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View Full Version : PSA: Please Explain "Authentic Altered"


bmcnutt
08-18-2019, 01:44 PM
I am not big into sending cards to PSA, SGC, or any other card grader just to have a card graded. I feel "card grading" has somewhat ruined the market for collectors because so many cards are over priced, while I feel "car authentication" is great for the hobby due to the number of scumbags trying to ruin the greatest hobby on earth by infesting it with fakes and altered products. And anyone or any company that supports those scumbags are just as bad.

I recently purchased a 1909 E95 Philadelphia Caramel Frank Chance in the photo from a card shop in Bristol, Virginia. I tried to upload an image, but the site would not let me. It was obvious from the feel of the card, the looks, and of course.....the smell, the card is authentic. Since I have a rule that any tobacco or Pre-WW2 cards I buy online have to be authenticated by PSA or SGC, I decided I would at least get this card authenticated to keep everything uniformed. I figured, by the looks of the card, it would be graded at best a PR 1. But when I saw that it was graded "Authentic Altered", I was extremely shocked. I asked PSA multiple times to explain to me what was "altered", but they could not.

With all of the negative publicity that PSA is receiving in regards to grading trimmed cards, they need to start addressing what aspects brought them to the decision a card has been "altered". I lost all confidence in PSA. If you are going to accuse a collector or "altering" a card, but you are going to assist the scumbags on how to "trim" a card for a better grade, then you need to explain your finding to the collector as well.

I have no clue how to "alter" a card or even trim a card.

perezfan
08-18-2019, 02:14 PM
They must’ve seen something that existed before you took ownership?

Maybe the grader was having a bad day, or got in a fight with his wife the night before. Maybe he was just lazy during his 30-second timeframe for appraisal.

Who knows... the whole process is random and dripping with slime, with favorable grades for “preferred” submitters. Regardless of the reason, it’s a perfect example of not needing a self-appointed expert to determine your cards’ status. YOU be the judge!

x2drich2000
08-18-2019, 02:43 PM
Most likely the card is trimmed or recolored or something else was done to it. If you can get a image, the board will likely be able to tell you right away what was wrong. The board software doesn't like uploading directly from a mobile device due to the file size. If you want to send me the scan, I'll upload it for you.

Dj
x2drich2000@yahoo.com

trdcrdkid
08-18-2019, 03:44 PM
PSA is not accusing you of altering the card; they're saying that at some point in the past, somebody altered it. This wasn't necessarily done with a malicious intent to deceive; it could have been any number of innocuous things. For example, there's the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle on eBay that I posted a link to in the "Bearded Mickey" thread. PSA graded it "Authentic Altered" because some kid in the distant past drew/scratched a beard on Mickey. There was no intent to deceive anybody or make the card look better; quite the contrary.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202441317919?ul_noapp=true

https://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Screen%20Shot%202019-08-18%20at%202.35.40%20PM.png

Or look at this T206 Cobb that PSA also graded "Authentic Altered". If you look very closely at the top border, you can see that there used to be something written in pencil there, and that somebody subsequently erased that pencil marking, also taking out some of the black border. (It's a lot easier to see if you have the card in hand and look with a magnifying glass.) I'm 99% sure that this erasure is the "alteration" that got the card its grade. Now, it's good to know about that, but I, personally, am not too bothered by it, so I'm happy to have this card in my collection. Others may disagree, and that's fine.

https://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/14B12D96-76D3-41C6-B0ED-32397672E641.jpeg

drcy
08-18-2019, 04:59 PM
You essentially got a PR1 as you expected.

According to my personal grading scale, an altered card is a Poor 1. And some poor cards are so beat up that PSA gives them an altered.

Bigshot69
08-18-2019, 10:31 PM
By any chance was the card in question purchased in a screwdown holder?

trdcrdkid
08-18-2019, 10:37 PM
By any chance was the card in question purchased in a screwdown holder?

I thought of that as a possibility too.

I think the OP needs to post pictures.

doug.goodman
08-18-2019, 10:56 PM
Posting the card in question as a favor to the OP...

Bigshot69
08-18-2019, 11:38 PM
Im not crazy about the lower right corner and Im not entirely sure what is covering up the left half of the “c” in Chicago, but I also don’t see anything definitive that would lead me to feel the card is clearly restored.

