I totally forgot PWCC had an auction ending tonight

[Rhotchkiss]

A buddy just texted me that “prices seemed soft”. I had no idea what he was talking about until he reminded me that a PWCC auction was ending tonight. I remembered that an auction had started a few days ago, but I did not follow a single lot and had no idea it was closing tonight. Anyone else take this one off?

[Throttlesteer]

I watched to see if there was any impact. I disagree with your buddy. Prices seemed just as silly as usual (e.g. $4k for a PSA 5 T206 Speaker). There are plenty who still want to buy from PWCC.

[scooter729]

I've been following some of the sales, and haven't seen too much softness in the ones I've been looking at. I may not be looking at all the cards, but the handful I wanted to watch were coming in close to, if not higher than, recent prior sales.

[Johnny630]

Business as usual the beat goes on....

[Rhotchkiss]

Well, soft or not, I didn’t bid. Hell, I totally forgot an auction was ending. Probably the first time in 3-4 years I didn’t bid on something. I have to imagine I am not the only one.

[PiratesWS1979]

I watched to see if there was any impact. I disagree with your buddy. Prices seemed just as silly as usual (e.g. $4k for a PSA 5 T206 Speaker). There are plenty who still want to buy from PWCC.


But the Speaker had EXTREMELY LARGE borders. Hopefully PSA and SGC keeps a file on that card.

[Steve D]

Well, I was just finally able to pick up a T202 Wood/Speaker, Speaker Rounding Third, after years of searching and being outbid.

:)
Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Never again.

[Throttlesteer]

But the Speaker had EXTREMELY LARGE borders. Hopefully PSA and SGC keeps a file on that card.

True and agree. It's a nice card that maybe should have grabbed $2-2500.

[oldjudge]

Never again.

+1

[frankbmd]

I didn’t look.

I didn’t bid.

I didn’t forget.

No regrets.

[bounce]

there's some of everything. a few of the items mentioned were strong. the ruth and gehrig goudeys seemed pretty strong as well.

however, i'd say the matty portraits were definitely lower than they'd been and those cards were nice. johnson pitching was probably disappointing to the consignor, and the young portraits weren't crazy. even a couple of the cobbs seemed somewhat reasonable to me.

it's only one night, but so far it's not records across the board like had been going on for the past two years or more. will be interesting to see what happens as the auction continues.

[Bicem]

No thanks, too many better places to get stuff.

[irv]

I haven't bid in any of their auctions now for 2 years and have zero future plans of doing so.

[Vintageclout]

Soft? I Don’t think so....

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb - $15K
PSA 4.5 Cobb Bat Off - $6K
PSA 4.5 Red Cobb - $5.8K
SGC 5 #144 Goudey Ruth - $10.6K
PSA 5 Brunner’s Young - Nearly $6K
PSA 4 M116 Wagner - $4.7K
PSA 5 T206 Speaker - Nearly $4K
PSA 5 US Caramel Gehrig - $6.1K

Just a few examples of strong pricing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To my eye the Caramel Gehrig was really white.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-U-S-Caramel-Lou-Gehrig-26-SGC-5-EX-PWCC-S-/401805021041?hash=item5d8d720f71%3Ag%3AGQEAAOSwJ1x dHlOu&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This natural beauty boasts an overall cleanliness not normally seen on the issue with virtually zero product toning present.

Maybe.

Why are we seeing all these super bright cards slabbed by S_C recently?

[chalupacollects]

Well, soft or not, I didn’t bid. Hell, I totally forgot an auction was ending. Probably the first time in 3-4 years I didn’t bid on something. I have to imagine I am not the only one.

The therapy is working? :D

[Kingcobb]

Prices were pretty strong PSA 4 commons averaging 120 5's close to 200 +. HOFer's were ridiculous.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Business as usual the beat goes on....

yep dont know why poeple say they arent bidding...when prices speak for themselves...

[ullmandds]

To my eye the Caramel Gehrig was really white.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-U-S-Caramel-Lou-Gehrig-26-SGC-5-EX-PWCC-S-/401805021041?hash=item5d8d720f71%3Ag%3AGQEAAOSwJ1x dHlOu&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This natural beauty boasts an overall cleanliness not normally seen on the issue with virtually zero product toning present.

