Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[Fuddjcal]

Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

[Yoda]

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

[Johnny630]

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

Agree and also people are not revolting because everyone is making money hand over fist....check out the Facebook boards they don’t care everyone thinks it’s a investment.....they are still spending like crazy

[oldjudge]

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

[Fuddjcal]

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

[Fuddjcal]

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

I mean, I have 100K in 'the game" and I still don't really care to support it. Seriously, why would anyone continue to feed a criminal enterprise?

I always try to stand up for right vs wrong (in my own mind at least:D), I guess it's just in my nature?

[RCMcKenzie]

I like the part of the hobby where people talk about a walk-off homer in 1906 and post a $75 card of the guy. It's just a hobby for me. I like baseball. The grading and prices for 8's 9's and 10's is and has always been kind of silly to me. I don't really see anything new about any of it.

[whitehse]

I mean, I have 100K in 'the game" and I still don't really care to support it. Seriously, why would anyone continue to feed a criminal enterprise?


Great question but not everyone is part of the criminal enterprise. I am old school as I have been collecting for the better part of 45 years and have continued my old school ways of collecting. I don't dabble in any of that high end stuff and collect what I like but most importantly, I use my experience and expertise to know if a card I just bought is how a card of that age should look, feel and smell. I have always used the rule that if a card looks too good to be true it likely is.

I go to local shows or buy from people who have shown themselves to be selling quality, unadulterated material but most of all, I do not need a third party to tell me how good a card is as I already know it because of experience. I think we can all stay in the hobby and stop feeding the criminal enterprise if one doesn't let their ego get in the way. Stop needing the highest quality card and paying stupid prices for the right to own a Wally Moon 1959 Topps PSA 9. Ungraded that cards goes for a few bucks so be happy with that. As others have said I blame the registry for fueling the stratospheric prices of even the most common, highly graded cards and the egos of the people who need to be at or near the top.

If we go back to old school happiness I feel one will be happy with what you collect. Is this a simplistic view on the current hobby? Sure it is but then again...is it really?

[frankbmd]

Thumbs upChuck.

I have only purchased a couple of cards this year, one from Barry.

Jeez, I hope he’s not part of a racketeering enterprise.:D

[barrysloate]

Thumbs upChuck.

I have only purchased a couple of cards this year, one from Barry.

Jeez, I hope he’s not part of a racketeering enterprise.:D

Well I sold a total of about four cards this year, so it wouldn't be very much of a racket.

I probably fall somewhere between Chuck's dystopian view of a hobby gone to hell, and Jay's love of baseball history and the early artifacts of the game. Yes, this scandal really gave the hobby a wallop and I don't blame anybody who decides to throw in the towel. But I still think it's possible for each of us to find a way to enjoy collecting.

Unfortunately, the way the hobby evolved was it became way too much about making a lot of money. And the TPG's entered the game with the promise of cleaning things up, but I think all they've really done is pour more gasoline on the fire. They became extremely powerful and in order to make a lot of money, you had to go through them. Maybe it would have been better if the hobby focused more on our love for baseball cards, and not on the minutiae of how square a corner should be. I know so many people feel the hobby is still better with the advent of third party grading, but I am going to respectfully disagree. I think they have done more harm than good.

But if one can focus on the great history of the game, and find something to collect that isn't so dependent on somebody else's opinion, I think there is still a way to enjoy this hobby.

[oldjudge]

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

I personally don't see the reason to do that, but I respect your decision to do so.

[maniac_73]

I collect because its something fun to do with my son and teaches him about baseball history. I learned in the 90's when the junk wax bubble went bust that this hobby is not an investment..at least for me..Im still waiting for my Kevin Maas rookie to pay for my retirement lol

[ullmandds]

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

I fall into this category as well...been collecting cards 43+ years...only vintage almost 30...i've never been too condition sensitive. I really like the collection I have put together...and I'm not rushing to get out...BUT...I've certainly changed my purchasing habits as of lately...and while I also find the grim reality of this hobby to be repugnant and shocking...I'm happy still collecting albeit on a different level.

I agree that many with lots of $$$$ tied up in high grade "commodities" and/or big buck cards...just keep chugging along hoping that things will continue as they have so far. And many seem not to really care if their cards are altered as long as they are not fake.

So has there been such growth in the hobby the last 5 or so years to make green cobbies in vg worth 10-15K? Will this be a 50K card in our lifetimes?

Who knows?

I just hope people are punished and changes do occur to improve the hobby...and I think the hobby is moving towards values based on the eye appeal of a card and not the technical grade...with alterations not mattering to more and more "collectors/investors" as time goes by.

[perezfan]

Well I sold a total of about four cards this year, so it wouldn't be very much of a racket.

