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Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 08:38 AM
Let's say you're a dealer or regular seller. You sell someone a graded card. A year or more later, the card is outed by clear evidence as having been altered, and the seller requests a refund. Let's assume you didn't know it was altered when you sold it. Should you refund or is it now the buyer's problem? Looking for people's thoughts on the ethical issue, not a legal analysis over whether the buyer would have a claim for rescission under mutual mistake or a related doctrine.

Throttlesteer
07-13-2019, 08:49 AM
Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

bnorth
07-13-2019, 08:56 AM
Personally I would refund the $ because not refunding would make me feel like a POS. I would also make sure everyone knew I done the right thing to help my business grow.

Then again IF I was the one altering the cards and submitting them I would tell the sucker to pound sand. Then I would just act like nothing happened because most collectors are lemmings at best.

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 08:57 AM
I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

Hxcmilkshake
07-13-2019, 09:02 AM
I would work with the buyer as I wouldn't want to lose a customer. First I'd tell him to go thru the TPG if that fails I would refund him probably. Or make some kind of deal with him.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

frankbmd
07-13-2019, 09:04 AM
Who has added value to the card?

A. The Card Doctor

B. The Card Doctor's Enabler

C. The Third Party Grader

D. The (Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, etc) Reseller

E. All of the Above

Ethically I think most would give D a pass and therefore E would not be correct.

For A, B, or C to suggest that any party in D should be responsible for a refund is not ethical in my opinion.

If there are 12 innocent resellers following the chain back to A, B or C would be a monumental task involving multiple individuals who are not culpable, legally or ethically.

I keep records of my collection including purchase prices, sellers, buyers, cert numbers, etc. pedominantly for my present collection. I have some information related to BST sales, but for the most part once a card is no longer part of my collection, much of the records kept for that card are deleted. I think auction house archives do a better job in record keeping than I going backward, but I would predict that most collectors in the hobby do not, nor are they ethically challenged.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:08 AM
I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:15 AM
Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

And the seller could take the card back and deal with the TPG himself. Why as between innocents in the transaction does that burden lie with the buyer not the seller who sold a bad card, even if unwittingly?

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:15 AM
Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:17 AM
Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:23 AM
Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:28 AM
True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:31 AM
True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 09:36 AM
Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:36 AM
So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

bnorth
07-13-2019, 09:36 AM
In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 09:39 AM
Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

funny you should mention civil lawsuits...there have been no civil lawsuits ....too costly, jurisdiction so far away, not worth it according to members on this board..what choice to they have but just wait ......so why argue all this theory when everyone said lawsuits are last resort because of legal fees and giving the chance to people to pay back the buyers.....everyone is happy apparently because no lawsuits.


i also agree the analogy of the car situation is not comparable......maybe an exclusive PSA dealer.....when you buy a card from a dealer , they say no refunds after 30 days etc...they dont hawk the great PSA guarantee.....car dealers/even used ones. always hawk the great gurantee/warranty as an inducement to sell the vehicle.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:40 AM
It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

SMPEP
07-13-2019, 09:44 AM
There's a variety of scenarios to consider:

First, if you were the original submitter to the TPG, then you absolutely should take the card back no matter what and go after the TPG. You brought the altered card into the hobby by accident. (NOTE: I assume by accident in this case, because let's face it, if you were the person who did the undetected alteration - you're not accepting a return no matter what. You have no honor or ethics and have already demonstrated that.) If you are the original submitter to the TPG though, you have direct claim on the TPG, and the TPG should pay for their mistake. That's who really bears the ultimate responsibility in every case.


If you were a purchaser and then reseller of the card, then I think It's important what you disclosed in the auction.

I've seen a lot of sellers on Ebay say" No returns on graded cards." In that case I think it's fair not to accept the return. You made your policy clear to the buyer. The buyer knew they should rely on the TPG opinion. The buyer knew you would not accept a return. So, they made an fully informed choice on the purchase.

If the seller hasn't stated this policy (and is not within your usual return policy time frame), then that's a gray area. As someone who only buys or sells TPG cards by accident (because they were part of a lot of cards for example), I do not know how to evaluate cards the way a TPG does. As a seller, I would rely that the TPG got it right, and would sell it as such. I would have no idea that it isn't a legitimate grade. I also may not know who I bought that card from, and even if I did, I'd have no way to know if that seller would take the card back. So, in my opinion, I don't think accepting or rejecting the return is CLEARLY right or wrong in this case. I'd say that's up to the individual seller and their conscious and business model.

Cheers,
Patrick

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:45 AM
Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

Fuddjcal
07-13-2019, 09:45 AM
Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 09:46 AM
It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:48 AM
Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

It's similar in that they both offer a guarantee and in the event of a claim, you deal with the company that makes the guarantee.

Yes face palm emoji definitely needed.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:49 AM
Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 09:53 AM
The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

If TPG says they have new criteria now and even altered they now grade it the same as the grade you bought it for ..now what.... guess everyone happy..

jhs5120
07-13-2019, 09:53 AM
A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:55 AM
A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 09:56 AM
So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 09:58 AM
Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

Yes, it was a sarcastic swipe at Sloan, although as this thread illustrates it's a complex issue. In any case, even under my view of the seller's responsibility, PSA ends up having to make good on the guarantee unless the seller is the submitter.

