Name that card...T213-2 sheet layout and distribution by year

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a miscut T213-2 Art Fromme that shows a portion of another card. The dark blue makes me think of Red Murray. From their stats page via baseball reference, Murray played for the NY Giants in 1914, the Giants and Cubs in 1915, and the Toronto Maple Leafs in 1916.

The T213-2 set contains 3 Murrays...a 1914 NY, 1915 Chicago, and a Kansas City card. I can't find a record of Murray playing for KC. An error card, or maybe someone has info on Murray playing for KC.

Art Fromme played for the Giants in 1914 and part of 1915. He played for Vernon from 1915-1921. Fromme only has one card in T213-2 featured as a New York Giant.

Are the two images on the m/c card from 1914 and does it mean that T213-2 cards were grouped by team on a sheet in 1914?

[buymycards]

Baseball reference doesn't show Murray playing for KC. Murray is the only card in the set that has that deep blue color. Speaker, Schaefer, and Wiltse are close, but they are a little lighter.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks for posting Murray KC, Rick. I don't think I've actually seen one before. It's been a card on a checklist for a while.

I think it's interesting that the issuers did not make an update for Fromme with the Vernon designation as they did for Quinn, or Murray with Toronto as they did for Jordan and Kelley.

[buymycards]

There is also Germany Schaefer with a Kansas City caption, and I don't see any info that he played for KC.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's another interesting card of Elberfeld of the Brooklyn Robins. He last played for them in 1914 and went to Chattanooga in 1915 and 1916, for which he also has a card. The card on top is Hoblitzell Boston Amer. I could not find him on their roster for any year. Both these cards are 1914 cards because of Elberfeld's leaving Brooklyn after the 1914 season.

Hoblitzell is shown in baseball reference to have 1000 plate appearences in 1914 for Toronto, Cincy, and Boston Nats, which seems incorrect. He played for Braves for 1915 and 1916 as well.

Anyone else feel free to chime in with miscut T213, questions or answers. Rob

[tedzan]

Hi Rob

Here's some interesting trivia regarding Ed Summers. His MLB career ended with Detroit in 1912.

Shown here is a 1914 COUPON (T213-2) card depicting Summers with the Brooklyn Tip Tops of the Federal League.

Definitely a No-No......Summers never pitched for this Brooklyn team.

However, Rudy Sommers was a pitcher for the Brooklyn Tip Tops in 1914. My guess is that American Lithographic mistook Summers for Sommers ? ?

What's your guess ?


........................……………. 1910 ........................................…………………. 1910 .......................................... 1910 ..……………………………………... 1914

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1910couponsummers.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/SummersPieSovCou2x50xx.jpg

……………………http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910COUPONWillett29b.jpg…………………….....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SummersPieSovCou2x25b.jpg




TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's another miscut of what I call the "Donlin Tribute" or "Donlin Stats" card. He has a regular 1914 issue of his last year with the Giants. His "New York" card which is harder to find. I believe the stats or tribute card to be issued after he retired and as Lew Lipset points out in his catalog, Donlin hit .300 or better for more than 7 seasons and was one of the best players not in the HOF.

This card does not tell us much about the year of distribution, because Rucker played for the Robins in 1914, 1915, and 1916, so his card on top could be from any of those...

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice one, Ted. I think the issuers may have used the T206 card of Ed to depict Rudy Sommers, so actually it should be, or could be T213-2 Summers (Sommers, Rudy). I think they did the same with Larry Chappelle with Cleveland. Maybe on purpose, or maybe an error. I need to look at the set some more and come up with other error cards. Rob

[nolemmings]

There are several players in T213-2 that are captioned for teams on which they did not play during 1914-1916. Looking at my spreadsheet, I see the following that fall in this group:
Bridwell-Nashville
Campbell, St. Louis Nat.
Geyer- St. Louis Nat.
Hoblitzell, Bos N.
Hummel, Brooklyn Fed
Murray, KC
Quinn, Buffalo Fed
Sweeney, Bill-- Boston AL (but went to Red Sox Spring training in 1915)
Sweeney, Jeff– Richmond (unknown Sweeney played for Richmond 1915) and
Warhop, St. Louis Nat.

Also, in addition to the Rudy Sommers noted, the Camnitz, Savannah card is probably Harry Camnitz, who pitched there in 1915, Hoffman Peoria is likely Izzy Hoffman, player/mgr there in 1915, and the Tim Jordan Fort Worth card is meant to cover a different player by that name who pitched there in 1914-1915.

[tedzan]

Hey Rob,

Is there a T213-2 Cincinnati version of Chase ?


