Glory of Their Times

[kevinlenane]

For any of those people in major metro areas - with long drives - The Glory of Their Times Audible book is really incredible. I thought it would just be narration of the book but it's the actual interviews aka the audio from the documentary and it's pretty incredible content. I'm only 5 or 6 interviews in and I will say, to reference the "Hated" list - Cobb is certainly mentioned universally as a primary source to be a such an unpleasant solitary figure by primary sources. There is one interview with a disabled ball player living in basically a hostel/motel that is pretty heartbreaking but on the whole it is filled with wonderful and funny stories including one about a fake/lucky charm pitcher who came out of the stands. Not sure if it's all true but it's wonderful nonetheless.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The disabled player was Hans Lobert. I believe he had been hit by a car shortly before he met Larry Ritter. Hans was living in a motel and hadn't been doing well financially. Larry bought him a TV so he could watch games. I actually own Hans' copy of the book, signed by him and also inscribed by Larry to Hans.

[todeen]

I own a letter from Bucky Walters sent to Ritter referencing Bill McKechnie. I put together a 1935-1942 Cincinnati Reds archive, and that was a good letter to add.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bbcard1]

For any of those people in major metro areas - with long drives - The Glory of Their Times Audible book is really incredible. I thought it would just be narration of the book but it's the actual interviews aka the audio from the documentary and it's pretty incredible content. I'm only 5 or 6 interviews in and I will say, to reference the "Hated" list - Cobb is certainly mentioned universally as a primary source to be a such an unpleasant solitary figure by primary sources. There is one interview with a disabled ball player living in basically a hostel/motel that is pretty heartbreaking but on the whole it is filled with wonderful and funny stories including one about a fake/lucky charm pitcher who came out of the stands. Not sure if it's all true but it's wonderful nonetheless.'

wonderful audio book. Wore the grooves out on mine.

[kevinlenane]

Do you remember the story about the guy who came out of the stands and was basically a crazy person who thought he could pitch? He has this crazy wind up and he wound up travelling with the team and was their lucky charm "winning" them the pennant for a few years and then he died and they lost the next year? He had a great nickname I can't recall but I can search the audio book for text :)

'

wonderful audio book. Wore the grooves out on mine.

[kevinlenane]

Found it - it's one of the first stories - Charles Victory Faust

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Faust

[T206Collector]

You can hear a good deal of it for free here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Pl8JI4pyg

[btcarfagno]

The disabled player was Hans Lobert. I believe he had been hit by a car shortly before he met Larry Ritter. Hans was living in a motel and hadn't been doing well financially. Larry bought him a TV so he could watch games. I actually own Hans' copy of the book, signed by him and also inscribed by Larry to Hans.

That is awesome! I own Rube Marquard's copy of the book! Signed to him by Larry Ritter.

[JollyElm]

For the life of me I can't figure out what you are trying to say here...

I'm only 5 or 6 interviews in and I will say, to reference the "Hated" list - Cobb is certainly mentioned universally as a primary source to be a such an unpleasant solitary figure by primary sources.

[Bigdaddy]

We all owe Larry Ritter a big 'Thanks' for writing this book and preserving forever the stories that these players told.

I hold both 'Glory' and 'The Boys of Summer' up as the canon of baseball literacy.

Thank you Larry and Roger.

[Fred]

We all owe Larry Ritter a big 'Thanks' for writing this book and preserving forever the stories that these players told.

I hold both 'Glory' and 'The Boys of Summer' up as the canon of baseball literacy.

Thank you Larry and Roger.

Right up there with Ball 4! :p

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I love Roger's book, but his prose tended to be condescending towards those he was writing about. This has bothered me increasingly as the years pass. Golenbock's "Bums" is the perfect, inoffensive companion piece to the sometimes insulting Kahn book.

[Hankphenom]

As the co-producer/editor of the audio version of "The Glory of Their Times," it's always great to hear how much people enjoy listening to it. If you're interested in learning how it all came about, here's a Net54 link with the "story of Glory."

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=260869&highlight=Glory+of+their+times

[gonzo]

I mostly played catcher when I played ball, so when I first read The Glory of Their Times, I was fascinated by what the catchers of the day had to say.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a Paul Thompson photo of George Gibson's hands that went perfectly with one memorable passage.

[Case12]

We all owe Larry Ritter a big 'Thanks' for writing this book and preserving forever the stories that these players told.

I hold both 'Glory' and 'The Boys of Summer' up as the canon of baseball literacy.

Thank you Larry and Roger.

+1

[GeoPoto]

"Fifty-nine in '84" talks a lot about how brutal catching was. That was a decade before most of Ritter's guys got started, but when Radbourn agreed to pitch all of the Gray's games, it meant his "battery mate" had to catch them. Back then, each team had two pitchers and two catchers, but they didn't mix them together. It was grueling for Radbourn, but arguably worse for his catcher. And Radbourn got paid and set free.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[carlsonjok]

Funny that you should post this. I just bought a copy of this book in a used book store when I was back visiting family in Ohio. Hearing about it, I'm sorry now that I decided to read a book about the history of Great Lakes freighters on the flight home.

[JollyElm]

Funny that you should post this. I just bought a copy of this book in a used book store when I was back visiting family in Ohio. Hearing about it, I'm sorry now that I decided to read a book about the history of Great Lakes freighters on the flight home.

"The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee..."

[todeen]

"The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down

Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee..."LOL. Too witty!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Gary Dunaier]

I'm only 5 or 6 interviews in and I will say, to reference the "Hated" list - Cobb is certainly mentioned universally as a primary source to be a such an unpleasant solitary figure by primary sources.

For the life of me I can't figure out what you are trying to say here...

I think he's referring to the "50 Most Hated Players of All Time" (http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277390) thread elsewhere on Net 54.

[JollyElm]

I think he's referring to the "50 Most Hated Players of All Time" (http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277390) thread elsewhere on Net 54.

No, I'm speaking literally. Is he saying he should be considered a hated player or should NOT be considered a hated player? The statement I quoted is baffling, especially the multiple uses of "primary source(s)" in the same sentence. He was "mentioned universally," but how? In a bad way? In a good way?? Huh???

[Phil68]

No, I'm speaking literally. Is he saying he should be considered a hated player or should NOT be considered a hated player? The statement I quoted is baffling, especially the multiple uses of "primary source(s)" in the same sentence. He was "mentioned universally," but how? In a bad way? In a good way?? Huh???

Basically a Harvard way of saying "People that ought to know Cobb found him to be a lonely prick"
...That's the jiist I got, anyway.

[Mark17]

Basically a Harvard way of saying "People that ought to know Cobb found him to be a lonely prick"
...That's the jiist I got, anyway.

