PWCC is alive and well

[paul]

I haven't commented much on PWCC, but I thought many would be interested in seeing this listing that just ended:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1908-PC770-American-League-Postcard-Ty-Cobb-SGC-3-VG-PWCC/143344757027?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[ullmandds]

dunno...a super rare item like that will sell for good money anywhere!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I was going to bid, but I was reluctant without a HE or Purple Label sticker.

[Johnny630]

If PWCC was served with subpoenas and the FBI is supposedly after them then why haven’t they been shut down to operate until the investigation was concluded

It doesn't makes sense to me....

I still can’t get this thought outta my mind that there is a backdoor deal going on with PWCC and his Attorney with the FBI/ Federal Prosecutor and PSA especially in light of his attorneys most recent statements.

The acceptance towards conservation is sickening me.....I have a sick feeling this is where we are headed with this crap

[Peter_Spaeth]

The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.

[Johnny630]

The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.

Thoughts on my second and third points

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thoughts on my second and third points

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

[BeanTown]

As much as I don't like PWCC, it seemed to be normal bidding. That postcard is super rare and is too rare for its own good. It went too cheap IMHO and the consignor would have dine much better with a reputable AH. Congrats too whoever won it. The Max Stein was pretty goid value as well. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, to see lower prices realized on premium cards. PWCC days of manipulation or turning a blind eye to stuff are over (I hope). Two years or less, they be gone.

[drcy]

I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect.

That's my assumption as well.

I am very, very, very far from convinced that there are undetectable serious alterations. I suspect that many to most of these undetected alterations are obvious if examined correctly.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

What I've said many times over the years. If there's nothing wrong with something, then why the reluctance to disclose it? And, of course, the answer is because the person knows there's something wrong with it-- or, more specifically, it lowers the market value. If it raised the value they would say it underlined and in bold, and often in the auction title.

For example: --->> PROFESSIONALL CLEANED!!!!! <<-----

[silvor]

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Jackie-Robinson-ROOKIE-RC-79-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-A/352740702155?hash=item5220fbf7cb:g:ftoAAOSwRnNdQ1O s

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

[bobbyw8469]

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Jackie-Robinson-ROOKIE-RC-79-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-A/352740702155?hash=item5220fbf7cb:g:ftoAAOSwRnNdQ1O s

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

[silvor]

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

[bobbyw8469]

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

And Mastro turned into Legendary....before they left. We won't be able to see the ramifications until the indictments come down. I don't think PWCC will perform "business as usual". Hard to say. Too many people are leery, and that CAN NOT be a good thing.

[Johnny630]

Only a matter of time till people stop pulling big money out of their pockets for cards like its burning a hole in it. This is a total sellers market...Much better times to buy are on the horizon/

[Rhotchkiss]

This is a super rare PC. I think Stevenovella had one up on eBay a few months ago, as an auction with $40k minimum bid, but I don’t think it sold. Anyway, I agree with a Jay that the card went relatively cheap - in fact, I think the hammer price on the card may indicate the opposite of your hypothesis

[bnorth]

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

[Johnny630]

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

[bnorth]

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

I agree but even a complete moron with eventually quit hitting themselves in the thumb with a hammer. It just takes longer for some than others.:)

I also agree that scammers will do everything they can to keep the scam going. Cash is king, receipt what receipt.;)

[benjulmag]

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.

[Fuddjcal]

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

[Fuddjcal]

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

Very well stated Ben, but don't worry. "My submissions are popping" and I have such a warm feeling pissing down my leg with excitement...:D:D:D:D:D people are such IDIOTS PERIOD

[Peter_Spaeth]

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.

[Fuddjcal]

"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.

oH, THANK YOU. I was feeling left out. I wanted my subs to Pop too. Even though I never had a submarine.