……………………………. 1914 ..………...…………………………………………………………….. 1913 ………………………………………………... 1919 (T213-3)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1914COUPONChaseBuffalo50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T213x2x3blueChase50.jpg

. . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseBuffaloT213x25b.jpg . . . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213x2x3blueChase50b.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, I have not seen a Chase Cincy card. I suppose one could be possible. I have the 6 from the checklist...The three poses, Trophy, Port, and Throw each for Chicago and Buffalo.

Todd, thanks very much for that list. I looked into the team changes a few years ago, but I've lost my notes and need to re-learn much about the set.

I spent some time researching the career of Ed Sweeney. Sweeney has a lot of cards in the sets I collect. For some reason, the Hobby calls him "Jeff", not to be confused with Boston's Bill. The reference sites call him "Ed" with no mention of "Jeff" as a nickname.

Sweeney played from 1909-1915 for the Yankees/Highlanders. He played for the Pirates in 1919. Toledo in 1916. Could he have also played for the Richmond Climbers for 31 games hitting .181 and is the anonymous "Sweeney" on the roster?

Did the issuers use 5 year old card images for different players with similar names?
Also, on your list you have "Hoblitzell Boston Nat" did you mean Boston Amer., ot am I getting them confused? Rob

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is Ed Sweeney's T205 card. No mention of him being called "Jeff".

edit to add an old thread on this topic. A book called The Yankee encyclopedia refers to him as "Jeff"

www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=91661

[tedzan]

Hi Rob

Like you, I find it quite interesting that T213-2 cards actually provide us a pretty good idea of when American Litho issued certain
cards. For example, displayed here are Ames and Devore. The NY Giants traded both of these guys to Cincinnati on May 22, 1913.

Ames (Cincinnati) is shown here, and I think the T213-2 Devore (Cincinnati) card exists.

Subsequently, Ames was acquired by St Louis Nat. (July 24, 1915). I have seen a T213-2 Ames (St Louis Nat.) card.

Devore was acquired by the Philadelphia Phillies on Aug 11, 1913 (from Cinci.). His T213-2 card is shown here.

Devore retired from MLB in 1915....and became part-owner (and Player-Manager) of the Chillicothe Babes (Ohio Minor League team).
There is a T213-2 card of Devore with a Chillicothe caption.

Hey guys, let's explore some more of these T213-2 subjects who played on several teams during the 1913 - 1915 timeline of this set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/AmesDevoreT213x2.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[buymycards]

Here is Ames, St. Louis and Devore Chillicothe

Sorry about the scans. For better scans of my Coupon cards, click this link.

https://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=449

[tedzan]

Here is Ames, St. Louis and Devore Chillicothe

Sorry about the scans. For better scans of my Coupon cards, click this link.

https://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=449


Hi Rick

Thanks for posting your Ames and Devore cards.

Do you have (or have seen) a T213-2 Devore (Cincinnati) card ?


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[buymycards]

Hi Ted, no, I haven't seen a Devore Cincinnati and I don't think there is a Chase Cincinnati Type 2.

[GeoPoto]

https://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382733&stc=1&d=1579968539

[GeoPoto]

and a beautiful red background.
https://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382734&stc=1&d=1579969214

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice cards, y'all.

Ed Konetchy is a good example of a subject that helped early checklisters surmise that the set was released in three years, from 1914-1916. Konetchy played for the STL N. from 1907-1913, in 1914 he played for the PITT Nats., in 1915 he played for the PITT Feds., and in 1916 Boston nats. He has a card with a caption for those 3 teams. I don't think it would be impossible for "new" cards to show up in the future out of some Louisiana attic, that show cards that would indicate a 1913 release. I am not aware of any 1913 only cards now. Here are 2 of the 3 cards. I have the Pitt Nat, and will scan and post later, Rob.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's Ed Knonetchy, Pittsburgh Nat.

Also, 2 of the most commonly found cards from the T213-2 Coupon set are the McGraw portrait and glove at hip. They were probably triple-printed, released in the same format for 1914, 1915, and 1916...

[buymycards]

Here are 3 Mowrey cards, all in Cincy uniform with 3 different teams.

[tedzan]

Here's Ed Knonetchy, Pittsburgh Nat.

Also, 2 of the most commonly found cards from the T213-2 Coupon set are the McGraw portrait and glove at hip. They were probably triple-printed, released in the same format for 1914, 1915, and 1916...

Rob
I agree with you regarding this McGraw.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T213SchaeferMcGraw.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1914CouponSchaeferMcGraw.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[buymycards]

Here is Mowrey again, in 1919, still with the Cincy uniform but Brooklyn caption.

Mowrey's last year in Cincinnati was 1909. He played with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1914, the Pittsburgh Rebels in 1915, and with Brooklyn in 1916 and 1917. He didn't play in 1918 or in 1919 when this card was issued.

He played with St. Louis from 1909 through 1913, but Coupon didn't issue a Mowrey card with a St. Louis caption.

