View Full Version : PWCC reeling from losing my business!
999Tony
12-10-2019, 11:40 AM
I recently posted that I wasn't bidding on a low grade common lot of Butterfinger premiums because they were in a PWCC auction. The auction concluded with total price with shipping just under $50. I would have bid about $20 higher. So this might have cost PWCC $3-4 or even more!*
How many more financial shocks like this can PWCC handle before it collapses?
*(Yeah I know depends if winner would have kept bidding against me)
They will not be able to handle much more of that
Snapolit1
12-10-2019, 11:59 AM
Brent probably called an emergency meeting this morning of upper management.
At this point anyone who thinks they are going to fare better with him with a really special card (lower commisssion I understand) than a real AH should have their head examined. If I see a nice card with him I immediately assume it’d been under the knife. Same logic I employ in topless bars where things just look too perfect.
ullmandds
12-10-2019, 12:02 PM
Welllllllll...I'd have to think between the legal fees they're payiing JL...the refunds they've been giving and the fact some people are not soliciting their services..they're feeling something...and it aint warm apple pie!
bobbyw8469
12-10-2019, 12:03 PM
brent probably called an emergency meeting this morning of upper management.
At this point anyone who thinks they are going to fare better with him (lower commisssion i understand) than a real ah should have their head examined. If i see a nice card with him i immediately assume it’d been under the knife. Same logic i employ in topless bars where things just look too perfect.
lol!!!
Stampsfan
12-10-2019, 01:44 PM
...If I see a nice card with him I immediately assume it’d been under the knife. Same logic I employ in topless bars where things just look too perfect.
OK that is really funny!!
Sometimes things are simply too good to be true.
japhi
12-10-2019, 02:15 PM
I know op is an attempt at satire, but here is the thing. You can’t look at individual cards and try to draw a conclusion. The proper way to size impact would be total sales volume by auction MOM and YOY. Not sure if this data is available but if it was it would be interesting to see that 2008 fall auction is up or down x% YOY.
Another thing to consider is we are in one of the greatest asset bubbles we will likely ever see. No hobby scandal can counter the absolute flush of cash that is flowing into RE, art, equities, etc.
Last, Brent himself is on record stating that 15-30 collectors are driving the whole top end of the market. So it wouldn’t take too many of these collectors to move to the sidelines to impact prices. That said, these same collectors have incentive to keep the party going, which takes me back to asset bubble. Nothing is going to change as long as money is cheap and accessible.
Copa7
12-10-2019, 02:52 PM
As soon as I see those letter - PWCC - I think someone of cutting and carving.
I save money by not buying anything with those letters.
JollyElm
12-10-2019, 03:17 PM
Every single search I do on ebay contains "-(PWCC, Dean)" and life is beautiful (unless I'm looking for a Dean Meminger or Dean Chance card, of course).
Stampsfan
12-10-2019, 04:32 PM
Last, Brent himself is on record stating that 15-30 collectors are driving the whole top end of the market.
Is this a fact that he said that? Wow if true. Not exactly a business based on volume.
I’d love to see a reference to that or some metrics to back that up. I bet there are more cars doctors than that.
frankbmd
12-10-2019, 04:34 PM
A. An establishment serving adult beverages without a roof, frequently seasonal in snow country.
B. An establishment serving adult beverages in which the bar itself no longer has a table top surface, where finding a place to set down your drink is a pain in the neck.
C. An establishment serving adult beverages featuring entertainment devoid of clothing above the waist.
D. An establishment serving adult beverages that is clothing optional for the patrons, who in fact may also be bottomless.:eek:
Perhaps this should be in the form of a poll for our members to indicate their preference.
japhi
12-10-2019, 05:50 PM
Is this a fact that he said that? Wow if true. Not exactly a business based on volume.
I’d love to see a reference to that or some metrics to back that up. I bet there are more cars doctors than that.
He did, I believe on this forum when he used to participate. Someone with better search skills can probably find it.
