SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

[Fuddjcal]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/anonymous-psa-insider-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.

[chalupacollects]

Damn, just wish it wasn't an anonymous source... this is getting uglier by the minute...

[JollyElm]

Undoubtedly, only a tiny percentage of the true number of doctored cards residing in slabs has been exposed to the light. There's a lotta cardboard beneath the waterline...

361143

[egbeachley]

Brent, is that you?

If this was even 5% true, a new team from the FBI might need to be assigned.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/anonymous-psa-insider-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.

There are some very disturbing allegations in that article to say the least. I'm not an attorney, but I'm very certain that a Non Disclosure Agreement can not be used to conceal illegal activities.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The credibility of this person probably is going to rise or fall on the specific allegation about the internal investigation of a grader by PSA.

[bnorth]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/anonymous-psa-insider-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.

That does seem a little high but not too outrageous if it includes all alterations.

[Johnny630]

Bad......I’ve been saying this for years...there are thousands of altered cards in PSA holders with number grades.

With PSA failing to take any responsibility in this mess in grading altered cards what is the future for them ? I have no trust in their cards? .

The only way I see them changing their tune is if their bottom line is negatively affected...

I go back to the Wagner they never accepted they graded the card wrong....as altered....the industry still thrived.....how much longer can this be blown off?

When will it crash? And I’m not even bringing up the alleged manipulation of those numbers in 2014 by certain AH ....that in itself is total bogus.

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....

[jason.1969]

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....

Too big to fail. (And I'd say were already there.)



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[WhenItWasAHobby]

Bad......I’ve been saying this for years...there are thousands of altered cards in PSA holders with number grades.

With PSA failing to take any responsibility in this mess in grading altered cards what is the future for them ? I have no trust in their cards? .

The only way I see them changing their tune is if their bottom line is negatively affected...

I go back to the Wagner they never accepted they graded the card wrong....as altered....the industry still thrived.....how much longer can this be blown off?

When will it crash? And I’m not even bringing up the alleged manipulation of those numbers in 2014 by certain AH ....that in itself is total bogus.

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....


I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.

[barrysloate]

I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.

PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.

[Johnny630]

PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.

Isn’t that sad Barry ....why is this still true ?? We know their slab label is not accurate .....

[Johnny630]

I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.


Agree 100% I’m glad I’ve sold almost all ......I’m over collecting ....it’s not fun anymore to me.

Industry Leader PSA built on OPINIONS Since Day One......I’m not a lawyer....but to me this is what makes them 100% Teflon UNTOUCHABLE to any Legal Liabilities EVER PERIOD. How Can Any Company Be Held Responsible for Anything When they’re JUST RENDERING A OPINION..... PERFECT.....they do have brilliance in protecting their Brand.

Their liquidity has Distorted Rational Peoples Minds...I give PSA Credit for Being a Masterful Marketing Machine that has made millions based upon A Wonderful Story. Totally give them credit for it.

Until their bottom line is negatively affected nothing will change at PSA

[barrysloate]

Isn’t that sad Barry ....why is this still true ?? We know their slab label is not accurate .....

Money.:(

[jason.1969]

Hard to say if and when a tipping point will come. All I can say is I've tipped personally. At the National yesterday anytime I passed a table with a bunch of graded cards I just kept walking.

At this point I trust raw I can hold in my own hands 100x more than graded. The slab and grade literally mean zero to me anymore and if anything make me think--rational or not--the card's been doctored or graded preferentially, like a 4 for this guy.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/5a39d864c8201b50ddee97e66052e63d.jpg

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[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Agree 100% I’m glad I’ve sold almost all ......I’m over collecting ....it’s not fun anymore to me.

Industry Leader PSA built on OPINIONS Since Day One......I’m not a lawyer....but to me this is what makes them 100% Teflon UNTOUCHABLE to any Legal Liabilities EVER PERIOD. How Can Any Company Be Held Responsible for Anything When they’re JUST RENDERING A OPINION..... PERFECT.....they do have brilliance in protecting their Brand.

Their liquidity has Distorted Rational Peoples Minds...I give PSA Credit for Being a Masterful Marketing Machine that has made millions based upon A Wonderful Story. Totally give them credit for it.

Until their bottom line is negatively affected nothing will change at PSA

Also no lawyer here, but opinions seem to be a lot more protection on subjective matters. Objective matters should be based on fact. Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding aren't subjective, either they happened or they didn't and aren't really up for a debate or an opinion.

[silvor]

[url]

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%


60% ?? :eek:

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.

[BeanTown]

60% ?? :eek:

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.

I would be shocked if that high, as there are millions of cards. We are talking Pre war too, arent we?

[drcy]

I would believe 60% for altered cards.

It's possible he meant altered but said trimmed.

[wdwfan]

I've been wondering what would happen to PSA graded cards. But someone probably said it best. They'll continue to sell well. You buy a PSA 5, you go to sell a PSA 5, the next buyer will think it's a PSA 5. That will never change.

I don't own a single graded card, but I'd been thinking about getting into graded. Simply for the fact that whomever tries to sell after I'm gone will have a better chance to sell if it's graded. But every time I go to pull the trigger on a graded card to get started, I'm like could be trimmed. Then I back off.

I have all raw cards, and I will continue to have all raw cards. It sucks for whomever will be trying to move them after I'm gone.

[HRBAKER]

PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.

I think that Barry is right here. I truly believe that many many people are more focused on the fact that PSA has created "the coin of the realm" as it relates to selling/trading in the today's marketplace. They are a lot less focused on accuracy and legitimacy.

[Tabe]

60% ?? :eek:

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.

Not a chance in the world that number is accurate. No way. Not even close. Waaaay too high.

[drcy]

I think that Barry is right here. I truly believe that many many people are more focused on the fact that PSA has created "the coin of the realm" as it relates to selling/trading in the today's marketplace. They are a lot less focused on accuracy and legitimacy.

