Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[toolifedave]

I sold a GIA slabbed card and buyer cracked it out to try to get a better grade.

He then asked to return claiming it wasn't authentic, but PSA said it was altered and never said it wasn't authentic.

I accidentally hit accepting return but didn't know at the time the card was cracked out.

The buyer said before it was sent to me on ebay it was no longer in the slab and Ebay said I still had to accept the return.

They even have a policy under conditions of returned item policy for Art and Collectibles. "item must not be removed from sealed packaging" but still made me accept the return.

Can you tell me what they recommend I can do since the card sold for over $5,000?

i have also been in close contact with Ebay high value department who said I had to accept the return even when card is crack out and advised it may not be the same card as sold since it no longer was in the slab which wasn't even returned to me.

Ebay claims after many many phone calls that GAI is not approved grading company and the buyer has the right to regrade but it didn't say that on "items must not be removed from a sealed package" policy listed under Art and Collectibles.

Has anyone had to accept a return after selling a slab card and buyer cracked it out?

Thank you for your comments

[bobbyw8469]

Ebay sucks. This is totally not right. You did nothing wrong and are going to wind up taking it on the chin due to Ebay's "The buyer is always right" philosophy.

[chalupacollects]

Where does buyer live? If in USA, tell them you are reporting them to FBI fraud unit, file police reports for theft and don't forget to blast them on Blowout website. I would not let this go lightly. Also tell them you will take them to court...

Sometimes a little bit of pushback will help you get your item or money back.

Also recommend pushing yourself higher up the ebay food chain for help...

[toolifedave]

Dear Tim,

Thank you but a card was returned just cracked out so no proof of original, the police and USPS advised they don't handle these issues. I was thinking of writing a letter to Ebay CEO. I was wondering has anyone had this issue before and what the outcome was? Keep in mind I'm the seller.

[Leon]

The first thing to do, if the situation warrants it, is file a police report with your local department. They are the ones that are your first line of defense as that is where you pay taxes, you are in their jurisdiction, and so forth. The officer taking the report, and who probably takes lots of them, can give you a bit of procedural advice depending on the details. On the ebay stuff it sounds like you are up shi# creek :o without a paddle.

[AGuinness]

Dang, that is a bad situation. Sorry that it went south and good luck trying to get it resolved.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The first thing to do, if the situation warrants it, is file a police report with your local department. They are the ones that are your first line of defense as that is where you pay taxes, you are in their jurisdiction, and so forth. The officer taking the report, and who probably takes lots of them, can give you a bit of procedural advice depending on the details. On the ebay stuff it sounds like you are up shi# creek :o without a paddle.

He already said the police refused to handle it.

[bobbyw8469]

Dear Tim,

Thank you but a card was returned just cracked out so no proof of original, the police and USPS advised they don't handle these issues. I was thinking of writing a letter to Ebay CEO. I was wondering has anyone had this issue before and what the outcome was? Keep in mind I'm the seller.

I don't understand. You sold a GAI graded card. You did not get a GAI graded card back. How on earth can Ebay NOT side with you???

[Fuddjcal]

Ebay sucks. This is totally not right. You did nothing wrong and are going to wind up taking it on the chin due to Ebay's "The buyer is always right" philosophy.

Just send it in to PSA with Bobby, it will pass eventually. PSA is GAI anyway...

[Buythatcard]

That is total BS. If an item in not returned in the same condition as what you sent it in, then it's on the buyer.

Keep calling eBay until you get someone who understands your situation. Insist on speaking with a higher up. Keep calling until you are satisfied. Most people in customer service working for eBay are clueless on how things work. They do not look outside of the box.

Also, post the Buyers's username so he doesn't try to pull that with anybody else.

Good Luck!

[Exhibitman]

I don't understand this:

"I accidentally hit accepting return but didn't know at the time the card was cracked out."

How was it an 'accident' to accept the return if you did not know the card had been cracked out?

[bobbyw8469]

Just send it in to PSA with Bobby, it will pass eventually. PSA is GAI anyway...

You really are truly miserable and probably need to find a new hobby. One that makes you happier.

[nsaddict]

What was the time factor from sell date to return date? Imagine if everyone started doing this. The buyer could never lose only gain. Wtf?

[bigfanNY]

Can the op clarify one thing. He stated that it was in a GAI slab ..What was the grade? My point would be if it had a number grade and PSA said it was altered then I think he should take the return. Unfortunately we live in a new world where cards in slabs with number grades are getting proved altered ALL THE TIME. And I am not a lawyer but it would be very difficult to convince a judge and or jury that it was fraud on buyer when the fact is you sold an altered card on ebay. And dont we want ebay to stand up for us when we buy altered cards on ebay?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Assuming you have the same card back and can sell it again, was the GAI slab really adding much value to it anyhow?

[bigfanNY]

But if the cards value was affected by the number grade say a GAI 8 and is now PSA authentic then there is a big hit to cards value. And I understand if buyer did not try and cross over then card would not have lost value. But if this was a card altered by moser and sold by Brett originally and passed on a few times to an owner who did not know the pedigree. Then cracked for better grade and returned Altered, would anybody be siding with OP?

[toolifedave]

He asked for a return and later after I accepted the return advises
it was cracked out. Ebay high value team advised it didn’t
matter and they would stand by buyers for ebay money back policy.

[toolifedave]

Ebay sides with buyer per money back policy

[toolifedave]

No problem accepting same card in same slab but it was removed from slab.

You can keep card in slab for a crossover.

Reason for return was doesn’t seem authentic but it was
authentic.

[toolifedave]

What was the time factor from sell date to return date? Imagine if everyone started doing this. The buyer could never lose only gain. Wtf?
About 1 week

[jhs5120]

Try PayPal. I have had success there when eBay was a dead end. Tell PayPal that the buyer broke the item and returned the pieces. Don't explain the whole grading thing, or GAI or PSA. The buyer broke the item, and literally returned the broken plastic pieces.

When you emailed the buyer, he admitted to breaking the item (reference the email to him saying he "cracked" the slab) and try to take that approach.

Best of luck.

[toolifedave]

Assuming you have the same card back and can sell it again, was the GAI slab really adding much value to it anyhow?
Great question yes since they offered a number grade.

[toolifedave]

Try PayPal. I have had success there when eBay was a dead end. Tell PayPal that the buyer broke the item and returned the pieces. Don't explain the whole grading thing, or GAI or PSA. The buyer broke the item, and literally returned the broken plastic pieces.

When you emailed the buyer, he admitted to breaking the item (reference the email to him saying he"crack" the slab) and try to take that approach.

Best of luck.
Paypal will NOT open a claim if ebay had one. Thank you for the idea
and no slab or plastic pieces were returned. Just a card in PSA open plastic sleve.

[jchcollins]

Seems very odd to me that eBay would deem it “ok” for a buyer to crack a card out of any TPG slab and then claim it’s in the “same condition” for a return. The buyer materially changed what that card was as based on it’s description in your listing. I would find a way to keep fighting that.


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[Eric72]

Paypal will NOT open a claim if ebay had one. Thank you for the idea
and no slab or plastic pieces were returned. Just a card in PSA open plastic sleve.

He received the card, gave it to PSA, got the card back from PSA, and retuned it within one week after buying it from you?

[samosa4u]

How could eBay side with the buyer? He damaged the effing item! This makes no sense to me! Please post this idiot's username so I can block him.

[Mark17]

He then asked to return claiming it wasn't authentic, but PSA said it was altered and never said it wasn't authentic.



So did PSA put it in a slab with grade: A?

I don't understand why PSA would render an opinion of authentic without slabbing it. And if that is the case, it would seem the card was over-represented in the first place.

Assuming it was the same card, but that can be verified by pictures of the card you sent & the card you received back.

[ullmandds]

Aaaaaaaand what card may this be???

[D. Bergin]

He received the card, gave it to PSA, got the card back from PSA, and retuned it within one week after buying it from you?

I was thinking the same thing. :confused:

[wondo]

Dave,

Is the card the 1933 Goudey Gehrig GAI that sold last month? The dollar amount would explain the quick PSA turn around. Not many other high $$$ GAI cards been sold recently (a Ruth, but that one sold by same seller got positiive feedback).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-GOUDEY-LOU-GEHRIG-160-GAI-7-NMINT-VERY-RARE-SHARP-CORNERS-Not-PSA-or-SGC-/233363206677?hash=item365587f215%3Ag%3AA0oAAOSwlFF dmrVb&nma=true&si=W4qr25sil3FgngAMrtZMJVE7o0E%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[bigfanNY]

Again what about the fact that the card was not as advertised. It was in a case with a grade and later determined to be altered. I hate to think that I am in the minority that thinks if someone sells me an altered card I am not entitled to my money back. I can say 100% if I sold a card that was altered I would offer money back.
I completely understand and agree that the card should have stayed in its case when sent to PSA for crossover. Because it opens up the opportunity for fraud by sending back a different card. But that is not what happened. OP sold a card advertised as as graded (??? I dont know grade OP has not posted grade despite being asked to) and was later determined to be altered.
I also understand that since it is out of the case asking GAI to live up to it's grade is no longer possible. But fact is card was altered and buyer is entitled to refund. Just right thing to do.
Jonathan Sterling

[Exhibitman]

He asked for a return and later after I accepted the return advises
it was cracked out. Ebay high value team advised it didn’t
matter and they would stand by buyers for ebay money back policy.

Well that f**king sucks.

[icurnmedic]

He sold a GAI graded card! Not a PSA/BGS/SGC graded card. Seems he did the right thing, as far as he knew. Now the original item is Damaged.

