PSA/BGS/PWCC dispute or refund thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought it might be helpful as we monitor the response to the revelations to start one thread where people can post their success, or lack thereof, at requesting any of the above parties to take their card back and refund their purchase price, or for that matter to review it.

[jhs5120]

I’d imagine PSA and PWCC will ask impacted collectors to sign NDA’s, but I could be wrong.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

I’d imagine PSA and PWCC will ask impacted collectors to sign NDA’s, but I could be wrong.

What leverage would they have for that. It wasn't in PSA's boilerplate (afaik) that they'd honor their guarantee only if you help them sweep their own mess under the rug. I'd think the costs to execute and enforce an NDA would probably be prohibitive as well...

[jhs5120]

What leverage would they have for that.

Money..

Here's the guarantee: https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

"Certain exceptions to the Guarantee apply"

[benjulmag]

Money..

Here's the guarantee: https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

"Certain exceptions to the Guarantee apply"

Here's the wording of the "exceptions" language:

Certain exceptions to the Guarantee apply, including, but not limited to, the following: the Guarantee does not apply to any card as to which an obvious clerical error has been made with respect to the assigned grade or description; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been removed from the PSA holder or any card for which the PSA holder shows evidence of tampering; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been environmentally damaged due to improper storage or natural disasters, such as fire and flood; the Guarantee does not apply to cards exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to initial grading; the Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

The described exceptions are fairly comprehensive, and I wonder what PSA could hope to add that a court would enforce. In my experience when I see the phrase "including, but not limited" it refers to a somewhat specific category (e.g., nonstructural repairs) that in and itself is either reasonably self-explanatory or has a defined meaning. And even at that when I use such a term I try to list all the important examples I can think of. Here, the word "exceptions" is very broad and can mean essentially whatever PSA could want it to mean. I question whether if PSA tried to include something not already listed a court would enforce it.

[xplainer]

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

[benjulmag]

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

That was my first reaction when I saw it. However, I can see a valid purpose -- to prevent a card doctor from benefiting from his doctoring. Such a person improves, say, a 3 to an 8, and then tries to profit from his doctoring by invoking the Guarantee.

[jhs5120]

Here's the wording of the "exceptions" language:

Certain exceptions to the Guarantee apply, including, but not limited to, the following: the Guarantee does not apply to any card as to which an obvious clerical error has been made with respect to the assigned grade or description; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been removed from the PSA holder or any card for which the PSA holder shows evidence of tampering; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been environmentally damaged due to improper storage or natural disasters, such as fire and flood; the Guarantee does not apply to cards exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to initial grading; the Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

The described exceptions are fairly comprehensive, and I wonder what PSA could hope to add that a court would enforce. In my experience when I see the phrase "including, but not limited" it refers to a somewhat specific category (e.g., nonstructural repairs) that in and itself is either reasonably self-explanatory or has a defined meaning. And even at that when I use such a term I try to list all the important examples I can think of. Here, the word "exceptions" is very broad and can mean essentially whatever PSA could want it to mean. I question whether if PSA tried to include something not already listed a court would enforce it.


I'd imagine that PSA would potentially offer reimbursement to victims contingent on an NDA. I doubt anyone would refuse reimbursement and test the PSA guarantee in court.

Again, I could be wrong. Some forum members have already said that they have cards and will reach out to PSA/PWCC. Have any of them provided updates? I personally have not seen them. I'm just assuming PSA and PWCC are sending out NDA's.

[Bram99]

What leverage would they have for that. It wasn't in PSA's boilerplate (afaik) that they'd honor their guarantee only if you help them sweep their own mess under the rug. I'd think the costs to execute and enforce an NDA would probably be prohibitive as well...

Could always have two prices, one with and one without the NDA.

[Bram99]

Here's the wording of the "exceptions" language:

Certain exceptions to the Guarantee apply, including, but not limited to, the following: the Guarantee does not apply to any card as to which an obvious clerical error has been made with respect to the assigned grade or description; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been removed from the PSA holder or any card for which the PSA holder shows evidence of tampering; the Guarantee does not apply to any card that has been environmentally damaged due to improper storage or natural disasters, such as fire and flood; the Guarantee does not apply to cards exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to initial grading; the Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

The described exceptions are fairly comprehensive, and I wonder what PSA could hope to add that a court would enforce. In my experience when I see the phrase "including, but not limited" it refers to a somewhat specific category (e.g., nonstructural repairs) that in and itself is either reasonably self-explanatory or has a defined meaning. And even at that when I use such a term I try to list all the important examples I can think of. Here, the word "exceptions" is very broad and can mean essentially whatever PSA could want it to mean. I question whether if PSA tried to include something not already listed a court would enforce it.

PSA”s risk isn’t simply whether they have to pay out financially on the guarantee.

The bigger risk in my opinion is to their reputation. First risk is if the story gets out that a large portion of the cards they have graded are not the grade they assigned. If it could be proved the grading error was on purpose, that would be worse. It would compound the reputations damage if word got out that when they have made a mistake (assuming unintentional), that they don’t stand behind the Guarantee.

In that case word should spread that they are both incompetent and won’t stand behind the service they were paid for.

Or those who control the industry could have NYT or Forbes just issue an article that paints the collector claiming they are wronged as a crazy fringe element and the whole affair is just a matter of taste and opinion as to whether alteration and conservation are ok. Also the article might point out that some cards that are altered (like the most famous and expensive card in the world) are known to be altered but have increased in value.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you're Brent, and your reputation is at stake, and you're giving refunds, don't you WANT people to be talking about that?

[MULLINS5]

I wouldn't sign an NDA, but I can see why PSA would want it.

[jhs5120]

If you're Brent, and your reputation is at stake, and you're giving refunds, don't you WANT people to be talking about that?

I'd imagine no. I wouldn't want additional cards and submissions added to the list of impacted cards. Nor would I want high rollers speaking publicly about getting swindled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd imagine no. I wouldn't want additional cards and submissions added to the list of impacted cards. Nor would I want high rollers speaking publicly about getting swindled.

Oh, those are going to be added anyhow, I imagine.

Not sure his best road to restoring confidence is to ask us to take him at his word. We see where that's gone before.

[jhs5120]

Oh, those are going to be added anyhow, I imagine.

Not sure his best road to restoring confidence is to ask us to take him at his word. We see where that's gone before.

You might be right. Either way, I can’t see a benefit to PSA, BVG or PWCC in having settlement figures and details public knowledge

[Peter_Spaeth]

You might be right. Either way, I can’t see a benefit to PSA, BVG or PWCC in having settlement figures and details public knowledge

Yeah, honesty, openness and disclosure are not good things from their perspective I suppose. Sad but probably true. Considering who we're talking about, why would I expect it, so naïve of me.

