"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[Phil68]

Hey guys! I am enjoying this forum so much looking at the cards and reading insights, etc. I have been collecting but really not immersed in the "2019 Grading Scandal" as I have heard and read it referred to.

What I think I know is, Brent sold some cards that were doctored and a forum called Blowout Cards brought attention to it. PSA was the TPG in offense. I read where Evan Mathis has allegedly trimmed up some rather expensive cards and has sold them? Is this all tied in together?

Is that it? Is there more? I see guys post back and forth and feel like the kid in the cafeteria without a place to sit, Lol. I'm reading about it but can't really grasp the issue beyond what I stated above.

I'm discussing with a good friend tonight that is interested in learning about it (he casually collects today's cards) and I found myself saying "Yeah, it sounds terrible. Scary stuff"...that seemed a little short and I heard myself sounding like an impeachment witness--not good.

How about a cliffs notes version--in a nutshell--what happened, what is continuing to happen and who has stepped up to be accountable and who is being a weasel. It would help a brother out AND others that troll around here could gather some information without having to bounce around thread to thread.

Facts only, if you can & Thank You!

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-moser-pwcc-marketplace-card-trimming-shill-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

[bnorth]

Fake Beckett and PSA slabs with altered and counterfeit cards

Altered cards in slabs from all the companies.

Most high grade cards ARE altered, even Mastro admitted that when he was busted.

Most of the people sticking up for the grading companies are really in on it, have mental issues, or are trying to protect the value of their collection.

Been this way for a long long time.

[Eric72]

Quick version:

Some people learned that they could get doctored cards into graded holders and sell them for massive profits. We’re probably only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Hey guys! I am enjoying this forum so much looking at the cards and reading insights, etc. I have been collecting but really not immersed in the "2019 Grading Scandal" as I have heard and read it referred to.

What I think I know is, Brent sold THOUSANDS of cards that were PURCHASED FROM HIM BY KNOWN CARD DOCTORS AND THEN doctored AND THEN RESOLD FOR THE DOCTORS BY HIM and a forum called Blowout Cards brought attention to it. PSA was the TPG in offense. I read where Evan Mathis has allegedly trimmed up some rather expensive cards and has sold them? Is this all tied in together?

Is that it? Is there more? I see guys post back and forth and feel like the kid in the cafeteria without a place to sit, Lol. I'm reading about it but can't really grasp the issue beyond what I stated above.

I'm discussing with a good friend tonight that is interested in learning about it (he casually collects today's cards) and I found myself saying "Yeah, it sounds terrible. Scary stuff"...that seemed a little short and I heard myself sounding like an impeachment witness--not good.

How about a cliffs notes version--in a nutshell--what happened, what is continuing to happen and who has stepped up to be accountable and who is being a weasel. It would help a brother out AND others that troll around here could gather some information without having to bounce around thread to thread.

Facts only, if you can & Thank You!

That should help

[Johnny630]

Remember this PSA is Teflon. Accept no accountability they just offer an opinion. How can they be held responsible they can’t. Pop Report and Registry Have People Brainwashed. They Will Stay Number 1.....this will pass but collateral damage will happens for a period of time for most graded cards.

My big Key Point that interests me the most is

PSA Invitationals held twice or quarterly a year, One On One meetings with graders of your cards to “discuss”????

Vault and Major Market Manipulation Starting late 2013

My Key Bullet Points to Research

[Phil68]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-moser-pwcc-marketplace-card-trimming-shill-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

[swarmee]

The stock piece is really a red herring, IMO. The majority of those stock sales were likely to cover taxes on his other stocks and income. It may look bad, but really isn't.
The declaration during a stockholder's teleconference that the grading scandals is immaterial to their business/shareholders is ridiculous. PSA is getting the biggest brunt of it because their slabs sell for the most, and their numbering scheme is easy to determine which order the cards were graded in, for the most part.
Beckett is getting blamed for favoritism by rewarding a single submitter with like 25% of all BGS 10 Pristines and 10 Black Labels given out in the last couple of years. But since they don't have a "grade guarantee", the buyers who got hosed with trimmed cards in Beckett slabs don't really have anywhere to get a refund.

