View Full Version : One more way to ruin the hobby - fractional ownership
Throttlesteer
08-08-2019, 09:57 AM
I know it's been mentioned, but SCD just posted an article about this nonsense. It just seems this hobby has become such a dog and pony show lately. I'm curious to hear what others think about owning "shares" of a high-grade 1952 Mantle or T206 Wagner.
NYHighlanderFan
08-08-2019, 10:02 AM
Isn’t that what Gretzky did with Bruce McNall back in the 1990’s?
wondo
08-08-2019, 10:16 AM
A great idea - it's the only way I could buy a plane!
D. Bergin
08-08-2019, 10:35 AM
I'm sure it would rope tons of people in. Who would be in charge of the oversight in this scheme? The Foxes or the Hens?
Bitcoin for Baseball Cards is about what this sounds like.
Somebody will certainly make a lot of money on this idea. More will lose.
ullmandds
08-08-2019, 10:35 AM
Isn’t that what Gretzky did with Bruce McNall back in the 1990’s?
I don’t think going in on a card with another friend is the same as this model?
mechanicalman
08-08-2019, 10:35 AM
I know it's been mentioned, but SCD just posted an article about this nonsense. It just seems this hobby has become such a dog and pony show lately. I'm curious to hear what others think about owning "shares" of a high-grade 1952 Mantle or T206 Wagner.
Do you have actual reasons you think this will "ruin the hobby?"
Bpm0014
08-08-2019, 10:41 AM
I'm looking for 200 members to go in 1/200th with me on a 1989 Fleer Gregg Jefferies rookie....
D. Bergin
08-08-2019, 10:45 AM
They could put all the micro-trimmed edges of PSA 7,8,9 and 10 52Topps Mantles on insert cards and also call that "fractional ownership". I mean, they already do that with other stuff. Bet they'd make a killing.
:D:D
D. Bergin
08-08-2019, 10:47 AM
I'm looking for 200 members to go in 1/200th with me on a 1989 Fleer Gregg Jefferies rookie....
Haha, first thing I thought of for this thread. Jefferies specifically.......but I left that one on the cutting room floor. ;)
trdcrdkid
08-08-2019, 10:58 AM
Here is the article. I seem to remember something like this being proposed during the 1980s hobby boom. One question I have is whether shares in a card would be transferrable, like shares of stock, and if so whether they would trade on any kind of exchange. The fact that this guy is apparently doing a filing with the SEC makes me think the answer is yes.
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/collectable-buy-shares-sports-cards-memorabilia/
Collectable Aims to Offer Shares of High-End Sports Memorabilia
August 7, 2019 By Rick Limpert
In 1602, when the Dutch East India Company issued the first shares of stock on items that were made tradeable on the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, little did these capital investors know that their business model would be used centuries later by passengers on private jets, yacht enthusiasts, vacationers– and now sports memorabilia collectors.
Collectable’s Jason Epstein says it’s about time.
Collectable has pivoted from first being an aggregator for auction companies, compiling online auction information and becoming a large database of trading card and memorabilia sales, to now allowing collectors to be fractional owners of some of the most high-end sports collectibles on the market.
An advisory board of industry-wide experts will select cards or memorabilia items for purchase based on desirability, scarcity, and market demand. Shares in the item will then be offered at a pre-determined price with an eye on making a profit for all once the item is re-sold. There will be no fees charged to the collector/investor who participates.
“Sports collectibles are highly desired and have proven to be superb investments,” explains Epstein, who as of this week ascended to COO of Collectable while thumbing through a stack of baseball cards from the 50’s and 60’s at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Chicago. “We give people a chance to own a high-end card like a 1952 Mantle graded 9. Not many people could afford that, so Collectable gives people to buy a share of that card for as low as $50.”
While Collectable may not be a carbon copy of a company like NetJets, Epstein, who likes the comparison, says there are some similarities.
While investors are fractional owners, unlike part owners of airplanes or yachts, they don’t get fractional use. However, they won’t be hidden away in a bank vault either.
