What Would You Do With This Forum Transaction?

[Leon]

I received a pm yesterday from a very long time board member and they would like to get some additional thoughts on this situation below. The card in question is valued at around $400 (at time of transaction.)
Some identifying info has been edited with xx's
**The time frame from the transaction date to now is actually 4 1/2 yrs.


"After a few years of relative inactivity, I find myself getting back into the hobby. One of the first things I’ve done is take a look at my collection. While doing this, I noticed a card that doesn’t fit properly in its PSA slab. It is a so-called “maraca” card, with space between the card and the inner edges of the holder. Here is a scan I’ve had listed here on Net54 since 2016:

(xx)

I bought this through the BST a few years ago. At the time, I had PSA reholder it. There was an error on the flip. They slabbed a Topps card as O Pee Chee. Here is the BST thread:

(xx)

Everything went well at he time, so I didn’t give this a second thought until going through my cards over the weekend. Given the recent news regarding PSA holders and trimmed cards, I’m concerned (nearly certain) this (xx) card may be altered.

Even though all the “evidence” is there in the original BST thread, I am unsure whether it is appropriate to ask the seller for a refund. After all, a few years have gone by since the transaction.

Has it been too long? Was it my fault for not noticing? Did having it reholdered negate my chance of ever returning this? Or, perhaps, the card really is fine and I’m just being paranoid.

My goodness, this hobby can be complicated sometimes. Any advice you can give would be appreciated."




.

[bnorth]

The 2 big things for me is 1) it is in a new slab 2) the length of time that has passed. Personally for me either of those make the card not returnable.

It never hurts t ask for a return on a altered card but you can easily get the same response of "pound sand" like has happened on here before.

[swarmee]

I would say:
1) Cards may not fit their holders all the time.
2) Card is probably not trimmed.
3) We are way outside the return window.
4) Not enough information.

Way forward: if you are concerned about the card being altered, inspect it yourself for trimming (bat ears, unusual cut, etc) and if you can find some, send it back to PSA under their grade guarantee by submitting for a review. If PSA says it's now trimmed, they owe the difference between an altered and a true card in that condition.
If PSA says it is not trimmed and reholders it with a current slab, they may use one that now fits the card better so the shortness in holder effect is no longer evident.

[perezfan]

Completely agree with John... perfect response.

Return it to PSA under their guarantee, and just take it from there.

[DeanH3]

Sorry for any harshness, but this is getting ridiculous. Returning a card after 4+ years? Craziness.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What would Steve Sloan say to do?:eek::mad:

[Rhotchkiss]

Ben and John hit the nail on the head. I agree wholeheartedly with both.

I have a PSA-holdered card I bought off BST that, it turns out, used to sit in an SGC A flip. I sent it into PSA under the guarantee and they affirmed their opinion of a numerical grade; it now sits in a new holder but with the old/original PSA cert#. While I am skeptical, it’s all I can do; and, theoretically, they are the experts ;)

[HRBAKER]

Lots of cards sitting in these holders that are altered have been purchased longer than four years ago IMO, lots. Why were they not inspected thoroughly at the time of purchase and also in the interim - bc they were certified, rectified and sanctified by the experts. Who are the experts? You know the self proclaimed, heavily promoted and recently undressed ones. Agree wholeheartedly the card goes back to the experts in this case.

If the card is altered I hope this works out for you.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ben and John hit the nail on the head. I agree wholeheartedly with both.

I have a PSA-holdered card I bought off BST that, it turns out, used to sit in an SGC A flip. I sent it into PSA under the guarantee and they affirmed their opinion of a numerical grade; it now sits in a new holder but with the old/original PSA cert#. While I am skeptical, it’s all I can do; and, theoretically, they are the experts ;)

That's the loophole in the guarantee of course -- they have to agree the card they slabbed in the first place is altered. They can control their payout just by saying it isn't, whether they're right or not.

[BigBeerGut]

It is not a hobby
It is a business
Happy Turkey To All !
MJD

[BigBeerGut]

Sorry for any harshness, but this is getting ridiculous. Returning a card after 4+ years? Craziness.

Buyer Beware
If the PSA slab is good then buyer is happy
If the PSA slab is no good then it is the owners fault not PSA?

MJD

[Luke]

Agree with John's reply. Asking for a return after 4 years in this case would be in poor taste imo.

4 years is a long time. The seller could be out of the hobby and/or not have a spare $400 laying around.

If the sale was fraudulent in some way, that's another story.

[irishdenny]

"Buy the card, Not Flip!"
A lil ways back, Sumone suggested this to me!