Just like my resto mod engine is 454 bored to 464. Everyone was asking me if it was "stroked". I never knew what that was but I felt I was missing something? Even though the car has 100K into it, I always wanted a "stroker".... but I never knew WTF they were talking about. I don't know what "bored" means either? But I have it and it feels good.

I do know what "fraudulent scam" means though and this card debacle is the very definition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And when you open a pack or box and do well, it's a "nice rip!!"

Since the CU message board deletes ("poofs") anything of substance, it's mostly about poppage and rips. :)

[topcat61]

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

[slidekellyslide]

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

Of course they don’t care. Even the great white knight of the hobby was still bidding in Legendary Auctions after he was banned.

[drcy]

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby.

This is true-- and PWCC "investment theories" are premised on recruiting new buyers.

I've often said that the change will be how cards are priced. I've never said that these altered cards will be worthless or not collected, but priced differently. I think in the future, PSA numbers will be priced differently. I've suggested that in the future the price differential between a 9 and a 10 will be different because these micro differences in grade will be perceived differently.

Of course, many of these issues are perceived differently by the person who owns (is invested in) the cards as opposed to the person shopping for cards. The owner often overlooks issues that the shopping is consciously looking fro, the same way that many sellers dismiss (and sometimes omit) information that the buyer wants to know. Even if conservation and alterations are accepted and number gradable, the cards will be priced differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

Brent isn't using something as obvious as bleach, it's some kind of peroxide I believe.

[bobbyw8469]

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.

[BeanTown]

Tom Skerritt tells all his new pilots the samething Brent/Moser tells all their new cards.

[Michael B]

oH, THANK YOU. I was feeling left out. I wanted my subs to Pop too. Even though I never had a submarine.

Just like my resto mod engine is 454 bored to 464. Everyone was asking me if it was "stroked". I never knew what that was but I felt I was missing something? Even though the car has 100K into it, I always wanted a "stroker".... but I never knew WTF they were talking about. I don't know what "bored" means either? But I have it and it feels good.

I do know what "fraudulent scam" means though and this card debacle is the very definition.

My brother has been a mechanic for over 40 years so I have learned a little, though not much, about cars and engines. Bored means that the cylinder was bored out to increase the size. This means you also use larger pistons. This increases the total displacement of the engine. In your case it was increased from 454 cubic inches to 464. You get the displacement by getting the volume of each cylinder by measuring the displacement between when the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder to the top. You multiply by the number of cylinders to get the total displacement. Stroked means that you modified the crankshaft so that the piston travels farther into the cylinder which creates greater displacement and power. Those numbers are no longer used as all manufacturers have gone to liters. A 400 engine would be 6.6 liters, a 464 would be around 7 liters..

[SMPEP]

I think it comes down to the consignors.

PWCC will be in business as long as they get good "stuff" from their consignors.

Even if I (and others) pass because of bidding on their stuff, enough people will bid to keep prices strong.

And I must admit - I get it.

Even though I will avoid them, if they posted for sale a W572 Walt Barbare - trimmed/doctored/shill bidding/whatever - I would make an exception and bid. Sorry. It's one of my final 3 - and doctored or not - I've been looking for it for years. So if I see it, I'm bidding. I'm sure there are cards others are looking for too, and they will make certain exceptions for (even if I don't think they "should").


So the only question is will consignors still go to PWCC?

The answer to date appears to be YES.

[jhs5120]

I think it comes down to the consignors.

PWCC will be in business as long as they get good "stuff" from their consignors.

Even if I (and others) pass because of bidding on their stuff, enough people will bid to keep prices strong.

And I must admit - I get it.

Even though I will avoid them, if they posted for sale a W572 Walt Barbare - trimmed/doctored/shill bidding/whatever - I would make an exception and bid. Sorry. It's one of my final 3 - and doctored or not - I've been looking for it for years. So if I see it, I'm bidding. I'm sure there are cards others are looking for too, and they will make certain exceptions for (even if I don't think they "should").


So the only question is will consignors still go to PWCC?

