had a single which scored the winning run from thirdbase. He has been clutch most of his career and sometimes you just need a single. Toughest base to get on in baseball is first.

https://youtu.be/IhXSgy5CbSI

[the 'stache]

Let's remember the game Jeter had his 3000th hit. He went 5-5 and the 3000th hit was a Homerun. Then to break the tie in the 8th inning he had a single which scored the winning run from thirdbase. He has been clutch most of his career and sometimes you just need a single. Toughest base to get on in baseball is first.

https://youtu.be/IhXSgy5CbSI

I completely agree that Jeter has come up huge, in the biggest moments. His post season play enhances his Hall candidacy immensely. He hit .310 in the regular season, and, iirc, .308 lifetime in the playoffs. He had essentially the same performance level against decidedly tougher competition. Every team in the playoffs is good. Jeter clearly elevated his play in the playoffs to meet the level of opposition.

Would I have had Jeter on the Brewers? In a New York minute. I'd have loved to have him on my team. His influence on his teammates goes beyond mere stats. Jeter did things that don't show up in the box score. He was a complete professional. He came to play every day, and played his heart out. He led by example. Never beat his chest, never stood there watching one of his home runs sail over the wall. Jeter is a bit of a throwback, imho; he'd have been the first guy in the dugout to quietly pull a player aside, and tell them, "you need to do better." He thrived in the biggest sports media market in the world.

I don't understand why some people make a discussion of this kind so personal. When the names of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, et all are invoked, if we're talking about Jeter, an accurate picture should be painted, shouldn't it? There's nothing wrong with being labeled a second tier Hall of Famer. There are relatively few guys that have ever achieved the level of play that Ruth, Williams, Walter Johnson, Stan Musial, Ty Cobb, Tom Seaver et all reached. Being in the Hall is an incredible honor. But it's vitally important that history gets depicted accurately.

[Bigdaddy]

Jeter is incredibly overrated. He was a singles hitter. He didn't hit doubles or triples.

Prove me wrong! Otherwise, keep your fucking snide comments to yourself.

So how did not hitting doubles end up with him leading the Yankees all-time in doubles? Past Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra, Mattingly (a doubles machine) - you name it, everyone that ever wore the pinstripes.

And yes, he mostly was a singles hitter. But he's #6 all-time, and in fewer years (20) than anyone in front of him. In fact, you have to go all the way down to #15 on the all-time hit list to find anyone with fewer years (some guy named Pujols with 19).

Jeter's not the greatest Yankee or greatest shortstop ever, but he was great. And in an era where PEDs had a major impact on the game, his name was never mentioned. Which can't be said of his teammates (Giambi, Pettite) or his biggest rival at SS - ARod.

[the 'stache]

So how did not hitting doubles end up with him leading the Yankees all-time in doubles? Past Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra, Mattingly (a doubles machine) - you name it, everyone that ever wore the pinstripes.

And yes, he mostly was a singles hitter. But he's #6 all-time, and in fewer years (20) than anyone in front of him. In fact, you have to go all the way down to #15 on the all-time hit list to find anyone with fewer years (some guy named Pujols with 19).

Jeter's not the greatest Yankee or greatest shortstop ever, but he was great. And in an era where PEDs had a major impact on the game, his name was never mentioned. Which can't be said of his teammates (Giambi, Pettite) or his biggest rival at SS - ARod.

First of all. Don Mattingly? The "doubles machine" had 7,003 career at bats. Jeter had 11,195 at bats. You think Jeter might have a few more doubles in 4,192 more at bats? DiMaggio? He had even fewer at bats than Mattingly, 6,821. And he was too busy hitting triples (131) and home runs (361). Gehrig? 8,001 at bats. Only 3,194 fewer AB than Jeter. And Gehrig had 163 triples, 493 home runs. Ruth? 8,399 at bats. 2,796 fewer than Jeter. And Ruth had 136 triples and 714 home runs. Mantle? 8,102 at bats. 72 triples, 536 home runs, and, oh yeah, he lost a lot of at bats because he was getting walked 1,733 times. Berra only had 7,555 at bats, and like Mantle, he wasn't a great doubles machine.

Think about the questions you're asking before you ask them. Why did no Yankee have more doubles than Jeter? The ones you listed had far fewer at bats, and were generally trotting around the bases after hitting the ball into the seats! And by the way, Mattingly was a double machine at his peak. 1984-1986, he hit 145 doubles, or 50 per 162 games. From 1997 until the end of his career, he averaged 38 doubles per 162 games, only 6 more than Jeter's 32.

