PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[swarmee]

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020696/psa-s-response-to-recent-hobby-message-boards

PSA is aware of recent hobby message board activity and is conducting its own investigation into the matter.

We take consumer protection seriously, as evidenced by the thousands of altered and counterfeit cards that we reject each year, our on-going investments in grading and holder technology, and long track record of working with law enforcement to eliminate fraud from the hobby.

PSA processes more than two million cards each year and will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand. We will act against anyone who violates PSA’s Terms & Conditions by knowingly submitting altered cards for authentication and grading. While our actions will be conducted privately, please know that the impact will be felt by those attempting to mislead collectors for personal profit.

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request. If the seller is unknown, you may send the card to PSA for review under our Financial Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity.

PSA is well-versed in combating fraud and we have addressed these issues in a professional and direct way for nearly thirty years. After all these years, our hobby is stronger than ever. Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.

Steve Sloan
PSA President

[ullmandds]

sounds like psa/brent have the same lawyer?

[JeremyW]

That's the best they can do?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's reassuring. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Fuddjcal]

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020696/psa-s-response-to-recent-hobby-message-boards

Well Mr Sloan, you know who your first test case is...It's Brent Mastro, Your boy Blue!!!!!...Be very careful or you'll get a nickname too.

"Well versed at combating fraud"... Har har Hardeeee har har my side is splittin. Your well versed in saying nothing. Ban Brent Mastro and sue him you chicken S***. That will be a start. But you're in bed together you'll give him a character reference probably to assist Brent Mastro the Grifter with his next scam. I'm sure PSA had nothing to do with it my a**.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well-versed in combating fraud. Clearly.

[JeremyW]

We will act against anyone who violates PSA’s Terms & Conditions by knowingly submitting altered cards for authentication and grading.

Is he referring to PWWC?

[Peter_Spaeth]

So much for the good things I had heard about Mr. Sloan. Robo speak like his predecessor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We will act against anyone who violates PSA’s Terms & Conditions by knowingly submitting altered cards for authentication and grading.

Is he referring to PWWC?

Gary I assume, who they apparently have allowed to submit for decades lol.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Hypothetical. So, if I pick up a Goudey Ruth which has been trimmed or recolored, and I submit it to receive an Authentic, am I violating TOS by knowingly submitting al altered card for authentication? And what are the repercussions? I’m not trying to cheat anyone. I know the card is altered. I want them to slab it and say that it’s real and altered so people will know what they are getting. Problem?

[Peter_Spaeth]

sounds like psa/brent have the same lawyer?

More likely the same PR firm specializing in feel good BS robo speak that ignores the elephants in the room.

[JeremyW]

Gary I assume, who they apparently have allowed to submit for decades lol.

Aren't they one in the same?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Aren't they one in the same?

Not clear to me if Brent was submitting for him. It's irrelevant, but I can't make that assumption at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does anyone in this hobby have any integrity? I mean among the major players. Or are they all corrupted by money?

[griffon512]

"As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request. If the seller is unknown, you may send the card to PSA for review under our Financial Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity."


Seems like they are trying to pass the buck to the seller, as if the seller in all instances should provide the financial guarantee if the seller is known. So if the seller does not initiate the process for financial reimbursement, what happens then?

This doesn't seem consistent with what they say on their website: https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

"PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:

Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,

Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value."

[JeremyW]

Not clear to me if Brent was submitting for him. It's irrelevant, but I can't make that assumption at this point.

I thought there was proof that Moser & PWWC submissions to PSA were on the same numbers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As if I am going to go to someone I bought a card from 10 years ago and ask to return it. WTF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought there was proof that Moser & PWWC submissions to PSA were on the same numbers.

I don't believe so, I don't think anyone can tell who submitted the cards.

[swarmee]

"As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request. If the seller is unknown, you may send the card to PSA for review under our Financial Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity."

It's funny; I think I gave him that idea when I recommended in email that he have all PWCC customers send them back to PWCC for refunds.

My reasoning was that if the purchase never happened, and PWCC was in on the fraud, PSA would have minimal or zero liability.

[frankbmd]

I don't believe so, I don't think anyone can tell who submitted the cards.

Can’t PSA tell who submitted the cards. I would think they should be able to, but don’t hold your breath. What’s good for the Registry is good for the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can’t PSA tell who submitted the cards. I would think they should be able to, but don’t hold your breath. What’s good for the Registry is good for the hobby.

Of course they know. They are as usual putting the burden back on the collector. WIWAG redux.

[vintagetoppsguy]

That's the best they can do?

Didn't read all the comments posted, but I was wondering the same thing. .

[Davidlisa]

I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and we all deserve second chances in life but I'm sorry that response is a little weak. How about taking responsibility for your part and telling us what you're going to do to fix things.

[vintagetoppsguy]

While our actions will be conducted privately, please know that the impact will be felt by those attempting to mislead collectors for personal profit.

This is where they lose trust. Things have been kept in private for way too long.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is where they lose trust. Things have been kept in private for way too long.

Jesus the day I agree 100 percent with David, something must be wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

.

[jhs5120]

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request.

PSA’s financial guarantee doesn’t protect the original submitter. If PWCC really is submitting most of these cards, it may put them in a pickle (and reduce the potential warranty exposure).

First smart thing I’ve seen anyone do in this whole debacle.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Jesus the day I agree 100 percent with David, something must be wrong.

Well, it is lightning here in Houston. I better stay indoors. :D

[MULLINS5]

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request.

PSA’s financial guarantee doesn’t protect the original submitter. If PWCC really is submitting most of these cards, it may put them in a pickle (and reduce the potential warranty exposure).

First smart thing I’ve seen anyone do in this whole debacle.

Exactly. PWCC is the seller and PSA is pissed at them. PSA also scrubbed their site of PWCC. Clearly PWCC played a big part in this. Time will tell, hopefully.

Edit to add PSA removed SMR article on PWCC, didn't scrub them entirely.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, it is lightning here in Houston. I better stay indoors. :D

It's surreal. A massive scandal showing potentially thousands of altered PSA cards is revealed, and the response is to reassure us PSA is well-versed at detecting fraud, I mean WTF is going on here? Who do they think they're talking to?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Exactly. PWCC is the seller and PSA is pissed at them. PSA also scrubbed their site of PWCC. Clearly PWCC played a big part in this. Time will tell, hopefully.

Without a list of cards coming from them it's useless drivel. They never provided one in WIWAG.

[Scott L.]

It's funny; I think I gave him that idea when I recommended in email that he have all PWCC customers send them back to PWCC for refunds.

My reasoning was that if the purchase never happened, and PWCC was in on the fraud, PSA would have minimal or zero liability.

I think you hit the nail on the head John in terms of them pointing back to the seller for refunds. They probably feel they could make a good case that PWCC was in on it somehow.

[JeremyW]

The way I see it is that PSA in on the hook for almost one million dollars worth of liability with their guaranty.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Without a list of cards coming from them it's useless drivel. They never provided one in WIWAG.

Didn't you hear? The list is coming in the "near future"!

[MULLINS5]

I think you hit the nail on the head John in terms of them pointing back to the seller for refunds. They probably feel they could make a good case that PWCC was in on it somehow.

The right thing would be for PSA to get those cards in their possession, but it would cost a small fortune.

[swarmee]

I think you hit the nail on the head John in terms of them pointing back to the seller for refunds. They probably feel they could make a good case that PWCC was in on it somehow.

Brent is on video promising to reimburse buyers for fraudulent cards submitted through PWCC. Watch the 1 hour long video. He doesn't say which cards those are, so all of them should go back to PWCC. Maybe his lawyer will come out with a list of affected cards submitted by PWCC so that he won't get every single one back to his company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent is on video promising to reimburse buyers for fraudulent cards submitted through PWCC. Watch the 1 hour long video. He doesn't say which cards those are, so all of them should go back to PWCC. Maybe his lawyer will come out with a list of affected cards submitted by PWCC so that he won't get every single one back to his company.

He admitted submitting cards for Gary?

[JeremyW]

Brent is on video promising to reimburse buyers for fraudulent cards submitted through PWCC. Watch the 1 hour long video. He doesn't say which cards those are, so all of them should go back to PWCC. Maybe his lawyer will come out with a list of affected cards submitted by PWCC so that he won't get every single one back to his company.

I watched the hour long video & thought it was all B.S. He tried to stick up for PSA about not being able to see alterations. I think it's called CYA.

