PSA 8 T206 Honus Wagner currently missing from Pop Report

[swarmee]

Looks like after the discussion on Gary Moser's card alteration habits and being interviewed for the New York Times, Ken Kendrick has sent his T206 Wagner into PSA for Review. It is currently missing from the Pop Report.

For those that keep saying "nothing is ever going to happen," maybe stop saying that? It looks like PSA is taking this seriously.

Add: First posted this morning by Bruins1993 on blowout: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1302161&page=2

[conor912]

It is my understanding that PSA has already reaffirmed the grade in the past. For them not to do so now would be admitting a level of incompetence that would rattle even the thirstiest of KoolAid drinkers. I would be absolutely shocked if they stripped the 8.

[darwinbulldog]

More likely that somebody hacked the population report or that PSA is simply correcting a grading error?

[Dpeck100]

When I sent in two cards years ago to be re-holdered they were removed from the pop report until the order was complete.

I am more inclined to think it is something like this.

[swarmee]

Could be a reholder, but I believe it's already been reholdered a couple of times. Not sure why you would do that at this point.
I sincerely doubt hacking.

[Dpeck100]

Could be a reholder, but I believe it's already been reholdered a couple of times. Not sure why you would do that at this point.
I sincerely doubt hacking.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/diamondbacks-collection-on-exhibit/

A quick Google search returned this from 2016 and it is in an older holder.

I will look and see if I can find any newer pics.

[Dpeck100]

After looking at that Blowout thread there were 34 in the pop and the image you showed that is current shows 33.

It is either being reviewed or re-holdered as the AUTH number was 6 in both and the total is one lower.

https://www.psacard.com/cert/00000001/

It is showing not in database at the moment.

[Fuddjcal]

Could be a reholder, but I believe it's already been reholdered a couple of times. Not sure why you would do that at this point.
I sincerely doubt hacking.

just going to make a few slight changes by dipping in chemicals and re-trimming to possibly get a 9. Brent Mastro probably gave it to Moser and then will send it back in to PSA to be re-graded a 9 or a 10 coming soon to a PWCC auction near you.

[darwinbulldog]

Where it will sell for...ONE MILLION DOLLARS! one hundred billion dollars.

[samosa4u]

I would be absolutely shocked if they stripped the 8.

This will never happen. Where will PSA get the money from to refund this card?

If PSA can just fix this Gary Moser mess, then I'll be happy.

[bmwntux]

The first card PSA graded back in 1991 was the Gretzky T206 Wagner. This is the PSA 8 card discussed here. It is well known that the card was altered by Bill Mastro. He admitted under oath that he trimmed the card, and it was in fact cut from a sheet. In Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card", the story is laid out in full detail. Mr. Kendrick is well aware of the card's providence. It is curious that PSA removed the card from the pop report after all of these years. It seems an admission of complicity in the decades old scandal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hope that's a spellcheck error.

[swarmee]

This will never happen. Where will PSA get the money from to refund this card? .
May not need to, if Mr. Kendrick has already said the card is worth the same or more based on the notoriety of the alteration.

[frankbmd]

It may be lost in the process, whatever the process is, but not to worry, whatever happens is good for the hobby.

[Stampsfan]

Maybe it will be in the next PWCC auction on eBay, and they are reholdering (sp?) it as we speak.

If so, it will certainly be worthy of attention.

[Promethius88]

May not need to, if Mr. Kendrick has already said the card is worth the same or more based on the notoriety of the alteration.

This....exactly. Due to the history, it is worth more and I don't believe the price guarantee would be exercised even if it's placed in an "Authentic Altered" holder. As long as the Gretzky pedigree is still on the label.

[LOTSOS]

Not in house. Not in for review. System glitch.

[LOTSOS]

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1022352/gretzky-wagner-cert-not-showing-up-is-this-an-error-or-was-it-intentionally-removed#latest

[perezfan]

This will never happen. Where will PSA get the money from to refund this card?

If PSA can just fix this Gary Moser mess, then I'll be happy.

Then you’ll never be happy. PSA cannot possibly “fix” it. Those cards are everywhere now. It has spread like a virus into hundreds of our collections. For every one that’s been exposed on BO, figure that 8-10 others have not been (and will never be) identified.

This is hardly a new development, and is not limited to Moser. The only thing new is the use of the internet (and some sloppy trails left behind) which enabled the skilled detectives at BO to uncover the blatant alterations.

[swarmee]

Not in house. Not in for review. System glitch.
Thanks for getting the answer from the horse's mouth. There sure have been a lot of sudden backup errors, computer glitches, missing pictures, and lost info the past two months...

But since the card is currently off the pop report, why not take the opportunity to review it for Mr. Kendrick free of charge?

[benjulmag]

This....exactly. Due to the history, it is worth more and I don't believe the price guarantee would be exercised even if it's placed in an "Authentic Altered" holder. As long as the Gretzky pedigree is still on the label.

