PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

[Johnny630]

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

Mastro and Allen.

[Johnny630]

Only Two ?? Ugh

Pretty good Odds for the card doctors

[oldjudge]

Mastro and Allen.

If all they did was doctor cards they never would have been prosecuted

[Kenny Cole]

Mark Theotickos and John Rogers too, although Rogers was mostly a forger and seller of fake items. William Boehm got 2 years probation for being part of the Mastro scam machine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If all they did was doctor cards they never would have been prosecuted

Minor stuff, eh

[oldjudge]

Do you think I'm wrong?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you think I'm wrong?

No. But I think it's easier to prove nowadays or at least the part of it that left a paper trail. If Brent just dances away after paying some of the money back, I'd be surprised, though I've been surprised before.

[Kenny Cole]

He could maybe fade alterations by refunding although I tend to doubt it. I don't see him dancing away from any cards that can be proven to have been shilled. However, I too have been surprised before.

[Johnny630]

I’m I the only one who thinks nothing will stop guys from altering cards in the future ? We have already been shown they can’t be prevented on a regular basis by TPG Ing

[CobbSpikedMe]

I’m I the only one who thinks nothing will stop guys from altering cards in the future ? We have already been shown they can’t be prevented on a regular basis by TPG Ing

I don't think anyone thinks that something will happen to stop guys from altering cards in the future. There will always be scammers in the hobby and folks that alter cards for financial gain. I don't think that is in debate.

[whitehse]

I don't think anyone thinks that something will happen to stop guys from altering cards in the future. There will always be scammers in the hobby and folks that alter cards for financial gain. I don't think that is in debate.

The only thing that will stop the scammers is to take away the financial gain but of course we know that will not happen because too many collectors NEED the best of the best (as long as the flip says its the best regardless if the card isnt). As for me, I do not buy high dollar cards but you can make darn sure the next card I buy that is going to cost me more than the price of a cup of coffee will be given a thorough once over where I am convinced no work has been done to it. I know I will spend a few more minutes reviewing any potential card I purchase than the TPG's will do and if I am fooled then its on me.

Collectors must educate themselves or else they will rely on the TPGers and continue to get burned like they have been.

[Johnny630]

The only thing that will stop the scammers is to take away the financial gain but of course we know that will not happen because too many collectors NEED the best of the best (as long as the flip says its the best regardless if the card isnt). As for me, I do not buy high dollar cards but you can make darn sure the next card I buy that is going to cost me more than the price of a cup of coffee will be given a thorough once over where I am convinced no work has been done to it. I know I will spend a few more minutes reviewing any potential card I purchase than the TPG's will do and if I am fooled then its on me.

Collectors must educate themselves or else they will rely on the TPGers and continue to get burned like they have been.

Agree does anyone else think at this point that PSA’s brand has lost its relevance in being able to consistently determine wether a Card has been altered or not?
To me they have ......registry and pop mean nothing to me...their pop report has always been inaccurate
Can we have a New Pop Report By Newport Beach on altered Cards in holders with number grades

[Republicaninmass]

Lines will be 2x longer than last year

[Johnny630]

Lines will be 2x longer than last year

Agree Sir number 1 thing in this hobby, despite what people say is MONEY...greed has corrupted it.....we all know and have known for years so it continues to be the Wild West Absolutely No Rules No Morals Prove It Zero Consequences
We all know what we are getting into.l....it’s sad but it is what it is.....

Sometimes You Just Have to Go Your Own Way

[barrysloate]

So the hobby will move forward with the recognition by all or most collectors that there will be altered cards regularly offered for sale. In a logical world, any hint that a high grade card might be altered would result in a deep discount, since most collectors would recognize the high probability of not getting an actual high grade card.

But in the bizarro way our hobby has evolved, those very cards will continue to set world records. Why is it that no matter how many times I think about this, I still can't seem to accept the stupidity of it.

It's like selling horse meat and calling it filet mignon. It's selling spam and calling it caviar. It makes no f#cking sense.

[Kenny Cole]

So the hobby will move forward with the recognition by all or most collectors that there will be altered cards regularly offered for sale. In a logical world, any hint that a high grade card might be altered would result in a deep discount, since most collectors would recognize the high probability of not getting an actual high grade card.

But in the bizarro way our hobby has evolved, those very cards will continue to set world records. Why is it that no matter how many times I think about this, I still can't seem to accept the stupidity of it.

It's like selling horse meat and calling it filet mignon. It's selling spam and calling it caviar. It makes no f#cking sense.

Certain people buy the flip, not the card. So long as the number on the flip is high enough, some people will be happy to far overpay even if the actual card looks like it went through the garbage disposal. If you look at it that way, it makes a certain kind of sense. It is both bizarre and more than a little sad from my perspective. But unfortunately, that does not make it any less true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So the hobby will move forward with the recognition by all or most collectors that there will be altered cards regularly offered for sale. In a logical world, any hint that a high grade card might be altered would result in a deep discount, since most collectors would recognize the high probability of not getting an actual high grade card.

But in the bizarro way our hobby has evolved, those very cards will continue to set world records. Why is it that no matter how many times I think about this, I still can't seem to accept the stupidity of it.

It's like selling horse meat and calling it filet mignon. It's selling spam and calling it caviar. It makes no f#cking sense.

Because you won't accept that the flip, not the card, is now the commodity for some people.

[VintageBen]

SGC's lines will be longer this yr, because I think their computer system crashed last year.... all i know is that there wasn't any buzz near the SGC compound

[Republicaninmass]

SGC's lines will be longer this yr, because I think their computer system crashed last year.... all i know is that there wasn't any buzz near the SGC compound

Reduced by not taking autographs though

[pokerplyr80]

When I went 2 years ago I don't remember ever seeing many people lined up at SGC, BGS had a decent crowd. I waited 20 or 30 minutes to have a couple modern cards reviewed. And the line at PSA was practically out of the building the entire time. As many in the hobby haven't even heard of this scandal I wouldn't expect much to change.

[mechanicalman]

As flawed as they are, I think the TPGs will do just fine at the National, as they still represent a better opinion than a biased seller. Case in point: there’s a dude selling a 51 Bowman Mantle on a popular Internet chat board. He repeatedly calls it “centered” even though, it may be, at best, 75/25 on the x axis. So, as long as sellers continue to oversell their cards with puffery and spin, there will be a market for third party grading to provide an objective, if not occasionally inaccurate, opinion.

[barrysloate]

Because you won't accept that the flip, not the card, is now the commodity for some people.

I understand the reason, but a flip is not a commodity. It's a piece of paper with some information typed on it. The baseball card is the commodity. That's why I call it a bizarro world.

When I decide to sell my Honda CR-V, I'm going to put a "Rolls Royce for Sale" sign on it. I'll let you know how I do.

[oldjudge]

As flawed as they are, I think the TPGs will do just fine at the National, as they still represent a better opinion than a biased seller. Case in point: there’s a dude selling a 51 Bowman Mantle on a popular Internet chat board. He repeatedly calls it “centered” even though, it may be, at best, 75/25 on the x axis. So, as long as sellers continue to oversell their cards with puffery and spin, there will be a market for third party grading to provide an objective, if not occasionally inaccurate, opinion.

+1

[perezfan]

So the hobby will move forward with the recognition by all or most collectors that there will be altered cards regularly offered for sale. In a logical world, any hint that a high grade card might be altered would result in a deep discount, since most collectors would recognize the high probability of not getting an actual high grade card.

But in the bizarro way our hobby has evolved, those very cards will continue to set world records. Why is it that no matter how many times I think Abs out this, I still can't seem to accept the stupidity of it.

It's like selling horse meat and calling it filet mignon. It's selling spam and calling it caviar. It makes no f#cking sense.

It’s depressing as hell, and was the master plan of the TPGs. The money-driven “bad apples” in the collecting world are driven by ego and greed... and they were ripe for the picking. Now this mess is what we’re left with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I understand the reason, but a flip is not a commodity. It's a piece of paper with some information typed on it. The baseball card is the commodity. That's why I call it a bizarro world.

When I decide to sell my Honda CR-V, I'm going to put a "Rolls Royce for Sale" sign on it. I'll let you know how I do.

Wrong. For many out there, the flip is the commodity now. Accept it, stop resisting, deal with it lol.

[barrysloate]

Of course I understand it Peter. I'm simply rejecting it with every ounce of energy I have left.

[Peter_Spaeth]

These are assets, son, not baseball cards. Just ask the visionary from Lake Oswego.

[Jewish-collector]

Sometimes You Just Have to Go Your Own Way

Sometimes you gotta say WTF

[Jim65]

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

In some collecting areas (Art, Books,etc) restoration and conservation are totally acceptable so unless there is alaw specifically saying doctoring baseball cards is illegal, I can't see why any Prosecutor would even bother trying to convict one of these guys.

[Leon]

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

There will be long lines at the TPG tables at the National. Just like usual is my guess.

In some collecting areas (Art, Books,etc) restoration and conservation are totally acceptable so unless there is alaw specifically saying doctoring baseball cards is illegal, I can't see why any Prosecutor would even bother trying to convict one of these guys.

[Jim65]

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

There will be long lines at the TPG tables at the National. Just like usual is my guess.

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

[Leon]

If those art restorations aren't disclosed, and they are known about, they are still fraudulent. (in my opinion)

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

[darwinbulldog]

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

[D.P.Johnson]

I imagine it won't be long before some auction house uses altered cards as an asset:

"Here we have the hobby's finest example of this item in existence. Professionally restored by world renowned conservator J. Moser, Inc."

Blah, Blah, Blah....

[Copa7]

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D 9TpKs7DKsto%26fbclid%3DIwAR00ERTU9F1tLBNVtQZX0zzpj Lj51JTCx9JhGcWzexlpTwbusvclbomn1O4&h=AT01TPGCCjCmwVyx9Qlf-Q9o4FrFQb8RAuH_U-z1S__AYW4cmuBWJn6zBhD4K-UDF0SuqR2VgWow4JV2qcuz8LTSRke2kf87NvnsgQ8aiN9DNGEH S171EG0h3cyqUTdWxRyQMRqowA

I think PSA will have shorter lines, at least with intelligent collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D 9TpKs7DKsto%26fbclid%3DIwAR00ERTU9F1tLBNVtQZX0zzpj Lj51JTCx9JhGcWzexlpTwbusvclbomn1O4&h=AT01TPGCCjCmwVyx9Qlf-Q9o4FrFQb8RAuH_U-z1S__AYW4cmuBWJn6zBhD4K-UDF0SuqR2VgWow4JV2qcuz8LTSRke2kf87NvnsgQ8aiN9DNGEH S171EG0h3cyqUTdWxRyQMRqowA

I think PSA will have shorter lines, at least with intelligent collectors.

Oxymoron. :)

[topcat61]

So the hobby will move forward with the recognition by all or most collectors that there will be altered cards regularly offered for sale. In a logical world, any hint that a high grade card might be altered would result in a deep discount, since most collectors would recognize the high probability of not getting an actual high grade card.

But in the bizarro way our hobby has evolved, those very cards will continue to set world records. Why is it that no matter how many times I think about this, I still can't seem to accept the stupidity of it.

It's like selling horse meat and calling it filet mignon. It's selling spam and calling it caviar. It makes no f#cking sense.

I always thought an altered card was worth 10% of it's original value? also though that Dr. James Beckett had all this nailed down as "industry standards"? Maybe you can help me understand something. Beckett used dealers financial accounts dent to the company to come up with a statistical formula to calculate a cards worth...is that what PSA does? Would it be a conflict of interest for PSA to grade cards and come up with a value for their graded cards in their price guide? Thanks.

[frankbmd]

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D 9TpKs7DKsto%26fbclid%3DIwAR00ERTU9F1tLBNVtQZX0zzpj Lj51JTCx9JhGcWzexlpTwbusvclbomn1O4&h=AT01TPGCCjCmwVyx9Qlf-Q9o4FrFQb8RAuH_U-z1S__AYW4cmuBWJn6zBhD4K-UDF0SuqR2VgWow4JV2qcuz8LTSRke2kf87NvnsgQ8aiN9DNGEH S171EG0h3cyqUTdWxRyQMRqowA

I think PSA will have shorter lines, at least with intelligent collectors.

Oxymoron. :)

Self-aggrandizement:D

[Johnny630]

This vicious cycle repeats itself ever decade or so......
Has been the case for years........ sadly for many this isn't a Hobby it's a Business/Industry......It's the Wild Wild West ....No Regulations..... No morals..little to no consequences for ones actions.... We all know this, with knowledge, experience, and patience we can avoid most of the garbage.

It's in PSA best interest to keep quiet, they will, and it will work for them. Dealers they will keep hush, nothing to see here everything is fine. Auctions Houses Same as above... Repeat Cycle Later at unknown time.
It's all about the Benjamin's Nothing Else Matters

[bobbyw8469]

I always thought an altered card was worth 10% of it's original value? also though that Dr. James Beckett had all this nailed down as "industry standards"? Maybe you can help me understand something. Beckett used dealers financial accounts dent to the company to come up with a statistical formula to calculate a cards worth...is that what PSA does? Would it be a conflict of interest for PSA to grade cards and come up with a value for their graded cards in their price guide? Thanks.

Not true at all......the "altered" card arena varies in price depending upon how nice the card looks.

[BobC]

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

I have only submitted cards for grading once, maybe twice, in all my years, and both times was with SGC because they were at the show I attended and PSA wasn't. I don't recollect everything on the submission form, but definitely don't remember any specific question or inquiry asking if I knew or suspected the card(s) were altered or doctored or if I had done such alterations or doctoring myself. I would assume the PSA and BGS submission forms are similarly missing such inquires as well. The point is, the TPGs don't ask. And without such a specific inquiry, exactly what law or rule does a card doctorer break in submitting cards for grading? Isn't one of the purposes that people submit cards to TPGs for to determine not just their grade, but also their validity and authenticity?

The TPGs advertise that they are experts in reviewing and grading cards, and determining the validity and authenticity of those same cards, and charge for that service. And then base their charge on the underlying value of the cards themselves, so they already start out with an intrinsic bias to have cards they review and grade get the highest grades, and therefore values, possible. They make more money that way! And the grading has led to the phenomenon known as the "Registry", specifically in regards to PSA graded cards, and has caused prices for such highly graded PSA examples of cards to fetch some ridiculous prices by high end collectors merely to get a slight bump in their overall registry set grade. And then you have all the dealers who exacerbate the problem by jumping on the bandwagon using the old "all boats rise with the tide" mentality, and figure that if a high end example of a certain card they are selling in a lower grade jumps in price, then all the lower grades of that same card, and specifically the one they were selling, should see increases in asking prices also.

The bottom line is that the TPGs grade these cards and do so by giving their "opinions", not a 100% concrete guarantee that they are right and always accurate. And on top of that, each of the major TPGs tend to have their own grading rules, biases and idiosyncrasies. Add to that the fact that there is also a lot of discord among collectors as to exactly what is and isn't allowable as to alterations and doctoring and suddenly that threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt" may not be so easy to obtain. And if you throw in comparisons to other hobbies and collecting activities like comic books or the art world where restorations and conservation are allowed, it can muddy the waters even more. In the case of art work that is restored, the piece is still authentic and one of a kind, while a forgery of that same piece is a fake. In the case of cards, there are typically many more than just one single example of a card existing, but even if doctored, altered, conserved, or whatever you want to call it, the card is still authentic and has some value to someone. In those cases the grade is what gives a particular card a higher deemed value due to its condition rarity, not necessarily its actual existence rarity.