In The Glory of their Times, read what Joe Wood said about Cobb. He thought Ty was a fair player, not dirty. As to Ty being lonely, is that a reason to hate him or have empathy for him? He grew up in the south not long after they lost the Civil War, went to play for a team in the far north, had his mother kill his father under mysterious circumstances..... of course he felt like an outsider.

During his playing days, Cobb was competing (fighting) against those players. But after he retired, he often sent money, quietly, to guys who were struggling financially. To try to judge Cobb you first have to make a serious effort to understand him, which isn't easy.

[Hankphenom]

In The Glory of their Times, read what Joe Wood said about Cobb. He thought Ty was a fair player, not dirty. As to Ty being lonely, is that a reason to hate him or have empathy for him? He grew up in the south not long after they lost the Civil War, went to play for a team in the far north, had his mother kill his father under mysterious circumstances..... of course he felt like an outsider.

During his playing days, Cobb was competing (fighting) against those players. But after he retired, he often sent money, quietly, to guys who were struggling financially. To try to judge Cobb you first have to make a serious effort to understand him, which isn't easy.

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

[Phil68]

My opinion of Cobb is, essentially, one of like humanity.
I never met, associated with or had to resolve any conflicts with him. Therefore, I'm not entitled to any opinion. My opinion of like humanity is also limited where Cobb is concerned because I know very few that have been millionaires and brilliant--as Cobb, undeniably, was.
I do think his longevity and sound relationships with the majority of his teammates, opponents and business associates paint him favorably.
In addition, as we learn everyday, people are jealous & petty and seldom look at another person's point of view.
This empirical fact, alone, would mount "common knowledge" of Cobb being an asshole to anyone he didn't comply with.

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

[Hankphenom]

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

[byrone]

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

[Hankphenom]

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.

[Phil68]

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

I don't follow. What someone thinks of me is irrelevant.
I can get along with them if I choose to.

[Hankphenom]

I don't follow. What someone thinks of me is irrelevant.
I can get along with them if I choose to.

If you say so, and good for you.

[btcarfagno]

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.


Cobb's grandfather, with whom he was very close, prided himself claiming he was the only person in his town who voted for Lincoln. Cobb's father was a Democrat but in his short time in government work showed many times to be a friend of the black man and was often at odds with those who were openly virulently bigoted. So Cobb came from a lineage of men who bucked the trends on the issue of race during their lifetimes.

To me Cobb had an equal opportunity temper. White men and black men were on the wrong side of it.

And the story of him beating on a black groundskeepers wife and also the groundskeeper himself may have been fictional as it may have been made up by a teammate who was working with new manager Hughie Jennings to find a way to get Cobb off the team as Jennings feared he was "bad for team harmony". There were no other witnesses to the event. The two who he allegedly beat up were never approached by the media of the time. Cobb immediately denied it ever happened.

[Mark17]

Didn't Cobb have great things to say about some black players, like Willie Mays? A racist probably wouldn't do that.

Tris Speaker also came from the deep south (Texas) and was probably a racist in his younger days, as was typical of southerners born that soon after the war. But in his later years he was noted for mentoring Larry Doby.

If Cobb and Speaker, coming from the south to play in far northern cities, brought some of their regional prejudices with them, they gradually grew with the nation to become much more accepting of blacks. I would say, from what I've read, that they were no more racist, and probably less so, than most of the people in their respective home towns.

[kevinlenane]

JollyElm - I was just trying of highlight that his contemporaries describe him difficult and solitary. I should have said that but alas, writing is not my strong suit. Valid beef! :)


For the life of me I can't figure out what you are trying to say here...

[Hankphenom]

Didn't Cobb have great things to say about some black players, like Willie Mays? A racist probably wouldn't do that.

Tris Speaker also came from the deep south (Texas) and was probably a racist in his younger days, as was typical of southerners born that soon after the war. But in his later years he was noted for mentoring Larry Doby.

If Cobb and Speaker, coming from the south to play in far northern cities, brought some of their regional prejudices with them, they gradually grew with the nation to become much more accepting of blacks. I would say, from what I've read, that they were no more racist, and probably less so, than most of the people in their respective home towns.

All good points. When I called Cobb a racist--and as I said, I'm willing to stand corrected on that--I was referring to the younger man, and drew on the comments of his teammates on GOTT. Of course, the country changed dramatically in its racial attitudes over his lifetime, and it would surprising if many of the old-time players didn't change also. For example, I don't know how you could call the U.S. Armed Forces, which remained segregated until 1948, or many of the nation's schools that stayed that way into the 1960s, anything but racist based on those policies. But eventually they changed, the country changed, and people changed. I will ask again what concrete documentation was discovered in the research for his many biographies, and what does it point to in the racial attitudes of the younger Ty Cobb? I did a page or two in my biography of my grandfather on the racial issue and what little I could find where it impacted his careeer, mostly based on a handful of exhibition games he pitched against black teams and his fulsome praise of Josh Gibson after seeing him play in a spring training game in Florida in 1939. What is there on Cobb from original sources, I'd like to know?

[byrone]

All good points. When I called Cobb a racist--and as I said, I'm willing to stand corrected on that--I was referring to the younger man, and drew on the comments of his teammates on GOTT. Of course, the country changed dramatically in its racial attitudes over his lifetime, and it would surprising if many of the old-time players didn't change also. For example, I don't know how you could call the U.S. Armed Forces, which remained segregated until 1948, or many of the nation's schools that stayed that way into the 1960s, anything but racist based on those policies. But eventually they changed, the country changed, and people changed. I will ask again what concrete documentation was discovered in the research for his many biographies, and what does it point to in the racial attitudes of the younger Ty Cobb? I did a page or two in my biography of my grandfather on the racial issue and what little I could find where it impacted his careeer, mostly based on a handful of exhibition games he pitched against black teams and his fulsome praise of Josh Gibson after seeing him play in a spring training game in Florida in 1939. What is there on Cobb from original sources, I'd like to know?

Here are a few accounts:


But a lot of people have made assumptions about Cobb based on the date of his birth and the location, which was 1886 in Royston, Georgia or near Royston, Georgia, and so people just assume that he must have been a racist. But what they don't know — and what I found out — is that he descends from a long line of abolitionists. His great-grandfather was a preacher who preached against slavery and was run out of town. His grandfather refused to fight in the Confederate army because of the slavery issue. His father was a state senator who spoke up for his black constituents and broke up a lynch mob in town and had a very short political career because of it.

[Cobb] never said anything about race until 1952 when he told the Sporting News that "the Negro has the right to play professional sports," he said, "and who's to say he has not."


https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2015/05/16/ty-cobb-book-charles-leerhsen


I have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population.

Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist



When he began work on a new biography, “Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty” (Simon & Schuster), Charles Leerhsen expected to uncover fresh depictions of the player as a racist and a spikes-sharpening attacker of opposing infielders. If Cobb was the meanest man in baseball flannels, additional animosity would not be difficult to find.