[jhs5120]

Yeah, honesty, openness and disclosure are not good things from their perspective I suppose. Sad but probably true. Considering who we're talking about, why would I expect it, so naïve of me.

Openness and disclosure has only led to additional liabilities for PWCC in the past. Eventually I’d think they’d learn from those mistakes.

[Republicaninmass]

What no SGC?

Forged t206 and their answer

"Since Forgery is a federal offense, you can contact the FBI for restitution "

[calvindog]

I wouldn't sign an NDA, but I can see why PSA would want it.

Agreed.

[frankrizzo29]

That was my first reaction when I saw it. However, I can see a valid purpose -- to prevent a card doctor from benefiting from his doctoring. Such a person improves, say, a 3 to an 8, and then tries to profit from his doctoring by invoking the Guarantee.


That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

[barrysloate]

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

I'll guess they will say that after re-examining the four cards carefully, all appear to be unaltered.

[wondo]

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

How did you end up with the cards? Did you buy them thinking them altered. Did you re-examine them and have doubts? Were they on any of the suspicious sub lists? It’s nice that 20 responses down someone contributes to the original purpose of the thread - thank you and please let us know your progress.

[steve B]

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

So that's why they want them returned to the sellers.
That's about as dodgy as it gets.

[frankrizzo29]

How did you end up with the cards? Did you buy them thinking them altered. Did you re-examine them and have doubts? Were they on any of the suspicious sub lists? It’s nice that 20 responses down someone contributes to the original purpose of the thread - thank you and please let us know your progress.

I purchased these cards from Ebay and from private collectors awhile ago. All 4 cards are T206. They were already slabbed when I bought them. 3 are PSA 7s and one is a PSA 7.5, so my expectations were that they weren't altered in any way. With all of the recent exposures I thought I'd re-examine the cards. Since they were in slabs already I never looked at them with a blacklight. I decided to use a blacklight on all of my cards just because, and low and behold I found these 4 cards had their corners colored. What's interesting to me is that these cards are in holders from a long time ago, so PSA missed this way back than.

I'll definitely post the outcome. I'm sending then in this week.

[Kenny Cole]

You used a blacklight? To detect alterations? What a novel concept. It's a wonder the TPGers, particularly PSA and Beckett thus far, haven't figured that out. What do we pay them to do?

[swarmee]

So that's why they want them returned to the sellers.
That's about as dodgy as it gets.

As a person who recommended it to Mr. Sloan by email, I think it's more prudent than dodgy. But I only recommended they get returned to PWCC, not every seller. PWCC is complicit in the scandal beyond a reasonable doubt IMO and would have to pay it out of hide.
Why take on all that additional liability when the guarantee stiffs fraudulent submitters and card doctors? If the sale never happened, the grade guarantee doesn't need to be paid out.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

I purchased these cards from Ebay and from private collectors awhile ago. All 4 cards are T206. They were already slabbed when I bought them. 3 are PSA 7s and one is a PSA 7.5, so my expectations were that they weren't altered in any way. With all of the recent exposures I thought I'd re-examine the cards. Since they were in slabs already I never looked at them with a blacklight. I decided to use a blacklight on all of my cards just because, and low and behold I found these 4 cards had their corners colored. What's interesting to me is that these cards are in holders from a long time ago, so PSA missed this way back than.

I'll definitely post the outcome. I'm sending then in this week.

This is somehow at once totally unbelievable and utterly believable. I mean, it sort of confirms - as if we needed it - that they PSA naked-eyeballs a significant amount of these (read: all of these), and upon passing that test, there is no further examination as to alteration.

Are you going to tip them off to the alteration, or see if they even bother to check at all?

[benjulmag]

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

PSA can direct all it wants that a person return his/her doctored card to the seller but there is nothing in the Guarantee that requires a person to do so provided the card when purchased was already graded. A person doctors a card to profit from the doctoring, which can happen only if the card is sold already with the bogus grade. If the card doctor is not the person who submits the card for grading, then typically it would be an AH (e.g., PWCC) doing it on the card doctor's behalf. The victim in this instance would be the person who then purchases the card from the AH, and that victim would be free to invoke the Guarantee and return the card to PSA.

So, to get back to the exception in the Guarantee that prohibits the original submitter from invoking it, that exception should not have an impact upon a person who in good faith purchases a graded doctored card.

It will be interesting to see what PSA does when it receives the 4 cards you are returning to them. I am not questioning that they are altered, but what is your proof? The part of the Guarantee that could cause you the most trouble is the exception that prevents you from taking them out of the slab to better examine them. That exception obviously has a valid purpose behind its insertion, but also serves a nefarious purpose -- to prevent detailed forensic examination of the card. So you could be in a Catch 22 -- unless you have before and after pics of the card, in order to prove it is doctored you might have to take it out of the slab, but if you do so, you are prevented from invoking the Guarantee.

If the day should come when technology comes to the rescue and a new TPG forms using as it business model advanced forensic analysis to detect doctoring, at that point I can foresee a day of reckoning for PSA. PSA will of course rely on the "taking-out-of-the-slab prohibition" exception in the Guarantee to insure a doctored card is not examined by such advanced methods. People will scream how else can they prove the card is doctored to successfully invoke the Guarantee. It would seem inevitable at that point that a person will take the card out of the slab under circumstances (e.g., video recording) that will establish the removal was done for the sole purpose of doing a forensic examination that otherwise could not be done, and that no fraud is being perpetrated on PSA. A court, if looking to interpret the Guarantee exception as narrowly as possible, will try to find a way to rule for the victimized card owner, perhaps by ignoring the literal wording of the Guarantee and looking at the intent behind the exception.

The Guarantee also provides all cases adjudicated under it must be brought in Orange County, which is John Wayne territory. I wonder if the state court in that jurisdiction would take as sympathetic a view toward such a plaintiff than would a court in a different jurisdiction. In contrast, the federal court in that circuit is regarded as a very liberal court. The Guarantee does not require that cases brought under it be brought in state court only, so whether to file in state or federal court will be an important decision the plaintiff's lawyer will need to make.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

[Johnny630]

What happens when PWCC runs out of money to return buyers of affective cards who request returns/refunds ? Where is their money coming from ? Is something being worked out behind the scenes with them and psa to cya ? Is psa funding them to keep up with their buy backs of bad stuff ??
Idk food for thought ??

[AddieJoss]

On Monday I received an 8k refund from PWCC for 7 cards I returned. 3 were clearly altered (only because I found before photos) and the other 4 were on a list out there but I couldn’t find the evidence myself.

Cory Weiser

[benjulmag]

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

[MULLINS5]

Where is their money coming from ?