In trying to convict a card doctorer of a criminal act you will likely need to be able to bring in, and prove, an overall conspiracy among the card doctorers, TPGs and dealers all working in conjunction and knowledge of what each of them are doing in regards to taking advantage of the collecting public. The fact that there is not a single, agreed upon and followed grading standard and no oversight or peer review of the various TPG entities does not help the argument against them. The dealers can claim they merely took consignments from doctorers and relied upon the grades by the TPGs as to the vaildity and authenticity of the cards they were selling. They were not paid to authenticate the cards and merely act as a vehicle for their sale. The TPGs will say they reviewed the cards submitted and subjected them to their own internal grading standards, and issued their grades (opinions) accordingly, and didn't necessarily detect anything to make them think a particular card was altered/restored. And the card doctorers will merely try to claim they submitted cards for upgrades and that even if they did do some alterations/restoration, they rely upon the TPGs to determine what grade they felt the cards should be at and what, if any, restoration/alteration activities were found and detected that would note the card is not authentic. Kind of like a "don't ask, don't tell, mentality where the parties involved just go about what they normally do and don't ask or tell anyone else what they are doing or what they suspect. None of them want to rock the boat and they all want to continue making money.

Now if there were some type of nationally recognized group, independent of the TPGs, that set down the standards for grading and exactly what was and wasn't allowed, including alterations and restorations, you'd get better results. Such an independent group would basically dictate to the TPGS what they should use as standards and so on, and then license and periodically test the TPGS to make sure they were upholding the standards and so on. Then and only then would you begin to have some conformity in the grading and valuation of cards. Right now, PSA can do what they please, within reason. So can SGC and BGS in calling the shots on their grading.

All these before and after scans of cards the Blowout forum guys are finding are absolutely fantastic, but are they really more than coincidental? I know, I know, there are so many of them that one has to believe it has gone beyond a mere coincidence and I for one am fairly certain it isn't a complete coincidence either. But even after listing all the suspected cards that may potentially have been altered, there is a strong possibility that many of them were not actually altered. So what happens when people start pointing out the ones that weren't altered and using that as evidence that these were not all doctored cards being submitted unknowingly? And even the scans being shown are merely scans. We've all had occasions to question scans and what does and doesn't show up, etc., etc. It can be argued that scans are not always perfect and a completely reliable source for before and after comparisons, unless maybe the before and after scans can be shown to have been taken using the exact same scanner and with the exact same settings.
But how do you prove that? The scans may point out some of the similarities and differences between cards shown, but if the marks and such are on certain cards, who is to say there aren't also similar marks on others of that same card. What if a card doctorer were to bring in other examples of similar, say ungraded cards, with similar markings and such to the ones the BO guys are using to show what they believe to be before and after pictures of the same card. Let's face it, if the card doctorers are that good that they can remove things to improve a particular card, what is to stop them from adding things to another card to make it look like another one they had doctored? Of course it may not be possible with some of the really, really rare cards, but what about say a T-206 Cobb with a red background? I'm betting the doctors could find a different example to work their magic and make another one look like it may have been the one the BO guys are saying was actually resubmitted. And if it was a really rare card where the doctors couldn't easily find another example, they could bring in the argument of the Gretzky-Wagner card that not only did the alteration not devalue the card and damage the owner, but that it had entirely the opposite effect and the value of that card was significantly improved. All this may make it extremely difficult to convict anyone criminally.

And the fact that everything is interrelated among the parties involved does not make the TPGs not catching these alterations and restorations beside the point. That the TPGs each have their own internal grading standards highlights that there is no standard set of guidelines among the TPGs, and therefore the collecting community as well. And because there are no set guidelines and agreement among all the card hobby community, how do you get a group of peers from all walks of life to convict someone of something that the specific community they operate in can't agree upon 100%?

Leon, I seem to remember quite a while back there was a thread once where you recommended using a certain type of art gum eraser I believe to remove light pencil writing on a card to someone. if I'm wrong and it wasn't you, I apologize, but the point is that someone had suggested it and some collectors didn't feel that lightly erasing light pencil marks from the back of a card was really alteration, while others were vehemently against it. And there is the problem, not everyone is in agreement on what is and isn't okay, and therefore what does and what does not effect value. I am not for the card doctoring myself, unless it is disclosed. Luckily I tend to be a low-end collector grade-wise so I'm not as fearful of my collection being infected with a lot of altered cards. Will be interesting to see how these things shake out for the card collecting community, that is for sure. But as for people going to jail, not so sure that will actually happen. Even with the Mastro convictions, those were for shill bidding, not for card doctoring!

[steve B]

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

Way back, there was a guy advertising "officially government authorized engraved portraits of the father of our country George Washington Only $1"

What he sent was a postage stamp with a Washington portrait stuck to a cardboard frame.

He did time.

[Leon]

BobC
First of all I am usually wrong at this technical law stuff, it seems.
At first I believed the way you do. Now I don't. I see the pattern of fraud. What more can I say?

As for the Mastro Wagner trimming, according to what I read he went to jail in part, for doing it. It was mail fraud or at least part of the plea deal.

This is posted on the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois website, concerning the Wagner. (btw, It is me with the erasers, I love them.)

"The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card."

.

[packs]

If you knowingly altered a card and took steps to hide that alteration and then sold your card to a buyer while marketing it as anything other than altered, you are defrauding the person you're selling your card to.

Alter your cards any way you want to, just make it clear what you've done at the time of sale and nobody takes issue with that. Any person who brings up the art world re: conservation or restoration is missing the very basic and ultimately most important aspect of that kind of restoration: it is disclosed to everyone.

[barrysloate]

Bob C- with regard to all the detective work the blowout forum did, I think every card in their before/after comparisons were altered. There were no examples, to my memory, of cards that were merely resubmitted and got a bump. They showed the diagnostic points that were changed by the card doctors. Maybe that's a small point based on your comprehensive post, but wanted to point it out.

[BobC]

BobC
First of all I am usually wrong at this technical law stuff, it seems.
At first I believed the way you do. Now I don't. I see the pattern of fraud. What more can I say?

As for the Mastro Wagner trimming, according to what I read he went to jail in part, for doing it. It was mail fraud.

This is posted on the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois website, concerning the Wagner. (btw, It is me with the erasers, I love them.)

"The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card."

.


I'm with you Leon, you can see the patterns of fraud. I'm also not an attorney, just an accountant, but I've learned and seen over the years how what you think may be a slam dunk isn't necessarily the case when you start pulling out all the facts. Plus, if you try to convict someone criminally you'll need to get a jury of peers, and I doubt if any defense attorney would allow such a jury to get stacked with card collectors who have much knowledge, and opinions, about this. That is where I can see all the vague standards and inconsistent opinions that our hobby has in regards to alterations and restorations can work to benefit card doctors. The TPGs have set themselves up as so-called experts in our hobby, and in so doing, have become integral into the valuation of the little pieces of cardboard we like to collect. But who exactly gave them this designation and power, unfortunately the collecting community did by buying into their claims and services. Initially it was because of the need to get some safety from the "wild west" that used to exist in buying on the internet and not knowing how you may be getting ripped off by an unreputable dealer claiming something was what it was not. I think the original idea was to at least make sure something being purchased online was real, and not so much in such a high grade. That was where/when the "buy the card, not the holder" mantra made its appearance. To his day I still hear some collectors saying to forget about the TPGs givings grades, just guarantee the card is authentic and they can grade it themselves. Then as the idea of the registry started climbing, along with the prices for highly-graded cards taking off, that part of the grading system took over to driving the hobby and has gotten us to where it is now.

I also am aware that Mastro had to allocute to what was done to the Wagner card, but if I remember correctly, that is not the integral charge he got sentenced for, it was the shill bidding. You and I may find it abhorrent that the card was cut from from a strip in modern time and that it was never put into an actual pack of cigarettes and issued back in 1909 or so. But think about this, you have a jury of people who are not knowledgeable collectors and a defense attorney argues and asks that despite the fact the card had been cut from a strip in more recent years, is the card still not in fact an authentic T-206 Wagner card. And the answer is yes. He/she then asks if all the original T-206 cards had not also been printed in sheets and/or strips originally and then been cut from those at one time or another, and again the answer is yes. So he/she then asks, if it is possible that this one Wagner card was cut from such a strip long after the original issuance of these cards in cigarette packs in 1909, how do you know that none of the other ones that exist in the hobby out there today were not also cut from a strip or sheet long after their original issuance in cigarette packs? And if even so, the defense attorney may also argue what difference does it really make then, it is an authentic T-206 Wagner card. He/she could then go on about strip cards and how pretty much all cards are printed in sheets and then cut from them. Over the years people have found and purchased uncut sheets of cards, and likely more than once or twice have cut the cards out hoping to then submit them for high grades to TPGs. Do the TPGs have a way to really catch those and declare them as altered or trimmed? You and I both know the answer to that and if there are possibly any such graded cards out in the hobby today that were likely cut from a sheet long after they were originally to have been issued in packs. But can we prove it, and maybe more importantly, can we also definitively prove which ones in the hobby are or are not cut from sheets after they were supposed to have been???

So if all those technically trimmed cards may be floating around in the hobby, and no one seems to really care because they are authentic, exactly what is wrong with what was done in regards to the T-206 Wagner? Especially when they then ask the current owner to testify what he paid for the card and what he has been offered for it. As a jurist, exactly what harm can you accuse the person who cut that Wagner card from the strip of when the value has increased so much over the years. Exactly who was harmed??? You and I could then testify that because the Wagner card was not issued in a cigarette pack like it should have been over 100 years ago that to a collector/hobby purist its intrinsic value has been diminished, and the defense attorney will ask the stenographer to go back and re-read the testimony of the card's current owner as to what he paid for it and what he has since been offered for it. See the dilemma? There are different people/collectors with many differing thoughts and opinions on what constitutes alterations and what is and is not acceptable.

Until we can get a unified group/organization, independent of the various TPGs and their diverse grading standards and systems, to establish a single, uniform set up grading standards and rules and to force the TPGs to adhere to that unified grading system and subject themselves to outside independent review to assure they are actually performing their grading services in compliance with those standards, we'll always have uncertainty and differences in the collecting community. And because of that, it will always be hard to accuse someone of doing something illegal if there is no set standards or rules to be followed in the first place. And the chances of the TPGs allowing someone else to tell them what to do.................good luck with that!

And I did know you had posted about art gum erasers, and don't disagree with you at all. But there are others that think that is totally wrong and considered altering a card to erase such pencil marks. And just like that difference among collectors in regards to erasing pencil marks, you'll find differences of opinion among collectors about whether or not they have an issue with a card being cut and put in a pack, or if it was later on cut from a sheet or strip. It is still the same card, same paper, same printing ink and process! And if I was a defense attorney, I could also see arguing what is the difference then say in regards to the cards of the Black Swamp find? They were supposed to have been distributed and given out with candy back in the very early 1900's, but instead, some store owner never distributed them and left them in a box in their attic for about 100 years. So someone could argue that they were never issued as they were originally intended to either, but it obviously hasn't had a negative impact on their value. Granted, the ones that have been sold so far were then graded and labeled as part of the Black Swamp find, so I guess that could be construed as giving notice to potential buyers that they were never issued as they should have been. But what about those ones that were not graded and sold? I was under the understanding that not all of the heirs decided to sell their cards and that some asked to have their share of the cards given to them. So if one of them was to later on go to sell one of their cards and not have it graded and marked as part of the Black Swamp find, would they technically be guilty of not having properly disclosed that the card was not issued/distributed properly when it should have been?

And I still guess the biggest issue is whether or not there is actually a written/stated law somewhere that specifically says that selling an altered/trimmed/ restored baseball card is illegal, or that you have to state such when selling it. For now, sellers/dealers have relied upon the TPGs to do the independent grading and authenticating of cards, which the TPGs have claimed an expertise for and that the hobby community has blindly believed and bought into for years. And if the hobby community is shown to almost totally rely solely upon these TPGs for this service (ie: "buy the holder, not the card"), if they grade and authentic a card, then that is apparently what the hobby community is agreeing to as the standard and determining factor of a card's authenticity. So if in that case a TPG looks at a card that does not in their opinion appear to be altered/restored/trimmed, even if it actually may have been altered in some miniscule manner like erasing an errant pencil mark, the hobby community has more or less always gone along with the TPGs opinion and believes that if no alteration/restoration is detectable, then none actually occurred.

Of course then you can start arguing about degrees of alteration. So if you erase a real light pencil mark and no one can tell, some might say that is okay, but removing a crease by manipulating the cardboard in some manner that does not effect the thickness/dimensions of a card, even if you still can't detect the alteration, some might then say that is not. Look at the S-74 silks. They were originally all folded when put into cigarette packs, and the white version ones with the paper advertising still attached to the backs all pretty much came with folds in them. And SGC generally down grades them because of the creases. But is that proper and correct since that is the way they were virtually all distributed in packs? And then what about the very rare few ad-backed silks that don't show any creases? It could reasonably be argued that if there was no crease in the paper backing that the silk was likely never inserted into a pack and that maybe someone working at one of the the factories just took a few home, and that is how some have survived to this day. In that case those were never distributed properly in the same manner as they should have been, so should we downgrade those and consider them as something not as originally issued also. And don't get me started on the colored version silks. They would have also been folded over when put into the cigarette packs, yet you often see them without creases. So is ironing a silk to remove the crease considered an alteration also??? See how nit-picky this can get and you can start splitting hairs as to what is and isn't allowable. And you'll never get everyone to agree on everything 100%.

Thus, without some independent party/body to oversee the hobby and set the standards that everyone ends up following, even if they don't all agree with them 100%, you'll always have trouble going after people for things they do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am an attorney and to me it's quite simple (only responding to one of Bob's many points). If you do something to a card that if the TPG knew it would not assign the card a numerical grade, submit it with the intent of deceiving the TPG into assigning the altered card a numerical grade, and then sell it in the TPG holder without disclosing the deceptive alteration, that is textbook fraud. And if you do that repeatedly using the mails and/or wires, that's mail and/or wire fraud in violation of federal statutes. Never mind the red herring that there is no statute specifically discussing baseball cards. Never mind the red herring about lack of complete hobby consensus. Never mind the red herring about needing a conspiracy involving the TPG. Never mind the red herring about the Wagner being sheet cut. If you're interested this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads and other than giving this summary I am not debating it yet again, sorry but I just don't have the patience.

[BobC]

Bob C- with regard to all the detective work the blowout forum did, I think every card in their before/after comparisons were altered. There were no examples, to my memory, of cards that were merely resubmitted and got a bump. They showed the diagnostic points that were changed by the card doctors. Maybe that's a small point based on your comprehensive post, but wanted to point it out.

Barry,

I don't disagree with you at all. All I was getting at was that we unfortunately do not have a standard, agreed upon set of grading standards that all TPGs follow, nor do they submit to independent third party peer reviews to ensure that they are following and executing all the required tests and applying all the standards in a consistent and proper manner, nor will they unless and until the collecting/hobby community can get together and make them, or force them out of business for not complying. And without a set and agreed upon set of standards and testing, I can see it being argued by attorneys that some card doctor has technically not done anything wrong. I also stated that I agree there is definitely something wrong with the tremendous amount of submissions being listed and all the scans the Blowout guys have found and put out for people to see. I tip my hat to them for all their detective work and we both know there are tons of doctored/altered cards included in those lists. Now is every single card in those lists doctored/altered, I honestly don't know. And I don't believe (I could be wrong) that the Blowout guys have found before and after scans for every suspect card in those listings. And that is part of the problem. If you try to accuse someone of doing that many altered/doctored cards and in going through the lists you start finding more and more that you can't definitively prove were altered in some manner, it starts to eat away at your claim and accusations to some extent. Plus, I have to believe that in a lot of cases, these card doctors are not always so successful in their attempts to improve a card. In such instances, they probably just submit the cards to whatever TPG will grade it and push them out to get as much cash as they can to go back and buy other cards to try their luck on again.