I probably fall somewhere between Chuck's dystopian view of a hobby gone to hell, and Jay's love of baseball history and the early artifacts of the game. Yes, this scandal really gave the hobby a wallop and I don't blame anybody who decides to throw in the towel. But I still think it's possible for each of us to find a way to enjoy collecting

Unfortunately, the way the hobby evolved was it became way too much about making a lot of money. And the TPG's entered the game with the promise of cleaning things up, but I think all they've really done is pour more gasoline on the fire. They became extremely powerful and in order to make a lot of money, you had to go through them. Maybe it would have been better if the hobby focused more on our love for baseball cards, and not on the minutiae of how square a corner should be. I know so many people feel the hobby is still better with the advent of third party grading, but I am going to respectfully disagree. I think they have done more harm than good.

But if one can focus on the great history of the game, and find something to collect that isn't so dependent on somebody else's opinion, I think there is still a way to enjoy his hobby.

I thought this was very well said, and it perfectly represents my feelings as well...

I feel TPGs have done great harm for the reasons Barry stated. My concern is that as the hobby evolves, the emphasis will become more and more about making money. And that will only motivate the card doctors / shady dealers to an even greater extent. That's why I'm hoping that Law Enforceent cracks down hard, and forces big changes upon PSA and the TPGs.

Something positive has to result from all of this!

[egbeachley]

In all seriousness, I think we have reached the tipping point.

If you want unaltered cards in your collection you are safer buying them raw rather than graded.

[drcy]

Clearly, collectors are going to have to rely on more that the professional graders to judge if a card is altered. And one learns how to identify alterations by owning and examing raw cards.

And there will be a point that a particular collector can do a better job than the professional grader at identifying if his cards are altered, if only because they spend more time examining the card. In fact, considering the time professional graders take to examine a card, there's no reason to believe that there will soon be many collectors better able to identify alterations than grader-- but this won't include collectors who only buy graded cards and keep them in the holders..

[brianp-beme]

For some reason for four decades I have not felt involved in the 'I view cards as an investment' got to get it graded and boost my registry faction. Therefore I decline to do anything but stand on the sidelines as the monster that was created from greed comes crashing down.

Brian

[Johnny630]

For some reason for four decades I have not felt involved in the 'I view cards as an investment' got to get it graded and boost my registry faction. Therefore I decline to do anything but stand on the sidelines as the monster that was created from greed comes crashing down.

Brian

Well Said Brian

People still do not think it’s gonna crash....they think everything is fine....hobby is flouring will only go up......

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[bnorth]

Well Said Brian

People still do not think it’s gonna crash....they think everything is fine....hobby is flouring will only go up......

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I wish it would crash but I still believe it is business as usual. Just look at all the collectors lining up to send cards to PSA. They don't give a fook about the hobby.

[Johnny630]

I wish it would crash but I still believe it is business as usual. Just look at all the collectors lining up to send cards to PSA. They don't give a fook about the hobby.

No they don’t and it will crash...get your shopping list ready for a year or two down the road :-) that’s the one major positive in all of this....Much better levels to come for buying cards

[Rhotchkiss]

The card market will crash, and so eventually will the economy (and the latter may have more effect on the former than this scandal). And like the economy, the value of cards will eventually rebound. Cards have gone up in value consistently over many decades- there have been peaks and valleys, but each peak is higher than the last (like stocks, real estate, etc). If you buy the right cards and you are long on those cards, I think “collectors” will do just fine. The question is: what are the “right cards”? That’s a subject for another thread.

[Ronnie73]

I am also an old school collector that doesn't need a company to tell me how to feel about a card. What I think the problem is, is too many people got caught up in needing the best card out there. I get it. It's no different than wanting the biggest house on your street. Registries have probably done more harm than good. It's so temping. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd look at a 1960+ set and make a plan to build the best set and then throw the idea in the trash because I'd come to my senses knowing it's a bad investment. Obviously many haven't been that lucky to do the same.

As far as telling collectors to boycott the hobby, sorry but that will never happen. The people in the hobby that lost money are the ones that are the most upset. Many of us didn't get caught up in the grading game and we are doing just fine.

Lastly, here's a few tips for everyone. Learn the difference between true rarity and manufactured rarity. Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity. Learn that when something says limited edition or collectors edition, it's not a good investment. Learn to enjoy the hobby for what it once was.