"over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019."

[MULLINS5]

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

Maybe a stupid question...but what could be the benefit of PSA moving a case from state to federal court?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe a stupid question...but what could be the benefit of PSA moving a case from state to federal court?

PSA can't move a case from state to federal court, if it's brought in state court.

As to Corey's initial thoughts, I don't see any basis to speculate that a plaintiff in one of these cases would be better off in federal court if he had the choice. Too many assumptions there with no facts.

[bounce]

On Monday I received an 8k refund from PWCC for 7 cards I returned. 3 were clearly altered (only because I found before photos) and the other 4 were on a list out there but I couldn’t find the evidence myself.

Cory Weiser

Can you still bid or did you get banned? Wondering if the previous person who said that happened to them was a one off, or ongoing issue for requesting returns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

[1952boyntoncollector]

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

apparently its a great guarantee and you will be completely satisfied or it wont be worth your time to pursue litigation.

Or maybe you will have to wait 3 months or more to get a response because 'what choice do you have'

[Johnny630]

No responsibility for any card doctor, they won’t be held responsible. GM is like F them Prove it I got it in a PSA Holder so up yours....you can’t touch me....nobody in the past who got caught doctoring cards has ever been charged or held criminally responsible...these guys will continue to get around this using surrogates to submit and auction houses will only take cards in holders from people with no bad history in other words doctors will have other people submit the cards to the AH for them....the cycle will continue

[1952boyntoncollector]

No responsibility for any card doctor, they won’t be held responsible. GM is like F them Prove it I got it in a PSA Holder so up yours....you can’t touch me....nobody in the past who got caught doctoring cards has ever been charged or held criminally responsible...these guys will continue to get around this using surrogates to submit and auction houses will only take cards in holders from people with no bad history in other words doctors will have other people submit the cards to the AH for them....the cycle will continue

nice to see people getting their money back. They cycle may continue but will be not as big as I would assume PSA paying out thousands will make them more observant for future grading...

[Fuddjcal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwo0XHcYHBM

The Hotfoot Insurance company is offering 1 million for a black eye?

Sounds exactly like PSA's guarantee.

[perezfan]

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

Sadly, most collectors who've been taken to the cleaners and victimized don't even know it (and likely never will).

It is a relatively small percentage of collectors who frequent these boards, and unless the word gets out to a mass audience, the "Bad Actor Facilitators" (meaning PSA and PWCC) are largely off the hook.

Perhaps word will spread a bit further in Chicago, the first week of August.

[swarmee]

Uffdah responded on blowout that he has been reimbursed by PWCC for his PSA 10 Musial and additional ones that were fingered.

[calvindog]

Uffdah responded on blowout that he has been reimbursed by PWCC for his PSA 10 Musial and additional ones that were fingered.

If he would have sued he could have gotten paid back last week. What a sucker.

[Kenny Cole]

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

My understanding, FWIW from a buddy I went to law school with who now practices there, is that you don't really want to be in the Central District of California as a plaintiff. He won't even take a case if it will go there. Orange County is also bad, as I understand it. That forum selection clause PSA has, if enforceable, is a huge problem for a lot of plaintiffs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My understanding, FWIW from a buddy I went to law school with who now practices there, is that you don't really want to be in the Central District of California as a plaintiff. He won't even take a case if it will go there. Orange County is also bad, as I understand it. That forum selection clause PSA has, if enforceable, is a huge problem for a lot of plaintiffs.

Doesn't that strike you as an awfully big generalization?

[Kenny Cole]

Doesn't that strike you as an awfully big generalization?

No, not really. Yes, plaintiffs win cases in the Central District, I'm sure. Particularly if they are corporate plaintiffs I suspect. There is a reason why there is a forum selection clause. It isn't because that is a neutral forum. You know that as well as I do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No, not really. Yes, plaintiffs win cases in the Central District, I'm sure. Particularly if they are corporate plaintiffs I suspect. There is a reason why there is a forum selection clause. It isn't because that is a neutral forum. You know that as well as I do.

There are probably thousands of pending cases in those federal and state courts and countless thousands which have been decided. To make a sweeping statement such as you have made, based on what your law school buddy says, seems ridiculous to me. They are located IN Orange County which doubtless is why they selected that forum, most such clauses select the home forum as a matter of convenience so they don't have to defend litigation in far away places. If you are going to make a sweeping statement like plaintiffs have very little chance in two huge districts in California you need much more support than you have offered. You're smarter than that, Kenny, I know you are.

[Kenny Cole]

There are probably thousands of pending cases in those federal and state courts and countless thousands which have been decided. To make a sweeping statement such as you have made, based on what your law school buddy says, seems ridiculous to me. They are located IN Orange County which doubtless is why they selected that forum, most such clauses select the home forum as a matter of convenience so they don't have to defend litigation in far away places. If you are going to make some sweeping statement like plaintiffs have very little chance in two huge districts you need more support than you have offered.

LOL, OK. I bet at your firm, you don't ever talk about where the venue is good or bad, or which judges you think will help or hurt you, right? Phuuulease.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL, OK. I bet at your firm, you don't ever talk about where the venue is good or bad, or which judges you think will help or hurt you, right? Phuuulease.

Sure, but not at a global level like that. As to what judge might be a better draw for a particular case, of course, but even then there is a tea leaf quality about it sometimes. But you're way beyond that, generalizing about an entire court system, two actually. And on the basis of one guy's opinion, no less. Come on.

[Kenny Cole]

Sure, but not at a global level like that. As to what judge might be a better draw for a particular case, of course. But you're way beyond that, generalizing about an entire court system, two actually.

I don't believe that for a minute. You can look that sort of stuff up. I am not saying that you are screwed regardless, but I am certainly saying that both are the worst venues, at least in California, that a plaintiff can file in.

We have one of these Districts here. We will not even file a case if we think it might be removed there. That's been the case for 15 years. There is one sitting judge there (who was in my section in law school and who I went to strip bars with back then), one roving judge, and one Senior, who was mean as hell but would let you try your case. Been there twice, both times after being removed. Actually got the Senior Judge once, who remanded the case within a day after getting the briefs, and even my old law school buddy kicked the other case back, finally.

Those districts exist. You know that they do. We both know that. The fact that they exist is, unfortunately, just a fact IMO. I wish they didn't and that everywhere was fair. But they are not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are 29 federal district judges in the Central District of California. I am sure their politics and temperament cover the whole spectrum. Your generalization, to me, without much more analysis, makes no sense at all.

https://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/judges-schedules-procedures

There are apparently even more in Orange County though I did not count how many handle commercial litigation.

https://www.occourts.org/directory/judicial-officers/judicial-officers.html

Again, come on.