For his career, on a 162 game basis, and 743 plate appearances per 162 games played, Jeter averaged 32 doubles. He went over 40 doubles one time in a season. Once.

That's not hitting doubles. His career total looks impressive until you look at how long he played, how many plate appearances he had. That he hit over 500 is merely a product of how long he played the game.

There are, as of this posting, 63 players in Major League history with over 500 doubles. Derek Jeter averaged one double every 23.17 plate appearances in his career, the third lowest rate of all 63 players on the list. Only Willie Mays (a double every 23.89) and Rickey Henderson (a double every 26.17) had a lower double-per-PA-rate. Willie Mays walked 1,464 times, had 140 triples and hit 660 home runs. Mays was doing a lot more than hitting doubles, so the relatively low double rate can be excused. And Henderson? Well, he walked 2,190 times, more than double Jeter's 1,082 walks. Then there's Henderson's 1,406 stolen bases, which is only 1,048 more than Jeter. In short, the other two guys with a lower double rate were doing other things. Mays was sending the ball into the seats, and Henderson was getting a free pass, and then turning that walk or single into a double a few seconds later.

It's great Jeter has 3,465 hits. Respectfully, I said he was a great pure hitter. A .310 AVG is fantastic for that long. You'll get absolutely no argument from me there. But that's also the problem. Offensively, that's really all that Jeter did. We're talking Hall of Fame, here. Within the context of the offensive players in Cooperstown, Jeter, comparatively, didn't do nearly as much as most of the greats. My contention has never been that Derek Jeter didn't belong. He does, clearly. No, my whole contention, from post one, has been that he didn't measure up to the immortals of the game-Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle from the Yankees, as well as Cobb, Mathewson, Johnson, Musial, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc. Once the subject of induction on 100% of the vote came up last year with Mariano Rivera, and it was mentioned that Jeter would probably replicate it-there I had an issue with it. In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Nope. But when people discuss it beyond the hallowed halls of Cooperstown, they'll point to a 100% vote as evidence that "Jeter was one of the small handful of all-time greats". No, he wasn't. He wasn't on par with Honus Wagner, who is still the gold standard for Jeter's position. Jeter wasn't even the best shortstop on his own team for much of his career. Ripken and Yount were both, in their prime, better than Jeter. Nomar Garciaparra, whose career was ruined by injuries (why? I won't speculate here, though the argument made that it could have been due to steroids, given the others on the Red Sox we know used)-he was every bit Jeter's equal offensively, and better defensively.

I give Derek Jeter a hell of a lot of credit for playing as long as he did, and at that position. Playing 156, 157, 158 games every year, while people are sliding into you turning the double play--his durability, and his consistently high average, are major checks in the plus column for him. I mentioned Garciaparra. Jeter was still an All Star by the time Garciaparra's career, for all intents and purposes, was over. No matter how you slice it, almost 3,500 hits, and nearly 2,000 runs scored is impressive. It's just not the creme de la creme.

-He did not walk. Of the 32 players with over 3,000 hits, Jeter is 24th in walk rate at 8.6%
-He didn't hit for power. Of the 32 players over 3,000 hits, Jeter's 870 extra base hits (25.11% of his hits total) is 26th. Albert Pujols ranks #1, as 1,333 of his 3,202 hits were extra base hits.
-He hit singles. A lot of them. Of the 32 3,000 hit members, Jeter is 5th all-time in singles with 2,595, and three of the guys ahead of him, Cobb, Eddie Collins and Cap Anson, played in the dead ball era. Only Pete Rose, with 3,215 singles, had more in the modern era. But Rose had 3,288 more plate appearances to get them.

Typically, an immortal, an all-time great, does more than one thing well, right? Jeter got on base, and scored runs. That's it. I just can't label him an all-time great, not when so many Hall of Famers did so many things better than him.

[the 'stache]

And yes, he mostly was a singles hitter. But he's #6 all-time, and in fewer years (20) than anyone in front of him. In fact, you have to go all the way down to #15 on the all-time hit list to find anyone with fewer years (some guy named Pujols with 19).