“Right now, our plan is to have these items stored in one of three areas of the country,” says Epstein. (Locations would be) Miami, L.A. and New York. They will be in showrooms, where you can go and view them live.”
Epstein says the showrooms would be “museum-like” and that they want people to enjoy the pieces by being able to visit the items in which they’ve invested. While in possession of Collectable, the items would be 100% insured and bonded with 24/7 security in place.
Any item purchased would eventually be re-sold, hopefully for a profit shared by investors.
Decisions on selling will be conducted by vote. If an offer is made on an item and it seems like a reasonable offer, Collectable would alert the group and a vote would be held. If at least a 50% of the votes cast are to sell, it would then be sold.
“The goal is for the group to resell it,” adds Epstein. “They could sell it as quick as possible or hold for years.”
Epstein, an avid collector who has spent most of his career in real estate, says they expect the program to be up and running by the end of 2019.
“The focus will be on modern baseball and basketball as that has the most demand right now. Everything we plan on selling will be graded and authenticated by the top companies, but we will also have our own internal team of experts to back up their authentication.”
Epstein said SEC filings are now being completed.
He was attending the National for the first time and enjoyed seeing the mix of high-end shoppers and average collectors with smaller budgets sharing the same trading floor and talking about sports past and present. Making some of those big-ticket cards accessible in some form to the average Joes is something he’s looking forward to.
“This is what we all love. Sports. It brings families and teams together. Now we are aiming to bring collectors together.”
More information, including an early sign up option, is available at www.collectable.com.
Throttlesteer
08-08-2019, 10:59 AM
Do you have actual reasons you think this will "ruin the hobby?"
It's cumulative. But, what happens to the collector trying to find something fairly rare, only to find that the few examples are tied up in a fractional ownership of "investors". As previously stated, who provides the oversight for these "assets". They note that you can visit your investment, but most won't take the opportunity. You're trusting your money is tied up in what they say it is based on......? Maybe a Moser card? What happens if it goes missing? What's it insured for?
The general theme is that all of these wonderful ideas take the fun out of collecting. It's always about someone's get-rich-quick scheme.
orioles70
08-08-2019, 11:26 AM
Unreal!!! I have a feeling the only people who will profit from this venture will be the ones who are paid for administration...bookkeeping, filing of tax returns, brokerage statements, etc...you wont be able to file your tax return until you receive your card brokerage statement showing your share of any gains or losses on sales
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
tribefan
08-08-2019, 11:27 AM
sounds like the old Cardtarget.com
TheBig6
08-08-2019, 11:36 AM
Sounds To Complicated.
pologrounds
08-08-2019, 11:48 AM
Buying hobby dictionary that is PSA certified and Purple Sticker verified. Will pay above book.
WhenItWasAHobby
08-08-2019, 11:52 AM
One clear example, in my mind, of fractional ownership that has ruined the hobby is that PSA under Collectors Universe is a publicly traded company. Ultimately, PSA answers to the stockholders and the users of their service are secondary.
PSA engages in a service that is very subjective, and to keep cost low they offer a service of inspecting a card for typically 20 seconds without a rigorous, scientific program to detect alterations. The bottom line is meeting corporate objectives, so it's easy to see how a company like PSA get caught up in a scandal like this.
When I bought the Cobb Back I had to borrow $50,000 from my girlfriend. I offered her a 1/3 share in the card instead. She declined.
Not exactly the same as what is discussed in this article, but similar I think.
Johnny630
08-08-2019, 12:42 PM
TOTAL KABOOKIE THEATER B to THE S
I have some Ocean Front Property in New Mexico you wanna own a fraction of it
packs
08-08-2019, 12:47 PM
How would this even work? If you owned a "share" of a card but never possessed the actual card, what say do you really have in its being offered for sale? Couldn't the person with a majority stake leave it to his children who will then outlive all of the other "shareholders"? How many generations is someone really willing to follow the card around for and wait for it to be sold?
tschock
08-08-2019, 01:03 PM
You only really own what you currently have in your hand. Everything else is up for grabs, by legal or illegal means.
btcarfagno
08-08-2019, 01:23 PM
This idea has been going on in the horse racing industry for decades. I have no idea about its success or failure as a concept in that industry, but it does seem to be even more prevalent today than it was ten years ago. So it must not be doing too bad.