[egbeachley]

Here is the best summary I have heard.

You are more likely to receive an altered card if purchased in a PSA slab than if you purchased it raw.

[Tyruscobb]

Besides the card doctoring, 2019 also revealed the artificial pumping that occurs. A certain company or companies was/were allegedly reporting sales for market appearances.

It/they would report that card X sold for Y price. However, the “winning” bidder would not actually pay. Thus, the final sale price was not legit and actually realized.

This makes the market/demand appear stronger than reality and creates artificial prices. Possibly also related to shill bidding.

We are seeing just the iceberg’s tip. I hope the FBI is building it’s cases.

[perezfan]

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them. The number of altered/numerically slabbed cards is now well into the thousands, with values totaling tens of millions of dollars. And only a tiny percentage of the tainted card pool has been revealed to date. It is quite difficult and time consuming to fully research and reveal these alterations. So it's still the tip of the iceberg, as many have stated.

Hopefully the FBI (who's been investigating this for months) will clear up the incompetence/complicity question, and will issue arrests commensurate with the level of fraud committed.

[Stampsfan]

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them...

IMO You've hit the nail on the head. No matter which one this is, it's disgusting that they are either:
a. Horrible at their job
b. Outright thieves

Not sure which one I am actually hoping for...

[seff]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

[bnorth]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

[ullmandds]

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

[seff]

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

[irv]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

There are 3 possibilities here?

Either someone is feeding you a pile of B.S., you have PSA cards that you are trying to protect the value of or your a PSA troll?

Not a chance PSA grades harsher than SGC. That one is easily debunked just by checking out graded cards on ebay, here, or Blowout.

[swarmee]

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

The Buster guy has regularly complained about crossing SGC 88 (NM-MT 8) cards to PSA and how few actually cross.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=15387891&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

[ullmandds]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

You’re Clueless with a capital C!

A lemming with a capital L!

A sheeple with a capital S!

Baaaaaaaaaaah!

[Phil68]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

[Johnny630]

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

+1 I didn’t wanna say it in a way the sounded rude.

[Phil68]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=15387891&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

Wow. That's really bad. Hard to make a viable excuse for that.

[bnorth]

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.:)

[ullmandds]

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.:)

Me3!

[Fred]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

If PSA rejects it then you can be sure it's altered.... :p

I would think the TPG names could be interchangeable in what is written above.

No one is perfect? Yeah, but you'd hope that when you start a business of being a TPG service, that you'd at least get the first card right (or at least the first few).

[Phil68]

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.:)

For what it's worth, you seem just fine to me! :) Maybe someone will come up with a tone acronym. For now, I'll just write my intentions. I've been grossly misunderstood before--years ago--while writing. My inner circle knew exactly how to interpret me...my new "friends" on a discussion board did not. Once people think you're a tool--they don't give you the benefit of the doubt. A good hatred is much more fun and they pile on, Lol.

[Bigdaddy]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

[Johnny630]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

[perezfan]

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

[Johnny630]

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.:)

I have the opposite problem :) (Shhhhhh!!!)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

[steve B]

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

By grading it as altered, which it is.

An 8th grader with a pocketknife could do just as well. (I have the Hostess cards from a scout campout to prove it too :( Can't complain too much, I was the 8th grader with a pocketknife)

[Leon]

The grading scandal has shown all collectors/hobbyists that TPGs only give their opinions and they are not facts. A lot of us could do a way better job. It has brought about the need for even better understanding of the sets, and their characteristics, than before. And it has made a lot of collectors wary of high grade cards that are short with pointy corners. There are 10s of thousands of altered cards in numerical slabs. The higher the grade the more likely there is fraud but even lower grade cards are not exempt.

[drcy]

Some collectors care about truth and some care about perception. When their money is involved it's usually about perception.

[topcat61]

There's another part of this which came out in November 2018 and that is the forged autographed T206 and 1933 Goudey's which are tied into the grading companies, J. Spence and the auction houses. I filed a few FOIA requests to the FBI recently because this particular case hasn't been resolved.