You can't cite a single fact to support your proclamation that these are the worst venues for plaintiffs in California. You haven't analyzed the question at all.

[Kenny Cole]

There are 29 federal district judges in the Central District of California. Your generalization, to me, without much more analysis, makes no sense at all.

https://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/judges-schedules-procedures

And I guess that who appointed them will or can make a huge difference in terms of outcome. I am not now, nor have I ever said, that they are all unfair. They are fair, according to their beliefs. If you are a criminal defense lawyer, do you want a career prosecutor as your judge? I would suggest probably not. At least I have been told by some friends who do that they are the worst, particularly on sentencing. Dunno, not my area.

If you do insurance law like I do, do you want an insurance defense lawyer who you have tried cases against as your judge now? I can assure you that I don't. Some are better than others, sure. But it is still a problem. I get that whole "fair" thing. But that is often in the eye of the beholder. Justice is certainly not blind so far as I can tell.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

Have you looked at the demographics in Orange County? I have a first cousin who lives there. My mom and most of my brothers and sisters live one county away. I have a pretty good idea of what's going on there. When I'm confused, I just talk to my cousin. Then I am back on track.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And I guess that who appointed them will or can make a huge difference in terms of outcome. I am not now, nor have I ever said, that they are all unfair. They are fair, according to their beliefs. If you are a criminal defense lawyer, do you want a career prosecutor as your judge? I would suggest probably not. At least I have been told by some friends who do that they are the worst, particularly on sentencing. Dunno, not my area.

If you do insurance law like I do, do you want an insurance defense lawyer who you have tried cases against as your judge now? I can assure you that I don't. Some are better than others, sure. But it is still a problem. I get that whole "fair" thing. But that is often in the eye of the beholder. Justice is certainly not blind so far as I can tell.

You seem to be straying far from your original argument which was that, as a general matter, plaintiffs do not do well in the Central District of California or Orange County. And that that somehow motivated PSA to name its home district in its forum selection clause, something which is standard corporate practice for most American corporations. I don't even know what points you are trying to make now.

But I like agreeing with you, so I'll agree with your last message, the one before Orange County that is lol I can't keep up with you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

Have you looked at the demographics in Orange County? I have a first cousin who lives there. My mom and most of my brothers and sisters live one county away. I have a pretty good idea of what's going on there. When I'm confused, I just talk to my cousin. Then I am back on track.

So what's going on there, Kenny? And how does it connect to the court system and its what, 50+ judges?

[Kenny Cole]

You seem to be straying far from your original argument which was that, as a general matter, plaintiffs do not do well in the Central District of California or Orange County. And that that somehow motivated PSA to name its home district in its forum selection clause, something which is standard corporate practice for most American corporations. I don't even know what points you are trying to make now.

But I like agreeing with you, so I'll agree with your last message.

Do you seriously think they are completely unrelated? i don't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you seriously think they are completely unrelated? i don't.

So Orange County's demographics favor PSA in a suit by one of its customers over a baseball card, as a general proposition unrelated to the facts of the case. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And what about the Central District, you also made the same argument about that court system. Probably as diverse an area, overall, as exists.

[Kenny Cole]

So Orange County's demographics favor PSA in a suit by one of its customers over a baseball card, as a general proposition unrelated to the facts of the case. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Yes, Orange County's demographics favor corporate defendants such as PSA over individual plaintiffs. Wont and cant go into the politics behind that, but that is obviously a huge part of the reason why. As a general proposition I absolutely believe that Orange County is a really bad venue for any individual plaintiff. Period. Not insurmountable, but a problem. You can go try a case there and win, sure, but it is just much harder there than in other areas. It is what it is and life goes on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, Orange County's demographics favor corporate defendants such as PSA over individual plaintiffs. Wont and cant go into the politics behind that, but that is obviously a huge part of the reason why. As a general proposition I absolutely believe that Orange County is a really bad venue for any individual plaintiff. Period. Not insurmountable, but a problem. You can go try a case there and win, sure, but it is just much harder there than in other areas. It is what it is and life goes on.

Again. Based on what analysis? What facts? What statistics? What anything? You're just making shit up as far as I can tell, for what purpose I don't know. It also sounds to me like you're engaging in some serious stereotyping, but let's leave that out of it. And again, you made the exact same statement about the C.D.Cal., an incredibly diverse and huge area.

[Kenny Cole]

Again. Based on what analysis? What facts? What statistics? What anything? You're just making shit up as far as I can tell, for what purpose I don't know.

Go look it up. I am somewhat constrained by the ban on talking about politics, but its pretty easy to get there. How about you do that before you shoot anymore?

[MULLINS5]

Venue written as exclusive and mandatory is a logistical decision - nothing more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Venue written as exclusive and mandatory is a logistical decision - nothing more.

Of course. Every corporation in America, or most, use such clauses to mandate home jurisdictions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Go look it up. I am somewhat constrained by the ban on talking about politics, but its pretty easy to get there. How about you do that before you shoot anymore?

Ridiculous stereotyping if I am reading you correctly. And I take it you have backed off the statement about the C.D.Cal. now which is where you started?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Moreover, guys who go to Orange County to pursue PSA over a baseball card are probably going to be of the same demographic you are hinting at.

[Kenny Cole]

Ridiculous stereotyping if I am reading you correctly. And I take it you have backed off the statement about the C.D.Cal. now which is where you started?

No. I believe that to be true from what I understand. And, I would ask, if you were drafting a forum selection clause for a client in a real liberal venue, would you do that? I would think probably not. That would probably be stupid and would be a disservice to your client absent other concerns. If there was a venue close by that was better for your client, wouldn't you do that? This the same thing, only in reverse. If Orange County wasn't way conservative, do you seriously contend that the forum selection clause would be there, as opposed to a real close but more conservative venue? Not seeing it.

[Kenny Cole]

Moreover, guys who go to Orange County to pursue PSA over a baseball card are probably going to be of the same demographic you are hinting at.

Spare me. It isn't the plaintiff. Its the judge and the jurors, assuming you get there. You know that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No. I believe that to be true from what I understand. And, I would ask, if you were drafting a forum selection clause for a client in a real liberal venue, would you do that? I would think probably not. That would probably be stupid and would be a disservice to your client absent other concerns. If there was a venue close by that was better for your client, wouldn't you do that? This the same thing, only in reverse. If Orange County wasn't way conservative, do you seriously contend that the forum selection clause would be there, as opposed to a real close but more conservative venue? Not seeing it.

I infer nothing other than PSA is in Newport Beach or Santa Ana or whatever and chose its home forum as a matter of convenience, as most companies do. Your argument is assuming its conclusion, namely if Orange County wasn't conservative PSA wouldn't have chosen it.