And it makes sense - PWCC sells 50mm a year, if 20mm of that is ultra high end, 25 whales could easily consume all that inventory. I suspect a lot of ultrahigh end inventory is in a few hands and if/when these guys exit look out.
The card doctors are selling cards to all types of collectors. If you look at most outed cards they are in the 500-1k range. Even the big ones are under 25k. The doctors are making money on volume, turning 50’dollar bills into 1k paydays
Peter_Spaeth
12-10-2019, 05:54 PM
Every single search I do on ebay contains "-(PWCC, Dean)" and life is beautiful (unless I'm looking for a Dean Meminger or Dean Chance card, of course).
Or an altered card.:eek:
(PWCC reference only.)
CMIZ5290
12-10-2019, 05:56 PM
Meanwhile, Brent and Betsy keeping laughing all the way to the bank.....
frankbmd
12-10-2019, 06:05 PM
Meanwhile, Brent and Betsy keeping laughing all the way to the bank.....
Partners
With
Cash
Cache
Meanwhile, Brent and Betsy keeping laughing all the way to the bank.....
I will go out on a limb and say they aren't quite laughing all the way to the bank right about now.
mintacular
12-13-2019, 03:19 PM
What was the point of this original thread, not to be critical....Were you being sarcastic that you are just a drop in the bucket and the PWCC steamroller rolls on. Or were you trying to say people like yourself are dropping out of their auctions and indeed deflating their final sales prices/bottom line?
Just my opinion. This will probably blow over for them and it will be business as usual in a short period of time. It seems to be a trend. Crappy things are identified, the hobbyists throw their hands up (in disgust), vow never to do business again with these buttheads and after a few months, nothing is truly done and everything goes back to the way it was. Maybe, just maybe, there might have been a little hand slapping but in the end, what really is done to better the hobby?
CMIZ5290
12-13-2019, 05:39 PM
Fred is spot on.....Here is where I am at with all of this.... Brent Huigens and Rick Probstein have been crucified on this Board for years, not months, but several years (rightly so in most cases) and not a damn thing ever gets done, ever... Ebay isn't going to do a damn thing about it, even though of possibly knowing of bad doings....So now what? What's going to happen realistically? My opinion? They will keep right on rolling along.....
perezfan
12-13-2019, 05:53 PM
Fred is spot on.....Here is where I am at with all of this.... Brent Huigens and Rick Probstein have been crucified on this Board for years, not months, but several years (rightly so in most cases) and not a damn thing ever gets done, ever... Ebay isn't going to do a damn thing about it, even though of possibly knowing of bad doings....So now what? What's going to happen realistically? My opinion? They will keep right on rolling along.....
Speaking of Rick Probstein…
Check out his response to an indisputably proven altered card that he is currently (and fraudulently) selling...
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1338754
How anyone could support this business model is beyond me. I know... stuff trumps all... but what an arrogant POS!
CMIZ5290
12-13-2019, 06:06 PM
Speaking of Rick Probstein…
Check out his response to an indisputably proven altered card that he is currently (and fraudulently) selling...
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1338754
How anyone could support this business model is beyond me. I know... stuff trumps all... but what an arrogant POS!
Mark.....He is, and let me tell you something.... He doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, actually laughs about it....
perezfan
12-13-2019, 06:13 PM
Mark.....He is, and let me tell you something.... He doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, actually laughs about it....
Yeah... and the ONLY way to get him to stop his laughing is to stop buying/consigning from him.
But to your point... the blind will keep leading the blind, and things will likely never change. I used to believe the vast majority simply didn't know about the fraud. Now I think they just don't care. :(
BigBeerGut
12-13-2019, 06:22 PM
Meanwhile, Brent and Betsy keeping laughing all the way to the bank.....
