PWCC Auction Ending Tonight - Interesting Results

[Rhotchkiss]

Seems to me that prices so far are very low. Currently, I am not bidding with them. But I have been watching the auction, and each of these lots finished way below recent sales: E90-1 Cobb PSA 5; T206 Matty dark cap PSA 6; T206 Young with glove SGC 6; E98 Cobb PSA 9, which ended at $20,900. This last one is particularly noteworthy bc, according to VCP, this is at least $5000 less than any E98 Cobb PSA 9 has sold for since at least 2013; it’s $10k less than the same exact card “sold” for a month ago in a PWCC auction; and almost every sale since 2013 has been $30k+

Is this just a down auction or is all this “stuff” taking it’s toll on PWCC. Thoughts?

[pcoz]

Ryan, you could be on to something with PWCC, but I don’t think the time of the year helps either. After the National, a bunch of big auction houses have had their auctions finish up recently, and thousands of lots have just wiped out many bank accounts. Every year this Aug-Sept period appears a bit soft to me.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe people will stop consigning. It would be well deserved.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Maybe counsel has advised them that shill bidding during an investigation is a bad look...

[Ronnie73]

Maybe counsel has advised them that shill bidding during an investigation is a bad look...

That's what I was thinking. There was no where near the same amount of last second bidding like there usually is.

[LincolnVT]

I guess, I would agree with Ryan that the prices seemed low last night. I also think that Petes comment about the timing of the auction / people being tapped out has merit. As for the PSA 9 E98 Cobb, I think that card would have reached 35k plus in other auctions as they have been bringing nearly 40 in other major auctions recently. People consigning items should go where they can get the best price for their item. 1 + 1 still equals 2, right?

[ullmandds]

I guess, I would agree with Ryan that the prices seemed low last night. I also think that Petes comment about the timing of the auction / people being tapped out has merit. As for the PSA 9 E98 Cobb, I think that card would have reached 35k plus in other auctions as they have been bringing nearly 40 in other major auctions recently. People consigning items should go where they can get the best price for their item. 1 + 1 still equals 2, right?

perhaps your opinion on the cobb is biased?

[BigBeerGut]

Do not forget the FOOTBALL factor September is a bad month to sell Baseball.

[iowadoc77]

perhaps your opinion on the cobb is biased?

My thoughts exactly. Always different when one has skin in the game

[calvindog]

I guess, I would agree with Ryan that the prices seemed low last night. I also think that Petes comment about the timing of the auction / people being tapped out has merit. As for the PSA 9 E98 Cobb, I think that card would have reached 35k plus in other auctions as they have been bringing nearly 40 in other major auctions recently. People consigning items should go where they can get the best price for their item. 1 + 1 still equals 2, right?

I think the E98 Cobb didn’t receive a higher bid is because most collectors are concerned that tomorrow another 100 pristine Cobbs could show up — which brings all sorts of questions including relating to authenticity of these high grade E98s. And why spend 30K on a card like that when you can spend it on a rare Cobb which will stay rare? I’ve got an extensive Cobb collection and for these reasons I’d never buy a high grade E98 Cobb.

[LincolnVT]

I respect your opinion and your Cobb collection, but I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing another batch of high end E98 cards. And yes, I am a bit biased on the E98 Cobb. Also VERY happily to have one and I'm not alone. I think the next time that a 9 is offered in a non-PWCC auction it is close to 40. Beautiful cards IMO.

[calvindog]

I respect your opinion and your Cobb collection, but I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing another batch of high end E98 cards. And yes, I am a bit biased on the E98 Cobb. Also VERY happily to have one and I'm not alone. I think the next time that a 9 is offered in a non-PWCC auction it is close to 40. Beautiful cards IMO.

40????? Not even close to 30. The only way that card reaches 40 is if the starting bid is 40 - and just one person pulls the trigger.

[ullmandds]

not to hijack this thread...or beat on anyone...but according to VCP e98 cobb psa9 is trending lower than in the past.

With the current scandal rocking the hobby the mentality that everything just keeps going up over time will be shown to be untrue...imho of course.

[Leon]

Definitely not true.
Actually, except for conspiracy theorists there is no authenticity question on the Black Swamp cards. The rest of the stuff I agree with and have almost always gone for rarity over condition.
I have held off bidding on some cards due to the scandal. I can't imagine collecting high grade stuff after what has been shown. But many, if not most collectors, have stuck their head in the sand or don't care if they have high grade altered cards in their collections. Personally it would bug me.

There could be several factors as to why PWCC isn't getting the prices right now. We all know what they are.

I think the E98 Cobb didn’t receive a higher bid is because most collectors are concerned that tomorrow another 100 pristine Cobbs could show up — which brings all sorts of questions including relating to authenticity of these high grade E98s. And why spend 30K on a card like that when you can spend it on a rare Cobb which will stay rare? I’ve got an extensive Cobb collection and for these reasons I’d never buy a high grade E98 Cobb.

[KMayUSA6060]

not to hijack this thread...or beat on anyone...but according to VCP e98 cobb psa9 is trending lower than in the past.

With the current scandal rocking the hobby the mentality that everything just keeps going up over time will be shown to be untrue...imho of course.

I think the scandal affects the higher grade stuff more than anything else due to skepticism.

[frankbmd]

I think the scandal effects the higher grade stuff more than anything else due to skepticism.

You say it effects,

I say it affects.

Let’s call the whole thing off.:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fred and Ginger on roller skates -- classic.

[LincolnVT]

I need to agree with Leon on this one. The BSW cards have provenance...if one wants to purchase a high grade card, now more than ever provenance is important. My reason for picking one up while I was able. And yes, I think close to 40k in the next non-PWCC auctions for a PSA 9...I think the average sale for BSF 9s is in the 35k to 38k range based on past PSA 9 sales.

Definitely not true.
Actually, except for conspiracy theorists there is no authenticity question on the Black Swamp cards. The rest of the stuff I agree with and have almost always gone for rarity over condition.
I have held off bidding on some cards due to the scandal. I can't imagine collecting high grade stuff after what has been shown. But many, if not most collectors, have stuck their head in the sand or don't care if they have high grade altered cards in their collections. Personally it would bug me.

There could be several factors as to why PWCC isn't getting the prices right now. We all know what they are.

[KMayUSA6060]

You say it effects,

I say it affects.

Let’s call the whole thing off.:D

Excuse my millennial brain. To hell with the English language and its complications. This is why we make things simpler by leaving out letters and using acronyms. So thx 4 correcting me. FWIW, I learned sumthing. :o ;)

[frankbmd]

You say it effects,

I say it affects.

Let’s call the whole thing off.:D

Excuse my millennial brain. To hell with the English language and its complications. This is why we make thing simpler by leaving out letters and using acronyms. So thx 4 correcting me. FWIW, I learned sumthing. :o ;)

My post had the intended effect.:D

[ullmandds]

I also do not question the authenticity of the BST cards...just the value based on plentifulness!

Rarity over grade anyday everyday in my book!!!!!!

[calvindog]

I need to agree with Leon on this one. The BSW cards have provenance...if one wants to purchase a high grade card, now more than ever provenance is important. My reason for picking one up while I was able. And yes, I think close to 40k in the next non-PWCC auctions for a PSA 9...I think the average sale for BSF 9s is in the 35k to 38k range based on past PSA 9 sales.

