View Full Version : Is low grade unaltered the new king ?
Rookiemonster
06-03-2019, 10:31 AM
After all the recent happenings what is the new safe bet? Not all low grade is unaltered but I would say most is. If this end up being the worst case scenario where de we end up?
Back to all high grade must be a scam?
Low grade is not worth the cardboard it’s printed on ? Which doesn’t make sense anymore .
As a collector of all eras and mostly owning low to mid grade in my vintage collection. Just wondering how this cookie crumbles as I presume most are.
DeanH3
06-03-2019, 10:58 AM
There very well could be a new emphasis on lower end cards that show honest wear and tear. I have always enjoyed those types of cards.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=1127&pictureid=21947
benjulmag
06-03-2019, 11:05 AM
IMO the new king will be cards with provenance that date it to a period before cards had such value to make restoration profitable.
IMO the new king will be cards with provenance that date it to a period before cards had such value to make restoration profitable.
And cards bought from PWCC have that provenance. While one isn't required to say where one bought a card, and most don't, a question is if it's ethical to sell a card and not disclose that it came from PWCC.
I do feel bad for the collectors, but must admit I'd smile if the PSA Registry is destroyed. I've had problems that thing for years, and have seen (and pointed out) a plethora of problems, including logical/mathenatical, with its ranking system. The ranking system was bad before the PWCC revelations came out. Not to suggest that many collectors themselves don't use it for honest collecting purposes or that there's anything wrong with having a place for collectors to register and show off their collections.
perezfan
06-03-2019, 11:19 AM
IMO the new king will be cards with provenance that date it to a period before cards had such value to make restoration profitable.
That would be the ideal for well educated, high-end collectors. But that scenario assumes that law enforcement is able to come down on the "criminals" and on PSA. That scenario can't happen unless a majority of collectors become aware of the magnitude of this fraud. Currently (and unfortunately), we are a comparatively small group.
The current mentality is the polar opposite of this, and does not take provenance into account whatsoever. The flip is all that matters to the masses.
benjulmag
06-03-2019, 11:35 AM
And cards bought from PWCC have that provenance.
That's a fair point, which makes provenance unfortunately less reliable unless purchased directly from the original owner and that person was known to you to be of such character as to not alter cards.
Where the provenance still would retain value to me as a 19th century collector pertains not so much as to the issue of alteration but to the issue of authenticity. If a rare card popped up out of nowhere and proof of its existence goes back only to a period when such a card already had a great value, I would be very nervous having confidence the card was real, at least not before undertaking some serious forensic analysis (that goes well beyond what any current TPG could provide).
glchen
06-03-2019, 02:36 PM
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
Bicem
06-03-2019, 02:41 PM
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
This.
And of course I will have sold too soon as usual. :(
And I think the new king could also be, as Corey mentioned, provenance. Such as would be the case of cards in packs and other identifying information. If I recall when these were sent to me they were all (20) in this pack. They all measured exactly the same too. It was like buttah, I tell ya'.
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
Agree. The rarity of being the highest graded 1991 Donruss will no longer retain quite the same appeal :)
obcmac
06-03-2019, 03:01 PM
I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.
Mac
RiceBondsMntna2Young
06-03-2019, 05:36 PM
I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.
Mac
Moser’s forefathers had 80 years to doctor those T206s, before Moser even got his shot in the limelight. Don’t forget that upsetting truth. If PSA can’t tell you a card was doctored a few months ago, I don’t know how much confidence there should be that they could tell you it was doctored a few epochs ago.
Rookiemonster
06-03-2019, 05:36 PM
I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.
Mac
Well said and agreed
slidekellyslide
06-03-2019, 05:39 PM
After all the recent happenings what is the new safe bet? Not all low grade is unaltered but I would say most is. If this end up being the worst case scenario where de we end up?
My 1960s complete sets hope so. :D
There is nothing wrong with low grade. I will upgrade this if I ever see another!!