Mark17
07-13-2019, 09:58 AM
Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

bnorth
07-13-2019, 09:59 AM
So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

LOL, gotta agree with David on this one. There is no way that was a serious question.

jhs5120
07-13-2019, 10:01 AM
So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

You're asking me why a warranty service is trying to avoid people from exercising their warranty?

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:02 AM
As a side note, the law always seems to have difficulty resolving situations where both parties are innocent but one gets hurt. It does make for good discussions though.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:03 AM
You're asking me why a warranty service is trying to avoid people from exercising their warranty?

See prior post, it was a swipe at Sloan's missive.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:06 AM
Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

Kenny Cole
07-13-2019, 10:09 AM
Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

jhs5120
07-13-2019, 10:12 AM
See prior post, it was a swipe at Sloan's missive.

I figured it was rhetorical. To me, PSA commands a premium because it has a guarantee. It isn't the registry, or the strict grading (lol), it's the warranty. If they get it wrong, they will reimburse you. They'll huff and puff, but they're pretty reliable with their warranty.

If you are paying a premium for a service that has such a warranty, you should exercise it if there's a problem. Don't go back to the dealer if you get in a car accident. That's why you have insurance.

TMKenKen
07-13-2019, 10:15 AM
There is no way that I would feel legally or ethically obligated to do so. Every sale/exchange/trade to another hobbyist or buyer I make as someone who is not in the business of being a dealer or broker is AS IS. I make no express or implied warranty as to condition or authenticity. Buyer is on his own to make that determination. More than likely I was stuck in the first place, and I suspect, without direct privity of contract with the TPG, I may have difficulty getting the TPG to refund me. More importantly, without direct privity if I have the legal right to do so, then my Buyer does so as well.

As someone, maybe many, pointed out the burden should lie with the TPG as it is aware that all future owners of the graded card are relying upon the inspection, authentication and grading. All BFP's holding the card should be able to avail itself of the guaranty. I am not certain that disclaimers, statutes of limitation etc. create that legal liability however.

Now, if I were aware before I sold, that is another issue, but that isn't the premise here.

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 10:17 AM
Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

bnorth
07-13-2019, 10:17 AM
I figured it was rhetorical. To me, PSA commands a premium because it has a guarantee. It isn't the registry, or the strict grading (lol), it's the warranty. If they get it wrong, they will reimburse you. They'll huff and puff, but they're pretty reliable with their warranty.

If you are paying a premium for a service that has such a warranty, you should exercise it if there's a problem. Don't go back to the dealer if you get in a car accident. That's why you have insurance.

Great post, I had honestly never though about it that way. Paying the premium for the warranty makes way more sense than any other reason I have heard.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:20 AM
I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

And it may well be just you.:D

Mark17
07-13-2019, 10:21 AM
Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

Peter, it is a good and fair question and my answer would be that while I would not blame the seller for misrepresentation, if I was unhappy with the card (based on the revelation it had been doctored at some point) I may ask if I can return it based on the fact I am not happy with it.

The difference is that if Beckett is grading cards while making no guarantees, then that is not much different than my mailman glancing at a card, shrugging his shoulders, and saying "Looks real to me." In other words I would consider a graded card with no TPG guarantee to be essentially a raw card, and I do think buyers should be able to return raw cards to sellers within a reasonable time frame.

drcy
07-13-2019, 10:23 AM
Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

That's a different situation because seller (and and buyer) never legally owned the item. There never was a legal sale.

My opinion is there are different ways of handling the OP's question. If you wanted to refund it you can, but it is also fair to tell the buyer to the TPA. For better or worse, the TPA has set themselves up as guaranteer. Unlike some situations, I don't think one choice is more or less ethical than the other.

Though I've never been keen on auction houses that use the TPA to wash their hands of the issue. Auctions houses are supposed to be experts too.

Johnny630
07-13-2019, 10:23 AM
To me it’s a very unfortunate situation....if the card is in a holder and it’s been more then 30 days since sale....I believe the card has to be returned to the TPG

For years I have refused to crack any PSA bought cards I did not know the history on....meaning who submitted who sold previously ect it’s a gamble I do not wish to take...I also feel once you crack a card it’s all on you not whom you bought it from ....

It’s sad

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:31 AM
It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

David -- same facts as in my not-so-hypothetical, but now it's a Beckett card that's just been outed as altered. Does the dealer have to take it back?

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 10:32 AM
I figured it was rhetorical. To me, PSA commands a premium because it has a guarantee. It isn't the registry, or the strict grading (lol), it's the warranty. If they get it wrong, they will reimburse you. They'll huff and puff, but they're pretty reliable with their warranty.