Apples to oranges horse racing to sports cards I get that.
ToddW.
08-08-2019, 02:08 PM
Let's not forget the biggest question -- who gets to include it in their PSA Registry.
Haha.
trambo
08-08-2019, 02:30 PM
Just curious as to why people think this is much different at its core than buying stock in a company. If you believe a t206 Wagner would appreciate in value then why wouldn't you buy a portion of it if you could provided you were sure it would be a legitimate purchase you could see if/when you wanted.
In my circle of card buddies, some of us have discussed this very thing. The question always gets to who keeps it and where do you find one to even buy.
packs
08-08-2019, 03:17 PM
Just curious as to why people think this is much different at its core than buying stock in a company. If you believe a t206 Wagner would appreciate in value then why wouldn't you buy a portion of it if you could provided you were sure it would be a legitimate purchase you could see if/when you wanted.
In my circle of card buddies, some of us have discussed this very thing. The question always gets to who keeps it and where do you find one to even buy.
Not really seeing the comparison. When you buy a stock you own it. It's yours. You can sell it any time you want.
If you bought a piece of a Wagner, when do you get your money out of it? Who decides when to sell it? Who holds the card? How do you find yourself ever getting paid if the majority owner has no intention to sell?
chalupacollects
08-08-2019, 03:27 PM
I'm looking for 200 members to go in 1/200th with me on a 1989 Fleer Gregg Jefferies rookie....
I'm in!
chalupacollects
08-08-2019, 03:34 PM
How would this even work? If you owned a "share" of a card but never possessed the actual card, what say do you really have in its being offered for sale? Couldn't the person with a majority stake leave it to his children who will then outlive all of the other "shareholders"? How many generations is someone really willing to follow the card around for and wait for it to be sold?
I would think they may have to put a time limit on ownership where it has to be sold to avoid generations of families having to deal with following the card(s) around...
Bigger question is what if they drop a million or two on a card that later on is found to be altered, conserved or Moserized???
Who takes that hit?
packs
08-08-2019, 03:48 PM
I would think they may have to put a time limit on ownership where it has to be sold to avoid generations of families having to deal with following the card(s) around...
Bigger question is what if they drop a million or two on a card that later on is found to be altered, conserved or Moserized???
Who takes that hit?
I don't know....how can you really gauge when the best time to sell the card will be? If you put a time limit on the sale you might be setting yourself up for a loss due to forced sale at the wrong time.
timzcardz
08-08-2019, 03:50 PM
I would think they may have to put a time limit on ownership where it has to be sold to avoid generations of families having to deal with following the card(s) around...
Bigger question is what if they drop a million or two on a card that later on is found to be altered, conserved or Moserized???
Who takes that hit?
That's the beauty of it. You only take a fractional hit! :eek:
Mutton Chop Yaz
08-08-2019, 03:52 PM
It doesn't work, as demonstrated by the Simpsons episode that gave rise to my user name:
https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Three_Men_and_a_Comic_Book
https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Carl_Yastrzemski
Robbie
08-08-2019, 03:58 PM
As the former owner and builder of some fairly successful financing related companies, one factor which would add some credibility for me... would be if an investor could get a legitimate lending institutions to underwrite a loan against the asset of their fractional share.
But think about this... Can you imagine if THIS COMPANY would allow their buyers/investors to purchase cards on "margin"?... or offers other kinds of financing?
Mark17
08-08-2019, 05:05 PM
I'm looking for 200 members to go in 1/200th with me on a 1989 Fleer Gregg Jefferies rookie....
I'm in!
Chumps.