The answer to date appears to be YES.

I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.

[bobbyw8469]

I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.

I noticed the same thing myself. Last night, I sold a 1933 Goudey Joe Sewell PSA 2. It brought $35. PWCC sold the same card in a PSA 2.5 (which my '2' looked better than). They brought $65. Just seems that their cards are always bringing in more money for inferior examples. It is like those bidders didn't even see my card.

[jhs5120]

I noticed the same thing myself. Last night, I sold a 1933 Goudey Joe Sewell PSA 2. It brought $35. PWCC sold the same card in a PSA 2.5 (which my '2' looked better than). They brought $65. Just seems that their cards are always bringing in more money for inferior examples. It is like those bidders didn't even see my card.

I'm starting to think there are some buyers who only use eBay for PWCC. Here is one of the winner's of a card a consigned: Link. (https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401834284062&bidtid=799120781027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792)

If I had seen this on any other PWCC card I would've assumed it was shilled. Another winner had 1600+ feedback and 29% of his bids are with PWCC. They just get more views and more bidders.

[bnorth]

I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.

I get what you are saying. I have been on eBay since close to the beginning. I have noticed about 1 in 100 sales are a serious PITA. I rarely sell any more but just had one of those A-Holes. Got a NPB so a little over a week after the auction ended for the item I got to relist it so I could really sell it.

Just too bad there wasn't someone who does this ethically on eBay for the same fees PWCC does.

[steve B]

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Jackie-Robinson-ROOKIE-RC-79-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-A/352740702155?hash=item5220fbf7cb:g:ftoAAOSwRnNdQ1O s

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

You are not the only one to have observed potential issues with that right edge.

[ullmandds]

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

PWCC sucks...but this is more a reflection on how badly PSA sucks!!!!

[ullmandds]

I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!

[bnorth]

I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!

That's a lot of work for a slab that pops apart in a half a second.

[ullmandds]

That's a lot of work for a slab that pops apart in a half a second.

haha...it really wasn't...took 30 seconds or so...and it was more fun!!!!!

[HRBAKER]

If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?

[drcy]

So if you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?

Likely that business would be out of business.

[HRBAKER]

Likely that business would be out of business.

True at some point but it was a hypothetical.
Plus it's Monday.

[ullmandds]

If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?

similarly if you had a used car and the carfax which evaluated your used car was shown to be incapable of accurately evaluating your car...resulting in lots of disgruntled purchasers of these used cars...how long would carfax/PSA be in business?

But the facts show that this hobby is predicated on corrupt practices...and most don't care...so as many of you like to say...the beat will go on!

[bnorth]

If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?

Most people would be lined up around the block to consign and buy from them. Then those in line would be calling the 3 people trying to tell them the place is dishonest names and making silly excuses for the dishonest dealer.

[perezfan]

I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.

It’s true... they get so many more sets of eyes than any individual collector/seller could ever hope to reach. That’s why it would take a really concerted boycott effort for them to even feel anything. It would require a prioritization of ethics over money.

But because of the money motivator, this will likely never happen. That’s why the FBI investigation is so critical. I fear that they are the only entity that can put a stop to this deception.

[jhs5120]

It’s true... they get so many more sets of eyes than any individual collector/seller could ever hope to reach. That’s why it would take a really concerted boycott effort for them to even feel anything. It would require a prioritization of ethics over money.

But because of the money motivator, this will likely never happen. That’s why the FBI investigation is so critical. I fear that they are the only entity that can put a stop to this deception.

I'd imagine for most of the consignors, it's a time motivator. It takes hours to scan, list and ship items on eBay.

Also, ironically, PWCC protects me from fraud and bad actors on eBay. Every month I have to deal with scam artists on eBay trying to take advantage of me. It costs real time and money.

[Johnny630]

Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

Even with all the disgust I can still find a way to laugh at this !!