[LuckyLarry]

One thing from the provided link. A 1959 Topps baseball card #58 Eddie Miksis sold for $3,605. Thats a ten cent card.
Larry

[ALBB]

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

[Ronnie73]

One thing from the provided link. A 1959 Topps baseball card #58 Eddie Miksis sold for $3,605. Thats a ten cent card.
Larry

Exactly!! That's the main reason I posted this collecting tip. "Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity". It's just not a rare card. It's hard to say who's at fault the most. The graders, the trimmers, or the people buying and selling these cards and driving the prices up. Some may be upset with me for saying the buyers and sellers but here's a perfect example.. There are certain cards I hoard and I've single handedly driven up the price on them. When another card comes up for sale, I have to pay much more for it. It's totally my fault. But it's my choice and I'm not doing it to make money.

[Mark17]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750


Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice. :)

[Ronnie73]

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

Hopefully that doesn't happen but it wouldn't hurt me much either. Too many have turned cards into shares of stock. PWCC didn't help when they started their Investment Market Indices seen here https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/market-indices.

[timzcardz]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750


Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

Believe me, I get not supporting something that I am opposed to.

Putting on the brakes for a while? Is one to assume that there is currently nothing good or honest in the hobby? That there is no way to get a fair and honest deal done?

I'm trying to understand this.

Likewise, with the opioid situation that has been created/advanced by SOME doctors, and SOME of big pharma, and SOME pharmacies, should I also not go to my doctor or my local pharmacy for my blood pressure meds or when I'm sick, until the issue is resolved?

[Johnny630]

The card market will crash, and so eventually will the economy (and the latter may have more effect on the former than this scandal). And like the economy, the value of cards will eventually rebound. Cards have gone up in value consistently over many decades- there have been peaks and valleys, but each peak is higher than the last (like stocks, real estate, etc). If you buy the right cards and you are long on those cards, I think “collectors” will do just fine. The question is: what are the “right cards”? That’s a subject for another thread.

Exactly :-) well put !

[tedzan]

I am also an old school collector that doesn't need a company to tell me how to feel about a card. What I think the problem is, is too many people got caught up in needing the best card out there. I get it. It's no different than wanting the biggest house on your street. Registries have probably done more harm than good. It's so temping. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd look at a 1960+ set and make a plan to build the best set and then throw the idea in the trash because I'd come to my senses knowing it's a bad investment. Obviously many haven't been that lucky to do the same.

As far as telling collectors to boycott the hobby, sorry but that will never happen. The people in the hobby that lost money are the ones that are the most upset. Many of us didn't get caught up in the grading game and we are doing just fine.

Lastly, here's a few tips for everyone. Learn the difference between true rarity and manufactured rarity. Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity. Learn that when something says limited edition or collectors edition, it's not a good investment. Learn to enjoy the hobby for what it once was.


Well stated, Ron..... spoken by a true BB card collector.

As many of you that know me, know I have many completed sets (and sub-sets) of Sportscards from 1887 to 1987.
Less than 1 % of the cards in my entire collection are "Graded". I love the history of BB, and how it is reflected by many of the BB cards
which I collect. Researching how certain BB cards were printed, and how and where they were distributed. Which ones are rare, and who
do I contact to acquire the rare ones. This is how I derive enjoyment from this hobby.....no stress, no mess. And, most of all, all the fine
people I have met in the process, which have become life-long friends.

I seldom spend some "Big $$$$" on Graded cards. And in recent years I will if it's a card I need to complete (or upgrade) a set. Here are
4 examples of such purchases. Note that these cards are graded "A"….which stands for AWESOME and AFFORDABLE


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DemmittStLouisSGC.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PolarBearMcGlynn25x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/OHaraStLouisSGCA.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Exhibitman]

OP is a rather broad brush. You hate the hobby and think everyone is a crook? Then quit. Life's too short. Buh-Bye.

The scandal doesn't affect my collection at all since nearly every alteration-worthy card I have was self-submitted over the years. My focus now is on cards of my childhood (the seventies) and I had a blast at the National this year assiduously avoiding graded cards. I hope to continue that.

The hobby is what you make of it. I collected when people were happy to get rid of old cards, I will collect long after the TPG scandals are old news (and hopefully the culprits are in jail).

[mouschi]

Don't let the crooks in this hobby ruin collecting for you. That would be like swearing off of cars because of the carjackers.

Our hobby is not just going to survive this; it is going to continue to thrive. Will there be a market correction in some facets of it? Surely, but our hobby is nearly 150 years old. It has survived so, so much.

People view sports cards as collectibles, history, crown jewels, investments, art, nostalgia and a way to get closer to the game. There is way too much to love about our hobby than to just walk away, though I suspect some will. But I'm a believer that more will come to it than walk away.

[samosa4u]

A few of you mention the market crashing - please explain specifically what you mean by this. Are you saying that one day I'm going to wake up and see the card prices come crashing down, like what happened to Bear Stearns and the other investment banks over ten years ago? If so, then here is what I have to say to you: DREAM ON!