You probably express the majority view, though until an actual sale takes place at such a level with the card re holdered as an "A", I will respectfully disagree. If though it turns out to be the case, I would think the price of certain vintage full-production-run uncut sheets will explode in value, not to mention the "A" Plank that came from the same sheet as the Wagner.

[tedzan]

…….. not to mention the "A" Plank that came from the same sheet as the Wagner.

Hi Corey

Your last comment sparked an instant "flashback" in my mind to the Willow Grove Show (circa 1985). The scenario was....Bill Mastro shopping around his new-found T206 Wagner to
us dealers at the Show. I remember he wanted 30K for it (which was a lot $$$$$ for it back then). But upon my close observation, I don't recall if I passed on it because of the price,
or because of my suspicion that it appeared "trimmed".

It certainly was the Talk of the Show that weekend. Furthermore, a rumor was "floating" around that this Wagner was cut from a PIEDMONT sheet which included an Eddie Plank card.
The rumor regarding the Plank card eventually materialized when we found out that Charlie Conlon acquired this PIEDMONT Plank from Mastro.
And, it was eventually graded by PSA as an "A".

Nevertheless, a bunch of us dealers (including me) reflecting back to that weekend in the mid-1980's do have some regrets.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Bigdaddy]

Assume it was resubmitted, looking for a 'bump' :cool:

[Jobu]

Any chance you have a scan of that Plank? I'd love to see it. Maybe you can also post your A Plank, I love seeing that one too!
Hi Corey

Your last comment sparked an instant "flashback" in my mind to the Willow Grove Show (circa 1985). The scenario was....Bill Mastro shopping around his new-found T206 Wagner to
us dealers at the Show. I remember he wanted 30K for it (which was a lot $$$$$ for it back then). But upon my close observation, I don't recall if I passed on it because of the price,
or because of my suspicion that it appeared "trimmed".

It certainly was the Talk of the Show that weekend. Furthermore, a rumor was "floating" around that this Wagner was cut from a PIEDMONT sheet which included an Eddie Plank card.
The rumor regarding the Plank card eventually materialized when we found out that Charlie Conlon acquired this PIEDMONT Plank from Mastro.
And, it was eventually graded by PSA as an "A".

Nevertheless, a bunch of us dealers (including me) reflecting back to that weekend in the mid-1980's do have some regrets.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Paul S]

I hope that's a spellcheck error.Me too

[tedzan]

Deleted.

[swarmee]

Me too
Are you guys ragging a brand new poster on his use of "providence" instead of "provenance"? Could easily be a replaced word from swiping the cellphone keyboard. I know I do it every once in a wheel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are you guys ragging a brand new poster on his use of "providence" instead of "provenance"? Could easily be a replaced word from swiping the cellphone keyboard. I know I do it every once in a wheel.

I see what you did.

[darwinbulldog]

C'mon, if there's one thing this world admires it's a pedant.

[benjulmag]

Hi Corey

Your last comment sparked an instant "flashback" in my mind to the Willow Grove Show (circa 1985). The scenario was....Bill Mastro shopping around his new-found T206 Wagner to
us dealers at the Show. I remember he wanted 30K for it (which was a lot $$$$$ for it back then). But upon my close observation, I don't recall if I passed on it because of the price,
or because of my suspicion that it appeared "trimmed".

It certainly was the Talk of the Show that weekend. Furthermore, a rumor was "floating" around that this Wagner was cut from a PIEDMONT sheet which included an Eddie Plank card.
The rumor regarding the Plank card eventually materialized when we found out that Charlie Conlon acquired this PIEDMONT Plank from Mastro.
And, it was eventually graded by PSA as an "A".

Nevertheless, a bunch of us dealers (including me) reflecting back to that weekend in the mid-1980's do have some regrets.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Ted,

I remember that show well. I also remember some people at the time speculating that the Wagner Mastro had was the oversized one (currently at the HOF) that was trimmed down to make it a Nr-Mt card.

Speaking of regrets, I certainly have some from that episode. Bob Sevchuck, the person who sold the cards to Mastro, first called me to tell me he had en route a Nr-Mt Wagner and would I be interested. I had just bought a '39 Playball set from Bob and at the time he and I did business together. I already by that time had acquired the Wagner I currently own, and between having to come up with another $25K (his price for the Wagner:eek:) coupled with my concern whether a Wagner in such condition might be a fake, I told Bob I needed some time to think about it. While I was taking that time, he sold the lot to Mastro.

[barrysloate]

Perhaps I've merely forgotten, but I would like to know the background story of why the Plank was correctly assigned an AUTH, and why the Wagner got an 8. Two cards cut from the same cloth (hey, that was a good one), but treated entirely differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps I've merely forgotten, but I would like to know the background story of why the Plank was correctly assigned an AUTH, and why the Wagner got an 8. Two cards cut from the same cloth (hey, that was a good one), but treated entirely differently.