Thank The Good Lord For Vintage N/T/R/E Non Sport Cards :-)

[ullmandds]

[QUOTE=Johnny630;1907749]Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!

[Johnny630]

[QUOTE=Johnny630;1907749]Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!

You’re correct Pete they don’t care so the vast majority will remain happy selling, pushing, pumping, shilling, and manipulating all along while bragging about their PSA graded cards.

It’s garbage...total trash.

[ullmandds]

Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" I’m more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they don’t. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and that’s everybody’s else’s are too high. If it is fake that’s concerning but I don’t get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."

[Johnny630]

Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" I’m more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they don’t. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and that’s everybody’s else’s are too high. If it is fake that’s concerning but I don’t get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."

That attitude is why I’m out of this Industry....I can’t stomach it....What about all the people that have done it right over the years? What a big up yours to them…… The new generation only wants to gamble they could care less about quality it’s only about the label of the Newport Beach Slab.
To many people are making money....Nothing is going to change except more agreed in the industry

[Bocabirdman]

Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better. :eek:

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........

[HRBAKER]

Before TPG all of the altered cards were raw, at least now you have a choice of how you like them, raw or slabbed. :p
Slabbing certainly appears to have made it a higher paying profession.

[Paul S]

If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there? No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much;)

[HRBAKER]

Coin vs Conscience, a struggle as old as man :D:):p:cool::eek:

[Rhotchkiss]

That attitude is why I’m out of this Industry....I can’t stomach it....

Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......

[jhs5120]

Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......

It’s like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.

[CMIZ5290]

As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....

[ullmandds]

As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....

minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.

[Johnny630]

Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......

You’re correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.

[bnorth]

You’re correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.

Please don't stop posting about it. If everyone stops posting about it the scum bags win because it will go away.

[egri]

Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......

It’s like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.

I don’t like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that I’ve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, that’s their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.

[Johnny630]

I don’t like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that I’ve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, that’s their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.

Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I don’t wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.

[BeanTown]

As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....

Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.

Joe sold some stock to cover the tax obligations on options that vested.

[perezfan]

Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I don’t wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.

I don’t think that losing interest is a reason to stop posting. Wanting things fixed is a noble cause, and perhaps these call-outs will help in some way. I read that Law Enforcement does frequent this site quite often. So while some don’t like the negativity, it doesn’t hurt to voice your opinion. Plus it just feels good to vent!

I happen to agree with your insights and opinions, but can understand the other side as well. I see how the repeated gloom and doom could be a big buzzkill to dedicated collectors. I personally still love collecting, but feel like we’ve been taken to the cleaners over the past few years. I’m sure people roll their eyes at my comments, and I did stop posting for about a month. But then realized that if I can’t vent here, where the hell can I? My wife doesn’t get it, and my friends don’t care. The Beagle is the only one who’ll listen... and then even he starts howling!

[CMIZ5290]

minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.

Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...

[ullmandds]

Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...

Ever heard of Anger Management, Kevin? Did I say something that was/isn't true?

[CMIZ5290]

I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry

[CuriousGeorge]

Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you can’t always be the exact same can it?

I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry

[brianp-beme]

No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much;)

My ebay ID is used-cards. I guess I should have chosen "pre-ownedcards". All these years I must have been sending out the wrong impression about my condition challenged cardboard vehicles. What in the heck was I thinking 15 years ago?

Brian

[oldjudge]

So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.

Sounds great theoretically, but I don’t see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I don’t know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary it’s really is tough to tell.

[CMIZ5290]

Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......

[CMIZ5290]

Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you can’t always be the exact same can it?

Don't even get me started with you.....Better go take a nap

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sounds great theoretically, but I don’t see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I don’t know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary it’s really is tough to tell.

I also wonder how a machine would look for a factory edge especially where some of the elite doctors are now able to do a passable job of simulating them? Maybe but sounds awfully futuristic.

[Fuddjcal]

I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.