Now if you said, they choose Orange County because they think a judge or jury might favor an Orange County party, well that might make some sense, but that has nothing to do with the demographics of the forum or its residents or judges.

I think you will find the vast majority of forum selection clauses are home base clauses.

[pokerplyr80]

OC isn't nearly as conservative as it used to be. They just voted in a liberal in the Laguna/Newport district. Demographics are much different in Santa Ana than they are by the water. I know nothing about how judges in the area tend to rule, but if you're saying Santa Ana is a politically conservative area you probably haven't spent much time here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spare me. It isn't the plaintiff. Its the judge and the jurors, assuming you get there. You know that.

Why would the judge and jurors side with a small company against someone of their own demographic, if you think that demographic somehow plays into it which I don't buy? Are you saying being of a certain demographic makes one inherently pro-defendant regardless of the identities of the parties, the nature of the case, the evidence, etc.?

[Kenny Cole]

I infer nothing other than PSA is in Newport Beach or Santa Ana or whatever and chose its home forum as a matter of convenience, as most companies do. Your argument is assuming its conclusion, namely if Orange County wasn't conservative PSA wouldn't have chosen it.

LOL. OK. That is a real easy conclusion to draw, particularly if you take the time to actually look. But whatever. We, at least, both agree that this debacle is awful. Ultimately, I would suggest that is what's important.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL. OK. That is a real easy conclusion to draw, particularly if you take the time to actually look. But whatever. We, at least, both agree that this debacle is awful. Ultimately, I would suggest that is what's important.

No question there. We can only hope justice is done this time. I just don't see the forum selection clause, at the end of the day, as a particular obstacle is all I am saying.

[Kenny Cole]

No question there. We can only hope justice is done this time. I just don't see the forum selection clause, at the end of the day, as a particular obstacle is all I am saying.

And I do. Time will tell.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If he would have sued he could have gotten paid back last week. What a sucker.

right no lawsuits needed, everything is working out great.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sadly, most collectors who've been taken to the cleaners and victimized don't even know it (and likely never will).

It is a relatively small percentage of collectors who frequent these boards, and unless the word gets out to a mass audience, the "Bad Actor Facilitators" (meaning PSA and PWCC) are largely off the hook.

Perhaps word will spread a bit further in Chicago, the first week of August.

I think if PSA /pwcc sent an email to all prior submitters buyers and told them about this issue and to submit that would get them off the hook when a buyer later 'learns' of the issue years later, perhaps when a wronged buyer submits to an auction house 4 years from now (and first learns of the issue) the statute of limitations being argued as a defense if the required times passes i would think would indeed get them off the hook

The defense may work either way but its more solid PSA/PWCC and the like just notified everyone to look at their tainted cards potentially.

Yes more claims will be submitted as well so there is risk/reward. But it appears even if the card market tanks, everyone will be paid fairly years from now and everyone will agree what their damages are from a sale the past 2 or 3 years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Any more refunds, or refusals, to report?

[jhs5120]

Honest question, doesn't this whole fiasco elevate PSA further above other third-party graders?

It's pretty clear that BGS/BVG, SGC and PSA are all having difficult times detecting altered cards. If I'm not mistaken, only PSA will make you whole for their mistakes.

Has any refund been issued by SGC or Beckett?

[perezfan]

Honest question, doesn't this whole fiasco elevate PSA further above other third-party graders?

It's pretty clear that BGS/BVG, SGC and PSA are all having difficult times detecting altered cards. If I'm not mistaken, only PSA will make you whole for their mistakes.

Has any refund been issued by SGC or Beckett?

Have we actually seen evidence of PSA paying out anything yet? Their “official statement” directed people to get refunds from the seller (not from PSA).

PWCC has, on several occasions now, issued refunds on altered PSA cards. But I have yet to see where PSA has actually paid out a penny. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Furthermore, most of the exposed cards are residing in PSA holders. So I fail to see the purported “elevation” of PSA over and above anyone else. They’re all flawed in different ways. But they’re all equal in terms of happily accepting money for a service that most of us could perform far better for free.

[Republicaninmass]

Didnt their quarterly report say that they paid out claims from the Insurance?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Didnt their quarterly report say that they paid out claims from the Insurance?

They have a reserve, no insurance.

[Republicaninmass]

They have a reserve, no insurance.Sorry, the reserve pool went down, so they paid out something.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Didnt their quarterly report say that they paid out claims from the Insurance?

Maybe... Can someone here verify that?

Would love to see what appears in their next quarterly report, as awareness of the scandal hadn’t yet impacted that particular time-Frame. All we’ve seen to date is denial and deflection to the “bad actors” and the sellers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to this post on CU yesterday, PWCC blocked a guy after voiding at his request the purchase of an outed Moser card. But told him he could still consign. :)


https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12382315/#Comment_12382315

I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.

The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...

_Hi Nathanael,

Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._

Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.

-Nathanael

[ullmandds]

According to this post on CU yesterday, PWCC blocked a guy after voiding at his request the purchase of an outed Moser card. But told him he could still consign. :)


https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12382315/#Comment_12382315

I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.

WOW! What a POS Brent is?

The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...

_Hi Nathanael,

Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._

Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.

-Nathanael

WOW...what a POS Brent/PWCC is!!!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'd send him a thank you note for blocking me, but that's me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So I haven't seen anyone post that they got an email from PWCC (or anyone else) informing them that they purchased altered cards and to please return them for a prompt and cheerful refund.

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

[steve_a]

I’ve been watching this all unfold and thought I had been unaffected. I didn’t see any of my certs. Today I received an unsolicited refund offer from PWCC for a $600 card I purchased in 2014.

So I haven't seen anyone post that they got an email from PWCC (or anyone else) informing them that they purchased altered cards and to please return them for a prompt and cheerful refund.

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

[swarmee]

Wow; glad to see they still have some cash in the vault to refund you.

[Flintboy]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

[ruth-gehrig]

Ask Jeffrey he should know

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

You missed Steve Sloan's statement, advising people with altered cards to contact their seller and only to contact PSA if the seller was "unknown."

[Paul S]

Wow; glad to see they still have some cash in the vault to refund you.
Never too late to make amends when there's a guillotine hanging over one's head.

[swarmee]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?

[GeoPoto]

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

I got one in September, returned the card as requested, got a check shortly after that. The card was post-war (1950). The check cleared.

[Johnny630]

PSA should have to buy all The Wrongfully Graded Altered Cards Back.

In my opinion they’re the root cause/major facilitator of all this.

[japhi]

I’ve been watching this all unfold and thought I had been unaffected. I didn’t see any of my certs. Today I received an unsolicited refund offer from PWCC for a $600 card I purchased in 2014.