Do not mention Betsy
Snapolit1
12-13-2019, 06:36 PM
Just my opinion. This will probably blow over for them and it will be business as usual in a short period of time. It seems to be a trend. Crappy things are identified, the hobbyists throw their hands up (in disgust), vow never to do business again with these buttheads and after a few months, nothing is truly done and everything goes back to the way it was. Maybe, just maybe, there might have been a little hand slapping but in the end, what really is done to better the hobby?
That couldn’t be more spot on. Well said. That sums up about the last 100,000 comments on this board. In a nutshell. Perfectly.
Aquarian Sports Cards
12-13-2019, 07:10 PM
I know things move too slowly for, well, everyone, but the FBI being involved is a little different than the run of the mill crappy things that people have been bitching about for years.
BigBeerGut
12-14-2019, 01:39 PM
I know things move too slowly for, well, everyone, but the FBI being involved is a little different than the run of the mill crappy things that people have been bitching about for years.
How do we know the FBI is involved? Crock-O-Bull
Aquarian Sports Cards
12-14-2019, 08:20 PM
Their presence at PWCC's booth at the national would certainly suggest it...
JackW
12-14-2019, 08:24 PM
Scott seems very well-connected in the hobby. If he says the FBI is involved, you can book it. (Pardon the pun!)
ullmandds
12-14-2019, 08:41 PM
Their presence at PWCC's booth at the national would certainly suggest it...
Kinda surprising with the FBI at their booth...Lichtman as their lawyer...there is still funny business seemingly going on with their auctions.
Copa7
12-15-2019, 08:07 AM
Forget the registry. Before I buy a card to invest, I check to see if it was ever sold by PWCC.
If I want an altered card, ill do it myself. (at least I'll know what I got)
bnorth
12-15-2019, 08:10 AM
Kinda surprising with the FBI at their booth...Lichtman as their lawyer...there is still funny business seemingly going on with their auctions.
I am more wondering how this is connected to Stevens thread on Lelands because as a stand alone thread it makes zero sense. Especially with the level of threats, kinda reminds me of how Jeffery became PWCCs lawyer.:D
ullmandds
12-15-2019, 08:21 AM
I am more wondering how this is connected to Stevens thread on Lelands because as a stand alone thread it makes zero sense. Especially with the level of threats, kinda reminds me of how Jeffery became PWCCs lawyer.:D
ya...there's that too...multiple curious story lines these days.
calvindog
12-15-2019, 09:45 AM
I am more wondering how this is connected to Stevens thread on Lelands because as a stand alone thread it makes zero sense. Especially with the level of threats, kinda reminds me of how Jeffery became PWCCs lawyer.:D
It actually was from a referral. But if you’re claiming what you just wrote is a fact and not your opinion let me know.
CuriousGeorge
12-15-2019, 11:58 AM
Better to just allow yourself and others to just get ripped off and do nothing like you apparently would do? I guess that helps to explain a lot.
I am more wondering how this is connected to Stevens thread on Lelands because as a stand alone thread it makes zero sense. Especially with the level of threats, kinda reminds me of how Jeffery became PWCCs lawyer.:D
bnorth
12-15-2019, 12:51 PM
It actually was from a referral. But if you’re claiming what you just wrote is a fact and not your opinion let me know.
No facts, just a funny conspiracy theory opinion from an unemployed hobby nobody.:)
calvindog
12-15-2019, 12:59 PM
No facts, just a funny conspiracy theory opinion from an unemployed hobby nobody.:)
Ben, if you can work a scanner and answer phones I’ve got a job for you.
Wait: do you speak Spanish?
bnorth
12-15-2019, 01:02 PM
Ben, if you can work a scanner and answer phones I’ve got a job for you.
I appreciate the offer but I am doing OK.:) Now if that job could be located about 80 to 120 miles south-west of PWCC headquarters I can do both.
No facts, just a funny conspiracy theory opinion from an unemployed hobby nobody.:)
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Snapolit1
12-16-2019, 07:29 AM
Please raise your hand if you think fraud in the baseball card collecting world is anywhere in the top 500 things the FBI is currently concerned about. Anybody? Do I see one hand up in the back of the room?