I already am fruitcake, your still pooping...:D:D:D

[ullmandds]

Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......

Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"

[CMIZ5290]

Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?

[Fuddjcal]

My brother has been a mechanic for over 40 years so I have learned a little, though not much, about cars and engines. Bored means that the cylinder was bored out to increase the size. This means you also use larger pistons. This increases the total displacement of the engine. In your case it was increased from 454 cubic inches to 464. You get the displacement by getting the volume of each cylinder by measuring the displacement between when the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder to the top. You multiply by the number of cylinders to get the total displacement. Stroked means that you modified the crankshaft so that the piston travels farther into the cylinder which creates greater displacement and power. Those numbers are no longer used as all manufacturers have gone to liters. A 400 engine would be 6.6 liters, a 464 would be around 7 liters..

I did not know that, thank you very much. I do know that I still managed to make it to Malibu today AND with the 600HP, IT WAS STILL FAST. I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!! VROOMMMMM. Still. I'm feeling empty inside because I have no stroker and I really really wanted one. Just like I wanted PSA to tell me if a card has been trimmed....I had the feeling I couldn't trust them but they soaked me for a bundle the last 2 years alone anyway. I am a schmuck. I blame myself. I knew it but was under the spell.

That doesn't mean I will continue to get my teeth kicked in, like so many other dopey mc dope dopes that can't quit it.

Have a little pride and give it a rest for a while. Just say no & quit popping. It is very stupid and not very useful anyway, IMHO.

[ullmandds]

i have no hard on...atleast none for anything having to do with you, Kevin.

I just find it funny how you are bragging about having said this or that forever...when PSA/TPG'ers are at the core of this problem...and you have been about as big a fan boy for it/high grade as long as I can remember. That's it!

Back to the ice...oh wait it's summer!

[frankbmd]

PWCC is alive and well
It’s just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poem’s trimmed, another dud.

[Fuddjcal]

Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better. :eek:

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........

I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.:D:D:D:D

[Goudey77]

I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry

Where’s 🍿 emoji. I’m just here for the entertainment...

[Goudey77]

I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.:D:D:D:D

It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

[Paul S]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?
Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument:)

[wondo]

It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

Welcome to the Net54 boards.

[doug.goodman]

PWCC is alive and well
It’s just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poem’s trimmed, another dud.

Amazing.

What kind of scanner do...

[ullmandds]

Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument:)

if we're setting any records straight here...I have lived in MN 20 years...I have gone ice fishing ONCE!!!!!!!!!

[bnorth]

It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

Martin, I 100% agree with you. Those guys need to get the scandal to go away as fast as possible to protect their altered high end cards values.

The cards are in the industries most respected slabs. That should be all that matters, that and PWCC brings the best prices in their amazing completely honest auctions.:rolleyes:

[steve B]

It’s like a bunch of vampires barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.

Fixed that for you! I think.... I might have fixed the wrong word, but I'll stand by my fix...:D

[steve B]

Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...

If they're the best, I really should find someone who is organized and start my own service.
They've set the bar so low....

[BigBeerGut]

The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!

[steve B]

I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!!

Then you need to have a serious talk with your tire and suspension guys. You're leaving sooo much speed on the table!!!

[MULLINS5]

I'm one that has said they're out of the [graded] hobby.

PWCC, PSA, Brent, Joe, FBI, eBay, et cetera - who knows what will happen. I'm sitting back and

I've been building some pretty nice raw sets lately and having more fun than I did before

[Peter_Spaeth]

The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!

Who this man could be I just don't know. :)

[RedsFan1941]

It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

this is the most spot-on accurate post in months. so much huffing and puffing here while the real work is being done elsewhere.

[Goodsport40]

Legal type question:

If the authorities are able to prove that Moser and Brent knowingly committed fraud by selling altered items as authentic(at higher grades due to trimming, etc.) would each item sold be considered one count of fraud each?