“I thought I’d find new examples of monstrous monstrosity,” Leerhsen said in an interview last week. “Instead, I found a very different person than the myth. I was a little disappointed at first. He’s more normal than I thought.”

Leerhsen’s research found neither a saint nor a Rabelaisian character like Babe Ruth. Sure, Cobb could be unpleasant and overly sensitive. He had a temper and fought with his share of people, including a fan who heckled him mercilessly. But Leerhsen did not unearth a bigot primed to attack black men or a brandisher of carefully filed daggers beneath his shoes.

“It’s a warts-and-all biography,” Leerhsen said, laughing. “But they’re warts, not tumors.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/sports/baseball/removing-the-fangs-from-ty-cobbs-notoriety.html

[Hankphenom]

That's an impressive ancestry of anti-racists, for sure, but is Ty known to have followed their lead in any fashion? 1952 seems a little late to be standing up for the right of blacks to play in the majors, if that's his first comment about it for the record. Is there any indication of Cobb having played in exhibitions against black teams, as so many white players did in those days? And the lack of documentation of his racial attitudes among Leerhsen's 40,000 articles doesn't surprise me, I would guess that to be true of most major leaguers of the era, it just wasn't something they would be asked about or would want to discuss during that time. I realize I'm playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate here, but it seems like pretty thin gruel to chew on so far, especially when balanced against Crawford's searing anecdotes on the GOTT tapes. Sam and Ty weren't close, to be sure, but I'm dubious that Crawford would make this stuff up to Ritter at that point in his life to get back at Cobb, and then there is Jones's corroboration and expansion on much of what Crawford had to say.

[byrone]

That's an impressive ancestry of anti-racists, for sure, but is Ty known to have followed their lead in any fashion? 1952 seems a little late to be standing up for the right of blacks to play in the majors, if that's his first comment about it for the record. Is there any indication of Cobb having played in exhibitions against black teams, as so many white players did in those days? And the lack of documentation of his racial attitudes among Leerhsen's 40,000 articles doesn't surprise me, I would guess that to be true of most major leaguers of the era, it just wasn't something they would be asked about or would want to discuss during that time. I realize I'm playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate here, but it seems like pretty thin gruel to chew on so far, especially when balanced against Crawford's searing anecdotes on the GOTT tapes. Sam and Ty weren't close, to be sure, but I'm dubious that Crawford would make this stuff up to Ritter at that point in his life to get back at Cobb, and then there is Jones's corroboration and expansion on much of what Crawford had to say.


My take on Sam Crawford from the GOTT is that he was more of a "Ty Cobb" than Cobb himself. Loner, curmudgeonly, jealous, etc.

As Crawford said, "Cobb “came up with an antagonistic attitude, which in his mind turned any little razzing into a life-or-death struggle,” Crawford recounted for Lawrence Ritter in The Glory of their Times years later. “He came up from the South, you know, and he was still fighting the Civil War. As far as he was concerned, we were all damn Yankees before he even met us.”

Little razzing indeed. Do you recall what they did to Cobb?

"The pretty thin gruel to chew on" would be calling someone a racist without evidence.

Regardless, no one should be called "racist" without strong evidence showing such.

[Zach Wheat]

Funny that you should post this. I just bought a copy of this book in a used book store when I was back visiting family in Ohio. Hearing about it, I'm sorry now that I decided to read a book about the history of Great Lakes freighters on the flight home.

It is one of my favorite audio books...note the audio version has different content than the printed books. I believe some of the interviews were shortened for clarity.

When Jimmy Austin talks, you really get a feel for how much love he had for the game. My favorite discussions were probably with Rube Marquard and Fred Snodgrass were probably my favorites.

Z

[Hankphenom]

Little razzing indeed. Do you recall what they did to Cobb?

"The pretty thin gruel to chew on" would be calling someone a racist without evidence.

Regardless, no one should be called "racist" without strong evidence showing such.

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

[Hankphenom]

It is one of my favorite audio books...note the audio version has different content than the printed books. I believe some of the interviews were shortened for clarity.

When Jimmy Austin talks, you really get a feel for how much love he had for the game. My favorite discussions were probably with Rube Marquard and Fred Snodgrass were probably my favorites.

Z

Back to the tapes, thank God. The five hours on the CDs are HEAVILY edited from the hundred or so hours of original tapes. That took a lot of work, as you can read about in the link I provided for the story of the making of the audio set. As for favorites, every time Neal and I had finished the edit of a new player for the set, we said to each, "That's my new favorite!" They're all great, in my not-so-humble opinion. Ironically, the one interview on the set Larry didn't like was Jimmy Austin, in fact he wanted us to take Jimmy off the finished product, a request we ignored after agonizing consideration. We loved his interview, and eventually Ritter came around to, also.

[byrone]

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

[byrone]

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

From Davy Jones' NY Times obituary


In an interview in 1970, Mr. Jones told how he spearheaded a strike in 1912 involving the centerfielder, met with club owners to patch things up and then helped to organize players’ fraternity, the forerunner to the present Major League Baseball Players Association.

“We were in New York and a fellow was insulting Cobb,” Mr. Jones said. “I told Cobb that if he didn't punch him in the nose then I would. Cobb went up there and gave the man a beating,” he said. Cobb was suspended and fined $500. Mr. Jones said that when Cobb had not been reinstated when the team moved to Philadelphia, he talked the Detroit players into walking out. They refused to play until Cobb was reinstated.

He was reinstated and league officials approved a rule allowing players the right to ask that tormentors bi ejected from ball parks.

[Hankphenom]

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!

[btcarfagno]

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it merely perpetuates the unfounded talking point that he was "constantly fighting the civil war". This connotes that his pugilistic attitudes were simply a product of his Southern upbringing. Just because Sam Crawford said it and many newspapers of the time said it does not make it so. That is way too simplistic and lazy for this exceedingly complicated man. "He is a Southerner and he is combative therefore he"... X y and z. Sorry not buying it. The revisionist history you describe is what has been written about Cobb since he arrived in Detroit. He was very hard to understand and frequently played into what was written about him during his playing career so as to use it to his advantage on the field of play. The press was all too eager and lazy to oblige.

And again, the mention of Cobb and "racist" together simply continues another lazy talking point that is unproven and actually contradicts much of the known facts about his life. What we know as fact shows that his lineage is that of Southerners who were sympathetic to the cause of blacks, that his quotes show a man supportive of the integration of baseball, and his actions show a great financial support of those less fortunate of all races. As you say, it is easy to show most all people from that era as being racist, especially using today's definition of the term. But he was certainty no moreso than the general public at large, and the facts show that he was likely less so.