[swarmee]

He says he submitted cards for consignors, nonspecifically.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The smart thing to do by PSA is to put the blame on one rogue grader...even if he's not guilty. Offer him a nice severance package or something. When all this is over, PSA has to admit one of two things: (1) they had a grader on the take and they took care of the situation or (2) they're totally incompetent. Which is better from a business perspective?

[swarmee]

The smart thing to do by PSA is to put the blame on one rogue grader...even if he's not guilty.
Might work for the public. Won't work for the Feds.

[Fballguy]

Sounds like he's pointing the finger away from PSA...talking only about the "actors" who submit. What about the "actors" who graded them? How does that get explained?

[calvindog]

Sounds like he's pointing the finger away from PSA...talking only about the "actors" who submit. What about the "actors" who graded them? How does that get explained?

Under oath. They’re getting sued.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Might work for the public. Won't work for the Feds.

True

[doug.goodman]

From Sloan's note : "PSA processes more than two million cards each year"

40,000 per week (based on a 50 week year)
8,000 per day (based on a 5 day week)
666 per hour (based on a 12 hour day, and my love of Satan)
11 per minute

That means 5.4 seconds multiplied by the number of graders there are, per card.

Doug "just saying" Goodman

[JeremyW]

He says he submitted cards for consignors, nonspecifically.

That might be his downfall.

[JeremyW]

Under oath. They’re getting sued.

Really? Love to see it.

[rdwyer]

Back in the day, I was privileged to enter the "Vault" at GAI. I was there to educate the authenticator of cigarette packs per Steve Rochi's request. I was shown the process of grading cards. The first thing they always did was measure the card. Doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was trimmed because the card would be graded authentic. They then looked for altering. Same thing, doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was altered because the card would be graded authentic.. Then they look at the centering, corners. etc. And further evaluated the card for printer defects, creases, etc.

So how is it that PSA could skip the first part of the process for all those trimmed cards unless it was deliberate? I know that GAI was doing the same, and that their opinion on cards today are worthless. But still they had a procedure.

[ejharrington]

I think you hit the nail on the head John in terms of them pointing back to the seller for refunds. They probably feel they could make a good case that PWCC was in on it somehow.
Is PWCC considered the seller or the auctioneer?

[perezfan]

Sounds like he's pointing the finger away from PSA...talking only about the "actors" who submit. What about the "actors" who graded them? How does that get explained?

This is the first thing that hit me as well...

Everyone who's been wondering whether it is

A. Incompetence

or

B. Favorable Grading to preferred customers

Got nothing answered. Zero explanation for the hundreds of glaring mistakes they've recently made (likely thousands before this is put to bed). Why would we continue to put our faith in this company, with a pathetic canned "pass the buck" response like that? Written by some faceless attorney who doesn't give a crap about what's right, or the state of the hobby. Screw them.

[swarmee]

Is PWCC considered the seller or the auctioneer?

That's for them to pass the buck down to the consignor. Except I bet those PayPal accounts are bone dry.

[Goudey77]

I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.

[dwinters]

I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324

[swarmee]

Maybe they'll rent PWCC's booths at the National to set up a refund line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?

[Exhibitman]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Jeong%20jack.gif

Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.

[joshuanip]

I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324


LOL, I find it funny that the largest holder is a quant fund. That's what you get for straying from fundamental investing.

[joshuanip]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Jeong%20jack.gif

Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.

That is just the best post I ever saw on this board. LOL (and crying)...

[griffon512]

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.

[rdwyer]

Both PWCC and PSA are going to be at the Long Beach Coin Expo Thursday-Saturday. I'm sure that I'll give thanks to PWCC.

[swarmee]

PSA's live Facebook video day is tomorrow: early with Vintage Breaks, followed soon after by Rico Petrocelli's show. We'll see if they show up to those before claiming they'll be at a small show right now.

[CuriousGeorge]

Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.

[JeremyW]

I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.

I'm guessing that you're way off on that one.

[oldjudge]

Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

[Fballguy]

Back in the day, I was privileged to enter the "Vault" at GAI. I was there to educate the authenticator of cigarette packs per Steve Rochi's request. I was shown the process of grading cards. The first thing they always did was measure the card. Doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was trimmed because the card would be graded authentic. They then looked for altering. Same thing, doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was altered because the card would be graded authentic.. Then they look at the centering, corners. etc. And further evaluated the card for printer defects, creases, etc.

So how is it that PSA could skip the first part of the process for all those trimmed cards unless it was deliberate? I know that GAI was doing the same, and that their opinion on cards today are worthless. But still they had a procedure.

According to their website, they're not skipping it. It says so right here.

<a href="http://imgbox.com/vx40Bt6U" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/55/65/vx40Bt6U_o.png" alt="image host"/></a>

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.

Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. How could they not, they are at the center of the hobby and the names of these guys are widely known. And it's more than a "few."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

Of course not. But at this point I believe that overall they are better at this than PSA. The stuff identified on BO is in my opinion the tip of a very large iceberg of doctored cards in PSA holders. But we'll never know for sure if this is their response. WIWAG redux. Same response to a far more serious problem. The burden is on us.

[Kenny Cole]

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

[JeremyW]

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

[swarmee]

Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. And it's more than a "few."
Seems like a good time to name names. Call it the Colon Blow hobby cleanse. People are reading this thread and no longer want to sit on the sidelines.

[swarmee]

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?
Since there's almost no profit incentive in sending cards to SGC (compared to PSA and BGS), SGC will be largely unscathed from this scandal.

They were the smartest people by shuttering the auto authentication arm, either by chance or by intention.

[perezfan]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Jeong%20jack.gif

Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.

Chow just never gets old :D

[oldjudge]

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

[Republicaninmass]

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.


Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

[JeremyW]

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

[scotgreb]

IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.

Edited to add that I emailed this request to Messrs. Orlando and Sloan

[Tennis13]

I watched the hour long video & thought it was all B.S. He tried to stick up for PSA about not being able to see alterations. I think it's called CYA.

I don’t know about CYA. From what I saw on The Wire and Breaking Bad, when you may be charged with a cime or a lawsuit, you should definitely NOT talk for 60 minutes on the record.

[JeremyW]

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.

They might need to buy new bandwidth to publish such a list. It would be, IMO, stunningly long. But I agree, the current posture is wholly inadequate.

[swarmee]

IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.
This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.


John Rafferty
Thu, May 30, 11:39 AM (5 days ago)
to Betsy, Steve

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884
Well, the shit just hit the fan. I'd like PSA to remove all these cert numbers from their pop report; you can wait until next week when the Set Registry deadline is over.
It's also a great idea to remove all the cert numbers from the cracked cards from the registry as well. Feel free to give me a call if you need additional advice.
Thanks!

[oldjudge]

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.

I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.

[JeremyW]

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

The latter. More accuracy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The latter. More accuracy.

I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2

[swarmee]

I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.

He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.

Gods do not answer letters I guess.

[Fuddjcal]

Jesus the day I agree 100 percent with David, something must be wrong.

agreed. I guess we're not all that different after all?:D That we have a very low threshold for complete scammers in the hobby we all love(d). I've loved it on and off my entire life and this PWCC scam is neither fun nor funny, IMHO. Thanks Brent Mastro!, Thanks PSA!

I do try to stand up for I feel is right and fight authority whenever I can. PWCC has been on my s*** list but now you can add PSA to the list of companies I'm hating on right now after that very weak response. Just pathetic. My fake crap is going into the attic immediately right next to my fake autographed photos and fake baseballs. I'm done. What I have I have and not 1 more PERIOD!

I am done talking about it which will make many of you very joyous:( (especially Leon)

The last thing I do for the hobby and my fellow collectors will be to get the
F Face cards made for the National.

[irv]

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

Just my personal opinion, but like I have said numerous times, I think SGC does a far better job at grading than PSA does?

I'd also go out on a limb and say, with regards to the T206 sig scandal, that it was likely one guy who authenticated the majority of those, and I would assume he is no longer employed?

[hcv123]

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

Nothing to help people forget about a scandal like a BIGGER scandal!!



is well-versed in combating fraud

Perhaps it was a typo - combating-committing:eek:?

[swarmee]

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Those guys should read more threads and see how involved PSA is in this scandal.