[buymycards]

Another mystery is Al Bridwell. He played for the St. Louis Terriers in 1914 and 1915, but I can't find any record of him playing for Nashville.

[RCMcKenzie]

Superb Mowrey run, Rick.

On Bridwell, I also looked at his stats, and did not see him on Nashville, nor did I see any players on Nashville that had a similar name. It could be a mistake, or it could be like the case of the T206 Foley White, Houston. There is no box score, or record of White playing for the Houston Buffaloes, but it's hard to believe they rendered up a card for him in a Houston uniform all by mistake. Speaaking of Houston, I learned today that Bridwell was the player/manager for the STL affiliate, Buffaloes in 1919. Which means that his 1919 TYPE 3 Coupon card is a Houston Buffaloes card, which is nice.


Also, I'm up to 166/185 with this Thomas "Phila". Not the best condition. You can tell it's a "Phila", b/c the "Philadelphia" version's typeset is further to the left...

[nolemmings]

The Bridwell card gives us some indication of when the 1916 card was printed, and explains the Nashville affiliation. I researched his 1916 status and saw that he was signed by Nashville as of the February 12, 1916 edition of The Sporting Life.https://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/mym101s/dupesothers/websize/bridwell_SL_19160212p6.JPG
It was also noted in the April 1, edition. Interestingly, Bridwell was listed as suspended by Nashville as of April 17, 1916 (perhaps he never reported?) as mentioned in the May 6 TSL, so that may explain why there is no record of him actually playing for the team. On May 14, 1916, he was acquired by Atlanta.
https://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/mym101s/dupesothers/websize/bridwell_SL_191600603.JPG
So it seems the printing of the 1916 t213-2 set would have been finished somewhere between February 6 and mid-May of that year.

[RCMcKenzie]

Great research, Todd. It certainly explains Bridwell's Nashville card and helps set a timeline for the 1916 print run or runs. Rob

[tedzan]

In the 1980's, when I started working on my first T206 set, I was not inclined to pay "big $$$$" for a T206 Demmitt (St Louis) card.
Instead, I acquired this T213-2 Demmitt as a "space filler" in my in my T206 set album.
The image is the same. The name (and color) of the team in the caption differs. So, I refer to this T213 card as a "poor-man's T206"
Demmitt :)

Chicago AL....circa April 17, 1914 - 1915.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DemmittWSox50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DemmittStLouisSGC.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[nolemmings]

The Sporting Life reported in its February 12, 1916 edition that Red Murray was released by the Cubs to Kansas City, a move that the player refused to recognize.https://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/mym101s/dupesothers/websize/murray_SL_19160212_p13.JPG
The following week’s edition states the National Assn agreed to his unconditional release, and the March 4, 1916 copy both reflects the release and lists him on the Kansas City roster. This supports a t213-2 card showing Murray with KC. Later in April a blurb in TSL states that the Toronto manager is trying to get him signed, and he does in fact playing there that season, suggesting that the T213-2 card was printed before the Toronto acquisition.

[nolemmings]

Here's another interesting card of Elberfeld of the Brooklyn Robins. He last played for them in 1914 and went to Chattanooga in 1915 and 1916, for which he also has a card. The card on top is Hoblitzell Boston Amer. I could not find him on their roster for any year. Both these cards are 1914 cards because of Elberfeld's leaving Brooklyn after the 1914 season.

Hoblitzell is shown in baseball reference to have 1000 plate appearences in 1914 for Toronto, Cincy, and Boston Nats, which seems incorrect. He played for Braves for 1915 and 1916 as well.

Anyone else feel free to chime in with miscut T213, questions or answers. Rob

I just re-read this post, and notice a couple of things. Rob, Dick Hoblitzell played for the Red Sox but never for Boston N.L.,so there is a mistake. However and interestingly (to me any anyway), Hoblitzell was not acquired by Boston from Cinci until July 16, 1914, so if he is appearing on an Elberfeld card with Brooklyn, who only played there in 1914, either there was a late printing in 1914 or the miscut card was printed before Elberfeld joined Chattanooga in April 1915. I'm guessing the former, since Elberfeld was released by Brooklyn well before he signed with Chattanooga. However, since Hoblitzell also has a t213-2 card with the Reds, that would mean there are two different printings from 1914.

[RCMcKenzie]

there are two different printings from 1914.

Thanks for all the info on Murray. Very interesting stuff. It makes set collecting more fun when I learn about the careers of the players.

In general, and anecdotally, from collecting the set, 1914 cards are the most commonly found. For example, if you find a T213-2 Frank Chance, it will most likely be his New York Portrait. For some reason, his New York batting card is as hard to find, as his 1916 LA Port & Batting cards.

I think you are right that 1914 was the year that they printed the most cards. I know there are a few 1914 only cards that are tough, I'll see if I can find some examples, likely not printed as often as say, Cobb Red Port. I would not be surprised to see a miscut Ty Cobb, that shows both cards as Cobb. I'll keep looking for miscut T213-2's.