[Leon]

There is a difference, at least where I live, in police investigating something or taking a report of it. A report doesn't mean they are doing anything but taking a report to get it on record. They don't have to investigate a report if you tell them you don't need that. Yesterday, I had a Collin County Deputy come to my house to fill out an internet fraud, police report/incident report. They aren't going to investigate it and it's ok. Bank of America (my bank) told me I need to report it for the record. So I did. I spoke a good bit with the deputy about it. He was very accommodating. We love our local law enforcement. I just need a report filed, I told him. He said no problem. I can't imagine the local authorities telling the op he can't even file a report? It is good to file a report regardless. Haven't you ever watched Judge Judy? She is my hero and my write in vote for next president (not getting political, it's a joke).

He already said the police refused to handle it.

[bobbyw8469]

Again what about the fact that the card was not as advertised. It was in a case with a grade and later determined to be altered. I hate to think that I am in the minority that thinks if someone sells me an altered card I am not entitled to my money back. I can say 100% if I sold a card that was altered I would offer money back.
I completely understand and agree that the card should have stayed in its case when sent to PSA for crossover. Because it opens up the opportunity for fraud by sending back a different card. But that is not what happened. OP sold a card advertised as as graded (??? I dont know grade OP has not posted grade despite being asked to) and was later determined to be altered.
I also understand that since it is out of the case asking GAI to live up to it's grade is no longer possible. But fact is card was altered and buyer is entitled to refund. Just right thing to do.
Jonathan Sterling

The buyer was gambling. He wanted to turn a GAI card into a PSA goldmine. Now the seller doesn't even get the GAI graded card back. This is a horrible situation and makes me NEVER WANT TO SELL A GAI CARD ON EBAY!!!! The buyer has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Very early GAI grade -- the ones that are supposed to be legit.

Question for the seller -- did you have either SGC or PSA review before you listed, at any point, and if not why not?

[toolifedave]

Seems very odd to me that eBay would deem it “ok” for a buyer to crack a card out of any TPG slab and then claim it’s in the “same condition” for a return. The buyer materially changed what that card was as based on it’s description in your listing. I would find a way to keep fighting that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I'm thinking about sending a letter to Ebay CEO and let him know what is happening.

Ebay has closed the case from their end.

[toolifedave]

He received the card, gave it to PSA, got the card back from PSA, and retuned it within one week after buying it from you?
Sent back to me unslabbed by PSA since they said the card was altered and I guess the buyer didn't want it slabbed authentic

[toolifedave]

Dave,

Is the card the 1933 Goudey Gehrig GAI that sold last month? The dollar amount would explain the quick PSA turn around. Not many other high $$$ GAI cards been sold recently (a Ruth, but that one sold by same seller got positiive feedback).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-GOUDEY-LOU-GEHRIG-160-GAI-7-NMINT-VERY-RARE-SHARP-CORNERS-Not-PSA-or-SGC-/233363206677?hash=item365587f215%3Ag%3AA0oAAOSwlFF dmrVb&nma=true&si=W4qr25sil3FgngAMrtZMJVE7o0E%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
yes

[samosa4u]

This is getting interesting. It looks like the guy who won this card has a very big feedback. He might be well known in the hobby.

[perezfan]

I'd trust the early GAI grade over the "PSA Goldmine" opinion any day of the week.

Seller got completely screwed, IMO. Once the buyer cracked it out, it should've been deemed non-returnable. Such a shame, and typical eBay to automatically side with the buyer. Their dumb "blanket policies" should not always apply in the collectibles arena. :mad:

[toolifedave]

Again what about the fact that the card was not as advertised. It was in a case with a grade and later determined to be altered. I hate to think that I am in the minority that thinks if someone sells me an altered card I am not entitled to my money back. I can say 100% if I sold a card that was altered I would offer money back.
I completely understand and agree that the card should have stayed in its case when sent to PSA for crossover. Because it opens up the opportunity for fraud by sending back a different card. But that is not what happened. OP sold a card advertised as as graded (??? I dont know grade OP has not posted grade despite being asked to) and was later determined to be altered.
I also understand that since it is out of the case asking GAI to live up to it's grade is no longer possible. But fact is card was altered and buyer is entitled to refund. Just right thing to do.
Jonathan Sterling
John, You make a good point. The reason for the return was the card wasn't authentic which is no true it is authentic. The buyer paid lower then market value due to GAI holder and wanted to cross over to PSA. He could have gotten authentic if he wanted but didn't and he could have crossover in slab but again didn't. I bought the original GAI card on Ebay many years ago and even had a screenshot of the sale for Ebay and buyer to see since at one point he thought I alerted the card which isn't true. We all know buying an GAI card has its risks but I didn't think a card can be sold on ebay then slab open an a "card" returned. The question is can a buyer open a slab and then return an unslabbed card for any reason. Maybe another buyers gets SGC graded card on EBay not happy sends to PSA to get a higher grade but they don't grade higher and decides to return unslabed card.

[Bigdaddy]

What if this was an autographed T206 that had been authenticated by one of the TPGs, but was then broken out and resubmitted only to come back as 'likely not authentic'?

Would that change anything? Seems like the same scenario to me.

[toolifedave]

I'd trust the early GAI grade over the "PSA Goldmine" opinion any day of the week.

Seller got completely screwed, IMO. Once the buyer cracked it out, it should've been deemed non-returnable. Such a shame, and typical eBay to automatically side with the buyer. Their dumb "blanket policies" should not always apply in the collectibles arena. :mad:
Ebay has a policy for art and collectibles that states a "items must not be removed from a sealed packaging" I find it interesting no one has stated they have returned a cracked open slab as a buyer or selling or even had or know anyone that had this happen too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd trust the early GAI grade over the "PSA Goldmine" opinion any day of the week.

Seller got completely screwed, IMO. Once the buyer cracked it out, it should've been deemed non-returnable. Such a shame, and typical eBay to automatically side with the buyer. Their dumb "blanket policies" should not always apply in the collectibles arena. :mad:

Whether the seller got screwed, to me, somewhat depends whether the card had previously been reviewed by PSA or SGC, which I've asked the OP but he hasn't answered yet.

[Eric72]

Sent back to me unslabbed by PSA since they said the card was altered and I guess the buyer didn't want it slabbed authentic

PSA sent the card back to you?

[irishdenny]

The Moment He Cracked the Card form it's GAI Slab, He Owned the Card!
He Told PSA So when he Sent it to them Out of the Slab and w/o Your Permission as the 3rd party.
He then Lied to You and Ebay by Not Telling He Removed the Card From it's Sealed Package and He did this in order to get Ebay's Aid!

From PSA's Submission Form:

12. If any cards are being submitted for a third
party, Customer represents and warrants that
such third party has agreed and accepted this
Agreement and has signed a duplicate copy
hereof where indicated. Customer agrees to provide that third party-signed copy to PSA at anytime upon its request.

He Could of just left it in the Slab when he Sent it to PSA as a "Review",
i do imagine that the Buyer wanted to See What PSA thoughts were with the Card Out of the GAI Holder... Only because The Buyer Assumed that Every TPG had Seen the Card in it's GAI Slab Already!

Please tell us who "The Cracker" is?
I wouldn't want him to do this to another!

This is Just Wrong in So Many Ways...

[toolifedave]

So did PSA put it in a slab with grade: A?

I don't understand why PSA would render an opinion of authentic without slabbing it. And if that is the case, it would seem the card was over-represented in the first place.

Assuming it was the same card, but that can be verified by pictures of the card you sent & the card you received back.
PSA didn't slab the card and said it was altered but my guess is the buyer didn't want it slabbed unless given a number grade.

[toolifedave]

Whether the seller got screwed, to me, somewhat depends whether the card had previously been reviewed by PSA or SGC, which I've asked the OP but he hasn't answered yet.
The buyer gave the card to PSA and they returned it unslabbed.

[toolifedave]

PSA sent the card back to you?
Buyer had PSA grade the card, and returned to me unslabbed since PSA didn't give a number grade as buyer wanted.

[BabyRuth]

This sounds like a crime has been committed. I would definitely contact my local police and file a report to get a documentation path started. I feel very bad for you, as you did nothing wrong here. So sad that some people are dishonest and would even think of doing something like this. Good thing he lost out on the Ruth you sold by 1 bid, or you would have another similar problem. I hope proper restitution is made to you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The buyer gave the card to PSA and they returned it unslabbed.

Did YOU previously review it, and if not why not?

[toolifedave]

The Moment He Cracked the Card form it's GAI Slab, He Owned the Card!
He Told PSA So when he Sent it to them Out of the Slab and w/o Your Permission as the 3rd party.
He then Lied to You and Ebay by Not Telling He Removed the Card From it's Sealed Package and He did this in order to get Ebay's Aid!

From PSA's Submission Form:

12. If any cards are being submitted for a third
party, Customer represents and warrants that
such third party has agreed and accepted this
Agreement and has signed a duplicate copy
hereof where indicated. Customer agrees to provide that third party-signed copy to PSA at anytime upon its request.

He Could of just left it in the Slab when he Sent it to PSA as a "Review",
i do imagine that the Buyer wanted to See What PSA thoughts were with the Card Out of the GAI Holder... Only because The Buyer Assumed that Every TPG had Seen the Card in it's GAI Slab Already!

Please tell us who "The Cracker" is?
I wouldn't want him to do this to another!

This is Just Wrong in So Many Ways...
Denny,

Thank you and I think you get it very clearly.

[toolifedave]

Did YOU previously review it, and if not why not?
I didn't have it reviewed by PSA

[Peter_Spaeth]

I didn't have it reviewed by PSA

Why not given how much more it would have been worth in a PSA or SGC slab?