CuriousGeorge
12-16-2019, 07:36 AM
Please raise your hand if you think fraud in the baseball card collecting world is anywhere in the top 500 things the FBI is currently concerned about. Anybody? Do I see one hand up in the back of the room?
Fortunately they have the ability and resources to be involved with more than 500 things at once.
CuriousGeorge
12-16-2019, 07:41 AM
Did Crazy Uncle thread disappear?
ullmandds
12-16-2019, 07:44 AM
looks like there's a new "policy" in place around here?
CuriousGeorge
12-16-2019, 07:46 AM
Wow just found it in water cooler section. And locked! Glad I didn’t buy anything in that auction because I’d have no idea what was going on with them anymore.
Snapolit1
12-16-2019, 07:46 AM
Fortunately they have the ability and resources to be involved with more than 500 things at once.
Yeah, and eventually like every organization on the face of the earth they sit around at some point and decide budgeting, priorities for the coming year, which things merit continued attention, staffing needs, etc. I see the FBI in the paper every day now. . . . .and it ain't about baseball cards. . . . .
Rhotchkiss
12-16-2019, 07:48 AM
Please raise your hand if you think fraud in the baseball card collecting world is anywhere in the top 500 things the FBI is currently concerned about. Anybody? Do I see one hand up in the back of the room?
This guy from Maryland has his hand raised. I believe, in fact I am quite confident, that this FBI investigation is real and matters significantly to the agent(s) undertaking it. I do not know how it will shake it, and I have no prediction regarding same, but I do very much believe that this is a big deal to the FBI agent(s) on the case.
Wow just found it in water cooler section. And locked! Glad I didn’t buy anything in that auction because I’d have no idea what was going on with them anymore.
Whenever members want to throw snide remarks my way then the repercussions are not going to be what those members want. Just like when you said "so sorry" to me in your thread you wanted to be on the front page. And then when I have had enough with those members, those members will be gone. I have found that weeding out malcontents is not only good for me but good for the forum. Carry on.....and so sorry :).
CuriousGeorge
12-16-2019, 07:49 AM
Yeah, and eventually like every organization on the face of the earth they sit around at some point and decide budgeting, priorities for the coming year, which things merit continued attention, staffing needs, etc. I see the FBI in the paper every day now. . . . .and it ain't about baseball cards. . . . .
You must have access to better information about what’s going on with them and this investigation than I do so I will have to defer to you.
Peter_Spaeth
12-16-2019, 08:19 AM
Whenever members want to throw snide remarks my way then the repercussions are not going to be what those members want. Just like when you said "so sorry" to me in your thread you wanted to be on the front page. And then when I have had enough with those members, those members will be gone. I have found that weeding out malcontents is not only good for me but good for the forum. Carry on.....and so sorry :).
If legitimate questions about advertisers are now suddenly off limits, count me as a malcontent I guess. Not the forum I've known for all these years.
If legitimate questions about advertisers are now suddenly off limits, count me as a malcontent I guess. Not the forum I've known for all these years.
It was the snide remark that tipped the boat not the question.
If you make those kind of remarks then you will be in the same boat as they are.
It is each members call how they want to participate. It is the same forum as always I am just taking less BS from the members. Had I truly been "protecting" an advertiser then the thread would have been deleted. Each member can make their own assumptions but the best way to participate here is not going to be rubbing me the wrong way, on purpose.
Peter_Spaeth
12-16-2019, 08:29 AM
It was the snide remark that tipped the boat not the question.
If you make those kind of remarks then you will be in the same boat as they are.
It is each members call how they want to participate. It is the same forum as always I am just taking less BS from the members. Had I truly been "protecting" an advertiser then the thread would have been deleted. Each member can make their own assumptions but the best way to participate here is not going to be rubbing me the wrong way, on purpose.
No, when one thread gets moved off the main page and another gets locked, it's not the same forum.