My apologies if this has been covered in another thread. Thanks.

[frankbmd]

Legal type question:

If the authorities are able to prove that Moser and Brent knowingly committed fraud by selling altered items as authentic(at higher grades due to trimming, etc.) would each item sold be considered one count of fraud each?

My apologies if this has been covered in another thread. Thanks.

Not a legal answer, but if each incident was a separate count of fraud, you would need a team of mathematicians with advanced degrees to tally the total. Believe it or not I have a BS in Mathematics and would volunteer........

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I think I’ve got the hang of it. How am I doing?

[Bocabirdman]

Not a legal answer, but if each incident was a separate count of fraud, you would need a team of mathematicians with advanced degrees to tally the total. Believe it or not I have a Degree in BS and would volunteer........

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I think I’ve got the hang of it. How am I doing?
Fixed that for you, Frank.

[frankbmd]

fixed that for you, frank.

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[Goodsport40]

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Lol. That is what I thought. We all want quick action against the guilty parties, but it appears this may take some time.

[Johnny630]

Pay back restitution for the bad cards......some probation/community service, maybe some home detention....that's about all I see coming from this.....
there is a deal behind each and every courthouse door

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pay back restitution for a small percentage of the bad cards......some probation/community service, maybe some home detention....that's about all I see coming from this.....
there is a deal behind each and every courthouse door

Fixed it for you.
We'll see what happens, I guess. I am glad at least some significant amount has been repaid, in the meantime.

[Johnny630]

Fixed it for you.
We'll see what happens, I guess. I am glad at least some significant amount has been repaid, in the meantime.

yup it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things....the same crap will always be in this industry....it's a shame....

[CuriousGeorge]

Johnny, believe me I get it and feel your pain, but do you really think this is very different than many other industries? Unfortunately this is how it often works in the world and while this one digs a little deeper because it’s what we know and love, it’s likely just another scam in another business to the people investigating it.

yup it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things....the same crap will always be in this industry....it's a shame....

[Johnny630]

Johnny, believe me I get it and feel your pain, but do you really think this is very different than many other industries? Unfortunately this is how it often works in the world and while this one digs a little deeper because it’s what we know and love, it’s likely just another scam in another business to the people investigating it.

Wow.....I don’t know how to reply to that.....

[CuriousGeorge]

You don’t need to respond but unfortunately it’s sad and true. Corruption is everywhere. The mayor of NYC sells out his office to donors. The governor of NY’s best friends are in jail for taking and making bribes but he of course knew nothing. It sucks but this is life. If TPG are going to have relaxed restrictions as to how they grade cards, unscrupulous people are going to try and exploit it. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Wow.....I don’t know how to reply to that.....

[barrysloate]

No politics please. Net54 is a politics free zone.

[tschock]

yup it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things....the same crap will always be in this industry hobby....it's a shame....

Freudian slip? :D

[Yankees1964]

Thoughts on my second and third points

In the past couple of years I was involved with the FBI on with a fraud/theft investigation of a non profit that I am on the board of directors for. It was incredible to me at the time how slow the investigation was going. About six months into it, I had a discussion with the Agent in Charge and asked her why the heck it was taking so long when we clearly had identified what happened and knew who the offender was. She told me that they are slow and methodical on purpose. She told me that every "i" is dotted and every "t" is crossed before they move with any indictments. She chuckled and told me that this is why you rarely see the FBI lose a case. There were so many times that I thought nothing was going on and yet below the surface there were a dozen or more people working on it. If they truly are investigating PWCC and or PSA or anyone else, they won't know it till the FBI wants them to.

[Fuddjcal]

It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys. :D

It's because we stand for something. guys like you didn't even want to believe from the start how deep and how long this scam show has been running.

We are doing this believe it or not for idiots just like you martian that can't understand normal thinking. So there is a record of it, on the inter web.