Forgot to answer this. You shouldn't be thinking in terms of years, because not all years are alike. First of all, the seasons now are 162 games. They used to be 154, right? I seem to remember a lot of discussion about Roger Maris and an asterisk because he didn't break Ruth's record in 154 games. That's 8 games a season more that Jeter played than many of the guys on this list. So, when you say Jeter played in fewer seasons, well, 8 games more played a season, after a few decades....it adds up.

Additionally, depending on where a guy hits in the lineup, they could see significantly more plate appearances, right? Jeter had 12,602 career PAs. 4,649 of those came from the #1 spot in the batting order. 6,753 more came from the #2 position. 11,402 of his career PAs came from the first or second position in the lineup. Many of the guys you referenced as having played more years...they're power hitters, and will be batting in the #4 or 4 slot in the lineup. Fewer PAs per season.

Of the 32 guys in the 3,000 hit club, Jeter had the most PAs per 162 games played:

Jeter 743 PA
Molitor 734
Anson 727
Rose 722
Boggs 713
Biggio 710
Pujols 701

Except for Pujols, all singles hitters, for the most part. Not a lot of real power.

Yastrzemski 685 PA
Aaron 685 PA
Musial 680 PA
Mays 676 PA
Kaline 662 PA

Jeter came to the plate a lot more than the guys behind him. That he achieved his hit total in "fewer seasons" is really a misnomer.

[the 'stache]

I owe cardsagain and Ben an apology for the way I responded to their posts. There was no need for profanity. I'm not going to redact what I posted-I'll leave that to Leon, if he feels doing so is warranted.

But you know what, guys? Again, if you don't like what I post, or the length of my posts annoys you, there's an ignore feature on the forum for a reason. I suggest you use it. Badmouthing someone behind their back is incredibly low class. I have a right to express my opinion, respectfully, and you can either agree with what I have to say, and respond in kind, disagree with what I have to say, and provide evidence as to why you disagree with me, or you can say nothing.

Yes, I tend to write a lot. I put a lot of thought into my posts because, honestly, I see a lot of this kind of talk elsewhere, and statements are presented as fact, and there's no supporting evidence. None. We throw things out there quite casually, and there's little to no truth to much of it. If the sheer length of my carefully thought out posts offends you, ignore it, and move on.

I have to find ways to try and fill my time. If my analysis isn't appreciated, there are plenty of other threads about rampant fraud, and the crooks in the hobby to hold your attention. Plenty of talk about the latest scandal in baseball ("sign stealing"), or football ("deflated balls, taping practices"), etc etc.

[cardsagain74]

I owe cardsagain and Ben an apology for the way I responded to their posts. There was no need for profanity. I'm not going to redact what I posted-I'll leave that to Leon, if he feels doing so is warranted.

But you know what, guys? Again, if you don't like what I post, or the length of my posts annoys you, there's an ignore feature on the forum for a reason. I suggest you use it. Badmouthing someone behind their back is incredibly low class. I have a right to express my opinion, respectfully, and you can either agree with what I have to say, and respond in kind, disagree with what I have to say, and provide evidence as to why you disagree with me, or you can say nothing.

Yes, I tend to write a lot. I put a lot of thought into my posts because, honestly, I see a lot of this kind of talk elsewhere, and statements are presented as fact, and there's no supporting evidence. None. We throw things out there quite casually, and there's little to no truth to much of it. If the sheer length of my carefully thought out posts offends you, ignore it, and move on.

I have to find ways to try and fill my time. If my analysis isn't appreciated, there are plenty of other threads about rampant fraud, and the crooks in the hobby to hold your attention. Plenty of talk about the latest scandal in baseball ("sign stealing"), or football ("deflated balls, taping practices"), etc etc.

You keep using words that don't apply like "annoyed", "offended", and so on, but we were just poking a little fun at the laborious nature of your posts (and the pompous nature with which that omniscience is often delivered.) This is just an internet forum; most people don't share your need to get so involved with every detail about Larry Walker and Derek Jeter being presented and considered down to the nth degree. A random online person's misconceptions about such topics really aren't that big of a deal.

[AndrewJerome]

Hi Bill,

I enjoy your analysis. Just curious where you'd put Jeter in your all time rankings of just shortstops.

I'd have

1) Wagner
2) Arod
3) Probably Jeter. Close call between Ripken, Jeter, Banks, and Yount

Andrew

[CMIZ5290]

Jeter was incredible, slam dunk first ballot HOF....As far as 100% of the vote goes, I would lean more towards Ken Griffey Jr.....In actuality they both should be, just saying....