However, it takes only a large percentage of collectors to not take it as the 'coin of the realm' for the values to fall.

I expect values to fall, and there to be a substantial change to the hobby pricing.

[kailes2872]

However, it takes only a large percentage of collectors to not take it as the 'coin of the realm' for the values to fall.

I expect values to fall, and there to be a substantial change to the hobby pricing.

Do you see this with only high grade cards? It seems like that is where the split really starts between raw and graded. 4-6 seem to be similar price for raw vs graded - with a small premium for the slab. Or does the tail wag the dog? i.e. the price of the graded card sets the market and the raw is a % below the graded card?

[drcy]

I didn't say where pricing would change, or that it would be across the board.

I expect the changes to happen where the number grade is a major part of the price.

[Griffins]

Hard to say if and when a tipping point will come. All I can say is I've tipped personally. At the National yesterday anytime I passed a table with a bunch of graded cards I just kept walking.

At this point I trust raw I can hold in my own hands 100x more than graded. The slab and grade literally mean zero to me anymore and if anything make me think--rational or not--the card's been doctored or graded preferentially, like a 4 for this guy.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/5a39d864c8201b50ddee97e66052e63d.jpg

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That card was previously in a SGC 50 holder, and crossed to PSA 4.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

There was a time when I had lots of T206 PSA 4's that looked like that. Basically I got 4's on anything that was crease-free and without any major damage.

What bugs me about PSA's standards changing is it seems to have affected EVERYONE'S standards. I see some threads discussing condition and shake my head. I'm not even that old, but cards that would've been called EX are being called VG etc. Obviously, with the position I'm in, I've had to adjust to the trends or I'd have a lot of pissed off buyers, but I'm sure this grade deflation has been a contributing factor to the scandal, even if only a small one.

[slidekellyslide]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

[forceplay sport]

This story is just unbelievable !!! This hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper !!!
My 2 cents is this will create a problem for any graded high end, anyone will always wonder about it.

[HRBAKER]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Exactly where I think this is headed.

[Johnny630]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

100% spot on!! I’ve said this from day one ....Registry And to a Lesser extent Pop report Fuel Newport Beaches arrogance and Blow Off nothing to see here mantra.....Registry Has Been And Sadly Will Continue to their Number 1 Money making machine. I’d say it’s been the biggest money maker in the industry.

It’s very sad....If altered cards become acceptable this industry is toast

[benjulmag]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

[drcy]

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

[drcy]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

I believe if there is technology and methodology to identify unaltered cards and those that are altered, then this won't be true.

Side by side, the unaltered version will always be more prized and higher valued, and, in comparison, the altered cards will be considered lesser.

There may be more acceptance and conscious collecting of altered cards because they are so commonplace, but the unaltered cards will become the prized cards, and the altered cards will be considered second tier.

And there will be a taint and questioning of those "high end" collections and collectors who don't have their cards examined by the new technology.

The first time some rich guy presents an unaltered set, and such a set is auctioned off by REA or Heritage or whomever, that will set the new standard. All that all PSA stuff will be questioned and considered lesser.

Futher, many PSA registry people may be collecting the numbers, but once it's shown and generally considered by the hobby that these numbers are at the least unreliable, and at the most false, I think even that number collecting $$ money will change and, at least, soften. There's nothing to brag about if the general hobby scoffs at the numbers.

I think that PSA's current, and usual, approach of doing nothing and hoping it just blows over, will doom them. Because the cows have now left the barn.

Duly note that, even on the PSA forum, many posters are saying they are not buying graded cards, will never buy from PWCC, and or at least delaying buying graded cards until they see how things work out-- and this is from PSA's board.

[slidekellyslide]

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

[benjulmag]

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

[slidekellyslide]

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if PSA is already working on it themselves or already know exactly what to do to detect many of these alterations. You do bring up a good point about their warranty though and opening them up to liability. They don't seem too concerned about it at the moment though...at least publicly.

[barrysloate]

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

[Johnny630]

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Past behavior is indicative of future behavior.....

Agree +1

[Peter_Spaeth]

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

Beware the Ides of March!!

[barrysloate]

Beware the Ides of March!!

I marked my calendar.:)

[boneheadandrube]

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.


Why does the guest have a high pitched voice? Is this a commentary on registry collectors, or just people who would actually brag about baseball cards at a cocktail party? :)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

I hope you are right.

[drcy]

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

I agree, except I think the altered cards will be worth less rather than dead in the water. Worth less not worthless.

I've long said I thinking pricing and valuation of the cards will change, in various ways.

Even if altered card are accepted, I don't think theer will be the same cache (cash) between, say, a 9 and a 10.

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

[frankbmd]

I agree, except I think the altered cards will be worth less rather than dead in the water. Worth less not worthless.

The value of the space between worth and less = .2361*the value in the original PSA slab, which greater than the value without the space.:eek:.

I've long said I thinking pricing and valuation of the cards will change, in various ways.

Even if altered card are accepted, I don't think theer will be the same cache (cash) between, say, a 9 and a 10.

If true, you will get something for nothing (the space), but you will lose your shirt in the process.

[bosoxphan]

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

Think you’re right in the long run but it’s gotta be disclosed and the price reflects that. Comic books alterations/conservation are accepted but the book has a different color flip and the alterations are listed. And the book sells for a fraction of the price.

[benjulmag]

I agree, except I think the altered cards will be worth less rather than dead in the water. Worth less not worthless.

I've long said I thinking pricing and valuation of the cards will change, in various ways.

Even if altered card are accepted, I don't think theer will be the same cache (cash) between, say, a 9 and a 10.

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

If I had a PSA card that I wanted reevaluated under the latest grading method using all technology has to offer, the last company I would want to do it would be PSA. To say they would have a conflict of interest would be an understatement along the lines of an example Peter came up with -- a person upon seeing Noah standing on his ark announcing that a passing shower is coming.