And those before and after scans the Blowout guys found are definitely damning evidence, but again, we've often mentioned on here about variances and issues with scans and differences that can occur. A good attorney would likely argue that some of the issues and such may be due to scanning issues/differences. Also, just because the Blowout guys find scans that show similar marks on supposedly the same card graded twice and bumped up with the second grading, doesn't mean that there couldn't actually be others of those exact same cards with the same, similar marks on them. So what would happen if in court a defense attorney presented ungraded cards that were the same as ones being questioned as having been altered and resubmitted for grading as evidence, and they also showed the same or similar marking as the cards in question? So then the argument could be that the two scans were possibly not of the exact same card after all and that just because two graded cards had some similar markings, it didn't definitely prove they were in fact the exact same cards. If a card doctor can remove something, can't they also possibly add something to make two separate cards look more alike? Probably not as easy, but still possible.

I'm with you and pretty confident these cards are being doctored and resubmitted, but then again like you, I've been collecting and handling cards a long time and think I'm somewhat experienced in regards to what is and isn't acceptable and probable. However, if selected for jury duty, the chances of you or I being allowed to remain on that jury by the defense counsel is about as good as the chances of a snowball surviving in hell! Have a good one.

[BobC]

I am an attorney and to me it's quite simple (only responding to one of Bob's many points). If you do something to a card that if the TPG knew it would not assign the card a numerical grade, submit it with the intent of deceiving the TPG into assigning the altered card a numerical grade, and then sell it in the TPG holder without disclosing the deceptive alteration, that is textbook fraud. And if you do that repeatedly using the mails and/or wires, that's mail and/or wire fraud in violation of federal statutes. Never mind the red herring that there is no statute specifically discussing baseball cards. Never mind the red herring about lack of complete hobby consensus. Never mind the red herring about needing a conspiracy involving the TPG. Never mind the red herring about the Wagner being sheet cut. If you're interested this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads and other than giving this summary I am not debating it yet again, sorry but I just don't have the patience.


I get you and understand. Thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Don't forget that if in the unlikely event this went as far as a trial, the prosecution will have access to lots more than Blowout scans, including emails, texts, purchase records, submission records, and more. Not to mention testimony. I don't think the fundamental facts are in serious doubt here or that there would be any problems of proof.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

Not sure why everyone jumps to criminal court about what we can prove or wont prove or wont happen or will happen . Civil court is much easier then criminal court. Go ask O.J.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Don't forget that if in the unlikely event this went as far as a trial, the prosecution will have access to lots more than Blowout scans, including emails, texts, purchase records, submission records, and more. Not to mention testimony. I don't think the fundamental facts are in serious doubt here or that there would be any problems of proof.

I agree that the proof of what occurred is available

If there are no victims either because all paid back (or able to re-sell the card for more money to someone that knows what happened and doesnt care) or wont step forward then its still a non starter.

[barrysloate]

Let me discuss my thoughts on one of Bob's points. And thanks Bob for your thorough and detailed posts.

Third party grading came into being a few decades ago offering services that included authenticating baseball cards, determining if they were original or altered, and giving them an unbiased grade. Obviously, these were services that the baseball card industry badly needed.

Truth be told, they were no better at grading cards than the average veteran collector- there was no secret formula they devised to get it right- and what's been believed for many years and demonstrated in detail recently, they didn't really have the skills or equipment to detect card alterations. They were at least able to offer an unbiased opinion, as they were neither buying or selling the card, and they were able to heat seal the cards in slabs. So they had something to offer the public.

Given their mediocre results, they shouldn't have lasted very long. But just the opposite occurred: they attained a position of tremendous power in the industry, to the point that the baseball card hobby couldn't survive without them. And although the grading was sloppy and inconsistent, the number they put on that label became sacrosanct. So much so that if a baseball card was graded at the highest level, it would consistently set world's records at auction. Prices for these cards have been simply astronomical.

Now there are genuinely rare artifacts that are worth world's record prices. But a baseball card that has been misgraded or altered to appear better than it is should not be one of them. So how has this market survived in this manner?

That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.

So maybe the great skill that TPG's have is not grading or authenticating, but making lots of people very wealthy. As such, I don't think we are going to see much change at all in the industry. Sure, a bunch of collectors may drop out or cut back their purchases, but as long as TPG's continue to mint money, nothing at all is going to change.

[Directly]

Correct me-- but wasn't the t206 Wagner card originally advertised and sold as being oversized, then trimmed and submitted for grading ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Correct me-- but wasn't the t206 Wagner card originally advertised and sold as being oversized, then trimmed and submitted for grading ?

It was sheet cut from a three card panel -- reportedly in the 1950s -- then trimmed by Mastro. So it was never worthy of a grade.

[Kenny Cole]

Let me discuss my thoughts on one of Bob's points. And thanks Bob for your thorough and detailed posts.

Third party grading came into being a few decades ago offering services that included authenticating baseball cards, determining if they were original or altered, and giving them an unbiased grade. Obviously, these were services that the baseball card industry badly needed.

Truth be told, they were no better at grading cards than the average veteran collector- there was no secret formula they devised to get it right- and what's been believed for many years and demonstrated in detail recently, they didn't really have the skills or equipment to detect card alterations. They were at least able to offer an unbiased opinion, as they were neither buying or selling the card, and they were able to heat seal the cards in slabs. So they had something to offer the public.

Given their mediocre results, they shouldn't have lasted very long. But just the opposite occurred: they attained a position of tremendous power in the industry, to the point that the baseball card hobby couldn't survive without them. And although the grading was sloppy and inconsistent, the number they put on that label became sacrosanct. So much so that if a baseball card was graded at the highest level, it would consistently set world's records at auction. Prices for these cards have been simply astronomical.

Now there are genuinely rare artifacts that are worth world's record prices. But a baseball card that has been misgraded or altered to appear better than it is should not be one of them. So how has this market survived in this manner?

That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.

So maybe the great skill that TPG's have is not grading or authenticating, but making lots of people very wealthy. As such, I don't think we are going to see much change at all in the industry. Sure, a bunch of collectors may drop out or cut back their purchases, but as long as TPG's continue to mint money, nothing at all is going to change.

One word: Registry. As I have said before, it is the perfect scam IMO.

[steve B]

Also, just because the Blowout guys find scans that show similar marks on supposedly the same card graded twice and bumped up with the second grading, doesn't mean that there couldn't actually be others of those exact same cards with the same, similar marks on them.

On a handful of the cards they've shown, there were few marks. And a few of the marks shown are possibly something that would be on several cards.

But most of the marks are actually dark fibers within the cardstock itself. They're a remnant of the papermaking process, and the odds of one piece of paper having nearly identical dark fibers in the exact same locations would be incredible. Could it happen? I suppose it can't be scientifically ruled out.
Could it happen over and over again and pretty much only on cards that have passed through one particular person? I'm willing to call that one a NO.

The modern cards they began with were serial numbered, which is pretty much certain.

Unless the companies make two identical groups of numbered inserts, there is /was at least one Fleer basketball 1/1 that two examples were found. One was fleers file or backup copy that was bought in the auction.

[barrysloate]

One word: Registry. As I have said before, it is the perfect scam IMO.

You're correct Kenny. The registry has been enormously successful, and because so many cards in the registry are altered, I agree it's not what it appears to be.

[Kenny Cole]

You're correct Kenny. The registry has been enormously successful, and because so many cards in the registry are altered, I agree it's not what it appears to be.

Let's see: it appeals to ego, vanity and elitism - check. People envy you for having spent more money for a card (that may well be altered at this point) than any other similar card that could be purchased for a very small fraction of what you paid for it were it not graded so high - check. So the next time such a card comes up (and one always will), your previous record is in danger and dictates that even more must be bid to maintain position - check. And, best of all, you actually get recognized by PSA for being so stupid, er, I mean, such a discriminating collector, if you are high on the registry - check.

Whoever came up with this scam was absolutely brilliant. It accurately reads and relies upon human nature. And, not coincidentally, it VASTLY increases the value of PSA graded cards. What could possibly go wrong?

[BobC]

So maybe the great skill that TPG's have is not grading or authenticating, but making lots of people very wealthy. As such, I don't think we are going to see much change at all in the industry. Sure, a bunch of collectors may drop out or cut back their purchases, but as long as TPG's continue to mint money, nothing at all is going to change.

Barry, on that I think you are right on the money. Because of how the TPGs have ingrained themselves in the hobby and with all the money involved, I can't see how we could get them out at this point. There is too much money tied up in the Registry, as Kenny had said and alluded to in his post. It is more than just the Registry though, as that is pretty much tied to a single TPG and the premium prices they seem to command over those for cards graded by the other TPG services. Still these other TPG services are also grading cards and obviously have altered/doctored cards in their holders as well.

Still the Registry is a major driving force behind the sometimes ridiculous price jumps we've been seeing. And that was one of the reasons I was bringing up the question as to the standards and uniformity in grading. Since the Registry behind the significant price jumps is tied to only one specific TPG, where most of these altered /doctored cards seem to be going, the fact that that TPG cannot effectively detect and tell certain types of alterations and changes to cards is basically them saying they don't see any alterations/doctoring. If that TPG finally admits they've been duped and starts to adjust and remove a few cards on their Registry, aren't they kind of setting themselves up for even bigger problems as people start demanding they remove any and all questionable cards on their Registry? You know darn well that someone with a lesser graded set on the Registry will start cross referencing these questionable cards and if they find someone with a higher rated Regsitry set than there's with any of these questionable cards as part of it, they'll be screaming bloody murder to have those questionable cards removed from that other person's Registry set. I don't know if anyone on the Registry has started doing that yet, or even thought about it, but you can bet that as this issue gets out there with more and more publicity that it is eventually going to come up from someone. And then how does this TPG respond?

If they admit to the errors and start removing cards from the Registry, how do they decide which ones do or don't get removed? Who will actually decide then which cards are definitively altered/doctored? That could lead to a huge change/problem with the Registry itself and end up making the entire Registry worthless to many current users. That in turn effects people in the market, and prices, and on and on. I can easily see why the TPG would rather say nothing and hope this blows over. The implications and negative impact it could have on their Registry, and by extension their actual business, could be irreparable to them. Not to mention a huge blow to the hobby as well and negatively impact the value of so many people's collections.

[swarmee]

I sent messages to about 8 of the guys today working on the 1948 Leaf Football set to let them know their cards are altered. PSA makes it so easy now to determine which registry owns what because of their Cert lookup now being tied into the SMR and Registry. So PSA's website improvements over the past year are making it easier for the detectives and helpers to find the owners, even if PSA won't do it properly via email/phone calls/full decertification.

I still think them doing a full-scale recall on cards by Moser, Burge, and any other card doctor PWCC has worked with is a requirement. Obviously, we're not going to catch all the auctionhouses due to lack of paper trail, but the PWCC auctions on eBay all have a paper trail that's easy to validate. It would go even better if the raw card sellers would put their cards sold to Gary and his ilk on some FTP site for the detectives to analyze. Remember, Gary has bought COMPLETE RAW SETS of some of these cards. And plenty of purchases of raw cards from our favorite consignment houses on eBay.

[BobC]

On a handful of the cards they've shown, there were few marks. And a few of the marks shown are possibly something that would be on several cards.

But most of the marks are actually dark fibers within the cardstock itself. They're a remnant of the papermaking process, and the odds of one piece of paper having nearly identical dark fibers in the exact same locations would be incredible. Could it happen? I suppose it can't be scientifically ruled out.
Could it happen over and over again and pretty much only on cards that have passed through one particular person? I'm willing to call that one a NO.

The modern cards they began with were serial numbered, which is pretty much certain.

Unless the companies make two identical groups of numbered inserts, there is /was at least one Fleer basketball 1/1 that two examples were found. One was fleers file or backup copy that was bought in the auction.

Steve, thanks for the additional insight. I didn't think or intend what I was saying to refer to all the cards on the list, just that there could be some that could possibly turn up with similar markings. Obviously if there were sequentially numbered modern cards, and the two graded cards are the same number, that is of course a dead giveaway. Still I was merely pointing out how some attorney could try to argue that the allegations that every card on the list was doctored was not correct. I was not as aware of the issue of the dark fibers in the cardstock, and that is a very telling point that you brought out that goes to show the great work done by the Blowout card guys.

And Peter, I also agree with you that what is being done is wrong and illegal, and please don't think I don't realize that. The amount of evidence seems absolutely insane and the coincidental and hard evidence seems so overwhelming that most would found it hard not to convict the people involved of some level of fraud, at the least. And you are absolutely right that if it does go that far, the prosecution will go after and obtain much, much more information in their case. But that is where it gets even more interesting in that what will that information end up showing? Based on what little we've really seen so far, who exactly does everyone think is truly at fault? Obviously the card doctor(s) are the primary targets, but what about all the other parties involved, sellers, TPGs, dealers, they all have benefited and profited from the exploits of these card doctors it seems. To what level, they did or did not know about the exploits of these card doctors, or should have known, could be devastating. How many times have I seen and read threads where someone mentions contacting these sellers, dealers and TPGs to warn them about the nefarious exploits of these card doctors, shillers, and on and on. And then there are the follow-up posts where everyone complains about how it ends up being business as usual and nothing is ever done. So if something concrete finally does come from this latest issue, what can these dealers, sellers and TPGs use for a defense, they didn't know and/or no one ever told them about such possible issues and problems? If evidence eventually does come out to prove that others besides the card doctors themselves were in on this, hopefully the others involved can't just hide behind such a statement that they didn't know and everyone gives them a free pass. It seems almost implausible that if the level, extent and duration of these various issues and antics have been going on involving all the current participants for as long as they have, how could any one of the major players and participants in all this not know about what was going on and be complicit on some level? You've been diligent and at the forefront in bringing and keeping this issue at the forefront for everyone, and I commend you for that as well.

And then if there does come a major case and blow-up of the collecting hobby and system as we now know it, and the added fallout and impact spills over onto the Registry itself to where that implodes as well, the potential negative affect in values and people's collections could be unbelievably detrimental. Which is why you may call me stupid if you like, but for a lot of people with valuable collections that stand to lose a lot if the worst case scenario comes out of all this, they may want to be quiet and not say another word about any of this and hope it all does go away and that things continue on as they are. And that probably includes a lot of people on this forum.

I've been at the office too long and am going home. You guys all have a nice night and lets hope this whole situation can find some resolution that works out best for the hobby as a whole. Only wish I knew what it was. And thank God I basically only collect lower-end stuff and have never gone for the high-end graded items over the years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve, thanks for the additional insight. I didn't think or intend what I was saying to refer to all the cards on the list, just that there could be some that could possibly turn up with similar markings. Obviously if there were sequentially numbered modern cards, and the two graded cards are the same number, that is of course a dead giveaway. Still I was merely pointing out how some attorney could try to argue that the allegations that every card on the list was doctored was not correct. I was not as aware of the issue of the dark fibers in the cardstock, and that is a very telling point that you brought out that goes to show the great work done by the Blowout card guys.