I went back as far as 2010 (though I think you can go back as far as 1991) but while the FBI and the Justice Department were going after Bill Mastro, they and members of Congress threatened the "Hobby" that if they didn't clean up its act, they would. Most people were at the time saying "I'll see it when I believe it" and to a degree, it's been a correct statement.

We can blame the grading companies and auction houses all we want to, but some of the blame has to go to the collectors as well. There are a lot of great dealers, auctions and collectors, but too many turn a blind eye because of the amount of money that's invested -and then there are people who dont know what's going on either who also continue to do business as usual.

[cammb]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Who says that?

[Frank A]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Where did you come up with that fantasy?

[Stampsfan]

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.

I am absolutely pi$$ed with an auction house at the moment on a consignment issue. Been fighting with them for almost three years. The amount (approx. $1000) is not worth suing over. However, I will be formally documenting the issue in an upcoming post, and on a new website I am building.

My $1000 item is now essentially worthless because of their neglect and incompetence, but I am not getting a lawyer and suing them. You cannot equate one with the other.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.

+1

This whole, "no lawsuits so everyone is satisfied" line of BS is getting old. The only people who are satisfied are the ones that don't know about this scandal to begin with. They are satisfied with their altered cards because they don't know about them.

[Touch'EmAll]

In a nutshell ? Sucks, be super cautious here on out.

[benjulmag]

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

[Republicaninmass]

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

You have to login more!;)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.



I am absolutely pi$$ed with an auction house at the moment on a consignment issue. Been fighting with them for almost three years. The amount (approx. $1000) is not worth suing over. However, I will be formally documenting the issue in an upcoming post, and on a new website I am building.

My $1000 item is now essentially worthless because of their neglect and incompetence, but I am not getting a lawyer and suing them. You cannot equate one with the other.

It appears the point of your post is 'why bother, since its only $1000 given all the costs and time involve to try to recover damages.


what about the 50k and 100k issues we have seen on other cards.

You said $1000 is not worth fighting for, what about 100k? If answer is no, why bring up the $1000 item. My point is there are a lot more issues than low value cards, there is plenty of high dollar cards issues which makes your argument weak

I am sure nobody is 'happy' or 'satisfied' its obvoius tongue and cheek but nobody has filed a lawsuit so everyone is just eating their card issues like you , is what you would be saying even on the 50k ones...thats assuming the owner only has 1 card..he could have more than 1 as well that have issues or its being resolved to their 'satisfaction' P where lawsuit not necessary. If there have been any lawsuits, correct me.

There is not unlimited time, there are statutes of limitations as well...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

I nominate your post, at least for the year 2020..... nice one bizarro Peter C...

[Fuddjcal]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

[swarmee]

There is a lawsuit between Leaf and Upper Deck which brought in BGS grading improprieties into the discussion. Joe Clemons was called to testify about whether or not he was receiving improper grades from BGS for Leaf, I believe.

[bmcnutt]

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

[Leon]

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?

[drcy]

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

[Fuddjcal]

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

Not that I know of which makes this scam all the more remarkable

[perezfan]

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?

I think he might just be frustrated that these Dealers and TPGs continue to do business as usual (and rake in money, from mostly unsuspecting victims) while the investigation transpires. It's as if nothing has changed, despite the tens of thousands of altered cards revealed in numbered PSA holders.

All entities are still seemingly thriving (for now, anyway). Patience is a virtue … but is difficult for those of us who are eager to see industry fraud and corruption cleaned up.

[1952boyntoncollector]

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

i dont, as i have said before correct me if i an wrong. I assume someone on blowout or somewhere else would of mentioned it. lawsuits are not secrets they are in public view

[bnorth]

I think he might just be frustrated that these Dealers and TPGs continue to do business as usual (and rake in money, from mostly unsuspecting victims) while the investigation transpires. It's as if nothing has changed, despite the tens of thousands of altered cards revealed in numbered PSA holders.

All entities are still seemingly thriving (for now, anyway). Patience is a virtue … but is difficult for those of us who are eager to see industry fraud and corruption cleaned up.