For this reason, even if PSA somehow overcomes the legal hurdle of patent infringement and manages to come up with a way to compete with a new company that uses the latest technology, I would think the new company would have a huge leg up, as who in his/her right mind would prefer PSA over this new company for purposes of reevaluating a PSA card?

[drcy]

Some people are saying "PSA will do this," "Registry will do that."

However, if the FBI and criminal prosecutions involving false grading are involved, the question will be how much say will PSA and Registry people in it? PSA may hope "Let's hope it all just blows over and people accept altered cards," and Registry people may say the same. However, if the FBI says these altered cards and the selling thereof (as non-alerted) is a criminal offense, and all these misgraded cards in the Registry are products of criminal or whatever behavior, PSA and Registry won't be able to just ignore it-- certainly not at resale time and grading time.

I think their hands will be forced.

At the least, the altered cards will have to be overtly labelled as altered (How the hobby prices those then is another matter), and PSA will have to address the altered cards. PSA will not be allowed to "whistle by the graveyard" or "grandfather clause" all their past mistakes . . . As I said in previous post, what does PSA now do when altered cards are resubmitted for grading? The now know many are altered, and the now know the FBI is involved. And what does the hobby as a whole now do, with so many people who resubmit cards hoping for a better grade? This all changes things a lot, and not in a way that PSA will be fond of.

I firmly believe that PSA will have to address in serious fashion all the altered cards that they misgraded-- and there a ton of them, involving lots of $$ and a boatload of card owners, including wealthy Registry folk, who aren't going to be happy when their cards are addressed in serious fashion. Tell me how this isn't a problem, or at least a conundrumm (including in a legal sense), for PSA and Registry set owners?

[oldjudge]

The link in the OP’s post starts with the following statement:

Sports Card Radio recently obtained an anonymous letter from a believed PSA insider.

If what follows is true, involving some significant names in the hobby, it is really troubling. However, given the seriousness of the allegations, I would hope there is more behind it than an anonymous letter from a believed PSA insider. Anyone making these types of accusations should have to disclose their name and explain how they know these facts. Otherwise, reputations can be ruined for no reason.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I marked my calendar.:)

Do you remember the one-hit wonder song by the group Ides of March?

[Johnny630]

Somewhere earlier I read a quote from some dude saying
While there are questions of what constitutes an improper alteration
I was like WTF improper alterations???? To me any/all alterations, adding or removing to a card, are Fraudulent and Not Good.
What a downplay !!!! Come on Man....

Are we headed to this

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Conserved 8

As compared to

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Restored 8

Oh Right Joe Just Stop complaining...what a crock of Bull S

[BeanTown]

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

[ullmandds]

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

Don't forget rebuilt corners!

[barrysloate]

Do you remember the one-hit wonder song by the group Ides of March?

No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.

Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.

[Johnny630]

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?


I could see them doing this ......would be a total disaster evaluating pricing Geez what a mess

[mferronibc]

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).

[benjulmag]

Some people are saying "PSA will do this," "Registry will do that."

However, if the FBI and criminal prosecutions involving false grading are involved, the question will be how much say will PSA and Registry people in it? PSA may hope "Let's hope it all just blows over and people accept altered cards," and Registry people may say the same. However, if the FBI says these altered cards and the selling thereof (as non-alerted) is a criminal offense, and all these misgraded cards in the Registry are products of criminal or whatever behavior, PSA and Registry won't be able to just ignore it-- certainly not at resale time and grading time.

I think their hands will be forced.

At the least, the altered cards will have to be overtly labelled as altered (How the hobby prices those then is another matter), and PSA will have to address the altered cards. PSA will not be allowed to "whistle by the graveyard" or "grandfather clause" all their past mistakes . . . As I said in previous post, what does PSA now do when altered cards are resubmitted for grading? The now know many are altered, and the now know the FBI is involved. And what does the hobby as a whole now do, with so many people who resubmit cards hoping for a better grade? This all changes things a lot, and not in a way that PSA will be fond of.

I firmly believe that PSA will have to address in serious fashion all the altered cards that they misgraded-- and there a ton of them, involving lots of $$ and a boatload of card owners, including wealthy Registry folk, who aren't going to be happy when their cards are addressed in serious fashion. Tell me how this isn't a problem, or at least a conundrumm (including in a legal sense), for PSA and Registry set owners?

The points you raise are prescient, and at the National I had conversations with the FBI about them. The discussion centered around a business model that cannot detect expertly done alterations, yet attracting business by giving prospective customers the impression that it can. At the very least PSA should be required to give a warning about the limitations of the services it provides, much the same way, say, cigarette manufacturers have to include a warning about the health dangers of smoking. Unless, though, PSA felt they would be exposed to criminal liability by not providing such a disclosure, I would think legislation would be required to accomplish it.

I don't know what if any impact the current FBI involvement will have on PSA, but I can say that based on my discussions with the FBI, I got the impression that they seem well aware of the limitations of the PSA business model.

[chalupacollects]

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

And there is a patent on a new digital , computer based grading system...I've just been wondering if that group is getting ready to introduce it or maybe sell the technology to PSA...

The patent paperwork or link to it was posted here maybe a year ago by Peter Spaeth I believe? Several lawyers out of California and some former Microsoft engineers...

[HRBAKER]

Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.

Great horn section too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Great horn section too.

On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should

[barrysloate]

The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.

[HRBAKER]

On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should

Yeah, there's that.
I remember it vividly blaring out of the speakers at the city pool when I was a wee lad. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.

Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.

[barrysloate]

Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.

They were both good, so it's just a matter of taste. I have both in my vinyl collection.

[benjulmag]

This thread has become a bit hijacked. :)

[Johnny630]

This thread has become a bit hijacked. :)

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

[markf31]

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

[barrysloate]

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share. But one doing something completely different, utilizing technology that would, for example, floresce whenever it detected paper alteration, could be enormously successful.