This Started back when PSA Slabbed the PSA 8 Wagner.
i wonder why!?!? :rolleyes:

i've purchased Numerical Graded Cards Knowing thay were Trimmed, Altered etc...
i've had Cards Reviewed wit an "A" that were given a Number!

If we All Honestly went through Our Collections and thought about how the Hobby has changed in the past 20 years ...
a whole mess of us would find at least one card that could fall inta the Same Category as the OP's Possibly Trimmed(maybe not Trimmed?) Slabbed Thought!

in Ending... if it were me that Sold You the Card!? ...
i would take it Back... if it was Prewar!!! ;)

[EvilKing00]

1- sounds like the buyer is unsure if its a trimmed card

2- 2 years is a long time

3- its been reholdered

I dont think a refund is warranted with these issues

[Johnny630]

That's the loophole in the guarantee of course -- they have to agree the card they slabbed in the first place is altered. They can control their payout just by saying it isn't, whether they're right or not.

Exactly it’s just their opinion....prove it.

[japhi]

He should crack it out and THEN initiate the return. Obviously.

[doug.goodman]

The seller no longer has any connection to this card and in my humble OPINION (similar to that of the people who sell their opinions on cards, except I have a higher rate of being correct) would be justified in responding to communication requesting a refund, with the word "no".

As Denny said, it sounds like the buyer didn't actually buy the card...

Doug

[aconte]

Agree with those that say it is too long to do a return. We need to be
realistic with any return in my opinion. 30-60 days would be my max
in most cases.

[Mark17]

The seller no longer has any connection to this card and in my humble OPINION (similar to that of the people who sell their opinions on cards, except I have a higher rate of being correct) would be justified in responding to communication requesting a refund, with the word "no".

As Denny said, it sounds like the buyer didn't actually buy the card...

Doug

Agree.

He also doesn't have any new information that he didn't have when the deal was made. No TPG has given an opinion other than the original numeric grade. Not saying that matters much. But it's like the guy is saying, basically, "Hey, it took me 4 years to actually look at this card I bought, and now I think it looks a bit small, so I'm not sure I'm happy with the deal.

There are at least 3 reasons no return should be accepted, including:
1. Card not in original slab
2. Way too long
3. No real reason - nothing has changed except the reholder


Any one of these reasons by itself is enough to tell the buyer (complainer) that there will be no return or exchange IMO.

[Fred]

He should crack it out and THEN initiate the return. Obviously.

If this was fleabay and the card was bought with paypal, then the assumption would be that he could get a full refund from the seller.... :(

Been a LONG time, card is no longer in the original slab, not sure how that could be fair to the seller. As someone mentioned, PSA will place cards in slabs/holders that are not a complete corner to corner fit for the holder.

Hate to say this but I'm guessing this is the response that Leon was expecting and wanted to be give the collector a little food for thought on the topic.

Looks like Leon has a little King Solomon in him.... :p

[bnorth]

Agree.

He also doesn't have any new information that he didn't have when the deal was made. No TPG has given an opinion other than the original numeric grade. Not saying that matters much. But it's like the guy is saying, basically, "Hey, it took me 4 years to actually look at this card I bought, and now I think it looks a bit small, so I'm not sure I'm happy with the deal.

There are at least 3 reasons no return should be accepted, including:
1. Card not in original slab
2. Way too long
3. No real reason - nothing has changed except the reholder


Any one of these reasons by itself is enough to tell the buyer (complainer) that there will be no return or exchange IMO.

I can't believe you posted the bold part after all you posted in the GAI thread.:confused::D

[Buythatcard]

What if I sold a card as Altered 4 years ago and the buyer decided to send it in to another grading company and it comes back with a numerical grade? Suppose I only sold it for $50.00, and now its worth $500 in the graded slab, am I entitled to a refund from the buyer?

I would think not. Just as I think that this buyer has no right to go after the seller after 4 years.

[Johnny630]

How about just move on and be happy :-) life is to short. You win some you lose some that’s all. Be happy

[ullmandds]

How about just move on and be happy :-) life is to short. You win some you lose some that’s all. Be happy

exactly...again...everyone has to "win" all the time! WTF happened to you win some you lose some. I've sold a handful of cards over the years deemed AUTHENTIC by usually SGC...at a minimal price on the BST only to show up in a PSA holder shortly thereafter at a pretty high grade for the issue....only to sell at multiples of what I sold for.

