Industry participants' response to scandal so far -- report card

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just for kicks. My opinion, let's see what others think.

PSA -- only thing I have seen is the Sloan letter, which I would grade an F.
Beckett -- is there a grade lower than F?
PWCC -- last thing I have seen is the piece about slandering cards. If they're
making serious restitution behind the scenes then good, but as to their public response, D. (At least they indicated an intent to cut off card doctors, although the jury is out.)
LOTG -- A+. Thanks to Al for taking a stand.
Scott R -- A+ for speaking out and condemning the fraud.
Other AH's and dealers (and sorry if I have missed any who have spoken out) -- radio silence. Very encouraging that you're all stepping up to the plate and offering your perspective and guidance to the collectors on whom you depend. F.
SGC -- N/A as they haven't really been tagged, yet.
Gary -- told NYT he didn't alter cards, only bumped them. F.

[ullmandds]

I would add to your list that Lee of Sterling auctions has posted on facebook to raise awareness of the issues at hand.

[steve B]

I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would add to your list that Lee of Sterling auctions has posted on facebook to raise awareness of the issues at hand.

I did not know that, thanks for pointing that out.

[Frank A]

I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.

[dabbuu]

Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

They're not really clean they're just significantly less dirty at this point. Maybe a small wax stain which can be removed?

My big regret is that my behind the scenes efforts appear to have gone for naught. It's not 100% yet so I still won't go into detail. But I did work hard at making a difference, which a couple board members can attest to.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They're not really clean they're just significantly less dirty at this point. Maybe a small wax stain which can be removed?

My big regret is that my behind the scenes efforts appear to have gone for naught. It's not 100% yet so I still won't go into detail. But I did work hard at making a difference, which a couple board members can attest to.

Scott that effort may not have paid off but there is another one that may still be viable.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Scott that effort may not have paid off but there is another one that may still be viable.

Can't imagine how I could help, but you know I'm here if I can be useful.

[JohnP0621]

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.

Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP

[Frank A]

Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

[bnorth]

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

We can only hope.:D

[BLongley]

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP

Not fair to include the autograph authentication with the card grading (SGC).

Do we include PSA/DNA with PSA's incompetence?

[darwinbulldog]

SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.

I mean, they can't be exactly equally bad, but it's not definitive from the absolute numbers of grading errors revealed to date that PSAs batting average with the doctored cards is worse than SGCs. I would guess it is, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. Certainly PSA has had vastly more plate appearances. That could be because Moser/Brent knew the cards had a better chance of getting through there, but PSA would also give them a better ROI even if they figured the cards had the same chance of getting through with SGC as with PSA.

[pokerplyr80]

Not fair to include the autograph authentication with the card grading (SGC).

Do we include PSA/DNA with PSA's incompetence?

If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.

[Frank A]

If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.

First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable. Of course they should. I'm saying they're two separate issues. We're talking card doctoring, not autograph authentication.

[oldjudge]

First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.

+1

[pokerplyr80]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable. Of course they should. I'm saying they're two separate issues. We're talking card doctoring, not autograph authentication.

I don't really think we disagree, although I do think it's fair to include incompetence in one area with another. Both issues are relevant and important.

[jhs5120]

Unless there are reports that PSA and PWCC haven’t been refunding clients, I don’t believe F and D respectively is appropriate. I could be wrong though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless there are reports that PSA and PWCC haven’t been refunding clients, I don’t believe F and D respectively is appropriate. I could be wrong though.

Sloan specifically said contact the seller, not us. Why should I assume PSA is refunding people? The burden is on them not us at this point. Has anyone indicated PSA refunded them? Has PSA accepted responsibility for ANYTHING? Please.

And how many people have said PWCC refunded them? One guy maybe, or two? Again, with all the nonsense they've pulled off for years, the burden is on them to show their good faith in my eyes. And it wouldn't even be good faith, really, more like desperation.

[jhs5120]

Sloan specifically said contact the seller, not us. Why should I assume PSA is refunding people? The burden is on them not us at this point. Has anyone indicated PSA refunded them? Has PSA accepted responsibility for ANYTHING? Please.

And how many people have said PWCC refunded them? One guy maybe, or two? Again, with all the nonsense they've pulled off for years, the burden is on them to show their good faith in my eyes. And it wouldn't even be in good faith, really, more like desperation.

I have yet to hear anyone vent about not receiving a refund. If PSA was being difficult with victims (many are on this board), I'd imagine we would hear something. Again, I could be wrong, but I'd imagine PSA and/or PWCC are requesting victims sign NDAs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have yet to hear anyone vent about not receiving a refund. If PSA was being difficult with victims (many are on this board), I'd imagine we would hear something. Again, I could be wrong, but I'd imagine PSA and/or PWCC are requesting victims sign NDAs.

No, a guy just posted yesterday about a PWCC refund, he did not mention an NDA. Why you would give these people the benefit of the doubt at this point, given all that has transpired, after years of fraud and incompetence and coverups, is beyond me, but whatever we all have our perspectives.

[RedsFan1941]

peter do “other auction houses and dealers” know they are to report to you what they have and haven’t been doing? does pwcc know it’s supposed to keep you posted on refunds it has made? I would assume if you are grading all of these businesses, you have requested they keep you informed so you can make accurate assessments and not ones that are just based on what you’ve heard or read in an auction house’s blog post. otherwise you appear to be trying too hard to stay relevant in this mess.