If you are paying a premium for a service that has such a warranty, you should exercise it if there's a problem. Don't go back to the dealer if you get in a car accident. That's why you have insurance.

if PSA wont pay it you go back to the dealer....of course i would try PSA first as the easiest method but ultimately its the seller's potential obligation

of course can sue for anything....PSA can still say the card is a PSA 6 despite all of the pictures of prior sales and not pay on the guarantee because of that...then you sue the seller but the seller says you did get a PSA 6...PSA says so.....however now you cant sell the card for the same PSA 6 price because there is a less of a buyer pool

Defense will argue you didnt do due dilligence and you could of seen the prior sale on an easy internet search...and that PSA says its a 6...

it is what it is.....seller could refuse to refund the card but ultimately its always a business decision ......ethical moral decisions happen all the time.....heck on raw cards ...buyers will argue the picture did not show a micro issue and try to return the card.....its just another item on the list..

Sportzking
07-13-2019, 10:35 AM
I'm just wondering, lets say you're not a big time dealer and the card in question is a thousand dollar card. Then this happens a year after you sell the card and you know that financially you would be in a huge hole if you managed to refund the buyer, would you still hold the fact the seller should be honoring the sale?

Also how do people know if the buyer didn't somehow crack the slab and slipped in a trimmed card, which as I recall they had this problem with old PSA slabs before. Then proclaimed the card is altered and demand a refund? I know its a bunch of what ifs and am not taking sides.

I feel with this recent alteration thing blowing up its not just turning collectors against the TPGs. Its also turning collectors against other collectors, and dealers too.

vintagetoppsguy
07-13-2019, 10:37 AM
David -- same facts as in my not-so-hypothetical, but now it's a Beckett card that's just been outed as altered. Does the dealer have to take it back?

Peter, I honestly dont know what Beckett's guarantee is...or if they even have one. If they have a guarantee, the buyer should take it up with Beckett. If they don't have a guarantee then, as a seller, I would probably refund the money.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:38 AM
Peter, I honestly dont know what Beckett's guarantee is...or if they even have one. If they have a guarantee, the buyer should take it up with Beckett. If they don't have a guarantee then, as a seller, I would probably refund the money.

They don't have one.

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 10:38 AM
I'm just wondering, lets say you're not a big time dealer and the card in question is a thousand dollar card. Then this happens a year after you sell the card and you know that financially you would be in a huge hole if you managed to refund the buyer, would you still hold the fact the seller should be honoring the sale?

Also how do people know if the buyer didn't somehow crack the slab and slipped in a trimmed card, which as I recall they had this problem with old PSA slabs before. Then proclaimed the card is altered and demand a refund? I know its a bunch of what ifs and am not taking sides.

I feel with this recent alteration thing blowing up its not just turning collectors against the TPGs. Its also turning collectors against other collectors, and dealers too.

cracked slabs is a all different thing as those ruin the chain of custody issue and guarantee I dont see a seller having to legally refund a card if its proven the slab was cracked open

1952boyntoncollector
07-13-2019, 10:41 AM
They don't have one.

Well if PSA is indeed paying out on these, i dont know how you would go with any other TPG who doesnt...and would understand why auction prices for same numbered PSA slabs versus other companies slabs go for higher

forget the registry or harshness of grading...being paid back on a trimmed card would be the #1 reason to me to pay more for a PSA graded card or other TPG that actually pays on a guarantee.

yeah you can attempt to also go after the seller but having two options is better than one.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 10:49 AM
Well if PSA is indeed paying out on these, i dont know how you would go with any other TPG who doesnt...and would understand why auction prices for same numbered PSA slabs versus other companies slabs go for higher

forget the registry or harshness of grading...being paid back on a trimmed card would be the #1 reason to me to pay more for a PSA graded card or other TPG that actually pays on a guarantee.

yeah you can attempt to also go after the seller but having two options is better than one.

It's been posted that PSA has a long history of squashing people on guarantee claims though.

drcy
07-13-2019, 10:53 AM
If dealers are the ones held responsible for TPA mistakes, that will help plummet the market for graded cards.

Personally, I think dealers should take much responsibility for what the sell (even with the have LOA's etc), but also know it's unfair for them to take full responsibility and physical examination of items they can't physically examine because of they have been entombed in plastic since they had it . . . But, if they are held fully responsible, that is why the market for graded will plummet. The dealers won't have confidence in the grades/authentication, and, when buying and selling, will be wary of the TPA's opinions. The TPA opinions won't mean as much to them, and, if they are fully responsible despite what the TPA says, the dealers may no longer wish to get the items graded.

It also may result in TPA's being used and considered for what they really are: giving a second opinion-- nothing less, but nothiing more. They will no longer be metaphysical arbiter and financial guaranteer.

Duly note that TPA's being treated as arbiter of truth is largely a matter of the buyers and sellers, not the TPA. For example, the TPA autograph LOAs specifically say on the letters that they are offering opinions (it's literally there in black and white). It is the collectors and dealers (rather, many of them) that treat the letters as something more. The TPAs don't sell the cards or autographs-- it is the buyers and sellers who, on their own, construct that market and its axioms.

I rail against the registry and its dubious statistical calculations. However, in defense of PSA, they don't buy or sell any of the registry sets or say how they should bought or sold or priced. How the sets are bought and sold, valuated and considered vis a vis the registry rankings is a construct of the buyers and sellers.

To put it into Seinfeldese, with all the drama and moral angst about who deserves credit for handing Elain the big salad, the punchline was "It was just a big salad."