While PSA would no doubt be reluctant to take a second look at cards they graded and admit any problem, a competitor equipped with this technology would be more than happy to take them down. That would be their likely path to a greater market share.

Nothing may happen this week or this month, but this story is far from over. I predict some enterprising soul will turn this hobby upside-down. There is a giant void that somebody is about to fill.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

Great God in heaven you know I love you.

LOL so bad.

[slidekellyslide]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

[slidekellyslide]

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

[chalupacollects]

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share.

Tell that to Amazon, they started out selling books... A new company with a new wrinkle will affect changes with the TPG's....

[Fuddjcal]

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? :D:D:D That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

[bnorth]

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? :D:D:D That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

I thought that is why they change flips and slabs. Then say how great the new ones are and how there "might" be problems with the older version(s).

[Fuddjcal]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

He certainly can be called Dicky Licht man. Had great respect for the man at the beginning speaking the truth, but I guess everyone else was correct about his shady character now that he has to be a bold faced liar for his pal Brent Mastro. The biggest criminal this industry has ever seen. I mean what did we expect? it's very fitting actually.

[benjulmag]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

[slidekellyslide]

I hope you are right, Corey.

[slidekellyslide]

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

[barrysloate]

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

This is almost exactly what I was about to post, nearly word for word. We are definitely on the same wavelength.

Collectors can perceive their own collections any way they want, and if they feel that if the label says it's an 8, case closed, that's fine. But there's a huge problem with it: nearly every collector reaches a day of reckoning when it's time to sell. And at that point it's irrelevant what they think of their cards, as that burden falls solely on prospective buyers.

And when the technology is employed to detect the altered cards, there will be unaltered cards that will set record prices, and a pile of damaged goods which will sell for ten cents on the dollar. Right now it's nearly impossible to distinguish the good from the bad, so a card labeled 8 will sell for an 8 price. But if you knew for sure the 8 was altered, you wouldn't pay anywhere near market value for it.

And if there is any doubt that such technology will be implemented, let me ask you this: is there any area of our lives that isn't being affected by technology? So you know darn well this is going to happen. We don't know when, but I guarantee the new technology will eventually be the standard for this industry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

Agreed.

[perezfan]

I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).

Lots of excellent insight in all of these posts, but I think the quote above says it best. Any new technology model that's introduced cannot involve or be utilized by PSA. There is just way too much conflict of interest. PSA is never going to take on the massive liability that would result from the thousands of previously slabbed cards being exposed as tainted.

They've already demonstrated they cannot be trusted, and that their only true loyalty is to shareholders and profits. As said earlier, any new TPG that enters the fray must provide a significant point of difference, in order to survive. They cannot just emulate what PSA is doing. Perhaps this includes a radically different grading scale, or simply deeming whether a given card is altered or original. In time, I believe that many collectors would embrace it.

In other words, the time is ripe for a new VEHICLE, baby!


Ps. Agree completely... great tune - great memories - cringe-worthy lyrics. :eek:

[Johnny630]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

You sir hit the nail right on the head ...what you said is the bottom line

Excellent

[rats60]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

[perezfan]

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

[taul166]

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

Aren't we still waiting for PSA to address WIWAG which happened in the early 2000s?

[Tabe]

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Either that or the "cart full of cards" that were guaranteed a minimum grade. Neither claim is particularly credible, IMHO.

[Tabe]

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle
Jim Peterik (writer & singer of that song and founder of Survivor) wrote an autobiography a couple years back. It's actually really good. Dude is supremely aware of how lucky he's been and has had a hand in a million hit songs.

[Promethius88]

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

[swarmee]

BGS has no grade guarantee, so their buyers are just out of luck. Until they file lawsuits if they choose to. Class action that they are being duped by the appearance of having a fair grading company that is taking payola to give grades to the largest submitters would be one. They are getting skewered on Blowout.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

SGC is a small fry (submission numbers wise), but I believe they refunded the first few (unless the auctionhouse did instead) and then stopped refunding and closed their auto auth shop. They did recommend one scammed individual try to get restitution from the fraudster who submitted the card. Then they deleted the "Grade Guarantee" they used to have from their website.
But I'm guessing they're still liable for the guarantee on the cards that were graded while it still existed.

PSA was warned 15+ years ago that they were letting scammers submit cards, and stuck their heads in the sand and let the fraud continue. To me, that is complicit.

[blametony]

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

[slidekellyslide]

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

That's a good question. The card is in a private collection and the owner as far as we know would rather have it "as is" - mislabeled and all, rather than challenge PSA with their buyback guarantee.

I don't know who owns the "next best" Wagner in the PSA Pop Report, but if I owned it, I would make a big stink about the "trimmed" Wagner as it diminishes the value of the "next best" Wagner. Just my two cents.

[HRBAKER]

I'm not stunned, it's widely known and hasn't seemed to impact the cards value or ability to be sold.
IOW, the market has said it doesn't care up to this point.
Certainly might be a perspective unique to this copy of this card.

[rats60]

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

The owner has been offer 10 million dollars for the card. The fact that it was cut off a strip instead of coming out of a pack doesn't matter as far as its value. If the value was hurt by Mastro's revelations, you better believe the owner would be holding PSA to their guarantee.

[whitehse]

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

They havn't addressed the Wagner issue nor have they addressed WIWAG as it seems to be a part of their business model. Seems to me the only way we will see any comment is when/if it comes in front of a judge.

And the Ideas of March, I love Vehicle and most of the Jim Peterik catalog.
Being from the Chicago area I think I have seen him anywhere from concerts to the local grocery store produce department giving a concert as a part of the store's grand opening.

[perezfan]

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

[Bigdaddy]

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

I wonder how that corresponds to the overall percentage of graded cards sold?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Throw in the modern serial numbered and other others and Beckett starts fairing MUCH worse, to say nothing of the pristine scandal.