Maybe.

Why are we seeing all these super bright cards slabbed by S_C recently?

I don't think there's any question that gehrig's been chemically bathed/bleached!

[Rhotchkiss]

I have not looked at the prices/checked the auction, but it sounds like I got some bad info that prices were soft (the Speaker sounds silly). That said, I watched True Romance (great movie - classic) with my wife last night and was not checking the phone every 3 minutes like I had done many times over in the past. And it was great! Yes, the therapy is working.

Between Heritage, REA, Memory Lane (sick auction coming up BTW), LOTG, Mile High, Brockelman, Sterling, Goldin, SCP, Baggers, etc etc., not to mention regular shows in Chantilly and Philly and maybe the national (or white plains), I have plenty of options and opportunities.

So, for the foreseeable future, PWCC is not an option for me. And, for now, I will ignore their sales on VCP as comps.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I don't think there's any question that gehrig's been chemically bathed/bleached!

so if someone bought this card thinking it was bleached (bought the card not the holder) and was very confidant that it was like you, are they a future victim if there is more evidence of it..

[ullmandds]

so if someone bought this card thinking it was bleached (bought the card not the holder) and was very confidant that it was like you, are they a future victim if there is more evidence of it..

im not following your "thought" process?

[1952boyntoncollector]

If someone stated on net54, i bought that card, and i KNOW it was bleached but i bought it anyway, and 2 months later there is a photo of the card 3 grades lower that sold 2 months prior to the purchaser that bought the card

are they avictim even though they KNOW it was bleached/altered when they bought (and posted admission of such on net54) the card and now want to use the PSA guarantee or whatever its called or ask for money back for PWCC...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think there's any question that gehrig's been chemically bathed/bleached!

This is the third or fourth such card we've seen recently in an S_C holder that looked (to my eye) way too white. I don't know what's going on. A card that white, or as white as that Leaf Jackie was, should raise red flags.

[Republicaninmass]

To my eye the Caramel Gehrig was really white.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-U-S-Caramel-Lou-Gehrig-26-SGC-5-EX-PWCC-S-/401805021041?hash=item5d8d720f71%3Ag%3AGQEAAOSwJ1x dHlOu&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This natural beauty boasts an overall cleanliness not normally seen on the issue with virtually zero product toning present.

Maybe.

Why are we seeing all these super bright cards slabbed by S_C recently?


I see what you did there, no more G in SGC

[Republicaninmass]

But the Speaker had EXTREMELY LARGE borders. Hopefully PSA and SGC keeps a file on that card.


Before Moser takes a file to it

[ullmandds]

This is the third or fourth such card we've seen recently in an S_C holder that looked (to my eye) way too white. I don't know what's going on. A card that white, or as white as that Leaf Jackie was, should raise red flags.

Sadly I think the reality is that some alterations are not detectable...atleast not with current techniques used by SGC/PSA/Beckett.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sadly I think the reality is that some alterations are not detectable...atleast not with current techniques used by SGC/PSA/Beckett.

How is it not detectable, you and I see it plain as day.

[ullmandds]

How is it not detectable, you and I see it plain as day.

I dunno how to answer that, Pete????? Borders on 85 year old cardboard just aren't that white in nature...only after treated not to mention the white speckles throughout the background.

[bnorth]

How is it not detectable, you and I see it plain as day.

Are you being paid not to see it?:eek:

[Snapolit1]

Peter - please cease from being so cynical. This card looks exactly what I'd imagine a card that was sitting in the bottom of a candy box many decades ago would look like. Pristine blinding white. Snow white. White as the rice I am enjoyng for lunch.


To my eye the Caramel Gehrig was really white.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-U-S-Caramel-Lou-Gehrig-26-SGC-5-EX-PWCC-S-/401805021041?hash=item5d8d720f71%3Ag%3AGQEAAOSwJ1x dHlOu&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This natural beauty boasts an overall cleanliness not normally seen on the issue with virtually zero product toning present.

Maybe.

Why are we seeing all these super bright cards slabbed by S_C recently?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I dunno how to answer that, Pete????? Borders on 85 year old cardboard just aren't that white in nature...only after treated not to mention the white speckles throughout the background.