Dufusas like yourself will still continue to pop and play the corporate PSA game all the while try to silence truth tellers. Did your cards pop, oh boy, they're popping, I'm so excited. pop goes the weasel. You were wrong from the beginning and you are wrong now, WAKE UP dummie. It's a scam.

[bobbyw8469]

It's because we stand for something. guys like you didn't even want to believe from the start how deep and how long this scam show has been running.

We are doing this believe it or not for idiots just like you martian that can't understand normal thinking. So there is a record of it, on the inter web.

Dufusas like yourself will still continue to pop and play the corporate PSA game all the while try to silence truth tellers. Did your cards pop, oh boy, they're popping, I'm so excited. pop goes the weasel. You were wrong from the beginning and you are wrong now, WAKE UP dummie. It's a scam.

While I understand your frustration, THE WHOLE HOBBY ISN'T A SCAM!!!! If you think it is, maybe you should take up needlepoint? It's safer.

[perezfan]

It's because we stand for something. guys like you didn't even want to believe from the start how deep and how long this scam show has been running.

We are doing this believe it or not for idiots just like you martian that can't understand normal thinking. So there is a record of it, on the inter web.

Dufusas like yourself will still continue to pop and play the corporate PSA game all the while try to silence truth tellers. Did your cards pop, oh boy, they're popping, I'm so excited. pop goes the weasel. You were wrong from the beginning and you are wrong now, WAKE UP dummie. It's a scam.

Maybe Peter Nash wrote "Pop Goes the Weasel" about a PSA submission gone wrong?

[rhettyeakley]

It's because we stand for something. guys like you didn't even want to believe from the start how deep and how long this scam show has been running.

We are doing this believe it or not for idiots just like you martian that can't understand normal thinking. So there is a record of it, on the inter web.

Dufusas like yourself will still continue to pop and play the corporate PSA game all the while try to silence truth tellers. Did your cards pop, oh boy, they're popping, I'm so excited. pop goes the weasel. You were wrong from the beginning and you are wrong now, WAKE UP dummie. It's a scam.

What is truly amazing is that every time PWCC is the topic Goudey77 (Martin) crawls out from some rock somewhere and defends PWCC. He is on the payroll and it is obvious.

[bounce]

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

You mean the game where each of us gets to set our own rules of how to play, and can then change those rules, or change the game being played entirely, based on what we decide is in our own, or our clients, or our shareholders, or [insert interested/related party name here] self-interest? ;)

I'm not trying to be malicious or attacking, please don't read it that way. I'm smiling while I type. But, that was kind of a throw away line.

And, one other thing. I guess if we don't like it, we can just do what Joe O says and basically "take our ball home". Don't Get Cheated - Yep, now that line was PERFECT!

[CuriousGeorge]

I will take that in the spirit in which it was given and I do appreciate that, but my point is really that in any industry there will always be people trying to game the system if given the opportunity. So for me the question is why were the Brent’s and Moser’s and apparently many others allowed to get away with this for so long when they never should have been able to if TPG’s of the world were doing their jobs even remotely correctly? To me as much as I may dislike what Brent and the rest have done, it is the PSA’s and the like perhaps who are the far bigger problem. It’s cute that Orlando and Sloan are laughing now, but as they say, he who laughs last, laughs best.

You mean the game where each of us gets to set our own rules of how to play, and can then change those rules, or change the game being played entirely, based on what we decide is in our own, or our clients, or our shareholders, or [insert interested/related party name here] self-interest? ;)

I'm not trying to be malicious or attacking, please don't read it that way. I'm smiling while I type. But, that was kind of a throw away line.

And, one other thing. I guess if we don't like it, we can just do what Joe O says and basically "take our ball home". Don't Get Cheated - Yep, now that line was PERFECT!

[Johnny630]

If PSA doesn’t take some accountability/responsibility In this the industry will never been the same....Well it will continue to be the same just more corrupt.....Agree on one point, industry is loaded with crumb bums