[1952boyntoncollector]

What card was it?

We already had posters here say if damages arent worth more than 10,000..nobody would file a lawsuit...now people suggest to file a lawsuit on a 5,000 issue?

The person that bought the card could of always had PSA review it without breaking out the card

[Sean]

Double post

[Sean]

Assuming you have the same card back and can sell it again

The OP sold an altered card. Now, assuming he got the same card back, he hasn't lost anything. The GAI holder was incorrect, the card should not have gotten a numeric grade.

It sounds like the OP bought a card that turned out to be altered, and now he wanted to pass the loss on to the next buyer.

[jhs5120]

The OP sold an altered card. Now, assuming he got the same card back, he hasn't lost anything. The GAI holder was incorrect, the card should not have gotten a numeric grade.

It sounds like the OP bought a card that turned out to be altered, and now he wanted to pass the loss in to the next buyer.

The buyer returned the card cracked out of the previous holder

[Sean]

The buyer returned the card cracked out of the previous holder

A GAI holder that gave a numeric grade to an altered card.

[Rhotchkiss]

Can you please disclose the name of the buyer?

I feel the moment the buyer cracked it out of the GAI case, he altered (no pun intended) the item and thus should not be allowed to return it; at least the seller should not be forced to take the card back and give a refund.

That’s what I think. What I know is you are screwed, which sucks. Yet another reason why I don’t use eBay anymore.

[toolifedave]

There is a difference, at least where I live, in police investigating something or taking a report of it. A report doesn't mean they are doing anything but taking a report to get it on record. They don't have to investigate a report if you tell them you don't need that. Yesterday, I had a Collin County Deputy come to my house to fill out an internet fraud, police report/incident report. They aren't going to investigate it and it's ok. Bank of America (my bank) told me I need to report it for the record. So I did. I spoke a good bit with the deputy about it. He was very accommodating. We love our local law enforcement. I just need a report filed, I told him. He said no problem. I can't imagine the local authorities telling the op he can't even file a report? It is good to file a report regardless. Haven't you ever watched Judge Judy? She is my hero and my write in vote for next president (not getting political, it's a joke).
I will try to go to a different police station where i live and see if I can at least as you said get a report for the record.

[1952boyntoncollector]

A GAI holder that gave a numeric grade to an altered card.

So if this is done on the 250k Namath card that was graded by PSA and it was cracked out and submitted to SGC and they said its authentic but altered. The buyers can return the card as well because after all the card was in a PSA holder that was given a numeric grade to an altered card?

[JeremyW]

Can you please disclose the name of the buyer?

I feel the moment the buyer cracked it out of the GAI case, he altered (no pun intended) the item and thus should not be allowed to return it; at least the seller should not be forced to take the card back and give a refund.

That’s what I think. What I know is you are screwed, which sucks. Yet another reason why I don’t use eBay anymore.

This seems pretty obvious to me.

[tlhss]

Could you post the original description of the card you used in your sales ad on eBay?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I didn't have it reviewed by PSA

Because?

[JeremyW]

Could you post the original description of the card you used in your sales ad on eBay?

Post #30

[perezfan]

So if this is done on the 250k Namath card that was graded by PSA and it was cracked out and submitted to SGC and they said its authentic but altered. The buyers can return the card as well because after all the card was in a PSA holder that was given a numeric grade to an altered card?

Unless there was a different $250K Namath Card... Wasn't that card sold by Heritage (after it somehow jumped from a 7 to a 9?) How would eBay policies apply to that card? Unless you are asking if it was hypothetically re-listed on eBay after the Heritage sale, who would then be liable...

Wasn't the advent of TPG grading supposed to clear up these things, and clean up this hobby?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless there was a different $250K Namath Card... Wasn't that card sold by Heritage (after it somehow jumped from a 7 to a 9?) How would eBay policies apply to that card? Unless you are asking if it was hypothetically re-listed on eBay after the Heritage sale, who would then be liable...

Wasn't the advent of TPG grading supposed to clear up these things, and clean up this hobby?

For a while it did I think, sort of. It did hurt some of the more egregious SCD ad trimmers.

[DeanH3]

Early GAI cards can be argued that they have generous grades, just like many early PSA grades. But I'd be surprised if Baker missed an alteration on a card of this magnitude. Possible? Sure.

I don't agree that a buyer should be able to "gamble" on someone else's dime. Once the card is broken out, it's now the property of the buyer, period. JMHO.

[mq711]

I see both sides to this issue, buyer paid good money for a certain condition/unaltered card which upon further review he/she did not receive; everyone is always saying buy the card and not the slab. When it returned altered thus it wasn’t as advertised and a refund is proper. Now if the buyer changed out the card that is a different story and a criminal act otherwise not so.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see both sides to this issue, buyer paid good money for a certain condition/unaltered card which upon further review he/she did not receive; everyone is always saying buy the card and not the slab. When it returned altered thus it wasn’t as advertised and a refund is proper. Now if the buyer changed out the card that is a different story and a criminal act otherwise not so.

I think the question comes down to this. If I sell a card in a GAI slab, and don't say anything about it, am I implicitly warranting the card is unaltered? Or is the buyer taking the risk that it's altered, knowing it's in an inferior holder?

[CobbSpikedMe]

I was thinking the same thing. :confused:

Me too. I thought PSAs turnaround times were way long and to have this buyer get the card back from them within a week with an opinion of Authentic sounds pretty fishy to me. Sounds like he switched the card and returned a different card and kept the high dollar one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Me too. I thought PSAs turnaround times were way long and to have this buyer get the card back from them within a week with an opinion of Authentic sounds pretty fishy to me. Sounds like he switched the card and returned a different card and kept the high dollar one.

Cards worth this much have to be submitted at a high dollar, quick turnaround level. Plus he returned the card with the PSA rejection sticker, no?

[111gecko]

You crack it, you own it..period. This is BS.

[Goudey77]

You crack it, you own it..period. This is BS.

Bottom line. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Cards worth this much have to be submitted at a high dollar, quick turnaround level. Plus he returned the card with the PSA rejection sticker, no?

But getting it back inside a week? That's still pretty quick no?

If he included a PSA rejection sticker then I missed that above.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But getting it back inside a week? That's still pretty quick no?

If he included a PSA rejection sticker then I missed that above.

I thought he said it was returned in a PSA sleeve which implied to me it had the rejection sticker, but I could have misunderstood, the posts are not a model of clarity.

[Rhotchkiss]

Name and/or eBay handle of the buyer, please

[todeen]

Who do you bank with? I think i would alert my bank that this is a fraud case. Because I imagine the money has moved out of PayPal and ebay is going to have to get the money from you. If you don't pay, and ebay tries to claim money that you have ID'd as fraudulent, that might push this into legal action where the bank might help represent you.

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[bigfanNY]

I think the question comes down to this. If I sell a card in a GAI slab, and don't say anything about it, am I implicitly warranting the card is unaltered? Or is the buyer taking the risk that it's altered, knowing it's in an inferior holder?

I looked at the original ebay post and the seller clearly says " sharp corners" " Near mint condition"
Saying that is very VERY different than sayin GAI has graded it near mint. Seller sold this card as near mint and it came back as altered. So in the case out of the case he has no case.

[Buythatcard]

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.:confused:

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

[steve B]

He received the card, gave it to PSA, got the card back from PSA, and retuned it within one week after buying it from you?

Yeah, that timeline makes absolutely no sense at all.

I'm thinking it's a smooth swap of an auth card for a graded one and PSA wasn't involved at all.

[toolifedave]

I looked at the original ebay post and the seller clearly says " sharp corners" " Near mint condition"
Saying that is very VERY different than sayin GAI has graded it near mint. Seller sold this card as near mint and it came back as altered. So in the case out of the case he has no case.
I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, that timeline makes absolutely no sense at all.

I'm thinking it's a smooth swap of an auth card for a graded one and PSA wasn't involved at all.

I would assume the OP would know if he got back a different card than he sold? He hasn't complained about that, only the removal from the slab.

[Rhotchkiss]

I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

That's how 90 percent of the complaint threads end up Ryan, without naming names.

And I would still like to know why, if the OP thought he had a genuine unaltered Gehrig 7, he would let it go in a GAI holder at a fraction of what it would sell for in a real holder. But I can only ask the same question so many times before I lose interest.

[Tabe]

I see both sides on this. Buyer did not get what was advertised. Card was advertised as NMINT along with some nice keyword spamming in the auction title. Card was not NMINT, it was altered. So he's got a legit case for a return.

However, not cool to return it cracked out.

[seff]

Could you PM me his ebay user name. I'd like to block him. Thanks.

[Marchillo]

The buyer was gambling. He wanted to turn a GAI card into a PSA goldmine. Now the seller doesn't even get the GAI graded card back. This is a horrible situation and makes me NEVER WANT TO SELL A GAI CARD ON EBAY!!!! The buyer has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

This is exactly why this is the buyers fault. Assuming the OP didn’t know the card was altered (which I believe is true) the buyer took a gamble on a GAI slabbed card to turn it into a big win. We’ve all seen cards graded by low end companies thinking what the PSA or SGC grade might be and for me it’s usually a pass for this reason.

Send in the card for crossover in the slab. The buyer didn’t do this because he didn’t want the negative influence of a GAI slab/grade.

Good luck to the OP

[toledo_mudhen]

Person that won the card has over 11K feedback with 99% Positive.... This whole thing seems just a bit odd.

[Republicaninmass]

What if this was an autographed T206 that had been authenticated by one of the TPGs, but was then broken out and resubmitted only to come back as 'likely not authentic'?