That issue is notorious for toning. Even Brent notes, without a trace of irony, how unusually white it is. LOL.

[topcat61]

I've been following some of the sales, and haven't seen too much softness in the ones I've been looking at. I may not be looking at all the cards, but the handful I wanted to watch were coming in close to, if not higher than, recent prior sales.

Why would anyone want to continue doing business with this company? Certainly not on the level in any way, shape or form. I check the bids of PWCC's cards and check the % the bidder has had with them.

[bnorth]

That issue is notorious for toning. Even Brent notes, without a trace of irony, how unusually white it is. LOL.

Just snowballing here, maybe he uses those type of descriptions as a code. His "real" friends know that means STAY FAR AWAY.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why would anyone want to continue doing business with this company? Certainly not on the level in any way, shape or form. I check the bids of PWCC's cards and check the % the bidder has had with them.

Because they are selling cards people want.

[BeanTown]

Never again.

+1

They will slowly lose legit buyers and consignors. They will be forced to stop doing unethical money making practices. The once all mighty eBay seller known as PWCC, will become an after thought within two years.

[bobbyw8469]

+1

They will slowly lose legit buyers and consignors. They will be forced to stop doing unethical money making practices. The once all mighty eBay seller known as PWCC, will become an after thought within two years.

Same thing happened to GlacierBayDVD. And JayandMarie1centCDs. They were both considered too big to fail. They both crumbled.

[RedsFan1941]

Why would anyone want to continue doing business with this company? Certainly not on the level in any way, shape or form. I check the bids of PWCC's cards and check the % the bidder has had with them.

where else are you going to get a brown lenox?

[perezfan]

+1

They will slowly lose legit buyers and consignors. They will be forced to stop doing unethical money making practices. The once all mighty eBay seller known as PWCC, will become an after thought within two years.

Hopefully this will be the case. But the fact that prices are still very strong indicates that word of the scandal has not spread beyond Net54 and BO. It really demonstrates how many collectors there are who do not frequent these forums.

I know that many (less vocal) people here are probably still buying from PWCC because they want "the stuff"... but a big chunk here is not. And the boycotters are barely impacting prices realized (if at all). So until the word somehow reaches a larger audience, we might not see PWCC's demise anytime soon.

The best short-term opportunity for increasing exposure is obviously at The National. Hopefully, something will happen in Chicago, which will reveal their corruption to a greater audience. Otherwise we're likely in for more of the same deception.

[irv]

I don't think there's any question that gehrig's been chemically bathed/bleached!

This is the third or fourth such card we've seen recently in an S_C holder that looked (to my eye) way too white. I don't know what's going on. A card that white, or as white as that Leaf Jackie was, should raise red flags.

Sadly I think the reality is that some alterations are not detectable...atleast not with current techniques used by SGC/PSA/Beckett.

How is it not detectable, you and I see it plain as day.

Like I mentioned to Swarmee in another thread, if there is no way to detect the bleach/chemicals, how can they reject it?

I agree it is definitely suspect but if there is no, 100% proof, that it has seen a chemical bath, then their hands are tied.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Like I mentioned to Swarmee in another thread, if there is no way to detect the bleach/chemicals, how can they reject it?

I agree it is definitely suspect but if there is no, 100% proof, that it has seen a chemical bath, then their hands are tied.

Cards get rejected for EVIDENCE of trimming, etc., there is no 100 percent proof standard, don't know where you are coming up with that. The human eye is probably the best evidence in any event. That's how most alterations are detected. Do you think they're putting cards through lab tests?

[packs]

Lets say a card is bleached, will it disintegrate over time? What are you left with in 20 years?

[pokerplyr80]

Cards get rejected for EVIDENCE of trimming, etc., there is no 100 percent proof standard, don't know where you are coming up with that. The human eye is probably the best evidence in any event. That's how most alterations are detected. Do you think they're putting cards through lab tests?

What are you suggesting then? If a vintage card looks too clean it shouldn't be graded because it was probably bleached? I'm not sure how this could be detected without some kind of forensic test, and don't think a card should be rejected without some kind of evidence that it was, or probably was altered.