[bnorth]

No, a guy just posted yesterday about a PWCC refund, he did not mention an NDA. Why you would give these people the benefit of the doubt at this point, given all that has transpired, after years of fraud and incompetence and coverups, is beyond me, but whatever we all have our perspectives.

I saw this quote in someones signature line and I think it fits perfectly.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

[drcy]

I should be on that list, saying "They're a bunch of bloody wankers."

[jhs5120]

No, a guy just posted yesterday about a PWCC refund, he did not mention an NDA. Why you would give these people the benefit of the doubt at this point, given all that has transpired, after years of fraud and incompetence and coverups, is beyond me, but whatever we all have our perspectives.

I look around and see no one complaining about refunds, it's not so much a "benefit of the doubt" as a reasonable guess that people are receiving refunds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

peter do “other auction houses and dealers” know they are to report to you what they have and haven’t been doing? does pwcc know it’s supposed to keep you posted on refunds it has made? I would assume if you are grading all of these businesses, you have requested they keep you informed so you can make accurate assessments and not ones that are just based on what you’ve heard or read in an auction house’s blog post. otherwise you appear to be trying too hard to stay relevant in this mess.

Misunderstood your post intiially, sorry. But leaving aside your stupid ad hominem remark, yes I think these hobby leaders (the other AHs and dealers) should be coming forward like a few have done and giving us their perspective. They're not shy about reaching out when they want to promote their auctions, how about reaching out when there is great uncertainty and people don't know what to make of the situation? As for PWCC, they massively breached the public trust to the tune of 70 percent of this forum not dealing with them. The way to try to restore confidence would be by telling the public what they are doing to restore that trust, not secret payments with an NDA.

[steve B]

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.

Bad stuff gets by them too, and they also won't do anything except fall back on "we were right" when they very obviously weren't.

If that's "clean" I guess we define things differently.

[oldjudge]

With all due respect to the smaller auction houses, the only statements I'd like to hear are from the Heritages and REAs of the world. The others are not significant in the general scheme of things.

[steve B]

Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?

I don't wish bad on them, they may be marginally better at spotting alterations, or simply more cautious about things. But as far as I know they dodge responsibility with the best of them.

And of course, PSA is so bad almost anyone could be relatively good in comparison.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't wish bad on them, they may be marginally better at spotting alterations, or simply more cautious about things. But as far as I know they dodge responsibility with the best of them.

And of course, PSA is so bad almost anyone could be relatively good in comparison.

Not Beckett, apparently.

[sb1]

I can go on record saying that Gary Moser, nor any of the other named card doctors have ever consigned to my auction.

I did not know I needed to weigh-in, if there was no issue with my consignors. Apparently judgement has already been passed.


Scott

Brockelman Auctions

[RedsFan1941]

i am experiencing great uncertainty and don’t know what to make of the situation. please help.

[bnorth]

i am experiencing great uncertainty and don’t know what to make of the situation. please help.

I will do what I can for you. If you have any Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Ted Williams, or Eddie Mathews cards/memorabilia sell it to me know really cheap before it becomes completely worthless. Hope this helps.:D

[darwinbulldog]

Not Beckett, apparently.

Nice.

[Tabe]

First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.

My favorite story is the one I read of a guy who got an auto at a card show, walked over to an authenticator to get it slabbed, and was told it was fake.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My favorite story is the one I read of a guy who got an auto at a card show, walked over to an authenticator to get it slabbed, and was told it was fake.

Funny but on a serious note on the flip side of the altered card stuff there are lots of those sorts of errors in grading as well, that is, perfectly fine cards that get rejected. The consequences are not as serious, but it can be bad news for people trying to earn money selling cards.

[topcat61]

Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?

They are not clean. They've authenticated forged autographs and that one is still being investigated by the FBI.

[pokerplyr80]

I can go on record saying that Gary Moser, nor any of the other named card doctors have ever consigned to my auction.

I did not know I needed to weigh-in, if there was no issue with my consignors. Apparently judgement has already been passed.


Scott

Brockelman Auctions

I would upgrade Brockelman to an A for this response.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would upgrade Brockelman to an A for this response.

Yes I agree, I am sure most of us except Ronnie who is self-sufficient:eek: appreciate the response by Scott.

[darwinbulldog]

Funny but on a serious note on the flip side of the altered card stuff there are lots of those sorts of errors in grading as well, that is, perfectly fine cards that get rejected. The consequences are not as serious, but it can be bad news for people trying to earn money selling cards.

True. I've had PSA reject a card I had just pulled from a cello pack.

[RedsFan1941]

good quote peter. hopefully for your sake it makes it into print somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

good quote peter. hopefully for your sake it makes it into print somewhere.

I enjoy the snide remarks, please do keep them coming, and thank you for your contributions.

[calvindog]

Misunderstood your post intiially, sorry. But leaving aside your stupid ad hominem remark, yes I think these hobby leaders (the other AHs and dealers) should be coming forward like a few have done and giving us their perspective. They're not shy about reaching out when they want to promote their auctions, how about reaching out when there is great uncertainty and people don't know what to make of the situation? As for PWCC, they massively breached the public trust to the tune of 70 percent of this forum not dealing with them. The way to try to restore confidence would be by telling the public what they are doing to restore that trust, not secret payments with an NDA.

PWCC and PSA are making secret payments and securing NDAs? What’s the source for that? And what’s a secret payment?

[calvindog]

They are not clean. They've authenticated forged autographs and that one is still being investigated by the FBI.

SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC and PSA are making secret payments and securing NDAs? What’s the source for that? And what’s a secret payment?