Would that change anything? Seems like the same scenario to me.

Not of it's been cracked out. No longer the same item

[ullmandds]

I agree with the mentality that being in a GAI holder...the prudent collector would assume the card is authentic. By cracking out the card...the buyer can no longer return the card in as received condition and should be bound to the transaction.

Unfortunately in life today...no one accepts responsibility for their actions and everyone only expects to win...one can no longer lose...losing has become unacceptable.

[bnorth]

You crack it, you own it..period. This is BS.

^^THIS^^ times 1000.

I am saddened by all the people making excuses for the buyer. These things usually only happen when the buyer is known and is in the "IN" group of collectors. So who is the well respected honest buyer several are sticking up for?

[Republicaninmass]

^^THIS^^ times 1000.

I am saddened by all the people making excuses for the buyer. These things usually only happen when the buyer is known and is in the "IN" group of collectors. So who is the well respected honest buyer several are sticking up for?


I think they realize the error of their ways, but WON'T stop them from asking for a refund to no avail.

[bnorth]

I think they realize the error of their ways, but WON'T stop them from asking for a refund to no avail.

Mr $h3rm@n you are a glass half full guy. I figured it was a win for the buyer. Since they now know this works they will be taking advantage of others in a similar fashion in the future, that is if it isn't already a tool in their arsonal.

[chalupacollects]

Dear Tim,

Thank you but a card was returned just cracked out so no proof of original, the police and USPS advised they don't handle these issues. I was thinking of writing a letter to Ebay CEO. I was wondering has anyone had this issue before and what the outcome was? Keep in mind I'm the seller.

Well they are just passing the buck. Have the police file a report as suggested by others and the file a report with FBI internet crimes unit at https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

I would also let buyer know what you are doing just to throw the fear of god into them...

Lastly please post buyer so rest of us don't get burned...

[chalupacollects]

But if the cards value was affected by the number grade say a GAI 8 and is now PSA authentic then there is a big hit to cards value. And I understand if buyer did not try and cross over then card would not have lost value. But if this was a card altered by moser and sold by Brett originally and passed on a few times to an owner who did not know the pedigree. Then cracked for better grade and returned Altered, would anybody be siding with OP?

If OP did not know card was altered (and no evidence of that is present) then yes no reason NOT to side with him...

If of course he did know, well then that's a different story...

[Leon]

Ryan, I always appreciate the help but that bolded rule at the top of every page has changed. I kept getting the "well, if it is a fact then it's not an opinion and I don't need my name out there." To that I call total BS so the wording changed. Here is the new rule below (been there a few months at least). It tightened up (or loosened, if you will) the rule. So if the OP mentions the name of the seller then his full name will have to be out here. I am not sure he minds. I know positively that the op is not a big techie person as I walked him through how to post before this thread, on a very pleasant phone call. That all said, now the new rule is-

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.
.

And my thought, regardless of what sales talk was given in the description, you crack a card you own a card. (unless both parties agree it is ok beforehand, which is not the case here.)


I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[chalupacollects]

I think the question comes down to this. If I sell a card in a GAI slab, and don't say anything about it, am I implicitly warranting the card is unaltered? Or is the buyer taking the risk that it's altered, knowing it's in an inferior holder?

If the OP bought the card in a GAI slab then theoretically he is trusting GAI's opinion that the card is what it is. If the buyer buys it that way he/she should be under the same understanding. It is what it is...

I don't think that either one should "know" the card being in a GAI slab is automatically or possibly altered. What if the card was purchased as a gift by a spouse? Does that change anything?

Based on what has been presented, the buyer was looking for a PSA bump, didn't get one and has now harmed the seller's item. Buyer also seems to be a large dealer or collector based on feedback.. ebay has dropped the ball on this...

[Mark17]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the OP bought the card in a GAI slab then theoretically he is trusting GAI's opinion that the card is what it is. If the buyer buys it that way he/she should be under the same understanding. It is what it is...

I don't think that either one should "know" the card being in a GAI slab is automatically or possibly altered. What if the card was purchased as a gift by a spouse? Does that change anything?

Based on what has been presented, the buyer was looking for a PSA bump, didn't get one and has now harmed the seller's item. Buyer also seems to be a large dealer or collector based on feedback.. ebay has dropped the ball on this...

My point is that a rational seller would not sell a card in a GAI holder that's worth 3X in a PSA or SGC holder, unless he already had tried to cross it, or was pretty sure it was bad. None of that really has anything to do with ebay which should not permit a return in this case because the buyer cannot return the same product he purchased. On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

[chalupacollects]

Cards worth this much have to be submitted at a high dollar, quick turnaround level. Plus he returned the card with the PSA rejection sticker, no?

Buyer could have had a sticker from a previous submission of same card and swapped the card out... I guess OP can check that with PSA though..

[Mark17]

On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

This. That is the bottom line.

[JohnP0621]

I once purchased a Ty Cobb Silk at the Philly Show 2 years ago that was graded by GAI 4 . After the purchase I took it directly to the SGC table in the original slab to have it re-graded by SGC.,The item came back as altered. I contacted the seller and asked for a refund . The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case. The seller took back the card and gave the full refund . I knew when I purchased the card that a lot of GAI cards come back as altered when submitted to SGC or PSA. I also knew that if the card came back in the same grade it would have been worth more $$$ in the SGC slab. But I was also aware that if I cracked it out before submitting and it came back altered the Gamble would be on me 100%
and I would not expect the seller to take any of the responsibility .
I think in this case both parties should take a part of the responsibility
The buyer took a big gamble and lost . Also hard to believe that the seller didn't think the card might have been altered when listed as Near Mint.

John P

[Mark17]

The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case.

And if PWCC said this, EVERYBODY on this site would say: "So you can try to resell the altered card as a nicely graded card to the next sucker, right?!"

If the card was altered and being misrepresented in that GAI 7 holder, the buyer did all of us, and hobbyists yet unborn, a favor. One less mis-graded card out there.

[bounce]

if the card was not returned in the GAI holder, it's not what was sold.

It may take a lot of effort, but items like this have to be returned in the condition in which they were sold.

Once it returned, take pictures and send them in, compared to the original pictures of how it was sold. Again, may take a while but you'll have a good chance of not having to accept the return if it's not returned as sent - and this one clearly wasn't.

However, this situation also demonstrates just how much more complicated all these altered cards are making the hobby now.

[ullmandds]

I have had a few GAI graded cards over the years...a 33 delong gehrig that DID grade out with SGC.

If you play the game...you have to accept the risks.

[wondo]

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

[bobbyw8469]

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.
Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

[x2drich2000]

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.:confused:

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

So the OP confirmed what card it is, and a good number of board members have been able to identify random altered cards sold by PWCC, so why can't someone other than the OP just identify the buyer with 11332 feedback on Ebay? There can't be all that many people card buyers with that volume of feedback.

[wondo]

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

Peter,

I disagree with the inference that the seller received his original goods back and that it is for the greater good. How would you address the argument that a card in a GAI slab, at this stage of the game, is assumed to be altered?

[jhs5120]

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

The slab isn't/wasn't incorrect. Someone at GAI gave the opinion that the card was Near Mint.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

I disagree with the inference that the seller received his original goods back and that it is for the greater good. How would you address the argument that a card in a GAI slab, at this stage of the game, is assumed to be altered?

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

[Mark17]

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

Right. The only reason the seller might care is that he can no longer mis-represent his altered card as a "7".

[wondo]

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

I don't know that it adds any value over a raw card - but shouldn't that be for the owner to decide?

[ullmandds]

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

when the card was removed...damage may have occurred. The card the OP is receiving may or may not be in the same condition as it was when encased.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

[ullmandds]

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

you assume every collector/investor is interested in playing the game with the TPG'ers. Personally I am not! I will not waste/spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to keep "trying" for a better grade.

You can't assume this is every seller's motive?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know that it adds any value over a raw card - but shouldn't that be for the owner to decide?

I have already stated ebay should not allow the return. I have moved on to a different angle which is whether I feel badly for the seller.:eek:

[slightlyrounded]

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

[jhs5120]

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

[wondo]

I have already stated ebay should not allow the return. I have moved on to a different angle which is whether I feel badly for the seller.:eek:

I don’t think that issue is black / white.

[Mark17]

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

[perezfan]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

Not apples to apples...

First off, PSA is anything but infallible. They are the ones who’ve mistakenly numerically graded those thousands of PWCC and other altered cards. They have made more “mistakes” and issued more false numerical grades than anyone. So why is their word the word of God? It’s amazing that despite the mountain of indisputable evidence, people are still hypnotized by them.

Secondly, the card was sold with a proper description in a GAI Holder. It was not returned in the same state. You cannot tamper with an item and then return it, when you failed to realize the desired personal gain.

Lastly, the apparent narrowing of the card towards the bottom is due to the way and the angle by which it was photographed. It is called a parallax view, and is a common phenomenon when photographing at an angle. The portion closest to the camera lens will appear larger than the portion that’s further away.

If the card was scanned in a more traditional manner, you’d see that it is symmetrical. Bottom line is that the buyer took advantage of the system, at the expense of the seller. I hope his name is disclosed, for the sake of our collecting community.

[Rhotchkiss]

You crack, no give back.

No disclosure (of buyer), no pity.

[Bill77]

Just a hypothetical question, If the card came back as a PSA 5 it would have been worth what the buyer paid according to the PSA pricing of the card, so if the card had come back with a grade of 5 or less would the buyer still have tried to return the card knowing he would not have made any profit on a similar or higher PSA grade for the card?