[rhettyeakley]

Hi Bill,

I enjoy your analysis. Just curious where you'd put Jeter in your all time rankings of just shortstops.

I'd have

1) Wagner
2) Arod
3) Probably Jeter. Close call between Ripken, Jeter, Banks, and Yount

Andrew

Andrew I know you weren’t asking me but I like the idea.

1. Wagner
2. Arod
3. Ripken
4. Arky Vaughan (could have been higher if he didn’t lose several seasons because he hated Leo Durocher)
5. Jeter-Banks-yount group (pretty similar overall in my opinion, each with different strengths and weaknesses)
6. The next tier of guys like Ozzie Smith, Barry Larkin, Joe Cronin, etc

Also keep in mind Arod and Yount both played about half their games at other positions so you could make an argument that they shouldn’t be on the list at all when speaking of purely shortstops.

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice list, Rhett. I saw the whole careers of Ozzie Smith and Derek Jeter, and I have Smith slightly ahead, as does this "JAWS" list of the best of all time. Don't ask me to explain this advanced stat, but it seems to churn out the right names....some notables: 8th Smith, 10th Dahlen, 12th Jeter, 18th Glasscock, 24th Joe Tinker, 4th George Davis...

Here are a few Pebbly Jack cards. I'd like to see him in the HOF.

www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

[Bigdaddy]

Bill, you simply threw out a challenge - "Prove me wrong" and I took up the challenge, though not with the thoroughness that you tend to reply with.

I think we probably both rate Jeter about the same - first ballot HOF, but not in the rare air of Mays, Ruth, Cobb, etc. I might rate him a tad higher, but that's only because of seeing him so much on TV (especially in the fall), in person and because he was my son's favorite player. We made many trips to Baltimore to see the Yankees over the years.

And in response to the other question about all-time shortstops and especially Arod, I believe he might have been THE BEST all-time if he hadn't juiced. The PEDs gave him some more power, but along with the bulk he picked up he lost his range, quickness and flexibility that are required to play SS. Made him a great 3rd baseman, where you only need two steps to either side, but diminished his skills at short.

Overall, my list today is:

1. Wagner
2. Ripken
3. Jeter/Ozzie
5. Yount/Arod (because of time spent elsewhere on the diamond)
6. Banks?

[Kenny Cole]

Bill, you simply threw out a challenge - "Prove me wrong" and I took up the challenge, though not with the thoroughness that you tend to reply with.

I think we probably both rate Jeter about the same - first ballot HOF, but not in the rare air of Mays, Ruth, Cobb, etc. I might rate him a tad higher, but that's only because of seeing him so much on TV (especially in the fall), in person and because he was my son's favorite player. We made many trips to Baltimore to see the Yankees over the years.

And in response to the other question about all-time shortstops and especially Arod, I believe he might have been THE BEST all-time if he hadn't juiced. The PEDs gave him some more power, but along with the bulk he picked up he lost his range, quickness and flexibility that are required to play SS. Made him a great 3rd baseman, where you only need two steps to either side, but diminished his skills at short.

Overall, my list today is:

1. Wagner
2. Ripken
3. Jeter/Ozzie
5. Yount/Arod (because of time spent elsewhere on the diamond)
6. Banks?

Even before (and after) he juiced, ARod was a better SS than Jeter. By far. Jeter should have moved, not ARod. ARod was sooooo much a better SS than Jeter was that it isn't even funny. FAR more range, more glove, more everything. Yet he moved. Jeter didn't. I always viewed that as selfish.

I don't disagree that Jeter is a first ballot HOFer, whatever that means. He was offensively, a consistent and productive hitter, particularly in the clutch situations. Not a doubt. I agree with Bill's analysis in that regard. But he is still not nearly the best HOFer as a SS ever. That argument literally can't be made with a straight face except, maybe, by a diehard Yankee fan. That is my problem with that silly 100% argument. It doesn't matter any more than if you are elected on the 1st or last ballot. If you are in, you are in. You are, by definition, a 100% HOFer. At that point WTF does it matter what your vote percentage is?

[jchcollins]

How is it possibly rational to suggest stripping the writer of his BBWAA credentials for not making Jeter unanimous, when for all but one person ever in the HOF, it has NEVER worked that way? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in a while. Babe Ruth wasn’t unanimous. Walter Johnson wasn’t, Willie Mays wasn’t, Griffey Jr. wasn’t. It’s how it works. Get over it.


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