Ethan, with all respect, and I'm not trying to harsh your buzz, but the card went for under 21K because that's what it's worth. Maybe on a good day it's worth 25K? Had your SGC 9.5 been won in a bidding war I'd tend to have more empathy for your argument but you were the only one who bid on it -- for a reason. No one else wanted it at 36K -- for a reason. Unlike you, additionally, I have no personal financial bias for my argument, i.e. I wasn't the sole bidder on the card which makes up the bulk of my collection.

[drcy]

Maybe counsel has advised them that shill bidding during an investigation is a bad look...

Maybe the shillers are not consigning.

[drcy]

Ethan, with all respect, and I'm not trying to harsh your buzz, but the card went for under 21K because that's what it's worth.

That may be what people here are saying. In this hobby, cards often don't sell, or "sell", for what they are worth.

I haven't trusted, or at least take with a large grain of salt, hobby "final prices realized at auction" for a long, long time. Beyond artificially raised prices due to shilling and valuations based on these artificially high or false prices, we all know that VCP and other 'price realized' lists include "sales" where there was no sale. And, with the current scandal, the hobby is realizing that, even if there was a sale, they can't even be sure what was sold-- though they sometimes find out the next week on BO.

Fake cards, or fake grade cards as in the case of the current scandal, can affect the market values of the cards that are known and proven to be real. Fro Joy Ruths are perhaps the best example. We know which Fro Joy Ruths are genuine, but all the past confusion has been "institutionalized" into the book and market prices. When sellers have to give each every potential bidder a history lesson, two-page essay and links to further reading to explain that "this PSA 9 is considered genuine but those others we don't know about and some are probably false and, to be candid, there are serious and widespread questions in the hobby as to whether PSA can even identify if a card is altered or not," the market value for PSA 9s across the board will be affected.

[LincolnVT]

Are you suggesting that the PSA 9 E98 that sold last night in PWCC might not be authentic? If so, I disagree. Back to Pete's point, there were two other major auctions taking place when I picked up my 9.5, so potential bidders could have been tapped out or committed to other cards. Either way, I'm happy with my card and would likely have paid more for it if I had to. If you look around, I think that you will find that the high grade Ty Cobb E98s have sold recently in the $37,500 range...you can disagree with me, but my opinion is that they will continue to be sought after by collectors in the right auctions.

I think the E98 Cobb didn’t receive a higher bid is because most collectors are concerned that tomorrow another 100 pristine Cobbs could show up — which brings all sorts of questions including relating to authenticity of these high grade E98s. And why spend 30K on a card like that when you can spend it on a rare Cobb which will stay rare? I’ve got an extensive Cobb collection and for these reasons I’d never buy a high grade E98 Cobb.

[Rhotchkiss]

Let’s get back to the generally low prices of the pwcc auction and off the specific e98 Cobb.

Jeff, I just shot you an email on a totally unrelated (fun card stuff) matter.

[calvindog]

David, fake sales prices are usually high ones, not low ones like the E98 last night.

And Ethan, no, I think the PSA 9 that sold last night is authentic. I just think high end E98s are not for everyone with money because of the huge populations in high grades. It's just not that special a card to everyone for that reason. The important thing is you love your card and that's all that should matter, no need to flog it here.

[Johnny630]

Let’s get back to the generally low prices of the pwcc auction and off the specific e98 Cobb.

Jeff, I just shot you an email on a totally unrelated (fun card stuff) matter.

Exactly...... the tide is turning over there.... the so called market, developed by them, in the general/grand scheme of things is set up perfectly for a major pull back.......

[RedsFan1941]

expect more black swamp cards to hit the market for the first time in the coming months and years. this isn’t an opinion. it doesn’t question the authenticity of any of the bsf cards. it just means they are many more of them than was disclosed at the time of the find. nothing wrong with that either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

expect more black swamp cards to hit the market for the first time in the coming months and years. this isn’t an opinion. it doesn’t question the authenticity of any of the bsf cards. it just means they are many more of them than was disclosed at the time of the find. nothing wrong with that either.

I have heard the same thing, that the family, or perhaps it was only some family members, held a large portion back. I guess these finds can be a double edged sword. I recall there was a huge find of high number 52 Bowmans at one point that drove prices way down.

[LincolnVT]

My understanding is that all BSF cards have now been graded by SGC or PSA. There was another wave of them -- I believe from a family member that held their portion of the cards back. That said, some BSF cards (like others) will move back and forth from SGC and PSA holders. If you think about it, the high grade E98 cards, even post BSF are quite rare compared to many collectible issues out there.

It will be interesting to see how PWCC auctions fair in the coming months.

[ullmandds]

Frank oh frank!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

My understanding is that all BSF cards have now been graded by SGC or PSA. There was another wave of them -- I believe from a family member that held their portion of the cards back. That said, some BSF cards (like others) will move back and forth from SGC and PSA holders. If you think about it, the high grade E98 cards, even post BSF are quite rare compared to many collectible issues out there.

It will be interesting to see how PWCC auctions fair in the coming months.

22 PSA 9s (Cobb) is quite rare??? Compared to what?

[calvindog]

22 PSA 9s (Cobb) is quite rare??? Compared to what?

1979 Topps
1980 Topps
1981 Topps

[pokerplyr80]

I thought 9k for the e90-1 Cobb psa 5 was about where I expected to end. I certainly wouldn't say way below market value. There is another that's been sitting at just under 11k on ebay.

[LincolnVT]

Just saying the post BSF combined population report for all (color variations) E98 Cobbs is 139...pretty rare considered to the combined population of his T-206 cards, no?

1979 Topps
1980 Topps
1981 Topps

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

yes, but the percentage of that 139 that is high grade is crazy compared to the percentage of T206. Coupled with the lower demand (and believe it or not the BSF cratered overall demand for the set) and it's just a tough spot economically for the top end cards. When a set has no graded examples over 6, and then suddenly the total population triples and nearly ALL the new cards are OVER 6 it's not great. I know a few guys who had completed, or were working on sets who got out of them after BSF because their PSA 4 average sets were now pointless.

[Rhotchkiss]

I thought 9k for the e90-1 Cobb psa 5 was about where I expected to end. I certainly wouldn't say way below market value. There is another that's been sitting at just under 11k on ebay.

The one on eBay is wicked diamond cut, regardless of grade. And the only PSA 5 sale since 2018 was a pretty one in memory lane for just under $10.9k. Perhaps $8900 is not way below market, but there is no way either the consignor or pwcc is happy with that result.

[drcy]

David, fake sales prices are usually high ones, not low ones like the E98 last night.

That's exactly what I said (or implied).

The strikingly low auction price(s) may be because it's a real, honest sale without the common hobby "bells and whistles" (euphemism).

[Leon]

The set had many examples graded above a 6 before the find. Not a lot and they were rare. But I know of at least one set that probably averaged 7 or so...before the find.

However, depending on how things go the BSF cards might gain some steam because of their provenance and all of the fraudulently altered cards in high grade holders without provenance except back to Moser types. So maybe really high grade unaltered cards, in holders or not, will be more valuable in the future. I am not the only doubting Thomas concerning high grade vintage in numerical holders. Eventually I will get a BSF card because I want one. The time hasn't been right yet and I doubt I get a very expensive one either. I would like it nicely centered though. :)


yes, but the percentage of that 139

that is high grade is crazy compared to the percentage of T206. Coupled with the lower demand (and believe it or not the BSF cratered overall demand for the set) and it's just a tough spot economically for the top end cards. When a set has no graded examples over 6, and then suddenly the total population triples and nearly ALL the new cards are OVER 6 it's not great. I know a few guys who had completed, or were working on sets who got out of them after BSF because their PSA 4 average sets were now pointless.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The set had many examples graded above a 6 before the find. Not a lot and they were rare. But I know of at least one set that probably averaged 7 or so...before the find.

