View Full Version : t206 Lajoie Error Found - Anything Similar Known to Exist?
chuckw
08-23-2019, 12:42 PM
In a recent attic find, a grouping of T206 cards were discovered, including this awesome Lajoie card. Check out the red line and upside down factory number. I am just looking for information from some of the amazing t206 experts on here. I have no concerns regarding the authenticity of the card, as it was in an attic for 80+ years and some cards were nibbled on by squirrels. I appreciate any information that anyone has regarding other cards with the red line or upside down factory numbers (or how this occurred in the 1909-1911 printing era). Thanks in advance for your help!!!
griffon512
08-23-2019, 01:58 PM
Different find than the one of one (or close to it) Mascot Dog Food cards you had?
Aquarian Sports Cards
08-23-2019, 02:03 PM
Looks like an overprint sheet got run through backwards. I've never seen one before, but there's guys who've seen lots more than I have.
tedzan
08-23-2019, 02:35 PM
The overprinted SWEET CAP 150, Factory #649 cards, and certain So. Lge. OLD MILL cards were printed simultaneously.
The printer inadvertently printed the RED overprint line (inverted) on several of the these cards.
So, nothing new here....on rare occasions these printing mistakes are found on certain cards.
I have a list of these cards; however, I have to run out now. Catch you later, if you are interested.
Example.....
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg
TED Z
T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.
chuckw
08-23-2019, 02:41 PM
Thanks for the information Ted! The list would be great!
James - yes this was a different find than the Mascot cards (Mantle and Berra) from last year.
griffon512
08-23-2019, 04:17 PM
nice, cool piece!
Popcorn
08-23-2019, 04:32 PM
Lol Idk the upside down ink looks darker to me. A densitometer would be able to tell if it was printed at the same time as the rest of the ink.
MVSNYC
08-23-2019, 07:05 PM
Ted, you’re reply was pretty chill...to me, this is a big find. I only know of the SL Greminger upside down overprint, which Ryan just bought. I’ve never seen another one, sounds like you have?
steve B
08-23-2019, 08:22 PM
Lol Idk the upside down ink looks darker to me. A densitometer would be able to tell if it was printed at the same time as the rest of the ink.
The 150's with that factory 649 had the red bar and factory 649 line printed later to make factory 30 cards ok to issue from factory 649. (The issuing factory had to be on there by federal law. )
An inverted overprint like that is really very interesting.
Very cool and significant if legit. I've never heard of another SC 150/649 with an upside-down OP.
Gradedcardman
08-24-2019, 10:06 AM
I agree with the rest. A large find for sure if legit. Let’s hope it is !
ullmandds
08-24-2019, 11:13 AM
Looks legit and pretty significant to this non t206 collector!!
x2drich2000
08-24-2019, 11:28 AM
Not trying to downplay this card at all, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also another SLer with two overprint stamps on the back? Also the black overprint stamps that showed up a few years ago were they not all confirmed to be fraudulent?
brianp-beme
08-24-2019, 11:30 AM
Nice card. I like to salute the printer of this upside down factory overstripe card...perfect placement between the SWEET and CAPORAL.
Here is another Sweet Caporal goof, this one is MISSING the overstrike. Never drink and operate heavy printing press machinery.
Brian
ullmandds
08-24-2019, 11:36 AM
Not trying to downplay this card at all, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also another SLer with two overprint stamps on the back? Also the black overprint stamps that showed up a few years ago were they not all confirmed to be fraudulent?
I believe those were old mills?
MVSNYC
08-24-2019, 11:45 AM
The black bar (Old Mill) overprints were fake. I believe it was Lew Lipset's encyclopedia, which was printed in black & white, the images of those cards (single overprint SLer, and double overprint SLer), appeared to be black bars (in reality, they were red)...so the person who made fake ones, made the bars black, which fooled some people initially, but the OG collectors knew they were really red.
To my knowledge (Ted jump in), there is only one or two single overprint SLers, and one double overprint(?).
And again, Ted, your reply was rather downplayed...this is a really big discovery, if real, no? I have not seen or heard of any other upside down overprints other than the SLers mentioned above.