Every investor of quality Jefferies cards knows his Fleer rookie is 1988.
Not really seeing the comparison. When you buy a stock you own it. It's yours. You can sell it any time you want.
If you bought a piece of a Wagner, when do you get your money out of it? Who decides when to sell it? Who holds the card? How do you find yourself ever getting paid if the majority owner has no intention to sell?
I suppose that you could sell your interest in the card. I can see it now: REA fall auction, featuring 5% of a Wagner, 8% of a Cobb Back, and 10% of a 1952 Mantle. :eek:
glynparson
08-08-2019, 05:53 PM
Once again he was ahead of the curve.
JollyElm
08-08-2019, 05:56 PM
When I read the word "fractional" in the title of the thread, I thought it was going to be about PWCC selling off the slivers they trimmed off of valuable cards.
trambo
08-08-2019, 06:38 PM
Not really seeing the comparison. When you buy a stock you own it. It's yours. You can sell it any time you want.
If you bought a piece of a Wagner, when do you get your money out of it? Who decides when to sell it? Who holds the card? How do you find yourself ever getting paid if the majority owner has no intention to sell?
Not much different than acquiring a limited partnership interest in real estate or something like that. The agreement(s) would govern your questions in that scenario.
Aquarian Sports Cards
08-08-2019, 07:31 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards is proud to announce Time Share cards. That's right for a one time buy in and yearly maintenance fees you can spend two weeks per year with any one of several desirable cards!
seanofjapan
08-08-2019, 07:34 PM
When I read the word "fractional" in the title of the thread, I thought it was going to be about PWCC selling off the slivers they trimmed off of valuable cards.
I'm surprised Upper Deck never bought up a Wagner for the purpose of shaving it into tiny slices to seed into one of their "SUPER RELIC HEROIC HALL OF FAME COMMEMORATIVE SP GOLDEN ERA FOIL LIMITED" inserts or whatever.
Its only a matter of time before a card company does this.
steve B
08-08-2019, 08:53 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards is proud to announce Time Share cards. That's right for a one time buy in and yearly maintenance fees you can spend two weeks per year with any one of several desirable cards!
Any benchwarmers cards in the group? ;)
Once again he was ahead of the curve.
He might have thought of it but I haven't seen it be successful yet.
Goudey77
08-12-2019, 06:04 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards is proud to announce Time Share cards. That's right for a one time buy in and yearly maintenance fees you can spend two weeks per year with any one of several desirable cards!
This is actually a cool idea
Goudey77
08-12-2019, 06:07 PM
I'm surprised Upper Deck never bought up a Wagner for the purpose of shaving it into tiny slices to seed into one of their "SUPER RELIC HEROIC HALL OF FAME COMMEMORATIVE SP GOLDEN ERA FOIL LIMITED" inserts or whatever.
Its only a matter of time before a card company does this.
This would also be a great idea. How about an image of the Wagner card with the cut piece overlaying it’s spot on the image. It’d be ripfest madness. I’d imagine they could get about #/50 pieces
Aquarian Sports Cards
08-12-2019, 06:51 PM
This is actually a cool idea
As long as I'm not the guy who's in charge of making sure the cards come back on time...
bnorth
08-12-2019, 07:19 PM
I'm surprised Upper Deck never bought up a Wagner for the purpose of shaving it into tiny slices to seed into one of their "SUPER RELIC HEROIC HALL OF FAME COMMEMORATIVE SP GOLDEN ERA FOIL LIMITED" inserts or whatever.
Its only a matter of time before a card company does this.
If anyone is interested in this type of idea I have some slivers I saved from a 1939 Play Ball Ted Williams rookie.
I have though about making a custom card with a clear window in it with some of the slivers showing. Then on the back show a picture of the donor card before and after the trimming.
It is the rookie Williams I bought in the BST section that had almost all the borders trimmed off. I squared up the card and put new full borders on it off a donor 39 Play Ball.:)
Goudey77
08-12-2019, 09:22 PM
If anyone is interested in this before and after the trimming.