http://luckeycards.com/phunc1929towercochrane.jpg
frankbmd
06-05-2019, 08:25 AM
It looks like Mickey could catch those low outside sliders and brushback fastballs with his ears. No wonder he’s in the Hall.:D
jchcollins
06-05-2019, 08:27 AM
For me, the “new king” will just be the original king - and that surrounds the fact that I like baseball and baseball history first and foremost, and other things are secondary. In comparison to many here, I have a fairly modest collection that is made up of big names in mid-grade from the postwar era, and relatively scant items prewar. But I too at times have gotten suckered into the grading minutiae, spending a lot of time deliberating whether this card for sale in a PSA 6 was really nicer than another one in a PSA 5, etc. etc. The details of the hobby for me at times have taken over for my pure love of the game and appreciation for the history and that sense of nostalgia. So if this all plays out badly, it will be a good wake-up call for me at least to think in those terms. At the end of the day, if this situation gets worse before getting better I can live with the idea of appreciating old cards for their authenticity first and foremost - even if it comes out that a much larger percentage than were know before were truly altered.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
packs
06-05-2019, 08:51 AM
I sure as hell hope so. Nothing altered on this beauty:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4531/38844416522_07c091e8ba_c.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/4649/27934463659_b11fc0aee0_c.jpg
Maybe someday good old fashioned collecting, and appreciating cards for cards, will be king.
Absolutely nothing against the set (I like and collected '70s Topps) and people can do whatever they want, but way back when when I heard someone say he was going to collect the 1977 Topps entirely graded (including every common), I thought that was about the dumbest thing I had ever heard of.
Though I also remember years back when someone used the term "Gem Mint" and I thought he was making a joke.
sandmountainslim
06-05-2019, 11:29 AM
I am an oddball in the hobby because I dislike old cards that are pristine. I want them to have signs of wear and signs of having survived for decades or a century. I am the same way with the comic books that I collect . if I buy a golden age comic I want it to look like some kid enjoyed it rather than someone put it up in a safe as an investment
Goudey77
06-05-2019, 11:33 AM
That green Cobb is amazing. Great find.
Goudey77
06-05-2019, 11:34 AM
That Mickey Cochrane is an example of what this hobby is all about. Love it!
jchcollins
06-05-2019, 11:56 AM
Absolutely nothing against the set (I like and collected '70s Topps) and people can do whatever they want, but way back when when I heard someone say he was going to collect the 1977 Topps entirely graded (including every common), I thought that was about the dumbest thing I had ever heard of.
Can't disagree with you here. '77 is my birth year set, and once just on a whim, I bought a mostly complete NM set on eBay, figuring it would just be nice to have. It arrived, and I laboriously put each card into pages and put the whole thing into an album. A week or so later, I realized I couldn't care less about it. I thought the stars were cool enough, but why did I buy all these commons? Long story short, I turned around and sold the set again on eBay. I guess I've always been more of a "few nice stars in individual cases" collector than a have-to-have-the-entire-set type of guy...
mouschi
06-05-2019, 12:05 PM
I think this is definitely a possibility! Time will tell if low grade cards will take a hit, but it is possible, many will go after those more when the dust settles.
packs
06-05-2019, 12:19 PM
Another unaltered authentic beauty. Save your 8 and 9's this "10" is real:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4581/38569791812_3eef36a159_z.jpg
Rookiemonster
06-06-2019, 03:56 PM
Great cards guys. This is the good stuff all puns intended
yanks87
06-06-2019, 04:17 PM
Give me the well worn cards, they have the character, they have LIVED!! Long live the Pr-Fr!
h2oya311
06-06-2019, 05:30 PM
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
this has mostly been my mantra...rarity trumps condition. But of course, I've gotten suckered into the "condition matters" for some of my post-war collecting interests.
I'm hoping this is the trend, but I think, for the most part, everyone is going to take a hit due to this scandal, even the low-grade collectors. The good will get tossed in with the bad and the low-condition cards will take a hit. I do think the ridiculous spread between a graded 6 and 10 will likely narrow considerably!
JeremyW
06-06-2019, 05:32 PM
this has mostly been my mantra...rarity trumps condition. But of course, I've gotten suckered into the "condition matters" for some of my post-war collecting interests.
I'm hoping this is the trend, but I think, for the most part, everyone is going to take a hit due to this scandal, even the low-grade collectors. The good will get tossed in with the bad and the low-condition cards will take a hit. I do think the ridiculous spread between a graded 6 and 10 will likely narrow considerably!
Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.
brianp-beme
06-06-2019, 05:47 PM
Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.
A substantial amount of cards I own have been tampered with...by some kid in the first few decades of the 1900's. Of course they thought, silly little boys and the occasional girl, that they were improving the original with their juvenile scribbles and scissoring.
Brian
conor912
06-06-2019, 05:50 PM
You can keep your trimmed, altered and restored 10's. I'll take a real battle scarred 2 any day.
CMIZ5290
06-06-2019, 06:00 PM
Another unaltered authentic beauty. Save your 8 and 9's this "10" is real:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4581/38569791812_3eef36a159_z.jpg
delete
h2oya311
06-06-2019, 06:04 PM
Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.
good point! But I think the "game" is much more impactful to the higher end of the grading scale based on my observations of what one pays for a "6" vs. a "9" or "10".