However, depending on how things go the BSF cards might gain some steam because of their provenance and all of the fraudulently altered cards in high grade holders without provenance except back to Moser types. So maybe really high grade unaltered cards, in holders or not, will be more valuable in the future. I I am the only doubting Thomas concerning high grade vintage in numerical holders. Eventually I will get a BSF card because I want one. The time hasn't been right yet and I doubt I get a very expensive one either. I would like it nicely centered though. :)

Not sure where I heard that the highest grade pre was a "6" but shame on me for passing it along unresearched.

[Republicaninmass]

I need to agree with Leon on this one. The BSW cards have provenance...if one wants to purchase a high grade card, now more than ever provenance is important. My reason for picking one up while I was able. And yes, I think close to 40k in the next non-PWCC auctions for a PSA 9...I think the average sale for BSF 9s is in the 35k to 38k range based on past PSA 9 sales.

Sure, riddle me this. Why were they so miscut, when not a single example had ever surfaced before nor after bearing this trait?

[barrysloate]

I predicted in another thread that this Cobb would sell for quite a bit less than its last auction appearance, so I am not surprised at all. There are simply too many BSF cards, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the appearance is the same ones keep being offered for sale again and again. When was the last time anyone has seen a major auction without multiple BSF cards? There seems to be a never ending supply, and the market is burned out.

Add to that the possibility that the family held back a lot more E98's, and you can see why prices are going down. There is no sense of these being rare. Instead, they are seen by many as The Black Swamp Glut.

[trambo]

22 PSA 9s (Cobb) is quite rare??? Compared to what?

1988 Donruss Gregg Jefferies
1990 Sportflics (any)

[drcy]

1988 Donruss Gregg Jefferies
1990 Sportflics (any)


Sportflix??? No!!!!!!!!! I was told mine was the only one!

[LincolnVT]

So, let me try offer some perspective. There are 139 (combined pop SGC and PSA) E98 Cobb cards and 136 (combined pop SGC and PSA) 1914 Cracker Jack cards...someone else in this thread has said that maybe 22 or so of the E98 Cobbs were mint+...if the same find applied to another issue like the "rare" 1914 CJ Cobb is it safe to say that people wouldn't be clamoring to get a high graded example? Or is it that people just don't like the pose of the E98. Lol.

To each their own. I love having a piece of what I see as a once in a lifetime find. The cards are stunning to hold in hand. I think I've said my piece on this topic...

Cheers!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sure, riddle me this. Why were they so miscut, when not a single example had ever surfaced before nor after bearing this trait?

Theory?

[Republicaninmass]

Theory?Cast offs? No clue but it always seemed strange most these examples are unique in that way

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Cast offs? No clue but it always seemed strange most these examples are unique in that way

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A run that was rejected perhaps, and now people are paying 50K for one.:D

[Republicaninmass]

A run that was rejected perhaps, and now people are paying 50K for one.:DAint that a kick in the rear! I always felt the real nice centered minor HOFers in psa 9 would eventually see a spike in price.

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[ullmandds]

Theory?

I suppose it’s possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe that’s how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesn’t make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?

[ullmandds]

Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss these cards? Are there known e98 uncut sheets??

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suppose it’s possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe that’s how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesn’t make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?

Almost no Mathewsons, right?

[ullmandds]

Almost no Mathewsons, right?

I believe so?

[Baseball Rarities]

Almost no Mathewsons, right?

Very few, if any, cards of Jennings, Lajoie, Mathewson, Tinker and Walsh.

[Leon]

This. :)
Not sure why there were fewer of certain players but there is 0 doubt in my mind, and most other collectors, that the cards are real and authentic....and almost untouched. BTW the family members couldn't have been nicer. I met them at the National (with Heritage) when they were originally found.

The PWCC auction had some lower prices but we'll just have to see how it goes in the future. I imagine a lot of factors play into it and one of them is less bidders.

I suppose it’s possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe that’s how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesn’t make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?

[Exhibitman]

How are the non-find E98s selling?

[pcoz]

The Blues, which none were in the BSF, have seen stronger prices over the last few years from what I’ve seen.


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[LincolnVT]

You still thinking the next PSA 9 E98 Cobb doesn't bring close to $30k?

40????? Not even close to 30. The only way that card reaches 40 is if the starting bid is 40 - and just one person pulls the trigger.

[calvindog]

I like red cards.

[Leon]

No need to be an arse.
For the record, people who follow others around the forum giving them a hard time, usually end up never giving them (or anyone) a hard time on this forum anymore.

Concerning the original subject I will offer my same comment from before....

The PWCC auction had some lower prices but we'll just have to see how it goes in the future. I imagine a lot of factors play into it and one of them is less bidders.


I like red cards..

[Rhotchkiss]

Reviving this thread to get your thoughts on the PWCC auction that ended last night. Namely, what did you think of the vintage offerings and final hammer prices in last night's auction?

I would loved to own the E92 Nadja Lajoie, which went cheap (40% less than the same card sold for 2008), but I am currently not bidding with PWCC.

I thought the two T206 Green Cobbs (PSA 4.5 and SGC 4.5) went cheap. I thought the M116 Blue Wagner, the T206 Lajoie and Wajo Portraits, and the T206 Matty PB, all went for about what they were worth. The one card I was watching that exceeded expectations was the T206 Tinker portrait PSA 6.

All-in-all, I thought the pre 1920-vintage offerings were relatively weak and I thought the prices were unremarkable, which is a good thing/sign.

Thoughts?

[Goudey77]

A lot of bargains to be had. I'm waiting for REA fall results to indicate if we are seeing a cool off in pre war vintage. It could just be a seasonal thing.

Either way i'm always impressed with the monthly PWCC consignments.

[robkas68]

I guess it depends what you were watching. A w517 Ruth psa 8 went for $5,555. Same card went for $1,503 in 2017.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well I just sold a raw one that might garner a 2 for $500+ so $1503 is definitely low for today's market.

[Rhotchkiss]

I guess it depends what you were watching.

No doubt. I only watch what I watch and I can only comment on those items. That’s one of the reasons I request input from the board.

[x2drich2000]

Ryan, the Nadja Lajoie definitely went cheaper than it should. I put in a half-hearted bid hoping to get lucky, but held back because of what is coming up in REA, HA, and LOTG. Had this card been posted a month ago, I would have definitely bid more than what the final price.

[Republicaninmass]

A signed 52t feller did 150$ about twice the going rate for a nice copy

[JackW]

Kudos to Ryan for continuing not to patronize PWCC. When hobby leaders speak with their wallets, the message will be heard. Bravo!

[RCMcKenzie]

I had the Lajoie, Bender Cocoa and Clarke Pitts on my watch-list. I'm not a conscientious objector and would have bid if I thought I was getting a bargain. The auction season is getting ready to heat up for sure. Good luck, gang. Rob

[1952boyntoncollector]

I thought the prices were pretty strong for the key cards like HOF big name 1950s rookies and Ruth etc..

[Rhotchkiss]

Jack, I appreciate the kind works (albeit overstated/misguided!).

I am not happy with PWCC or PSA, among others (PSA actually disgusts me most of all). And while I want neither to "go down", I do want them to make changes so that the hobby is more honest and accurate. Nobody changes without a catalyst. Perhaps these message boards and the awesome work that BODA is doing will be that catalyst; perhaps it will be this ongoing FBI investigation we hear about from time-to-time; perhaps it will be neither of these, but will be something else; or maybe there will be no changes because no catalyst is sufficient to force change. Who knows. All I know at this time is what I can control - my buying habits. And if enough of us speak with our wallets, perhaps we can collectively be a catalyst. So why not try?