Also, Ted, I have been waiting for that Demmitt to go up in price for many years, but the Polar Bear back keeps going way up in price. Rob

[tedzan]

.......... Also, Ted, I have been waiting for that Demmitt to go up in price for many years, but the Polar Bear back keeps going way up in price. Rob

This is very true, Rob. A nice T213-2 Demmitt currently sells for only $100 - 200. While the T206 Demmitt (St Louis) sells for several $1000's.


This T213-2 Demmitt was acquired many years ago for $40.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DemmittWSox50x.jpg





This T206 Demmitt was acquired back in the early 1990's for $250
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/demmitt.jpg
This T206 Demmitt was acquired several years ago for about $950.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DemmittStLouisSGC.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Leon]

Great thread and research (especially Todd).
Every now and then it's great to see some collaboration on team and other variations for our pre war sets. The only thing I can add is a pic of the latter of the series, in "collector" shape. :cool:

[RCMcKenzie]

I thought I would revive this thread to talk about Hooks Wiltse, as he has 6 cards in the T213-2 set, 3 portraits and 3 pitching. His easiest to find are his 1914 NY Giants cards, next are his 1915 Jersey City cards, and as Rick pointed out in another thread, his Brooklyn cards are the most difficult to find. I have 5/6, missing the Brooklyn portrait.

What's interesting about the Wiltse cards, is that T213-2 clearly had at least 2 print runs in 1915. This sabr bio shows that Wiltse started the season with Jersey City, and later in the season moved to Brooklyn.

www.sabr.org/bioproj/person/ce9bc9aa

[RCMcKenzie]

A quick follow-up about Hal Chase. Chase also has 6 cards in the set, Portrait, Trophy, and Throwing for the White Sox and Buffalo. His Chicago cards are a little more difficult to find, but not by much. What's interesting about this, is that it suggests that they produced more cards in 1914, than 1915 and 1916. This bio includes the story of Chase playing part of 1914 with Chicago, before moving to Buffalo in 1914-1915. As Ted pointed out earlier in the thread, Chase should have T213-2's from 1916 showing him on Cincy, but none are known.

www.halchase.com/biography/

[nolemmings]

Good catch on Wiltse being part of two 1915 print runs-- he not only pitched but managed in Jersey City that year. As for Chase, it is quite possible he had no 1916 card because he did not join the Reds until the first week of April that season, by which time the 1916 cards may already have been printed. Incidentally, this might also explain why he had no m101 cards from that year either.

[RCMcKenzie]

Good info, Todd. Here is more evidence that the print run for the 1916 cards was early in the year, prior to the start of the season. Reulbach is shown with Pittsburgh. From this sabr bio..."The Pittsburgh Pirates acquired the rights to the big right-hander (Reulbach) in the Federal League dispersal draft, but sold him to the Boston Braves just before the start of the 1916 season." So, the card must have been printed between the date of the draft and the start of the season. www.sabr.org/bioproj/person/5aceecce

[tedzan]

I thought I would revive this thread to talk about Hooks Wiltse, as he has 6 cards in the T213-2 set, 3 portraits and 3 pitching. His easiest to find are his 1914 NY Giants cards, next are his 1915 Jersey City cards, and as Rick pointed out in another thread, his Brooklyn cards are the most difficult to find. I have 5/6, missing the Brooklyn portrait.

What's interesting about the Wiltse cards, is that T213-2 clearly had at least 2 print runs in 1915. This sabr bio shows that Wiltse started the season with Jersey City, and later in the season moved to Brooklyn.

www.sabr.org/bioproj/person/ce9bc9aa


Rob.....very interesting....great research.

Regarding the Wiltse (pitching) card, here are two bits of information with respect to its T206 version that may interest you.

1st.....Wiltse's T206 card is in the group of AB 460/UZIT "twins" that were issued at the very tail-end of the T206 production cycle at American
Lithographic (circa Feb-March 1911). So, given here is a starting timeline for this card prior to its T213-2 issue dates.
This date is evident in an ATC ledger to this effect. Refer to Post #97.. https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2

2nd..Wiltse's T206 card has a trivial printing omission. In the caption, the DOT after the "Y" in "N. Y." is missing (no other T206 has this error).


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460WiltsePitchingXx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/UZITWiltse50.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206WiltsePitchingCaption50x.jpg
.https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460WiltsePitchingXbx.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/UZITWiltse50b.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[RCMcKenzie]

I think the Wiltse pitching is a great card. I had not noticed the missing period after Y. Here's a Tolstoi missing the period and a T213-2 NY and T215-2 for comparison. I don't have the T215-1 Wiltse, but I'm guessing the caption is the same as the T215-2 like these T215 1 and 2 Fords...