That was Jason's theory. You have to read his post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1891348&postcount=23

[calvindog]

That was Jason's theory. You have to read his post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1891348&postcount=23

But admittedly based on his imagination and nothing concrete. You understand that it makes no sense for PWCC or PSA to insist upon an NDA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But admittedly based on his imagination and nothing concrete. You understand that it makes no sense for PWCC or PSA to insist upon an NDA.

That's been my point, as I have posted several times.

[bnorth]

SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?

Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.;)

[calvindog]

The way to try to restore confidence would be by telling the public what they are doing to restore that trust, not secret payments with an NDA.

Oh my bad. I thought you suggested that they were making secret payments with an NDA. And how is a payment secret? Like it just ends up in your account without anyone telling you it’s coming?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh my bad. I thought you suggested that they were making secret payments with an NDA. And how is a payment secret? Like it just ends up in your account without anyone telling you it’s coming?

No I was saying it would make no sense to do that if they wanted to restore trust, and a few posts before I pointed out there were no NDAs because a guy had just posted about a PWCC refund and did not mention an NDA.

I guess I was using secret payment in the sense of not known to or knowable by the public, not hidden from the recipient, although maybe not the best wording.

[calvindog]

No I was saying it would make no sense to do that if they wanted to restore trust, and a few posts before I pointed out there were no NDAs because a guy had just posted about a PWCC refund and did not mention an NDA.

I guess I was using secret payment in the sense of not known to or knowable by the public, not hidden from the recipient, although maybe not the best wording.

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone is defrauded and their trust abused then reimbursed is that good fortune or just what they are entitled to, I might quibble with the language although I recognize the comparison.

[calvindog]

If someone is defrauded and their trust abused then reimbursed is that good fortune or just what they are entitled to, I might quibble with the language although I recognize the comparison.

In this hobby? Look around you. It’s a miracle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In this hobby? Look around you. It’s a miracle.

Go tell it on the mountain!!

[frankbmd]

I accept secret payments 24/7.

No questions asked.

[Republicaninmass]

I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.

Sgc has been called out for their auto debacle. F


When I inquired with Tyler about a refund of an obvious forgery, with before and after photos, he wrote "since forgery Is a federal offense, you would need to seek restitution from the FBI" to paraphrase the rest; While you are at it, crack the card out and send us the flip, we will reimburse the grading fee.

[Fuddjcal]

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

no, but they are so bad at it or corrupt that they should. Very piss poor company.

[Republicaninmass]

SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.


65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well

[Peter_Spaeth]

65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well

Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?

[Republicaninmass]

Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

[661fish]

So should we ALL go back to the old days when we graded our own cards?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

People like this sometimes have a misplaced sense of their own invulnerability.

[Johnny630]

People like this sometimes have a misplaced sense of their own invulnerability.

Agree Peter. In light of all this awful stuff this year’s National will tell a good bit to me where people stand. We absolutely detest and abhor all these...how many others are slime balls and may think they can get their bad cards passed both companies...how many people don’t know or care?? how many people continue to think psa will succeed and still continue to bring them the most money for their cards in the near future.
The lines at PSA and SGC will dictate the future of how these companies are going to deal with this. Will PSA still have the stronghold ? Will be protest and demand buy backs ect.. Will lines be substantially smaller or the same or hell crazier things have happened larger?

[661fish]

I honestly feel that PSA will still have long lines. Just like PWCC will still have people doing buisness with them. They may feel the effect for a minute.

[JohnP0621]

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.
Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P

[bnorth]

Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?:eek::D

[Peter_Spaeth]

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?:eek::D

Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted. :eek:

[darwinbulldog]

Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted. :eek:

I'm also guessing it's pretty close to that.

[JohnP0621]

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?:eek::D

Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .

[bnorth]

Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda:D) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

[JohnP0621]

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda:D) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

Believe me I am not happy about any of this. SGC ,PSA, Beckett etc . Just calling it like it is .

[Kenny Cole]

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda:D) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

In my estimation, no one should be "happy" that any of the TPGers are as bad at their jobs as the cards outed seem to indicate they are. Disappointed? Yes. Outraged? Maybe, Feel like their trust was betrayed and that they absolutely didn't get what they were promised? OK. People and companies are going to make mistakes. That's inevitable. Its how they respond that matters IMO. That's where the rubber meets the road. Thus far, I have seen nothing that gives me any assurance whatsoever that any of the TPGers are willing to step up and clean up their mess. I guess time will tell, but I am sure not holding my breath.

BTW, when I say "mistake," I am not including PWCC. Mistake implies an accident. As best as I can tell, what PWCC did was not accidental. I sincerely hope that PWCC goes down in flames and that its principals spend time in prison.

[Republicaninmass]

Thanks Ben! Trying to insult them the best I know how.

I'm not sure what they have done with the other owners of the forged cards. My guess is the auction house reimbursed them, and SGC told the auction houses to go to the FBI, or caved due to the business they send.

[AddieJoss]

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

I’m not sure about everyone else. I received 8k refund from pwcc. It even covers my initial shipping charges. The OP is rating the “response” only? That is a good response from my perspective. Not glad it happened but glad to get 8k for the cards. I was not asked ever about a Signing a non disclosure or anything of the like.

Cory Weiser

[HercDriver]

Where's VCP's grade? I sort of quit following the posts due to work and life getting in the way. The initial posts all wanted to fry Bobby, but I thought that was jumping the gun a bit. I haven't seen anything else about that lately, so I'm assuming he's cleared? And apologies issued publicly by those that wanted to skewer him? Maybe I'll get a beer and try to catch up...