The other thing I'm not thrilled with is that this is posted on only one of their message boards, and you have to click and scroll around on the site to even find it. Despite how weak it is, it needs to be plastered on the FRONT PAGE of their website in that center slot, so that everyone who visits the site can read it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

[JeremyW]

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

But would they have caved into the corruption of passing obviously corrupted cards along to their registry people?

[scooter729]

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

The latter. More accuracy.

I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2

Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

[oldjudge]

Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.

[T206Collector]

The scariest thing about the PSA statement is how much effort they put into trying to convince us that the virus is contained and will be eradicated — without any explanation as to what the cure is — by suggesting that it’s an “isolated act” and not an absolute plague on the hobby. Even Exxon had better statements after the Valdez oil spill.

Congratulations for rejecting “thousands of altered and counterfeit cards . . . each year.” If you reject thousands of altered cards and you encapsulate thousands of altered cards you’re doing about as well as a coin flip.

What exactly is “[y]our on-going investments in grading and holder technology”?
The “lighthouse logo” now acts more like a traditional lighthouse, alerting oncoming collectors to rocky shores beneath the glow. Never mind that if you lock a trimmed card in Fort Knox, all you’ve managed to do is protect a trimmed card. The seatbelt is somewhat less helpful after the crash.

“[I]solated acts from a few dishonest actors”? The bubonic plague requires humans to be isolated so that the disease doesn’t spread. These acts were the opposite — the were intentionally socialized, designed to spread altered cards into all of our collections. You can isolate as many actors as you want today, but the damage already done has extremely far-reaching, and invasive effects. These cards are in all of our collections, and they stain the good ones with an unwashable air of doubt and uncertainty.

“Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.” You’ll forgive me if I’m not feeling all that reassured by this statement. How are you going to clean up the spill?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

Who says it wasn't?

[oldjudge]

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

And during the period of the last four recessions they were each wrong twice.

[irv]

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

I am unsure how much money he is making, that is his business, but I know he wouldn't continue to do it if it wasn't at least a bit lucrative.

[Goudey77]

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

[vintagetoppsguy]

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

Ah, gotcha. Never heard that before.

[vintagetoppsguy]

https://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55/akuracy503/4DDD5941-D834-4468-A3F0-B5F5BDF5765A_zpszve8ydan.png

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

They're not the ones who trimmed it? What kind of excuse is that? They could use that excuse for all wrong doing. "We weren't the ones who re-colored it." "We weren't the ones who rebuilt the corners" "We weren't the ones that chemically cleaned it." How lame! Then what does their guarantee cover?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure the guarantee does not require the owner to exhaust other remedies first. It's an odd statement by Sloan in that regard.

[benjulmag]

It wouldn't surprise me if PSA is just warming up with defenses they will use to try to avoid having to make good on the guarantee. Mounting publicity about the scandal along with new revelations about altered cards seem to be daily occurrences. Guarantee claims likely will continue to mount. Figuring out how to deal with them may turn into an existential issue for PSA.

[Mark17]

Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers. :)

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

[Bigdaddy]

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

[Mark17]

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

[Kenny Cole]

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

Wait, what? There are principles involved? Who? Where? What are they?

[Mark17]

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

My position is equally principled. You see my point and I see yours, and we will have to agree to disagree.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside, Gary changed his ebay ID and was instantly outed.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14734911&postcount=553

[oldjudge]

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Exactly. I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.


It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

[perezfan]

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.

This should be our response letter back to Sloan...

Dear PSA:

Isn't your entire business model predicated upon identifying and rejecting material from "dishonest actors"?

Isn't the sole reason you exist to protect collectors from these "few dishonest actors"?

Without the "dishonest actors", you wouldn't even have a business to run.

So why don't you stop playing "the victim", and admit to your long list of failures. Address the damned issue head-on!

[Brian Van Horn]

Peter,

Thank you for the subtle and understated images. I was thinking about the T206 Wagner when I saw your images and it all just drove home the point.

[dwinters]

Shouldn’t this type of statement be released by the ceo through an official pr?

[swarmee]

They're not the ones who trimmed it? What kind of excuse is that? They could use that excuse for all wrong doing. "We weren't the ones who re-colored it." "We weren't the ones who rebuilt the corners" "We weren't the ones that chemically cleaned it." How lame! Then what does their guarantee cover?
If this guy was burned in the WIWAG scandal, which I had to look up because I've only been back into cards/grading for five years, it makes some sense.

WIWAG was accused of busting the holders, swapping out cards with lower grade ones, and resealing. So PSA according to the terms of their current Grade Guarantee would not be liable because the holders have been cracked. Not sure if that was the same-worded guarantee from 15 years ago or not, or if they added that the holders had to be undamaged.

Should PSA really be on the hook for the Mexico guy and the craigslist guys who are cracking/resealing cases? Shouldn't the customer inspect the case to make sure it hasn't been tampered with? I understand it.

[swarmee]

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Thread is still up, but got locked after a few posts. Explanation from the moderator:
AFLfan Posts: 236 mod June 4, 2019 7:40PM
I am going to lock this thread down now, not because the OP did not care for Steve Sloan's statement today, but because of the tone.

I run a youth lacrosse league and on occasion have to intervene when parents are unhappy with coaches for one reason or another. This typically happens immediately after a game. My advice to the parent is always to go home, think about the situation for 24 hours, and then come back and let's discuss things. Take some time to consider different perspectives and the fact that the coach may be making decisions based upon information that the parent does not have, though at the moment the parent feels that they understand the situation fully.

Same situation here. I'm not telling anyone that they are wrong, or need to stifle their thoughts, but rather tossing the figurative ball back and saying to try again. Give it another shot, but in a different tone and perhaps after trying to view the situation from multiple points of view.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector

Hmmm. Comparing rightfully angry collectors who are being fed a line of manure to rowdy parents at a kid's sports match... not how I would have done it.

[swarmee]

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-tell-if-a-sports-card-has-been-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:
Our Guarantee
Beckett Grading Services will provide collectors with the finest, most thorough, consistent and accurate grading efforts available in the industry. Disputed grades on cards are limited to typographical errors on the label (i.e., the wrong set name). We guarantee our turn around time. Turn Around Time, this is the time in which the cards are in the possession of Beckett Grading Services (time in transit, weekends and holidays are excluded) and begin the day after your order is received. Failure to meet our deadlines will result in a customer refund.

Beckett shall not be deemed to be in default of or to have breached any provision of this guarantee as a result of any delay, failure in performance or interruption of the Services, resulting directly or indirectly from acts of God, acts of civil or military authority, civil disturbance, war, fire, floods, epidemics, quarantine restrictions, strikes, freight embargoes, transportation contingencies, shortages of facilities, fuel, energy, labor or materials, or laws, regulations, acts or order of any government agency or official thereof, other catastrophes, delays of subcontractors or suppliers arising from unforeseeable causes beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of either the Contractor or the subcontractors or suppliers, or any other circumstances beyond Provider's reasonable control. In the event of any such delay or failure, the parties shall defer performance of the Services to a date and time mutually agreeable.

So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

[barrysloate]

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

[swarmee]

Well, hey, if PSA is doing on-site grading at the Long Beach Expo starting tomorrow, those of you that have altered cards from PWCC/Moser can form a return/refund line.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/ShowDetail/328?utm_source=PSA&utm_medium=spotlight&utm_content=lbe_june_2019

When there's a run on the bank, you want to be first in line, right?

[swarmee]

On the BGS side, a class-action lawsuit may be the only recourse collectors owning slabbed cards has, unless they get their cards returned to the seller within the window.

[benjulmag]

If this guy was burned in the WIWAG scandal, which I had to look up because I've only been back into cards/grading for five years, it makes some sense.

WIWAG was accused of busting the holders, swapping out cards with lower grade ones, and resealing. So PSA according to the terms of their current Grade Guarantee would not be liable because the holders have been cracked. Not sure if that was the same-worded guarantee from 15 years ago or not, or if they added that the holders had to be undamaged.

Should PSA really be on the hook for the Mexico guy and the craigslist guys who are cracking/resealing cases? Shouldn't the customer inspect the case to make sure it hasn't been tampered with? I understand it.

I don't disagree that PSA should not be on the hook for an altered card inserted in a cracked/resealed case. PSA's statement however, as I read it, doesn't refer to that situation when it says to first go back to the seller. I wonder if they are raising the privity argument, or at least trying to keep that defense viable should the matter become the subject of litigation.