Look, over the past twenty years, the US economy has gone through all kinds of crazy problems. Do you think when these things were happening, mid-grade 51' Bowman Mantles were going for $500 or even $1,000? See what I mean? Sure, there are cooling down periods, but then prices end up rebounding and reaching new highs.

[commishbob]

OP is a rather broad brush. You hate the hobby and think everyone is a crook? Then quit. Life's too short. Buh-Bye.

The scandal doesn't affect my collection at all since nearly every alteration-worthy card I have was self-submitted over the years. My focus now is on cards of my childhood (the seventies) and I had a blast at the National this year assiduously avoiding graded cards. I hope to continue that.

The hobby is what you make of it. I collected when people were happy to get rid of old cards, I will collect long after the TPG scandals are old news (and hopefully the culprits are in jail).

This.

Look, I hate to see folks getting scammed and unethical jerks making a killing with this. But I fail to see how this should cause me to give up on a hobby I've enjoyed for 60 years. My interests are in building sets I enjoy using raw and lower-to-mid condition cards.

If anyone is waiting for a mass exodus from the hobby by hordes of collectors due to the hits taken by high-end investors they are going to be disappointed.

[topcat61]

While I've taken a step back and look at the things I'm adding to my collection (as they say, work smarter, not harder), I still love the hobby, meeting people and realize probably more than ever that the hobby and Baseball has a lot to teach us. I most likely wont be making any big purchases but this is and should be a reminder, a wake up call as to why I got into the hobby to begin with. Was never about the money, but as a tool for my own education and really helped me keep away from drinking and drug use. And that is the real reason why I continue to collect.

[Fuddjcal]

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice. :)

I see your points and respect your opinions. I just think it's funny how people won't give it a rest and stop supporting a criminal enterprise.

Never been accused of being a control freak. I don't control anybody except myself so that part I think you are wrong. I'm many other things but that misses the mark. I'd really just like all collectors to stand up to the fraud. Is that too much to ask?

[Fuddjcal]

A few of you mention the market crashing - please explain specifically what you mean by this. Are you saying that one day I'm going to wake up and see the card prices come crashing down, like what happened to Bear Stearns and the other investment banks over ten years ago? If so, then here is what I have to say to you: DREAM ON!

Look, over the past twenty years, the US economy has gone through all kinds of crazy problems. Do you think when these things were happening, mid-grade 51' Bowman Mantles were going for $500 or even $1,000? See what I mean? Sure, there are cooling down periods, but then prices end up rebounding and reaching new highs.

agreed, and this isn't what I want either.

I just want collectors to stand up to this industry. That includes ALL the selling platforms and TPG's that don't give a S**t and are clearly crooked. You do that by not supporting their product or service and hurt them where it counts. In their pocketbook.

[timn1]

Beautifully put, Mark-

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice. :)

[SMPEP]

I'm in the cards values will decline substantially over time camp (look at antiques, stamps and coins) - but not because of the current scandal (although that won't help).

It all about demographics.

There are not as people going to baseball games. There are not as many watching baseball on TV. And bluntly, the game is not as important to society as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. And with all the specialist pitcher changes and all the take pitches to run up pitch counts stuff - I find the game WAY less interesting than when I was a kid.

Today it's NBA and NFL (with a HUGE life from Fantasy Football). They're fast. they're exciting.

So long term - those cards will go up in value and baseball will fall (especially for those insanely overpriced Mickey Mantle cards).

The current buyers are just too old to sustain the market that much longer (a decade at most), and the younger buyers are more into modern stuff AND they collect less stuff than the prior generation.

The only reason not to sell my cards now - I don't have enough money invested in them to matter! When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

[Exhibitman]

When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

Ditto. And this thread needs another card image

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1957%20Williams_%20Ted%20blank%20back.jpg

"In 1955, there were 77,263,127 male American human beings. And every one of them in his heart of hearts would have given two arms, a leg and his collection of Davy Crockett iron-ons to be Teddy Ballgame."

[drcy]

As I've said before I anticipate pricing changes. I think some will leave the hobby or not sink as much money in, certainly not into "high grade" graded cards. Many people who otherwise would have won't enter the hobby, or enter with the same amount of "investment" money, when the learn the hobby is rife with corruption, wrong grades, illegal activity and entities that actually enable such behavior. Certainly, skepticism of grades and graders will rise tremendously. Further, even if conservation and alterations are more hobby accepted and normalized, I find it hard to believe that someone will still pay the same exponentially more for a 10 over a 9, or a 9 over an 8, because one altered card was altered microscopically better than another altered card. Even if you love altered cards, you're not going to pay an extra $100,000 for a card because a wrinkled was spooned better-- especially when, for the same effect, you could get the lower grade card and have it altered to your liking and higher grade for $200.