Cheers,
Geno

[vintagetoppsguy]

This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790&highlight=Cobb

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe because it's a response to their "guarantee" which guarantees nothing?

F


F



F

[Peter_Spaeth]

This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790&highlight=Cobb

I remember reading where Spence authenticated a facsimile Churchill autograph on a form letter.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I remember reading where Spence authenticated a facsimile Churchill autograph on a form letter.

I'd never heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I trust some on this board way more than any TPG.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I try not to puff up my friends, and we're hijacking a little. But I gotta say if you haven't worked with Mike Root who started CAS. You are missing out. Not only does he do a great job, but he's willing to take time to explain things. He's not hoarding his knowledge some some weird cult. He gladly tells you what he's looking for if you have questions. He's also happy to call on other's expertise instead of just taking a guess. He's got some great guys on his side.

My favorite story is a collection I was bringing to auction. The collection was amassed in two ways. The owner had serious health issues and was bedridden as a fairly young man for almost two years. He did THOUSANDS of TTM requests. When his health started to come around he started getting things done in person.

Without any sorting, or explanation Mike went through the collection and literally rejected only TTM pieces. Out of the hundreds of in person autographs not one failed. It's not necessarily that he's perfect, who is? But I was mightily impressed.

[36GoudeyMan]

Scott -- CAS seems at first to be a reputable authenticator, but when you look at the "team" behind Root, you find Herman Darvick. That raises HUGE red flags with me (from my non-sports autograph collecting hobby days). This might be a source point (or sore point), from Steve Koschal. I don't know all the intrigue, or if Koschal is right or wrong, but this worries me a lot about CAS, FWIW.

http://autographplanet.com/forum/herman-darvick-expelled-from-the-uacc-continues-to-fuel-the-autog

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd never heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I trust some on this board way more than any TPG.

Leon prefers no links to this site but here is the description.

39. The REA-Winston Churchill JSA-Authenticated Facsimile Letter-

This facsimile letter sent out by Winston Churchill was authenticated by JSA as an authentic handwritten document by the British Prime Minister. JSA noted the pen pressure and other characteristics they examined which revealed the document was genuine. But the document was a mass-produced facsimile sent out to many recipients and exhibited no evidience of ink or pen ever being applied to the paper. The bogus offering was later pulled from REA’s Spring 2013 sale after JSA’s blunder was exposed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

[bnorth]

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

With all this no lawsuit posts are you begging for work?

[Johnny630]

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

An inquiring mind also may ponder whether or not other card doctors have been doing this.....not as bold and or arrogant to the fact of doing it in the same auction house while buying using same eBay account....leads me to believe other guys may have been doing this more inconspicuously...if past behavior has never been held accountable what’s to lead anyone to believe it would to them...when there are zero consequences for ones behavior you get more of the same behavior...
We all live in a Wild West Industry That has always been loaded with this....

[1952boyntoncollector]

With all this no lawsuit posts are you begging for work?


Appears to be no work. Everyone is happy it appears..or willing to wait 3 months or years for PSA to review their card because what choice do they have..

[calvindog]

Appears to be no work. Everyone is happy it appears..or willing to wait 3 months or years for PSA to review their card because what choice to they have..

Speak for yourself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

An inquiring mind also may ponder whether or not other card doctors have been doing this.....not as bold and or arrogant to the fact of doing it in the same auction house while buying using same eBay account....leads me to believe other guys may have been doing this more inconspicuously...if past behavior has never been held accountable what’s to lead anyone to believe it would to them...when there are zero consequences for ones behavior you get more of the same behavior

There are MANY card doctors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Speak for yourself.

talk is cheap, when there are actual lawsuits, there will be something to really discuss.... everyone can say all the witty things they want back and forth but its just talk until theres an actual lawsuit.

[Johnny630]

There are MANY card doctors.

Agree and Almost Zero Peter have been held accountable...

[Peter_Spaeth]

talk is cheap, when there are actual lawsuits, there will be something to really discuss.... everyone can say all the witty things they want back and forth but its just talk until theres an actual lawsuit.

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Scott -- CAS seems at first to be a reputable authenticator, but when you look at the "team" behind Root, you find Herman Darvick. That raises HUGE red flags with me (from my non-sports autograph collecting hobby days). This might be a source point (or sore point), from Steve Koschal. I don't know all the intrigue, or if Koschal is right or wrong, but this worries me a lot about CAS, FWIW.

http://autographplanet.com/forum/herman-darvick-expelled-from-the-uacc-continues-to-fuel-the-autog

Don't know the specifics of that particular guy, I just know he has some that are very well-respected in the autograph world. Also they are not guys who work for Mike every day, they are consultants if he has questions. I mainly liked the idea that Mike doesn't pretend to know everything like some autograph guys do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agree and Almost Zero Peter have been held accountable...

Yup. The train just keeps on rolling. Bad people profit and good people (most anyhow) do nothing. We'll see if the recent revelations which are so in your face and shocking and undeniable bring about any change.

[calvindog]

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

I'm not convinced he's a lawyer. No one could be this clueless, even the shittiest slip and fall lawyer.

The average value of a trimmed card in this mess is probably $2000. Let's say it's $5000. Jake, do you think people are going to run to sue over that amount of money? Or will they try like hell to do anything they can to avoid paying a lawyer more money than the value of the card they're suing over? Even the guy with the trimmed PSA 10 Musial didn't sue immediately. He's clearly trying to get his money back without the need for costly, lengthy litigation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not convinced he's a lawyer. No one could be this clueless, even the shittiest slip and fall lawyer.