The revisionist history is what Al Stump and other authors have done to his legacy. It's a lazy way of looking at a complicated man. Certainty no saint as you say. Hard to know and hard to like by many. But he obviously was also misunderstood even by many of those closest to him such as Sam Crawford who said in the Ritter tapes that he hadn't a friend in baseball. That is incorrect to the extreme and is contradicted by others on the tapes as well. So as to these firsthand accounts of Crawford and Jones which seem to be perhaps a bit clouded by personal feelings of animosity, possible jealousy, and the decades since the events had happened by the time they were interviewed by Ritter...always with a grain of salt.

[Case12]

Taken all together - Cobb was mean, but not evil....as such, it made him great....

[byrone]

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!


Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

[Hankphenom]

Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

[Mark17]

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

Since you are trying to prove a negative - that Cobb was not a racist, then you are making that point with your words, bolded above. If Cobb is accused of being a racist, yet after all the letters, interviews, etc. it is still not established, then odds are strong it is not there.

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

[Hankphenom]

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

[Mark17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzbJn2UAoIs

Compelling case for Cobb being a non-racist.

[Mark17]

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

Take a look at the link I posted. If you could personally confirm some of the assertions made - that Cobb was quoted as saying blacks should be able to play in the Majors, and that he personally attended and threw out the first pitch in some Negro League games, and then sat in the dugout with players, would that be enough for you to conclude Cobb was definitely NOT a racist?

If so, apparently those events are documented somewhere. Perhaps the author includes his original sources within his book, or maybe you could contact him directly.

[Bicem]

For what it's worth, there was a letter written by Cobb (I think early 1920's if I recall) to a friend that was on eBay for a long time. In this letter, Cobb was talking about a piece of land he thought his friend should purchase. There was someone (who was black) that said the land was great hunting territory. When referencing this gentleman Cobb referred to him as "a Negro" which of course was very common practice at the time and he doesn't say anything negative about him (just how he said it was good hunting land). I would think if Cobb was truly the racist monster that he's made out to be, that he probably would have used another word to describe the man.

[btcarfagno]

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

not sure if I am remembering correctly regarding the "Glory" tapes...definitely Davy Jones...not sure about Sam Crawford...but the supposed incident between Cobb and the groundskeeper's wife (and subsequently Boss Schmidt). The only two people who know whether that story is true or not are Schmidt and Cobb. Schmidt claimed that it happened. Cobb denied it. Press ran with Schmidt's story but did no follow up with the groundskeeper or his wife. So if teammates are retelling this story, they are doing so without firsthand knowledge based on what Schmidt said happened. It is worth noting that Hughie Jennings was about to begin his first year as manager of the Tigers at the time, and he was actively trying to get rid of Cobb due to his being a "disruption" for the team. Hugh Fullerton would later write that Jennings used Schnidt to engineer a "gentle frame up" of Cobb...to make Cobb look worse to Frank Navin who had no intention of trading Cobb.

Just some food for thought.

[Hankphenom]

Take a look at the link I posted. If you could personally confirm some of the assertions made - that Cobb was quoted as saying blacks should be able to play in the Majors, and that he personally attended and threw out the first pitch in some Negro League games, and then sat in the dugout with players, would that be enough for you to conclude Cobb was definitely NOT a racist?

If so, apparently those events are documented somewhere. Perhaps the author includes his original sources within his book, or maybe you could contact him directly.

If Cobb threw out the first pitch at a single Negro League game, and/or sat in the dugout with the players--things I've never heard before--that would do it for me! Just attending Negro Leagues might make a strong enough case. I told you I have suspended judgement on the matter, and I meant that. I was wrong to take Crawford's recollections on the tapes and what I thought was common wisdom and turn it into such an accusation. But don't any of the recent books take the matter head on and resolve it with research? Don't any of you who are so interested in the matter--which I am not any more, frankly--have the results of that research to point to? How can this still be a matter for debate? I don't get it.

[Hankphenom]

For what it's worth, there was a letter written by Cobb (I think early 1920's if I recall) to a friend that was on eBay for a long time. In this letter, Cobb was talking about a piece of land he thought his friend should purchase. There was someone (who was black) that said the land was great hunting territory. When referencing this gentleman Cobb referred to him as "a Negro" which of course was very common practice at the time and he doesn't say anything negative about him (just how he said it was good hunting land). I would think if Cobb was truly the racist monster that he's made out to be, that he probably would have used another word to describe the man.

Sorry, Jeff, but that's some pretty "thin gruel" on which to hang the answer to an important question about such a significant figure in the game's history. And I could see if cutting both ways: yes, to his credit he didn't use the common pejorative, but why did he feel it necessary to mention that the opinion about the land came from a Negro? To discount this man's judgement, perhaps, as in "take it with a grain of salt?" Why else would you mention his race?

[Mark17]

If Cobb threw out the first pitch at a single Negro League game, and/or sat in the dugout with the players--things I've never heard before--that would do it for me! Just attending Negro Leagues might make a strong enough case.

Great, then why not read Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty, and then independently verify those claims. Considering all the time and effort you've put into TGOTT, why not put in just a little more, in fairness to Ty.



I told you I have suspended judgement on the matter, and I meant that. I was wrong to take Crawford's recollections on the tapes and what I thought was common wisdom and turn it into such an accusation. But don't any of the recent books take the matter head on and resolve it with research? Don't any of you who are so interested in the matter--which I am not any more, frankly--have the results of that research to point to? How can this still be a matter for debate? I don't get it.

Yes, the book Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty by Charles Leerhsen. Again, instead of going by popular opinion, which led you astray the first time, I would suggest you not just read this book and consider it the final word, but confirm the facts he presents for yourself. After that, I'd appreciate knowing what your ultimate conclusion is on the matter.

[Bicem]

Sorry, Jeff, but that's some pretty "thin gruel" on which to hang the answer to an important question about such a significant figure in the game's history. And I could see if cutting both ways: yes, to his credit he didn't use the common pejorative, but why did he feel it necessary to mention that the opinion about the land came from a Negro? To discount this man's judgement, perhaps, as in "take it with a grain of salt?" Why else would you mention his race?

Definitely thin gruel (great term!), which is why I prefaced with for what it's worth. Just thought it was interesting.

Like others have said, the research done in A Terrible Beauty is enough for me.

[Hankphenom]

Great, then why not read Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty, and then independently verify those claims. Considering all the time and effort you've put into TGOTT, why not put in just a little more, in fairness to Ty.





Yes, the book Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty by Charles Leerhsen. Again, instead of going by popular opinion, which led you astray the first time, I would suggest you not just read this book and consider it the final word, but confirm the facts he presents for yourself. After that, I'd appreciate knowing what your ultimate conclusion is on the matter.