Interestingly, if/when PSA pays out for any of these altered cards, you'll notice that PSA A's of some cards sell for prices akin to those in the PSA 5/6 range due to their perceived sharpness and superior condition compared to those with creases and punch-holes. I wonder if they'll point to those sales to figure out the amount owed (the price differential) due to their "guarantee".
Also, I wonder if PSA will just credit people's accounts for the amounts owed instead of paying in cash to limit the up-front damage. I'm regretting my decision years ago to do just that when I was given a larger amount of PSA "store credit" vs. taking the refund in cash when I had a counterfeit card that had been encapsulated by PSA and they took it back upon review. I still haven't used those funds. Yikes!
JeremyW
06-06-2019, 06:17 PM
good point! But I think the "game" is much more impactful to the higher end of the grading scale based on my observations of what one pays for a "6" vs. a "9" or "10".
Interestingly, if/when PSA pays out for any of these altered cards, you'll notice that PSA A's of some cards sell for prices akin to those in the PSA 5/6 range due to their perceived sharpness and superior condition compared to those with creases and punch-holes. I wonder if they'll point to those sales to figure out the amount owed (the price differential) due to their "guarantee".
Also, I wonder if PSA will just credit people's accounts for the amounts owed instead of paying in cash to limit the up-front damage. I'm regretting my decision years ago to do just that when I was given a larger amount of PSA "store credit" vs. taking the refund in cash when I had a counterfeit card that had been encapsulated by PSA and they took it back upon review. I still haven't used those funds. Yikes!
I wouldn't count on PSA or PWCC paying out anything.
brianp-beme
06-06-2019, 06:33 PM
What??? It also looks like it's been in someone's bicycle spokes (no offense) Am I missing something? I can't believe this thread....Just because there are a couple of corrupt dealers out there, we now just disregard high grades? Wow....We are taking this PWCC thing way beyond the spectrum....
I have always disregarded high grades...didn't need a scandal to push me toward lower condition. And there are plenty others out there like me, who, for various reasons collect in a similiar fashion (for me it was a matter of economics, but also just plain not wanting something as old as a vintage PreWW2 card looking like it just came out of pack).
Ideally in my mind one of the better outcomes of this whole mess would be that the focus would, at least in our vintage neck of the baseball card world, shift at least a little away from the investment aspect, the registry chasing, the 'buy the label, not the card' mentality toward something more balanced and collector friendly. There will and should always be a place for folks looking for the best, but I would love to see more energy in the hobby focused upon the love of collecting, the sport of baseball, and its wonderful history captured on cardboard.
Brian
packs
06-07-2019, 07:04 AM
What??? It also looks like it's been in someone's bicycle spokes (no offense) Having said that, very nice green Cobb for the grade... Am I missing something? I can't believe this thread....Just because there are a couple of corrupt dealers out there, we now just disregard high grades as being tampered with? Wow....We are taking this PWCC thing way beyond the spectrum....
I think you mean it looks like a low grade unaltered card. If you want trimmed or miscut cards over unaltered cards to each their own. My Mickey is as centered as it gets and it didn't take scissors to get there. No tampering here either:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48018804858_1a53f6883f_z.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48018788926_6fb95272f7_z.jpg
mouschi
06-07-2019, 07:48 AM
You can keep your trimmed, altered and restored 10's. I'll take a real battle scarred 2 any day.
Real battle scarred 2 - I love it! :p
buymycards
06-07-2019, 08:05 AM
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
True, but PSA and Beckett have both proven many times over that they are not able to correctly identify rare cards.
aconte
06-07-2019, 08:10 AM
The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.
Only if people want the card. Plenty of rare cards/issues that don't sell as
well as mainstream issues and players. That won't change.
Copa7
06-07-2019, 08:36 AM
I agree with the sentiment of collecting for historical and for the shear pleasure. I'm not against making a buck, but maybe the pendulum can swing back to purists and not over priced greed.
The story of where a card has been is as important, if not greater, than its dollar value to me.
Ironically, these third party sellers and graders have marred exactly what they set out to prevent.
I've long known (and opined at Net54) that many high grade cards in holders are altered and that it was foolish to spend long-term big money on them.
But I've never had an interest in that area, and am like many on Net54 who appreciate some honest signs of old age to a card.
I remember I had a 1933 Goudey Gehringer that was in such bad shape that I called it "The Devil's beer coaster."