Because the Wagner was PSA's flagship card.

[barrysloate]

Because the Wagner was PSA's flagship card.

If so, not a criteria for grading a card. A card should be assessed by its merits; its importance is irrelevant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If so, not a criteria for grading a card. A card should be assessed by its merits; its importance is irrelevant.

It's hard to start a grading company by rejecting a card. :)

[benjulmag]

Perhaps I've merely forgotten, but I would like to know the background story of why the Plank was correctly assigned an AUTH, and why the Wagner got an 8. Two cards cut from the same cloth (hey, that was a good one), but treated entirely differently.

You're searching for logic where there is none to be found.

[barrysloate]

You're searching for logic where there is none to be found.

Well it's due time that PSA starts applying logic to its fullest extent. A T206 Wagner is graded by the same standards as a T206 Nattress. No difference.

And enjoyed our time together yesterday.:)

[barrysloate]

It's hard to start a grading company by rejecting a card. :)

Giving the Wagner an AUTH wouldn't be rejecting it. And they could have set the tone for their new grading business that we will strive to get this thing right. Never has a business started off on worse footing than grading that card an 8. Shameful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Giving the Wagner an AUTH wouldn't be rejecting it. And they could have set the tone for their new grading business that we will strive to get this thing right. Never has a business started off on worse footing than grading that card an 8. Shameful.

Unfortunately, their enormous success starting from that foundation speaks for itself.

I don't think AUTH came in until years later, could be wrong.

[barrysloate]

Unfortunately, their enormous success starting from that foundation speaks for itself.

I don't think AUTH came in until years later, could be wrong.

You may be right about that. So back then a trimmed card couldn't be slabbed, it would have had to been rejected. Interesting dilemma.

[Leon]

You may be right about that. So back then a trimmed card couldn't be slabbed, it would have had to been rejected. Interesting dilemma.

They should have started their grading at a grade of TRIMMED and then go from there. Wouldn't that have been the correct way to do it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

They should have started their grading at a grade of TRIMMED and then go from there. Wouldn't that have been the correct way to do it?

In The Card, if I recall right, Bill Hughes said there was a consensus that they had to grade it given the context as the card being used to launch the business.

[barrysloate]

They should have started their grading at a grade of TRIMMED and then go from there. Wouldn't that have been the correct way to do it?

Yes, that would have worked fine. Coins that are say in otherwise Fine condition, but have been cleaned, burnished, or whatever, are not given a numerical graded but are slabbed as "Fine Details".

Perhaps the Wagner could have been labeled "NR MT/MT Details."

[tedzan]

Ted,

I remember that show well. I also remember some people at the time speculating that the Wagner Mastro had was the oversized one (currently at the HOF) that was trimmed down to make it a Nr-Mt card.

Speaking of regrets, I certainly have some from that episode. Bob Sevchuck, the person who sold the cards to Mastro, first called me to tell me he had en route a Nr-Mt Wagner and would I be interested. I had just bought a '39 Playball set from Bob and at the time he and I did business together. I already by that time had acquired the Wagner I currently own, and between having to come up with another $25K (his price for the Wagner:eek:) coupled with my concern whether a Wagner in such condition might be a fake, I told Bob I needed some time to think about it. While I was taking that time, he sold the lot to Mastro.


Corey......this is quite a story.

Reminds me of regrets which still haunt me of an attractive girl I met in my youth, which I let get away :)

Bob Sevchuck used to come up with some great finds out there on Long Island (NY).

Actually, I find it very interesting that a good number of Wagner cards have emanated from the Long Island
area. Perhaps, it had something to do with American Lithographic Co. founder, Joseph P. Knapp, who had a
vacation home in nearby Bellport, Long Island (NY).

Hope to see you at the National.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Bpm0014]

It's hard to start a grading company by rejecting a card.

hahahahahaha

[1952boyntoncollector]

I wonder if the PSA Auth population category is exploding in cards across the board..

[darwinbulldog]

And I wonder how many people have started buying up PSA A cards this summer, realizing the cards are frequently identical in condition to those that sell for 100x as much.

[benjulmag]

Corey......this is quite a story.

Reminds me of regrets which still haunt me of an attractive girl I met in my youth, which I let get away :)

Bob Sevchuck used to come up with some great finds out there on Long Island (NY).

Actually, I find it very interesting that a good number of Wagner cards have emanated from the Long Island
area. Perhaps, it had something to do with American Lithographic Co. founder, Joseph P. Knapp, who had a
vacation home in nearby Bellport, Long Island (NY).

Hope to see you at the National.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

I plan to be there Ted. I'll look forward to catching up with you.