No question the normalization of alterations, and even acceptance of it, will reduce the grade rarity of many cards (as more and more cards will become "better and better" condition), which will lower prices there. That idea is borrowed from Barry Sloate and his keen insight.

The new knowledge about the capabilities of graders, and the prevalence of altered cards, will change how cards are considered and thus priced.

But there will also be a cottage industry for cards that have not been altered, and more knowledge about which cards are altered and which are not WILL rise substantially with time.

[mechanicalman]

Good idea, Adam. Let's show some cardboard we LOVE.

Some recent pick-ups on the way. Purchased from a reputable establishment (REA) for prices that reflect strong demand in the marketplace.

I'm well aware of what's going on and have changed my habits accordingly, but I will continue to be an active and positive participant in the hobby. Sorry, Chuck.

[Exhibitman]

Back at ya, with your avatar:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Gehringer_1.jpg

Got the card when I was a kid; got the card signed at one of Gehringer's last autograph sessions.

[rats60]

I'm in the cards values will decline substantially over time camp (look at antiques, stamps and coins) - but not because of the current scandal (although that won't help).

It all about demographics.

There are not as people going to baseball games. There are not as many watching baseball on TV. And bluntly, the game is not as important to society as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. And with all the specialist pitcher changes and all the take pitches to run up pitch counts stuff - I find the game WAY less interesting than when I was a kid.

Today it's NBA and NFL (with a HUGE life from Fantasy Football). They're fast. they're exciting.

So long term - those cards will go up in value and baseball will fall (especially for those insanely overpriced Mickey Mantle cards).

The current buyers are just too old to sustain the market that much longer (a decade at most), and the younger buyers are more into modern stuff AND they collect less stuff than the prior generation.

The only reason not to sell my cards now - I don't have enough money invested in them to matter! When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

Disagree. Young buyers start with modern because it has a low entry point. If you buy the right card at the right time, you can make a lot of money. Those collectors aspire to buy early Topps & Bowman cards of Mantle, Clemente and Jackie or Prewar cards of Ruth, Wagner and Cobb when they can afford them. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "made money off of a prospect, want to buy vintage."

Popularity of the sport is irrelevant to collectibility. The NFL is the most popular league, but its cards lag behind MLB and NBA. World Series TV ratings were about double what they were for the NBA Finals. So, there is still enormous interest still in the sport. It is also the first sport that most kids play with Little League. I don't see baseball cards going anywhere.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48572445516_dba7a499ae_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h1btPb)

I'll add a card too. I'm still buying the right high end cards. I don't think this one is trimmed or altered. I have always taken care in what I buy or who I deal with. This scandal has just caused me to slow down, but I will wait for the FBI to do a thorough investigation and all the facts to come out before I jump to conclusions.

[mechanicalman]

Back at ya, with your avatar:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Gehringer_1.jpg

Got the card when I was a kid; got the card signed at one of Gehringer's last autograph sessions.

One of the prettiest signatures in baseball. I love that card and the story behind it. Just another reason to love collecting.

[bmcnutt]

As I've said before, I'd like to do away with giving the cards a numerical grade and just see a grade such as "Authentic". This would be a plus for collectors IMO. It would cut down on the overpriced cards. I know PSA & others offer this option, but as long as the numerical grade is around, especially for vintage cards, then the fraud, such as "trimming" for a higher grade, will continue to thrive. What would be the point in trimming a card if it wasn't going to get a numerical grade?

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is a better chance of the Earth colliding with Mars than the TPGs ditching numerical grades.

[drcy]

I think it should be obvious that, however the money comes and goes and however alterations are accepted or not, "highest grade" (quotes intentional) will become more plentiful and go down in value. Like McDonald's hamburgers, they're being made to order, plus most people will have caught on that the conditions are often if not mostly not real. Will they be collected and valued? Sure. Will they be valued at the same rate compared to when they were rarer and people thought unaltered? Of course not.

Peter Spaeth correctly pointed that some formerly very rarely centered cards have become readily available because people out there are "centering" them for the customers.

PSA Registry investor types are in a conundrum. They want to protect the status quo, but also know that the status quo means their precious grade rarities will become less and less (and less) rare and will devaluate that way . . . Adding to the quandary is they also fret about how many of their registry cards are altered, and how many will be outed as altered as time goes by.

PSA also is in a quandary. On one hand they want to be able to better identify altered cards, but on the other hands they don't know what to do with that ability vis a vis all those millions of dollars worth of cards in holders that are mislabelled.

Who knows, maybe it will end up being the wealthy registry big wigs who end up suing PSA.

[steve B]

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

[Mark17]

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."

[Leon]

+1 It is their gravy train. Unfortunately it seems they often really suck at their job.