Looking too clean or white is not enough evidence in my opinion for a TPG to reject a card.

[trambo]

I bid on 2 t205's last night in the PWCC. I bid accordingly to what I thought they were worth and used a snipe program to do the bidding. I lost both auctions.

Auction 1 was the same card listed and sold by PWCC in February (same PSA cert on the card). Of the bids by the winning bidder in all auctions, 66% of their bids were for PWCC auctions.

Auction 2-new item. Of the bids by the winning bidder in all auctions, 41% of their bids were for PWCC auctions.

The above tells me that at least auction 1 was a shill bid but most likely both were.

I wasn't too broken up that I didn't win the cards (ok..not broken up at all) but it crystallized my opinion of the shady tactics PWCC employs. Nothing to do here really but stay away from PWCC auctions as many have said. I'm sure this sort of thing has been posted more than once but thought my first hand experience may help someone even if it's buried on this thread.

[drcy]

Peter - please cease from being so cynical. This card looks exactly what I'd imagine a card that was sitting in the bottom of a candy box many decades ago would look like. Pristine blinding white. Snow white. White as the rice I am enjoyng for lunch.

A rule of thumb is to avoid Pre-War baseball cards you can read in the dark by.

[irv]

Cards get rejected for EVIDENCE of trimming, etc., there is no 100 percent proof standard, don't know where you are coming up with that. The human eye is probably the best evidence in any event. That's how most alterations are detected. Do you think they're putting cards through lab tests?

What are you suggesting then? If a vintage card looks too clean it shouldn't be graded because it was probably bleached? I'm not sure how this could be detected without some kind of forensic test, and don't think a card should be rejected without some kind of evidence that it was, or probably was altered.

Looking too clean or white is not enough evidence in my opinion for a TPG to reject a card.

What Jesse says, Peter.
With trimming, one can compare to other cards or look for the telltale signs. Coloring is the same, tilt the card (if it's that easy?)

A clean card that was put away between pgs or out of the light altogether since new, I am sure would still be fairly clean, no?

Trust me, I'm as pissed as you are about this whole scandal and I am not trying to defend anyone here, but if the bleach and/or chemicals are not detectable how can a TPG reject the card based on them assuming the card is too clean looking?

[Peter_Spaeth]

What Jesse says, Peter.
With trimming, one can compare to other cards or look for the telltale signs. Coloring is the same, tilt the card (if it's that easy?)

A clean card that was put away between pgs or out of the light altogether since new, I am sure would still be fairly clean, no?

Trust me, I'm as pissed as you are about this whole scandal and I am not trying to defend anyone here, but if the bleach and/or chemicals are not detectable how can a TPG reject the card based on them assuming the card is too clean looking?

Do you need a lab test to tell you if someone is probably drunk, Dale?
And why is it these cleaned cards all seem to be S_C?

[Bugsy]

What Jesse says, Peter.
With trimming, one can compare to other cards or look for the telltale signs. Coloring is the same, tilt the card (if it's that easy?)

A clean card that was put away between pgs or out of the light altogether since new, I am sure would still be fairly clean, no?

Trust me, I'm as pissed as you are about this whole scandal and I am not trying to defend anyone here, but if the bleach and/or chemicals are not detectable how can a TPG reject the card based on them assuming the card is too clean looking?

Bleached cards will often illuminate under a black light.

[Steve D]

What are you suggesting then? If a vintage card looks too clean it shouldn't be graded because it was probably bleached? I'm not sure how this could be detected without some kind of forensic test, and don't think a card should be rejected without some kind of evidence that it was, or probably was altered.

Looking too clean or white is not enough evidence in my opinion for a TPG to reject a card.


If that were the case (rejecting cards that are "too clean"), the Black Swamp find, for one, would have never been graded.

Steve

[ullmandds]

If that were the case (rejecting cards that are "too clean"), the Black Swamp find, for one, would have never been graded.

Steve

BSF cards were stored in paper practically from the time they were made and still did not have SNOW WHITE borders like the gehrig...or other bleached cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

BSF cards were stored in paper practically from the time they were made and still did not have SNOW WHITE borders like the gehrig...or other bleached cards.