The big salad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2zTrBmI1nI)

So, yes, the PSA registry is just a big salad-- which some might say implies that the buyers and sellers are a bunch of George Costanzas (with a Newman or two thrown in).

And, no, no one is saying there's anything wrong with a big salad. I like salad. Just don't base your religion on it.

BruceinGa
07-13-2019, 11:47 AM
I'm not a dealer or a seller, I'm a hoarder!
Imo, if you want to keep a customer you offer a refund or some kind of deal.

Fballguy
07-13-2019, 12:04 PM
A year or more later, I would not refund. What items that you purchase are guaranteed that long by the seller? If it was a few weeks up to maybe 30 days, I'd consider it.

drcy
07-13-2019, 12:23 PM
A year or more later, I would not refund. What items that you purchase are guaranteed that long by the seller? If it was a few weeks up to maybe 30 days, I'd consider it.

That is a good point. I think giving a fair (and stated upfront) return period, including a duration for the collector to check out the item and get second opinions, is, well, fair.

Of course some collectors want, and sometimes insist in preacher tones from the rooftops, on a double their money back guarantee to infinity plus one year and rights to the firstborn. However, as I say "A lot of people want a lot of things. I wanted a pony as a kid."

pclpads
07-13-2019, 12:36 PM
Confucius say: "Caveat Emptor." 'Nuff said.

griffon512
07-13-2019, 03:50 PM
So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?


Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 04:02 PM
A year or more later, I would not refund. What items that you purchase are guaranteed that long by the seller? If it was a few weeks up to maybe 30 days, I'd consider it.

So you would be comfortable keeping the money even though you now know beyond a doubt that a card you sold was altered, and even though (according to the hypothetical) you're a dealer selling to a collector? Not sure I would be.

steve B
07-13-2019, 04:50 PM
That is a good point. I think giving a fair (and stated upfront) return period, including a duration for the collector to check out the item and get second opinions, is, well, fair.

Of course some collectors want, and sometimes insist in preacher tones from the rooftops, on a double their money back guarantee to infinity plus one year and rights to the firstborn. However, as I say "A lot of people want a lot of things. I wanted a pony as a kid."

I've mentioned this before, the stamp and coin guy I've been going to for more than 30 years took back a coin he'd sold several years before that had just been rejected as altered. (never slabbed, the original sale was possibly before slabbing existed, it failed on its first trip to TPG.)
The coin was obviously altered, and he'd somehow missed that years earlier. I got to inspect it firsthand with a detailed explanation of why it was no good and what to look for.

That's the model I've always tried to use in any of my dealings.
At the bike shop we had I think a 30 or 90 day warranty on any work done. Problems usually come up right away, so either is usually way longer than needed.
I did a job as a warranty repair at a bit over 2 years. It was obvious the bike hadn't been ridden, and that I'd blown it that day. My exact comment was "What the heck was I thinking when I did that? Anyway, I'll fix it for free. "

In the end, I got far more business from people he referred than the repair cost.

So yes, if I sold a graded card, and it turned out to be proven to be altered, I would take it back. Probably even after a crackout and regrade if I was sure it was the same card.

Misunderestimated
07-13-2019, 05:04 PM
Ethically I would say that one does not have to accept the return if its based on the TPG's guarantee (that's my preliminary legal conclusion too-- without having researched it etc.)

But I would under most circumstances accept the return as a best practice -- not because I had to or even out of an ethical compulsion. It just seems right to me.

But I'm not envisioning a scenario with a huge amount of money at stake which might force me (or anyone else) to be reticent simply because I could not afford to reimburse on the spot without missing a mortgage payment or something.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 05:09 PM
Ethically I would say that one does not have to accept the return if its based on the TPG's guarantee (that's my preliminary legal conclusion too-- without having researched it etc.)

But I would under most circumstances accept the return as a best practice -- not because I had to or even out of an ethical compulsion. It just seems right to me.

But I'm not envisioning a scenario with a huge amount of money at stake which might force me (or anyone else) to be reticent simply because I could not afford to reimburse on the spot without missing a mortgage payment or something.

Legally, why can't the buyer rescind based on the doctrine of mutual mistake?

edhans
07-13-2019, 05:11 PM
Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

I couldn't disagree with this more. The seller is entirely responsible for the product he sells. That product is the card, not some third party's opinion. Even in a perfect world, where the grading companies had a shred of competence or ethics, it is the seller's responsibility to warrant the product he sells. If an item proves to be misrepresented, the seller should refund, no questions asked. In the graded card scenario, he would likely have some recourse against the grading company.

wondo
07-13-2019, 05:12 PM
I'd evaluate on each individual case, but would certainly lean to making it right with the buyer.

Seems like a convenient dodge for a number of expert collectors / dealers who disparage TPGs; all of a sudden hiding behind the TPG guarantee. Pathetic and disgusting. This behavior is why TPGs got a foothold in the first place.

There have been examples of what folks are calling obvious alterations when the card is exposed - where the hell were the expert dealers when the card was sold? Cashing the check, that's where.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 05:20 PM
I think both Ed and John, almost simultaneously, both state the case very well.