[Rickyy]

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

I wish I could just buy that card and turn around and demand that it be regraded as Authentic.

Ricky Y

[mightyq]

no mention of dick towel, this guy could take out any pen/ink mark, most wrinkles and creases that didnt break paper, and the gum/ wax stain on the back, he would do stacks and stacks of the bowmans, the 51's and 52's...i heard he done thousands....i remember someone saying his mantle count was up to 250+ fixed, and this was 2003.....

[Fuddjcal]

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%


Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

[perezfan]

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor. :(

[Fuddjcal]

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor. :(

You said it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

[Johnny630]

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

100% agree !! TPG will never be done by computers the customer base and grading company’s want crack outs, re submissions....it’s all a gamble sometimes worth thousand to the seller and worth millions to the company. Computerized modern grading of cards will never happen imo
Will be interesting to see what happens....

[CurtisFlood]

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Imagine the registry guys trying to replace all the colored, altered, trimmed cards in their sets. Mission impossible.

[egbeachley]

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

[Johnny630]

How late till the graded card market tanks? Next bad recession or will numbers be much lower this time next year in regards to this ? I’m betting on the latter.

[bnorth]

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:

[Johnny630]

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:


Agree you’re 100% correct

I think it’s more so people don’t care or are covering because they’re holding or pumping/selling PSA slabbed cards. To those guys All that’s cared about is money, sad but factual.

[Fuddjcal]

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

[barrysloate]

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

[frankbmd]

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.:eek:

[barrysloate]

If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.:eek:

Q: Why is Bernie Madoff like a slabbed card?

A: Because they are both entombed.

[Promethius88]

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.

[bnorth]

Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.

Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.:)

[Johnny630]

Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.:)

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

[jason.1969]

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T+1

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[benjulmag]

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Worked out between whom, law enforcement and PWCC, between PSA and its current customers?

That may all be well and good in regard to how THESE players choose to view things. However, it will have no bearing on how the market (i.e., future buyers) view it. In the end, a card is worth what an informed buyer is willing to pay. And if some day (hopefully sooner rather than later), a buyer will be able know what has been done to the card not via terminology (i.e., alteration versus restoration) but instead by the actual work done, the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.

[perezfan]

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

[CobbSpikedMe]

the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.

Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.

[benjulmag]

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

[CobbSpikedMe]

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

I think you're right Corey and I hope these New Buyers do bring down the inflated prices we've been seeing for so many years now. I don't wish doom on the hobby, but a correction would be nice.

[Johnny630]

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

Yes sir exactly !

[irv]

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.



I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.

I'm the same. I am fully aware of the problem and I post regularily on 2 FB sites I frequent but those 2 sites might just be a majority of members here?
One site I was banned/kicked off of after I posted the Hitler parody.

Imo, just because some don't frequently post about it doesn't mean they aren't aware of it.

I had written PSA and PWCC off long before this scandal hit and my reasons weren't even about the doctoring but mainly due to the inconsistency I seen with PSA and the questionable practices I seen from PWCC.
This scandal just cemented/confirmed my reasons/thoughts and I for one, no matter what, will ever get a card graded with PSA nor will I ever purchase or consign any cards through PWCC ever again.

[chalupacollects]

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

[ullmandds]

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

i agree and what would also be invaluable for a new/existing TPG'er would be a database of known original, unaltered examples of every card that can be submitted for grading...this way thickness, size, card stock quality/color could be known and called upon for comparison.

Not sure if this is even feasible financially anymore????

[perezfan]

[QUOTE=irv;1907782]I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huigens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?

[bnorth]

[QUOTE=irv;1907782]I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huygens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?

I doubt any quantity were actually made. I removed the Topps logo and printed up a few blank back versions I sent fellow members for free.

[jason.1969]

Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe [emoji817] that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Fuddjcal]

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?

[Fuddjcal]

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

I think that's what Peter Nash is doing on BO.

[Fuddjcal]

Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe [emoji817] that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Me three.

[barrysloate]

you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?

Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.

I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.

[Leon]

I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.

In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

[CuriousGeorge]

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

[samosa4u]

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

At least one card doctor graded for PSA for a while, some time ago.

[drcy]

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

[ullmandds]

if i had made millions doctoring cards, i wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience.

i beg to differ!

[CuriousGeorge]

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

[Leon]

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

[perezfan]

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

[CuriousGeorge]

But Leon, aren’t we awfully early in this for the FBI to be meting out punishment already? I know some think civil lawsuits should have happened already but as another poster articulately said, these things take time.

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

[drcy]

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

I never suggested the FBI was playing mediator. I am just speculating that at the end of the day a few card doctors might be paying back some restitution, perhaps even of their own accord on the advice of counsel, but I am skeptical that any will end up serving time.

[benjulmag]

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

When it came to any kind of sentencing I think it would certainly be a mitigating factor. If Mastro and Allen had spent the months leading up to trial trying to make people whole I think their sentencing would've gone differently. Of course I too, am no lawyer.

[perezfan]

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

I guess we're talking about 2 different things, then...

Most collectors (the people feeding endless sums of money to PSA) seem to want a 3rd party to "validate" their cards. They view the self-appointed experts as "The Voice of God", and get an ego boost, when their card comes back with a highly-assigned grade (even if it's altered).

I'm guessing the use of technology (or any science for that matter) won't change that mindset.... regardless of how easy the identification techniques become. PSA won't ever admit to their mistakes... which involve multi-thousands of graded cards. So if it then becomes up to the collector to determine what is legitimate and what's not, I honestly think most of these people won't even want to know the truth... especially those who are deeply invested and in love with PSA. A pretty sad state of affairs.

[benjulmag]

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card. So we do not know what they believed. And I suspect many of those who did take the time to think about it probably assumed PSA applied methods a bit more sophisticated and time consuming then in fact they did. Then there are those overtaken by suspended disbelief -- they wanted what they were told to be true so they bought into it.