[Mark17]

I think a lot of people here, if they want to be consistent on principle, need to revise some of their posts in the dozens of threads involving sellers peddling altered cards in high-grade TPG holders.

I am not saying the OP knew that was the case.

Now that the card is out of its holder, second, third, fourth opinions can be rendered. If it is in fact altered, then the buyer avoided being taken and that is a good thing for everybody, especially future owners of that card.

As was noted by many, in previous posts, grading/authenticating cannot be done very accurately when a card is in a holder, so cracking it out was required to reveal the true condition of the card.

Disclaimers:

1. Had PSA said it was unaltered, but low grade, I would side with the seller. Numeric grade is opinion. Altered is a different story.

2. If GAI's standards were such that an altered card could still receive a "7" grade, then I would side with the seller.

3. If it turns out the card is not conclusively determined to be altered, I would side with the seller.

[bobbyw8469]

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.


Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don’t think that issue is black / white.

Let me ask you this, John. Suppose PSA had rejected the card in the slab and the buyer returned it in the slab. Is the seller obligated to disclose that fact when he puts the card back up?

[Mark17]

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

You are assuming he was trying to cross over. He may have been trying to authenticate. Whatever his motivation, he discovered the card was doctored. I'll bet there are a lot of big smiles at PWCC headquarters right now, seeing how many people think that when a buyer buys a high graded card but receives a doctored one instead, he should be stuck with it, period.

And that, when trying to determine authenticity/alterations, the card must remain in the plastic brick.

Look, I basically agree that returns must be the same item in the same condition. But when deception in the form of alteration (not on the part of the seller, but alteration nevertheless) is discovered, THAT is where it's no longer an apples to apples argument.

[wondo]

Let me ask you this, John. Suppose PSA had rejected the card in the slab and the buyer returned it in the slab. Is the seller obligated to disclose that fact when he puts the card back up?

In a perfect world, yes, that would be the ethical thing to do. But since the prevailing sentiment is that PSA is fallible; how pertinent is that information?

[Peter_Spaeth]

In a perfect world, yes, that would be the ethical thing to do. But since the prevailing sentiment is that PSA is fallible; how pertinent is that information?

I think it's still material, people can assess for themselves what it means. But without disclosure you wouldn't know.

[Eric72]

Sent back to me unslabbed by PSA since they said the card was altered and I guess the buyer didn't want it slabbed authentic

Did PSA indicate what alteration was done? Sorry if you’ve already posted this info and I missed it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

Somewhere in here is a statement purportedly by Ebay that GAI is not an approved service which would imply that PSA, SGC and Beckett holders would be treated differently.

[Joe Hunter]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

[ullmandds]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

well said

[toolifedave]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.
Thank you Joe , well said

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

C'mon Peter, that's immaterial. Just because we think it gives us a better chance at achieving our goal doesn't mean it's ethical to do it at someone else's expense. Cracking isn't supposed to change anything, and that would be the official line you would get from any TPG, so taking it upon yourself to do so without accepting the consequences is wrong.

[toolifedave]

Did PSA indicate what alteration was done? Sorry if you’ve already posted this info and I missed it.
No

[Mark17]

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

[slightlyrounded]

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

[ullmandds]

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

Whatever the wrong thing to do is!

[Mark17]

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

[ullmandds]

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

[Mark17]

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

We had a member here refuse to take back a card that was outed as altered even though the buyer offered to return it in the same slab he purchased it in. It happens.

[bobbyw8469]

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

They buyer bought a GAI graded card at a discount due to the GAI holder. However, it WAS graded. Now the card is NOT in the graded holder and the seller is losing out on thousands. I'm sorry, but once the buyer cracked it out, it is his. This opens up a whole new can of worms. I would be leery of selling ANY graded card on Ebay if the outcome stands.

[Stampsfan]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

Exactly. And here is my opinion before my rant below. "Buyer Beware" became "Buyers Remorse"; he took a gamble and lost, and now he wants his money back after altering of the purchase. The seller is not Costco or Home Depot, where you can return almost anything.

The OP sold an altered card. Now, assuming he got the same card back, he hasn't lost anything. The GAI holder was incorrect, the card should not have gotten a numeric grade.

It sounds like the OP bought a card that turned out to be altered, and now he wanted to pass the loss on to the next buyer.

Not sure how you can determine intent of the seller was to sell an altered card, or sell a GAI graded card.

And we all are assuming that GAI is incorrect and PSA is correct. Maybe the opposite is true. Not saying it is, I am simply taking a contrarian approach. Forgive me, but I may have read somewhere on this site about the odd mistake PSA makes.

Finally, I have to say a lot of what is going on here frustrates me about some people on this site.

A new guy with 21 previous posts comes on here, tells his story about how the product he sold that was returned altered, and in certainly less valuable state. He is reaching out to see if he is nuts, or what should be the protocol. Regardless of the holder, he sold a product.

What he gets back is (ballpark) 50% understanding him, and 50% accusing him of trying to pull a fast one. The truth is we truly don't know what his motives are, and we truly don't know what the buyers motives are (myself included). It's all conjecture. Then, after being grilled, as a new poster he is trying to play by the rules and is unsure whether he should post the buyers eBay ID. He gets crucified for that too, like he's hiding something.

Frankly some of the replies from the conspiracy theorists to the newbie are shameful. Likely nobody knows this guy at all, yet yet many of us are incredibly judgmental. If I were in his position, I'd probably go radio silent too, and not read or post here again.

I'll probably get crucified too for this post, but I am OK with my position. I'm old and comfortable with that.

[jfkheat]

So, does this mean that all the buyers of cards in PRO slabs can return them because a TPG determined that they were altered?

[seff]

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.

Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.

Just my two cents.

[Mark17]

They buyer bought a GAI graded card at a discount due to the GAI holder. However, it WAS graded. Now the card is NOT in the graded holder and the seller is losing out on thousands.

The seller is not losing out on thousands because it isn't in a GAI holder. He likely lost thousands when he, himself was duped when purchasing that doctored card in the first place.

And for the record, I do not blame the seller at all - I doubt he was the card doctor or the original submitter to GAI. He was probably the original victim here.


I'm sorry, but once the buyer cracked it out, it is his. This opens up a whole new can of worms. I would be leery of selling ANY graded card on Ebay if the outcome stands.

Suppose I sell you an unopened pack of 1962 Topps baseball cards that I bought at a show years ago and believe to be authentic. You open the pack for one of those YouTube videos, and discover that there are 5 cards in the pack, but they are all from different series (which would be impossible for a genuine unopened pack.)

Are you saying you have no recourse? If you come to me for a refund, can I just say, "Well, in order for you to have uncovered the deception, you had to open them, and now that they are open, the deception is not relevant, because it is no longer an unopened pack."

[fusorcruiser]

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

I'm relatively a newbie too and I'm with the seller on this one. He sold a GAI holdered card and did not get the same in return, period. A full refund is not warranted. There is always some risk to the buyer of buying any holdered card (buy the card not the holder, right?) but especially more risk with a holdered card graded from a defunct TPG like GAI. If the buyer did not like the slabbed card which you can see both sides of clearly and returned it intact then a full refund would be appropriate all day long.

I do think the seller should have shared the ebay name of this alleged scammer so that other sellers can be protected.

Regarding PWCC... No one should yet put toolifedave, the seller, in the same boat as PWCC at all. Not even close. Do we have proof that toolifedave knew his GAI Gehrig card was altered? The magnitude of known and suspected card alterations is in a different universe. There have been many posts on Net 54 and Blowout that illustrate the alleged collusion and alignment by PWCC with alleged card bleachers/trimmers like Moser of buying, cosigning, selling, re-buying, re-cosigning, submitting, manipulating/shilling and reselling of doctored cards to make huge bucks off of unsuspecting, trusting collectors and it still seems to be going on today and everyday as shared here and on Blowout. Thanks for the opportunity to rant. :D
B0b Zw.e.ng

[cardsnstuff]

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.

Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.

Just my two cents.


Actually, not true, I Still have a few hundred GAI slabs from the early days, that I personally submitted. Why haven't I reviewed them? Cost for me is the major reason.

[irishdenny]

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.
If the Card wasn't Legit... Then Why did He Buy it?
Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?
i don't Know... Maybe He's Hungry!!!

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.
Not True, The Buyer didn't send the Card in as a Crossover, Crossovers are only done while the Card is Slabbed!
*And the Buyer took that Option Away Forever, Which means it's His Card Now!

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.
Yeah, Why Blame him for Cracking a Card Out that He Didn't Own?
If the Buyer Knew it was Trimmed... Why iN the H E Double Tooth Picks did He Buy the Card iN the 1st Place?

Just my two cents.

Look Closely... i answered your questions!

Dankz fir the 2 Pennies ~

[bigfanNY]

First let me be clear I agree that the seller had every right to return the card.
If the card had graded 1 at PSA and was not altered then I would side with the seller. The key here is the card has been altered.
Let's say this was a slabbed Autograph in the $5,000.00 range like a Mathewson cut. And was in a JSA slab and sold on Ebay or in any Auction. Then buyer decides he would rather have a PSA slab sends it in he might even have a PSA auction letter. When it arrives it looks good so they crack it and then under a fold they notice a watermark or a copyright that dates it to 1930. Now PSA knows the item is NG and sends it back. Is the buyer stuck with purchase because the case was cracked? No of course not Alterd cards and counterfeit autos are fraudulent items. And buyers should not be expected to accept them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The seller is not losing out on thousands because it isn't in a GAI holder. He likely lost thousands when he, himself was duped when purchasing that doctored card in the first place.