There is a better chance of the Earth colliding with Mars than the TPGs ditching numerical grades.

[steve B]

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker... :D

[buymycards]

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker... :D

SCD had an 11 point grading scale a few years ago.

[drcy]

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

My funny story is I had a tour of the Beckett facilities in Dallas, and sitting on the floor in a hallway was a box of unused holders. I joked to the grading director that I could steal those and make my own graded cards. He laughed and said "You wouldn't want those. Those are BCCC holders." He knew.

[Exhibitman]

When TPGs started I (and many others I spoke with) thought it was stupid. Dennis Purdy even wrote his prescient "Smoke Detectors Without Batteries" column in VCBC #7 in 1996. Just like opioids, however, the TPGs manufactured demand: a few companies figured out that they could make a market. Brilliant marketing with terrible blow-back.

IMO the main driver of the corruption is the PSA registry. It begins and ends with the demand created by pitting egotistical collectors against each other for the 'best' collections. That plus the TPGs' abject failure at analyzing cards (and perhaps some outright corruption) was an open door to the crap we are dealing with today.

The only solution is to stop playing their game. Put the TPGs out of business by refusing to use their services and deleting all registry sets and eventually the 'easy' money will be taken out of the hobby. Then the slimy things will slither back into the sewer and go bother the coin collectors.

Not gonna happen unfortunately: too much invested in the status quo.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/dante%20silvio.jpg

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

[perezfan]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Yep... spot on.

Law enforcement must come down hard on the Doctors, Shady Dealers and TPGs, if any type of meaningful change is to result from this.

Probably foolish, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

[Mrc32]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.


Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

[Rhotchkiss]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

[Johnny630]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Well said !! :-)

I see one of the major problems is Zero Repercussion or Fear of Prosecution to the Card Doctors. I’ve overheard a person at show saying once’s the cards are graded they’re graded I’m off the hook.

Will PSA or auction houses turn in these people?? Doubtful, why because they’re possibly in cahoots. Unless there is emails or text messages that can pin down specifics it’s going to be very difficult.

When the scandal hit everyone was balls to the wall to put doctors in jail now crickets.

I don’t know...what is everyone else’s thoughts about this.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also, the acronym TPG should now be TPH (third party holdering) as their service only offers a means of storage.

[ullmandds]

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

Sorry but the fools paying incredulous sums of money for psa 10 commons are part of the problem as well!

[drcy]

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750)

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750)

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

Or..... or......

[frankbmd]

Or..... or..... Orlando.

:eek:

[drcy]

A number of regular posters at the PSA forum have posted there that they are not buying graded cards, at least until they see how this turns out.

It is the PSA forum and posters know they can only go far, but a good number of people have expressed great disappointment and questions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14982083&postcount=5489

[drcy]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.


Actually, I got some new shoes yesterday. Though one thing not new under the sun is that I'm looking sharp. Though I'd phrase it as "Goes without saying."

[Elderwood17]

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

I am a low grade collector as well, but still would have a bit of angst if it totally crashed. I do feel though that the premium being paid for the 9s and 10s has been a bit crazy, but if that pops it may not impact the mid or low grade cards that much.

[nolemmings]

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14982083&postcount=5489

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Blowout post and I can personally attest that many, if not all of those PSA-related machinations are true in relation to suppressing the alteration problems. I too exited the graded-card hobby in 2008 and when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards in 2009, Orlando banned me from the CU message boards and deleted my retired sets from the Set Registry.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

No doubt Todd. Aggressive damage control seems to be paramount at PSA.

[Rickyy]

I think more will come out in regards to the trimmed cards...its endless.. we probably haven't even touched the surface esp when it comes to new shiny ones... which I believe Jeff L had eluded to.

Ricky Y

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Blowout post and I can personally attest that many, if not all of those PSA-related machinations are true in relation to suppressing the alteration problems. I too exited the graded-card hobby in 2008 and when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards in 2009, Orlando banned me from the CU message boards and deleted my retired sets from the Set Registry.

Yeah Dan I remember. Same as he was, same as he is and will be.

[jchcollins]

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[trdcrdkid]

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards?

They wrote letters to hobby publications like Sports Collectors Digest, which was the combined equivalent of eBay, Net54, and Blowout when I got seriously back into the hobby in 1991. Plus local card shops and local card shows, where most of the buying and selling that's now done online took place.

Here's one of my hobby history posts that details a big controversy over the commercialization of the hobby that took place in 1968-69. A lot of these discussions have been going on for a long time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234476

Also, see these articles in SCD about fake autographs and the problems with PSA -- from 1996, 23 years ago. They were raising many of the same issues we're dealing with today.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271015


And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded.