I do think collectors' buying and selling habits are having a tangible effect on PWCC, at least with respect to pre-1920 vintage. I have found their last 3-4 auctions to be weak on 1920 and older, vintage offerings (especially T206), and I find the selling prices for the items they have offered to be weak. I believe this could be because less people are consigning with them and less people are bidding with them; I also think less people are shilling.

Please understand that I want very badly to start bidding with PWCC again -- historically they have great stuff and have been one of the best AHs for the cards I collect. But I will not bid with them until I am satisfied that they are more honest. And, I encourage everyone to act similarly toward anyone you believe has had a material role in perpetuating/encouraging the fraud and crime now being exposed . That is the least I/we can do.

Regarding PSA -- well that's a whole different story. I don't know how one collects and boycotts PSA. If I did that, I would have to pass on too many items, and considering that BVG is dogshit with vintage (yes, I said that -- Ryan Hotchkiss), and SGC has its skeletons and issues too, I might as well "hang'em up" if I cease collecting cards that happen to reside in PSA flips. And I don't want to give up collecting. I recognize that maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I struggle with this one.

[Leon]

Well said, Ryan.
There is no way to not buy TPG graded cards if you are in our space and want really nice cards. So, I am just collecting things I am comfortable are not fraudulent. That means very few high grade pre war cards (never had many but really pass on them now.) will be getting my bids. When I see cards with micro borders in TPG holders I chuckle. Collect what you like and be careful, especially of cards in TPG holders. :)

Jack, I appreciate the kind works (albeit overstated/misguided!).

I am not happy with PWCC or PSA, among others (PSA actually disgusts me most of all). And while I want neither to "go down", I do want them to make changes so that the hobby is more honest and accurate. Nobody changes without a catalyst. Perhaps these message boards and the awesome work that BODA is doing will be that catalyst; perhaps it will be this ongoing FBI investigation we hear about from time-to-time; perhaps it will be neither of these, but will be something else; or maybe there will be no changes because no catalyst is sufficient to force change. Who knows. All I know at this time is what I can control - my buying habits. And if enough of us speak with our wallets, perhaps we can collectively be a catalyst. So why not try?

I do think collectors' buying and selling habits are having a tangible effect on PWCC, at least with respect to pre-1920 vintage. I have found their last 3-4 auctions to be weak on 1920 and older, vintage offerings (especially T206), and I find the selling prices for the items they have offered to be weak. I believe this could be because less people are consigning with them and less people are bidding with them; I also think less people are shilling.

Please understand that I want very badly to start bidding with PWCC again -- historically they have great stuff and have been one of the best AHs for the cards I collect. But I will not bid with them until I am satisfied that they are more honest. And, I encourage everyone to act similarly toward anyone you believe has had a material role in perpetuating/encouraging the fraud and crime now being exposed . That is the least I/we can do.

Regarding PSA -- well that's a whole different story. I don't know how one collects and boycotts PSA. If I did that, I would have to pass on too many items, and considering that BVG is dogshit with vintage (yes, I said that -- Ryan Hotchkiss), and SGC has its skeletons and issues too, I might as well "hang'em up" if I cease collecting cards that happen to reside in PSA flips. And I don't want to give up collecting. I recognize that maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I struggle with this one.

[DeanH3]

+1 with the well said Ryan. In order to continue collecting what I like, TPG has to be an option. I do believe there are a ton of unaltered cards out there to be had. I know my preference have morphed some. Not only the meteoric rise in prices on nice mid-grade, but this recent scandal has caused me to accept some more flaws I may not have in the past. Still lovin the nice fat bordered T206's like Leon's above.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

[perezfan]

Yup.... Bad cards in PSA slabs are now everywhere. PWCC is a very small chunk of it.

[Goudey77]

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.

[Goudey77]

I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.

Yeah it only we could do a Noah's Ark thing...

[Rhotchkiss]

Yes, the hobby is a mess, and it’s hardly restricted to PWCC. But there are plenty of other threads to state and restate that obvious fact. This thread is about PWCC and their most recent auctions. Can we please keep the comments here restricted to that. Thank you

[theuclakid]

i was interested in the PWCC 57 Williams PSA 6.5 last night....it went for well over $600 (a solid 7 price)....clearly there was shill bidding going on, as the bidder with 98% activity with PWCC was high bidder....just dont trust his auctions, low bids or not.....Bruce Perry

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

Maybe, but I would maintain that there are few auction houses the size of PWCC that are actively participating in the altering of cards.

[calvindog]

I guess, I would agree with Ryan that the prices seemed low last night. I also think that Petes comment about the timing of the auction / people being tapped out has merit. As for the PSA 9 E98 Cobb, I think that card would have reached 35k plus in other auctions as they have been bringing nearly 40 in other major auctions recently. People consigning items should go where they can get the best price for their item. 1 + 1 still equals 2, right?

You still thinking the next PSA 9 E98 Cobb doesn't bring close to $30k?

You suggested that the only reason the PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $20,900 in PWCC was because people don't bid in PWCC as much anymore. Well, tonight in Heritage a PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $19,200. The card is dead because they're a dime a dozen now as I had said.

[pokerplyr80]

i was interested in the PWCC 57 Williams PSA 6.5 last night....it went for well over $600 (a solid 7 price)....clearly there was shill bidding going on, as the bidder with 98% activity with PWCC was high bidder....just dont trust his auctions, low bids or not.....Bruce Perry

You mean the dead centered card with excellent eye appeal that out sold a 7 in the same auction? Yea clearly it was shilled. No one pays over vcp for centered cards, right?

[pokerplyr80]

As to the rest of the current pwcc auction there seem to be more nice Cobb cards available compared to recent auctions. Maybe one guy consigned them all. Should be easy enough to compare prices to auctions ending this week at heritage and REA to see if the net54 boycott is hurting prices.

[frankbmd]

Any Net54 boycott has to have a tremendous effect on auction results.

After all we are such a unified monolithic caucus where seldom is heard a disparaging word and every day is filled with sunshine and good will.

[bobbyw8469]

You mean the dead centered card with excellent eye appeal that out sold a 7 in the same auction? Yea clearly it was shilled. No one pays over vcp for centered cards, right?

I just got a record price for a 1958 Koufax PSA 4 simply because it was centered. I was shocked it brought that much. But everyone knows that of all 4 criteria, centering is boss.

[pokerplyr80]

I just got a record price for a 1958 Koufax PSA 4 simply because it was centered. I was shocked it brought that much. But everyone knows that of all 4 criteria, centering is boss.

Apparently not everyone knows.

[Snapolit1]

I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

[bobbyw8469]

Apparently not everyone knows.

Not everyone knows what?

[bnorth]

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

Your landlord analogy is perfect here. I know a few "Slum Lords" and they do 100% always come out on top. They have been making WAY more for a very long time because of the way they do business. The getting caught is just a minor bump in the big picture. In reality the landlords have it harder because they don't have a bunch of morons and idiots making excuses for them. Strangely they do have morons and idiots lining up to do business with them even though they know what they are getting into.

One other great thing with the scammers in cards is their "friends". I noticed at first everyone hated the card doctors. Then when names started coming out many of the same people switched their hate to PSA. Guess it sucks when you find out your "friend" is a bad guy.

[perezfan]

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

I agree with this. There's no shortage of other outlets who feature the same exact cards, with far less margin for error. And while PWCC may survive this (which remains to be seen, based on the severity of punishment from LE), I also believe their best days are behind them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

If only there was one landlord ripping everyone off.