As has been discussed in previous threads, their warranty would seem to be of the type to run with the card, and therefore not to require the person invoking it to be the person who originally submitted it for grading. I would not be surprised if PSA does try to raise the privity issue if they perceive guarantee claims to be an existential issue. And probably too we can count on statute of limitation defenses to be thrown in as well.

[RichardSimon]

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.


Bird watching is fascinating.

[Republicaninmass]

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.



This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards. Submitted if oc or mc PSA cards could have an accurate grade when submitting to sgc. Since the new regime took over, they have taken it into account , and therefore wont honor the old grades. Nobody seems up in arms about this, maybe PSA should just sell the co and not honor any old grades.

If sgc is tougher, wouldn't people be more willing to buy them, cross to PSA, then sell them? Why would PWCC and co only buy PSA cards and try to restore them, Instead of sgc cards which were "already graded stricter"

This is not the case, maybe they have graded less altered cards, but certainly not tougher on the whole!

Sorry for the rant, but a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards.

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

[swarmee]

a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

Slow week.

[frankbmd]

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

Slow week.

Slow and weak

[gzman]

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/314261/did-anyone-see-this-1955-aa-orouke

[T206Collector]

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/314261/did-anyone-see-this-1955-aa-orouke

That's exactly the point! Thank you for finding this. The notion that this was an "isolated" issue is insulting. Moser's cards are everywhere by now, and we all have them in our collections. PSA can't put the genie back in the bottle. Time for a better mousetrap.

[T206Collector]

I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Leon]

For the moment it is staying up. This board, nor I, endorse fraud. No one is forcing anyone to post or be here. Last I checked you can leave if you don't like it. This is a very fluid situation and their banner might come down, might not. I will make that decision when the time is right. Today, tomorrow or never.

I am bothered by a lot of things, like you not having your name next to your posts when you know darn well know it should be. Just like Jay Miller (Old Judge) who commented above, his name needs to be out here too. I have had discussions about these same violations with both of you more than once. Thanks


+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Republicaninmass]

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

I agree, and was shocked when I heard a PSA 7mc, would now be an sgc 30!

So why did they change their standards, and wont honor the old grades? Just because someone bought them out, and they dont want the old baggage?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

[chalupacollects]

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/314261/did-anyone-see-this-1955-aa-orouke

Well, probably many thousands by now....

[swarmee]

Love the quote by shouldabeen10:
It would take a small "task force" to actually (legally) prove the things that seem fairly obvious to us.

And if someone can testify that Joe Orlando said it's better let them keep submitting than play whack-a-mole with "bad actors," there is probably some additional liability in that comment.

[70ToppsFanatic]

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

[steve B]

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-tell-if-a-sports-card-has-been-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:


So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

That article is for subscribers only. $2 for 2 weeks! That's more than any newspaper I've seen.
Nope, not doing that.

[steve B]

Here that statement is as I read it

Hey, we got caught. And that's a problem. But it's happened before, and we have a solution!
Send any of the outed cards back to the sellers, so they can crack and resubmit. That way the cards get new holders with a nice new serial number and this whole problem can go away.

Try our new "we're really good at spotting fraud mango" flavor kool aid coming out right now!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

[Fuddjcal]

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

[joshuanip]

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.


I agree that Leon can do what ever he wants on his site, not that I have a say as it is Leon's site.

[Fuddjcal]

Bird watching is fascinating.

LOL, I'm going to start collecting Birds...

[70ToppsFanatic]

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

My understanding is that over the years many people have been dissatisfied with the outcome of their requests for guarantee reviews.

[CuriousGeorge]

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

[70ToppsFanatic]

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I hope so, the efforts on BO to out cards have been noble but at best they can scratch the recent surface. I am a bit skeptical about the prospects of obtaining this relief from the courts but it would be a game-changer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Failure to act in good faith with respect to the guarantee is one legal possibility that comes to mind, assuming the facts are there. I would not be surprised at all if many people come forward in this regard. I can think of others as well but don't want to shoot from the hip just yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Jack Nicholson line, You can't handle the truth, comes to mind in reflecting whether people REALLY want to know.

[CuriousGeorge]

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

PSA is getting paid to grade cards and is failing miserably to catch these issues. They have a guarantee that needs to be upheld. eBay is just the facilitator of the transactions and I suspect that if anyone accused would have their auctions shut down there would be a lot less for sale there. In time I imagine they will deal with PWCC depending on where this goes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I continue to be puzzed by Sloan's (probably from JO really) statement that only if the seller is unknown should someone send in cards for review.

One, it seems inconsistent with the plain terms of the guarantee.
Two, how often is the seller "unknown"?

[Fuddjcal]

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Brent Mastro says "He is working with PSA" when PSA should be suing the S*** out of him and d-listing the schmuck. AND e-bay sells 1000's of dollars in forgeries and fakes everyday 365 days a year. Do you think they care? Think again.:p NEW FLASH: They don't and they will protect their little Brenty just like PSA is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, by changing his ID, Gary appears to be showing his intent to keep right on keeping on.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

[Fuddjcal]

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

[Leon]

By your posts everyone and their brother can tell what kind of person you are. You do a great job in that respect. With respect to Mastro, I dare you to ever find one instance when I said he was innocent (without saying until proven guilty or something to that effect). That is a fallacy carried forward by El Chapo's lawyer. BTW, I also wrote a letter to the judge on the matter and it was not flattering to Mastro.

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

[Brian Van Horn]

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

Hmmm. I really am trying to picture that. :D

[CuriousGeorge]

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it’s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

Professional Sports AUTHENTICATOR. Indeed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it’s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

As I see it, if PSA was confident this was a limited problem, they should have no objection to releasing their submission records.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

[Fuddjcal]

By your posts everyone and their brother can tell what kind of person you are. You do a great job in that respect. With respect to Mastro, I dare you to ever find one instance when I said he was innocent (without saying until proven guilty or something to that effect). That is a fallacy carried forward by El Chapo's lawyer. BTW, I also wrote a letter to the judge on the matter and it was not flattering to Mastro.

LOL, maybe a bit too passionate but otherwise just hate scammers in all areas of my life. The list is growing but not limited to cards. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I must have somewhat misremembered. All the best!:)

[Fuddjcal]

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

I think you can tell from my posts how I feel about it after spending 75K the past year. :) I don't care what happens to the value as 3/4 of them are PSA. The truth will always trump everything for me personally. I won't buy another card until BM (no, not Bowl Movement), Brent Mastro goes to jail and PSA sues him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL, maybe a bit too passionate but otherwise just hate scammers in all areas of my life. The list is growing but not limited to cards. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I must have somewhat misremembered. All the best!:)

From your diplomatic posts I never would have guessed how you felt.:eek:

[PowderedH2O]

Busiest person at PSA right now? The guy going in and lowering all of the SMR values so if they have to pay out it won't cost much.

"Oh, PSA 7 1960 Yaz rookie? I think the SMR reflects that to be $15. We honor our guarantee. Just send it in and we will send you the $15."

[Golfcollector]

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

[Goudey77]

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it’s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

If anyone truly believes PSA will guarantee all these cards you are being grossly misled. I have several contacts with first hand experience both good and bad. Some with the exact same scenarios being played out here and the results are not "guaranteed". I am afraid many will be told to go pound sand. Good thing PSA sits near Newport Beach.

[CuriousGeorge]

As I see it, if PSA was confident this was a limited problem, they should have no objection to releasing their submission records.

But we know they are going to resist and hope this all goes away quietly with them only refunding a few squeaky wheels. This time I believe it is going to be different though. Assuming what we are hearing from BO is true, there has been a blatant disregard by PSA in many of the procedures we rely upon when paying money to them to authenticate cards. And they need to be held accountable and honor their guarantee whether it was negligence on their part, getting duped by some fraudsters or whatever. Their guarantee is pretty clear to me as well as the lawyers I have spoken to. In no way does it say go back to whomever you purchased it from for recourse. And it doesn’t say if someone is intentionally deceiving them then they won’t honor it. I suspect regardless of where this heads, the guarantee will soon be reworded.

[CuriousGeorge]

If anyone truly believes PSA will guarantee all these cards you are being grossly misled. I have several contacts with first hand experience both good and bad. Some with the exact same scenarios being played out here and the results are not "guaranteed". I am afraid many will be told to go pound sand. Good thing PSA sits near Newport Beach.

And Martin that’s why we have high priced lawyers in this country.