I also question how sophisticated many of these people are.

Whatever the case, when many people find they have lost large sums of money they are going to be looking for someone to blame. And I think PSA will be held to a higher standard of expertise than the customers they are selling to.

When I spoke to the FBI at the National they seemed well aware as to the limitations of the PSA business model, and I'll be curious to see if one of the results of this situation is that PSA will add some qualifying language as to the limitations of what they can detect.

EDITED to add that I am not saying litigation against PSA will be successful. And as has been noted before, people who buy the slab and not the card to some degree have made their own bed. But I would not be surprised if it gets messy and there is litigation.

[tschock]

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card.

Maybe more importantly, most people sell the slab not the card. Unless of course the card "appears better than its grade". ;)

[barrysloate]

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card. So we do not know what they believed. And I suspect many of those who did take the time to think about it probably assumed PSA applied methods a bit more sophisticated and time consuming then in fact they did. Then there are those overtaken by suspended disbelief -- they wanted what they were told to be true so they bought into it.

I also question how sophisticated many of these people are.

Whatever the case, when many people find they have lost large sums of money they are going to be looking for someone to blame. And I think PSA will be held to a higher standard of expertise than the customers they are selling to.

When I spoke to the FBI at the National they seemed well aware as to the limitations of the PSA business model, and I'll be curious to see if one of the results of this situation is that PSA will add some qualifying language as to the limitations of what they can detect.

EDITED to add that I am not saying litigation against PSA will be successful. And as has been noted before, people who buy the slab and not the card to some degree have made their own bed. But I would not be surprised if it gets messy and there is litigation.

I'm not sure what type of qualifying language they can use. If their business model is that they can examine a raw card and detect if it's been altered, but in practice they really do not have the ability to detect alterations, what will be their out? That if they miss the alteration entirely, they are not responsible?

That's kind of like a restaurant putting up a sign "if you eat our food, and it happens to contain poison, and you die from it, we are not responsible."

[benjulmag]

I'm not sure what type of qualifying language they can use. If their business model is that they can examine a raw card and detect if it's been altered, but in practice they really do not have the ability to detect alterations, what will be their out? That if they miss the alteration entirely, they are not responsible?

That's kind of like a restaurant putting up a sign "if you eat our food, and it happens to contain poison, and you die from it, we are not responsible."

I suspect if they add something it will because law enforcement will be all over them to do it. The bottom line is that IMO there is a scandal of epic proportions taking place, and likely some people will have serious criminal exposure. The eye at the center of this storm is PSA, as it is they who are slabbing these cards. It seems counterintuitive to me that this will all end without there being any change whatsoever in how PSA conducts its business and/or PSA having legal exposure of its own.

[barrysloate]

I suspect if they add something it will because law enforcement will be all over them to do it. The bottom line is that IMO there is a scandal of epic proportions taking place, and likely some people will have serious criminal exposure. The eye at the center of this storm is PSA, as it is they who are slabbing these cards. It seems counterintuitive to me that this will all end without there being any change whatsoever in how PSA conducts its business and/or PSA having legal exposure of its own.

I strongly hope you are right, but PSA's current position is that there is nothing to see here, just a minor blip on the radar screen, and if it weren't for a bunch of chronic complainers on a chatboard, this situation wouldn't even be worth mentioning.

[Leon]

But Leon, aren’t we awfully early in this for the FBI to be meting out punishment already? I know some think civil lawsuits should have happened already but as another poster articulately said, these things take time.

It wouldn't surprise me if we are several years away from closure. Who knows? I doubt this is a sprint nor should it be. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not sure what type of qualifying language they can use. If their business model is that they can examine a raw card and detect if it's been altered, but in practice they really do not have the ability to detect alterations, what will be their out? That if they miss the alteration entirely, they are not responsible?

That's kind of like a restaurant putting up a sign "if you eat our food, and it happens to contain poison, and you die from it, we are not responsible."

Even as we speak, they are directing people with altered cards to their sellers and trying to duck responsibility.

[Promethius88]

It wouldn't surprise me if we are several years away from closure. Who knows? I doubt this is a sprint nor should it be. :)

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

[barrysloate]

Even as we speak, they are directing people with altered cards to their sellers and trying to duck responsibility.

I know. And I assume they are being advised by counsel.

[tschock]

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

And do you think if there were charges, prosecution, and some verdict tomorrow it would impact that much? ;)

[Promethius88]

And do you think if there were charges, prosecution, and some verdict tomorrow it would impact that much? ;)

Hahaha, that actually made me chuckle out loud!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know. And I assume they are being advised by counsel.

I think it's engrained in their corporate culture. WIWAG all over again. Only now they have the Registry and the backing of a huge number of people with huge sums invested in slabs, and huge inventories of slabs. No wonder Sloan can not even mention the scandal in his talk, and tell people with altered cards to look to their sellers not PSA in spite of the plain language of the guarantee. A few malcontents who skipped the Kool Aid stirring up trouble.

[Johnny630]

PSA’s failure to take any responsibility in grading so many bad Altered cards will ultimately be the number one factor for them going under.
Staying on the Current Course they’re on now will turn out to be a big mistake in the long run for their business. I predict this will happen.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I think it's engrained in their corporate culture. WIWAG all over again. Only now they have the Registry and the backing of a huge number of people with huge sums invested in slabs, and huge inventories of slabs. No wonder Sloan can not even mention the scandal in his talk, and tell people with altered cards to look to their sellers not PSA in spite of the plain language of the guarantee. A few malcontents who skipped the Kool Aid stirring up trouble.

Agreed. It's truly astounding how they've managed to pull this off for so long with no major repercussions and even more amazing, I noticed their stock price is still on the increase. Is it just a big confidence scheme with slick marketing, aggressive and slick damage control with a low-cost, minimal-skill service?