[Bigdaddy]

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.

[Snapolit1]

Interesting to me how many 7 and 8s Goudeys and US Caramels and Cracker Jacks PWCC used to have compared to what they sell today. I would hate to look back 2 years and take a hard look at what they were selling back then. Every auction seemed to have 3 Gehrig Goudey 7s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.

Lots of people are enabling card doctors to bring their material to market.

[Johnny630]

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.

You’re spot on with your last part.

PSA is Teflon it doesn’t matter if they grade bad cards or not. The cards keep coming in for their opinion.

[pokerplyr80]

Not everyone knows what?

That centered cards go for a premium. It seems to confuse members every time. Some assume the sale was fake, or the auction shilled. Many turn out to be legitimate transactions from collectors who stepped up to obtain a nice looking card. Some even make a post defending their purchase.

[Republicaninmass]

The only thing that CANT be doctored, is centering. I guess you can make it look better, but centered cards are ripe for doctors

[perezfan]

The only thing that CANT be doctored, is centering. I guess you can make it look better, but centered cards are ripe for doctors

Centering is doctored ALL THE TIME. How many hundreds of the cards exposed on BO recently have one border trimmed, to emulate the other side? The doctors are hacking off large portions of the thicker border, simply to even them up.

PSA can't (or won't) catch it, even though the altered cards are undersized. Check out the Johnny Adams Jr. thread on Blowout for many examples of this process...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1333320&page=10

[JackW]

Yes, I didn't really understand that post.

[Republicaninmass]

Centering is doctored ALL THE TIME. How many hundreds of the cards exposed on BO recently have one border trimmed, to emulate the other side? The doctors are hacking off large portions of the thicker border, simply to even them up.

PSA can't (or won't) catch it, even though the altered cards are undersized. Check out the Johnny Adams Jr. thread on Blowout for many examples of this process...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1333320&page=10Easier to START with a centered card was my point

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Easier to START with a centered card was my point

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Perhaps a tad easier I suppose, but these guys have absolutely no trouble getting their hack jobs authenticated and numerically graded by PSA.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

Focusing on this portion of your response I would agree that the quickest change possible is possible here, but people have to vote with their cards and their cash.

If the cards start going to the REA's, Sterling's, LOTG's etc... the dollars will follow. Likewise if the dollars stop going to PWCC consignments the consignments will go elsewhere. This COULD be an incredibly quick process if ethics outweighed money and "stuff." Even here on Net54 which is pretty close to the epicenter of the scandal we have people still consigning and buying from bad actors. Every sale and consignment decreases the chance that the guilty parties have to find a new way to make a living.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

.

[calvindog]

Focusing on this portion of your response I would agree that the quickest change possible is possible here, but people have to vote with their cards and their cash.

If the cards start going to the REA's, Sterling's, LOTG's etc... the dollars will follow. Likewise if the dollars stop going to PWCC consignments the consignments will go elsewhere. This COULD be an incredibly quick process if ethics outweighed money and "stuff." Even here on Net54 which is pretty close to the epicenter of the scandal we have people still consigning and buying from bad actors. Every sale and consignment decreases the chance that the guilty parties have to find a new way to make a living.

Tell me, who are the good actors?

[Flintboy]

There are people who deal with others on this board with honesty and integrity. I consider them “good actors”.

There are people who have gone silent since this scandal has broke who used to post quite often on here........

[edhans]

.

Even here on Net54 which is pretty close to the epicenter of the scandal we have people still consigning and buying from bad actors.

Not to mention doing bulk submissions to PSA.

[Johnny630]

Not to mention doing bulk submissions to PSA.

It’s all about the money....They still perceive PSA slabs around their cards will bring them more money when they sell.

PSA has a Teflon Business people flock to them it doesn’t matter how many altered cards they slab. Pop and Registry have them hooked like a trailer.

PSA has been smart having yet to address any of the underlying issues with their company grading tens of thousands of bad altered cards. They know people are hooked and many rely/need them for their business ....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them. This continues to prove itself day in and day out based on submission and altered cards in their holders showing up in the Major Auction Houses.
Right, Wrong or Indifferent........ PSA they’re here to stay only getting stronger.

[buymycards]

It’s all about the money....They still perceive PSA slabs around their cards will bring them more money when they sell.

PSA has a Teflon Business people flock to them it doesn’t matter how many altered cards they slab. Pop and Registry have them hooked like a trailer.

PSA has been smart having yet to address any of the underlying issues with their company grading tens of thousands of bad altered cards. They know people are hooked and many rely/need them for their business ....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them. This continues to prove itself day in and day out based on submission and altered cards in their holders showing up in the Major Auction Houses.
Right, Wrong or Indifferent........ PSA they’re here to stay only getting stronger.

I agree that PSA is getting stronger. A few months ago I was at a card show and I was looking at an SGC 30 T206 Walter Johnson. The seller was asking $450, and I thought that was a decent price, but I decided not to buy it. A couple of months later, I went to another show and looked up the dealer and asked him if he still had the Johnson, and I planned on buying it. However, he had sent it to PSA and it came back as a PSA 2. The dealer told me that now that it was in a PSA holder he was asking $650, so of course, I didn't buy it.

Same card, same grade, different grading company, but $200 higher asking price. As a buyer, that formula doesn't add up for me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Tell me, who are the good actors?

I wasn't being cryptic I named three that seem like "good guys" to me and I'm sure there are others.

[bobbyw8469]

Not to mention doing bulk submissions to PSA.

I don't trim my cards. I don't add color to my cards. Let's speak hypothetically. Because there are criminals living in my town, am I supposed to move?? Some of you really need to get off the holier than thou attitude.

[bnorth]

I don't trim my cards. I don't add color to my cars. Because there are criminals living in my town, am I supposed to move?? Some of you really need to get off the holier than thou attitude.

People are nice enough to leave your silly thread alone you should do the same.

Do you support those criminals like you support PSA? Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand and see PSA is part of the problem and people like you who keep submitting to them are also part of the problem.

[bobbyw8469]

I never told Gary Moser to trim cards and make millions. Meanwhile, I am struggling to make $5-$10 flipping a card. Yet I am supposed to stop submitting my raw cards to PSA because of what Gary Moser did? The soapbox mentality of some of you get old.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wasn't being cryptic I named three that seem like "good guys" to me and I'm sure there are others.

You did better than Diogenes, he couldn't come up with one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion, I don't think it's reasonable or fair to expect people to take big hits to their livelihood in order to make a statement.

[Bigdaddy]

I never told Gary Moser to trim cards and make millions. Meanwhile, I am struggling to make $5-$10 flipping a card. Yet I am supposed to stop submitting my raw cards to PSA because of what Gary Moser did? The soapbox mentality of some of you get old.

No, not "because of what Gary Moser did." Not at all. You stop submitting to PSA because of what PSA is accused of doing.

The point is that 'we', the community, not the lawyers, the courts or the FBI, can collectively decide the outcome of this by exercising our ability to choose who we want to deal with and who we don't.

It don't always agree with the reasoning or outcome, but this is happening everywhere we turn today. The press has even coined a term for it: 'Cancel Culture'.

[bnorth]

In my opinion, I don't think it's reasonable or fair to expect people to take big hits to their livelihood in order to make a statement.

I agree when talking about REAL tax paying honest dealers. BLEEP the dishonest dealers and the scabs that are not paying taxes that sell a lot of cards.

I am sure Bobby who sells a lot of cards is a honest licensed tax paying dealer because he would never be a criminal.