[perezfan]

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But we know they are going to resist and hope this all goes away quietly with them only refunding a few squeaky wheels. This time I believe it is going to be different though. Assuming what we are hearing from BO is true, there has been a blatant disregard by PSA in many of the procedures we rely upon when paying money to them to authenticate cards. And they need to be held accountable and honor their guarantee whether it was negligence on their part, getting duped by some fraudsters or whatever. Their guarantee is pretty clear to me as well as the lawyers I have spoken to. In no way does it say go back to whomever you purchased it from for recourse. And it doesn’t say if someone is intentionally deceiving them then they won’t honor it. I suspect regardless of where this heads, the guarantee will soon be reworded.

If someone deceived THEM, they would have a claim over under the submission agreement, like an insurer would against the party at fault, but in no way does it affect the guarantee as I read it.

[brad31]

I wonder if PSA has asked to contact the seller because PWCC has already agreed to refund purchases in exchange for not being banned from future submissions and not falling out of PSA’s good graces (i.e PSA promoting their record sales price on card X).

[70ToppsFanatic]

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

And that is EXACTLY why PSA is taking the position they are taking. To minimize the value hit on what is in circulation now so that the damage to collectors and to their brand is minimized.

Once all of the outed cards are taken care of the rest is conjecture as far as the majority of the hobby is concerned. Anything that remains in a PSA slab is assumed to be good until proven otherwise. By keeping the submission records private PSA minimizes the chance that someone with a non-outed slab that may be tainted actually submits it for a guarantee review. It’s worked for them this way before. And as I said earlier, as long as they are being legitimate when they do a guarantee review and not just rubber stamping it as good to avoid honoring the guarantee they will be in the clear legally.

Realistically there are always going to be some slabbed cards that are illegitimate from all TPGs. You will never be able to root them all out. Without the submission, sales records and photos I doubt many of the non-outed ones will ever be discovered. Providing that information to the public is not in their interests. One could also argue that it would also be contrary to the interests of those with a substantial amount of money already tied up in slabbed cards. Bottom line is don’t hold your breath waiting to get that info officially.

The real questions are

A) what can be done to minimize the ability of additional “re-works” from getting into slabs going forward?

B) will those who are caught trying to cheat be sufficiently punished so that others are deterred from trying to do the same?

[perezfan]

And that is EXACTLY why PSA is taking the position they are taking. To minimize the value hit on what is in circulation now so that the damage to collectors and to their brand is minimized.

Once all of the outed cards are taken care of the rest is conjecture as far as the majority of the hobby is concerned. Anything that remains in a PSA slab is assumed to be good until proven otherwise. By keeping the submission records private PSA minimizes the chance that someone with a non-outed slab that may be tainted actually submits it for a guarantee review. It’s worked for them this way before. And as I said earlier, as long as they are being legitimate when they do a guarantee review and not just rubber stamping it as good to avoid honoring the guarantee they will be in the clear legally.

Realistically there are always going to be some slabbed cards that are illegitimate from all TPGs. You will never be able to root them all out. Without the submission, sales records and photos I doubt many of the non-outed ones will ever be discovered. Providing that information to the public is not in their interests. One could also argue that it would also be contrary to the interests of those with a substantial amount of money already tied up in slabbed cards. Bottom line is don’t hold your breath waiting to get that info officially.

The real questions are

A) what can be done to minimize the ability of additional “re-works” from getting into slabs going forward?

B) will those who are caught trying to cheat be sufficiently punished so that others are deterred from trying to do the same?

Are you employed by PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

And Martin that’s why we have high priced lawyers in this country.

And here and there even a few good ones.

[70ToppsFanatic]

I wonder if PSA has asked to contact the seller because PWCC has already agreed to refund purchases in exchange for not being banned from future submissions and not falling out of PSA’s good graces (i.e PSA promoting their record sales price on card X).

More like in hopes that PSA will not seek to go after them criminally.

PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

Stay tuned, there will be press coverage soon as I understand it.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Are you employed by PSA?

No. My statements are personal opinions and observations based on consulting experiences I’ve had in the area of corporate crisis management. I was also one of the people who discovered and did a lot of the message board sleuthing on the hommade cellos issue a few years ago and lived through how PSA handled that one.

[SMPEP]

I see the court room now ...


Card Collector: PSA - Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


Judge: You don't have to answer that question!


PSA: I'll answer the question. You want answers?


Card Collector: I think I'm entitled to them.


PSA: You want answers?!


Card Collector: I want the truth!


PSA: You can't handle the truth!


Son, we live in a world that has baseball cards, and those cards have to be graded by men with plastic cases. Who's gonna do it? You, SGC? You, BGS? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for card collectors, and you curse PSA. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that card investor's financial loses, while substantial, probably were lessened; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves money.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me grading that baseball card -- you need me grading that baseball card.

We use words like "alteration," "conservation," and "authenticity." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent grading baseball cards. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading services that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a loupe and grade your own cards. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!


Card Collector: Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


PSA: I did the job--


Card Collector: -- Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


PSA: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

More like in hopes that PSA will not seek to go after them criminally.

PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet.

PSA should honor their guarantee and then go after Brent, Moser or whomever to make them whole. Why then are they attempting to put the onus on the card owner to go back to whom they purchased it from for refunds? Shouldn’t they be handling that themselves?

[perezfan]

PSA should honor their guarantee and then go after Brent, Moser or whomever to make them whole. Why then are they attempting to put the onus on the card owner to go back to whom they purchased it from for refunds? Shouldn’t they be handling that themselves?

Of course they should! Otherwise, why even claim they provide a guarantee?

In the other ongoing thread, we saw how it turned out when an affected buyer politely asked PWCC for a refund. He was put off and rebuffed. Everyone is now passing the buck, and it's the collector who is screwed.

Do not keep supporting PWCC and PSA and feeding them money. They do not act in the hobby's best interest (just their own). If you really feel a 3rd Party opinion is necessary, use someone else!

[CuriousGeorge]

PSA is part of a public company and has a board and shareholders to report to and protect. I suspect the best interests of the hobby would come somewhat further down their list.

[vintagetoppsguy]

PSA should honor their guarantee and then go after Brent, Moser or whomever to make them whole. Why then are they attempting to put the onus on the card owner to go back to whom they purchased it from for refunds? Shouldn’t they be handling that themselves?

This.

[70ToppsFanatic]

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.


Selectively quoting me does not make your mob mentality valid.

“3/1000ths of a percent SO FAR!”

“I too believe there is more to be uncovered...”

This is still America people. Remember innocent until proven guilty?


From what has been discovered it appears that PWCC was somehow involved in some unethical and possibly illegal things with some know scams artists. It also appears that they managed to slip some things through PSA and other TPGs.

And here you are, part of a mob that is spouting off all sorts of wild ideas about PSA being complicit in this, PSA is going to weasel out of its guarantee, and other generally unflattering conspiracy theories without any real evidence to substantiate it.

PSA is doing what just about any other publicly traded corporation does when an apparent primary product/service failure has occurred; trying to weed out what of that which has come out is indeed true and what is not, trying to identify what risks exist for the company as a result of it, trying to identify other parties that could potentially be held accountable, trying to minimize the damages to the company, trying to reassure customers, etc.

It may ultimately be proven that there are 100,000 tainted items, but right now there isn’t any evidence to back that up. There is evidence that has been developed that suggests about 1,000 so far. Are 1000 too many? Yes, but it’s far from the epidemic level that the mob is currently panicking about.

For someone who claims to be so concerned about integrity you certainly don’t seem to be very worried about the integrity and fairness of passing judgment on people like myself, and PSA for that matter, without proper basis in fact.

[steve B]

I really do think this statement is horrible.

If you believe someone altered a card, PSA thinks the best thing to do is return the card that they couldn't the alterations on to the same person.

Those will of course just be cracked and resubmitted for a clean number in a new slab, and in time the whole thing will be forgotten.
Or the same people who can't get it right in the first place will re-evaluate???

[Marchillo]

Here comes the competition!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190605/1ecf8944f02b4e4fcd715dad7f723447.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190605/a46c7bda4af6d1b20e44dfbddf357b43.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Selectively quoting me does not make your mob mentality valid.

“3/1000ths of a percent SO FAR!”

“I too believe there is more to be uncovered...”

This is still America people. Remember innocent until proven guilty?