CuriousGeorge
12-16-2019, 08:50 AM
It was the snide remark that tipped the boat not the question.
If you make those kind of remarks then you will be in the same boat as they are.
It is each members call how they want to participate. It is the same forum as always I am just taking less BS from the members. Had I truly been "protecting" an advertiser then the thread would have been deleted. Each member can make their own assumptions but the best way to participate here is not going to be rubbing me the wrong way, on purpose.
I really don’t understand why legitimate issues whether with auction houses or elsewhere, advertisers or not, are problems for you or anyone? Isn’t that the point of a message board such as this one and to receive feedback that may shed additional light on your perspective? I didn’t think the purpose was for comments to only be in accordance with the views of the moderator. If you don’t want me to post anymore just tell me and you won’t need to ban me, I will just stop posting so let me know. And there was no snide remark. I honestly don’t look all over the board to see who the advertisers are before I post.
Rhotchkiss
12-16-2019, 08:55 AM
I really don’t understand why legitimate issues whether with auction houses or elsewhere, advertisers or not, are problems for you or anyone? Isn’t that the point of a message board such as this one and to receive feedback that may shed additional light on your perspective? I didn’t think the purpose was for comments to only be in accordance with the views of the moderator. If you don’t want me to post anymore just tell me and you won’t need to ban me, I will just stop posting so let me know. And there was no snide remark. I honestly don’t look all over the board to see who the advertisers are before I post.
Deep breath, shake hands, move on.
t206fanatic
12-16-2019, 09:02 AM
Moving a thread to the "water cooler" is akin to deleting it for some newer members of the board, myself included. I didn't know that sub-forum existed until now.
ullmandds
12-16-2019, 09:43 AM
It was the snide remark that tipped the boat not the question.
If you make those kind of remarks then you will be in the same boat as they are.
It is each members call how they want to participate. It is the same forum as always I am just taking less BS from the members. Had I truly been "protecting" an advertiser then the thread would have been deleted. Each member can make their own assumptions but the best way to participate here is not going to be rubbing me the wrong way, on purpose.
This makes no sense...punish the member...not the whole board/community!
If sensorship is the new norm here...net54 will become irrelevant.
perezfan
12-16-2019, 12:45 PM
Moving a thread to the "water cooler" is akin to deleting it for some newer members of the board, myself included. I didn't know that sub-forum existed until now.
It’s akin to “wishing it into the corn field” (for you Twilight Zone Fans).
I also don’t see why it was necessary to move and lock that thread. If anything, the active thread would’ve given the Crazy Uncle folks an opportunity to respond, and bring some resolution to the issues presented.
It might have served as even better advertising for them, than the banner ad itself (had they handled it properly, and responded with explanations, solutions and empathy). Now (never having heard their side of things) I will be less likely to utilize their services.
I always have more respect for those businesses who aren’t afraid to post here, communicate freely, and address things openly. REA, LOTG and Inside the Park immediately come to mind as being open, honest and trustworthy with their posts here.
Peter_Spaeth
12-16-2019, 01:19 PM
Aaron clearly wasn't going to respond but that's not the point. The hallmark of this Board, as the moderator himself has pointed out many times, has been that people are free to say what they wish about any business including advertisers as long as their name is behind it.
Moving the Leland's thread to the water cooler, and moving the Crazy Uncle thread there and locking it, seem inconsistent with past practice.
ullmandds
12-16-2019, 01:27 PM
aaron clearly wasn't going to respond but that's not the point. The hallmark of this board, as the moderator himself has pointed out many times, has been that people are free to say what they wish about any business including advertisers as long as their name is behind it.
Moving the leland's thread to the water cooler, and moving the crazy uncle thread there and locking it, seem inconsistent with past practice.
agreed!
kateighty
12-17-2019, 07:53 PM
Well said friends (even you Steven!) This is exactly why I stopped coming here. I love old school cards as much as everyone else. Leon's statements in this thread demonstrates how he chases people off when they tick him off. It's not ok. Just a member choosing how to participate. Not sorry!