+1 That is how I read the post also.

[jchcollins]

Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00.

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

[jchcollins]

At a very high level:

* The scandal has proven some of our worst fears about TPG's true - that in many cases they were not up to the task of knowing what they should know about how to detect altered cards, that in many cases they were at least susceptible to improper influence from their largest customers, and that in many cases the "professional" in professional grading was just a marketing term.

At it's best, professional grading at first helped to consolidate standards and make it easier to buy a card in a certain "range" sight unseen with a greater chance that the card you received in the mail would be somewhat what you expected that you had ordered. But at a foundation level, even when done correctly, the model for professional grading which exists today reaches a point of inconsistency due to the subjectivity inherent in the process which has not been able to be overcome. At some point, the precision of professional grading is fraud, because it's been proven anew what many knew all along: There is no magic. It's just an opinion. It's just one opinion. And the standard for that opinion may be different today than it was yesterday on the same card, or even one like it that comes into their queue a mere 5 minutes later.

The collector's own opinion and evaluation of the authenticity and condition of the piece in question is in the end what really matters, and what we have to get back to with additional eduction.

[perezfan]

At a very high level:

* The scandal has proven some of our worst fears about TPG's true - that in many cases they were not up to the task of knowing what they should know about how to detect altered cards, that in many cases they were at least susceptible to improper influence from their largest customers, and that in many cases the "professional" in professional grading was just a marketing term.

At it's best, professional grading at first helped to consolidate standards and make it easier to buy a card in a certain "range" sight unseen with a greater chance that the card you received in the mail would be somewhat what you expected that you had ordered. But at a foundation level, even when done correctly, the model for professional grading which exists today reaches a point of inconsistency due to the subjectivity inherent in the process which has not been able to be overcome. At some point, the precision of professional grading is fraud, because it's been proven anew what many knew all along: There is no magic. It's just an opinion. It's just one opinion. And the standard for that opinion may be different today than it was yesterday on the same card, or even one like it that comes into their queue a mere 5 minutes later.

The collector's own opinion and evaluation of the authenticity and condition of the piece in question is in the end what really matters, and what we have to get back to with additional eduction.

Great points... especially that last paragraph.

I will never submit anything to PSA, but have bought cards that reside in PSA holders (just because they were in the condition I was seeking and priced right). It had absolutely nothing to do with the inconsequential PSA slab.

Bottom line is to trust your own eye, seek out the best example within your budget, and give very little (if any) credence to their arbitrarily assigned number.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

To me the biggest issue in this scandal is that PSA had been told repeatedly in the distant past (10+ years ago), that they had a significant problem of grading and slabbing altered cards and now fast forward to 2019 and obviously nothing adequate was done to fix the problem. I won't speculate if this massive mess on PSA's part was deliberate indifference, willfully intentional or they made an earnest attempt, but can't detect alterations to save their lives. Regardless, they need to be held accountable and explain why this happened in light of the prior notification.

So now, there's no way that PSA could afford to buy back all of the doctored cards in PSA holders that are now out there in circulation and furthermore, the top sets in the vintage PSA Registeries are likely significantly tainted with bad cards thus turning the entire registry competition into an embarrassing sham.

[ejharrington]

In an nutshell, PSA is an example of a company that grew faster than it could effectively manage. It can still recover as many successful companies have had growing pains but had management that was able to adapt and overcome the problems associated with fast growth.

However, if they don't adjust, their reputation may be ruined and they could go bankrupt settling warranty claims. The following two risk factors are included in their Annual Report among all the boilerplate risk factors.

I hope the Board of Directors makes the right decisions for the sake of shareholders, card holders, and the hobby generally...