From what has been discovered it appears that PWCC was somehow involved in some unethical and possibly illegal things with some know scams artists. It also appears that they managed to slip some things through PSA and other TPGs.

And here you are, part of a mob that is spouting off all sorts of wild ideas about PSA being complicit in this, PSA is going to weasel out of its guarantee, and other generally unflattering conspiracy theories without any real evidence to substantiate it.

PSA is doing what just about any other publicly traded corporation does when an apparent primary product/service failure has occurred; trying to weed out what of that which has come out is indeed true and what is not, trying to identify what risks exist for the company as a result of it, trying to identify other parties that could potentially be held accountable, trying to minimize the damages to the company, trying to reassure customers, etc.

It may ultimately be proven that there are 100,000 tainted items, but right now there isn’t any evidence to back that up. There is evidence that has been developed that suggests about 1,000 so far. Are 1000 too many? Yes, but it’s far from the epidemic level that the mob is currently panicking about.

For someone who claims to be so concerned about integrity you certainly don’t seem to be very worried about the integrity and fairness of passing judgment on people like myself, and PSA for that matter, without proper basis in fact.

IMO telling people to return the card to the seller, and only to go to PSA if the seller is unknown whatever that means, is not appropriate. The guarantee does not require exhaustion of remedies. The whole point was that PSA stands behind marketplace transactions, to inspire confidence.

[perezfan]

Selectively quoting me does not make your mob mentality valid.

“3/1000ths of a percent SO FAR!”

“I too believe there is more to be uncovered...”

This is still America people. Remember innocent until proven guilty?


From what has been discovered it appears that PWCC was somehow involved in some unethical and possibly illegal things with some know scams artists. It also appears that they managed to slip some things through PSA and other TPGs.

And here you are, part of a mob that is spouting off all sorts of wild ideas about PSA being complicit in this, PSA is going to weasel out of its guarantee, and other generally unflattering conspiracy theories without any real evidence to substantiate it.

PSA is doing what just about any other publicly traded corporation does when an apparent primary product/service failure has occurred; trying to weed out what of that which has come out is indeed true and what is not, trying to identify what risks exist for the company as a result of it, trying to identify other parties that could potentially be held accountable, trying to minimize the damages to the company, trying to reassure customers, etc.

It may ultimately be proven that there are 100,000 tainted items, but right now there isn’t any evidence to back that up. There is evidence that has been developed that suggests about 1,000 so far. Are 1000 too many? Yes, but it’s far from the epidemic level that the mob is currently panicking about.

For someone who claims to be so concerned about integrity you certainly don’t seem to be very worried about the integrity and fairness of passing judgment on people like myself, and PSA for that matter, without proper basis in fact.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and although I don't agree, I do respect it. People collect for different reasons... some for profit, and others for the love of the hobby. I suppose I'm one of the voices for the latter.

Not part of a mob... just someone who does not want to see the collectors get burned. PSA/Sloan's Letter directly states that the affected collectors should go to the SELLER (not PSA) for refunds. PWCC has already demonstrated that they intend to make this process very cumbersome and difficult. And thus, it is the collector who is screwed.

So while we are apparently miles apart on this, we can still have a good conversation. I don't want to see Collectors take the hit for this, and do want PSA to live up to its long-stated guarantee. Otherwise, it's all just meaningless lip service.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

Which is why legal pressure must be brought to bear. I think all the dots could be connected fairly easily if records are subpoenaed from all sources.

[70ToppsFanatic]

But in this case they already have a prior statement from PWCC saying that they will handle it for any cards they brokered. What we don’t know is what, if anything, PSA may have said to PWCC that PSA would do unless PWCC made this offer. We also don’t know that ifbthis offer for PWCC is a result of some conversation. Between PWCC and PSA, whether as part of it PWCC is required to turn over any cards they redeem to PSA to prevent cracking and resubbing them or selling them raw to unsuspecting people.

PSA is part of a publicly traded company. They have shareholders to protect. Why shouldn’t they take advantage of what PWCC is offering to do so? They also said that the guarantee review was an option as well. I don’t see them rejecting to do reviews. I see them trying to minimize the number of reviews they need to do.

I have plenty of gripes about PSA, but I really don’t see their early attempts to minimize their liability as anything other than normal corporate behavior.

[Promethius88]

IMO telling people to return the card to the seller, and only to go to PSA if the seller is unknown whatever that means, is not appropriate. The guarantee does not require exhaustion of remedies. The whole point was that PSA stands behind marketplace transactions, to inspire confidence.

If you have a recall on a vehicle or basically any other product, don't you typically take it back to the place where you bought it? I mean, I don't see cars lined up at the actual plant looking to get fixed. Might be a stretch, but kind of how I see it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

You don't necessarily have to be "going after" PSA for some bureau or other to request (demand) records to aid in an investigation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you have a recall on a vehicle or basically any other product, don't you typically take it back to the place where you bought it? I mean, I don't see cars lined up at the actual plant looking to get fixed. Might be a stretch, but kind of how I see it.

That's because the dealer is designated by the warranty to take the return. The dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. The PSA guarantee does not say anything about gong to the seller first or designate the seller as an agent.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

;)

[vintagetoppsguy]

Are you employed by PSA?

lol, you beat me to it. I was going to ask the same thing.

[Fuddjcal]

From your diplomatic posts I never would have guessed how you felt.:eek:

I always try and straddle the issue...:D:D

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you have a recall on a vehicle or basically any other product, don't you typically take it back to the place where you bought it? I mean, I don't see cars lined up at the actual plant looking to get fixed. Might be a stretch, but kind of how I see it.

No. Not always. I own a Nissan Titan. I bought it used from Ford franchise dealership. When my Titan did have a recall, I didn't take it back to the Ford dealership, I took it to the Nissan dealership. The warranty it through Nissan, not Ford.

[Promethius88]

That's because the dealer is designated by the warranty to take the return. The dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. The PSA guarantee does not say anything about gong to the seller first or designate the seller as an agent.

Yeah, I get that...kind of an apples to oranges thing. While I do agree the liability falls back on PSA, I would attempt to get my money back from the person that sold it to me. This isn't with just in regards to this situation, just my general opinion. "You sold me a piece of crap, you take the time to deal with it.... return my money now". I don't care what the item was, whoever sold it to me should take their time and money to have to return the item.
As noted before, I think this will possibly their stance.
1. Return the item to the person that sold it to you for a refund.
2. That person(PWCC) can try to return in to PSA under the guarantee.
3. They get denied for violating the terms and conditions by submitting knowingly altered items.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, I get that...kind of an apples to oranges thing. While I do agree the liability falls back on PSA, I would attempt to get my money back from the person that sold it to me. This isn't with just in regards to this situation, just my general opinion. "You sold me a piece of crap, you take the time to deal with it.... return my money now". I don't care what the item was, whoever sold it to me should take their time and money to have to return the item.
As noted before, I think this will possibly their stance.
1. Return the item to the person that sold it to you for a refund.
2. That person(PWCC) can try to return in to PSA under the guarantee.
3. They get denied for violating the terms and conditions by submitting knowingly altered items.

What if you now discover a card on the list you bought 5 years ago? Not fair to go back to the seller IMO. Sellers who are innocent are entitled to repose at some point, I would think much sooner than that. It's PSA's eff-up if something is wrong, not the seller, IMO, unless the seller was complicit.

[CuriousGeorge]

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

[CuriousGeorge]

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

You would think it is but I know I would pay a nice sum to have someone take a professional and unbiased look at my overpriced cardboard without necessarily being forced to cross them over.

[tribefan]

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

Upcharges ONLY apply if the card "crosses" to the designated minimum grade or higher (we will always call for approval for any upcharge necessary).


sounds like $10 gets you a review, and if it meets your minimum grade or higher for crossover, you pay a little more? The regular grading fee?

[Peter_Spaeth]

You would think it is but I know I would pay a nice sum to have someone take a professional and unbiased look at my overpriced cardboard without necessarily being forced to cross them over.

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and although I don't agree, I do respect it. People collect for different reasons... some for profit, and others for the love of the hobby. I suppose I'm one of the voices for the latter.

Not part of a mob... just someone who does not want to see the collectors get burned. PSA/Sloan's Letter directly states that the affected collectors should go to the SELLER (not PSA) for refunds. PWCC has already demonstrated that they intend to make this process very cumbersome and difficult. And thus, it is the collector who is screwed.