No problem, I will read the book at some point. If he's done enough research to firmly refute the apparent misconception on my part (and many others) that Ty was a racist, that's a great thing for Cobb, his family, and his many admirers. It's even more admirable considering, as I said before, that I have no problem calling the country racist during that time, and nobody will ever shake me from that assertion--I remember seeing "white" and "colored" signs in D.C. as late as my high school years. Earlier in the discussion, I mentioned that my grandfather was friends with Cobb, and you won't find much bad about him in my book. I have no ax to grind against him, and never did.

[Kenny Cole]

That's an impressive ancestry of anti-racists, for sure, but is Ty known to have followed their lead in any fashion? 1952 seems a little late to be standing up for the right of blacks to play in the majors, if that's his first comment about it for the record. Is there any indication of Cobb having played in exhibitions against black teams, as so many white players did in those days? And the lack of documentation of his racial attitudes among Leerhsen's 40,000 articles doesn't surprise me, I would guess that to be true of most major leaguers of the era, it just wasn't something they would be asked about or would want to discuss during that time. I realize I'm playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate here, but it seems like pretty thin gruel to chew on so far, especially when balanced against Crawford's searing anecdotes on the GOTT tapes. Sam and Ty weren't close, to be sure, but I'm dubious that Crawford would make this stuff up to Ritter at that point in his life to get back at Cobb, and then there is Jones's corroboration and expansion on much of what Crawford had to say.

As to playing against black players, yes. That is clearly true, at least for 5 games. In 1910, the Tigers went to Cuba for an exhibition series. Cobb and Crawford were both there, as numerous photos attest. Punch Cigarros issued an incredibly rare set of baseball cards including the Tigers team, one of which was Cobb. Other cards in the set depict players from the various Cuban teams, including negro league stars such as Pop Lloyd, Grant Johnson, Jose Mendez and Bruce Petway.

There are box scores showing that Cobb played at least 5 games in Cuba. In one game, Negro League catcher Bruce Petway threw him out stealing at least once and threw him out bunting at least once. Petway is reputed to have actually thrown him out 3 times, although I don't know that to be true. Lloyd, Johnson and Petway all out-hit him there and he is also reputed never to have played against black players again. But those 5 games can be substantiated for what its worth insofar as this discussion is concerned.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I have a degree is history and have been researching baseball history for over 40 years. The first rule I have found that most historians agree on is that when you have a large sample of first hand accounts they out weigh revised history.

We all have our favorites in baseball. I personally have read every possible source on Ruth and had the chance to visit with Bill Dickey many years ago to ask him about the Babe. I find Ruth to be very confusing, how intelligent was he, how out of control was he? I still have no firm opinion.

With that said, no player has had more "current revisionist history" printed about him than Cobb. There seems to be a "he couldn't have been as bad as they said about him" attitude. I lean on the first hand accounts which seem to say that yes he might not have been a great human being. A great player yes and as collectors we all see his cards rising. But?

[btcarfagno]

I have a degree is history and have been researching baseball history for over 40 years. The first rule I have found that most historians agree on is that when you have a large sample of first hand accounts they out weigh revised history.

We all have our favorites in baseball. I personally have read every possible source on Ruth and had the chance to visit with Bill Dickey many years ago to ask him about the Babe. I find Ruth to be very confusing, how intelligent was he, how out of control was he? I still have no firm opinion.

With that said, no player has had more "current revisionist history" printed about him than Cobb. There seems to be a "he couldn't have been as bad as they said about him" attitude. I lean on the first hand accounts which seem to say that yes he might not have been a great human being. A great player yes and as collectors we all see his cards rising. But?

True with regard to personal opinions and firsthand accounts of actual events. Not true of second or third hand accounts. At all.

Also, when what has been written about a person over the years has been demonstrably and provably false and misleading, what are we to think? We obviously cannot throw it all away and say that Cobb was a saint and just misunderstood, but it is equally vapid to simply not pay attention when new information comes to light.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Totally agree Tom but we have to be careful as to defining "what new has come to life."

[btcarfagno]

Totally agree Tom but we have to be careful as to defining "what new has come to life."

Absolutely. In a Terrible Beauty Leerhsen does have a good amount of research to back up his statements regarding what is fact, what is fiction, and what is a 50/50 he said/he said type of situation. You also must be able to separate some leaps of faith that he does make with regard to opinions on certain matters. As with much in the field of history, there is a lot of "if "this" is true and "that" is true, it is reasonable to assume that "this" is also true". It may be and it may not be the case. There are definitely a fair amount of reasonable assumptions going on in this work. However, the research he does regarding what was always assumed to be 100% fact that turns out to either be complete myth or at best a he said/he said 50/50 is enough to make the findings of this book shed some new light on the situation.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Well said

[Case12]

I grew up in the deep South Georgia in the 60's. My family back to the Civil War. Concept of racism is different back then than today. Back then, culture and color segregation was not seen as racist. It was normal. Racist then was if you really hated the negros. So, taken into context of history, did Cobb hate negros?.... If he didn't, he was normal like most all other of us white folk...

[Hankphenom]

I grew up in the deep South Georgia in the 60's. My family back to the Civil War. Concept of racism is different back then than today. Back then, culture and color segregation was not seen as racist. It was normal. Racist then was if you really hated the negros. So, taken into context of history, did Cobb hate negros?.... If he didn't, he was normal like most all other of us white folk...

Not really getting this. So during slavery, because it was the norm and the law, you wouldn't call the slave states racist?

[btcarfagno]

Not really getting this. So during slavery, because it was the norm and the law, you wouldn't call the slave states racist?

Not sure I understand that one entirely either.

But to your point regarding Cobb using the term "Negro" to refer to someone in a letter that he wrote, of course that is a racist thing to do, without question. It was also a fairly normal thing to do back then. So I do not think that the point is whether or not Cobb was racist or not. It is fairly clear that he was. The question is more along the lines of whether or not he was a virulent racist as he has been portrayed for decades. The evidence may be pointing to that not being the case. It seems more likely that he was as racist as the everyday person of his time, which, granted, by today's standards is quite alarming.

[byrone]

Not really getting this. So during slavery, because it was the norm and the law, you wouldn't call the slave states racist?

The "slave states". Yeah, racist

All the people of those states? No, not all were racist.

[Hankphenom]

The question is more along the lines of whether or not he was a virulent racist as he has been portrayed for decades. The evidence may be pointing to that not being the case. It seems more likely that he was as racist as the everyday person of his time, which, granted, by today's standards is quite alarming.