And for the record, I do not blame the seller at all - I doubt he was the card doctor or the original submitter to GAI. He was probably the original victim here.




Suppose I sell you an unopened pack of 1962 Topps baseball cards that I bought at a show years ago and believe to be authentic. You open the pack for one of those YouTube videos, and discover that there are 5 cards in the pack, but they are all from different series (which would be impossible for a genuine unopened pack.)

Are you saying you have no recourse? If you come to me for a refund, can I just say, "Well, in order for you to have uncovered the deception, you had to open them, and now that they are open, the deception is not relevant, because it is no longer an unopened pack."

Yeah talk about a Catch 22. You can return the watch if it's defective, as long as you haven't taken it out of the original packaging and used it.

[x2drich2000]

Here's where I stand, if you believe that the seller knew the card was altered because it was in a GAI graded slab, then the buyer should have also known that it was altered when he choose to purchase it in the GAI graded slab and therefore should never have purchased in the first place.

Unless the seller specifically gives you their opinion of the card, when you buy a card in any slab, whether it is PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO, GEM, or Bob's Backyard Butcher shop, you are buying the card with that authenticator's opinion. The seller is under no obligation to trust one authenticator over another. While no one else may agree, the seller may trust PRO/GAI/GEM/BOB's over PSA/SGC. By cracking the card out and returning it, the buyer has now forced their preference of authenticator on the seller and the seller can no longer sell the card as they originally did.

[nsaddict]

If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack?

[1880nonsports]

it was all on the buyer once he cracked it out. As was mentioned you buy the card as guaranteed by the grading company when slabbed. Additionally I believe the case and card were deemed authentic and unaltered so even stretching the argument out a little - ostensibly only the grade is subjective. The buyer altered a part of the original item.

[JeremyW]

Same result if you open a wax pack?

If it's graded by GAI, evidently so.


Jeremy W@goner.

[guy3050]

What if the card would have come back as a counterfeit , would you guys still be on the sellers side ?

[GasHouseGang]

This guy was basically buying a lottery ticket hoping it would pay off. He paid what a PSA 5 of that card would normally cost, and hoped to get it into a PSA 7 holder making a quick three grand. When that didn't happen he wanted his money back. Sorry, but the gamble didn't pay off. Except in this case the loser is the guy that sold him the ticket!

[Peter_Spaeth]

This guy was basically buying a lottery ticket hoping it would pay off. He paid what a PSA 5 of that card would normally cost, and hoped to get it into a PSA 7 holder making a quick three grand. When that didn't happen he wanted his money back. Sorry, but the gamble didn't pay off. Except in this case the loser is the guy that sold him the ticket!

The altered ticket.

[mq711]

Sounds like the majority in this discussion believe if an altered card can fool a TPG and receive a number then anyone who buys it is stuck without recourse. I would have hoped everyone would support the buyer's right to have a refund should an "outed" card be identified and returned.

[1952boyntoncollector]

You crack it, you own it..period. This is BS.

i agree. Otherwise basically a buyer is saying he will only buy it if the card will sell more for what he bought for it. no free lunch

[Mark17]

Sounds like the majority in this discussion believe if an altered card can fool a TPG and receive a number then anyone who buys it is stuck without recourse. I would have hoped everyone would support the buyer's right to have a refund should an "outed" card be identified and returned.

Oh, they do, if it's an unpopular seller.

[1952boyntoncollector]

My point is that a rational seller would not sell a card in a GAI holder that's worth 3X in a PSA or SGC holder, unless he already had tried to cross it, or was pretty sure it was bad. None of that really has anything to do with ebay which should not permit a return in this case because the buyer cannot return the same product he purchased. On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

Since GAI is out of business, what about if it was in GTX or whatever holder. Can you break that one out

[JollyElm]

I don't know the OP and have had no interaction with him that I am aware of, but come on!! The guy in question buys the card (obviously looking to flip it for a big profit) and fails in his come to God, crack-out moment and the OP is supposed to be responsible for the return?? The card isn't in the same state it was in when it was sold. Plus, everyone knows GAI isn't a very (if at all) viable grading company. The fact it's in that holder to begin with tells most of us all we need to know.

If I was the potential buyer, I would've asked the seller two things:
1. Why isn't the card in a PSA/SGC/BVG holder?
2. If I crack it out and it's found to be fake or altered, will you offer me a return?

The actual buyer, as far as we know, didn't hedge his bets at all. He probably just saw dollar signs and went for it, knowing he was able to do so because of ebay's SOP.

[perezfan]

Sounds like the majority in this discussion believe if an altered card can fool a TPG and receive a number then anyone who buys it is stuck without recourse. I would have hoped everyone would support the buyer's right to have a refund should an "outed" card be identified and returned.

How do you know it's altered? Because PSA says so? Yeah, they're pretty good at determining that.

[Mark17]

Plus, everyone knows GAI isn't a very (if at all) viable grading company.

So why is it supposedly such a huge loss to the seller, that his card is no longer in that GAI holder?

[JollyElm]

So why is it supposedly such a huge loss to the seller, that his card is no longer in that GAI holder?

Because it was sold IN the holder. Now it's OUT of said holder. People can disagree about GAI all they want, but it's beside the point. The card status has changed between the sale and the return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So why is it supposedly such a huge loss to the seller, that his card is no longer in that GAI holder?

This is what I don't understand. If the holder is essentially worthless, because nobody values a GAI grade, why is no longer having the card in the worthless holder a great loss? It makes no logical sense.

[Marchillo]

Card is in an old PSA 7 slab but seller knows it’s over graded. Buyer cracks and submits to SGC and it comes back a 5. Is that worthy of a return? I still think if you crack it out you own it unless it comes to light that the seller altered the card or purposely enhanced the card.

In the PWCC example didn’t they accept consignments from known fraudsters and card doctors? To me this is apples and oranges.

[DeanH3]

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

This is a big point. What's to stop people from attempting this?

I can't believe people really think it's OK to break a card out of a holder and try to return it. I get it, it's a GAI holder but this is crazy. Buyer should have attempted a cross over IN THE HOLDER. If they didn't want any bias, then that's a risk THEY take by removing it, period.

Next up will be people cracking out PSA/SGC cards and attempting returns because the card graded ALT/AUTH.

[Mark17]

This is what I don't understand. If the holder is essentially worthless, because nobody values a GAI grade, why is no longer having the card in the worthless holder a great loss? It makes no logical sense.

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

In other words, the only value it could have had in round 2 was to deceive. So the seller has now been deprived of any ability to overrepresent the card (not that he did the first time, I will assume he was innocent). I'm not sure I feel badly about that.

[Marchillo]

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

A guy with over 11k feedback is unsuspecting?????


Wow just wow.

[toolifedave]

Dean B, Thank you and you get it

[Mark17]

A guy with over 11k feedback is unsuspecting?????


Wow just wow.

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

[Marchillo]

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

[Marchillo]

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

[Marchillo]

How do you know it's altered? Because PSA says so? Yeah, they're pretty good at determining that.

Plus this point as well - with the 100’s of high end cards coming up altered from PSA what makes them the end all be all authority on altered cards?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

Would you crack it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Would you crack it?

If I believed in it yes; I think the chances of PSA or SGC crossing a GAI graded card in a slab are probably not good just on principle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post :)

[1880nonsports]

I subbed about 100 cards to GAI a little after they started - mostly N28 and N29 cards as well as a few cigarette packs. Quite a few were first graded. I believe that most (if not all but??) were clean and unaltered as at the time I was wary of things being done to cards (I actually was at a show once and SAW someone using a SISSOR on a card) so I looked quite closely for rolled edges coloring etc.. Not every GAI card is suspect BUT it's on the buyer if he ALTERS what was a card in a holder into what is now a card and a holder. Forget his intentions or if he knew anything about GAI or PSA or SGC or whomever - don't believe relevance.

I sold and/or cracked EVERY ONE OUT before AND after they didn't open "Monday".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post :)

In a world where TPGs acted in good faith they WOULD have to crack a card out of a holder to be sure they could cross it. There is no way they can adequately assess the edges of most cards through the slab, in my opinion.

[ahumes13]

1- it’s not OK on general principle to crack a card, submit for regrading and return when the card is “A”, or is not the grade the submitter wants. No honest person disputes this.
2- it’s not OK to sell a card in an inferior holder that has been rejected from other grading services as not being a number grade, without disclosing as much in the sale. No honest person disputes this.

The OP is only one they knows if #2 is true, to me it seems pretty obvious. If so, I’d suggest recognizing the karma in play. Reach out to the buyer and negotiate a reasonable purchase price based on a “A” grade. Many of the previous posts illustrate the reasons why he should want to put and end to this, as should the OP.

If the OP and buyer are both a bit unhappy with the result then that’s probably the best result.

[GasHouseGang]

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

[Stampsfan]

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

In the world of hypotheticals, maybe the buyer cracked it out, got a 7, took an altered one and returned it. Double dipped, in effect.

Seller is still screwed.

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by nsaddict View Post
If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack? < Peter’s response ( not sure how to quote in blue box fashion)
__________________


So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

[Mark17]

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

In my hypothetical, I stated that the buyer of the pack opens it while on camera, for a YouTube video. Let's say a few honest, reputable witnesses are also there.


Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade.

When we were discussing someone starting a new, technically modern and objective grading service, many, many posters here commented that it was essential to look at the edge of a card to determine whether it had been trimmed. Also the thickness of the card is important, and variances in thickness, like whether the corners are thinner, indicating they may have been spread wider so as to trim them sharp.