Plus there was provenance explaining the BSF cards.

[Throttlesteer]

One other possibility is to manipulate the scans to make the borders or colors brighter. I'm not saying that bleach was or wasn't used, but it's another way to make the card look good for prospective bidders.

[deadballera]

picked up a couple of T206's last night.

It seemed that prices were lower than what they normally go for. I personally thought some of the lower prices were due to Gavelsnipe not working.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One other possibility is to manipulate the scans to make the borders or colors brighter. I'm not saying that bleach was or wasn't used, but it's another way to make the card look good for prospective bidders.

Read the description which I quoted.

[Throttlesteer]

I did. It references clean, free of toning. But. It doesnt necessarily negate my comment. A quick Google of 1932 US Caramels shows several old PSA examples with similar borders. Again, I'm not claiming it wasnt bleached, but I'm not as sure about this one as some.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I did. It references clean, free of toning. But. It doesnt necessarily negate my comment.

PWCC stickered card, US Caramel described as free of toning or nearly so, plus scan that is blinding white. I'll rely on my experience and common sense here, do as you wish.

[RedsFan1941]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

[bnorth]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

It is seriously puzzling but with all the ethical questions I have seen posted over the years I am not surprised. The bright side is some very unethical people are honest about it.:D

[Steve D]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.


Here's why I choose to continue to bid with PWCC:

I live in an area (South-Central Texas), where the closest card show occurs twice a year, and is 200 miles away. I am dealing with chronic medical/physical issues that mean I'm no longer able to travel that far. I'm also not able to walk very far without difficulty.

That leaves ebay and auction houses as my only resource for adding to my collection. Believe me, I look all over for the cards I want (including the BST Forum here), and for the most part, PWCC is one of the very few that seem to get what I'm wanting.

I have always been a "Buy the card, and not the holder!" person. A large amount of the time, I disregard a card on my wantlist even though it is in the grade I want; because it doesn't have the "eye-appeal" I'm looking for, or the seller doesn't provide large enough front/back scans. I carefully examine every card I consider buying.

I totally understand everyone's feelings about the current issues; I tend to agree with them. I do not feel, however, that I can simply disregard PWCC (or anyone else) out-of-hand, if I want to continue collecting.

Steve

[Kenny Cole]

Here's why I choose to continue to bid with PWCC:

I live in an area (South-Central Texas), where the closest card show occurs twice a year, and is 200 miles away. I am dealing with chronic medical/physical issues that mean I'm no longer able to travel that far. I'm also not able to walk very far without difficulty.

That leaves ebay and auction houses as my only resource for adding to my collection. Believe me, I look all over for the cards I want (including the BST Forum here), and for the most part, PWCC is one of the very few that seem to get what I'm wanting.

I have always been a "Buy the card, and not the holder!" person. A large amount of the time, I disregard a card on my wantlist even though it is in the grade I want; because it doesn't have the "eye-appeal" I'm looking for, or the seller doesn't provide large enough front/back scans. I carefully examine every card I consider buying.

I totally understand everyone's feelings about the current issues; I tend to agree with them. I do not feel, however, that I can simply disregard PWCC (or anyone else) out-of-hand, if I want to continue collecting.

Steve

I respectfully suggest that you are exactly the type of prey PWCC is looking for. If you choose to do that after all that has been said here, good luck to you. I personally think you are making a huge mistake, but everyone is entitled to make his or her own decision. I hope that it works out for you.

[bounce]

Soft? I Don’t think so....

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb - $15K
PSA 4.5 Cobb Bat Off - $6K
PSA 4.5 Red Cobb - $5.8K
SGC 5 #144 Goudey Ruth - $10.6K
PSA 5 Brunner’s Young - Nearly $6K
PSA 4 M116 Wagner - $4.7K
PSA 5 T206 Speaker - Nearly $4K
PSA 5 US Caramel Gehrig - $6.1K

Just a few examples of strong pricing.

SGC 6.5 Wajo pitching - $4.1k
PSA 2.5 Matty portrait - $1k
PSA 4.5 Matty portrait - $2k
PSA 6 Matty dark cap - $3.2k
PSA 4 Cy Young portrait - $2.3k

Just a few examples of not strong pricing.