Was he portrayed routinely as virulently racist? By whom? My impression in that regard was formed mostly by Crawford on the "Glory" tapes, I think, and as I've said, that doesn't seem to me now nearly enough to have drawn any kind of conclusion in that regard. My only other deep dive into Cobb was reading the Alexander book back in the day, and I can't remember what he wrote about it. I had always thought of Cobb mostly as quick-tempered, a brawler, with a fierce drive to win at all costs, confirmed both contemporaneously and in later accounts by my research. Other than that, my impression of his racial attitudes would probably have been similar to comments here to the effect that like most people he was a product of his time and environment and it would have been surprising and admirable had he NOT held the attitudes prevalent in those. Now I'm seeing some evidence that the latter might indeed be the case, and I hope that turns out to be true.

[Hankphenom]

The "slave states". Yeah, racist. All the people of those states? No, not all were racist.

Agree 100%.

[rhettyeakley]

Came across this again in my stuff while searching for something and thought it would be a good addition to the original thread here...

http://starsofthediamond.com/leachglory.jpg
http://starsofthediamond.com/leachglory2.jpg

[Hankphenom]

Came across this again in my stuff while searching for something and thought it would be a good addition to the original thread here...

How many authors of such a book would have cut all the players in on the royalties? Just that one check was a decent amount of money in those days, equivalent to two or three grand today. But Larry didn't do it for the money. He was a peach.

[byrone]

How many authors of such a book would have cut all the players in on the royalties? Just that one check was a decent amount of money in those days, equivalent to two or three grand today. But Larry didn't do it for the money. He was a peach.

Any idea how much each player received in total?

And any idea how many books initially sold?

[Hankphenom]

Any idea how much each player received in total?

And any idea how many books initially sold?

No clue about the money. As for books sold, I remember seeing a figure of something like 250,000 quoted when we did the audio set, which was almost 25 years ago. It was then in its 14th printing and had never been out of print. Most of that total probably came in the first several years after publication in 1966. Very few non-fiction books ever achieve that level of success.

[Bigdaddy]

Came across this again in my stuff while searching for something and thought it would be a good addition to the original thread here...

That check is so cool, and a great piece of baseball and literary history.

[Jay Wolt]

Here's 3 of the checks that I had

https://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/checks5.jpg

[todeen]

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

+1

I made a comment similar to this in the Top 50 Hated Players thread, and it wasn't regarded highly by some there either.

[todeen]

I have a degree is history and have been researching baseball history for over 40 years. The first rule I have found that most historians agree on is that when you have a large sample of first hand accounts they out weigh revised history....

...With that said, no player has had more "current revisionist history" printed about him than Cobb. There seems to be a "he couldn't have been as bad as they said about him" attitude. I lean on the first hand accounts which seem to say that yes he might not have been a great human being. A great player yes and as collectors we all see his cards rising. But?

I have a MA in US History. My theory on life is everything is gray. There is no black and white. And that upsets many people. But people act out of necessity, and many times, necessity is controlled by uncontrollable forces (lessons learned very early in life from parents, experiences that affected outcomes, nature vs nurture ideas). That's also why we have the term hypocrite. As I said in another thread, a person can respect certain aspects of a different culture, and still treat people of that culture with disdain in other areas on life. As was said in an earlier post here, everyone in that generation was a racist. It is what it is.

[todeen]

The "slave states". Yeah, racist

All the people of those states? No, not all were racist.

It obviously must be said that many in the North were racist in there own way, and unions were extremely racist, blackballing African Americans from certain trades in order to protect the wages of white workers. No region of the US was free from racism, I live in Washington State, and segregated neighborhoods - due to activities of Realtor groups - existed even here, from Tacoma on the Puget Sound to Spokane on the Idaho border. And one need not be a virulent racist to be racist - simply saying something like "There goes the neighborhood" when a African American family moved in was simple enough to be racist.

[btcarfagno]

It obviously must be said that many in the North were racist in there own way, and unions were extremely racist, blackballing African Americans from certain trades in order to protect the wages of white workers. No region of the US was free from racism, I live in Washington State, and segregated neighborhoods - due to activities of Realtor groups - existed even here, from Tacoma on the Puget Sound to Spokane on the Idaho border. And one need not be a virulent racist to be racist - simply saying something like "There goes the neighborhood" when a African American family moved in was simple enough to be racist.

I am currently reading a book on the life of Octavius Catto. If anyone wants a true eye opener as to how racist the North got, just pick up a copy of this book.

[todeen]

Since people are adding checks, I think I will add my letter from Bucky Walters to Mr. Ritter. I like how he shares his appreciation and like for the book.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200117/0b7b9d160743eab514634524edb087fa.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Bicem]

Postcard used in book...

https://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/minors/oaklandcity/large/Screenshot_20191230-231839_2.png

[rats60]

I have a MA in US History. My theory on life is everything is gray. There is no black and white. And that upsets many people. But people act out of necessity, and many times, necessity is controlled by uncontrollable forces (lessons learned very early in life from parents, experiences that affected outcomes, nature vs nurture ideas). That's also why we have the term hypocrite. As I said in another thread, a person can respect certain aspects of a different culture, and still treat people of that culture with disdain in other areas on life. As was said in an earlier post here, everyone in that generation was a racist. It is what it is.

So all the members of the Underground Railroad were racists? It doesn't matter that whites were risking their lives, and sometimes dying, helping blacks. Branch Rickey must have been a racist too. How about Pee Wee Reese?

[Gary Dunaier]

http://starsofthediamond.com/leachglory.jpg

Just that one check was a decent amount of money in those days, equivalent to two or three grand today.

$2,027.99 to be specific. :)

[Gary Dunaier]

http://starsofthediamond.com/leachglory.jpg

Just that one check was a decent amount of money in those days, equivalent to two or three grand today.

$2,027.99 to be specific. :)

[todeen]

So all the members of the Underground Railroad were racists? It doesn't matter that whites were risking their lives, and sometimes dying, helping blacks. Branch Rickey must have been a racist too. How about Pee Wee Reese?I'm a Christian man. The seed of hatred and discrimination lies within us all.

There has been and always will be the ability to accept one minority without accepting them all. There were many a white abolitionist who thought that removing Native Americans from their families and reservations and forcing them into schools far away so that they could assimilate into white culture was best for them and their kind.

And further, being an abolitionist didn't mean one stood for equality in all segments of society. Being an abolitionist meant that you didn't believe one man could subjugate and enslave another. Abolitionists weren't advocating interracial marriage. Many didn't even advocate women's right to vote.

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[rats60]

I'm a Christian man. The seed of hatred and discrimination lies within us all.

There has been and always will be the ability to accept one minority without accepting them all. There were many a white abolitionist who thought that removing Native Americans from their families and reservations and forcing them into schools far away so that they could assimilate into white culture was best for them and their kind.

And further, being an abolitionist didn't mean one stood for equality in all segments of society. Being an abolitionist meant that you didn't believe one man could subjugate and enslave another. Abolitionists weren't advocating interracial marriage. Many didn't even advocate women's right to vote.