The average value of a trimmed card in this mess is probably $2000. Let's say it's $5000. Jake, do you think people are going to run to sue over that amount of money? Or will they try like hell to do anything they can to avoid paying a lawyer more money than the value of the card they're suing over? Even the guy with the trimmed PSA 10 Musial didn't sue immediately. He's clearly trying to get his money back without the need for costly, lengthy litigation.

Not to mention that most people don't live in California so they would have to contemplate bringing out of state litigation.

But I have a 2K card that's been identified as possibly trimmed and I'm REALLY pissed so I am going to find a lawyer who practices in Orange County, and pay him or her whatever it takes to file and pursue a lawsuit RIGHT NOW, even though it's premature because PSA hasn't reviewed the card yet or said no on their guarantee. I am sure the lawyer can get around that. And if I have to travel to California to testify at trial, so be it, damn it. That 2K card is THAT important to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

right and if zero lawsuits then everyone is happy...seems like all of the at fault people are taking care of everything right?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Not to mention that most people don't live in California so they would have to contemplate bringing out of state litigation.

But I have a 2K card that's been identified as possibly trimmed and I'm REALLY pissed so I am going to find a lawyer who practices in Orange County, and pay him or her whatever it takes to file and pursue a lawsuit RIGHT NOW, even though it's premature because PSA hasn't reviewed the card yet or said no on their guarantee. I am sure the lawyer can get around that. And if I have to travel to California to testify at trial, so be it, damn it. That 2K card is THAT important to me.


Yeah so the total people that are pissed off adds up to 2k...the guy with the 60k loss isnt pissed off. People in america never sue but why would they if they are willing to wait 5 years for review because as you said 'what choice to they have' or apparently everyone is being paid back on the guarantee...

why all this talk if everyone is satisfied..

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'm not convinced he's a lawyer. No one could be this clueless, even the shittiest slip and fall lawyer.

The average value of a trimmed card in this mess is probably $2000. Let's say it's $5000. Jake, do you think people are going to run to sue over that amount of money? Or will they try like hell to do anything they can to avoid paying a lawyer more money than the value of the card they're suing over? Even the guy with the trimmed PSA 10 Musial didn't sue immediately. He's clearly trying to get his money back without the need for costly, lengthy litigation.

Everyone will try to get their money back....people are arguing right here on this forum about whether certain cards are trimmed or not yet it appears everyone with a claim will get paid back exactly how they want. I would think there will be disagreements with some claims whether its whether the card should of been deemed trimmed or what the worth of the card is and who should pay it etc.

If you have 10 cards that are 5k each it adds up. I thought we are talking about 100s of cards.. BP oil after the spill said they will pay everyone what they owe yet there were still lawsuits.

I just saying that thus far everyone seems happy. I will wait 2 months from now to see if any lawsuits. I hope you at least agree that gives enough time for PSA to review the cards that are submitted. as Peter said 'what choice do they (buyers) have'

[bnorth]

Everyone will try to get their money back....people are arguing right here on this forum about whether certain cards are trimmed or not yet it appears everyone with a claim will get paid back exactly how they want. I would think there will be disagreements with some claims whether its whether the card should of been deemed trimmed or what the worth of the card is and who should pay it etc.

If you have 10 cards that are 5k each it adds up. I thought we are talking about 100s of cards.. BP oil after the spill said they will pay everyone what they owe yet there were still lawsuits.

I just saying that thus far everyone seems happy. I will wait 2 months from now to see if any lawsuits. I hope you at least agree that gives enough time for PSA to review the cards that are submitted. as Peter said 'what choice do they (buyers) have'

Jake you seem pretty happy, have you filed a lawsuit yet? Don't you have some expensive high grade PSA cards or did you sell all your cards?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake you seem pretty happy, have you filed a lawsuit yet? Don't you have some expensive high grade PSA cards or did you sell all your cards?

I dont have any altered cards, if i did, you know what i would be doing....

[darwinbulldog]

.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I dont have any altered cards....

Best quote of the day. Thanks Jake.

How can you be so sure by the way? Just askin'.

[BLongley]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792429&postcount=3405

[bnorth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792429&postcount=3405

Looks like they hit SGC hard at the national last year with some big cards.:(

[Republicaninmass]

Best quote of the day. Thanks Jake.

How can you be so sure by the way? Just askin'.

Take a wild guess

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Everyone will try to get their money back....people are arguing right here on this forum about whether certain cards are trimmed or not yet it appears everyone with a claim will get paid back exactly how they want. I would think there will be disagreements with some claims whether its whether the card should of been deemed trimmed or what the worth of the card is and who should pay it etc.

If you have 10 cards that are 5k each it adds up. I thought we are talking about 100s of cards.. BP oil after the spill said they will pay everyone what they owe yet there were still lawsuits.

I just saying that thus far everyone seems happy. I will wait 2 months from now to see if any lawsuits. I hope you at least agree that gives enough time for PSA to review the cards that are submitted. as Peter said 'what choice do they (buyers) have'

Jake, do you think ALL of the PWCC buyers of Gary Moser related cards have been notified that they may own an altered card? If not, do you think PWCC should notify them or should the buyers just have to figure it all out on their own? Do you think PWCC should release to the public a list of all cards connected to Moser?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake, do you think ALL of the PWCC buyers of Gary Moser related cards have been notified that they may own an altered card? If not, do you think PWCC should notify them or should the buyers just have to figure it all out on their own? Do you think PWCC should release to the public a list of all cards connected to Moser?