Think about this. PSA was founded in 1991 before the internet took off. Hypothetically, let's say one founded the company with the mindset that it would be next to impossible for customers on a mass scale to measure or detect the quality of your service, then the exposure to "buy back" liability would be practically non-existent. Furthermore, what budget did they set aside annually to improve the quality for detecting alterations? Fast forward 15-20 years, where massive problems have been brought to light either by admissions of doctoring or by viewing "before and after" photos of doctored cards bought and sold - all through the internet. The fact the PSA has shown no effort to fix these problems over such a long period of time is very telling in my opinion and warrants answers from PSA regarding the intent of their business model and quality of service.

[barrysloate]

Agreed. It's truly astounding how they've managed to pull this off for so long with no major repercussions and even more amazing, I noticed their stock price is still on the increase. Is it just a big confidence scheme with slick marketing, aggressive and slick damage control with a low-cost, minimal-skill service?

Think about this. PSA was founded in 1991 before the internet took off. Hypothetically, let's say one founded the company with the mindset that it would be next to impossible for customers on a mass scale to measure or detect the quality of your service, then the exposure to "buy back" liability would be practically non-existent. Furthermore, what budget did they set aside annually to improve the quality for detecting alterations? Fast forward 15-20 years, where massive problems have been brought to light either by admissions of doctoring or by viewing "before and after" photos of doctored cards bought and sold - all through the internet. The fact the PSA has shown no effort to fix these problems over such a long period of time is very telling in my opinion and warrants answers from PSA regarding the intent of their business model and quality of service.

The reason this has gone on for so long is something we have said and repeated many times: they have an amazing ability to mint money for their clients. And as long as they continue on that path, who is going to challenge them? Customers who make money are happy customers.

They may not be very good at grading or authenticating, but they are geniuses when it comes to making a lot of money for a lot of people. And that is the reason for their continued success.

[Johnny630]

The reason this has gone on for so long is something we have said and repeated many times: they have an amazing ability to mint money for their clients. And as long as they continue on that path, who is going to challenge them? Customers who make money are happy customers.

They may not be very good at grading or authenticating, but they are geniuses when it comes to making a lot of money for a lot of people. And that is the reason for their continued success.

Well said and bottom line !

[steve B]

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

Either you or Leon could fix that for you... I hear the Kool aid is better over on the CU boards, so I would suggest that for you.

[kateighty]

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

Pretty much. Pay attention to the childish behavior from the top down. Leon accused someone else as being me and starting a new account in disguise. Absolute BS. Like WTF?

Pre-war cards are my passion and I'm still waiting for an apology call Leon. When the leader here can't say sorry, that's a problem. And a major one. Might be time for someone to take over this board.

[CuriousGeorge]

Is this really still going on? Really? There has to be a therapist in Florida or DC who can help you get over this atrocity already no?

Pre-war cards are my passion and I'm still waiting for an apology call Leon. When the leader here can't say sorry, that's a problem. And a major one. Might be time for someone to take over this board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oust Leon!!

[kateighty]

Is this really still going on? Really? There has to be a therapist in Florida or DC who can help you get over this atrocity already no?

Oh dear Steve (Jeff) Lichtman. If anyone needs a therapist you can damn well bet it's you and your "brother" don't turn it on me. You can't even get my name right.

[kateighty]

Oust Leon!!

Damn straight. I'm here with the rest of you and love this old school baseball shit. Honestly having low level tardwad whose brother represented El Chapo coming after me ain't cool. Nor should it be allowed here. Beyond insulting.

[CuriousGeorge]

Rachel should be showing up aaaaaaaany minute

[kateighty]

Rachel should be showing up aaaaaaaany minute

Really dude?

[kateighty]

Rachel should be showing up aaaaaaaany minute

Probably because you're Rachel. I don't know who the hell she is and I've been a member here for many years. The second you posted that I was ousted from net54. I was straight up blocked and prevented from accessing the site. Bizarre that it happened right after you posted. Hmmm.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steven please stop controlling the site.

[frankbmd]

Damn straight. I'm here with the rest of you and love this old school baseball shit. Honestly having low level tardwad whose brother represented El Chapo coming after me ain't cool. Nor should it be allowed here. Beyond insulting.

I’ve always considered myself a high level tardwad and don’t worry, I am not coming after you.;)

[Just.Rachel]

Rachel should be showing up aaaaaaaany minute

Hi.

Probably because you're Rachel. I don't know who the hell she is and I've been a member here for many years. The second you posted that I was ousted from net54. I was straight up blocked and prevented from accessing the site. Bizarre that it happened right after you posted. Hmmm.

Ummm, could you two please leave me out of your little quarrel or whatever you've got going on?

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

It seems this comment is applicable to a few topics, haha.






Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[WhenItWasAHobby]

If this has been posted before, my apologies.

There was a PSA article published in 2004 by Joe Orlando entitled "Whack Jobs". Not surprisingly, PSA deleted this from their website very recently. In the article Orlando states the following (my bold and underlined letters for emphasis):

Taking My Hacks: Whack Jobs – The Issue of Card Trimming

Joe Orlando - January 20, 2004

Trimming. To card collectors around the globe, this is treated like a four-letter word -- the really bad kind. No, I am not talking about what should be done to my Aunt Gertrude's mustache or to the back of one of my best friends (just kidding, I don't have an Aunt Gertrude). I am talking about card doctoring.

What is trimming exactly?

Well, in a nutshell, it's what some people do in order to enhance the edges or corners on a card. This, in turn, will enhance the overall grade of the card. With the prices realized for ultra high-end cards, it's no wonder that some people lower themselves to try this. These guys smell money like a Great White smells blood.

Back in the day, trimming was a bit more crude. Despite what many would consider obvious today, the old school brand of trimming did work for a while before the advent of grading. I can still remember seeing these severely whacked cards at card shows and commenting to a dealer, "Are there such things as 1954 Topps minis?" After PSA really caught on by the mid-1990s, many of the more prominent card doctors vanished.