Misunderestimated
07-13-2019, 05:40 PM
Peter - as to "mutual mistake," it's not my area of the law.
So I'll defer -- happily. ....that's why I wrote preliminary without having researched ...etc... My bad.
....
----
By the way does the "TPG dodge" you describe ultimately mean that to have warranty relief the card has to go back to the person who was the original seller (presumably whomever submitted the card to the TPG) who could properly bring it to the TPG for the warranty ...
BUT then the TPG could assert that this person violated the submission terms by acting in bad faith and knowingly submitted a doctored card. So the TPG could then avoid its obligations under the warranty altogether. Pretty crafty.

(sorry if this is clumsy but it's Saturday)

ejharrington
07-13-2019, 06:13 PM
No way

griffon512
07-13-2019, 06:13 PM
i don't think you can look at the ethical responsibilities of the seller on a standalone basis. there are ethical considerations for the buyer too. the buyer should be taking reasonable steps to do their own due diligence and understand the risks of relying on a third party service if that factor weighed heavily in a purchase. it is not the sellers ethical obligation to inform the buyer of these risks in these instances in my view.

time passage is also an important factor. there is a big difference between a transaction between rescinded the same day versus after an extended period of time. in the latter case, the seller will not know if the purchase was made as a resale opportunity that did not work out. aside from that, there are valid reasons refunds have a time limitation across all businesses.

with all of that said, the people i interact with most in the hobby try to do the "right" thing for the buyer and seller where "right" has little to do with legal obligation.

Peter_Spaeth
07-13-2019, 06:16 PM
Peter - as to "mutual mistake," it's not my area of the law.
So I'll defer -- happily. ....that's why I wrote preliminary without having researched ...etc... My bad.
....
----
By the way does the "TPG dodge" you describe ultimately mean that to have warranty relief the card has to go back to the person who was the original seller (presumably whomever submitted the card to the TPG) who could properly bring it to the TPG for the warranty ...
BUT then the TPG could assert that this person violated the submission terms by acting in bad faith and knowingly submitted a doctored card. So the TPG could then avoid its obligations under the warranty altogether. Pretty crafty.

(sorry if this is clumsy but it's Saturday)

Leaving aside the Sloan letter, I think the guarantee applies broadly to any purchaser of the card in the current holder. I don't think there is any obligation to go back to the seller to invoke the guarantee.

Promethius88
07-13-2019, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth -So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?[
QUOTE=griffon512;1898627]Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?[/QUOTE]

This is simple, in my eyes and I've explained it before. Yes, 100% a business decision and they know they will be most likely be paying out a lot in the future. They are tying to minimize that amount now. They know the majority of these cards were sold by one particular entity which appears to possibly be involved in the fraudulent activities. PSA does NOT have to refund to the original submitter in certain situations as was noted in one of the other 50 threads on this issue. Send the cards back to the seller then they don't have to refund them if they send back to PSA. Love them, hate them....whatever, but it is the smartest way to limit their economic exposure.

Johnny630
07-14-2019, 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth -So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?[
QUOTE=griffon512;1898627]Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?

This is simple, in my eyes and I've explained it before. Yes, 100% a business decision and they know they will be most likely be paying out a lot in the future. They are tying to minimize that amount now. They know the majority of these cards were sold by one particular entity which appears to possibly be involved in the fraudulent activities. PSA does NOT have to refund to the original submitter in certain situations as was noted in one of the other 50 threads on this issue. Send the cards back to the seller then they don't have to refund them if they send back to PSA. Love them, hate them....whatever, but it is the smartest way to limit their economic exposure.[/QUOTE]

This argument has proven to me that as much as this industry has evolved and grown over the years its still filled with the same fraud and manipulation it has always had...nothing is going to change.....it’s still the same old same....
PSA is a brilliant business model...

Prof_Plum
07-14-2019, 06:27 AM
Leaving aside the Sloan letter, I think the guarantee applies broadly to any purchaser of the card in the current holder. I don't think there is any obligation to go back to the seller to invoke the guarantee.
So I'm the seller and I've learned my TPG 3 was trimmed. I bought it last year for $100. I can either go to the TPG to get reimbursed for the $100 or.... "sell" it (wink wink) to a friend for $500 and have my friend go get reimbursed for $500.

Johnny630
07-14-2019, 06:40 AM
When the smoke all clears We will hear the same thing from fellow collectors and dealer a like Buyer Beware Be Careful Who You Buy From

If the past is any indication of the future this is what most likely will happen...
That’s it, end of the story. No one will take accountability, responsibility, liability, or be held criminally Responsible......

The beat continues to go on. The Crowds at the Nationals will be larger then ever and will happily be giving their money and cards to PSA and PWCC

Why are we spinning our wheels here we all know what the outcome will be.......it’s sad

Leon
07-14-2019, 06:58 AM
You should ask PWCC, PSA or Gary Moser if we are spinning our wheels? My guess is, they don't think so.

As to the question, I think the TPG bears the brunt because they are taking your money and supposedly giving you good information and a sellable product. That said, I have always tried to make the buyer of my cards whole or good. I have taken back a card after 2 yrs before because the collector didn't realize it was someone else on the card.