Which card and are you returning it?

[Flintboy]

None of this makes any sense at all.

PSA has the guarantee of an unaltered card, encapsulates said card, it then gets exposed as tainted and they say go back to where you bought it?

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

[Johnny630]

None of this makes any sense at all.

PSA has the guarantee of an unaltered card, encapsulates said card, it then gets exposed as tainted and they say go back to where you bought it?

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

100% Correct I’ve been asking this question since day one! Falls on death ears I believe because people are making millions off PSA brand selling their product ECT. It’s the old don’t bite the hand that feed you silence that continues to facilitate the grandiose Debacle of Greed.

One would think if PSA was able to prove the submitter in bad faith submitted bad cards that were altered in an attempt to be graded with a number grade that they would have to go after that submit to civilly recover the money They had to pay back to the owner of the altered card. I’ve heard of this being done before by PSA. PSA has a guarantee make them prove that these alleged bad actors doctored/attempted to defraud them.

If PSA gets off Scott free without any responsibility this S will only continue the bad guys will just get more sophisticated in hiding their identities, who consigns to who purchases what handles are used etc.
I thought people on here wanted to HAVE Good Grading Company that didn’t grade bad cards, isn’t that the purpose of them?

In my view you’re going to see a major battle between PSA an alleged major problem submitters.

[swarmee]

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?
Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.
So why wouldn't PSA push the financial burden onto a different company who is also at fault for the fraud. PWCC is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation right now. They're walking on eggshells. If they're willing to take the returns, PSA gets off with a whole lot less complaints and fiscal hit to their shareholders. Joe Orlando even said this scandal WASN'T MATERIAL TO THEIR BUSINESS!

If PWCC refuses to refund, then they likely face stiffer penalties from the FBI investigation. PSA at that point would be liable for the guarantee.

[Leon]

Nicely stated.

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.
So why wouldn't PSA push the financial burden onto a different company who is also at fault for the fraud. PWCC is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation right now. They're walking on eggshells. If they're willing to take the returns, PSA gets off with a whole lot less complaints and fiscal hit to their shareholders. Joe Orlando even said this scandal WASN'T MATERIAL TO THEIR BUSINESS!

If PWCC refuses to refund, then they likely face stiffer penalties from the FBI investigation. PSA at that point would be liable for the guarantee.

[Fuddjcal]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

You don't get that Brent Mastro was in on the trimming card scam from the beginning? :D., maybe they'll sue PSA for the $$$ and continue to deny deny deny, right calvindog?

[Fuddjcal]

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?
Isn't it obvious??? THEY are in on the scam, that's the only logical conclusion PERIOD

[perezfan]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

Not if they submitted the cards which I am sure in many cases they did.

[swarmee]

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

PWCC would not sue PSA in the first place for cards it submitted, or for cards consigned to it by known doctors.

[Promethius88]

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

While I don't own any of the outed cards or even purchased from PWCC that I can remember, I took a card to PSA at the National that was clearly not the correct grade for the holder. They contacted me a couple weeks later via phone call and agreed and offered compensation. Not sure if you were looking for examples of PWCC scandal cards or just cards that were covered by the guarantee in general.

[JollyElm]

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

[Johnny630]

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

LMAO

Rotatrim

[swarmee]

Didn't the guy here with the altered T3 get a reimbursement directly from PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Didn't the guy here with the altered T3 get a reimbursement directly from PSA?

yes but he bought it from Dan McKee, not PWCC.

[1952boyntoncollector]

PWCC would not sue PSA in the first place for cards it submitted, or for cards consigned to it by known doctors.

so any cards they did not submit or get consigned to it by a known doctor you agree they could go after PSA for if they made payment on to a wronged buyer

also why bring up suing, they can submit a claim. Doesnt have to be a lawsuits..why so quick to bring up lawsuit. Some people pay based on a letter

[Peter_Spaeth]

so any cards they did not submit or get consigned to it by a known doctor you agree they could go after PSA for if they made payment on to a wronged buyer

also why bring up suing, they can submit a claim. Doesnt have to be a lawsuits..why so quick to bring up lawsuit. Some people pay based on a letter

Because I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned a possible countersuit. Carry on, Mr. Chao.

[drcy]

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.

It is a good point that if the submitter signs a contract stating he did not altered the card (or perhaps know the card is altered?), they broke/lied on the the grading contact and are liable. This, of course, doesn't dismiss that PSA wsa unable to identify the alterations.

I think PSA should pay the price for their inabilities to do their job, but forgers and liars should also pay a price.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Because I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned a possible countersuit. Carry on, Mr. Chao.

you actually responded to my post specfically as was well saying PWCC cant collect from PSA if PWCC was the one that submitted the cards, so thus, that would imply pwcc could collect on the ones that were not submitted, Mr. Chao.

so PWCC can refund and then collect from PSA....so buck can still end with PSA .. (net54 members has asked why would pwcc refund when it should be psa, so this gives one explanation on some of the cards at least)

[Peter_Spaeth]

you actually responded to my post specfically as was well saying PWCC cant collect from PSA if PWCC was the one that submitted the cards, so thus, that would imply pwcc could collect on the ones that were not submitted, Mr. Chao.

so PWCC can refund and then collect from PSA....so buck can still end with PSA .. (net54 members has asked why would pwcc refund when it should be psa, so this gives one explanation on some of the cards at least)

I never said otherwise. Just not on cards they submitted or were consigned by known doctors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I never said otherwise. Just not on cards they submitted or were consigned by known doctors.

I wonder what percentage that would be...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder what percentage that would be...

I would guess most of the doctored cards they handled, they knew about. Not all of course.

[Flintboy]

Peters point above is what I was referencing in my original post about this subject. Please do not take that I am in favor of any company or person that alters cards- I am not. Regardless of who is submitting these cards, as the industry leader they need to detect the alterations. Relying on the submitter to sign the submission form stating they haven’t altered the cards is simply an easy way out for them to pass the buck. The reason I submit cards and my money to them is to make sure they haven’t been altered. I’m an honest guy but I hope PSA doesn’t take only my word when I submit that the cards in the grading order aren’t altered. Looking over at BODA, it seems that they rely on that disclaimer and trust of the submitter to often.

[Johnny630]

Peters point above is what I was referencing in my original post about this subject. Please do not take that I am in favor of any company or person that alters cards- I am not. Regardless of who is submitting these cards, as the industry leader they need to detect the alterations. Relying on the submitter to sign the submission form stating they haven’t altered the cards is simply an easy way out for them to pass the buck. The reason I submit cards and my money to them is to make sure they haven’t been altered. I’m an honest guy but I hope PSA doesn’t take only my word when I submit that the cards in the grading order aren’t altered. Looking over at BODA, it seems that they rely on that disclaimer and trust of the submitter to often.