[Johnny630]

I don't trim my cards. I don't add color to my cards. Let's speak hypothetically. Because there are criminals living in my town, am I supposed to move?? Some of you really need to get off the holier than thou attitude.

I agree with you on many aspects but let this thread be about bashing the bad apples lol you’re not one of them.
I have nothing against you for submitting to PSA I don’t think you’re the problem one bit :-)

My points in my previous post are direct,
to the point, and exactly what it is. That’s all I don’t begrudge anyone.

[edhans]

Some of you really need to get off the holier than thou attitude.

It's not a matter of holiness, Bobby. It's about principles. Your continued support of this company sends the message that their aiding and abetting the fraud being perpetrated on the hobby, not to mention the denial thereof, is a perfectly acceptable business practice.

[JackW]

It's not a matter of holiness, Bobby. It's about principles. Your continued support of this company sends the message that their aiding and abetting the fraud being perpetrated on the hobby, not to mention the denial thereof, is a perfectly acceptable business practice.

Well said, Ed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not a matter of holiness, Bobby. It's about principles. Your continued support of this company sends the message that their aiding and abetting the fraud being perpetrated on the hobby, not to mention the denial thereof, is a perfectly acceptable business practice.

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

[pokerplyr80]

The attacks directed at Bobby are ridiculous. There are only 3 grading companies and they're all part of this scandal. Until someone decides to start a new company they're all we have. Many collectors, myself included, aren't going to start only buying raw cards.

[perezfan]

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

There's a difference between selling cards that are already slabbed, and continuing to send massive submissions to a known corrupt entity. The latter is far worse, IMO.

I do believe that the large auction houses should do more research to identify potentially tainted cards and not rely solely on the slab. I also believe they should ban consignments from known card doctors and questionable submitters.

I also believe (when a tainted card is outed) that they should reveal the names of the consignors... both to the Feds and publicly. These people need to be called out, similar to how auction houses publicly identify reneging bidders. Why they continue to protect criminal submitters/consignors is beyond me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's a difference between selling cards that are already slabbed, and continuing to send massive submissions to a known corrupt entity. The latter is far worse, IMO.

I do believe that the large auction houses should do more research to identify potentially tainted cards and not rely solely on the slab. I also believe they should ban consignments from known card doctors and questionable submitters.

I also believe (when a tainted card is outed) that they should reveal the names of the consignors... both to the Feds and publicly. These people need to be called out, similar to how auction houses publicly identify reneging bidders. Why they continue to protect criminal submitters/consignors is beyond me.

So dealers whose livelihood depends on submitting cards should stop, and they (and their families) should take a major financial hit?

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

[edhans]

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

I don't think we can condemn selling cards already in our possession. I have several myself. It's the continued enthusiastic support of PSA in the light of the recent disclosures that troubles me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

The attacks directed at Bobby are ridiculous. There are only 3 grading companies and they're all part of this scandal. Until someone decides to start a new company they're all we have. Many collectors, myself included, aren't going to start only buying raw cards.

I dont agree with how bobby handles things in a lot of other areas for a number of reasons but in terms of submitting to PSA, attacking him for submitting to PSA is silly. Of course he and anyone who doesnt want to lose their shirt will submit to them. Unless others are going to pay our mortgages and kids tuition etc.

At least at this point, it is my understanding there have been no arrests and again, zero _________ (im sure you can fill in the blank) against PSA on this issue. (again correct me if i am wrong)

[perezfan]

So dealers whose livelihood depends on submitting cards should stop, and they (and their families) should take a major financial hit?

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

Regarding the question in bold...

Yes! If they stopped submitting to this particular enterprise, another more ethical competitor would inevitably surface. Sometimes you need to actually take a stand to make things better.

I am sure there were quite a few honest employees at Enron who took a similar financial hit (to name just one other corrupt company). Sometimes temporary setbacks need to happen for the greater good to prevail.

So my answer is a resounding YES.

[Touch'EmAll]

Cards that PWCC has sold over the last few years are starting to show up elsewhere for sale. Upon looking at sales history of a particular card REA has up for auction, it was last sold by PWCC. What are we going to do? Heck if I know. For now, not bid on any PWCC auctions. But what about others sold by PWCC that are filtering out elsewhere? Hopefully, the powers that be get on the moral bandwagon and be extra careful from now on - probably the best that can realistically be done at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Regarding the question in bold...

Yes! If they stopped submitting to this particular enterprise, another more ethical competitor would inevitably surface. Sometimes you need to actually take a stand to make things better.

I am sure there were quite a few honest employees at Enron who took a similar financial hit (to name just one other corrupt company). Sometimes temporary setbacks need to happen for the greater good to prevail.

So my answer is a resounding YES.

So honest people and their families should suffer because PSA is incompetent/corrupt? Sorry, I am not with you on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cards that PWCC has sold over the last few years are starting to show up elsewhere for sale. Upon looking at sales history of a particular card REA has up for auction, it was last sold by PWCC. What are we going to do? Heck if I know. For now, not bid on any PWCC auctions. But what about others sold by PWCC that are filtering out elsewhere? Hopefully, the powers that be get on the moral bandwagon and be extra careful from now on - probably the best that can realistically be done at this point.

PWCC = tip of iceberg.

[edhans]

So honest people and their families should suffer because PSA is incompetent/corrupt? Sorry, I am not with you on this one.

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

[ullmandds]

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

While I agree...if every member of net54 refused to use PSA...it wouldn't even register with PSA...imo.

[Johnny630]

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

Regardless of how many dealers, auction houses, or collectors stop sending cards to PSA there will be new dealers/auction houses, and collectors sending cards to them.

PSA will never acknowledge their role in grading tens of thousands of altered cards . Their volume has never been higher.

Why? Money #1 not Hobby. People are convinced cards in their holders are worth more altered or not, doesn’t matter.. How many altered cards reside in collectors collections that have been bought privately or submitted themselves....the possibilities are endless. PSA knows this will blow over....others will take the fall.

I feel what you’re saying.....it makes total sense...this industry has never made sense logic loses out when the perception of money and greed are paramount, that’s all that matters to many...the bottom line.

[RCMcKenzie]

Gene Hackman, Dustin Hoffman, Robert Duvall, Jon Voight..


All I can do is buy the card and not the holder. I guess I could go collect Beatles records or something. Robert

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If you had to guess, what percentage of collectors do you think actually know about the scandal?

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you had to guess, what percentage of collectors do you think actually know about the scandal?

well i think a larger percentage know about them that are paying $5000 plus a year versus less....or maybe its a another number but you know what i mean

someone paying at total $400 a year on 7 cards on ebay much less of a chance


but yeah..it all comes down to the buyers......if people stop buying cards in certain holders..thats where the impetus is....not people submitting them or selling them....if no buyers...the rest will take care of itself.

[Bigdaddy]

If you had to guess, what percentage of collectors do you think actually know about the scandal?

Less than 20%

[Bigdaddy]

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

PSA only makes money when cards are submitted to them for (re)grading. That's the difference.

A card is what it is, whether it is raw, in a PSA slab or in a penny sleeve. And that holds whether it is altered or not. I think we are now realizing that the PSA premium is not all that we (collectively) thought it was.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Less than 20%

my opinion is WAY less. When dealers at major shows don't know what you're talking about it just hasn't penetrated.

[perezfan]

PSA only makes money when cards are submitted to them for (re)grading. That's the difference.

A card is what it is, whether it is raw, in a PSA slab or in a penny sleeve. And that holds whether it is altered or not. I think we are now realizing that the PSA premium is not all that we (collectively) thought it was.