When the smoke all clears We will hear the same thing from fellow collectors and dealer a like Buyer Beware Be Careful Who You Buy From

If the past is any indication of the future this is what most likely will happen...
That’s it, end of the story. No one will take accountability, responsibility, liability, or be held criminally Responsible......

The beat continues to go on. The Crowds at the Nationals will be larger then ever and will happily be giving their money and cards to PSA and PWCC

Why are we spinning our wheels here we all know what the outcome will be.......it’s sad

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 06:59 AM
So I'm the seller and I've learned my TPG 3 was trimmed. I bought it last year for $100. I can either go to the TPG to get reimbursed for the $100 or.... "sell" it (wink wink) to a friend for $500 and have my friend go get reimbursed for $500.

No it gets reimbursed according to the guarantee for current market value not purchase price.

Buythatcard
07-14-2019, 07:03 AM
No it gets reimbursed according to the guarantee for current market value not purchase price.

How do they determine current market value? Do they include all the doctored cards which have inflated the price? Do they include all the shilled cards? Or do they just come up with their own market value?

Johnny630
07-14-2019, 07:21 AM
should ask PWCC, PSA or Gary Moser if we are spinning our wheels? My guess is, they don't think so.

Leon unfortunately I think GM Pwcc And PSA is laughing.....just stay hush hush the suckers will get over this...just keep quiet it will pass....no shortage of arrogance with above crew

bnorth
07-14-2019, 07:26 AM
I think GM Pwcc And PSA is laughing hush hush the suckers will get over this...just keep quiet it will pass

Unfortunately even with all the stuff going on I agree. I am pretty sure if those and the other scum get by with it a whole new set of scammers will come out of the wood work. Heck why not, a ton of reward with little to no risk. The best part is the people you scam are also the ones sticking up for you.:)

steve B
07-14-2019, 12:00 PM
You should ask PWCC, PSA or Gary Moser if we are spinning our wheels? My guess is, they don't think so.

As to the question, I think the TPG bears the brunt because they are taking your money and supposedly giving you good information and a sellable product. That said, I have always tried to make the buyer of my cards whole or good. I have taken back a card after 2 yrs before because the collector didn't realize it was someone else on the card.

They must have been really disappointed to learn there were two guys named Wagner playing at the same time.....:D

vintagecpa
07-14-2019, 12:52 PM
The Sloan letter isn’t the greatest PR move, but is exactly what I would recommend. PSA has probably already made the decision that they won’t be writing any checks to PCWW or any other customers that submitted a large number of tainted cards. It only makes sense to make PCWW write as many checks to cover claims first. PSA is also buying time to see how big the potential liability is when the dust settles.

perezfan
07-14-2019, 01:26 PM
The Sloan letter isn’t the greatest PR move, but is exactly what I would recommend. PSA has probably already made the decision that they won’t be writing any checks to PCWW or any other customers that submitted a large number of tainted cards. It only makes sense to make PCWW write as many checks to cover claims first. PSA is also buying time to see how big the potential liability is when the dust settles.

Again- Looking out only for themselves and their own profits. Nothing they do is in the true interest of the collector.

Perhaps Ben stated it best...

"The best part is the people you scam are also the ones sticking up for you".

If alive today, PT Barnum would be quite proud.

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 01:29 PM
There is no doubt PT today would have started a grading service.

vintagecpa
07-14-2019, 01:53 PM
Again- Looking out only for themselves and their own profits. Nothing they do is in the true interest of the collector.

Perhaps Ben stated it best...

"The best part is the people you scam are also the ones sticking up for you".

If alive today, PT Barnum would be quite proud.

They are a publicly traded company. Every decision they make will put the best interests of the shareholders first. If this scandal is as big as many suspect, writing the a check for every bad card could either bankrupt the company or turn it into a penny stock.

Snapolit1
07-14-2019, 02:54 PM
card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

Not only is the seller in most cases not vouching for the TPG, in most cases they expressly disavow any expertise, reliance, etc. Obviously I'm talking big sellers and not just some dude at a show.

perezfan
07-14-2019, 03:10 PM
They are a publicly traded company. Every decision they make will put the best interests of the shareholders first. If this scandal is as big as many suspect, writing the a check for every bad card could either bankrupt the company or turn it into a penny stock.

Fully understood... But as a collector, I personally would not be investing heavily in an entity that puts its customer so far behind its shareholder.

Referring back to Ben's quote, I only hope people consider this mindset as they decide where to put their money, moving forward. If PSA is that incompetent at what they purportedly do, perhaps bankruptcy is the best outcome. Right now, the self-appointed "experts" possess all of the power. The balance of power needs to shift significantly, from corporation to collector.

Because without us, there is no hobby, and no PSA. Yet the hypnosis continues. What a scam :(

1952boyntoncollector
07-14-2019, 03:16 PM
How do they determine current market value? Do they include all the doctored cards which have inflated the price? Do they include all the shilled cards? Or do they just come up with their own market value?