Rhotchkiss
08-24-2019, 12:00 PM
Ted, I agree with Michael - would love to hear more about others overprints. Thanks
Ronnie73
08-24-2019, 02:35 PM
Nice card. I like to salute the printer of this upside down factory overstripe card...perfect placement between the SWEET and CAPORAL.
Here is another Sweet Caporal goof, this one is MISSING the overstrike. Never drink and operate heavy printing press machinery.
Brian
Always one of my favorites.
atx840
08-24-2019, 07:26 PM
Neat, looks good to me.
https://i.imgur.com/cVgEl66.gif
Neat, looks good to me.
https://i.imgur.com/cVgEl66.gif
The great overlays. Great card there!!
Alexcards
08-25-2019, 01:42 PM
I actually saw that card in person at the National along with 70+ other T206s that he had.... definitely legit. I made an offer; however, he was wanting to sell the whole group for well more than I thought it was worth.
tedzan
08-25-2019, 02:44 PM
Hey guys
Pardon my reply delay....as we were away....enjoying Cape May.
OK,
Circa..Fall of 1909, American Lithographic switched from brown HINDU to the OLD MILL backs on 34 of the Southern League cards.
Simultaneously, ALC was also modifying SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) cards with "Factory #649" overprints. During this process,
the usual printer's practice of test printing runs prior to final press runs, which resulted in these brown inked OLD MILL cards [with
the red ink Factory #649 overprint (inverted)]. I do not think any of these printer scraps were inserted into cigarette packs.
Anyhow some years ago, we accounted for 13 of these So. Lge. cards with the inverted red overprint. These 13 are confirmed........
Bernhard
Foster
Greminger
Helm
Hooker
Jordan
Kiernan
Mullaney
Paige
Reagan
Revelle
Sid Smith
Thornton
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg
Now, regarding SWEET CAPORAL cards (such as this Lajoie), I have not seen any.
Furthermore this may be trivial....but it concerns me that the placement of the inverted red overprint on this Lajoie card
differs from the placement of the red overprint on the the Greminger card.
Another concern I have is that the normal "#649 overprint" was printed on 34 different T206 subjects. Why have we not
seen, in all these years, any of the other 33 subjects with this type of printing error on their backs ?
TED Z
T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.
chuckw
08-25-2019, 05:37 PM
Ted - thanks for the for the information on the 13 Southern League cards that were found. I have no concerns regarding the authenticity of the card since it was in at attic for many decades with many other early 1900 cards. As to why we have not seen any previously, I think it's probably due to the scarcity as you mentioned - they may have been a test run that may not have gone into tobacco packs. I hope you and the family enjoyed Cape May!
Aquarian Sports Cards
08-25-2019, 06:10 PM
I don't think Ted was worried about the authenticity of the card itself, but rather of the overprint.
chuckw
09-20-2019, 01:36 PM
The card looks awesome in an SGC holder! It's an awesome one of a kind HOF overprint (upside-down) T206 error and it's in an auction (Wheatland Auctions) that ends soon! I hope it finds a good home - https://www.wheatlandauctionservices.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=13500
MVSNYC
09-20-2019, 03:57 PM
Too bad they didn't put "upside down overprint" (or such) on flip. Did you request they do that? Would be much better, if they could.
RedsFan1941
09-20-2019, 06:25 PM
i think the 1.5 grade more than makes up for not having a description of the overprint
chuckw
09-21-2019, 10:27 AM
Did not ask for added description but they authenticate that the card and overprint are authentic, which wasn't a concern since they were in an attic for decades.
soxinseven
09-21-2019, 03:16 PM
Too bad they didn't put "upside down overprint" (or such) on flip. Did you request they do that? Would be much better, if they could.
Last I talked to them they had stopped adding such notations on the flip. I have an E98 McGraw (SGC 40) with an upside down back and they would not add it to the flip. Years ago, I had them add the same description on a Holmes to Homes card (upside down back) that I had found.
Exhibitman
09-21-2019, 04:42 PM
They will note wrong backs and blank backs (but those get an A). I have a graded wrong back somewhere with it noted.