So while we are apparently miles apart on this, we can still have a good conversation. I don't want to see Collectors take the hit for this, and do want PSA to live up to its long-stated guarantee. Otherwise, it's all just meaningless lip service.


I don’t think we are miles apart at all. We both want integrity. Neither of us want to see innocent collectors take a hit on this. But innocent collectors could take a hit in a number of ways. Beyond the affected cards themselves, the whole hobby could take a major hit if psa’s credibility were undeservedly and excessively undermined. Driving PSA into financial instability or insolvency could also cause a hit to innocent collectors.

I read Steve Sloan’s statement and I see a corporate executive trying to leverage what resources he has to protect the company during the early stage of a potential problem. This thing has a long way to go and could play out in many unexpected ways. Unless they have fools as attorneys I can’t believe that PSA would do anything with respect to their guarantee that contradicts what is written in their guarantee.

PWCC has admitted some responsibility for the current situation and has made a public statement saying they will do all that they can to make things right. It is not unreasonable for PSA to try and use that to their advantage, especially if PWCC is actually mixed up directly in it.

I see nothing in the PSA statement that says they won’t do a guarantee review if one is requested. And I think there are plenty of times in all of our lives that we’ve purchased something that had an issue and our first call was tonthe party we purchased it from, not immediately to the party that provides the warrantee.

Within the above contexts Sloan’s statement does not strike me as so far out of the norm.

[CuriousGeorge]

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

I think after we see what has gone on here they use the word “properly” very loosely.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many years later is it legitimate to go back to an innocent seller?

What is an "unknown" seller and why did Sloan limit the guarantee to that?

I think you are being too kind here. Way too kind. Sloan should be manning up not looking to say we're your court of last resort.

THEY graded the cards not the sellers.

[sportscardtheory]

I find both PSA's and PWCC's responses to this situation pathetic and ill-advised. If they want to regain trust in their brands, they should ONLY be responsive, helpful and proactive. They are being deflective and standoffish. Bad business.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I find both PSA's and PWCC's responses to this situation pathetic and ill-advised. If they want to regain trust in their brands, they should ONLY be responsive, helpful and proactive. They are being deflective and standoffish. Bad business.

No argument here. I don't see anyone defending PWCC at this point, and I truly do not understand the defense of PSA's statement pushing burden back on to the collector, minimizing the issue, and disowning the full scope of the guarantee. I get it of course from a corporate standpoint. Not an ethical one.

[sportscardtheory]

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Who cares. It's happening now. The past does not define the present.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Holy sheet is that really you? How are you my friend?

[ullmandds]

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

You cant properly examine a card in a slab.

[sportscardtheory]

No argument here. I don't see anyone defending PWCC at this point, and I truly do not understand the defense of PSA's statement pushing burden back on to the collector, minimizing the issue, and disowning the full scope of the guarantee. I get it of course from a corporate standpoint. Not an ethical one.

Honestly, I don't even get it from a corporate standpoint. From a business standpoint, it makes zero sense to continue to damage your reputation with those who supply your profits. A smart business decision would be to immediately bite the bullet to regain consumer confidence. They aren't thinking long term, and that is bad business and shows me those in charge over there aren't very bright. If I had stock in PSA, it would be gone before it gets much worse. PWCC is signing their own death warrant. Even if getting through this costs them a couple million, it would benefit them greatly to be proactive and helpful. But they are clearly digging in, and that is bad news for anyone with stock or with investments in their graded cards.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Holy sheet is that really you? How are you my friend?

No major complaints here Peter. Just enjoying life outside of baseball cards. :D

I'm glad to see you're still here fighting for truth, justice and the American way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No major complaints here Peter. Just enjoying life outside of baseball cards. :D

I'm glad to see you're still here fighting for truth, justice and the American way.

89 degrees uphill I am afraid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Honestly, I don't even get it from a corporate standpoint. From a business standpoint, it makes zero sense to continue to damage your reputation with those who supply your profits. A smart business decision would be to immediately bite the bullet to regain consumer confidence. They aren't thinking long term, and that is bad business and shows me those in charge over there aren't very bright. If I had stock in PSA, it would be gone before it gets much worse. PWCC is signing their own death warrant. Even if getting through this costs them a couple million, it would benefit them greatly to be proactive and helpful. But they are clearly digging in, and that is bad news for anyone with stock or with investments in their graded cards.

I think their experience tells them all scandals blow over so preserve the bottom line.

[sportscardtheory]

I think their experience tells them all scandals blow over so preserve the bottom line.

Well then I hope it backfires on them.

[scottglevy]

Does anyone in this hobby have any integrity? I mean among the major players. Or are they all corrupted by money?

I vote for REA. I’ve never had a moment when I doubted they would do the right thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You cant properly examine a card in a slab.

Of course not but so what. :eek: A partial second opinion is better than none here.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Who cares. It's happening now. The past does not define the present.

It should have been dealt with twelve years ago when I approached PSA Customer Service about the problem and other times since and consequently more than likely tens of thousands of altered cards have been sold to unsuspecting collectors and the cards will exist longer than the collectors and just be repeatedly sold and bought with no knowledge of the alterations.

[sportscardtheory]

At this point, I would feel better with a TPG that ONLY slabs unaltered cards and does not do numerical grades. So their only focus is spotting fakes and alterations while using the best possible slabbing techniques and tech to keep cards safe. PSA and BGS are done, IMO. I love the BGS slabs, but they slab sheet cuts and can't spot alterations. I hate PSA slabs and they can't spot alterations. SGC slabs are ugly and flimsy. So now what?

[sportscardtheory]

It should have been dealt with twelve years ago when I approached PSA Customer Service about the problem and other times since and consequently more than likely tens of thousands of altered cards have been sold to unsuspecting collectors and the cards will exist longer than the collectors and just be repeatedly sold and bought with no knowledge of the alterations.

Okay, but it wasn't. Should it be ignored now because it wasn't taken care of earlier.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At this point, I would feel better with a TPG that ONLY slabs unaltered cards and does not do numerical grades. So their only focus is spotting fakes and alterations while using the best possible slabbing techniques and tech to keep cards safe. PSA and BGS are done, IMO. I love the BGS slabs, but they slab sheet cuts and can't spot alterations. I hate PSA slabs and they can't spot alterations. SGC slabs are ugly and flimsy. So now what?

You may have to bust wax, John.

[Stampsfan]

I've not posted much at all on this, but have certainly been active in reading as much as I can. Maybe that's because I have a job, and a second small business on the side (not card related).

What bothers me about going back to the seller is what happens if that seller bought the card from another seller earlier. Now is that seller supposed to go back to the last seller? And then so on? Not all sellers are the original graders.

Back to the car comparison, if you buy a used (and relatively new) car from someone, and that car has a recall, do you go back to the guy you bought it from? Of course not.

The whole premise of PSA's business model is to remove the doubt around the product they viewed.

For me right now, my buying habits have in fact simply stopped. Have been that way for about three weeks now. This makes me sick, and I'm not sure how much I want to continue at the moment. While I'm a small fish, this hurts all dealers, and I will guess am not alone at eliminating my purchases.

Further, this fall I have planned and booked a trip to New York, primarily around finally bringing a large amount of my collection into the PSA offices in NJ, or at the New York Comic Con. My wife and I are spending ten days in the city, but the destination for this vacation was predicated around getting some of my higher end stuff graded. While it may not be much to some collectors here, it is a lot for me. Included in the batch is a complete set of V145-1 hockey with a nice Morenz, Clancy, and Joliat RC's and a host of HOF'ers, some 52 Topps including Matthews and Mays, and dozens and dozens of other cards in the $100-$1000 range. It would cost me, I don't know, a couple of thousand to grade them, if not more? In any case, it is now off the radar. Not giving these guys four figures of cash for an "opinion" that cannot be backed up. I will, however, have an extra day or so in New York, and some extra cash.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It should have been dealt with twelve years ago when I approached PSA Customer Service about the problem and other times since and consequently more than likely tens of thousands of altered cards have been sold to unsuspecting collectors and the cards will exist longer than the collectors and just be repeatedly sold and bought with no knowledge of the alterations.

Dan whatever became of our buddy Scottie Scissors?

[egbeachley]

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it’s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it’s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

I think he's playing the spin game of limiting it to ones with actual conclusive before and after photos. Whatever.

[perezfan]

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

Excellent point... that "side view" is really obscured by the slab.