Damage to our reputation could have a material adverse effect on our business, financial condition and results of operations.We have developed a reputation as one of the leading third party providers of collectibles authentication and grading
services, as well as related services, as a result of a number of factors including, we believe, the rigorousness and consistency of our
grading standards and the integrity of our grading processes, which enables us to provide warranty protection to our customers, our
knowledge of the collectibles markets in which we operate, and innovative programs and services that we have developed and are
able to offer to our customers, including the Collectors Club, our Set Registry Programs and our Certified Coin Exchange dealerto-
dealer Internet bid-ask market. As a result, our continued success is heavily dependent on our maintaining that reputation
among collectibles dealers and collectors. Failures or errors in authentication or grading processes, such as inconsistent application
of grading standards or incidents that put the integrity of those processes into question, could significantly impair our reputation
in the marketplace which, in turn, could lead to a loss of customer confidence and a decrease in the demand for our services and,
therefore, could have a material adverse effect on our business, financial condition and results of operations.


We could suffer losses on authentication and grading warranties.In general, we issue an authenticity or grading warranty for coins and trading cards that we authenticate or grade. Those
warranties provide that:
▪ if a coin or trading card that we authenticated and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders are later
determined by us not to have been genuine, we would have to purchase the collectible at its current market value had
it been genuine; or
▪ if a coin or trading card that we graded and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders later receives a lower
grade upon resubmission to us for grading, we would be obligated either to purchase the collectible at the market
value at its original assigned grade or to pay the difference between that value as compared to the value at the lower
grade.
We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such
warranty claims based on historical experience. However, there is no assurance that these warranty reserves will prove to be
adequate, and as we expand our services in overseas markets, we may incur higher warranty claims than we have experienced in
the past. If our warranty reserves prove to be inadequate, our gross margin and operating results could be harmed. As a result, we
monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis.

[Phil68]

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

I still remember the 2 cards I bought at a card show that were "superior examples"...I paid 350.00 for a '61 Aaron (years later graded SGC 92) the "Beckett" was like 120-160 in NM condition. That same day, I bought a 1950 Bowman Campanella for 600.00 (later graded PSA 9) that booked for 150-190 in NM condition.
Oddly, neither of those cards has moved much in raw NM form in the past 30 years since I bought 'em!

[Leon]

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

All just opinions.

[Exhibitman]

In a nutshell:

This is a card:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/E137%20Zeenuts%201934-36%20Eckhardt.jpg

This is grading a card:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Jeong%20jack.gif

Any questions?

[SAllen2556]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

[Fuddjcal]

To me the biggest issue in this scandal is that PSA had been told repeatedly in the distant past (10+ years ago), that they had a significant problem of grading and slabbing altered cards and now fast forward to 2019 and obviously nothing adequate was done to fix the problem. I won't speculate if this massive mess on PSA's part was deliberate indifference, willfully intentional or they made an earnest attempt, but can't detect alterations to save their lives. Regardless, they need to be held accountable and explain why this happened in light of the prior notification.

So now, there's no way that PSA could afford to buy back all of the doctored cards in PSA holders that are now out there in circulation and furthermore, the top sets in the vintage PSA Registeries are likely significantly tainted with bad cards thus turning the entire registry competition into an embarrassing sham.

what kind of rational man even gives 2 flying F's about the registry? I think it is for complete blithering morons, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.:D

[Exhibitman]

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.:D

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

[Ben Yourg]

So,let's say I buy a Raw card,and it's worth a few dollars.It looks
real nice,and the same under magnification.
Now,I know it will make a better presentation,and will be
protected better,if I have it graded.
If the grade is way different,than my opinion,would I regrade,
or break it out,and leave it raw?
After hearing opinions here, on grading companies,raw seems best.
I've known a top notch Dealer-Collector,for years.And,he has never
liked graded cards.And refuses,to deal with them.
He does not like to have someone ,sometimes,say he is wrong?
And then that card is sort of "Branded",by perhaps a young
person,who has worked,grading cards 6 months.
So,if you're looking at the card,and in your opinion it's VG/EX,
it's VG/EX.

[japhi]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

[Fuddjcal]

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

So true...:D

[1952boyntoncollector]

I’m not sure they care tbh.


I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

so his 'best' stuff is trimmed...not exactly best stuff to me

[bnorth]

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

I don't know if it is the same person but I have seen one buyer(sucker/mark/moron) that has done the same. Not only did they let the scammers line up and sell him expensive altered cards. He still sticks up for the shady sellers. Like they say it takes all kinds.:)

[KLSDAD]

Could somebody nutshell a who's who? Both here and (mainly) at Blowout alot of the conversation assumes that everyone is up on all the players.