It doesnt matter about what they should do for everyone. I still wondering when just 1 'wronged' purchaser files a lawsuit and a lots of issues will be addressed in discovery.

However it appears thus far everyone is willing to wait months to have their cards reviewed that they bought for 10k but were sold months before for 3k as much lower graded card (and have before and after pictures of an alteration/trimming because

a) what choice do they have
b) they are already been reimbursed and everyone agrees what a fair price
c) not worth their time (out of state court) and costs involved/legal fees

[1952boyntoncollector]

Best quote of the day. Thanks Jake.

How can you be so sure by the way? Just askin'.

I dont think my 1987 topps raw in fair grade have been altered but you are free to go through the 4000 cards to prove me wrong...

[vintagetoppsguy]

I thought I read somewhere that some of the BO guys were planning to go to the National and hang out near PWCCs table to hand out flyers to get the word to more collectors. Is that right? If so, do they planning on hanging out near PSA's table too? Would they be escorted out by security?

[Dpeck100]

I thought I read somewhere that some of the BO guys were planning to go to the National and hang out near PWCCs table to hand out flyers to get the word to more collectors. Is that right? If so, do they planning on hanging out near PSA's table too? Would they be escorted out by security?

I went to the National in 2013 in Chicago and I would have to assume this type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated and they would be removed immediately.

If they plan something like this they should stand out front of the Rosemont Center and hand out fliers as people cross the street.

Obviously all parties are reading the various boards and so they will know issues like this might be coming and will prep security in advance and potentially have their own funded security.

Bad idea to try this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I went to the National in 2013 in Chicago and I would have to assume this type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated and they would be removed immediately.

If they plan something like this they should stand out front of the Rosemont Center and hand out fliers as people cross the street.

Obviously all parties are reading the various boards and so they will know issues like this might be coming and will prep security in advance and potentially have their own funded security.

Bad idea to try this.

Maybe they can hire some wrestling guys. :eek:

[Dpeck100]

Maybe they can hire some wrestling guys. :eek:

Peter I would expect that some parties that have been named will show up with their own private security.

A month or so back I was at the gym and saw a dude doing curls with the largest arms I have ever seen in person. I ended up close to him doing some sets and said OMG I have never seen arms that big and we shook hands and I got his Instagram name so I could follow his bodybuilding progress. It turns out he does a lot of private security I see from looking at his pics. He is the type of dude that will be hired is my bet. No one is going to run their mouth to this guy. No one.

Not only is safety obviously a concern but so would retaliation. The last thing anyone needs is someone getting in their face and a fight ensuing and then a lawsuit or jail.

If I had to bet I think a lot of the people that are saying they have plans to cause a scene or confront certain individuals will chicken out.

One thing for sure it will be an interesting show.

[topcat61]

Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.;)

You remember SGC graders were involved in grading forged signatures, which would fall under the preview of the FBI. I believe they're still working that case. The SEC would only look at this company if it were publicly traded. It appears to be an LLC.

[jason.1969]

Just for kicks. My opinion, let's see what others think.



PSA -- only thing I have seen is the Sloan letter, which I would grade an F.

Beckett -- is there a grade lower than F?

PWCC -- last thing I have seen is the piece about slandering cards. If they're

making serious restitution behind the scenes then good, but as to their public response, D. (At least they indicated an intent to cut off card doctors, although the jury is out.)

LOTG -- A+. Thanks to Al for taking a stand.

Scott R -- A+ for speaking out and condemning the fraud.

Other AH's and dealers (and sorry if I have missed any who have spoken out) -- radio silence. Very encouraging that you're all stepping up to the plate and offering your perspective and guidance to the collectors on whom you depend. F.

SGC -- N/A as they haven't really been tagged, yet.

Gary -- told NYT he didn't alter cards, only bumped them. F.+1

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[calvindog]

You remember SGC graders were involved in grading forged signatures, which would fall under the preview of the FBI. I believe they're still working that case. The SEC would only look at this company if it were publicly traded. It appears to be an LLC.

The investigation is of the forger, not SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The investigation is of the forger, not SGC.

No lawsuits yet. No problems. Cases were brought within days of the BP oil spill.

[calvindog]

No lawsuits yet. No problems. Cases were brought within days of the BP oil spill.

An SGC slab contained an altered card, ergo the FBI is about to arrest everyone at SGC.

[bnorth]

An SGC slab contained an altered card, ergo the FBI is about to arrest everyone at SGC.

BLEEP, no wonder my current submission is taking so long.:rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter I would expect that some parties that have been named will show up with their own private security.

A month or so back I was at the gym and saw a dude doing curls with the largest arms I have ever seen in person. I ended up close to him doing some sets and said OMG I have never seen arms that big and we shook hands and I got his Instagram name so I could follow his bodybuilding progress. It turns out he does a lot of private security I see from looking at his pics. He is the type of dude that will be hired is my bet. No one is going to run their mouth to this guy. No one.

Not only is safety obviously a concern but so would retaliation. The last thing anyone needs is someone getting in their face and a fight ensuing and then a lawsuit or jail.

If I had to bet I think a lot of the people that are saying they have plans to cause a scene or confront certain individuals will chicken out.

One thing for sure it will be an interesting show.

Dave knowing how this hobby works half those people will be lining up to consign.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I dont think my 1987 topps raw in fair grade have been altered but you are free to go through the 4000 cards to prove me wrong...