[Johnny630]

exactly...again...everyone has to "win" all the time! WTF happened to you win some you lose some. I've sold a handful of cards over the years deemed AUTHENTIC by usually SGC...at a minimal price on the BST only to show up in a PSA holder shortly thereafter at a pretty high grade for the issue....only to sell at multiples of what I sold for.

Right just like when they wanna buy a card they beat the seller down will Never pay asking price even if it’s very fair. Then it’s vice versa when they wanna sell they want every last penny out of their card. It never changes with some people. They have to feel like they win, you’re correct.

[bnorth]

Right just like when they wanna buy a card they beat the seller down will Never pay asking price even if it’s very fair. Then it’s vice versa when they wanna sell they want every last penny out of their card. It never changes with some people. They have to feel like they win, you’re correct.

Hey, if you don't like selling, buying and trading with me just stop doing it and quit complaining.:rolleyes:;):D

[Johnny630]

Hey, if you don't like selling and buying from me just stop doing it and quit complaining.:rolleyes:;):D

Exactly geez life is to short it’s comical really.

[Sean]

Agree.

He also doesn't have any new information that he didn't have when the deal was made. No TPG has given an opinion other than the original numeric grade. Not saying that matters much. But it's like the guy is saying, basically, "Hey, it took me 4 years to actually look at this card I bought, and now I think it looks a bit small, so I'm not sure I'm happy with the deal.

There are at least 3 reasons no return should be accepted, including:
1. Card not in original slab
2. Way too long
3. No real reason - nothing has changed except the reholder


Any one of these reasons by itself is enough to tell the buyer (complainer) that there will be no return or exchange IMO.

+1 When is a transaction ever final if someone can come back 4 1/2 years later and expect a return and refund?

[Tyruscobb]

So, a buyer wants to potentially ask for a refund simply based on a bunch almost half a decade later and after changing slabs? He can't be serious.

[Flintboy]

Send to PSA for review, they say altered then they would be responsible for making you whole. I still can’t figure out people on this board who think it’s someone else’s responsibility other than PSA’s to refund/make whole a card that is incorrectly graded or is outed by BODA.

[Gradedcardman]

+1 When is a transaction ever final if someone can come back 4 1/2 years later and expect a return and refund?

+ 1

[Mark17]

I can't believe you posted the bold part after all you posted in the GAI thread.:confused::D

Bart,
In the last thread, due mostly to some of Peter's reasoning, I came around to the point of view that if people could crack out cards then return them, it would create way too many problems going forward.

You might've had me blocked by then... :D

In this case, the guy has PSA saying the card is good, so he has even less of a case. Plus, of course, the time elapsed.

[bnorth]

Bart,
In the last thread, due mostly to some of Peter's reasoning, I came around to the point of view that if people could crack out cards then return them, it would create way too many problems going forward.

You might've had me blocked by then... :D

In this case, the guy has PSA saying the card is good, so he has even less of a case. Plus, of course, the time elapsed.

Glad to see you came around.:)

LOL, I don't block anybody. Even the complete idiots(not referring to you) on here make great posts once in a while.

I took it the card was just sent in to fix the mistake on the flip without a review.

[Mark17]

I took it the card was just sent in to fix the mistake on the flip without a review.

Right but the original PSA opinion was that it deserved a grade, so there was no (try not to laugh) "professional" opinion otherwise.

[seanofjapan]

This raises a good question about what the informal "statute of limitations" is on claims related to transactions here and perhaps setting out a definite time limit for all transactions would be helpful.

4 1/2 years is just way too long. The time frame for claims should reflect a reasonable amount of time that the buyer has to assess an item, balanced against the seller's desire for some finality.

At most this should take months (give a buyer some time to examine it, send it in to a grader and receive their grade if they want, show it to some friends etc, also maybe factoring in a few weeks grace period since not everyone has the time to do that right away), not years.

[ullmandds]

This raises a good question about what the informal "statute of limitations" is on claims related to transactions here and perhaps setting out a definite time limit for all transactions would be helpful.

4 1/2 years is just way too long. The time frame for claims should reflect a reasonable amount of time that the buyer has to assess an item, balanced against the seller's desire for some finality.

At most this should take months (give a buyer some time to examine it, send it in to a grader and receive their grade if they want, show it to some friends etc, also maybe factoring in a few weeks grace period since not everyone has the time to do that right away), not years.


Soooooo... With PSA’s awesome turnaround times and expertise on the subject...is 7 months what youre suggesting?

[doug.goodman]

Let's remember that the people who get paid for their opinions have had the card in question in their hands - TWICE.

The attached picture has nothing to do with the card in question, I just like to post it.