999Tony
01-20-2020, 04:14 PM
What was the point of this original thread, not to be critical....Were you being sarcastic that you are just a drop in the bucket and the PWCC steamroller rolls on. Or were you trying to say people like yourself are dropping out of their auctions and indeed deflating their final sales prices/bottom line?
Sorry. Didn't check back on this thread. Point was kinda both. My hope is that my one small data point is joined by lots of others to the point where people decide to use a different auction company. But I recognize that PWCC mostly sells high dollar graded cards, and as I am not in that market, my action is likely not to have any effect on PWCC.
And I really was annoyed that I can't/won't bid on those cards. (Did recently pick up one lot of Butterfingers here, and some more on ebay but keep ignoring those on PWCC --there have been some more listed).
BeanTown
01-20-2020, 05:00 PM
Kinda interesting to see PWCC realize a price 3X higher what the same card and grade got from a Heritage auction 6 months earlier.
Johnny630
01-20-2020, 05:50 PM
Kinda interesting to see PWCC realize a price 3X higher what the same card and grade got from a Heritage auction 6 months earlier.
Everything is gold they touch, wow what Marketing!! Investment Assets Marketplace Vaults
bnorth
01-20-2020, 07:32 PM
Kinda interesting to see PWCC realize a price 3X higher what the same card and grade got from a Heritage auction 6 months earlier.
There is nothing to see here, it's just the difference between a top notch AH and the scrubs. PWCC is honest and the best in the business, just ask any of the great members on here who still consign to and buy from them.
What next are you going to say something bad about PSA. The greatest company in the world. If you don't believe me, again just ask any of our great members who still submit to them.
Johnny630
01-20-2020, 07:37 PM
There is nothing to see here, it's just the difference between a top notch AH and the scrubs. PWCC is honest and the best in the business, just ask any of the great members on here who still consign to and buy from them.
What next are you going to say something bad about PSA. The greatest company in the world. If you don't believe me, again just ask any of our great members who still submit to them.
Exactly!!!
Ben as sad as the Above is that you said, it’s 100% factual. It’s all about the Money People are Brainwashed by the oh this slab will make my card worth more and super easy to sell...we can consign to a auction house who will call my card a Asset Critical Blue Chip Investment Piece you could even join a vault club to re-list till you get your favorite price....it’s Gold Jerry Gold
Kenny Cole
01-20-2020, 07:54 PM
There is nothing to see here, it's just the difference between a top notch AH and the scrubs. PWCC is honest and the best in the business, just ask any of the great members on here who still consign to and buy from them.
What next are you going to say something bad about PSA. The greatest company in the world. If you don't believe me, again just ask any of our great members who still submit to them.
I threw up in my mouth a little reading that. I hate that what you said is true, but it is.
Phil68
01-21-2020, 08:40 AM
Exactly!!!
....it’s Gold Jerry Gold
:D
outSTANDing!
Fuddjcal
01-25-2020, 10:46 AM
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=15480369&postcount=6332
What's another 18K between friends?
Just add it to the multi billion dollar fraud:D
conor912
01-25-2020, 10:56 AM
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=15480369&postcount=6332
What's another 18K between friends?
Just add it to the multi billion dollar fraud:D
The overlay is a nice touch, albeit hard to look at for too long. Absolutely crazy to me that that fraction of a millimeter is worth $18k to someone.
Johnny630
01-25-2020, 11:25 AM
This is absolutely Abhorrent........
Bleach Trimm Golden Arm for $18,000 wow
This is Fraud Is Rampant in Many Ends
I’m about to unleash my inner Chuck.....
This market is so tainted.....card could be cracked and re slabbed by awful Opinion Givers PSA
I see no happy ending in sight
Registry is False
Pop Report is False
MarketPlace is False and Highly Manipulated
Get Out While You Can