Just a quick summary like...

Grading companies and each's main offenses
Grading company execs/management in the spotlight
Grading company whistleblowers
Offline auction companies and execs
Online auction companies/screennames
Sellers linked to shady auction companies
Alleged trimmers
Blowout whitleblowers

Hmmm....looks like alot of work. Then I see a gazillion posts on message boards (mainly at Blowout) and think that maybe some effort could be redirected. :D

[swarmee]

PSA (Joe Orlando / Steve Sloan): Either horribly incompetent at detecting alterations or partially incompetent and partially complicit in fraud, giving favored submitters higher grades than regular Joes or passing through altered cards as unaltered to keep the submissions rolling in.
BGS: Incompetent at detecting trimming on modern cards; have been giving favored submitters like Leaf and Joe Clemons (former BGS employee) an impossible number of BGS 10 (Pristines and Black Labels with all 4 BGS 10 subgrades). These sell for like 5x what a Gem Mint 9.5 card sells for on the same modern cards.
SGC: Graded some very high value trimmed or recolored cards with numbers at the National Convention (like $50K each) that were outed, plus were heavily used by OCSI to grade trimmed cards. Not used as often on modern since their resale value is much lower than PSA or BGS. Also closed their autograph authentication wing after they agreed with JSA that 12 Sharpie signed T206 cards were outed as counterfeits and slabbed them as Authentic. Those sold for thousands apiece.

As of now, not many internal whistleblowers, but many high submitters who attended the BGS or PSA annual meetings have been outed as card alterers.

Small Traditions is probably the biggest auctionhouse who have been outed as trimming the heck out of cards, but it's highly likely there are others. Paper trails are smaller with auctionhouses because of their secret consignors and kind of invisible employees.

PWCC (Brent Huigens) is well-known already.

COMC had some former employees accused of trimming and selling through COMC, and some of their largest sellers were outed as trimmers. COMC is trying to buy back the cards that have been outed and their owner Tim Getsch has promised to write some code to detect trimming on cards in their scans. Refunds are super slow going since they only have a small team working the refunds, and that same team is supposedly also working their rollout of eBay auctions.

Check the www.sportscardradio.com site to see many of the accusers trimmers and other scammers currently operating in the hobby.

[Bram99]

Hello,

Has anyone created a document version (excel or Word possibly) of all of the suspect altered/trimmed cards from the various Blowout forum and other listings? It seems extremely difficult to wade through all of these forum pages to find such a listing. I am looking for something easily searchable.

Tony

[Fred]

Hello,

Has anyone created a document version (excel or Word possibly) of all of the suspect altered/trimmed cards from the various Blowout forum and other listings? It seems extremely difficult to wade through all of these forum pages to find such a listing. I am looking for something easily searchable.

Tony

Any list you get will not be accurate unless PSA Cert# 00000001 is on the list. :p

[perezfan]

Probably far too many to keep track of, at this point. Someone would need to invest hundreds of hours, to properly log them all.

You really have to exercise your own due diligence.

[swarmee]

I mean, you could do a Google search like "site:blowoutforums.com psa cert xxxxxxxxx" or use site:net54baseball.com instead and find the majority of the outed cards. Even using the first 5-6 numbers of the cert number would get you down to checking cards within the submission.

[doug.goodman]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Really what you are saying is that you don't care that your cards are altered as long as somebody will grade them eventually (at least three submissions for each of the cards mentioned in your post).

When you sell those two cards your line will be "graded by SGC" with no mention of the two rejections.

YOU are what is wrong with what many of us still consider a hobby.

I don't know you, but I don't like you.

Doug "don't take it personally, I don't like very many people" Goodman

[jbsports33]

Phil,

Just keep it simple, be smart about your buying and keep up with the news enough to make the right moves buying cards. Do not let bad apples in the hobby keep you from your enjoyment of collecting. Good Luck!

Net54 and https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/ are great resources to keep you up to date!

Jimmy