See this post about the first wave of counterfeit cards to appear in the hobby, in 1972-74. Before that there wasn't enough money in the hobby to justify anybody going to the trouble to fake stuff. But the hobby's steady growth in the 1970s (corresponding with the first baby boomers getting enough disposable income to try to recreate their childhoods) brought in a lot more money, and with it the crooks.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262868

[GasHouseGang]

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

[drcy]

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

[JohnP0621]

First let me start by saying that I have also been a long time collector and I am not happy with the current situation and fraud . I mostly collect Prewar T205-T206, Goudey etc and some 50s-60s stars Mantle , Mays , Aaron etc
95 % of my cards are graded Psa - SGC grades 3-5 . I like my cards graded and protected .I have approx 400-450 cards and My guess wound be that none of them are altered or trimmed. A lot of them I bought raw and sent in myself for grading and the rest I bought from reputable dealers at shows , EBay and right here on Net 54. I enjoy this hobby and am not going to let a few dishonest A-Holes ruin my enjoyment. I do not have high end cards or need the best example or highest graded. The OP and many others are suggesting that the whole Hobby is a criminal enterprise and I totally disagree . There are many , many more descent hobbyists and sellers then crooks. You just need to know who your dealing with.

John P

[Jim65]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

[tschock]

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

David,

I still use "pack fresh" (if they are) when describing cards, especially lots. I try to provide 'guidance' as to the centering of the cards, but I don't always get into specific OCs (80/20, 70/30, etc). I usually scan a 'sampling' of the cards as an indication. I would also note if there were gum stains on x number or y% of the cards. Again, mostly for lots. Technically, they are not "mint", but I rarely go higher than NM when trying to specify a grade anyway.

Individual cards get the 'high scan treatment' with a statement of grade without considering centering and noting any defects as needed. Most can tell how well the card is or isn't centered and judge on their own what the means to them.

I get a lot of "exactly as" or "better than" described, which may mean I leave money on the table, but oh well. My piece of mind and not having to worry about nit picking is worth the cost. :)

[steve B]

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

I met him briefly once, and helped work a table across from him at a show (for the show promoter)

That idea of the preservation of the card being the important part is probably the only thing we ever had in common. He did know his cards though...

[JohnP0621]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

[steve B]

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

[Johnny630]

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

Exactly Well Said +1

I believe in the not to distant future that PSA’s Slabs/Opinions will be worth far less to the market then they are currently.

I’ve said this for years, Registry and Pop Report are two of their biggest money making marketing tools. Both are inaccurate and total BS

[Ronnie73]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

100% Facts!! I'd rather buy a 1/1 that's 100+ years old for $25. I wouldn't mind being #1 on the Registry when it comes to rarity.

[Mark17]

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

[JohnP0621]

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

[Jim65]

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

[Mark17]

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

[JohnP0621]

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

I agree. You have no idea who these people/collectors are and yet you think that you can call out names . Some guys just have Much More money than others. Whats your beef ? Some people I know spend $200.00 for a bottle of wine while I spend $15.00 . It doesn't make me jealous nor do I care. Yet you think they are D-Bags Etc. I Guess Im just not getting your point as to your anger towards other people that you don't even know or how they spend THEIR MONEY.

John P

[Peter_Spaeth]

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

[Johnny630]

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Nothing in that earnings call makes me want to invest in his company.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Its been another several months....tons of different card owners out there that bought altered cards...yet zero lawsuits that i am aware of..

obviously people are satisfied with the card, the refund or the loss they are taking that its tough to put this in Category 5 scandal territory at least at this point.

[perezfan]

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else. :confused:

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever. :mad:

[steve B]

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

[PiratesWS1979]

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else. :confused:

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever. :mad:


:mad::mad::mad: THAT WAS MY YAZ!!

40
1
26809377
EXCELLENT-MINT 6
1965 Topps 170 Hank Aaron
Card
41
1
26809378
EXCELLENT 5
1965 Topps 207 Pete Rose
Card
42
1
26809379
NEAR MINT+ 7.5
1965 Topps 385 Carl Yastrzemski
Card
43
1
26809380
VERY GOOD+ 3.5
1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle
Card
43
2
26809381
VERY GOOD+ 3.5
1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

[perezfan]

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

And a small percentage of his $7,800 profit. :rolleyes:

[PiratesWS1979]

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

It was sent to Probstein so he possibly keeps records.

[drcy]

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else. :confused:

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever. :mad:

My guess is that PSA grades cards so fast that they cannot do a proper examination. They may well have the capabilities to identify the alterations, and many alterations are likely identifiable by conventional means, but PSA is about volume and speed.