Doug

[Peter_Spaeth]

This raises a good question about what the informal "statute of limitations" is on claims related to transactions here and perhaps setting out a definite time limit for all transactions would be helpful.

4 1/2 years is just way too long. The time frame for claims should reflect a reasonable amount of time that the buyer has to assess an item, balanced against the seller's desire for some finality.

At most this should take months (give a buyer some time to examine it, send it in to a grader and receive their grade if they want, show it to some friends etc, also maybe factoring in a few weeks grace period since not everyone has the time to do that right away), not years.

Why does a buyer need months to assess a card? When I buy a card I assess it in 15 minutes. If subsequently it turns out it's no good, absent some intentional fraud, I view that as on me.

(If a guarantee a card will grade is part of the deal, I would view it differently. But that's something that needs to be clear up front.)

[Neal]

Unless completely misrepresented in the listing or damaged in transit, a seller should not be held responsible for any refund. Just my opinion.

[seanofjapan]

Why does a buyer need months to assess a card? When I buy a card I assess it in 15 minutes. If subsequently it turns out it's no good, absent some intentional fraud, I view that as on me.

(If a guarantee a card will grade is part of the deal, I would view it differently. But that's something that needs to be clear up front.)

The starting point of the debate was whether 4.5 years was too much, so I was simply arguing that it should be much less than that and "months" would be a maximum, not necessarily the ideal.

I don' t think 15 minutes is a reasonable standard since we're talking about the entire transaction, not just how long it takes someone to look at a card. You gotta give the postal system some time to deliver the card and the person a reasonable amount of time given what might be a busy schedule to actually open it up and examine it.

Also with higher value transactions at least I think its reasonable to factor in some time for the buyer to submit it to PSA or whatever and if a card they bought advertised as Nrmt or whatever comes back "Altered" they should be entitled to raise a claim for that provided they do so in a reasonable amount of time (taking into consideration postal times, whatever the grading company takes, etc).

I don't know, am I wrong about this? I've never made a high value transaction so I have no idea what the expectations are.

[slightlyrounded]

Brings me back to that old Russian saying: “Trust, but wait half a decade to verify”

[Peter_Spaeth]

The starting point of the debate was whether 4.5 years was too much, so I was simply arguing that it should be much less than that and "months" would be a maximum, not necessarily the ideal.

I don' t think 15 minutes is a reasonable standard since we're talking about the entire transaction, not just how long it takes someone to look at a card. You gotta give the postal system some time to deliver the card and the person a reasonable amount of time given what might be a busy schedule to actually open it up and examine it.

Also with higher value transactions at least I think its reasonable to factor in some time for the buyer to submit it to PSA or whatever and if a card they bought advertised as Nrmt or whatever comes back "Altered" they should be entitled to raise a claim for that provided they do so in a reasonable amount of time (taking into consideration postal times, whatever the grading company takes, etc).

I don't know, am I wrong about this? I've never made a high value transaction so I have no idea what the expectations are.

It seems to me if a buyer wants a right of return contingent on the outcome of a third party grader's opinion, he should negotiate it up front along with a time frame.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless completely misrepresented in the listing or damaged in transit, a seller should not be held responsible for any refund. Just my opinion.

I want to return the Johnston Cookies Aaron I bought from you 5 years ago.:D

[Neal]

I want to return the Johnston Cookies Aaron I bought from you 5 years ago.:DDone
Send it back!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Leon]

The person knows they could just sell it as is. But he is honest and won't do that. For the record I told him I thought he should send it in for a PSA review, then go from there. I also thought it's been too long to go back to the seller. It seems this card wasn't looked at until this scandal broke. That's the reason for the lapse in time.

[LEHR]

Even if the card is trimmed the buyer has waited FAR too long to request a refund.

[bigfish]

Sorry for any harshness, but this is getting ridiculous. Returning a card after 4+ years? Craziness.




Cheers Dean

[bobbyw8469]

Ben and John hit the nail on the head. I agree wholeheartedly with both.

I have a PSA-holdered card I bought off BST that, it turns out, used to sit in an SGC A flip. I sent it into PSA under the guarantee and they affirmed their opinion of a numerical grade; it now sits in a new holder but with the old/original PSA cert#. While I am skeptical, it’s all I can do; and, theoretically, they are the experts ;)
So who got it right and who got it wrong? Are we to believe SGC are the experts or PSA is the expert? This is the only thing I hate about grading as everything is subjective to the eyes of humans.

[bobbyw8469]

I wish someone would send back that Namath rookie I sold. I would gladly give them their 2k back.