And Peter, I also agree with you that what is being done is wrong and illegal, and please don't think I don't realize that. The amount of evidence seems absolutely insane and the coincidental and hard evidence seems so overwhelming that most would found it hard not to convict the people involved of some level of fraud, at the least. And you are absolutely right that if it does go that far, the prosecution will go after and obtain much, much more information in their case. But that is where it gets even more interesting in that what will that information end up showing? Based on what little we've really seen so far, who exactly does everyone think is truly at fault? Obviously the card doctor(s) are the primary targets, but what about all the other parties involved, sellers, TPGs, dealers, they all have benefited and profited from the exploits of these card doctors it seems. To what level, they did or did not know about the exploits of these card doctors, or should have known, could be devastating. How many times have I seen and read threads where someone mentions contacting these sellers, dealers and TPGs to warn them about the nefarious exploits of these card doctors, shillers, and on and on. And then there are the follow-up posts where everyone complains about how it ends up being business as usual and nothing is ever done. So if something concrete finally does come from this latest issue, what can these dealers, sellers and TPGs use for a defense, they didn't know and/or no one ever told them about such possible issues and problems? If evidence eventually does come out to prove that others besides the card doctors themselves were in on this, hopefully the others involved can't just hide behind such a statement that they didn't know and everyone gives them a free pass. It seems almost implausible that if the level, extent and duration of these various issues and antics have been going on involving all the current participants for as long as they have, how could any one of the major players and participants in all this not know about what was going on and be complicit on some level? You've been diligent and at the forefront in bringing and keeping this issue at the forefront for everyone, and I commend you for that as well.

And then if there does come a major case and blow-up of the collecting hobby and system as we now know it, and the added fallout and impact spills over onto the Registry itself to where that implodes as well, the potential negative affect in values and people's collections could be unbelievably detrimental. Which is why you may call me stupid if you like, but for a lot of people with valuable collections that stand to lose a lot if the worst case scenario comes out of all this, they may want to be quiet and not say another word about any of this and hope it all does go away and that things continue on as they are. And that probably includes a lot of people on this forum.

I've been at the office too long and am going home. You guys all have a nice night and lets hope this whole situation can find some resolution that works out best for the hobby as a whole. Only wish I knew what it was. And thank God I basically only collect lower-end stuff and have never gone for the high-end graded items over the years.

Brent knew. I've already explained how I know that, as if the rest of the evidence doesn't clearly show it anyhow. I also have no doubt many AHs and dealers knew exactly what they were taking from card doctors. Card doctors have been feeding these people for a long time.

[Kenny Cole]

But hey, since he's paying some people back, fraud didn't occur. Just ask Jake. Restitution for theft fixes all. Nothing to see here, move along.

[oldjudge]

Barry—This is a quote from you in a post a few spots up:

“That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.”

My question to you is what basis do you have to say that PSA mints money for themselves? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you have never looked at their financials. In point of fact, Collectors Universe is a not particularly profitable company. In 2018, the company made $6.2 million, the low point for the last five years. Their cash flow, excluding a credit line drawdown was over $2 million in the red, and that is with halving their dividend midway through the year. Despite the large volume of submissions they take in at shows, it appears to me that they are struggling to survive.

[barrysloate]

I haven't looked at their financials Jay, you are correct. But I believe they have created one of the most incredible marketing coups with the set registry. How many thousands and thousands of cards have been resubmitted to see if they can get a bump?

If PSA is the weak link here, fine. But how many collector have made a ton of money by getting that bump? How much money do collectors make when they submit a crappy card that has been altered and get it graded a 7 or 8? I'm sure I could come up with a few more, but it's 5:30 AM and I need another cup of coffee.

But I haven't done an audit so perhaps my numbers are less than perfect.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry—This is a quote from you in a post a few spots up:

“That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.”

My question to you is what basis do you have to say that PSA mints money for themselves? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you have never looked at their financials. In point of fact, Collectors Universe is a not particularly profitable company. In 2018, the company made $6.2 million, the low point for the last five years. Their cash flow, excluding a credit line drawdown was over $2 million in the red, and that is with halving their dividend midway through the year. Despite the large volume of submissions they take in at shows, it appears to me that they are struggling to survive.

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

[Johnny630]

Would be interesting to know if PSA is paying back PWCC for all the bad cards in their holders that they sold in there auction.Kinda like here keep quiet we will get through this.... PSA to PWCC make it right with your customers buy back the cards in full, apologize make it right...we will take care of you wink wink wink.
It's the right business decison 100% for both compaines. With the caveat our business model and marketing cant be beat these idots are addicted to registry and pop report. We will get through this just do whats right and keep hush......

Buyers Think Oh Wow PWCC is so great they're paying me back in full im so pleased I’ll buy from theses guys again ......they have great cards.......meanwhile the toothpaste has already been squeezed out of the tube. A day late and a dollar short if you ask me. I bet the general buyers will continue to take PSA and PWCC bait hook line and skiner. Who do I blame if they continue to do this? The buyer... All the information is here do with it as you may.....my mind has been made up.
A Fool and his Money are Soon Parted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Would be interesting to know if PSA is paying back PWCC for all the bad cards in their holders that they sold in there auction.Kinda like here keep quiet we will get through this.... PSA to PWCC make it right with your customers buy back the cards in full, apologize make it right...we will take care of you wink wink wink.
It's the right business decison 100% for both compaines. With the caveat our business model and marketing cant be beat these idots are addicted to registry and pop report. We will get through this just do whats right and keep hush......

Buyers Think Oh Wow PWCC is so great they're paying me back in full im so pleased.....meanwhile the toothpaste has already been squeezed out of the tube. A day late and a dollar short if you ask me. I bet the general buyers will continue to take PSA and PWCC bait hook line and skiner. Who do I blame if they continue to do this? The buyer... All the information is here do with it as you may.....my mind has been made up.
A Fool and his Money are Soon Parted.

It's better than no restitution, but it's a decade late and probably millions of dollars short when all the fraud in various forms is added up, and in any event returning the stolen money shouldn't whitewash the crime. If it weren't for the guys at BO this would have gone on forever. PWCC's motive is transparent.

[frankbmd]

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.


Barry, the reason this isn't more obvious to everyone is that your post is not illustrated.

358389

The vote in the board room before creating the Registry was unanimous.

The resubmission of both cards and cash was evident right from the get go.

The user-friendly casino in Newport Beach is the perfect storm in this whole scenario (scandal), and was accomplished without a string of hotels and Wayne Newton.

I'm not going to the National this year, but would appreciate seeing pictures posted of the lines at PSA and PWCC to further illustrate my point.;)

[CuriousGeorge]

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

They were added to the Russell 2000 index. Funds need to own it that mimic its returns.

[Johnny630]

Barry, the reason this isn't more obvious to everyone is that your post is not illustrated.

358389

The vote in the board room before creating the Registry was unanimous.

The resubmission of both cards and cash was evident right from the get go.

The user-friendly casino in Newport Beach is the perfect storm in this whole scenario (scandal), and was accomplished without a string of hotels and Wayne Newton.

I'm not going to the National this year, but would appreciate seeing pictures posted of the lines at PSA and PWCC to further illustrate my point.;)

I will not post pictures but I will gladly tell you how off the hook the lines are wed, thursday, and Friday.

[glynparson]

I always thought an altered card was worth 10% of it's original value? also though that Dr. James Beckett had all this nailed down as "industry standards"? Maybe you can help me understand something. Beckett used dealers financial accounts dent to the company to come up with a statistical formula to calculate a cards worth...is that what PSA does? Would it be a conflict of interest for PSA to grade cards and come up with a value for their graded cards in their price guide? Thanks.


BEckett has always been irrelevant in all honesty. Many cards have always sold easily for much more than their guide listed while many others sold for much less. It was never a price listing or bible despite the misuse of it by some, apparently yourself included. I predict lines will be comparable to years before if not longer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

BEckett has always been irrelevant in all honesty. Many cards have always sold easily for much more than their guide listed while many others sold for much less. It was never a price listing or bible despite the misuse of it by some, apparently yourself included. I predict lines will be comparable to years before if not longer.

Probably so. They have now been shown conclusively to be completely incompetent (best case scenario) and to have slabbed huge numbers of altered cards, and neither they nor most of the collecting world apparently care. And people can accept awards for their sets that, in all likelihood, are riddled with alterations.

[BeanTown]

Im old school where I remember card collecting before grading. I knew the hobby changed when there was another price guide other than Krause SCD, in graded cards called "SMR".

The Registry is what made all the difference between the grading companies along with consistant competent grading. It would have been nice to see TPGs keep to doing what they knew best. As I remember, Beckett was really good at newer shiny cards while SGC was the better company for Pre War and the first company (I believe) to grade postcards. PSA was all across the board, but did not have one area of specialty.

Now, its big business where you must have a TPG Blessing on the card to sell it, or everyone thinks its a fake, altered, and is treated like a red headed step child. Its all our fault to give such power to these TPGs who's opinion we coveth and pay dearly for.

I still own many raw ungraded cards Ive bought from the 80's and 90s. When I decide to sell them, I will choose the best grading company at that time.

[oldjudge]

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

Peter--Sitting on sixteen million in cash? They're a public company for gosh sake. How much debt do they have? How many companies in your stock portfolio have less than sixteen million in cash? Their stock is up recently just because some yutzes decided that is was a good idea to short a thinly traded closely held company. It's called a short squeeze. No one is going to confuse CLCT and AAPL.They didn't cut their dividend in half because everything was going great.

Barry-Sounds like your friend thought his card was an 8 and he finally got it. My guess is that it was a borderline 7/8 and with enough submissions he got the higher possibility.

[porkchops]

So glad I never got into grading , but ,
if anyone is interested , I've got
some "psychic beyond the grave
autographs" I'll be selling cheap,
guaranteed authentic !
Ken

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter--Sitting on sixteen million in cash? They're a public company for gosh sake. How much debt do they have? How many companies in your stock portfolio have less than sixteen million in cash? Their stock is up recently just because some yutzes decided that is was a good idea to short a thinly traded closely held company. It's called a short squeeze. No one is going to confuse CLCT and AAPL.They didn't cut their dividend in half because everything was going great.

Barry-Sounds like your friend thought his card was an 8 and he finally got it. My guess is that it was a borderline 7/8 and with enough submissions he got the higher possibility.

Small company. It's all relative. It isn't anywhere close to being on the verge of failure as you suggested. It isn't struggling to survive, for what it is, it's thriving.

Dividends don't mean anything, they typically just mean the company has nothing better to do with its cash than pay it out. How is AAPL's dividend? AMZN?

[oldjudge]

Cutting your dividend in half is never a sign that you are thriving.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cutting your dividend in half is never a sign that you are thriving.

The market doesn't seem to mind, the stock has almost doubled since 1-1.

[CuriousGeorge]

Small company. It's all relative. It isn't anywhere close to being on the verge of failure as you suggested. It isn't struggling to survive, for what it is, it's thriving.

Dividends don't mean anything, they typically just mean the company has nothing better to do with its cash than pay it out. How is AAPL's dividend? AMZN?

I thought you were an attorney. Are you a stockbroker too?

[oldjudge]

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

Their coin business which accounts for more than cards got hammered last year, no?

[CuriousGeorge]

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

The stock got added to the Russell 2000 today. Every fund that tracks that index will want to own it so their returns can be as close to mimicking the index as possible. I think there is barely any stock short so not sure a short squeeze is even a potential issue. It is very thinly traded until the last few days as the index news was getting out. Just reading this board would make me not want to own the stock.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I thought you were an attorney. Are you a stockbroker too?

Haha.. but as peter knows I have bought and sold that stock...

[BobC]

Since you guys have gotten into the financial well being of PSA's publicly traded parent company, I thought I'd take a look at the their most recent annual report and financials for 2018 myself. Interesting!!!! The red colored sections are taken right out of the Annual Report documents.

Grading Warranty Costs. We offer a limited warranty covering the coins and trading cards that we authenticate and grade.
Under the warranty, if such a collectible that was previously authenticated and graded by us is later submitted to us for re-grading
and either (i) receives a lower grade upon re-submittal or (ii) is determined not to have been authentic, we will offer to purchase the
collectible for a price equal to the value of collectible at its original grade, or, at the customer’s option, pay the difference between
the value of the collectible at its original grade as compared with the value at its lower grade. However, this warranty is voided if
the collectible, upon re-submittal to us, is not in the same tamper-resistant holder in which it was placed at the time we last graded
the item or if we otherwise determine that the collectible had been altered after we had authenticated and graded it. If we purchase
an item under a warranty claim, we recognize the difference in the value of the item at its original grade and its re-graded estimated
value as a reduction in our warranty reserve. We include the purchased item in our inventory at the estimated value of the regraded collectible,
which will be lower than the price we paid to purchase the item. We accrue for estimated warranty costs based
on historical trends and related experience, and we monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserve on an ongoing basis. There also
are a number of factors that can cause the estimated values of the collectibles purchased under our warranty program to change over
time and, as a result, we review the market values of those collectibles on a quarterly basis (see Inventory Valuation Reserves above).
However, once we have classified such items as inventory and they have been held in inventory beyond the end of the fiscal quarter
in which we purchased them, we classify any further losses in the estimated fair value of the items or the subsequent disposal of such
items, as part of the gain or loss on product sales on a quarterly basis.

Due to the higher level of warranty payment in fiscal 2018, warranty expense recognized was $764,000 in fiscal 2018 as
compared to $302,000, and ($145,000) in fiscals, 2017 and 2016, respectively. Our warranty reserves were $862,000 and $834,000
at June 30, 2018 and 2017, respectively.

This section refers to the reserves set up to cover Warranty Costs to be paid to buy back collectibles that were originally over graded or later found to not be authentic. Based on this declared policy it would look like any items improperly graded by PSA should be subject to them buying them back. Notice how over the past several years these reserves have been increasing dramatically. With all the new issues coming to light I would think that PSA and not PWCC should be the ones handing out refunds and buying back altered/doctored cards. Of course, at this point all the info provided by the Blowout card guys and others is still only speculative and despite the seemingly overwhelming and incriminating evidence so far presented, no formal or authoritative group or person has definitively been able to prove or declare that in fact a specific card has actually been doctored or altered, just the presentation of overwhelming and unbelievable volumes of evidence to show that numerous items most likely were doctored/altered and then resubmitted to PSA (and other TPGs) where they were given higher, undeserving grades when they should have been deemed no better than just authentic because of the doctoring/alterations taking place.

I wonder, has anyone (or do you know anyone) who has purchased one of those PSA graded cards that were being shown via the before and after scans to most likely have been altered/doctored, taken their card and the online evidence available and gone to PSA and demanded they buy the card back because it was altered/doctored? If so, how were they received and treated by PSA, and most importantly, were they paid? And think about this, because PSA is part of a publicly traded company that is required to report about such things in their financials that can effect their business, the bigger this issue becomes the more detrimental the impact it can have on their business and public perception going forward. And apparently the company has a June 30 year end so, their auditors are working on their year end audit and financials right now. Part of that job is to assess the adequacy of reserves for things like the warranty costs, and to note potential legal issues and subsequent events that could impact the business, whether positively or negatively now and going forward. The auditors name can be easily found in the annual report and financials. http://investors.collectors.com/static-files/a36b8c90-aab1-4ce2-8ec3-6a45441cf111

I can see and understand PWCC paying some of these refunds back to try and help maintain their reputation and business, but in the end, I believe the true liability should actually start (and stop) with PSA as they were the ones who were actually paid to review, evaluate and grade these cards, and apparently missed all the alterations and doctoring. The fact that they may have been duped by a card doctor does not relieve them of their own prescribed policy and liability, at least not if they don't want to completely trash their reputation and business with the collecting community. Of course now PSA (and the other TPGs also involved) should have perfectly good reasons and cases to then go back after the card doctorers or others involved in submitting these altered/doctored cards to them, and sue for damages and to get back what they had to pay out to their customers under their warranty policies. The fact that PWCC instead is the one apparently starting to pay money out to people, plus the question raised by others in this thread as to whether or not PSA may be reimbursing them or contributing to them doing so, raises the question if both parties realize they are somehow in this together and trying to figure out how to appease people and not have the financial and economic consequences blow back on a publicly traded company like PSA.