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Some maybe, but ALL? All who were risking their lives were still racists? Isn't that diminishing what real racism is? People today like to throw around that term to make themselves superior to others they disagree with. Racism injured and killed real humans. It is a word that shouldn't be used lightly.

[carlsonjok]

I'm a Christian man. The seed of hatred and discrimination lies within us all.

There has been and always will be the ability to accept one minority without accepting them all. There were many a white abolitionist who thought that removing Native Americans from their families and reservations and forcing them into schools far away so that they could assimilate into white culture was best for them and their kind.

And further, being an abolitionist didn't mean one stood for equality in all segments of society. Being an abolitionist meant that you didn't believe one man could subjugate and enslave another. Abolitionists weren't advocating interracial marriage. Many didn't even advocate women's right to vote.

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I think this is the salient point. I'm not a particularly active member here, nor am I anything approaching a competent baseball historian, but I have been blessed/cursed to have to walk this earth observing and evaluating my every move (ISTJ, represent!) Stereotyping is a common heuristic for dealing with unfamiliar situations. So, the question isn't whether a person is prejudiced or not, because everyone carries around some level of prejudice. The question is whether we can recognize that prejudice within ourselves and compartmentalize it away from our interactions with the world in general, and individuals specifically.

So, think of Cobb as Schrödinger's racist.

[Case12]

I think this is the salient point. I'm not a particularly active member here, nor am I anything approaching a competent baseball historian, but I have been blessed/cursed to have to walk this earth observing and evaluating my every move (ISTJ, represent!) Stereotyping is a common heuristic for dealing with unfamiliar situations. So, the question isn't whether a person is prejudiced or not, because everyone carries around some level of prejudice. The question is whether we can recognize that prejudice within ourselves and compartmentalize it away from our interactions with the world in general, and individuals specifically.

So, think of Cobb as Schrödinger's racist.

Well said....

[Hankphenom]

$2,027.99 to be specific. :)
A year earlier, as posted above, Edd Roush got one for $935. I guess that would be around nine grand today. Wow! Makes me wonder if Larry even kept any for himself

[lumberjack]

An interesting thing about the audio version of Ritter's work is what was left out.

Chief Meyers, a charmer on tape, remained bitter about the treatment of Native Americans, something we couldn't pick up on in the book.

Rube Bressler, who was cut by the Cardinals at the end of his career, was still very angry about his treatment in St. Louis. His take on Branch Rickey is eye-opening.

Ritter was interviewed by Mike Shannon for "Baseball The Writers' Game." It is very insightful. Ritter mentioned interviewing a player who was senile (we don't discover who). He also said not all of the interviews were productive, but he blamed himself for that. Someone (it may have been Ritter) said Willie Kamm was so dispassionate about his baseball career that he could have been talking about someone other than himself.

As for Cobb being a racist, where this thread seems to be leaning, let's just say that Ty Cobb was difficult. Odd might be a better fit. There IS plenty of evidence of that.
lumberjack

[todeen]

People today like to throw around that term to make themselves superior to others they disagree with. Racism injured and killed real humans. It is a word that shouldn't be used lightly.

Racism is not treating a group of people equally because of race or heritage. One does not need to burn a cross or lynch a man to be racist. When Hank Aaron couldn't sleep in the same hotel as his teammates was that not racism? When he had to wash his uniform at the black laundry on the other side of town, was that not racism? So then his teammates who said, "gosh Hank, I'm sorry, but that's just the way things are," don't they bare some burden for the problem continuing? They aren't just innocent bystanders. They could sleep elsewhere, they could eat elsewhere, but they didn't.

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[rhettyeakley]

Why are hijacking this thread and making it about whether or not long dead men that were raised and lived during times many of us were not born in either were or were not racist to some degree or another?

There will be no consensus reached here people! We don’t know the answer, nor will we ever know. It is like watching Don Quixote attacking a windmill!

[todeen]

There will be no consensus reached here people! We don’t know the answer, nor will we ever know. It is like watching Don Quixote attacking a windmill!

Nice comment. I like the Don Quixote reference. I'll stop.

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[tschock]

Some maybe, but ALL? All who were risking their lives were still racists? Isn't that diminishing what real racism is? People today like to throw around that term to make themselves superior to others they disagree with. Racism injured and killed real humans. It is a word that shouldn't be used lightly.

Of course it is. The statement akin to 'everyone is a racist' diminishes racism to the extent of saying every person alive is breathing. If indeed, everyone is a racist, what is the point of even being concerned with racism at all? Beyond being a bludgeon for preferential usage of the term.

[todeen]

So, the question isn't whether a person is prejudiced or not, because everyone carries around some level of prejudice. The question is whether we can recognize that prejudice within ourselves and compartmentalize it away from our interactions with the world in general, and individuals specifically.

Tschock, your answer was given by carlsonjok, who said it very well.

Or, if you're a bible believer, it's to realize your imperfection, to begin to follow the Lord's commands and to change your habits (to love thy neighbor as thy self, or to follow the golden rule), and to accept the redeeming power of Christ.

I'm sorry to hijack this thread like someone said earlier. I really like theory, theology, and philosophy and the attempts to turn theory into real life application.... and the difficulties this presents in trying to accomplish it.

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[Klrdds]

Having seen the royalty checks posted here , and seeing others in the past I wonder about the differing amounts per player , and how the royalty amounts for each player were determined as well as how long did the players receive the royalty checks ?
One thing is clear and that is that Ritter did a great job with the book and by all I’ve ever heard or read he tried to treat the players fairly throughout the process .

[rhettyeakley]

Having seen the royalty checks posted here , and seeing others in the past I wonder about the differing amounts per player , and how the royalty amounts for each player were determined as well as how long did the players receive the royalty checks ?
One thing is clear and that is that Ritter did a great job with the book and by all I’ve ever heard or read he tried to treat the players fairly throughout the process .

Interesting, it doesn't appear there was a set amount each player rec'd as the amounts in the checks are very different, although they were all written at different times so no true 1:1 comparison. The Roush check being the largest is interesting but it also appears to be the oldest check (1967) so maybe that was an initial amount rec'd for the ability to interview & their time and the later smaller amounts were royalties based on book sales? I believe the book came out initially in 1966.

Each player may have negotiated their own contract. If you have ever read anything about Roush he was a pretty shrewd and somewhat demanding player when it came to his contracts so he may have just negotiated better? Or it could be based on portion of the book that was dedicated to their story... the more interesting players likely got more press and thus a larger check? Interesting questions.

[lumberjack]

Here's what Ritter told Mike Shannon: "I don't remember how much each [subject] got...but it was something like 10, 15, 20,000 dollars.....Even when they died, we had written documents as to who was to get their share in the future."

This went on until, as Ritter said, the bookkeeping got to be too much. He eventually bought out everybody for $500 for their share. This would have been around 1987.