Agree PSA has to be challenged on breach of conduct acting in bad faith by alleged card doctor whom submitted. Prove that alleged submitter altered the card and has submitted in bad faith. Idk what the hell is their purpose if they can’t back up their end. I’m not on anyone’s side however IMO Allowing PSA to Continue to PUNT any Responsibility/liability will have serious long term detriment to the hobby/industry.

It’s all a bunch of garbage finger pointing/cover up’s

Card Doctor, Shady Auction Houses, and PSA’s Inabilities/lack of responsibilities are gonna tank the card industry. Greed :-(....sad

[Leon]

A bad actor or three won't tank this industry/hobby.

Agree PSA has to be challenged on breach of conduct acting in bad faith by alleged card doctor whom submitted. Prove that alleged submitter altered the card and has submitted in bad faith. Idk what the hell is their purpose if they can’t back up their end. I’m not on anyone’s side however IMO Allowing PSA to Continue to PUNT any Responsibility/liability will have serious long term detriment to the hobby/industry.

It’s all a bunch of garbage finger pointing/cover up’s

Card Doctor, Shady Auction Houses, and PSA’s Inabilities/lack of responsibilities are gonna tank the card industry. Greed :-(....sad

[swarmee]

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

Stuff. Need I say the rest?

[bnorth]

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

You need to add a few 0s to that to be even close to the number of bad people in the hobby. Your number is way closer to the honest people.:)

[1952boyntoncollector]

You need to add a few 0s to that to be even close to the number of bad people in the hobby. Your number is way closer to the honest people.:)


After bnorth and myself that leaves 48 remaining honest people in the hobby

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's like the ancient Greek Diogenes, searching for an honest man.

[Leon]

Stuff. Need I say the rest?

Stuff but more importantly the answer is always money. So many collectors and dealers are in up to their ears with PSA, and it's their livelihood for many of them, they can't quit their sacred cow....even if it is producing sour milk. Who cares if it is a fraudulent card, it is in a holder. LOL.....Remember, we are just troublemakers. Kudos again to the guys over on Blowout for all of the fraud exposed so far. I am sure it will be going on for as long as they want to look. It is sad.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i really havent seen anyone posting about getting a refund or resolving a dispute on this thread for awhile

[1952boyntoncollector]

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

apparently none.

[Stonepony]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

[1952boyntoncollector]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later a received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

great to hear and to see people are free to share info without restriction..

[Johnny630]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

Well done on their behalf.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

[Johnny630]

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

They’re no saints...this is the right thing to do....it’s damage control mitigation

My only hope is some great lawyering throws this back onto PSA and or the other TPG’s

Excited for your auction tonight, I’ll be bidding/watching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

Whatever the motivation, and I am completely cynical about that, it's better than the nothing that most industry players apparently are doing.

[irv]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

Whatever the motivation, and I am completely cynical about that, it's better than the nothing that most industry players apparently are doing.

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

..

[irv]

..

Hopefully!

[Johnny630]

Burn Baby Burn !

[Leon]

They are still worth money just not in the holders they are in. And at a fraction of the price.

[CuriousGeorge]

Brent is going to have a special FBI auction touting the new great investments. 2018 was $60K, now $7K!

[perezfan]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

[Peter_Spaeth]

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

[perezfan]

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

Yes, very nice letter...

It gives you that great warm fuzzy feeling, just in time for the holidays. Reading it was a true "Hallmark Moment" for me. :rolleyes:

[ullmandds]

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

Psa may be too big to fail...apparently PWCC is not!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

My idea was to put a hole punch in them like they do with playing cards that used be used in Las Vegas

[Leon]

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

Unbelievably un-woke. Everyone just stick your head in the sand . Nothing to see here. Move on sheeple.

Worst email since Joe O sent his. Appallingly disingenuous .

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't post it too many times.

[glynparson]

My idea was to put a hole punch in them like they do with playing cards that used be used in Las Vegas

And you don’t think the next wave of a hole card doctors will just fix the holes?

[irv]

They are still worth money just not in the holders they are in. And at a fraction of the price.

Whether they are re-holdered as an "A" or labeled as trimmed/doctored, whatever, I guarantee they will be back on the market in new holders or sold as raw over and over again if the TPG's happen to be smarter the second time around.

[perezfan]

Whether they are re-holdered as an "A" or labeled as trimmed/doctored, whatever, I guarantee they will be back on the market in new holders or sold as raw over and over again if the TPG's happen to be smarter the second time around.

That’s why a hole punch is a better solution than re-holdering these cards as “A”. It’s infinitely more difficult to restore and conceal a hole punch than it is to crack open a slab (which is exactly what would happen in “wave two”)

[1952boyntoncollector]

That’s why a hole punch is a better solution than re-holdering these cards as “A”. It’s infinitely more difficult to restore and conceal a hole punch than it is to crack open a slab (which is exactly what would happen in “wave two”)

Plus can put the hole punch all the way to the edge and at same location on most cards so first thing graders can do is check that location....

now the 'fix' can be almost anywhere as it stands.........

[Johnny630]

At this point so many things are bad all the way around, all the outed altered cards, most of the sales since 2014 and up....I can’t explain them? which ones were fake? Which ones were real? All of this Market Manipulation Distorts what the real true value of the card is in said grade whether that grade is real or a bad card. Maybe we will come back to reality pre 2014 prices on graded cards who knows I have no idea, people don’t seem to be stopping their buying habits but then again are these real sales or vaulted relisted cards idk ??
They can put holes in these altered cards or destroy them when the government is done with it’s evidence . Nothing matters anymore it’s all smoke and mirrors.

[999Tony]

Since this thread involves PWCC --just thought I'd post --if you have poor condition butterfinger commons, please do NOT sell through PWCC! There is a lot of 12 right now I'm not bidding on. I bought the only two poor condition lots on ebay in the last couple months (based on searching for recent sales a few weeks ago), so I've gotta be one of the biggest buyers of really crappy butterfinger commons! Only saw this PWCC lot cause I often search ebay for Butterfinger lots. I am never bidding on anything on PWCC site ever again so I can't bid on this lot darn it.

Unfortunately, PWCC losing my business will have zero effect on their bottom line as I am not even a small fish, not even a minnow . . .I have bid on quite a few ungraded vintage lots the last couple years, but I only ever won one or two small lots.

[bnorth]

In another thread there is a post about the over/under on PSA lasting 8 years.

Now that more people know about PWCC how about the over/under on PWCC lasting 2 years?

Personally with their lawyer who IMHO goated them into hiring him I will take the over.