This next excerpt from PSA's Annual Report really has me thinking about exactly what it is that they do. It states that PSA had 22 experts employed as of 6/30/2018 to grade cards, and I believe it noted/stated elsewhere in their Annual Report that PSA claimed to have evaluated and graded over 2 million submissions in 2018 as well. So, doing some rather simple math, 5 days a week times 52 weeks is 260 days, knock off say 10 days for vacations, another 5 days for sick/other down time, and say another 7 days for holidays and you're down to 238 working days per expert. Well, 2 million submissions divided by 22 experts is 90,909 evaluations/gradings performed by each expert in 2018. Those 90,909 gradings divided by 238 working days comes to 382 cards graded/evaluated each day. With 480 minutes in an 8 hour work day, that comes out to roughly 1.25 minutes (only 75 seconds) spent evaluating/grading each and every card graded and evaluated by PSA last year. And that includes all the time spent to write up and document any notes or issues, do any measuring, testing, reviewing required, handle and pass on the items, and I did't take into consideration going to the bathroom or getting cup of coffee during the day. Quite frankly, even without spending any additional time to properly assess the nuances and differences that occur in the higher end cards to do things like document and prove whether a card should rate as an 8.0 or an 8.5, I find that kind of production physically impossible for that few number of so called "experts" to be able to perform. And there is no way someone would or could be spending any significant time to really look at and determine sophisticated alterations and doctoring of cards and still be putting out that kind of production per year, let alone 22 different people all churning out work at that speed and level. Is it any wonder they are missing so many doctoring/alteration issues if those reported figures and volume of business are accurately stated in their own reports then? And to prove it, just take a watch and time yourself to see exactly how long 75 seconds is and how much you can actually get done in looking at a card and figuring the proper size, grade, condition, etc. And then figure out how to keep that pace up for an entire day. Ain't happening!!!

PSA Trading Card Authentication and Grading Services. Leveraging the credibility and using the methodologies that we
had established with PCGS in the coin market, in 1991 we launched Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA), which instituted
a similar authentication and grading system for trading cards. We are now the leading authenticator and grader of trading cards.
Our independent trading card experts certify the authenticity of and assign quality grades to trading cards using a numeric system
with a scale from 1-to-10 that we developed, together with an adjectival system to describe their condition. At June 30, 2018, we
employed 22 experts who have an average of 14 years of service with the Company. We believe that our authentication and grading
services have removed barriers that were created by the historical seller-biased grading process and, thereby, have improved the
overall marketability of and facilitated commerce in trading cards, including over the Internet and at telephonic sports memorabilia
auctions.


In this last excerpt from their Annual Report I found it intriguing that PSA states that their fees are generally NOT based on the value of the collectible, except for special coin services requested by customers. I've never submitted anything to PSA for grading, but was kind of under the understanding that if I submitted a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle and a 1952 Topps common card for grading that I'd end up paying a whole lot more to get the Mantle card graded. And if so, how is that not a value based fee that goes completely against what they stated?

The amounts of our authentication and grading revenues are affected by (i) the volume and mix of authentication and
grading submissions among coins and trading cards, (ii) in the case of coins and trading cards, the “turnaround” times requested by
our customers, because we charge higher fees for faster service times; and (iii) the mix of authentication and grading submissions
between vintage or “classic” coins and trading cards, on the one hand, and modern coins and trading cards, on the other hand,
because, as vintage or classic collectibles are of significantly higher value they justify a higher average service fee. Our fees are
generally not based on the value of the collectible, except for special coin services requested by customers, for which we charge
supplemental fees that are based on the value of the coin. In fiscal 2018, U.S. vintage coin revenues decreased by $2.0 million
or 13% due to a general slowness in the coin market, although in the fourth quarter of fiscal 2018, vintage coin revenues were
consistent with the level generated in the fourth quarter of fiscal 2017.

And for those of you talking about and looking into where a company's cash is going, always be sure to check out the Cash Flow statement in the financials (page 52 in the Annual Report) and look at the different categories. Pay attention to increases and decreases to debt, acquisitions of fixed/capital assets, and anything else that may look unusual. The decrease in the dividend definitely shows up in the Cash Flow statement and the explanation and most probable reasoning behind that dividend cut is the combination of expansion into the China/Asian markets and the recent year's downturn in revenue from the coin side of the business, possibly coupled with the fact they are aware of the need to bump up their warranty reserves which may (or may not) be even more radically impacted and reflected for their 6/30/19 year-end with all the recent findings and discoveries involving altered/doctored cards in their holders. In the Company's own commentary to the financials they allude to the reasoning for the dividend reduction has to do with sustainability of cash flows in light of recent activities and expected/projected trends. Of course that was for the 6/30/18 year-end, from a year ago. Will be interesting to see what, if any effect, these recent allegations may have on their financial future, and how they decide to report it, that is for sure. If nothing else, I can assure you that if knowledge of these potential issues does get to PSA's auditors ears, PSA/Collector's Universe will try to sway and convince their auditors that any potential impact to the business would be immaterial and not worth mentioning. Last year's Annual Report for them came out in early September it seems. Too bad it wouldn't make it out before this year's National. Will definitely keep my eyes out for it when it does hit to see how they address and handle this. Should be interesting to say the least!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob the site probably isn't conducive to easy searches and the discussion has evolved somewhat chaotically but there has been lots of discussion of these provisions and their relation to the scandal over the past couple of months.

[BobC]

Bob the site probably isn't conducive to easy searches and the discussion has evolved somewhat chaotically but there has been lots of discussion of these provisions and their relation to the scandal over the past couple of months.

My bad, so many different threads out there, and I haven't tried reading them all. Sorry then, was just sticking to this one thread and saw the comments about financials. The biggest point I was hoping to get across to people is that it will be interesting to see what, if anything, gets into the financials for this 6/30/19 year end. With everything going on, I hope the PSA auditors are made aware of these events and that it is reflected in their Annual Report to some extent.

[barrysloate]

If it's true they only average 75 seconds per card, and that may not be the exact amount of time, then that simply isn't sufficient to do the job properly. If they have any interest in improving their track record, they will need to spend much more time per card and will have to charge more money to do so.

Would collectors be willing to spend more in exchange for better quality work? I would think so. If $50 gets it wrong, but $100 gets it right, don't you think most collectors would be willing to pay higher fees?

[ullmandds]

If it's true they only average 75 seconds per card, and that may not be the exact amount of time, then that simply isn't sufficient to do the job properly. If they have any interest in improving their track record, they will need to spend much more time per card and will have to charge more money to do so.

Would collectors be willing to spend more in exchange for better quality work? I would think so. If $50 gets it wrong, but $100 gets it right, don't you think most collectors would be willing to pay higher fees?

And how much does it cost to get a high-grade mantle Rookie graded? I have a hard time with these prices as it is granted I am not their main target demographic for what I collect but I trust my own judgment better than any grading company. The only only only reason I would ever Pay to grade a card is to sell it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

My bad, so many different threads out there, and I haven't tried reading them all. Sorry then, was just sticking to this one thread and saw the comments about financials. The biggest point I was hoping to get across to people is that it will be interesting to see what, if anything, gets into the financials for this 6/30/19 year end. With everything going on, I hope the PSA auditors are made aware of these events and that it is reflected in their Annual Report to some extent.

Yeah the way it's evolved it's somewhat chaotic on the Board but the events keep unfolding. But certainly the warranty is a big pressure point on Collectors Universe and obviously they have to review the adequacy of the reserve as do the auditors. Of course, since they control the ultimate decisions (short of litigation) as to whether to reimburse, that may play into their calculation. And they clearly, see Sloan's statement several weeks ago, are hoping to foist this onto the sellers.

[barrysloate]

And how much does it cost to get a high-grade mantle Rookie graded? I have a hard time with these prices as it is granted I am not their main target demographic for what I collect but I trust my own judgment better than any grading company. You only only only reason I would ever agree to Curtis to sell it!

I know Pete. The $5000 they charge should entitle you to at least an hour of their time. But somewhere with regard to cost vs. time spent, something needs to change. They need to figure it out.

[frankbmd]

At 75 seconds/Card and $50/card fee they are earning $2400/hr.

$5000 per Mantle should be worth at least 2 hours.

Bulk submissions for $10 a pop should get 15 seconds or less.

No wonder their record is impeccable.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.

Why do some baseball players get turned down for the Hall of Fame and then 6 years later they suddenly are a Hall of Famer...I can see a card being submitted 5 times and only on the 6th time get a difference of opinion...

[barrysloate]

Why do some baseball players get turned down for the Hall of Fame and then 6 years later they suddenly are a Hall of Famer...I can see a card being submitted 5 times and only on the 6th time get a difference of opinion...

My example was really more about how TPG's mint money, and less about the merits of the card. No big deal though.

[1952boyntoncollector]

My example was really more about how TPG's mint money, and less about the merits of the card. No big deal though.

Yes, and they make money when they keep telling submitters its the same grade over and over. Its great to make extra money on a card you already graded as you would think the money part would be over on that card once you graded it, but its only the beginning it appears.

[BobC]

If it's true they only average 75 seconds per card, and that may not be the exact amount of time, then that simply isn't sufficient to do the job properly. If they have any interest in improving their track record, they will need to spend much more time per card and will have to charge more money to do so.

Would collectors be willing to spend more in exchange for better quality work? I would think so. If $50 gets it wrong, but $100 gets it right, don't you think most collectors would be willing to pay higher fees?

Barry,

I concur with you and honestly don't believe that it is physically possible for them to be grading that many cards that quickly given the number of grading "experts" they supposedly have. I was merely pointing out the facts and figures they themselves are putting into their annual reports and financials and doing the simple math. My guess is that the so called "experts" on their staff that do the grading are not the only people actually doing and involved in the grading process and that they may have others who do basic, preliminary work, and then have the "experts" get involved in the more higher-end, higher-valued cards at the back end, or in certain cases as needed. So if that is the true case, you may not always have an "expert" you thought you were paying for doing the work in looking at all your submitted cards and grading them for you.

I am guessing that the expectation of most collectors submitting a card for grading is that a single, expert grader takes that card and looks it over and reviews it against a predetermined standard set of measures and tests; mechanical, visual, touch and otherwise, including review with a black light, to completely examine and determine the authenticity of that card, as well as if it then qualifies for an actual grade, and if so, what that grade should be, again based upon a set of pre-described standards and measures that are applied across the board to all cards they are looking at, without regard to a card's age, the actual set it is in, its value, or otherwise. Heck, it just took me over 75 seconds to type all that out, let alone do all that actual work.

I can see that if a grader clearly finds right away some issue that lets them know that a card isn't legit that they wouldn't have to bother going through all the other tests and reviews to determine grade and such, but otherwise, every card should be graded the exact same way and undergo the same exacting procedures and tests and have the same exact standards applied in determining its authenticity and grade, whether it is a '33 Goudey Ruth or a '75 Topps common. And I would hope that most collectors agree this is how it should be.

[jhs5120]

Barry,

I concur with you and honestly don't believe that it is physically possible for them to be grading that many cards that quickly given the number of grading "experts" they supposedly have. I was merely pointing out the facts and figures they themselves are putting into their annual reports and financials and doing the simple math. My guess is that the so called "experts" on their staff that do the grading are not the only people actually doing and involved in the grading process and that they may have others who do basic, preliminary work, and then have the "experts" get involved in the more higher-end, higher-valued cards at the back end, or in certain cases as needed. So if that is the true case, you may not always have an "expert" you thought you were paying for doing the work in looking at all your submitted cards and grading them for you.

I am guessing that the expectation of most collectors submitting a card for grading is that a single, expert grader takes that card and looks it over and reviews it against a predetermined standard set of measures and tests; mechanical, visual, touch and otherwise, including review with a black light, to completely examine and determine the authenticity of that card, as well as if it then qualifies for an actual grade, and if so, what that grade should be, again based upon a set of pre-described standards and measures that are applied across the board to all cards they are looking at, without regard to a card's age, the actual set it is in, its value, or otherwise. Heck, it just took me over 75 seconds to type all that out, let alone do all that actual work.

I can see that if a grader clearly finds right away some issue that lets them know that a card isn't legit that they wouldn't have to bother going through all the other tests and reviews to determine grade and such, but otherwise, every card should be graded the exact same way and undergo the same exacting procedures and tests and have the same exact standards applied in determining its authenticity and grade, whether it is a '33 Goudey Ruth or a '75 Topps common. And I would hope that most collectors agree this is how it should be.

Personally, I do not agree. It doesn't take a minute to grade a 1980's common. For ~80% of PSA grades, it shouldn't take more than 20 seconds or so to authenticate and grade.

[bnorth]

Personally, I do not agree. It doesn't take a minute to grade a 1980's common. For ~80% of PSA grades, it shouldn't take more than 20 seconds or so to authenticate and grade.

I agree, especially with the lower value bulk submissions.

This is just my opinion. I have been involved with a few bulk submissions. It is like they see a pile of cards and go those look like 8's and the pile is graded. This happened to me the last time I was involved with one. I got back cards that ranged from 6s to 10s all graded 8s. Luckily I found a buyer willing to buy the cards and not the grades on the ones that should have been 10s. I also disclosed the obvious crease in one of the 8s I sold to a fellow forum member.

[BobC]

Yeah the way it's evolved it's somewhat chaotic on the Board but the events keep unfolding. But certainly the warranty is a big pressure point on Collectors Universe and obviously they have to review the adequacy of the reserve as do the auditors. Of course, since they control the ultimate decisions (short of litigation) as to whether to reimburse, that may play into their calculation. And they clearly, see Sloan's statement several weeks ago, are hoping to foist this onto the sellers.

Peter, agree completely. I know you're an attorney, but I'm a CPA and perform and issue audited statements and know what is involved and goes into the reporting and financials of these companies, and what the auditors are required and supposed to be doing. I wasn't merely trying to re-hash what had already been talked about and explained in numerous other threads, I was also trying to show and highlight issues as they specifically would be looked at and dealt with by an actual auditor. Apologies for not being so clear on that. That was why I was mentioning about how Collector's Universe's year-end is June 30, so the audited financials and Annual Report are going to be coming out pretty soon in the next few months. I am going to be extremely interested in seeing what, if anything, is reported or shown in their financials and Annual Report in regards to all these recent events. And those excerpts from CU's Annual Report I was posting were to highlight what was being said by the company itself, not someone else, and how they are supposed to be factual and accurate as part of their financials and Annual Report. And to whoever their auditor is, they would have to sign off and basically guarantee in writing to them that all their statements and everything they had been telling them as part of the audit and including in the Annual Report and all were factual and true, to the best of their knowledge, or they wouldn't be getting a clean and unqualified audit opinion from me if I was their auditor.