Rhotchkiss
09-21-2019, 05:14 PM
This thread has been a clinic on how to passively promote your own card at auction on the main page.
RedsFan1941
09-21-2019, 07:10 PM
This thread has been a clinic on how to passively promote your own card at auction on the main page.
the seller is a pro at that. a recent dog food card comes to mind. he owes Leon a check, in my opinion.
Aquarian Sports Cards
09-21-2019, 07:56 PM
Well he does advertise also so it doesn't bother me. If he didn't do paid advertising I would be bothered.
Of course that could be a little self-serving of me :)
MVSNYC
09-21-2019, 08:36 PM
i think the 1.5 grade more than makes up for not having a description of the overprint
I respectfully disagree.
In the world of freaks/errors. Having the variation noted on the flip has always been very important to the people collecting them (ask Johhny V, Jamie, Wonka [wherever he may be], Scott & Hank, etc)...and the "AUTH" designation usually has gone hand in hand with that, and more desirable, as it typically denotes a true "scrap" that wasn't put into packs. (Where's Johnny V?, he can wax poetry about all this).
I can't speak to whether or not SGC has stopped doing that, but I can tell you that I was the first person to get them to start doing it around 10 years ago. I had a discussion with Dave Foreman and others at SGC at a show; I had several printing errors with me (missing color, upside down back, multi-strike, etc). They told me they had never added those descriptors before, but they thought it was fine to start doing it, thus mine were the very first ones they did it with.
(Incidentally, I like this card a lot...no issue there).
Yeap.
You know more than I do about the subject, Mike. But that has been my observation too. Not long ago I sold an extreme miscut (2 almost half cards on front) and it had several punch holes and creases. It sold quickly for a pretty penny. It will be interesting to see where this one goes this Sunday ast auction...
I respectfully disagree.
In the world of freaks/errors. Having the variation noted on the flip has always been very important to the people collecting them (ask Johhny V, Jamie, Wonka [wherever he may be], Scott & Hank, etc)...and the "AUTH" designation usually has gone hand in hand with that, and more desirable, as it typically denotes a true "scrap" that wasn't put into packs. (Where's Johnny V?, he can wax poetry about all this).
I can't speak to whether or not SGC has stopped doing that, but I can tell you that I was the first person to get them to start doing it around 10 years ago. I had a discussion with Dave Foreman and others at SGC at a show; I had several printing errors with me (missing color, upside down back, multi-strike, etc). They told me they had never added those descriptors before, but they thought it was fine to start doing it, thus mine were the very first ones they did it with.
(Incidentally, I like this card a lot...no issue there).
Rhotchkiss
09-30-2019, 08:58 AM
The card looks awesome in an SGC holder! It's an awesome one of a kind HOF overprint (upside-down) T206 error and it's in an auction (Wheatland Auctions) that ends soon! I hope it finds a good home - https://www.wheatlandauctionservices.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=13500
Chuck, were you happy with the results of the/your auction? I think $4,800 with Buyer's Premium was quite strong.
chriskim
09-30-2019, 11:27 AM
Auction house never happy of their results.... :)
Congrats to your winning Rhotchkiss!
Rhotchkiss
09-30-2019, 12:08 PM
I didn’t win this card.
irishdenny
09-30-2019, 12:32 PM
I respectfully disagree.
In the world of freaks/errors. Having the variation noted on the flip has always been very important to the people collecting them ...
Yep!!!
"Watchya Tink bout these Grades wit No Mention of the Obvious!?"
SGC no longer puts various anomalies on the flip.
RedsFan1941
09-30-2019, 01:00 PM
things must have changed since mcsnyc talked to them. maybe he could talk to them again.
Rhotchkiss
09-30-2019, 03:39 PM
See this one, where PSA put both the brown old mill and the 649 OP on the flip. SGC should do this too.
chriskim
09-30-2019, 04:14 PM
That famous Brown OM OP card used to be owned by Hall. It is very obvious why it got captionon the label. LOL
I think the Lajoie error and that brown OM OP are somehow related but I just couldnt figured out how. Both 649 OP were printed about the same place.