[drcy]

I think they should relabel the card (I would think it's obvious the card should be labeled accurately), but that it wouldn't be a financial issue for PSA as the card will likely retain it's value (though that's a question to be tested).

The card is unique, so 8 to AUTH valuation change (or lack thereof) on that exception-to-the-rule isn't a general test.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion most or all of the value now is in the card's notoriety. I don't think putting it in an AUTH flip would matter.

[drcy]

In my opinion most or all of the value now is in the card's notoriety. I don't think putting it in an AUTH flip would matter.

I actually think the card's value will go down in value with time. The notoriety and famous history is part of the mystique, but so was that it was the "highest grade Wagner."

[Peter_Spaeth]

I actually think the card's value will go down in value with time. The notoriety and famous history is part of the mystique, but so was that it was the "highest grade Wagner."

Its value has shot straight up despite everyone including every purchaser since Copeland knowing it was sheet cut and trimmed. Kendrick could flip it now for 3x what he paid I bet.

[glchen]

Looks like the PSA 8 is back in the pop report again.

[benjulmag]

Its value has shot straight up despite everyone including every purchaser since Copeland knowing it was sheet cut and trimmed. Kendrick could flip it now for 3x what he paid I bet.

Not sure that is entirely accurate. Certainly there were those accusations, which PSA was vigorously denying. I have heard that David Hall at one of PSA's annual gatherings for their top customers made an impassioned defense of the accuracy of the "8' grade, arguing that because those doubters haven't seen the card out of the slab as he had, his opinion should carry the most weight.

So now if in fact the card is re holdered as an "A" AND SOLD WITH THAT LABEL ON IT, IMO that is a materially different fact circumstance and I would be hesitant to predict the outcome. Accompanying this scenario would be as time went on there will be less talk of it being the highest graded Wagner. So even if it did hold its value today, that does not necessarily portend what its value might be in the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not sure that is entirely accurate. Certainly there were those accusations, which PSA was vigorously denying. I have heard that David Hall at one of PSA's annual gatherings for their top customers made an impassioned defense of the accuracy of the "8' grade, arguing that because those doubters haven't seen the card out of the slab as he had, his opinion should carry the most weight.

So now if in fact the card is re holdered as an "A" AND SOLD WITH THAT LABEL ON IT, IMO that is a materially different fact circumstance and I would be hesitant to predict the outcome. Accompanying this scenario would be as time went on there will be less talk of it being the highest graded Wagner. So even if it did hold its value today, that does not necessarily portend what its value might be in the future.

I would bet anything Gidwitz (spelling?), Siegel and Kendrick and anyone else I have left out knew very well what the deal was. Maybe the general public didn't entirely but so what. It's "The Card." It's infamous.

[PolarBear]

In my opinion most or all of the value now is in the card's notoriety. I don't think putting it in an AUTH flip would matter.


Agreed. I think this particular card transcends the holder.

[perezfan]

Yes the card has achieved notoriety that transcends the assigned grade. But aside from its real or imaginary monetary value, PSA built its entire foundation on a Sheet-Cut Card that was improperly assigned a numerical grade.

They could actually restore credibility and confidence by correcting their epic mistake. But as evidenced in post #1 of the linked BO thread, they will not do so...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1302161

The response from Steve Sloan might be even more smug and less honest than his infamous Letter, which assumes no responsibility or accountability for PSA’s hundreds of missed alterations (which continue to pour in).

Sloan states that “No change to the population report is necessary”... despite Mastro admitting under oath that he trimmed the card. How any company can thrive (or even survive) with that tragic level of honesty, integrity, and lack of customer service is beyond me. I guess money really does trump everything, including conclusive proof and simply doing what’s right.

[atx840]

Can't recall why I made this years ago but here it is.

https://i.imgur.com/NsgkfiK.jpg

[benjulmag]

The "8" on the holder is part and parcel of the card's notoriety. Replace that with an "A", you have a different product. We are in a hobby where form trumps substance. How many of the people who own 8's, 9's and 10's care if the card is trimmed as long as they have the almighty slab telling them and everybody who will listen to them what they want to hear? IMO nobody is going to consider paying $10M for the card re holdered as an "A". Imagine that were to happen and the next time the person shows it off to his high heeled friends at a cocktail party some guest in a loud voice asks what is so special about a card graded an "A"? I'd love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction on the card owner's face in that instance.

I believe the value of this card is a package deal where the number on the flip is part of the package.

[perezfan]

Great insight Corey....

But it still needs to be changed!

[tedzan]

Deleted.

[1952boyntoncollector]

And I wonder how many people have started buying up PSA A cards this summer, realizing the cards are frequently identical in condition to those that sell for 100x as much.

id actually rather have touched up A card with white borders and looks not trimmed even if trimmed and not creased up versus a lot of PSA 1s that are all beat up and tangled up and creased

Lots of A cards do sell more for '1's and '2's