And if I were their auditor, I would be required to review their reserves for things such as warranty costs, and assess if they appear to have adequately reserved for it. If in my assessment they did not, I would discuss and suggest to them that they should change the reserve to what would appear to be a more appropriate number. And that assessment would stem from and be based on the warranty policy as stated by them that I had posted. And if they did not agree to change their reserve to what I felt was more appropriate, and the difference was egregious enough and material to the financial statements, I would be obligated to at least make mention of the difference in our report or footnotes, or even to issue an exception and a qualified opinion of the overall financial statements. And CU being a publicly traded company, exceptions and qualified opinions would likely not go over well with the investing community. And also being a publicly traded company, CU must conform and operate under the rules and requirements of the SEC, who look at financial statements and reporting in an extremely serious manner. An auditor of a publicly traded company would not want to sweep something under the rug that could later come out and get them blasted by the SEC and the public.

That warranty policy as stated by PSA/CU doesn't mention anything about them having to be taken to court and have litigation to force them to pay such warranty claim costs. It merely states that PSA is liable if a card previously graded by them is re-submitted to them, still in its original PSA holder, and is subsequently found and proven that it had been over graded incorrectly, or ended up not being authentic, that they would either offer to buy back the card from the current owner/customer at the value based on the incorrect grade, or AT THE CUSTOMER'S OPTION, not buy back the incorrectly graded card and instead pay the owner/customer the difference in value between the incorrect grade and what the card really should have been graded at. And I assume that means that if a card doctor had picked up say a PSA 4 version of a card and then altered and submitted it so that it now came back as a PSA 6, which was then later proven to have been altered/doctored when a subsequent owner resubmitted it to PSA looking for a grade bump, the true grade of that former PSA 4 card would/should now and forever after be no better than an "A", correct? And in that case, under their warranty policy, PSA would be liable to pay the owner/customer the difference in value between a PSA 6 version of that card and one that was just an "A" (authentic) version, and the customer/owner still keeps the card apparently, if the custoner/owner chooses that option. So if I was their auditor, I would have to use those parameters in looking at their warranty reserve calculation and determine if I felt it was adequate and reasonable given the known facts and circumstances.

Quite frankly, if I was PSA/CU's auditor, and knowing what I know about the whole thing, I would look at the warranty reserve calculation PSA did as of 6/30/19, along with their facts and calculations in how they came up with it, and start with the questions from there. Again, because of my knowledge of cards and the industry, I would be extremely critical of whatever reserve figure they came up with and be very demanding in knowing how they came up with and then justified it. Quite clearly to me, because the number of questionable cards in PSA holders already purported to be out there are being considered as maybe only the tip of the iceberg, there is no possible way to really and truly come up with an anywhere near complete list of what potential cards may be subject to the warranty. And couple that with the added difficulty of then having to decide what the potential values of those incorrectly graded cards are that PSA could be on the hook for, and there is no possible way currently to really come up with a good, reasonable and defensible figure as to that the reserve should be, at least not in my opinion. So as their auditor, I would probably end up telling them that I was going to at least explain how we arrived at whatever number we ended up using as the warranty reserve, and then be sure to add footnote disclosure to further explain the issue and the inability to determine an accurate, reasonable potential reserve with what information was currently available. I would also further explain that the warranty reserve costs could be significantly higher than reported in the current and future years, and have a serious material, negative impact on the business andc its financial statements going forward.

And trust me, the idea/concept of materiality is not simply a vague, unknown term or amount when it comes to audits. There are set and prescribed calculations and formulas that all auditors are supposed to follow in calculating materiality. In the case of PSA/CU, based on their 6/30/18 financial statements and total sales reported for that fiscal year, the entire company's planning materiality amount/level for that year was $498,694, which would/could then be rounded up or down slightly at the auditor's discretion. What that then means is that in looking at the financial statements of PSA/CU for that year as their auditor, if I ended up finding that I disagreed with amounts the company was reporting, and those differences netted to more than this materiality amount/level, I would have to go back to PSA/CU and tell them that they would either have to make some adjustments to their financial statement figures that I would propose to them to remove the differences, or if they did not agree to do so, I would have to at least have them disclose those material differences in the footnotes to the financial statements. And if they refused to even allow the footnote disclosure of the the material differences, I would most likely only issue them a qualified opinion and have to explain the material differences in my report then, or depending on how egregious the differences actually were, I could even possibly back out and refuse to issue an opinion because I didn't think an accurate opinion could then be given. And if you think that if I did back out as their auditor, or if they fired me as their auditor because I wouldn't go along with what they want, that they could simply go out and find and hire another accounting firm to agree with them and perform their audit and make the problem go away, that won't work. Any subsequent auditor of theirs is required to inquire of prior auditors and them as to why the change and what the issues were. And since they are publicly traded, the SEC also requires even further reporting and the filing of Form 8-K to explain the dismissal and change in auditors, and all the reasons and issues for doing so. In other words, the company being audited can't just hide the issues or try to sweep them under the rug. So from what I'm seeing, I expect there should be some interesting reporting on their upcoming financials.

And since the warranty guarantee appears to be triggered only when a PSA card is re-submitted to them in the same, original PSA holder it was in when originally misgraded, it more or less means that PSA gets to be the one, and only one, to decide if they actually misgraded the card to begin with. So has anyone already tried to re-submit one of these suspect cards in a PSA holder back to them yet? First off, with their ridiculous turn-around times (so I've heard) how long will it take someone to even get a response back. I imagine someone with a suspect card(s) could go to their offices along with scans and emails and all the documentation and evidence that has come forward and present it and the card(s) to them and say pay me. I'd love to be in the room to hear the response to that from a PSA official. And even with all the supposed evidence and scans you could present, what happens if they say they stand behind the grade and the card(s) presented is fine as graded and you are owed nothing by them, what recourse would you have then? Sue them in court to prove they are wrong, even though they are considered by many as the top card authentication and grading firm in the country? Most individuals wouldn't have the time nor resources to be able to go after them that way. And then think how that could impact the guilt and potential liability of the card doctor(s) or others involved in the sales of the altered/doctored cards. If someone went after a suspected card doctor(s) in court and the defense can pull in someone from PSA to say they back the grade they gave on cards the defendant supposedly doctored (remembering PSA is considered by many as the top, expert card grading firm in the country, if not the world), how would that possibly end up in court for the card doctor(s)? The problem is that even if there isn't true collusion and cooperation among the TPGS, dealers and card doctors in this whole thing, they all do share potential financial liability because of it. So it behooves them all to shut up and not admit to or say anything, and for the TPGs to continue saying the grades they gave certain cards are correct and they are not altered/doctored, which helps to maintain and preserve their reputation and keep them from being hit with financial liability under their own warranty guarantees. And that in turn provides protection for the dealers selling the bulk of these supposedly altered/doctored cards who can then just say that they didn't grade them and since the TPGs are standing behind the grades, that they didn;t do anything wrong either. And as for the card doctors, if the TPGs and dealers continue to keep saying the cards are good and the grades accurate, how can you accuse/convict them of anything if the recognized hobby industry experts keep saying the cards are good after all?

Now I've heard and read that PWCC has actually gone ahead and started to pay off/buy back/reimburse some people for alleged altered/doctored cards that they had sold them. But with all the allegations and finger point that has come out of this, they can easily argue they are doing so to maintain their reputation and business, without formally saying or proving that they knowingly sold cards that were altered/doctored and incorrectly graded by TPGs. In other words, they can assert it is merely a very lenient return policy they have on sales by them for unhappy customers. For PSA to start doing such payouts though, that would likely be considered by many in the hobby community as an admission by them that they had inaccurately graded and missed so many doctored/altered cards. So I can fully understand why they aren't out there offering to make payments to people for their alleged grading errors. And as for any of the card doctors themselves, good luck on getting anything should someone try knocking on one of their doors asking for a return of money!

Here's a thought on how to possibly make some money from all this then. Reach out to the people who currently own some of these alleged altered/doctored PSA graded cards and see if they would be willing to sell them to you, at a discount of course because of the taint their card now has. Then take the cards and go to PSA and resubmit and ask them to pay you for their erroneous grading. Depending on how much of a discount you may have gotten the card for originally, you could potentially make some decent money, if you can get PSA to actually admit they blew the original grading and slapped an improper grade on an altered/doctored card.

[swarmee]

JHS,
Sure, if you presume that nobody has ever learned how to replicate a rough cut for 1952 Topps Look-N-See cards or 1953 Parkhurst or 1955 Topps FB All-American.
But then you're proven wrong by Moser, who can easily fool PSA graders by applying a false rough cut to issues while trimming fractions of an inch off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob, good discussion. I wonder how efficient the market is for CLCT stock, given that recent developments obviously could have a material impact on CU through the warranty and reserve, but also given that the stock price apparently has not been affected at all other than a brief response to what was probably just a short attack by Seeking Alpha. If one assumes an efficient market, then the market apparently doesn't perceive much risk. Then again, with CLCT being such a small cap company and so thinly traded, the market may not be efficient.

[swarmee]

Yeah, it's a wall of text, but most of those points have been made in the previous threads that have rolled off the board. You might want to read more threads that talk about PSA's grade guarantee and what we've already discussed.
Not to say it can't be rehashed, just that it you're going to pontificate about it, we've already done it.

I'm not hoping for PSA's demise; you can see that because I want them to offload their financial risk onto PWCC and Moser and their other alterers. But if PSA doesn't come out and PUBLICLY STATE that they were incapable of detecting alterations, and have created/proven new techniques to catch these cards from being submitted in the future, I don't see how their company has any more value than the Set Registry, which will wither and die when people stop submitting cards knowing that the whole enterprise is built on fraud. I WANT PSA TO REFORM. But without a significant attack on its warranty reserve or law enforcement intrusion into its business, I don't see PSA having this "Come To Jesus" experience.

I don't agree with the PSA Apologists on this board and others that think that the status quo will never change. It's been about 2 months since the first PSA "conserved" Mantle was outed. Have people forgotten about this yet? Have the blowout detective agency (BODA) stopped finding altered cards? Have people that are invested in the hobby stopped posting about this endemic fraud? No. And the National is coming up in a month. The word about this fraud will only spread from here on out.

[drcy]

I think PSA, PWCC and Moser should all go under. PSA can be the exception only if it can entirely reform and change.

I think the grading system/business is corrupt, and is, in big part, concerned, focused and invested in things other than, and counter to, objective grading and authentication. And if it is unable or uwilling to objectively grade and authenticate, then it shouldn't be in the business . . . And that statement doesn't even touch on if they are capable of grading and authenticating.

If they were intellectually honest they would say "We have to dissolve the PSA Registry, or at least attach a big fat disclaimer to it, because these numbers are obviously not reliable and almost certainly wrong." But honesty and accuracy clearly are not essential to their business model. If they were they would have admitted long ago that the T206 Gretzky Wagner is trimmed and misgraded long. Refusing to admit the Wagner is altered and misgraded is akin to a scientific "authority" refusing to admit the earth rotates around the sun and materials are made up of atoms and molecules ("And we should trust your statements on other scientific topics why?"). And that right there is the problem.

Whether they will, or 'should' as some collectors might say, reform and change is a separate matter. Many collectors and dealers are fine with the old corrupt, and perhaps inept, grading system and want it to continue, because they also are focused and invested things other than, and counter to, objective grading and authentication. Many are literally invested in the system.

Now if PSA wishes to wholesale reform their system and model, then that would be a reasonable response I could subscribe to and support. But that would require a wholesale reform and change in philosophy. To use Thomas Kuhn's once radical and now cliched and misused terminology, it would require a paradigm change.

David Cycleback

[barrysloate]

I think PSA, PWCC and Moser should all go under. PSA can be the exception only if it can entirely reform and change.

I think the grading system/business is corrupt, and is, in big part, concerned, focused and invested in things other than, and counter to, objective grading and authentication. And if it is unable or uwilling to objectively grade and authenticate, then it shouldn't be in the business . . . And that statement doesn't even touch on if they are capable of grading and authenticating.

If they were intellectually honest they would say "We have to dissolve the PSA Registry, or at least attach a big fat disclaimer to it, because these numbers are obviously not reliable and almost certainly wrong." But honesty and accuracy clearly are not essential to their business model. If they were they would have admitted long ago that the T206 Gretzky Wagner is trimmed and misgraded long. Refusing to admit the Wagner is altered and misgraded is akin to a scientific "authority" refusing to admit the earth rotates around the sun and materials are made up of atoms and molecules ("And we should trust your statements on other scientific topics why?"). And that right there is the problem.

Whether they will, or 'should' as some collectors might say, reform and change is a separate matter. Many collectors and dealers are fine with the old corrupt, and perhaps inept, grading system and want it to continue, because they also are focused and invested things other than, and counter to, objective grading and authentication. Many are literally invested in the system.

Now if PSA wishes to wholesale reform their system and model, then that would be a reasonable response I could subscribe to and support. But that would require a wholesale reform and change in philosophy. To use Thomas Kuhn's once radical and now cliched and misused terminology, it would require a paradigm change.

A big +1

And David has a new ebook out on baseball card authentication. It's on my to-do list to read over the holiday weekend. Let me thank you in advance for your effort.

[bnorth]

A big +1

And David has a new ebook out on baseball card authentication. It's on my to-do list to read over the holiday weekend. Let me thank you in advance for your effort.

Awesome, got a link?

[Tim Zwick]

Courtesy of Al @ LOTG.....

https://online.flippingbook.com/view/468582/?utm_source=Users&utm_campaign=22e3e70515-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_02_03_20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bf969b43b8-22e3e70515-29356677

[Johnny630]

Yeah, it's a wall of text, but most of those points have been made in the previous threads that have rolled off the board. You might want to read more threads that talk about PSA's grade guarantee and what we've already discussed.
Not to say it can't be rehashed, just that it you're going to pontificate about it, we've already done it.


I'm not hoping for PSA's demise; you can see that because I want them to offload their financial risk onto PWCC and Moser and their other alterers. But if PSA doesn't come out and PUBLICLY STATE that they were incapable of detecting alterations, and have created/proven new techniques to catch these cards from being submitted in the future, I don't see how their company has any more value than the Set Registry, which will wither and die when people stop submitting cards knowing that the whole enterprise is built on fraud. I WANT PSA TO REFORM. But without a significant attack on its warranty reserve or law enforcement intrusion into its business, I don't see PSA having this "Come To Jesus" experience.

I don't agree with the PSA Apologists on this board and others that think that the status quo will never change. It's been about 2 months since the first PSA "conserved" Mantle was outed. Have people forgotten about this yet? Have the blowout detective agency (BODA) stopped finding altered cards? Have people that are invested in the hobby stopped posting about this endemic fraud? No. And the National is coming up in a month. The word about this fraud will only spread from here on out.

I agree with all you’re saying, I really hope and pray it happens.

It’s sad but the sheeple do not care one bit they’re addicted to the Registry and Pop Report.... Newport Beach and Mr Vault on the Lake Know this....They’re Smart they will stay hush hush �� Mr Vault on the Lake will refund the bad cards all under Newport Beaches Watch and Direction each will continue covering each other’s back side.....full on damage control....

[barrysloate]

Awesome, got a link?

I got an email from Love of the Game Auctions with a link.

Oops, someone already linked it.

[perezfan]

I think PSA, PWCC and Moser should all go under.

I think the grading system/business is corrupt, and is, in big part, concerned, focused and invested in things other than, and counter to, objective grading and authentication. And if it is unable or uwilling to objectively grade and authenticate, then it shouldn't be in the business . . . And that statement doesn't even touch on if they are capable of grading and authenticating.

My opinion and others are free to disagree.

+1... very well said.

And with regards to Bob’s lengthy post, I’m glad he shared his perspective as a CPA/Auditor. I know some of it was redundant, but there’s some great insight there. I only hope that PSA is listening and acts accordingly.

[kateighty]

While I agree with the majority of what drcy said where's the name? Am I missing something here? Leon calling me up and asking for my info was mildly (ok actually extremely) terrifying but I get it now. 2k+ posts and one like this without a name.