I wouldn't spend any time looking at the 1987 Topps raw. But all those pretty 1952 Topps and 1954 Topps PSA cards likely have an altered card or two mixed in. So again, how do you know they aren't?

[Peter_Spaeth]

An SGC slab contained an altered card, ergo the FBI is about to arrest everyone at SGC.

That will teach them to miss bleach. Criminal negligence!!

[Johnny630]

Have we come up with any Gangster Nick Names for these notorious Card Doctors Yet ? Would love to hear some funny ones to lighten the mood on this awful subject.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Check out Sports Card Radio.

[kateighty]

Have we come up with any Gangster Nick Names for these notorious Card Doctors Yet ? Would love to hear some funny ones to lighten the mood on this awful subject.

What Peter said. I think "Dollar Tree" is my favorite so far.

[Johnny630]

Which one is dollar tree ?
Someone told me there is some guy called Magic Touch.
Is sport card radio a website ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/

[Johnny630]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/

Thanks Peter

[calvindog]

I wouldn't spend any time looking at the 1987 Topps raw. But all those pretty 1952 Topps and 1954 Topps PSA cards likely have an altered card or two mixed in. So again, how do you know they aren't?

He knows because there have been no lawsuits about the cards. Harm prevented.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I wouldn't spend any time looking at the 1987 Topps raw. But all those pretty 1952 Topps and 1954 Topps PSA cards likely have an altered card or two mixed in. So again, how do you know they aren't?

I dont have those cards anymore that were in the PSA registry. So you wouldnt spend any time looking at the 1987 topps raw but yet find it hard to believe I know they were not altered?

[1952boyntoncollector]

He knows because there have been no lawsuits about the cards. Harm prevented.

Nah but you you believe no one would file suit on a 100k fraud because too much time and effort involved and in America nobody sues for anything because of all the time and fees. Or everyone always agrees to resolve things before a lawsuit and everyone always agrees to the numbers about how much a card is worth

The value of a card is never argued. Everyone is being paid back to their satisfaction, harm prevented.

[Johnny630]

Nah but you you believe no one would file suit on a 100k fraud because too much time and effort involved and in America nobody sues for anything because of all the time and fees. Or everyone always agrees to resolve things before a lawsuit and everyone always agrees to the numbers about how much a card is worth

The value of a card is never argued. Everyone is being paid back to their satisfaction, harm prevented.

Agree.

Number 1 for PSA is be quiet.....Sure they're gonna say all the right thing during this time... Crisis Management Mode for Newport Beach.
They will weather the storm....people only care about money...... as long as people keep buying in that there product will bring their cards the most money they will continue to thrive.
The Lines at this Years National Will Prove My Theory
It's a Sad State Of Affairs

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agree.

Number 1 for PSA is be quiet.....Sure they're gonna say all the right thing during this time... Crisis Management Mode for Newport Beach.
They will weather the storm....people only care about money...... as long as people keep buying in that there product will bring their cards the most money they will continue to thrive.
The Lines at this Years National Will Prove My Theory
It's a Sad State Of Affairs

Deny Minimize Contain Deflect Reassure

Repeat the same empty slogans. Maybe they even believe them?

And -- as the song from Evita goes -- the money kept rolling in.

[Rich Klein]

Deny Minimize Contain Deflect Reassure

Repeat the same empty slogans. Maybe they even believe them?

And -- as the song from Evita goes -- the money kept rolling in.

And Evita had a sad early ending to her life. Dead by age 33.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I dont have those cards anymore that were in the PSA registry. So you wouldnt spend any time looking at the 1987 topps raw but yet find it hard to believe I know they were not altered?

So all you have now is a bunch of 1987 Topps raw cards in your collection? No more PSA cards anymore? How do you manage all the excitement there?

[warrior1978]

I went through 142 pages on the blowout cards forum seeing if I formerly owned any of the altered cards and to save scans of cards I may have been interested in the future had this scandal not been opposed.

I was specifically interested in Cobb cards. For statistically purposes, I found 13 altered prewar Ty Cobb cards in those 142 pages. They were T206s, T205s, D304 and T227s. 11 had been goofed by PSA and 2 goofed by SGC.

[1952boyntoncollector]

So all you have now is a bunch of 1987 Topps raw cards in your collection? No more PSA cards anymore? How do you manage all the excitement there?

I have some PSA cards not on the registry. You want to go through my 1974 Topps PSA 3 commons? I will say they are unaltered as well. I always on the lookout for old high dollar cards and sometimes I have a bunch sometimes I dont. Right now I know I dont have any altered cards. However you are free to look through my raw 1987 topps and low grade 1974 topps and the like..

[CobbSpikedMe]

I have some PSA cards not on the registry. You want to go through my 1974 Topps PSA 3 commons? I will say they are unaltered as well. I always on the lookout for old high dollar cards and sometimes I have a bunch sometimes I dont. Right now I know I dont have any altered cards. However you are free to look through my raw 1987 topps and low grade 1974 topps and the like..

You make me smile Jake. Thank you. :)

[Leon]

How about if a board lawyer is representing any of the involved fraudulent parties? You don't need a lawsuit to take a retainer do you? A retainer would be considered work, right? I am not saying there are any representing anyone but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

talk is cheap, when there are actual lawsuits, there will be something to really discuss.... everyone can say all the witty things they want back and forth but its just talk until theres an actual lawsuit.