If I were holed up in a cubicle in Newport Beach I think I would be okay giving this a 1 at this time. There might be something I am missing by not judging the card in hand though.

Thanks for sharing.

FYI-I took a second look after I posted this and noticed the right edge gets shorter near the center of the card then wider towards the corners. This could have given the grader pause as well. There is also what appears to be a different sploch of color near the left side of Chance’s neckline. It might just be a small stain. Very tough to tell from the scan.

Aquarian Sports Cards
08-19-2019, 12:00 AM
They're calling that bottom right trimmed, I am almost positive.

CobbSpikedMe
08-19-2019, 12:08 AM
I don't see where it's altered either. It all looks like honest wear to me and just a poor condition example. The authentic grade could just be from the excessive wear, but I don't see the altered part.

x2drich2000
08-19-2019, 12:56 AM
They're calling that bottom right trimmed, I am almost positive.

Agree, that whole right side is wavy. While it may be honest wear in some cases, when an edge doesn't go in a straight line they are still going to call it altered.

glynparson
08-19-2019, 08:08 AM
They're calling that bottom right trimmed, I am almost positive.

I am more than confident this is the correct answer.

Aquarian Sports Cards
08-19-2019, 09:37 AM
All that being said I don't think the difference between that card in "A" or in "1" is going to be significant.

tschock
08-19-2019, 10:40 AM
All that being said I don't think the difference between that card in "A" or in "1" is going to be significant.

That's part of my gripe (not necessarily the OP's). There seems like a few educated guesses here. But there should be no need to guess. If you as a TPG are going to distinguish among levels of a beat-to-crap card (altered vs not altered), and in no-one's right mind would grade higher than a 1, why not say why you determined it was altered as well? There is little, if any, monetary incentive to hide the fact that it is altered, so why not provide details?

My rant wasn't directed at Scott, just a jumping off point.

Aquarian Sports Cards
08-19-2019, 10:59 AM
Sometimes they put a reason on the slab such as "Authentic Trimmed". I don't understand why it's not consistent.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah316/dmblau/speaker%20trimmed_zpswnbn46tx.jpeg

drcy
08-19-2019, 01:34 PM
The OP's card is in poor condition. Whether or not it was trimmed 100 years ago, it's in poor condition.

Personally, I wouldn't mind altered cards being graded as Poor 1, and I think it would be awesome for every altered PWCC and Gary Moser cards to be relabelled a 1. I'd love for the Gretzky Wagner to be relabelled as Poor 1. Talk about sending a message.

I'd start a movement for altered cards, including restored cards, to be labeled Poor 1.

perezfan
08-19-2019, 01:47 PM
The OP's card is in poor condition. Whether or not it was trimmed 100 years ago, it's in poor condition.

Personally, I wouldn't mind altered cards being graded as Poor 1, and I think it would be awesome for every altered PWCC and Gary Moser cards to be relabelled a 1. I'd love for the Gretzky Wagner to be relabelled as Poor 1. Talk about sending a message.

I'd start a movement for altered cards, including restored cards, to be labeled Poor 1.

That is a GREAT idea. It might actually discourage card doctors from doing their thing. But first, we need a Grading Company that can be effective identifying the alterations.

bmcnutt
08-24-2019, 10:15 PM
Personally, I think card grading companies like PSA are bad for the collectors. I think Card Authentication Only would be great. We definitely need this will all of the fakes & frauds. The reason I think grading is bad for collectors is because it only benefits the sellers such as PWCC. I saw earlier that Dean's Cards has a 1960 Topps Willie McCovey Rookie Card NM/MT listed on eBay for a whopping $340.00. The book value is $250.00. Card grading companies are causing sellers to sell ungraded cards at premium prices above the book value all because of overpriced graded cards.

egbeachley
08-25-2019, 08:11 PM
Personally, I think card grading companies like PSA are bad for the collectors. I think Card Authentication Only would be great. We definitely need this will all of the fakes & frauds. The reason I think grading is bad for collectors is because it only benefits the sellers such as PWCC. I saw earlier that Dean's Cards has a 1960 Topps Willie McCovey Rookie Card NM/MT listed on eBay for a whopping $340.00. The book value is $250.00. Card grading companies are causing sellers to sell ungraded cards at premium prices above the book value all because of overpriced graded cards.

No. Dean’s Cards has always listed their inventory at more than double market price. You can ALWAYS find a better deal within a few minutes of looking.