And either way, strong or not, they’re going to hit VCP.

[bounce]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

Lots of focus on the bidders, but what about the consignors? Isn’t that really where it starts? Takes both to tango, but surely all the PWCC consignors aren’t scam artists?

Just pointing out there are multiple facets to this whole situation.

[Kenny Cole]

Lots of focus on the bidders, but what about the consignors? Isn’t that really where it starts? Takes both to tango, but surely all the PWCC consignors aren’t scam artists?

Just pointing out there are multiple facets to this whole situation.

At this point, I don't which are and which aren't. But I damn sure know some are scammers. That, in and of itself, is enough for me to say I'm out. Maybe I will miss some cards on my want list that are actually good. But I have no confidence that is true at this point. So I will take a hard pass on that. I can wait.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They have a card I've been looking for for a long time, a 1969 Topps Super Bob Gibson. I know the card is good because nobody trims a 1969 card with huge rounded corners lol. So it goes. Pass.

[Kenny Cole]

They have a card I've been looking for for a long time, a 1969 Topps Super Bob Gibson. I know the card is good because nobody trims a 1969 card with huge rounded corners lol. So it goes. Pass.

Right thing to do IMO, but it still sucks massively. I get it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So not to change topics but some of you know I've been working behind the scenes. Does anyone know for a certainty that the FBI or other law enforcement is involved? This info isn't for publication and you won't be quoted. It is just to satisfy some people who need to be careful what gets said for obvious reasons. Please PM me if you have knowledge (not conjecture) to share.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So not to change topics but some of you know I've been working behind the scenes. Does anyone know for a certainty that the FBI or other law enforcement is involved? This info isn't for publication and you won't be quoted. It is just to satisfy some people who need to be careful what gets said for obvious reasons. Please PM me if you have knowledge (not conjecture) to share.

Good luck.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just curious when this whole matter ends up on "American Greed".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right thing to do IMO, but it still sucks massively. I get it.

It sucks worse that he does what he does.

[Kenny Cole]

It sucks worse that he does what he does.

True dat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

True dat.

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

[Kenny Cole]

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

You are preaching to the choir. Much as it hurts me, 100% agree. :) Complete bullshit and pretty much a character reveal, as if one was needed.

[Johnny630]

Am I the only one who thinks PWCC's business will be legally fine?

Sure a Black Eye buy Guys Who Collect but I don't see a slow down in their volume of consigned cards coming to auction.... looks to be fine to me.... every auction is loaded surely they all can't be bad.

[Rhotchkiss]

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

That was the nail in the coffin for me.

[Bugsy]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

That is exactly how I feel. Everyone is outraged about cards being doctored, but even people posting in these threads continue to support PWCC.

[Fuddjcal]

Soft? I Don’t think so....

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb - $15K
PSA 4.5 Cobb Bat Off - $6K
PSA 4.5 Red Cobb - $5.8K
SGC 5 #144 Goudey Ruth - $10.6K
PSA 5 Brunner’s Young - Nearly $6K
PSA 4 M116 Wagner - $4.7K
PSA 5 T206 Speaker - Nearly $4K
PSA 5 US Caramel Gehrig - $6.1K

Just a few examples of strong pricing.

Just a few examples of fakes

[Peter_Spaeth]

If indeed PWCC has stopped taking Gary's cards, I wonder who he has found?

[Leon]

If indeed PWCC has stopped taking Gary's cards, I wonder who he has found?

Investors

[Peter_Spaeth]

Investors

Yeah he could set up a website and just sell direct. Or sell on ebay, or Facebook.

[scotgreb]

"I don't go to bed with no whore, and I don't wake up with no whore. That's how I live with myself. What about you?" -- Carl Fox (Martin Sheen) from the movie Wall Street.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[drcy]

"I don't go to bed with no whore, and I don't wake up with no whore. That's how I live with myself. What about you?" -- Carl Fox (Martin Sheen) from the movie Wall Street.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Reminds me of of a joke told to me by an Englishman:

Two men are getting shaves side by side at the barber shop. The barber starts to apply aftershave to one man and the man says "Whew! Don't that on me. My wife will think I went to a brothel!" The other man getting a shave says "You can use it on me. My wife doesn't know what a brothel smells like."