It is the rookie Williams I bought in the BST section that had almost all the borders trimmed off. I squared up the card and put new full borders on it off a donor 39 Play Ball.:)
Quick Someone call the FBI. :D
Or instead of fractional all of the time ownership how about seasonal ownership, like a condo or something? :)
I know it's been mentioned, but SCD just posted an article about this nonsense. It just seems this hobby has become such a dog and pony show lately. I'm curious to hear what others think about owning "shares" of a high-grade 1952 Mantle or T206 Wagner.
ullmandds
08-14-2019, 10:47 AM
Or instead of fractional all of the time ownership how about seasonal ownership, like a condo or something? :)
ya that whole timeshare thing seems to have worked out well for many!!!!
Aquarian Sports Cards
08-14-2019, 11:02 AM
Or instead of fractional all of the time ownership how about seasonal ownership, like a condo or something? :)
You needed to look up a few posts! :)
Aquarian Sports Cards is proud to announce Time Share cards. That's right for a one time buy in and yearly maintenance fees you can spend two weeks per year with any one of several desirable cards!
Throttlesteer
08-14-2019, 11:56 AM
Or like breaking bread, you get to trim off a piece before it goes to the next "fractional" owner.
bounce
08-14-2019, 12:37 PM
Shares in the item will then be offered at a pre-determined price with an eye on making a profit for all once the item is re-sold. There will be no fees charged to the collector/investor who participates.
While investors are fractional owners, unlike part owners of airplanes or yachts, they don’t get fractional use. However, they won’t be hidden away in a bank vault either.
Decisions on selling will be conducted by vote. If an offer is made on an item and it seems like a reasonable offer, Collectable would alert the group and a vote would be held. If at least a 50% of the votes cast are to sell, it would then be sold.
Epstein, an avid collector who has spent most of his career in real estate, says they expect the program to be up and running by the end of 2019.
He was attending the National for the first time and enjoyed seeing the mix of high-end shoppers and average collectors with smaller budgets sharing the same trading floor and talking about sports past and present. Making some of those big-ticket cards accessible in some form to the average Joes is something he’s looking forward to.
Let's see - so it's offered at a pre-determined price, but there are no fees? Well then how exactly do you pay for the insurance, the people, the showrooms, and certainly the "management" of this portfolio? What we can be certain of is that the buyers won't be paying just their pro-rata portion of the purchase price of the asset. Insert whatever word you want for "fees", but isn't that actually the easiest way to say it? Guess not...
So if buyers don't get fractional use, then actually comparison to NetJets isn't a very good one. But it sounds good!
So unless you have to be part of, and stay in, the "IPO" purchase of each asset, if the fractional shares can be exchanged at various times then it's safe to say each buyer will have different "basis" in the asset. That would very possibly give rise to the "vote" forcing some people into losses on their investment. That doesn't sound very good. And without rules of individuals/groups accumulating "majority ownership", again someone could be forced into an action they didn't want.
An avid collector, who was recently "promoted" to COO of a company, attending the National for the first time? Interesting.
I'm pretty confident the only people who will make out in the long run on this are the ones "managing" the portfolio. Let me be first, or I guess in this case second, to get in line for that job.
To answer one of the original questions - yes, something similar was discussed and maybe even offered (not sure on that) back in the height of the late 80s boom. It was a bad idea then, and it remains a bad idea today.
Mark17
08-14-2019, 01:19 PM
Agree with all the above. Lots of problems and knotty details with all that.
So... how about a tontine? Get a bunch of people, about the same age and health, everybody kicks in a set amount that covers the cost of the cards, a prepaid safe deposit box, and one-time lawyer fees to set it up.
Last one alive gets the entire portfolio.
Could be a lot of fun. At Christmas, members would be sending each other pet scorpions (in faulty cages,) sky-diving memberships, fast cars (that might need a little brake work,) and of course, boxes of chocolates...... might be best to re-wrap and send those to another member next year.....