I was going to answer myself (after REA) since Peter's question was in response was to my comment. But you did it for me.

Thanks.... that is word-for-word what I was going to say.

[perezfan]

my opinion is WAY less. When dealers at major shows don't know what you're talking about it just hasn't penetrated.

Agree.... 5% - 7% is my estimate of total collectors who are aware. Even less, if you factor in any real knowledge of how deep this runs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was going to answer myself (after REA) since Peter's question was in response was to my comment. But you did it for me.

Thanks.... that is word-for-word what I was going to say.

PSA makes money when its cards sell for good value and people are encouraged to keep submitting, so I disagree with you again.

[pokerplyr80]

Agree.... 5% - 7% is my estimate of total collectors who are aware. Even less, if you factor in any real knowledge of how deep this runs.

I doubt 5% of net54 members know how deep it runs. I sure don't.

[Bigdaddy]

PSA makes money when its cards sell for good value and people are encouraged to keep submitting, so I disagree with you again.

PSA doesn't make any money when "people are encouraged to keep submitting". They only make money when people actually submit the cards.

A PSA entombed card can sell 100 times, increasing in value by 20% each time it sells - and PSA does not make a dime off of those transactions. Nada. Zilch.

They are not like the government who taxes you on each transaction.

[Huysmans]

No, not "because of what Gary Moser did." Not at all. You stop submitting to PSA because of what PSA is accused of doing.

The point is that 'we', the community, not the lawyers, the courts or the FBI, can collectively decide the outcome of this by exercising our ability to choose who we want to deal with and who we don't.

It don't always agree with the reasoning or outcome, but this is happening everywhere we turn today. The press has even coined a term for it: 'Cancel Culture'.

The press itself has become 'Cancer Culture'

[irv]

People are nice enough to leave your silly thread alone you should do the same.

Do you support those criminals like you support PSA? Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand and see PSA is part of the problem and people like you who keep submitting to them are also part of the problem.

I wonder how many would be happy to see people supporting/buying from drug dealers in their neighborhood?
With that comes gun crime, B&E's, robberies and a whole host of other issues that just keeps snowballing over and over again.

It might not be the proper analogy, but one should get the idea, I would think? :rolleyes:

[Fuddjcal]

Not to mention doing bulk submissions to PSA.

right, blithering morons who know about the billion $$$ scam but support it because they obviously lack education. It's absurd and laughable how people can turn a blind eye to an obvious scam. They can't stop popping. it's way too exciting to pop, I guess and spend there $$$ on idiotic things.

They will be eating cat food during retirement is my guess because they wasted their entire life without a backbone and floated aimlessly through life like a spineless amoeba.

Enjoy looking at your fake, made for slab cards, eating your cat food...

[Fuddjcal]

I wonder how many would be happy to see people supporting/buying from drug dealers in their neighborhood?
With that comes gun crime, B&E's, robberies and a whole host of other issues that just keeps snowballing over and over again.

It might not be the proper analogy, but one should get the idea, I would think? :rolleyes:

No, it's actually very good analogy...

[Fuddjcal]

I doubt 5% of net54 members know how deep it runs. I sure don't.

but you are a pretty active collector like myself...you can imagine how deep, right? It runs as deep as you can imagine.

All I know is that in 1980, cards from 1906 1933, 1954 1955 etc were not in pristine condition...Almost EVER. Now you see made for slab mockeries all over the place. IT runs deep my friend.... and for a LONG TIME. Cards spinning in and out of those slabs being doctored along the way...ALL OF THEM PERIOD

[Johnny630]

right, blithering morons who know about the billion $$$ scam but support it because they obviously lack education. It's absurd and laughable how people can turn a blind eye to an obvious scam. They can't stop popping. it's way too exciting to pop, I guess and spend there $$$ on idiotic things.

They will be eating cat food during retirement is my guess because they wasted their entire life without a backbone and floated aimlessly through life like a spineless amoeba.

Enjoy looking at your fake, made for slab cards, eating your cat food...

Cat Food ! I love your passion And Guess what others might be in denial, you sure as hell are not! You know how long and deep this goes back. I’d venture to say 30-50% of all early Tobacco cards in PSA holders have been worked on/altered.

[bobbyw8469]

No, it's actually very good analogy...

It's actually a terrible analogy. You are comparing a card grader to a drug dealer. Think about that for a moment.

[RCMcKenzie]

A better analogy is selling your 1978 Fiat and then going back to the Fiat enthusiasts chat board and telling everyone how crummy Fiat's are. It's just a hobby. I try to enjoy it for what it is.

[bnorth]

A better analogy is selling your 1978 Fiat and then going back to the Fiat enthusiasts chat board and telling everyone how crummy Fiat's are. It's just a hobby. I try to enjoy it for what it is.

I told myself yesterday that I really need to do the bolded part. For a long time I have tried to help people not get scammed. For the most part all it has done is cause me grief. It is super easy to con someone, it is almost impossible to convince that same person they have been conned.:confused:

[Goudey77]

Falling on deaf ears and sounding like a broken record on Net54 to the same crowd.

More importantly let's get this thread back on track. How are the December results panning out?

They had some excellent Cobb's go off in auction last night!

[RCMcKenzie]

Falling on deaf ears and sounding like a broken record on Net54 to the same crowd.

More importantly let's get this thread back on track. How are the December results panning out?

They had some excellent Cobb's go off in auction last night!

The low pop, low grade mello mints sold well. I swung and missed on all 4. I really wanted the Tinker, it's a tough one.

And, Ben, no worries, I'm not a graded card guy. I'll be okay. Thanks, Rob

[t206fanatic]

The low pop, low grade mello mints sold well. I swung and missed on all 4. I really wanted the Tinker, it's a tough one.

And, Ben, no worries, I'm not a graded card guy. I'll be okay. Thanks, Rob

The Tinker sold at LOTG for $2400 (http://loveofthegameauctions.com/1910_e105_mello_mint_joe_tinker__hof____psa_fr_1_5-lot8990.aspx) in 2016, and yesterday for just over $1500-- market was a bit drier for the card this go 'round.

[RCMcKenzie]

I hope they come down some more, so I can collect this set again. I should have kept bidding on the e105 Evers in Heritage. the winner of that one got a nice card.

[x2drich2000]

I hope they come down some more, so I can collect this set again. I should have kept bidding on the e105 Evers in Heritage. the winner of that one got a nice card.

and at a fabulous price. Too many auctions going at once stopped me from going after it.

[irv]

It's actually a terrible analogy. You are comparing a card grader to a drug dealer. Think about that for a moment.

Like the drug dealer, if you keep supporting them then they won't change, but will in fact, bring more harm to the neighborhood/hobby like I already mentioned.

Think about that for a moment.

[perezfan]

I like the analogy. Aren’t baseball card collectors basically addicts as well?

Both the Drug Dealer and TPG are benefitting from illegal sh*t, and will continue to do so until people stop paying them.

The only significant difference is that the local drug dealer makes small potatoes, when compared to his counterparts in Newport Beach.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I like the analogy. Aren’t baseball card collectors basically addicts as well?

Both the Drug Dealer and TPG are benefitting from illegal sh*t, and will continue to do so until people stop paying them.

The only significant difference is that the local drug dealer makes small potatoes, when compared to his counterparts in Newport Beach.

There is no equivalence here. Are you seriously equating the damage drugs do to people with altered baseball cards? Come on Mark.

[perezfan]

There is no equivalence here. Are you seriously equating the damage drugs do to people with altered baseball cards? Come on Mark.