[Kenny Cole]

I can assure you that I, for one, am not. I sincerely hope that ALL the fraudsters are charged criminally, and I also hope they get their asses sued off civilly. PSA also needs to back up its warranty. I hope it gets its ass sued off too if it doesn't.

To Jake, despite your claims, sometimes it takes a while. I agree with Peter on that. You are allegedly a lawyer. I mean, seriously? Give me a break.

[Leon]

Something tells me each lawyer in this thread can't say the same thing.

I can assure you that I, for one, am not. I sincerely hope that ALL the fraudsters are charged criminally, and I also hope they get their asses sued off civilly. PSA also needs to back up its warranty. I hope it gets its ass sued off too if it doesn't.

To Jake, despite your claims, sometimes it takes a while. I agree with Peter on that. You are allegedly a lawyer. I mean, seriously? Give me a break.

[1952boyntoncollector]

How about if a board lawyer is representing any of the involved fraudulent parties? You don't need a lawsuit to take a retainer do you? A retainer would be considered work, right? I am not saying there are any representing anyone but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Lawsuits are a whole different animal then some lawyer sending a letter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I can assure you that I, for one, am not. I sincerely hope that ALL the fraudsters are charged criminally, and I also hope they get their asses sued off civilly. PSA also needs to back up its warranty. I hope it gets its ass sued off too if it doesn't.

To Jake, despite your claims, sometimes it takes a while. I agree with Peter on that. You are allegedly a lawyer. I mean, seriously? Give me a break.

Enough time has passed that if this was such a huge deal and there were victims everywhere a lawsuit would of been filed. Maybe down the line there will be some but apparently this issue isnt so bad .

Not all lawsuits take forever. Plenty are filed and settled very fast and quickly which avoids fees and costs. Lets not kid ourselves that most lawsuits go to trial

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Lawsuits are a whole different animal then some lawyer sending a letter.

How do you not understand what Leon is saying???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jake is going to post the same thought as many times and in as many threads as he can. It doesn't matter what he's responding to.

NO LAWSUITS YET.
MUST NOT BE A BIG DEAL.

[Rhotchkiss]

Something tells me each lawyer in this thread can't say the same thing.

+1. Unfortunate, if true.

[steve B]

Jake is going to post the same thought as many times and in as many threads as he can. It doesn't matter what he's responding to.

NO LAWSUITS YET.
MUST NOT BE A BIG DEAL.

Add that to the "just let it go" and the "as long as the cards value isn't affected there's no problem" people, it makes me wonder if the Doctor/PSA supporters are involved or just don't care about anything but money.

[Johnny630]

Add that to the "just let it go" and the "as long as the cards value isn't affected there's no problem" people, it makes me wonder if the Doctor/PSA supporters are involved or just don't care about anything but money.

They only care about money...it’s sad....it’s been a Industry for years.....
Hobby what’s that anymore .....Oy vey

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake is going to post the same thought as many times and in as many threads as he can. It doesn't matter what he's responding to.

NO LAWSUITS YET.
MUST NOT BE A BIG DEAL.

and you will will keep citing certain card sale and point over and over how wrong it is yet no 'victims' are filing lawsuits..

There are terrible things that happen in which lawsuits are filed, and there are terrible things that happen to a lesser degree in which lawsuits are not filed

[bnorth]

Jake is going to post the same thought as many times and in as many threads as he can. It doesn't matter what he's responding to.

NO LAWSUITS YET.
MUST NOT BE A BIG DEAL.

I am guessing he is looking for work or he found a client and has no idea what to do. So he is hoping someone on here can help out a fellow lawyer who is lost. Why else would someone post the same thing over and over?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I am guessing he is looking for work or he found a client and has no idea what to do. So he is hoping someone on here can help out a fellow lawyer who is lost. Why else would someone post the same thing over and over?

so you are guessing. Most of this topic is filled with people saying the same thing over and over and guessing. Maybe you are trying to get clients to refer to a lawyer, i just guessing. Now are are both guessing and saying things.

Now lets see if you guess again and and post the same thing over and over.

[jhs5120]

so you are guessing. Most of this topic is filled with people saying the same thing over and over and guessing. Maybe you are trying to get clients to refer to a lawyer, i just guessing. Now are are both guessing and saying things.

Now lets see if you guess again and and post the same thing over and over.

Am I having a stroke?

[bnorth]

so you are guessing. Most of this topic is filled with people saying the same thing over and over and guessing. Maybe you are trying to get clients to refer to a lawyer, i just guessing. Now are are both guessing and saying things.

Now lets see if you guess again and and post the same thing over and over.

At least i am honest and say I am guessing. You keep repeating the same thing over and over after being told you are WRONG. I know DFTT, sorry guys.:D

[1952boyntoncollector]

At least i am honest and say I am guessing. You keep repeating the same thing over and over after being told you are WRONG. I know DFTT, sorry guys.:D

Ok so you are guessing and saying the same thing over and over.

So you telling me I am wrong is also guess as well. The people agreeing nothing will happen at all are also guessing. I will be guessing, you will be guessing, we all will be guessing. It will be anarchy (breakfast club)

DFTT as well to you.. .sorry guys.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

always interesting to look what he quotes given who he represents now

[Republicaninmass]

always interesting to look what he quotes given who he represents now

Wow A real lawyer!

[ALBB]

Im sure glad I collect low grade cheap cards

[Johnny630]

This one takes the cake as the absolute worst of the worst to me

Ray Charles could have seen this....

Mr. Orlando could you please explain what’s your Opinion On this One??

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068