Now you seem to be saying, in the passage I bolded above, that cards can be graded, and doctored cards including trim and corner rework can be identified, while the card is still slabbed. You're also implying the texture of a card is not important to a grader, or when identifying doctored or counterfeit cards.

So, which is it? Can a $5,000 card be properly evaluated while in a plastic holder (rendering such attributes as card thickness and edge inspection impossible to examine,) or is the evaluation process involved enough to require the examination of the card while out of the holder?

The only way to know what is in an unopened pack is to open it. If that act reveals a deception, then the pack was sold under false pretenses, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not. In this case, the fraudulent pack cannot be resold to someone else and that is a good thing.

The only way to know if the Gehrig was genuine or doctored was to give it a thorough inspection, meaning, cracked out of that virtually valueless holder. This act revealed a deception. The card, when sold, was mis-represented, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not.

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.

[Mark17]

So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

No, because I'm assuming in your hypo you got what you paid for. But if you pay for an unaltered card and receive an altered card then, yes, you should be able to send it back.

[Mark17]

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

There are plenty of pictures of the card that was sold on ebay, right on the listing itself. Comparing the card sold to the card returned would be simple.

[bobbyw8469]

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.

As much as you don't want to believe it, the GAI holder did have SOME value - if only for the sheer gamblers aspect of it as to why this buyer bought it in the first place. GAI IS (well.....was....at one time) a respected name. Mike Baker IS a good grader. The buyer who cracked it out was hoping to make a monetary score by getting it into a PSA holder. He knew he was not getting a fake card. The same can't be said for a PRO holder. So, yes, the GAI card DID have some value. But now the seller doesn't even have that. He is forced to refund, and is getting a card that doesn't even have the GAI stamp of approval anymore. His option is now, as much as I hate to say it, is to play the "grading" game!!! What if it eventually gets into a PSA 7 holder?? All of the sudden it is now deemed "acceptable". I, for one, am dismayed that this is what the baseball card collection has become.

[Marchillo]

No, because I'm assuming in your hypo you got what you paid for. But if you pay for an unaltered card and receive an altered card then, yes, you should be able to send it back.

Some cards receive a minimum size designation that haven’t been trimmed. They get resubmitted and get a grade. So if a card has a PSA grade, gets cracked and gets submitted to SGC and gets an A after a crack out is this on the seller as well?

I think the bottom line here is that a crossover can be done without a crack out. The seemingly greedy buyer didn’t want that influence (which is insane). The card should be graded whatever it deserves. After the crack out I think the return is void. Unless there is proof of intent by the seller.

[Mark17]

As much as you don't want to believe it, the GAI holder did have SOME value - if only for the sheer gamblers aspect of it as to why this buyer bought it in the first place. GAI IS (well.....was....at one time) a respected name. Mike Baker IS a good grader. The buyer who cracked it out was hoping to make a monetary score by getting it into a PSA holder. He knew he was not getting a fake card. The same can't be said for a PRO holder. So, yes, the GAI card DID have some value. But now the seller doesn't even have that. He is forced to refund, and is getting a card that doesn't even have the GAI stamp of approval anymore. His option is now, as much as I hate to say it, is to play the "grading" game!!! What if it eventually gets into a PSA 7 holder?? All of the sudden it is now deemed "acceptable". I, for one, am dismayed that this is what the baseball card collection has become.

The root problem is this: The card is doctored. The seller wants to sell it at a price commensurate with that of an undoctored card. That GAI holder gave him cover, now that cover is removed, and the card stands naked of its previous misrepresentation. It is what it is.

How many people on this site keep repeating: Buy the card, not the holder.

My opinion is that if had graded a PSA 1, I would be 100% on the side of the seller. We see all sorts of examples of grading companies having a difference of opinion on relative grade. But when a card is doctored, that is a whole different thing. That's deception on the part of somebody (probably not the seller, but somebody.)

[bobbyw8469]

The root problem is this: The card is doctored.

Says who?? PSA???? PSA missed a ton of doctored cards. GAI says it wasn't. What if it gets resubmitted and actually gets a SGC and/or PSA grade?? Is it no longer doctored?? This whole grading thing has gotten kinda insane.

[Mark17]

Says who?? PSA???? PSA missed a ton of doctored cards. GAI says it wasn't. What if it gets resubmitted and actually gets a SGC and/or PSA grade?? Is it no longer doctored?? This whole grading thing has gotten kinda insane.

Agreed, more details regarding the (alleged) doctoring would be helpful.

As I said before, I think it's way easier to miss a doctored card than to see alterations that do not exist.

You and others make good points. It's a good discussion where I think we all see each others' point of view, and just put more weight on one side of the argument or the other.

Assuming the card is, in fact, doctored, I am glad it has been outed, and not still floating around in that 7 holder.

[bnorth]

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.:confused:

[frankbmd]

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.:confused:

Let me check your math, Ben.:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.:confused:

All the more reason to try, maybe they would have missed the alteration.

But seriously, I don't understand why, unless he knew the card was bad, the OP didn't try given the huge upside.

[conor912]

So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

It looks like, given the new precedent, yes. You could buy a GAI slabbed pack, crack it out, search it, pull anything you want and replace it with whatever you want, reseal it, send it to PSA knowing its going to fail, then send it back to the seller, saying it failed, and get a refund. Pretty sure that's the pack equivalent of what happened here, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aplyon86]

It looks like, given the new precedent, yes. You could buy a GAI slabbed pack, crack it out, search it, pull anything you want and replace it with whatever you want, reseal it, send it to PSA knowing its going to fail, then send it back to the seller, saying it failed, and get a refund. Pretty sure that's the pack equivalent of what happened here, but correct me if I'm wrong.Agree 100% (assuming the seller didn't know it was altered or try to cross it over with the same result). Anyone who agrees with the buyer, do you have and GAI cards on eBay and if so, what is your eBay ID? You have a new customer with me.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[ullmandds]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

[t206fanatic]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

only potentially compelling argument not siding wholly w the seller I've seen is:

do the sellers of cards in crapslabs (non PSA/SGC) have any responsibility for checking to see if the card inside is altered? Peter asked a number of times if the seller had attempted to have the Gehrig crossed over, without response.

[icurnmedic]

It is funny how many of us on the forum all the sudden put merit to PSA's ability to grade and with greater professionalism than GAI, when for months I have been reading otherwise. The seller got the shaft, like it or disagree, but this sets a potentially game changing precedent. What if it were a SGC holder cracked and sent to PSA? Does that change anything? Not sure of the value of the card , but I am in the camp , if you send the GAI holder to PSA, It will NOT be crossed over, so you are throwing good money out the window. And the GAI holder does offer value, albeit not much.

[ullmandds]

It is funny how many of us on the forum all the sudden put merit to PSA's ability to grade and with greater professionalism than GAI, when for months I have been reading otherwise. The seller got the shaft, like it or disagree, but this sets a potentially game changing precedent. What if it were a SGC holder cracked and sent to PSA? Does that change anything? Not sure of the value of the card , but I am in the camp , if you send the GAI holder to PSA, It will NOT be crossed over, so you are throwing good money out the window. And the GAI holder does offer value, albeit not much.

Agreed

[Rhotchkiss]

See the thread called "1928 Harrington's Babe Ruth on Ebay"

To those supporting the buyer on this, I ask two questions:

1. So, the high bidder of that card can crack it out and send it raw into PSA (or SGC), and if PSA says its altered because of the odd right edge, the high bidder should be able to return the card? If not, why not?

2. Where do you get the crack (no pun intended) you are smoking?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

I agree, its buyer beware when they buy a card in that inferior holder If they want to take the risk, thats their risk.

[Paul S]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.
You buy it? OK. You break and expect a refund when its not OK? Tempus Fuggit.

[ullmandds]

I agree, its buyer beware when they buy a card in that inferior holder If they want to take the risk, thats their risk.

Question is...at what point will a PSA holder be considered inferior???

[Goudey77]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

Nothing surprises me anymore. This hobby has some real shocking perspectives from all walks of life. I think it’s mostly mid life crisis personality disorders.
There is truly a mental disorder aspect to the madness. I don’t know how legitimate businesses take any of the alleged claims seriously. :o

I’m almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days.
I don’t take a negative stance very much but this instance kind of did it.
Ok rant over. :D

[mq711]

Not sure the buyer took a risk here, with over 10k eBay transactions he is probably very familiar with their return/refund policy and took full advantage of it when the item was determined to be altered. Would be a nice case for Judge Judy to hear but apparently its okay under eBays rules.

[ullmandds]

Not sure the buyer took a risk here, with over 10k eBay transactions he is probably very familiar with their return/refund policy and took full advantage of it when the item was determined to be altered. Would be a nice case for Judge Judy to hear but apparently its okay under eBays rules.

I agree and I wouldn't have any issue with the return as long as the card was not cracked out of its original holder.

[Rhotchkiss]

[QUOTE=ullmandds;1929915]I agree and I wouldn't have any issue with the return as long as the card was not cracked out of its original holder.[/QUOTE

If you crack, no give back.

[steve B]

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

[ullmandds]

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

good point

[steve B]

GAI and SGC slabs do usually leave enough visible to examine a cards edges.
PSA will often block some of the edge of a full size card, undersize should be visible.

I'm not sure about Beckett. It's been a while since I looked at the one or two Beckett cards I have.

Even the Acu-Grade slab shows more than enough edge to tell if a card is trimmed. (Unfortunately for me, or not one of my Delongs is Acu-Grade 7, and it is trimmed. Of course, if it wasn't I wouldn't own it... )

[steve B]

How many threads are there about resubs where a card is a nice 5-6, gets cracked and resubmitted, comes back a 3 gets cracked and resubbed, comes back trimmed, cracked and resubbed and comes back a 7...