Ok... it was a “tongue in cheek” comment. Of course the drug dealer is more criminal and harmful to society. Goes without saying...

But there is a little similarity there, with regard to the addiction thing. I fully admit to being an “addict” and a slave to this stuff. And have spent money in unhealthy ways- when it could’ve gone towards bills or charity or something more meaningful to basic life needs.

So I do think that TPG and Drug Dealer both benefit from addictive human tendencies.

Can we at least agree on that? :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fair.

[RCMcKenzie]

and at a fabulous price. Too many auctions going at once stopped me from going after it.
Yeah, I was the under-bidder, go get 'em next time, I guess. I kept saving for the next auction. At least I have a hobby bankroll left for the next auctions.

[irv]

There is no equivalence here. Are you seriously equating the damage drugs do to people with altered baseball cards? Come on Mark.

You're missing the point entirely. I am talking about supporting an undesirable, whether that person is a drug dealer, a crooked accountant, a crooked lawyer, a crooked car salesman, a crooked business, whoever. Why would one use these known entities that exploit this type of behavior then continue to do so?

[Johnny630]

You're missing the point entirely. I am talking about supporting an undesirable, whether that person is a drug dealer, a crooked accountant, a crooked lawyer, a crooked car salesman, a crooked business, whoever. Why would one use these known entities that exploit this type of behavior then continue to do so?

Sadly because it’s not the good of the hobby to many it’s about the good of their wallet bottom line.

It’s a shame.....it is what it is.....has always been this way. It’s corrupt but it’s just baseball cards, we are just malcontents on a message board. It’s better for me to remember the fun this hobby brings.

I’m going to just try and find some joy left from it. Life is to short to be bitter and angry.....the heck with it.

[maddux311]

With all of the talk on the E98 Cobb PSA 9s, I found it interesting to see one on Rally Rd with a 39k valuation.

[calvindog]

With all of the talk on the E98 Cobb PSA 9s, I found it interesting to see one on Rally Rd with a 39k valuation.

That’s very interesting considering it just sold in REA for 19.2K and in Heritage for 19.2K. Like a week ago. Oh and in PWCC for 20.9K in September. Those are the last three auction sales. That’s what I’d call a consensus.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With all of the talk on the E98 Cobb PSA 9s, I found it interesting to see one on Rally Rd with a 39k valuation.

I thought Rally Rd was for sportsCARS??

[Rhotchkiss]

That’s very interesting considering it just sold in REA for 19.2K and in Heritage for 19.2K. Like a week ago. Oh and in PWCC for 20.9K in September. Those are the last three auction sales. That’s what I’d call a consensus.

Does that mean PWCC shilled it up $1700? ;) :p :o

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. For what it’s worth, I have seen prices in the past 3-4 pwcc auctions, on things I collect, more in-line with expectations; although I am still angry, dubious and not bidding yet.

[Fuddjcal]

It's actually a terrible analogy. You are comparing a card grader to a drug dealer. Think about that for a moment.

I still like the analogy. :D A card grader (PSA) is every bit as bad as a drug dealer in this wild west, ripe with fraud scenario. Collectors like yourself are addicted to PSA, their slabs, their pops and all the BS that goes along with it.

If you can't stop in the face of this billion $$$ fraud.... I hate to break it to you, but you are addicted.

[Fuddjcal]

Yeah, I was the under-bidder, go get 'em next time, I guess. I kept saving for the next auction. At least I have a hobby bankroll left for the next auctions.

Me too...I am so excited for the next PWCC fake trimmed auctions...You guys sleigh me :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Fuddjcal]

You're missing the point entirely. I am talking about supporting an undesirable, whether that person is a drug dealer, a crooked accountant, a crooked lawyer, a crooked car salesman, a crooked business, whoever. Why would one use these known entities that exploit this type of behavior then continue to do so?

bing bing bing....Let's all go out and support Ponzi, I mean PSA because we don't believe he/they are a crooked in the face of losing our $$$$$.:D:D

let's all do the right thing and continue to support a fraudulent system where collectors get taken behind the woodshed and have the snot beat out of them like a red headed step child...it's fun to support crooks! PSA rocks, let's POP!!!!!

[phlflyer1]

Not sure where I heard that the highest grade pre was a "6" but shame on me for passing it along unresearched.

Hi Scott,

I don't stop by the board too often or else I would have responded earlier but I had the E98 set below (which I obtained from the original collector with my father back in the mid 1970s) graded at the 2005 National in Chicago.

Before the BSF, it was by far the highest graded set of E98s and has several examples that were graded higher than a 6 by SGC.

https://sgclegacy.com/usersetcomposition.aspx?id=0&usersetid=872

Regards,

Scott

[pokerplyr80]

I thought Rally Rd was for sportsCARS??

I just had to google them. Apparently you can buy a share of various collectibles, not just cars. I think I will pass either way.

[ullmandds]

Pretty crazy prices last night with PWCC. RUTH STRIP...albeit a colorful one sold for crazy money!!!!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-W519-Strip-Card-Babe-Ruth-SGC-3-VG-PWCC-E/402025026983?hash=item5d9a8f15a7:g:GF8AAOSwlLheEO5 d

[iowadoc77]

Pretty crazy prices last night with PWCC. RUTH STRIP...albeit a colorful one sold for crazy money!!!!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-W519-Strip-Card-Babe-Ruth-SGC-3-VG-PWCC-E/402025026983?hash=item5d9a8f15a7:g:GF8AAOSwlLheEO5 d

Crazy money for that card even if it is one of the nicest ones out there

[maddux311]

I would say it is fore speculators rather than collectors. I became aware of them when they made available a T206 Wagner, that way I could say I owned one. ;)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/rally-rd-helps-collectors-take-stock-in-valuable-sports-memorabilia/

I thought Rally Rd was for sportsCARS??

[Rhotchkiss]

I didn’t even follow this auction - looked at the offerings when the auction began and there were very few cards I was even remotely interested in, so I guess I forgot. Time permitting, I may go back and look at the sale prices on a few t206s and see how they compare.

[t206fanatic]

There was a PSA 8 McElveen (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-Pryor-McElveen-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC/402025023828?hash=item5d9a8f0954:g:v1IAAOSwv7leEO2 q) last night that previously sold at HA (https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1909-11-t206-sweet-caporal-350-30-pryor-mcelveen-psa-nm-mt-8-only-one-higher/a/50018-50315.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515) for $2220 in Sept -- went for $1790.

[phikappapsi]

I was watching the E98's; seeing if/when we ever find a bottom from the apparent limitless supply from the BSF. Crazy that a 8.5 Cobb goes for $11K (crazy cheap IMO) but it's apparent the supply side is not done yet, and those that bought BSF cards early on are taking a beating.

That set will end up the most affordable/attainable high grade set of E-Cards - which is kind of fun, since assuming everyone agrees about the provenance/authenticity; at least with those you can feel pretty sure they're unaltered.

[pokerplyr80]

Pretty crazy prices last night with PWCC. RUTH STRIP...albeit a colorful one sold for crazy money!!!!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-W519-Strip-Card-Babe-Ruth-SGC-3-VG-PWCC-E/402025026983?hash=item5d9a8f15a7:g:GF8AAOSwlLheEO5 d

That was a nice looking card. Apparently I under estimated the market on it.

[ullmandds]

That was a nice looking card. Apparently I under estimated the market on it.

That's one way to rationalize the hammer?

[pawpawdiv9]

i was bidding on the 1908 E102 Cobb (sgc10). It was nice and the wrinkles didnt bother me. I forgot that it was ending last night. I thought it was under-priced.