Ritter did not take anything from the project as it would have created tax problems for him. He was pretty well off and certainly in better shape than the retired players.
lumberjack

[Hankphenom]

Interesting, it doesn't appear there was a set amount each player rec'd as the amounts in the checks are very different, although they were all written at different times so no true 1:1 comparison. The Roush check being the largest is interesting but it also appears to be the oldest check (1967) so maybe that was an initial amount rec'd for the ability to interview & their time and the later smaller amounts were royalties based on book sales? I believe the book came out initially in 1966.

Each player may have negotiated their own contract. If you have ever read anything about Roush he was a pretty shrewd and somewhat demanding player when it came to his contracts so he may have just negotiated better? Or it could be based on portion of the book that was dedicated to their story... the more interesting players likely got more press and thus a larger check? Interesting questions.

It would make sense that the largest checks were at the beginning, then diminished over time. I'm pretty sure Larry didn't have any contracts with the players since he had no publisher for the book when he did the interviews and didn't really know if there would be one. He told us that Billy Werber refused to be interviewed unless he was paid, so there was no interview. Werber told Larry he planned to write his own book, so why would he give Ritter the information for free? Larry took some satisfaction in recounting how his book made many of the players famous again and how he was sure that Werber regretted his decision. It's surprising to me that so few of Larry's "Glory" checks have surfaced over the years considering he probably wrote at least one a year to all 28 players in the book for years. But I don't think I've ever seen one later than the early 70s. You would think if some of them came out, they all would have come out. In the dim recesses of my mind, I think autograph dealer Doug Averitt might have bought them from Larry, I know he had a bunch of them in the late 90s.

[lumberjack]

Memory is a funny thing.

Ritter told Mike Shannon that he interviewed Bill Werber. He considered the interview "terrific." It was kind of explosive. Weber had second thoughts and threatened to sue Ritter. Okay. Werber stayed out of the book.

When Don Honig began his tape recorded interviews with former players, Bill Werber turned up in his second book, "Baseball Between The Lines."

Ritter gave Honig three of the interviews that never made it into "Glory." We can assume that the Werber chapter is one of the three.

Werber, by the way, once threatened Red Smith before the start of a game. Smith recalled that he was ready to hit Werber with his typewriter. Why would anybody threaten Red Smith?
lumberjack

[Hankphenom]

Memory is a funny thing.

Ritter told Mike Shannon that he interviewed Bill Werber. He considered the interview "terrific." It was kind of explosive. Weber had second thoughts and threatened to sue Ritter. Okay. Werber stayed out of the book.

When Don Honig began his tape recorded interviews with former players, Bill Werber turned up in his second book, "Baseball Between The Lines."

Ritter gave Honig three of the interviews that never made it into "Glory." We can assume that the Werber chapter is one of the three.

Werber, by the way, once threatened Red Smith before the start of a game. Smith recalled that he was ready to hit Werber with his typewriter. Why would anybody threaten Red Smith?
lumberjack

Thanks for the information, my memory is certainly not what it used to be. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that Larry told us the reason Werber declined to let him use the interview had to do with money, that Werber figured he could cash in on his memoirs so why would he give it away? I'm guessing after the success of the book and the renewed prominence it gave the players, Werber realized he had made a mistake and allowed Donald Honig to use it. And yes, Larry said that his friend Honig kept bugging him so much about doing a sequel to "Glory" that Larry gave Honig the four interviews he hadn't used and told him, "I did my book, if you think there should be a sequel then go ahead and do it yourself!"

[lumberjack]

Henry, I believe you. Ritter did all of those interviews in the early '60s, however, and maybe he developed sort of a composite memory of what happened as the decades rolled by. "Glory" remains a treat.
lumberjack

[Hankphenom]

[QUOTE=lumberjack;1948596]Henry, I believe you. Ritter did all of those interviews in the early '60s, however, and maybe he developed sort of a composite memory of what happened as the decades rolled by. "Glory" remains a treat.
lumberjack[/QUOTE

Larry did develop a selective memory around certain aspects of Glory, as Neal and I discovered to our amusement when we were working with him. (He's quoted as extending the period of his searching and interviewing to as many as six years, when it actually all took place within and year and a half, for instance.) Other aspects of the Glory legend, in his telling, don't hold up to scrutiny, either, but none of it diminishes or tarnishes the monumental significance of what he accomplished. It's still hard for me to believe, even now, that I was lucky enough to have contributed in a small way to his incredible project.

[Leon]

This is really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing the info so it won't be lost for future hobbyists.


[/QUOTE

Larry did develop a selective memory around certain aspects of Glory, as Neal and I discovered to our amusement when we were working with him. (He's quoted as extending the period of his searching and interviewing to as many as six years, when it actually all took place within and year and a half, for instance.) Other aspects of the Glory legend, in his telling, don't hold up to scrutiny, either, but none of it diminishes or tarnishes the monumental significance of what he accomplished. It's still hard for me to believe, even now, that I was lucky enough to have contributed in a small way to his incredible project.

[Hankphenom]

This is really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing the info so it won't be lost for future hobbyists.

Thanks to you, Leon, for providing such a worthy forum.

[mferronibc]

Reviving old thread that got a little side tracked on Cobb. I just finished listening to the audio book and oh my god I loved every minute. My absolute favorite was the story of Charlie Faust as the unexpected mascot (good luck charm) for the Giants winning the pennant every year.

After listening to the book I have concluded (obviously):
1) Walter Johnson was the hands down best pitcher of his era. Basically every single player asked said so, always the first name that came up.

2) Christy Mathewson was the coolest guy. I am pretty much going to save every penny from now on to buy one of his T206s. He just seemed like the all American type guy - great pitcher, great man, great teammate. Although have to admit my excitement was a little tempered by Joe Posnanski’s recent article on The Athletic website counting down the top 100 players of all time. He has Matty at 36 and although corroborates his reputation for being good at everything and well respected, he tells a lot of stories about Matty blaming teammates and throwing them under the bus for some of his loses after the fact.

I finished the book wishing I had about 20 more of those CDs to keep going. Anyone have any other suggestions for books, audio or movies in the same vein?

[Georj]

In keeping in the same vein as Glory of their times, there is an excellent book by former 1930's-1940's pitcher Elden Auker called "Sleeper Cars and Flannel Uniforms: A Lifetime of Memories from Striking Out the Babe to Teeing It Up with the President". It's a good read if anyone is interested

[tschock]

I'm in the middle of "We Played the Game" and this 600+ page book is great. I don't <strike>have</strike> take the time to read much outside of waiting rooms, so I'm only on 1956 and it'll be a while until I get through the '60s.

https://www.amazon.com/We-Played-Game-Baseballs-1947-1964/dp/0786860081