[topcat61]

Do you need a lab test to tell you if someone is probably drunk, Dale?
And why is it these cleaned cards all seem to be S_C?

Bleach is easy enough to detect with a black light and a little common sense. I've notices quite a few auctions where their card's borders are a little too clean and crisp. Anyway, Auction Houses have sold stolen, altered and forged material before and only come clean when the get busted.

In Boston the state house has been pilfered several times and in one case, the state's charter was found at auction. In another case, Walter Johnson's Opening Day baseballs signed by presidents were stolen from the Hall and found in a Ron Oscer Auction.

What could cut this in half is if the grading companies took more that 60 seconds to review their items. Grading companies are opinion makers based on what? We don't know who they are or if they have a background in document forensics to adequately determine if what they're handling hasn't been tampered with?

They started adding brightening compounds to bleach in the mid 1950's and this I suspect could dissipate with time but brighteners added to paper stock in the 1940's doesn't. You could do a test and see how long it takes?

As they say, work smarter, not harder for the things that you want. Card collecting is and should be fun but it also requires some research, and if you dont know something, ask questions -there's no such thing as a stupid question. We're all here for the same goals and to help.

[perezfan]

Bleach is easy enough to detect with a black light and a little common sense. I've notices quite a few auctions where their card's borders are a little too clean and crisp. Anyway, Auction Houses have sold stolen, altered and forged material before and only come clean when the get busted.

In Boston the state house has been pilfered several times and in one case, the state's charter was found at auction. In another case, Walter Johnson's Opening Day baseballs signed by presidents were stolen from the Hall and found in a Ron Oscer Auction.

What could cut this in half is if the grading companies took more that 60 seconds to review their items. Grading companies are opinion makers based on what? We don't know who they are or if they have a background in document forensics to adequately determine if what they're handling hasn't been tampered with?

They started adding brightening compounds to bleach in the mid 1950's and this I suspect could dissipate with time but brighteners added to paper stock in the 1940's doesn't. You could do a test and see how long it takes?

As they say, work smarter, not harder for the things that you want. Card collecting is and should be fun but it also requires some research, and if you dont know something, ask questions -there's no such thing as a stupid question. We're all here for the same goals and to help.

Responding to the portion in bold...

They are purely "self-appointed" experts, and have no credentials to speak of (aside from what they claim, in order to garner the most profits). It's a scam that people have mindlessly bought into, hook, line and sinker.

Realizing it is not purposeful to complain without proposing a potential solution...

Perhaps someday there could be an independent agency that would certify Professional Graders after they pass enough seminars, courses or tests to qualify. They would subsequently earn a degree of sorts. An important aspect of this would be to ensure PSA has no involvement in the certification process. Their is ample evidence that they cannot be trusted, and that their intervention would taint the entire process.

So the Certification Entity could not be the PSA School of Authentication (or Beckett or SGC, for that matter).

Would it be profitable, or even a good business venture? Probably not.

Would it benefit the hobby? Definitely

[MULLINS5]

If I ever buy a graded card again I'll first research it to see if PWCC had it in their possession at any point. If so, I'll pass. Reality, though, I may never buy a graded card again and I've been a strong supporter for the past 20 years.

[Stampsfan]

Well, soft or not, I didn’t bid. Hell, I totally forgot an auction was ending. Probably the first time in 3-4 years I didn’t bid on something. I have to imagine I am not the only one.

You're not.

[Rhotchkiss]

I noticed another auction started. While I am still not bidding, naturally I am super curious, on many levels, about what’s in the auction and how it shakes out. Aside from a PSA 7 red Cobb (that’s not a suspect occurrence in a pwcc auction...) and the e105 CY young, which is beast and something I would totally bid on otherwise, I think the pre-1920/pre-war T and E offerings (like the last auction) are fairly weak, compared to prior auctions. I will be tracking this auction with interest.

What do you think of the auction? I think perhaps this whole mess is impacting PWCC as far as the pre-war T, E, and D (“TED”) cards are concerned.

No lawsuits or criminal charges (yet), but us consumers and consignors do have a voice through buying and selling habits/decisions.