Today, there are those who are still trying it. Some of them are butchers and some of them are master artists, but it doesn't, in any way, change the approach of PSA graders. The tools have changed in some cases and the skill level of the whackers has heightened but so has the awareness of our experts -- that's what they are paid to do -- and that's why people have so much faith in the PSA process.

The biggest point of confusion with trimming comes when a collector notices a card that is slightly undersized -- even in the PSA holder. I hear the cries, "That card looks small, it must be trimmed -- trimmed I say!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Is size one factor that may tip off a grader that a card could be altered? Of course -- but size alone, in this case, does not matter.

I can remember opening vending cases from the early 1970s where the cards came in a variety of sizes. Pre-war cards, especially, were cut very inconsistently. To most, the size differences are subtle but when placed in a holder, the card's size is more apparent. My point here is simple. Cards can come in different sizes straight from the factory -- straight out of the pack -- straight from a vending case. Experienced hobbyists know this but many do not.

There are more important questions when attempting to spot trimming.

Do the corners flare out or dive in unnaturally?
Is there solid consistency to the stock and/or grain of the card?
Is the cut consistent with the year or issue?
Is the card cut from a sheet?
Do the edges possess an unorthodox waviness?
These factors, amongst other things, enter into the mind of each grader as a card is evaluated and graded. Does the size matter too? Sure it does, but that is not the most important factor that a grader considers. Technically, you could have an oversized card that is trimmed or a severely undersized card that is unaltered. These are extreme cases but actually plausible scenarios.

Just as in the everyday world of criminal justice, it's up to the authorities to keep up with or stay a step ahead of the criminals in order to prevent crime and catch them. As the world's sportscard grading authority, we take the same approach and will accept nothing less from our staff.

Dead link: https://www.psacard.com/…/taking-my-hacks-whack-jobs-issue-

Captured link:https://www.facebook.com/SportsCardRadio/posts/psa-deletes-2004-card-trimming-article-from-its-website-here-is-the-full-article/10156614815279007/





Most recently Orlando published this article:

Taking My Hacks
A Collectors Universe Retrospective
Joe Orlando

In June of this year, Collectors Universe reached a major milestone. PCGS, our coin division, and PSA combined for 75 million total items certified since inception. After a lot of hard work put in by a host of different people, early struggles to gain acceptance and through many ups and downs in the market, the company eclipsed this truly remarkable number recently.

In addition to being three quarters of the way to 100 million, this summer marks my 20th year at the company. In fact, August makes it 20 years exactly. It seems like yesterday that I was just starting out, fresh out of school and taking a chance by working in a hobby I had loved since childhood. I am fortunate to work for a company I have believed in since I was a customer in the early 1990s.

After passing this recent milestone and approaching my 20-year anniversary, it seemed fitting to reflect on my experience and share it with you.

When I first came upon PSA and Collectors Universe, I didn't become a supporter because I thought the system was perfect or because I agreed with every grade I saw. In fact, I can remember writing a letter to PSA, sharing my concerns about grading at the time. I became a supporter because it was clear the market was so much better with third-party authentication and grading than without it.

Today, I'm the president and CEO of PSA's parent company and I don't agree with every card, autograph or bat grade issued ... and that's OK. As a collector, I don't have to. Why? Because I don't have to buy it. We have choices, which is part of what makes collecting so much fun. As an individual, I am entitled to an opinion too and it's OK if my personal standard differs from a third-party service. Their job isn't to confirm my opinion; it's to render their own.

Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways of making it better. Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.

If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.

The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way, or get left behind with delusions that somehow returning to the Wild West of the 1980s is better than what collectors have today. If you prefer to collect raw cards, that's OK. There are many ways to enjoy our wonderful hobby.

In the meantime, the beat goes on. After 20 years at the company and a lifetime in this hobby, there are a few things I know. There will always be challenges that our hobby will have to face and, unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance. For those of us who love the hobby, there will always be opportunities to improve it by engaging in civil discourse.

More importantly, third-party authentication and grading is here to stay. It makes the hobby better, even though no system will ever be perfect.

Never get cheated,

Joe Orlando

Joe Orlando
President & CEO
Collectors Universe, Inc.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/articleview/9922/taking-my-hacks-collectors-universe-retrospective

See the difference?

[CuriousGeorge]

Thanks very much for that Dan.

[barrysloate]

Another slap in the face to the collecting community.

PSA's clients have every right to expect as close to perfection as possible. Saying we're human and we can never get it right every time does not even consider the frequency that altered cards are being slabbed. Many collectors send them thousands of dollars to have their cards reviewed, and spend a whole lot more than that to purchase high end ones. And they don't even have the decency to admit that they need to do a whole lot better. What a dreadful response.

I could go on and on but I won't.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Thanks very much for that Dan.

My pleasure Steven!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The best part which you didn't highlight was the invitation to civil discourse. As in, poof?

[Johnny630]

The above most recent statements from Orlando only embolden the card doctors to continue their acts. They openly set up or walk the floor of every major show with no shame.

[Rhotchkiss]

Dan, really great post. Hint, hint, hint:

I really think it is worthy of its own new thread, with a sexy and catchy title (like PSA removes old damning articles, or something), so the topic gets more eyeballs (including maybe press), and is not lost in a longer, older thread people may no longer follow.

Just my opinion...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

The best part which you didn't highlight was the invitation to civil discourse. As in, poof?

Ouch Peter! You're right! How did I miss that zinger!?!?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Dan, really great post. Hint, hint, hint:

I really think it is worthy of its own new thread, with a sexy and catchy title (like PSA removes old damning articles, or something), so the topic gets more eyeballs (including maybe press), and is not lost in a longer, older thread people may no longer follow.

Just my opinion...

Done.

[Fuddjcal]

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

we can only hope:D:D:D and more POps