Obligatory Seinfeld or Simpsons video clip: Homer and Barney's tour of the Duff Beer beer is made, focus on the assembly line quality control starting at 1:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqfLOJGS_7o)

[Johnny630]

Move Along This is A Non Issue Guys

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

Joseph J. Orlando, Collectors Universe, Inc. - CEO, President & Director [11]

and this

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

and this

Joseph J. Wallace, Collectors Universe, Inc. - CFO & SVP [43]

So I think this whole trimming issue that we spent a lot of time talking about today is really something that we don't consider material to our business. And we'd probably just like to leave it at that in terms of any additional questions on the subject.

Another Big Up Yours to Collectors :-( very sad state of affairs......the fun is being sucked out of this hobby

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[barrysloate]

My guess is that PSA grades cards so fast that they cannot do a proper examination. They may well have the capabilities to identify the alterations, and many alterations are likely identifiable by conventional means, but PSA is about volume and speed.

Obligatory Seinfeld or Simpsons video clip: Homer and Barney's tour of the Duff Beer beer is made, focus on the assembly line quality control starting at 1:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqfLOJGS_7o)

I don't even need to see the video David. Hitler's head is in one of the bottles.

[whitehse]

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.

[Mark17]

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

Agree. That's why I said, you have to consider a specific asset (like a Wagner, or 1952 Mantle, or whatever. Same asset, grade, and TPG)

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.Thanks. And for that matter, I am less than enamored with any TPGer and not just because of recent events. Yes, I do have a few graded cards...but fewer than I previously did. I have collected for at least 30 years (wow that sounds strange to say), and I don't need their "help." I understand some really like cards in TPG holders. To each their own. Everyone is different. Bottom line is that this hobby is a source of fun and escape for me, always has been and always will be. Entities like PSA or whomever else won't ruin it for me.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Fuddjcal]

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Say it ain't so Joe...after further review, the call on the field stands. It is easily a billion dollar fraud. Keep feeding the monster.:D

[Fuddjcal]

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Didn't really change my position. I think everyone should step back and take a deep breathe for about 3 years. It's getting to be re-god damned ridiculous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBHak_S7bE

that people would continue to feed an KNOWN fraud. It's really just a symptom of the human condition that people are so very stupid and trusting.

Where is Bernie Madoff? I'd like to invest in his fine high paying fund.

[Fuddjcal]

I don't even need to see the video David. Hitler's head is in one of the bottles.

And Duff spelled backwards is FUDD

[Johnny630]

Chuck It’s A Shame Very Sad!!

Most do not care about the Cards At All!!!!

It’s all about making money they could care less about any of these Frauds.

Until PSA slabs start bring far less money the crap won’t stop I think it’s only going to get worse.

[steve B]

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?



I think that we're talking about different things.

The above does make sense, except for the demand side.
If there are 5 or 10 in circulation doesn't matter much if there are 100 people that really want one and can afford it. The difference between 5 and 10 may make a few people decide it's too common, but unless that becomes a big difference, the demand still far exceeds supply.

What I'm talking about is where that demand goes as the price increases.
If 100 people can afford a card at a particular grade, and there are only 5 of them, at some point, the people who can afford it a bit less will either stop wanting the card, or will accept that they can only afford the card in a lower grade. When the difference is big enough, someone who was borderline able to afford it in one grade becomes a major force driving price at a lower grade.
There are cards that I could afford when I started back in the late 70's, and back then I could have afforded a fairly nice one.
Enter grading and registries and the hobby expanding (Not necessarily all bad things) And now I would have a difficult time justifying even buying one grade 1 or A. (Most major rookie cards from the 50's, and most prewar HOFers from any set. )
The high prices for the top examples drive up the price of all the others. And in some cases, the price of different cards from the same set. (T206, 52 Topps... Both are fairly common, but sell for more than cards from tougher sets from the same era. )

[Fuddjcal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

[perezfan]

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

[Johnny630]

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

100% agree Mark ! Your last statement was bottom line to the point truth!

Would like to see this Scandal in the IBD or American Greed

[bmcnutt]

The card price in this link is a price example of my distaste for card grading companies. The Beckett Book Value of this card is $6.00. But Dean's Cards is selling it as if it is a PSA 8, and the card is not even graded.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-335-Bill-Mazeroski-Pirates-EX-MT/401701975374?hash=item5d874db54e:m:mwWaS953SOLAz2A A-q7cw3A:sc:USPSFirstClass!38863!US!-1

[al032184]

Dean's Cards has ALWAYS sold cards significantly marked up from any book value, graded or not. He has been selling cards for a couple decades. I've never heard anything shady coming from his business, except that he's stubborn with his prices, which he has the right to be, for better or worse. Hell, if he hasn't been involved in any altering scandals, his mark ups might be worth knowing he doesn't sell altered cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker... :D

Maybe a pastel black...