[drcy]

While I agree with the majority of what drcy said where's the name? Am I missing something here? Leon calling me up and asking for my info was mildly (ok actually extremely) terrifying but I get it now. 2k+ posts and one like this without a name.

Fair point. Added my name to the bottom of my post.

[kateighty]

Fair point. Added my name to the bottom of my post.

Awesome! You make many great points! No ill will or anything. Leon clearly has a life outside of n54 so just making sure we're all equally accountable when discussing similar points.

[drcy]

Awesome! You make many great points! No ill will or anything. Leon clearly has a life outside of n54 so just making sure we're all equally accountable when discussing similar points.

No offense was taken.

[mechanicalman]

No offense was taken.

David, congrats on your book. You have one of the best card-related names on the board. You should consider working it into your profile as you seem to express many opinions in anonymity.

[kateighty]

I had mine as my signature and learned it had to be under real name in my profile settings. Hope this helps.

[Leon]

David, congrats on your book. You have one of the best card-related names on the board. You should consider working it into your profile as you seem to express many opinions in anonymity.

I guess I just figured everyone knows David (hey David) but I guess not. :) He has a permanent link in our archive section, of a book he wrote, and an acknowledgment for helping the forum too. But true, he should have his name out here in his posts, when he gives opinions, like everyone else..

http://www.net54baseball.com/forum/content/archivecenter.html

http://cycleback.com/cardsauthentication.pdf

And back to the topic. I heard through the grapevine that PSA is expecting a record turnout!

.

.

[kateighty]

David, congrats on your book. You have one of the best card-related names on the board. You should consider working it into your profile as you seem to express many opinions in anonymity.

Exactly. Don't mean to start crap anyone. I too am an author, mostly in the legal and academia arena. How is it that I felt the wrath of Leon all "KAAAAT WHO ARE YOU!? Where's your name?!!" and consequently have my name next to everything I write. But there's another author out there who has never had to have his name next to any of his 2500+ posts? Please someone fill me in.

[kateighty]

I guess I just figured everyone knows David (hey David) but I guess not. :)

Really Leon? That's a great way to encourage new members. And also a quick way to once again discourage me to be a member on this board. Really quite upsetting.

[kateighty]

I have his book Leon. Would have been great to know all this time he was drcy. Didn't realize I was supposed to read through the archives and put two and two together while the rest of us are REQUIRED to use our names.

[drcy]

When Cary Grant enters the bar, you don't ask him for id

[brianp-beme]

I put my full name on a post whenever I post an opinion about an individual or company, as is stated in the guidelines, but otherwise my posts are without my name, because mainly I write silly stuff or something that might be useful.

David provides a ton of useful information...most of his posts do. And he has been known for his sly remarks that make you think.

BrianP(arker)-beme (I guess I have to post my name, because, dangit, I posted what could be viewed as an opinion of a person).

[BobC]

Bob, good discussion. I wonder how efficient the market is for CLCT stock, given that recent developments obviously could have a material impact on CU through the warranty and reserve, but also given that the stock price apparently has not been affected at all other than a brief response to what was probably just a short attack by Seeking Alpha. If one assumes an efficient market, then the market apparently doesn't perceive much risk. Then again, with CLCT being such a small cap company and so thinly traded, the market may not be efficient.

Peter,

Thanks, and I agree with you, it is thinly traded and likely not an efficient market. However, didn't someone post that CLCT was recently added to the Russell 200 exchange? If so, that would likely up their presence and make them noticed a bit more than in the past.

My hope is that the CU auditors are made aware of the issues and take that into consideration during CU's current year-end audit. I will be extremely interested to see what, if any, mention is made of the current issues in the upcoming Annual Report of CU, or in the impact it may have on their financials through their warranty reserve. And with a 6/30 year-end, those financials and Annual Report will be out sometime by this September/October. And being a publicly traded company, those financials and Annual Report will be available to anyone with internet access as a matter of public record. PSA is in a unique position within the collecting community as to my knowledge they are the first ever party/entity that is being associated with such a potential scandal in the card collecting hobby that also happens to be part of a publicly traded company subject to the additional reporting requirements, scrutiny and oversight of the SEC. So unlike any of the card doctors, collectors, dealers, auction houses, grading companies, etc. involved in all of the earlier scandals and frauds that have come out in our hobby, this will be the first time we can all actually get to see the financial impact such issues can have on some party/entity involved.

What CU management tells the auditors about the current issues, if anything beyond the normal year-to-year issues they have always had with erroneously graded cards, would be extremely interesting to learn and know. We obviously won't be privy to what is actually told to the auditors, but what ends up being reported in the Annual Report and financials should give us a fairly good clue as to what they ended up telling and sharing with them. To my knowledge there are no current or pending lawsuits or litigation involving any of the current issues that PSA may be involved in, so auditor inquiries to the CU lawyers for this year's audit will likely make no mention of any of this. After that, it may just be up to what CU management feels is appropriate to share with their auditors. And frankly, I could see their management saying nothing is really different than it has been in prior years, and even so, any alleged issues or problems would be aggressively refuted and fought, and that in the end, they would expect no material effect on their business or financials. And unless someone on their outside accountant's audit team just happens to also be a collector with knowledge of what is currently going on, the auditors likely won't know about all these issues that we have recently been made aware of and just go with what management is telling them.

So, it is a matter of public record that Grant Thornton LLP is the outside auditor for CU, and has been since 2005. They are a national accounting firm with offices all around the country, and the audit of CU is run out of their Newport Beach, California office. So the actual audit team members directly working on the CU audit, and the partner in charge of and responsible overall for that audit, will likely be working out of that office as well. There is the possibility that CU has decided to change auditors for this year-end, but that is not likely as it is usually more efficient and cost-effective for a company to retain the auditors they have had in the past. And the contact information for Grant Thornton's Newport Beach office is easily found on the internet. i will stop there!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suspect, Bob, that PSA will aggressively downplay it with their auditors, and claim nothing is new here just an intensification of the chatter that's always in the background. I think they could probably afford a significant increase to the reserve, as they seem to have (you would know better than I would, interested in your opinion) a decent amount of cash for a company their size, but at the same time that could affect perception of their confidence in their own abilities to grade and I doubt they want to send that message. But we'll see.

[BobC]

I suspect, Bob, that PSA will aggressively downplay it with their auditors, and claim nothing is new here just an intensification of the chatter that's always in the background. I think they could probably afford a significant increase to the reserve, as they seem to have (you would know better than I would, interested in your opinion) a decent amount of cash for a company their size, but at the same time that could affect perception of their confidence in their own abilities to grade and I doubt they want to send that message. But we'll see.

That is exactly what I'm thinking also, that they will downplay any current issues as nothing new and assert that as always they will vigorously defend themselves against any and all false or misleading allegations. And quite frankly, that is really all everything is right now, allegations. Despite all the scans and evidence that the Blowout guys have unearthed, and what looks to be fairly damning evidence across the board, nothing has yet been definitively proven as factual in any applicable court or by any other organization or party deemed/felt by the hobby community to represent it in determining such things. The sad truth is that up to now, the hobby has been looking to the likes of TPGs like PSA to be considered and treated as the be-all-end-all arbiters of what is or isn't authentic or altered. So with the recent, sudden revelations of all the suspect graded cards that are showing up, do we really expect any of the TPGs to suddenly realize they may not know as much as they profess to in regards to cards and what they are doing in grading them, and to openly start to admit that they have mistakenly been grading altered/doctored cards for years? It financially could be ruinous to them to now start doing so, and upend the hobby itself by putting things like the entire Registry in question. So as I've said before, it seems that even if the TPGs were not knowingly involved and collusive with card doctors, dealers and any other parties possibly involved in these fraudulent schemes, because of the financial and business effects these revelations could have on them, it behooves them to shut up and say nothing about this. They are in a virtual Catch-22 where if they admit to their prior grading errors and mistakes, it can end up costing them financially and reputation/business-wise. And if they say and do nothing and stick by their earlier grading opinions, the evidence found about their alleged mistakes will still find them guilty in the court of public opinion, which these myriad of threads about the issue already seem to prove true, at least among people on the BO and Net54 forums. In all the threads and posts I've seen, I don't seem to remember many, if any, posters taking the side of the TPGs and defending them as being correct.

And think about this, despite all the before and after scans the Blowout guys have been able to find and share with everyone, does anyone truly think the card doctors would have limited themselves solely to only picking up cards from other recent auctions to then perform their magic on and have re-graded and sold right away? What about all the cards the card doctors may have picked up at shows, from private sales, that were originally raw, etc., etc., where there were no convenient, recent, high-res scans the Blowout guys could go back to and show the similarities and then highlight the alterations made to such cards? My guess is that given the years over which these card doctors have been known to be operating and the multiple sources and areas they could have been getting their subjects to work on and alter, the number of supposedly altered/doctored cards that the Blowout guys have been able to find before and after scans of and show us are probably only an unbelievably small fraction of the doctored/altered cards that actually could be out there in the hobby, all sitting in otherwise legitimate, TPG graded holders.

And here is the scariest thing of all to me. If these card doctors are that good and can make these alterations so that they cannot be readily detected by the so called expert TPG companies when looking at them, without the availability of these before and after scans that the Blowout guys have been able to find and share with us, there is no way to tell beyond a doubt that any other graded cards with a numerical grade, regardless of what that grade is, have not also been altered or doctored. Unless it was found that these cards doctors over the years had been keeping records of all the cards they had worked on and then got re-graded and what they got as a bump in the grades, the new cert numbers, and so on, it will be impossible to tell. And I sincerely doubt the card doctors or anyone else possibly involved would be that stupid to keep such detailed records around that could possibly incriminate them. And even if they did keep such records, how would you be able to coerce them into making them public unless legal authorities started going after them criminally and somehow getting such data from them before they had a chance to destroy it.

And because of all this uncertainty and the ultimate inability to be able to possibly prove definitively what graded cards are or aren't altered/doctored, I can see a large part of the hobby community turning a blind eye and deaf ear to the whole thing and waiting till it blows over. Too many people have too much money tied up in their collections or inventory, or associated with their Registry holdings to want to see the entire hobby trashed to the point that they end up suffering financially as a result. Because of the unknown numbers of already altered/doctored cards that may be sitting in graded holders, and the inability for anyone to now go back and prove otherwise, the hobby in general may just end up accepting the fact that there are probably a lot of altered/graded cards in TPG company holders out there, but that if the TPGs couldn't detect any issues, then the'll leave them as is and basically the hobby will have started accepting these as restored/conserved cards and leave them as graded.

Otherwise, how can you feel comfortable buying any graded card then? Will one/some of the TPGs admit they may have had shortcomings and revise their grading procedures and testing so as to be able to detect these alterations in the future? if so, could it possibly mean that any future sales of graded cards will now require the seller to have a card re-graded to see if it were possibly altered before someone purchased it? I just can't see that happening due to the sheer number of graded cards out there and the costs to go through doing all that. And even so, who would trust any of the existing TPGs to get it right anyway. Quite honestly, you know who would probably be the best party/group to set up a new TPG to do the grading and detect these alterations, the card doctors themselves! Who else would be better able to detect the alterations than those who knew how to do them in the first place, right? But hopefully, that isn't ever happening either.

Getting back to the issues with regard to the CU financials and Annual Report, we don't know what their year-end numbers as of 6/30/19 will look like right now, but the measure of what is considered material to the financial statements will be determined based on those year-end numbers. And I already mentioned that based on the prior year-end numbers as of 6/30/18, the measure of materiality on those financial statements would probably have been around $500K, not really that much. So depending on what PSA graded cards were showing up on those Blowout lists as questionably graded, and the potential differences in their cumulative value should they actually only have been graded as "A" (authentic) instead of receiving numerical grades, that is what should be considered and factored into the Warranty Reserve that will show up on CU's financials. What actually ends up on their will thus be very telling.

[swarmee]

And because of all this uncertainty and the ultimate inability to be able to possibly prove definitively what graded cards are or aren't altered/doctored, I can see a large part of the hobby community turning a blind eye and deaf ear to the whole thing and waiting till it blows over.
This is what has happened in all the previous scandals, and you can see those heavily invested parties already hoping this will blow over too, so their their baseball card nest eggs aren't decimated in value.
However, now the investigators are the collectors that are fed up with Beckett, PSA, and to a lesser extent, SGC claiming to be unbiased arbitrators of card condition. They are not letting this blow over. It's now been 2 months since the first card was noted to be "conserved" through PSA, and the number of fraudulent cards detected and number of Cert # submission records are only INCREASING in severity and sheer numbers. Currently, PSA is liable for approximately $1,000,000 in Grade Guarantees for just the cards with before and after pictures.
But as I informed them, if PWCC pays for the reimbursement, that lessens their liability. If PWCC or Gary (or other fraudsters) then try to get reimbursement through the Grade Guarantee on cards they KNOWINGLY submitted as altered, PSA should tell them to pound sand since they violated the rules they signed when they submitted the cards. And Brent himself in that hour-long video, promised to refund from PWCC's pocket the fraudulent cards submitted directly by the company.
We haven't even gotten to the National yet. PSA may be sticking its head in the sand, but if their reserve doesn't go up to the millions in the next shareholder statement, someone should refer it to the SEC for investigation. PSA still has not made ANY notification to its collectors, save the worthless "we were duped" statement on their never read message board. It's never been on their website, emailed to their customers, and they haven't been calling anyone, as far as I know.
PWCC actually had reached out to some of the collectors who had cards outed (a.k.a. "slandered" as a Brettism) on the Blowout boards, but not to any of the other customers who bought cards on the same tainted submissions. If people aren't willing to demand accountability for PSA, Beckett, and SGC's lack of accuracy, then nothing will change without law enforcement. But some are speaking with their wallets.

I know I've directly contacted about 30 of their Set Registry guys to inform them their cards were tainted. If PSA isn't going to protect their customers (despite their "NEVER GET CHEATED" motto), I will step in. And so will the other Blowout Detectives. This isn't really like any scandal they've had in the past.

[Johnny630]

This is what has happened in all the previous scandals, and you can see those heavily invested parties already hoping this will blow over too, so their their baseball card nest eggs aren't decimated in value.
However, now the investigators are the collectors that are fed up with Beckett, PSA, and to a lesser extent, SGC claiming to be unbiased arbitrators of card condition. They are not letting this blow over. It's now been 2 months since the first card was noted to be "conserved" through PSA, and the number of fraudulent cards detected and number of Cert # submission records are only INCREASING in severity and sheer numbers. Currently, PSA is liable for approximately $1,000,000 in Grade Guarantees for just the cards with before and after pictures.
But as I informed them, if PWCC pays for the reimbursement, that lessens their liability. If PWCC or Gary (or other fraudsters) then try to get reimbursement through the Grade Guarantee on cards they KNOWINGLY submitted as altered, PSA should tell them to pound sand since they violated the rules they signed when they submitted the cards. And Brent himself in that hour-long video, promised to refund from PWCC's pocket the fraudulent cards submitted directly by the company.
We haven't even gotten to the National yet. PSA may be sticking its head in the sand, but if their reserve doesn't go up to the millions in the next shareholder statement, someone should refer it to the SEC for investigation. PSA still has not made ANY notification to its collectors, save the worthless "we were duped" statement on their never read message board. It's never been on their website, emailed to their customers, and they haven't been calling anyone, as far as I know.
PWCC actually had reached out to some of the collectors who had cards outed (a.k.a. "slandered" as a Brettism) on the Blowout boards, but not to any of the other customers who bought cards on the same tainted submissions. If people aren't willing to demand accountability for PSA, Beckett, and SGC's lack of accuracy, then nothing will change without law enforcement. But some are speaking with their wallets.