[70ToppsFanatic]

I think he's playing the spin game of limiting it to ones with actual conclusive before and after photos. Whatever.

According to the link that was posted earlier in this thread there are about 350ish “verified” items that people bought for an aggregate of around $750k.

If you eyeball the list of alleged flip number ranges of suspected cards that is posted on BO the last time I checked it looked like there were on the order of 1000 items. I did say “so far”.

It’s early into this. Nobody knows how deep this rabbit hole goes. I also said I expect that the number would grow.

What you call spin I call letting it play out and in facts before rushing to judgment. Anyone who owns a significant number of PSA authenticated items has a vested interest in what ultimately comes out of this. I see no one questioning the person who posted that there were over 100,000 items about how he came up with that number.


I don’t understand the predominant need to try to hang PSA and significantly increase the damage to innocent collectors based on what we have learned so far.

[swarmee]

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it’s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.
Well, that was the sum of like 6 submissions. But there have been another 1000 just from Moser in the recent few years. The fact that Joe Orlando was quoted as knowing Moser was submitting bad cards 15 years ago and they did not ban his account is very telling.

You need to send a check or credit card in order to pay for the items, and who would vouch for Moser time and time again to cover his items or pay for his services? (Well Brent, but who else?)

They need to release all of his submitted cards, decertify them so that the website tells them to return them for a review under the grade guarantee, and then actually do their job a second time. If they have to crack the card to see the edges, no problem. They have the slabbing machines. No reason they shouldn't see the edges clearly and not have to worry about glare to detect reglossing/recoloring.

They need to post on the front page of the website their lukewarm initial answer to make their owners more aware of the issue. I did get an email response from Mr. Sloan today.

[70ToppsFanatic]

That’s along the lines of the J&J approach that was used with the Tylenol issue years ago. It was the classic “right” way to handle a problem of this nature, although admittedly the consequences of that one were potentially life and death

It would be nice to have that kind of approach taken, but given what has been done in the past by PSA I doubt we will see anything near that. The more familiar “circle the wagons” approach is more typical from their playbook.

[frankbmd]

That’s along the lines of the J&J approach that was used with the Tylenol issue years ago. It was the classic “right” way to handle a problem of this nature, although admittedly the consequences of that one were potentially life and death

It would be nice to have that kind of approach taken, but given what has been done in the past by PSA I doubt we will see anything near that. The more familiar “circle the wagons” approach is more typical from their playbook.

And handling cards with “razor sharp” corners is not potentially a life and death issue?

[h2oya311]

LOL, I find it funny that the largest holder is a quant fund. That's what you get for straying from fundamental investing.

and so is the second...DFA

[barrysloate]

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Hi Dan,
Welcome back to the board. A lot of us knew 10-15 years ago that altered cards were getting slabbed, and at an alarming rate. I know that when I told collectors about it, they thought it was just some harebrained idea, so most of us didn't publicize it. Now it's out in the open, which is a good thing. Maybe it will finally be properly addressed (not guaranteed).

[Anish]

I've not posted much at all on this, but have certainly been active in reading as much as I can. Maybe that's because I have a job, and a second small business on the side (not card related).

What bothers me about going back to the seller is what happens if that seller bought the card from another seller earlier. Now is that seller supposed to go back to the last seller? And then so on? Not all sellers are the original graders.

Back to the car comparison, if you buy a used (and relatively new) car from someone, and that car has a recall, do you go back to the guy you bought it from? Of course not.

The whole premise of PSA's business model is to remove the doubt around the product they viewed.

For me right now, my buying habits have in fact simply stopped. Have been that way for about three weeks now. This makes me sick, and I'm not sure how much I want to continue at the moment. While I'm a small fish, this hurts all dealers, and I will guess am not alone at eliminating my purchases.

Further, this fall I have planned and booked a trip to New York, primarily around finally bringing a large amount of my collection into the PSA offices in NJ, or at the New York Comic Con. My wife and I are spending ten days in the city, but the destination for this vacation was predicated around getting some of my higher end stuff graded. While it may not be much to some collectors here, it is a lot for me. Included in the batch is a complete set of V145-1 hockey with a nice Morenz, Clancy, and Joliat RC's and a host of HOF'ers, some 52 Topps including Matthews and Mays, and dozens and dozens of other cards in the $100-$1000 range. It would cost me, I don't know, a couple of thousand to grade them, if not more? In any case, it is now off the radar. Not giving these guys four figures of cash for an "opinion" that cannot be backed up. I will, however, have an extra day or so in New York, and some extra cash.

You have a raw Paterson set? That’s awesome. Pics??

I would keep those beauties raw. I wish I had kept my set raw tbh

[Bored5000]

What if you now discover a card on the list you bought 5 years ago? Not fair to go back to the seller IMO. Sellers who are innocent are entitled to repose at some point, I would think much sooner than that. It's PSA's eff-up if something is wrong, not the seller, IMO, unless the seller was complicit.

That is pretty much the position I am in. I have a Moser card that I purchased through PWCC over two years ago.

[steve B]

How many years later is it legitimate to go back to an innocent seller?

What is an "unknown" seller and why did Sloan limit the guarantee to that?

I think you are being too kind here. Way too kind. Sloan should be manning up not looking to say we're your court of last resort.

THEY graded the cards not the sellers.

I've seen a dealer take a return on an altered coin that was sold something more than 10 years earlier.
The "negotiation" of the return was very brief.
Hi, do you recall selling me this half dollar?
Yes, that was a while ago.
I sent it in before selling it, and it came back as altered
Oh, can I take a look?
Sure, I think the mintmark was added.
Well, you're right. It has been. I don't know how I missed it. What did you pay
I think it was $X
That sounds about right, is a check ok?

I still visit his shop, and that was in I think 87.
Of course, he wasn't the one doing the altering.

I also got a good look at the altered coin, especially the added mintmark. It was a neat learning experience for me, not such a good day for him. I think the coin went on the next trip to the smelter along with the rest of the junk silver.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can just imagine calling a big AH and saying I won a card from you 5 years ago that I would now like to return for a refund because I suspect it's altered. Or even better, a small ebay seller. The statement is obnoxious, in my view.

[steve B]

I can just imagine calling a big AH and saying I won a card from you 5 years ago that I would now like to return for a refund because I suspect it's altered. Or even better, a small ebay seller. The statement is obnoxious, in my view.

From what I've been given to understand, in both stamps and coins, the good dealers have an unstated lifetime warranty. I've never heard it said openly, but everyone I've talked about the business end with has told me that taking back mistakes, even if they're very old mistakes is just what's done.

When I was running the bicycle shop I do some work for, I essentially took the same view. I know my own work, and while we had a stated warranty of I think 90 days when I got a bike in that I'd worked on that wasn't really right, and that I could tell hadn't been ridden much in about 2 years, I fixed it free. New tires had been part of the original repair, and the little rubber bits from the mold venting hadn't even worn off.
Talk about a surprised and happy customer. :D

[Bigdaddy]

PSA is doing everything they can to:


Limit their liability for their own mistakes
Maintain their brand reputation as the preferred TPG
Not have the hobby go the way of stamps

They are digging in and denying accountability. Maybe they are preparing for a run in politics.

That is all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That is pretty much the position I am in. I have a Moser card that I purchased through PWCC over two years ago.

Start with PWCC and let us know what happens, I guess.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's up to you the collector to figure out if you have problem cards. We aren't going to help.

And if you do, don't bother us, call the seller.

If the seller is "unknown," we'll help you.

By the way, the incredible array of altered cards you're seeing on message boards -- don't worry, PSA is well-versed in detecting fraud.

[Bored5000]

Start with PWCC and let us know what happens, I guess.

Here is a copy of the message I sent to PWCC. I have pretty much zero optimism that there will be any understanding or accommodation from PWCC, but I guess we will see.

"Hello,

I purchased a 1900 Cope's Golfers Tom Morris card from PWCC for $757.76 plus $8 shipping.on May 23, 2017. With what has come to light in recent weeks, I now believe the card was consigned by Gary Moser and was previously in a PSA 2 holder before being altered/soaked. Had I known the card came from Moser and was likely tampered with, I never would have bid on the card.

I am reaching out to you to see what PWCC plans to do for customers who purchased Moser cards that were altered and now reside in higher-graded PSA holders?

Would you kindly advise me of the company's position for those customers who purchased Moser cards from you?

Sincerely,
Eddie Smith"