One thing I notice is that it’s often only the higher graded, stud HOF cards that get the special PWCC stickers- do we really need a sticker to tell us a 7 has good eye appeal?!?!

[swarmee]

One thing I notice is that it’s often only the higher graded, stud HOF cards that get the special PWCC stickers- do we really need a sticker to tell us a 7 has good eye appeal?!?!
Those stickers have shown us over time that they're the best chances to be altered by many of the vintage scam artists revealed in the last six months. Those are Brent's beaconing device to tell you these cards are most likely trimmed/bleached/recolored and soon to be returned for a full refund and upcoming purgatory in an FBI evidence warehouse/vault.

[RedsFan1941]

any brown lenoxes in this one?

[Rhotchkiss]

any brown lenoxes in this one?

Thankfully no. As I suspect you know considering your post, a Brown Lenox was the last card I bid on (and won) in a pwcc auction in June - and that would be tough to hold off on. But since that auction, I have chosen not to participate in their auctions.

[Exhibitman]

PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC

--Thanks for the chuckle, John.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Costanza%20clap.gif

[swarmee]

That's been my signature block for months now. It's kind of like Congress I guess. Public trust has eroded on the TPGs and auctionhouses exposed, but all the lines of business still run through them.

[bounce]

agree that the selection is relatively weak. I'm interested also to see how prices may be impacted by all the recent states that have sales tax being collected now.

[joshuanip]

agree that the selection is relatively weak. I'm interested also to see how prices may be impacted by all the recent states that have sales tax being collected now.

I don’t think the selection is weak. There are a lot of Ruth and Cobb cards in the current auction... like the vgex Maple Crispette Ruth. Or the VGEX Type 2 coupon Cobb. wink wink.

[BeanTown]

I don't keep up with PWCC as I'm sure someone else will replace them as a PSA outlet for altered cards. Questionable business practices and all the bad press has to catch up with them. So, how is Small Traditions looking as I hear they are gaining in popularity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are numerous outlets for altered cards. PWCC is high profile, but all the focus on them (part of which was due to the ability to track before and after scans) should not leave the impression they are unique in this regard.

[T206Collector]

Poor Jackie...

Card is in the newest PWCC Ebay auction.

Purchased raw for $900.00 on May 05, 2015. Seller mentions a surface crease.

"You are bidding on a 1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson Rookie card. The card is a great looking card. It has 4 nice corners, and nicely centered. It has a stain on the back of the card and also has a surface crease. Check the pictures. . Free shipping"

Links to first purchase:
Worthpoint - https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1948-leaf-jackie-robinson-rookie-rc-1753033429
CardTarget - http://www.cardtarget.com/cards/53513

Card is now a SGC 7 with a glowing description.

"Those who've studied the '48 Leaf Jackie Robinson rookie know quickly how this example is a world apart from the rest. Easily ranking among the finest copies we've had the pleasure of brokering in our long tenure and conservatively ranking within the top 30% of our quality spectrum. This card lights up the room with its glowing lemon-yellow background and virtually 50-50 centering. The borders are virtually immaculate, the periphery is blemish free and the card stock is NM-MT. Furthermore, three corners are pin-point sharp while the bottom right has a microscopic touch present at the extreme point. An exceedingly light horizontal print roller mark through Jackie's hat is all that keeps from grading higher. In conclusion, this is simply a world class example of a highly significant production, both in the world in trading cards and our country's culture and history."

Stain reduced at the top of the card front. Edges (especially at the top) are significantly better. No mention of the crease.

PWCC listing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Jackie-Robinson-ROOKIE-RC-79-SGC-7-5-NRMT-PWCC-A/401910069662?hash=item5d93b4f99e:g:YgwAAOSw7gpdlmJ K

https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040519217_o.jpghttps://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040519213_o.jpg

https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518396_o.jpghttps://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518398_o.jpg

https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518403_o.jpghttps://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518393_o.jpg

https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518400_o.jpghttps://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1040518402_o.jpg

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=15101363&postcount=5573

[perezfan]

Ugh...

How many 1948-49 Leafs does that make now? Hate to say it, but I'd be suspicious of any '48-'49 Leaf Cards graded "5" or better.