I know I've directly contacted about 30 of their Set Registry guys to inform them their cards were tainted. If PSA isn't going to protect their customers (despite their "NEVER GET CHEATED" motto), I will step in. And so will the other Blowout Detectives. This isn't really like any scandal they've had in the past.

+1 Joh

[perezfan]

It's arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby, and is receiving virtually no "mainstream media" attention. Of course it behooves PSA to shut up. PSA is counting on it all blowing over, but if enough attention is brought to the matter at The National Convention, there will definitely be mainstream coverage that finally captures it. Media is always present at The National...

Spreading the word (as swarmee is doing) is really up to the collectors who care about the hobby. There is no other "voice" in our corner, and the opposition has far deeper pockets to defend and deflect blame.

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout. And how many altered examples that now reside in numbered holders is anyone's guess. Those who are deeply invested (whether monetarily or emotionally) will never be able to give it up, but the numerical grading system is now called into question and has largely been rendered meaningless. The timing is ripe for a complete system overhaul.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

[Johnny630]

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

Agree Peter sadly it’s always been that way and will continue to be....

[samosa4u]

Courtesy of Al @ LOTG.....

https://online.flippingbook.com/view/468582/?utm_source=Users&utm_campaign=22e3e70515-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_02_03_20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bf969b43b8-22e3e70515-29356677

Awesome! Thank you so much for providing this link!

I also have to read 'Ultraviolet light and its uses' by Cycleback as well.

[swarmee]

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout.
That's one of the interesting things. The whitman111 account has purchased some complete sets from raw card sellers, so it's not just cracked out slabs.
There are many sets in the PSA registry that are completely useless due to fraudulently slabbed cards, IMO:
1952 Topps Look-N-See
1950-60s Parkhurst Hockey
1948 Leaf Baseball, Football, and Wrestling
T206 (not just from Moser, but years and years of trimmed cards)
1952 Topps baseball
1950s Bowman
1951 Topps Ringside
1952 Berk Ross
N162 Champions
1937 O-Pee-Chee hockey
1961 Fleer Basketball
N28 Ginter Champions
1933 Goudey Sport Kings
1957 Topps
1955 Bowman
1955 Bowman FB
1958 Topps
1960 Leaf baseball
1959 Topps baseball

Thousands upon thousands of cards altered from some of the nicest/most collected sets in the industry.

[barrysloate]

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it.

If you are willing to pay say $1000 for a genuine NR MT/MT, you can't pay the same amount for a lower grade card that's been doctored, trimmed, recolored, dry cleaned, or whatever else. Somewhere, somehow collectors have to wake up to the ridiculousness of this all.

Or maybe absolutely nothing will change. Let's find out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

[Johnny630]

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

You’re correct! I would see them either set up yup....or last year, even worse, white plains he was walking the floor with a badge/dealer pass.......I was like what the hell !!!!

[drcy]

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it..

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) or paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

I remember Julie Vognar saying years back she didn't deserve getting an auction house's catalog because she bid without winning. The auction house president corrected her, saying she deserved the catalogs because her bids helped realize the winning prices. Remove some bricks from the wall, even lower ones, and the wall is shorter.

Further, the prevailing hobby opinion about valuations will affect prices. Why does some billionaire newbie buy a 1952 Topps Mantle? Because hobbiests tell him it's the card to get. If prevailing opinion is "Fine, buy the card, but only an idiot $100,000 premium for a spooned out wrinkle and removed spot, the billionaire will hear that too." He may buy the card, but he's not going to pay the current $100,000 extra.

[barrysloate]

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) and paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

[Johnny630]

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

Antique market fell hard.....are you implying you think it could hit this industry soon ?

[barrysloate]

It can. It's not bulletproof.

[Dpeck100]

I am looking at the lots in the current Heritage auction. From what I can see it looks like business as usual.

I don't have any skin in the vintage baseball card game but I am extremely skeptical of the pending collapse.

It may very well happen and a few will be able to come online and say to others I told you so but I think that is a very low probability call.

Ken Kendrick's quote was he was disappointed when the testimony came out under oath it was stated the Wagner was trimmed. For some reason he got a four times his purchase price offer and has the card insured for more than 10 million. I think these whales still want the merchandise.

Time will tell.

[Johnny630]

I am looking at the lots in the current Heritage auction. From what I can see it looks like business as usual.

I don't have any skin in the vintage baseball card game but I am extremely skeptical of the pending collapse.

It may very well happen and a few will be able to come online and say to others I told you so but I think that is a very low probability call.

Ken Kendrick's quote was he was disappointed when the testimony came out under oath it was stated the Wagner was trimmed. For some reason he got a four times his purchase price offer and has the card insured for more than 10 million. I think these whales still want the merchandise.

Time will tell.

Yes it will....Def embattled times for the industry right now....not a good image especially prior to the National....Already has hit the NYT

[Dpeck100]

Yes it will....Def embattled times for the industry right now....not a good image especially prior to the National....Already has hit the NYT

Yes I have been following it the entire time. The NYT piece didn't exactly come down that hard on the concept of alteration.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1953-topps-mickey-mantle-82-psa-mint-9/a/50015-80997.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

Here is a 1953 Topps Mantle PSA 9. The description states the first 9 to come up for auction in ten years.

I find it hard to believe that high dollar collectors who are deeply entrenched in the hobby are going to say no thanks I am not bidding.

[BobC]

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.


Sorry for my long posts, but I'm old school and not a child of Twitter and Instagram. If I'm going to say something I'm going to try and present a complete picture/argument/statement and not just put out a quick line or two. All too often someone puts down a line or two and it is so vague or incomplete that most people misinterpret or misunderstand what they are trying to say, and then more or less ignore or really don't even think about what they read. If someone reading my posts realizes I'm not just blurting out or making a knee jerk reaction or statement as to what is going on, it will hopefully get more people really thinking about the issues and problems.

The questionability as to the alteration of so many cards is already out there, the proverbial horses have already left the barn and they aren't coming back!!! Absent card doctors coming forth and admitting what they have done and what graded cards are out there that have been altered, we'll never know for certain which cards are or are not good. And that is only if they kept complete, accurate records and finally agreed to/were forced to share that information with the public. But because of all the time that has likely passed and the myriad of cards they have likely altered and put into the hobby over the years, who knows how many of those cards over time have been cracked out of their originally misgraded holders, re-submitted, changed from one TPG to another, or put back into raw form so that none of them can ever be traced back to original card doctor records. It is already too late as the taint to so many cards now exists, and unless we can come up with tests and measurements that definitely prove that a card has or has not been doctored/altered, we'll never be able to tell for sure the correct nature of almost any graded card, and unfortunately, maybe even quite a few raw ones out there that had been broken out of their holders. And even if it were possible to come up with definitive tests and procedures to prove or disprove alterations, who is going to bear the brunt for the costs to have every card out there re-tested and graded, and who is going to be the group/company to do it? And maybe even worse, if you have a large collection or inventory of graded cards, do you really want to have someone go through them and then let you know a large portion of them are not completely legit and have been altered? There are so many innocent collectors/dealers out there that stand to get hurt it is frightening.

And as Swarmee mentioned in one of his earlier posts, in previous scandals the powers that be in the hobby would be quiet and merely wait for things to blow over and then go back to business as usual. This may be a little different though as the current scandal may be a lot bigger than previously thought and more far reaching. Also, as I've tried to point out, with the possible involvement of a publicly traded entity, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, it has added a new, unique perspective and twist to the issues and also the potential for another stage on which news of the issues can be presented and brought to the media and public at large. Issues and potential scandals involving baseball cards is really only of interest to a very small part of the public, and a lot of people in the mainstream think we're weird and strange to begin with because we still collect cards as adults, so they really aren't going to be that interested and care much about are situation or problems. However, now have those same issues and scandals possibly affecting a publicly traded company and its stock value and suddenly you have a whole new and potentially larger portion of the public that may be interested in what is going on. So all the more chance it finally gets more publicity and notice. PSA/CU is not really a very large company, even though publicly traded, and likely won't ever get front page mention on the Wall Street Journal, but you never know!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

[Johnny630]

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

Ugh that’s disheartening Peter......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ugh that’s disheartening Peter......

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

[Johnny630]

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

Right pushing the investment side aspect of high grade vintage......come on! What a bunch of bull....short term it worked... people bought it hook line and sinker...this would have been a very fitting piece for the journal! Maybe the gentleman knows the editor at the IBD....would fit even better there or
CNBC Greed that may very well happen down the road after it all shakes out

[barrysloate]

A big lie can't go on forever. Sure, it may be business as usual at the National this year, but as time passes this story will grow. There will be a day of reckoning. It just might not be here quite yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A big lie can't go on forever. Sure, it may be business as usual at the National this year, but as time passes this story will grow. There will be a day of reckoning. It just might not be here quite yet.

Yes, Tiresias.

[barrysloate]

Yes, Tiresias.

I'm a regular Oracle of Delphi.

[drcy]

That's an excellent point I had not thought of, and should be made to PSA investors who hope the controversy goes away.

The more high grade cards created, the less rare and valuable they will be.

Many make valuations by the Pop Report.

This alone should make collectors with high-grade cards who otherwise have their head in the sand take notice. These alterations/scams will affect the populations/valuations of their current investments. Their rare graded cards will be come less and less rare, and may someday be plentiful.

By putting their heads in the sand and hoping the forgets about it, they may not be protecting their investments but devaluating them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a good point.

The more high grade cards created, the less rare and valuable they will be.

Many make valuations by the Pop Report.

This alone should make collectors with high-grade cards who otherwise have their head in the sand take notice. These alterations/scams will affect the populations/valuations of their current investments. Their rare graded cards will be come less and less rare, and may someday be plentiful.

That's already happened with certain commons that were next to impossible to find decently centered. People just started to manufacture them.

[Kenny Cole]

I'm a regular Oracle of Delphi.

But Tiresius was from Thebes. :-)

[BobC]

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

Barry,

I'm listening and agree with you. The whole crux of this problem started back when the hobby community more or less let the TPGs take over as the sole arbiters of what is and is not authentic and what the grading system is and so on. We now have multiple TPGs with no single, clear set of standards or rules as to grades and yet, they have become the self-annointed, so-called experts of our hobby. To remove and replace them, especially because of things like the Registry, is virtually impossible to do now without severely disrupting the current status quo of the hobby and damaging so many innocent collectors and dealers. And quite frankly, because of the financial aspects of what they do, the TPGs are not able to operate and perform their supposed independent, third-party services without an eye towards their own bottom lines. In other words, they are in it for the money and not completely independent. Especially a TPG that is a publicly traded company. They are responsible and answer to their shareholders, not the collecting community to whom they have promised to provide fair, consistent and unbiased opinions and grading services. As it is, the TPGs have virtually no transparency as to what they do, no specific and consistent grading standards and methods among themselves, or even let us know the specific training their so-called experts go through to become graders, or so I've been led to believe over the years. And if someone wants to dispute me on that point I've heard put forth by others, let me know what would happen if I walked into a TPG's offices and asked to sit in while they graded my cards and see exactly what they did do. Would they let me observe?

What should have been done (or maybe should now be done) is to have set up or established some type of national collecting group or organization (preferably a non-profit type of entity) and have the people/collectors involved in the hobby become members and possibly pay annual dues to help raise some funds to oversee and handle aspects of the hobby on behalf of all collectors. This would be an organization for collectors, not auction houses, dealers, TPGs, or others that make their money and living off the hobby. As a national organization it could, for example, poll and find out from the members what the exact, consistent grading standards and measures should be for the grading of cards. Granted, everyone still won't always agree what would make a card worthy of a 3 grade as opposed to a 4 grade, and so on, but they would know that regardless of who was doing the grading that the grade would be consistent and in compliance and agreement with the overall standards set be the collecting community as a whole, not just the whim or opinion of a single TPG. Especially a publicly traded TPG that is in the business for profit alone (as are the other TPGs as well) and not really concerned about the collecting community other than how to best use them to make even more money. Besides setting uniform standards for grading and authenticating items, such an organization could also take on and set curriculum for training and the determination of what would qualify someone as an expert authenticator or grader, and not leave that solely up to each different TPG to decide for themselves and on behalf of all of us collectors either. And that way, any TPG that wanted to be approved and authorized by the collecting organization as a TPG would have to submit to review and oversight of their services to insure they are in compliance with what standards and measures the hobby organization chose, not what they wanted. And you could also establish divisions, groups in the organization to separately cover dealers, auction houses and so on. That way the various dealers, auction houses and other related groups and entities could also be subject to hobby organization review and oversight to insure that they confirm and meet hobby standards set by the hobby community, not the dealers and auction houses themselves. Of course to start out, you wouldn't necessarily have a large enough number of members to get anyone to agree to listen to you, but over time, if you could get enough people to understand and join in for the good of the hobby, TPGs, dealers and auction houses would have no choice but to listen. A TPG (or other groups/entities) could initially tell the hobby organization and its members to go to hell and not bother listening to them at all, but hopefully over time a national hobby organization could get eventually enough members who would then refuse to do business and use that TPG or other entities services anymore until they agreed to the unified standards and oversight of such national hobby organization.

Wouldn't be easy to start something like this and you certainly wouldn't get overnight approval or commitment from enough collectors to sway and coerce the current main players and participants who are more or less controlling and calling the shots in our hobby right away. But over time and with an ever growing member base you could slowly begin to force and make positive changes to get the TPGs, dealers, auction houses and others to finally agree to confirm and begin applying set, consistent standards, or force them to be ostracized by the collecting community going forward and damage their businesses, possibly irreparably. Sort of like the Better Business Bureau or the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval organizations. And this current scandal that is coming out may just be the big, all-encompassing issue that could possibly act as the spark to set off such a wave of change in this hobby and at least start to put some of the control and decision making back in the hands of the collectors and not in the hands of those that make their money off the collectors.

I know, I know, possibly a far-fetched dream and thoughts, but you have to have dreams and hopes that start somewhere, right?

[BobC]

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

[swarmee]

BobC, you are providing a useful perspective. It's just that wall of text posts are routinely ignored on message boards. Keep posting, but you'll get more traction with compact posts than long ones.

I find it very interesting that PSA is bringing graded cards to the National and asking visitors to their booth to "grade the cards" to see how much they match with the real grades. It would be funny if a bunch of people took them up on the offer and marked about 70% of them "Altered" as a result of this scandal.

[Johnny630]

BobC, you are providing a useful perspective. It's just that wall of text posts are routinely ignored on message boards. Keep posting, but you'll get more traction with compact posts than long ones.

I find it very interesting that PSA is bringing graded cards to the National and asking visitors to their booth to "grade the cards" to see how much they match with the real grades. It would be funny if a bunch of people took them up on the offer and marked about 70% of them "Altered" as a result of this scandal.

This is very laughable!! Mark Them GM !!!

[barrysloate]

But Tiresius was from Thebes. :-)

Tiresius got around, despite vision problems.

[56Horsehide]

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I, for one, appreciate your posts. While they may seem to be a bit verbose, they add more value (factual, precise, well worded, etc.) to the topic at hand than the majority of "one liners" and "speaking but not saying anything" posts I have difficulty following. I am a retired accountant (private sector) so that may help. I am looking forward to your follow up comments regarding the 6/30/2019 financial report of PSA. Hang in there and don't give up.

Jim

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I was only suggesting you change the format of your posts to make them easier on the eyes.