Without seeing it close up, I suspect it's worth another try or two at PSA.
Now whether the other two opinions are right, that's a toss up.

[Eric72]

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

I wondered about that very thing early on in this thread. It doesn't add up to me.

The OP has held back some info. For example, unless I missed it, the person who purchased the card on eBay hasn't been identified. Additionally, the unnamed buyer hasn't come on here (so far as I know) to fill in any details.

So, we're left to wonder, discuss, and piece things together using incomplete information. Along the way, this thread has generated approximately 200 responses. Two opinions have been shared repeatedly:

1. Case was cracked open - the sale should be final
2. Card was altered but sold as near mint - buyer should get a refund

To me, neither position is entirely right or entirely wrong. That is what makes this such a fascinating discussion. It's also what may lead to a most remarkable scenario.

Both buyer and seller can argue that they deserve to keep their money. Ultimately, both of them may get to do just that.

The buyer already got their refund through eBay. The seller can (and likely will) fight that through PayPal or their bank. One possible outcome is this:

Buyer gets to keep their refund
Seller eventually gets paid
At least one company foots the bill as the cost of doing business

And, of course, seller still has the card...we think.

[bnorth]

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

Maybe I am confused. Ebay says it sold Oct 14th and OP's first post was Nov 7th. That is 3 weeks of time and I am sure all of that could easily happen in 3 weeks.

[Mark17]

I wondered about that very thing early on in this thread. It doesn't add up to me.

The OP has held back some info. For example, unless I missed it, the person who purchased the card on eBay hasn't been identified. Additionally, the unnamed buyer hasn't come on here (so far as I know) to fill in any details.

So, we're left to wonder, discuss, and piece things together using incomplete information. Along the way, this thread has generated approximately 200 responses. Two opinions have been shared repeatedly:

1. Case was cracked open - the sale should be final
2. Card was altered but sold as near mint - buyer should get a refund

To me, neither position is entirely right or entirely wrong. That is what makes this such a fascinating discussion. It's also what may lead to a most remarkable scenario.

Both buyer and seller can argue that they deserve to keep their money. Ultimately, both of them may get to do just that.

The buyer already got their refund through eBay. The seller can (and likely will) fight that through PayPal or their bank. One possible outcome is this:

Buyer gets to keep their refund
Seller eventually gets paid
At least one company foots the bill as the cost of doing business

And, of course, seller still has the card...we think.

Thank you, Eric!!

While some on these threads have been frightened by this conversation:

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

And others have said that an opposing view is evidence of a personality disorder:

Nothing surprises me anymore. This hobby has some real shocking perspectives from all walks of life. I think it’s mostly mid life crisis personality disorders.
There is truly a mental disorder aspect to the madness. I don’t know how legitimate businesses take any of the alleged claims seriously. :o

I’m almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days.
I don’t take a negative stance very much but this instance kind of did it.
Ok rant over. :D

You, Eric, have nicely, and in a respectful, non-insulting way, summarized this discussion by pointing out that there are two perspectives that each have some validity.

The point of a discussion like this isn't to "win" it, but to share perspectives. When someone says that such a discussion makes them "almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days", or that the discussion itself is "downright scary" that's disappointing.

[bnorth]

Thank you, Eric!!

While some on these threads have been frightened by this conversation:



And others have said that an opposing view is evidence of a personality disorder:



You, Eric, have nicely, and in a respectful, non-insulting way, summarized this discussion by pointing out that there are two perspectives that each have some validity.

The point of a discussion like this isn't to "win" it, but to share perspectives. When someone says that such a discussion makes them "almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days", or that the discussion itself is "downright scary" that's disappointing.

I agree that this is a weird thread with 2 types.

1) plain and simple the item returned was not the item sold and buyer should not get a refund for returning an altered product.

2) people making all sorts of excuses on why someone can buy an item alter it and return it for a full refund. This one really bafles me but I doubt there is any subject we all agree on.

[Mark17]

I agree that this is a weird thread with 2 types.

1) plain and simple the item returned was not the item sold and buyer should not get a refund for returning an altered product.

2) people making all sorts of excuses on why someone can buy an item alter it and return it for a full refund. This one really bafles me but I doubt there is any subject we all agree on.

Ben, if you buy a Rolex watch that has elaborate packaging, open it, and discover fraud, are you saying you cannot return it because it is opened?

[bnorth]

Bill, if you buy a Rolex watch that has elaborate packaging, open it, and discover fraud, are you saying you cannot return it because it is opened?

Mike that doesn't even make sense, plus it is totally irrelevant to what really happened.

[Mark17]

Mike that doesn't even make sense, plus it is totally irrelevant to what really happened.
Biff,
It is quite similar. Maybe the buyer could've returned the card and added $20 for the cost of the cracked holder. Would that be fair?

[Prof_Plum]

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Perhaps for future GAI sales, one should sell the holder, not the card inside. For example, I have this near mint intact GAI 7 holder for sale, $3000...and I'll throw in the card for free. If the buyer should brake the GAI holder in hopes of getting the card in a PSA holder, he can't ask for his money back because he paid for the intact GAI holder.

[bnorth]

Biff,
It is quite similar. Maybe the buyer could've returned the card and added $20 for the cost of the cracked holder. Would that be fair?

George, you can add all the if's and but's you want, plain and simple the buyer altered the item and should not get a refund. Go to Walmart or where ever you shop and buy a coat. Then cut off the sleeves and try and return it. How is that different?

[toolifedave]

Exactly. And here is my opinion before my rant below. "Buyer Beware" became "Buyers Remorse"; he took a gamble and lost, and now he wants his money back after altering of the purchase. The seller is not Costco or Home Depot, where you can return almost anything.



Not sure how you can determine intent of the seller was to sell an altered card, or sell a GAI graded card.

And we all are assuming that GAI is incorrect and PSA is correct. Maybe the opposite is true. Not saying it is, I am simply taking a contrarian approach. Forgive me, but I may have read somewhere on this site about the odd mistake PSA makes.

Finally, I have to say a lot of what is going on here frustrates me about some people on this site.

A new guy with 21 previous posts comes on here, tells his story about how the product he sold that was returned altered, and in certainly less valuable state. He is reaching out to see if he is nuts, or what should be the protocol. Regardless of the holder, he sold a product.

What he gets back is (ballpark) 50% understanding him, and 50% accusing him of trying to pull a fast one. The truth is we truly don't know what his motives are, and we truly don't know what the buyers motives are (myself included). It's all conjecture. Then, after being grilled, as a new poster he is trying to play by the rules and is unsure whether he should post the buyers eBay ID. He gets crucified for that too, like he's hiding something.

Frankly some of the replies from the conspiracy theorists to the newbie are shameful. Likely nobody knows this guy at all, yet yet many of us are incredibly judgmental. If I were in his position, I'd probably go radio silent too, and not read or post here again.

I'll probably get crucified too for this post, but I am OK with my position. I'm old and comfortable with that.
Bob, Thank you

[Mark17]

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Perhaps for future GAI sales, one should sell the holder, not the card inside. For example, I have this near mint intact GAI 7 holder for sale, $3000...and I'll throw in the card for free. If the buyer should brake the GAI holder in hopes of getting the card in a PSA holder, he can't ask for his money back because he paid for the intact GAI holder.

I'm not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek or not, but actually, I think this is a really good idea and solve the problem. If this was the case, I would totally support the seller's right to not have to accept the return. And in this scenario, the card could be outright counterfeit, not just altered, and it would make no difference.

I find your idea to be an elegant solution. Then it's a clear "buyer beware" deal and both buyer and seller understand this up front. Sort of like buying a grab bag where the contents are unknown at time of purchase.

[BabyRuth]

Let's lighten it up a bit
I love threads that talk about GAI Gehrigs and Rolex

[Mark17]

George, you can add all the if's and but's you want, plain and simple the buyer altered the item and should not get a refund. Go to Walmart or where ever you shop and buy a coat. Then cut off the sleeves and try and return it. How is that different?
Milton, the product was the Gehrig card and I am assuming it was returned undamaged.

Suppose the buyer had removed the card for inspection in such a way that the holder was undamaged. He discovers the card is doctored. Would it be OK for him to put the now known doctored card back into the original GAI 7 holder and return to the seller in the identical condition it was received?

[bnorth]

Let's lighten it up a bit
I love threads that talk about GAI Gehrigs and Rolex

Me too!

[Republicaninmass]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

Truth. It's easy to play devil's advocate when YOU aren't the seller!

[bnorth]

Milton, the product was the Gehrig card and I am assuming it was returned undamaged.

Suppose the buyer had removed the card for inspection in such a way that the holder was undamaged. He discovers the card is doctored. Would it be OK for him to put the now known doctored card back into the original GAI 7 holder and return to the seller in the identical condition it was received?

Simon(not sure why you started this but it is fun), the product was a Gehrig card in a GAI slab.

Have a great day everyone.:D

[Mark17]

Simon(not sure why you started this but it is fun), the product was a Gehrig card in a GAI slab.

Have a great day everyone.:D

So.....Suppose the buyer had removed the card for inspection in such a way that the holder was undamaged. He discovers the card is doctored. Would it be OK for him to put the now known doctored card back into the original GAI 7 holder and return to the seller in the identical condition it was received?

[cardsnstuff]

George, you can add all the if's and but's you want, plain and simple the buyer altered the item and should not get a refund. Go to Walmart or where ever you shop and buy a coat. Then cut off the sleeves and try and return it. How is that different?

Excellent Point....