People are still buying cards now, the market didnt just die. Obviously if there arguments over market value there can be lawsuits and experts brought in if all the time money and attorney fees are worth it to do it that way..

thus far there seems to be agreements as to market price because no lawsuits filed

perezfan
07-14-2019, 03:21 PM
People are still buying cards now, the market didnt just die. Obviously if there arguments over market value there can be lawsuits and experts brought in if all the time money and attorney fees are worth it to do it that way..

thus far there seems to be agreements as to market price because no lawsuits filed

Many of those defrauded are not even aware of it yet. Unless you're on BO or net54, you probably aren't aware of the scandal's massive scale. Assuming it ever hits the more mainstream media, there WILL be lawsuits.

These things don't happen overnight.... Give it some time, for gosh sake!

1952boyntoncollector
07-14-2019, 03:26 PM
Many of those defrauded are not even aware of it yet. Unless you're on BO or net54, you probably aren't aware of the scandal's massive scale. Assuming it ever hits the more mainstream media, there WILL be lawsuits.

These things don't happen overnight.... Give it some time, for gosh sake!

i was just answering the question about how the heck could anyone agree on a market price now.

I do think many that buy 5k cards and over have a friend or two that may know the larger picture even if they dont. So yeah some guy that bought a 200 dollar card may not know about it for 10 years but the 1952 Topps Rutherford that sold for 12k or whatever...no way he doesnt know that . Card community is pretty small, the PSA set registry community even smaller, people that buy 10k+ cards even smaller than that.

does everyone know..of course not, but enough time has elapsed that for 5k or more cards if PSA had said we not paying anyone, a lawsuit would of been filed by now. Its obvious, that enough people are being satisfied by now on this first wave that a market price agreement has been agreed too for now..

Johnny630
07-14-2019, 03:26 PM
This is what’s going to happen......... a whole lot of nothing burger

Just has Tom Hanks Said there is no crying in baseball
There is no ethics in the sports card industry

perezfan
07-14-2019, 03:34 PM
This is what’s going to happen......... a whole lot of nothing burger

Just has Tom Hanks Said there is no crying in baseball
There is no ethics in the sports card industry

I think there will be something burger...

Not sure what, and not expecting "In & Out" or "Shake Shack" quality. Perhaps more like White Castle... but something positive has to emerge from this mess.

Johnny630
07-14-2019, 04:35 PM
I think there will be something burger...

Not sure what, and not expecting "In & Out" or "Shake Shack" quality. Perhaps more like White Castle... but something positive has to emerge from this mess.

To me it all has to come down to the grading company PSA....they’re supposed to be the authority.....what good is their services if they can’t stop this.....
If people lose their faith in PSA our Industry will be DONE. This is why I believe nothing will happen except business as usual for PSA meaning no reason why this happened no paying back no addressing it publicly period. To many people have millions of dollars tied up in this industry they don’t want it to fall I don’t want it to fail.

Does PSA have a good excuse or Reason why this happened?
The more they deny and keep hush the worse it’s gonna be for PSA in the long run......

I still think Nothing is Going to a Change .....I feel like at PSA, they’re saying, or at least telling their share holders stay calm keep hush....there are too many suckers whom are addicted to our registry and grading brand.... we are making Everyone Tons of Money on our Brand/slabbed cards/they need us... The dealers, Auction Houses, Collectors, Flippers are profiting......they need us more then we need them....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them.
Keep Quiet we will get through this....our brand is strong.

barrysloate
07-14-2019, 04:55 PM
I think something will happen, and I predict PSA will acknowledge that they have a responsibility to fix this. Where the problem may lie is PSA might feel it only needs a few tweaks to make it all right again. So their admission might fall quite a bit short.

But this is too massive for them to pretend nothing happened. Maybe they'll offer all aggrieved parties a Domino's pizza with two free toppings. Would that work for everybody?

perezfan
07-14-2019, 04:57 PM
To me it all has to come down to the grading company PSA....they’re supposed to be the authority.....what good is their services if they can’t stop this.....
If people lose their faith in PSA our Industry will be DONE. This is why I believe nothing will happen except business as usual for PSA meaning no reason why this happened no paying back no addressing it publicly period. To many people have millions of dollars tied up in this industry they don’t want it to fall I don’t want it to fail.

Does PSA have a good excuse or Reason why this happened?
The more they deny and keep hush the worse it’s gonna be for PSA in the long run......

I still think Nothing is Going to a Change .....I feel like at PSA, they’re saying, or at least telling their share holders stay calm keep hush....there are too many suckers whom are addicted to our registry and grading brand.... we are making Everyone Tons of Money on our Brand/slabbed cards/they need us... The dealers, Auction Houses, Collectors, Flippers are profiting......they need us more then we need them....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them.
Keep Quiet we will get through this....our brand is strong.

Agree with all the above, except for the part highlighted in bold italics...

I do not think the hobby is anywhere near "done" if PSA were to go down. It was a great hobby before PSA ever existed, and it could continue to be. Very quickly, something else would come along to inevitably replace them. If there are to be any "learnings" from this scandal, then the new entity will be something improved and enhanced.

The vast majority of cards in PSA Holders wouldn't be deemed bad. Some current 8s, 9s and 10s would lose some value, and deservedly so. The grading game is very close to a monopoly right now, and perhaps a new player or two would be a good thing for the majority of collectors.

That said... you're probably right. Big money and corrupt influences will dictate that nothing changes.