[maniac_73]

wow 4 years? And its a question?? Is this real? lol

[Snapolit1]

4+ years? yeah, the statute of limitations has expired. Move on.

I have no doubt that I have unknowingly sold cards to people that someone may have monkeyed with. And I am sure I've prob. bought a couple.

I'm not sure even 4 months is acceptable to try to undo a sale.

[icurnmedic]

Why does a buyer need months to assess a card? When I buy a card I assess it in 15 minutes. If subsequently it turns out it's no good, absent some intentional fraud, I view that as on me.

(If a guarantee a card will grade is part of the deal, I would view it differently. But that's something that needs to be clear up front.)

I agree with this, probably on my own island on this , but I feel a week AFTER the buyer receives the card is more than enough time to finalize the transaction. I as a seller am not entitled to Buy a Card back I might have regretted selling.

[chalupacollects]

ummm 4.50 years to return something no way... I don't think Target or Kohl's would even go that far...Personally 90 days max should be sufficient to open the mail look at the cards and send for grading under a quicker turnaround if that is the issue...

[drcy]

Not a direct answer to the question because I'm not saying a forgery or scam should never be returnable after a certain amount of time, but the buyer has an obligation to examine and have examined the item he bought in a timely manner.

[Snapolit1]

Not a direct answer to the question because I'm not saying a forgery or scam should never be returnable after a certain amount of time, but the buyer has an obligation to examine and have examined the item he bought in a timely manner.

There is a case people learn about in law school on occasion where some dude buys a show dog and it turns out that the dog can’t reproduce because he has only one ball. And the court has some good discussion of whether there is a reasonable expectation that it’s on the buyer if he doesn’t manipulate the dogs scrotum as a last check. Part of the job I guess. Guy lost.

[1952boyntoncollector]

+1 When is a transaction ever final if someone can come back 4 1/2 years later and expect a return and refund?

when there is fraud or if card was stolen to begin with are a few ..there are more ways as well

[1952boyntoncollector]

4+ years? yeah, the statute of limitations has expired. Move on.

I have no doubt that I have unknowingly sold cards to people that someone may have monkeyed with. And I am sure I've prob. bought a couple.

I'm not sure even 4 months is acceptable to try to undo a sale.

funny, there are many states in which the SOL is more than 4 years depending on how the transaction was conducted..... but what do i know , i live on my mother's couch according to one poster...

issue will be legal v moral thing to do.

personally since the holder was changed etc, i would agree to return but he can always ask...

[Mark17]

Imagine the complications had it been a trade. Let's say it was still in the original holder, and only 3 weeks had passed, but it had been a trade, and the other fellow then made another trade with someone else, so the first transaction could not be undone.......

If the buyer has some period of time to return the card, does the same apply to a trade, which would mean, in that case, the cards traded, on both sides, would need to be essentially frozen in the other guy's collection until the return time period expires?

[seanofjapan]

I agree with this, probably on my own island on this , but I feel a week AFTER the buyer receives the card is more than enough time to finalize the transaction. I as a seller am not entitled to Buy a Card back I might have regretted selling.

Yes, but as a seller you don’t have to worry about the cash you received not being as described. I think its reasonable to give the buyer a bit of time to check the card to verify it.

[buymycards]

There is a case people learn about in law school on occasion where some dude buys a show dog and it turns out that the dog can’t reproduce because he has only one ball. And the court has some good discussion of whether there is a reasonable expectation that it’s on the buyer if he doesn’t manipulate the dogs scrotum as a last check. Part of the job I guess. Guy lost.

You could send the dog to PSA but they would miss the fact that the dog only had one ball. They would probably grade it a 10.

[Mark17]

You could send the dog to PSA but they would miss the fact that the dog only had one ball. They would probably grade it a 10.

I had my male dog trimmed, so I suppose it would be graded "Altered."

[icurnmedic]

Yes, but as a seller you don’t have to worry about the cash you received not being as described. I think its reasonable to give the buyer a bit of time to check the card to verify it.

True but as a seller I do have to worry about a buyer canceling the transaction through their credit card company and me losing the product and the money. Also when you’re talking about an extended length of time, I sometimes feel that buyers remorse kicks in. Anyone collecting and buying particularly newer stuff realize that sometimes you pay More today but in six months is worth considerably less. Is that a reason for return? I personally don’t feel like it is. Many folks buy and sell as a hobby and may not have the extra funds lying around particularly if it is a high-end card. I know I don’t. Just my thoughts. Not an expert on the situation.