We could all do a group submission of our higher end cards to PSA and then consign them to PWCC, a win win for everyone.:D

[Johnny630]

In another thread there is a post about the over/under on PSA lasting 8 years.

Now that more people know about PWCC how about the over/under on PWCC lasting 2 years?

Personally with their lawyer who IMHO goated them into hiring him I will take the over.

We could all do a group submission of our higher end cards to PSA and then consign them to PWCC, a win win for everyone.:D

Over I’m thinking we see them, PWCC, going civilly to Court Against PSA for millions in damages.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

mmmm I don't see that happening as then PWCC is open to all sorts of extra scrutiny. Claiming damages against a company you set out to deceive is not a winning proposition in my book. If anything the lawsuit would make more sense the other way around, but again PSA would never do that due to the level of scrutiny it would open them up to.

[Exhibitman]

Since this thread involves PWCC --just thought I'd post --if you have poor condition butterfinger commons, please do NOT sell through PWCC! There is a lot of 12 right now I'm not bidding on. I bought the only two poor condition lots on ebay in the last couple months (based on searching for recent sales a few weeks ago), so I've gotta be one of the biggest buyers of really crappy butterfinger commons! Only saw this PWCC lot cause I often search ebay for Butterfinger lots. I am never bidding on anything on PWCC site ever again so I can't bid on this lot darn it.

Unfortunately, PWCC losing my business will have zero effect on their bottom line as I am not even a small fish, not even a minnow . . .I have bid on quite a few ungraded vintage lots the last couple years, but I only ever won one or two small lots.

You and I are plankton to PWCC

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/0/04/Plankton.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091121200740

[Peter_Spaeth]

Over I’m thinking we see them, PWCC, going civilly to Court Against PSA for millions in damages.

You jest my friend. PWCC as the damaged party? LOLOLOL. Oh that's rich, the man who knowingly did years and tons of business with Gary and Lord knows how many superstar card doctors, as plaintiff? Not to mention all the cards he appears to have uh um conserved himself.

No, Brent's playing defense. If he survives without doing time and with his company intact -- and I do think that is likely to be honest -- he's going home, he's not going on offense.

[Johnny630]

You jest my friend. PWCC as the damaged party? LOLOLOL. Oh that's rich, the man who knowingly did years and tons of business with Gary and Lord knows how many superstar card doctors, as plaintiff? Not to mention all the cards he appears to have uh um conserved himself.

No, Brent's playing defense. If he survives without doing time and with his company intact -- and I do think that is likely to be honest -- he's going home, he's not going on offense.

I know it sounds bizarre. When you say you have seen it all you haven’t seen it all. I wouldn’t doubt it one bit.
Who is paying for all the bought back cards by his company ? I don’t see him just eating that bill.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know it sounds bizarre. When you say you have seen it all you haven’t seen it all. I wouldn’t doubt it one bit.
Who is paying for all the bought back cards by his company ? I don’t see him just eating that bill.

Well one good thing would come of it, it would stop Jake from posting about no lawsuits.

[Johnny630]

Well one good thing would come of it, it would stop Jake from posting about no lawsuits.

Yes sir ! There is a plus to my wild thinking !!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well one good thing would come of it, it would stop Jake from posting about no lawsuits.

thats true.....but it will also stop everyone from saying there will be all these lawsuits and all these theories about all the things that are going to happen......cause right now its zero

[Peter_Spaeth]

thats true.....but it will also stop everyone from saying there will be all these lawsuits and all these theories about all the things that are going to happen......cause right now its zero

Perhaps you should contact Brian and tell him his investigation is a "zero."

[Leon]

Perhaps you should contact Brian and tell him his investigation is a "zero."

Nothing against Jake but that comment doesn't even rise to Stupid. It is at the Ignorance level. I can absolutely promise things are being done. I have no firsthand knowledge since the National but there will be consequences for quite a few people. And I think restitution is a big thing as well as some other form of punishment to dissuade the criminals in the future. I would never bet against the FBI. They rock. It won't be fast but it will be thorough.

[Yankees1964]

Nothing against Jake but that comment doesn't even rise to Stupid. It is at the Ignorance level. I can absolutely promise things are being done. I have no firsthand knowledge since the National but there will be consequences for quite a few people. And I think restitution is a big thing as well as some other form of punishment to dissuade the criminals in the future. I would never bet against the FBI. They rock. It won't be fast but it will be thorough.

I agree with Leon 100%. I am on the board of a local non profit that had $350k embezzled by an outside local bookkeeping company. It was for taxes they did not submit. Took the FBI 3 years to build the case. We were frustrated by how long it took and the Agent in Charge told us the move slow and with purpose to cover everything. When they finally hit this guy his head almost exploded and that was only $350k. I can only imagine what this will be like when it comes down.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Nothing against Jake but that comment doesn't even rise to Stupid. It is at the Ignorance level. I can absolutely promise things are being done. I have no firsthand knowledge since the National but there will be consequences for quite a few people. And I think restitution is a big thing as well as some other form of punishment to dissuade the criminals in the future. I would never bet against the FBI. They rock. It won't be fast but it will be thorough.

right, i didnt mean zero isnt being done, i meant we havent heard anything happen in terms of lawsuits arrests etc. All behind the scenes. Nothing on the outsid as this year is closing out. I never have denied there hasnt been law enforcement involvement so obviously didnt mean zero for everything. Its not like i havent been saying there hasnt been any civil lawsuits etc.....others are talking about all of these lawsuits and claims for damages that will happen but thus far zero....... ....thats where the zero comment comes from .

[ullmandds]

right, i didnt mean zero isnt being done, i meant we havent heard anything happen in terms of lawsuits arrests etc. All behind the scenes. Nothing on the outside. I never have denied there hasnt been law enforcement involvement so obviously didnt mean zero for everything. Its not like i havent been saying there hasnt been any civil lawsuits etc.....others are talking about all of these lawsuits and claims for damages that will happen but thus far zero......thats where the zero comment comes from .

can we please pull the plug on this broken record????

[1952boyntoncollector]

can we please pull the plug on this broken record????

Theres a lot of broken records on this thread..

[bnorth]

Theres a lot of broken records on this thread..

That is a fact and I would way rather listen to Jake than many of the others.:D

[jchcollins]

If you don't play nice with your "reimbursement", Orlando & Huigens will send thugs out to break your legs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Theres a lot of broken records on this thread..

Has it broken the record for broken records though?

[bnorth]

If you don't play nice with your "reimbursement", Orlando & Huigens will send thugs out to break your legs.

I am glad I have maybe bought one or two cards from PWCC several years ago and own less than five low value PSA slabs. I am sensitive and delicate in real life and don't know any sketchy people.:o

[iwantitiwinit]

I was going to say something but nevermind.