Fred
07-14-2019, 05:34 PM
If the card is raw and there's an issue, then yes, a refund by the seller would be in order.

If the card is graded then it should be on the TPG to take care of business.

IMO, most collectors will bid based on the grade and the fact that the TPG has opined the card has not been altered. That said, the bidder better understand the differences between a reputable and fly by night TPG.

It's pretty sad to see this hobby being "de-graded" as rapidly as it has in the past few years.

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 05:34 PM
Agree with all the above, except for the part highlighted in bold italics...

I do not think the hobby is anywhere near "done" if PSA were to go down. It was a great hobby before PSA ever existed, and it could continue to be. Very quickly, something else would come along to inevitably replace them. If there are to be any "learnings" from this scandal, then the new entity will be something improved and enhanced.

The vast majority of cards in PSA Holders wouldn't be deemed bad. Some current 8s, 9s and 10s would lose some value, and deservedly so. The grading game is very close to a monopoly right now, and perhaps a new player or two would be a good thing for the majority of collectors.

That said... you're probably right. Big money and corrupt influences will dictate that nothing changes.

There's always SGC, or is it now S_C?

steve B
07-14-2019, 08:52 PM
Peter, Could PSA not honoring it's guarantee and passing the buck to sellers be taken as false advertising?

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 08:59 PM
Peter, Could PSA not honoring it's guarantee and passing the buck to sellers be taken as false advertising?

Where are they "advertising" the guarantee? I forget where it is now. I only know where SGC's used to be.

steve B
07-14-2019, 09:06 PM
A link at the bottom of this page
https://www.psacard.com/services/tradingcardgrading

Takes you here
https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee/

I think I see where you're going, it's more just there than advertised, so maybe the answer would be no.

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 09:11 PM
It doesn't seem to me like the type of case a government agency would ever pursue at least not in isolation. I guess a statement on a website might fall within a definition of advertising since it's promoting a service, but still...

steve B
07-14-2019, 09:53 PM
I wasn't thinking government agency, but the point seems the same, that the idea is pretty weak.

^Reason I do prototyping and wrenching and not law. :o

I got close once though. In drafting school there was an ad on the bulletin board for a law school. I figured it would be nice to be a patent lawyer who could do his own drawings, which were a specialty at the time.

I called and they seemed annoyed that I didn't have at least a bachelors degree in something yet, and even more so when I pointed out that they were advertising in a 2 year state technical school that didn't even offer bachelors degrees.

Peter_Spaeth
07-14-2019, 09:56 PM
A private claim wouldn't work unless and until there was actual harm from a guarantee not being honored in a specific case, and then you would just bring a claim for breach of the guarantee, not false advertising.

the 'stache
07-14-2019, 11:46 PM
i don't think you can look at the ethical responsibilities of the seller on a standalone basis. there are ethical considerations for the buyer too. the buyer should be taking reasonable steps to do their own due diligence and understand the risks of relying on a third party service if that factor weighed heavily in a purchase. it is not the sellers ethical obligation to inform the buyer of these risks in these instances in my view.


This is an excellent point. The seller has a responsibility to stand behind the product they sell, but there is also an onus on the buyer to do their homework.

When I was starting to buy vintage and especially pre-war cards, the later of which I had very little knowledge of at the time, if I decided to buy a card slabbed by a tpg, I did much more than simply look at the grade of the card, the card's centering and overall visual aesthetic. I was looking at the slab, itself, searching for signs of tampering. I looked at the card, with the highest resolution possible, searching for things like uneven/wavy edges that would indicate trimming. I did whatever possible to look into the history of the seller, both here, and, if listed, their Ebay store. I asked questions, building a rapport with the member. I'd ask about the history of the card. And once I had the card in hand, I grabbed my loupe, and examined the card under natural, LED and black light.

As a proactive, informed buyer, I cannot completely eliminate risk, but I can do things to dramatically reduce the likelihood that I'll be searching through a spreadsheet of certification numbers. If it's determined that one of the cards I've purchased has been altered, I'll speak with the seller, but I'll also accept a certain amount of responsibility.

Here is the problem, though. Not everybody buying cards has the knowledge our forum members have. They'll see the card graded, and pay a premium price for a card they feel has received an unimpeachable opinion. What if a young kid is collecting cards, and Grandma or Grandpa decides to get their grandson a baseball card for a birthday or Christmas gift? They won't have any clue that there are issues with TPGs, with card doctors. They'll be completely oblivious to the fraud within the hobby. The kid certainly won't know, either, and that card will sit in their collection for years before they stumble across an old article here, or on Blowout. By then, it's too late.

drcy
07-15-2019, 12:13 AM
A related example is if, after the sale new information is discovered about the card, that wasn't known nat the time. For example, if a few years after the sale, hobby historians deduce or learn that a card considered and cataloged as being from 1920 was actually made in 1928. Something perhaps relevant for rookie card collectors-- that rookie card may no longer be a rookie card.

I don't believe the seller should be considered responsible for this, even though the card was misdated at the time of sale.

MULLINS5
07-16-2019, 05:41 PM
If I sold one of these cards I'd absolutely accept a refund and hope dealers do the same, but understand not everyone may have the funds to make things right.