New allegations on BO

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351

The title of the thread there is
Brent Huigens & PWCC Used pwcc_auctions ID to Buy Cards for Gary Moser to Trim/Alter

[ullmandds]

No doubt they are engaged in a menage a trois of sorts...imho that is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No doubt they are engaged in a menage a trois of sorts...imho that is.

Looks more like a pas de deux to me.

[swarmee]

My latest email to Steve Sloan (Cc: Betsy):
Steve, you should really cut all ties with PWCC: no more advertising, no more submissions, no more radio show call-ins, no more nothing. Go cold turkey.

If they buy back the fraudulent cards sold through their service and eliminate the sales, how much does your grade guarantee really come into play?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=269654

The FBI can't be far behind. Please don't shred any "evidence"; Brent doesn't even know the definition of that word.
Thanks!

[swarmee]

Remember the two things that went missing on the internet this week: pre-2015 back scans and obfuscated buyer ids...

[CobbSpikedMe]

This doesn't even surprise me at this point. That's sad. :(

[ullmandds]

Looks more like a pas de deux to me.

You’re forgetting betsy.

[frankbmd]

Brent just needs to post another "calming" video for his investors on youtube. Problem solved. Where's Martin?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[swarmee]

https://img.comc.com/i/Non-Sports/1994/SkyBox-Bongo-Comics-Simpsons-Series-2---Characters/S-23/Martin-Prince.jpg?id=e9247b79-5bc3-4643-9da3-9efd94f3a4d3&size=original (https://www.comc.com/Cards/Non-Sports/1994/SkyBox_Bongo_Comics_Simpsons_Series_2_-_Characters/S_23/Martin_Prince/9957828)
1994 SkyBox Bongo Comics Simpsons Series 2 - Characters #S 23 - Martin Prince
Courtesy of COMC.com (https://www.comc.com)

Ivy League edumacated.

[Rookiemonster]

If this is true. RIP any card bought and sold through PWCC. All the cards they ever handled are pretty much deemed suspect from this moment on. Also a big blow for “High End” this backs what collectors have been saying for years. As to the idea that high grade card should not exist.

If true we all know this is not the first time someone has tried this and not the last. I also would that a lot of others scammers are out in the world doing this.

[swarmee]

If true we all know this is not the first time someone has tried this and not the last. I also would that a lot of others scammers are out in the world doing this.

Oh, Blowout has already identified 10 other scammers in the last couple of months. Hot and heavy trimming with BGS, mostly: Kevin Burge, SSI (Sliheets). Just spend a few days there in their member feedback section and it's like you've taken the red pill from The Matrix.

[darwinbulldog]

I wonder how many of the outed cards will be showing up for auction again this summer.

[chalupacollects]

Remember the two things that went missing on the internet this week: pre-2015 back scans and obfuscated buyer ids...

And I'm sure any official investigators would find that tidbit most interesting...you might say the evidence you can't see may be the most damning...

[swarmee]

It's always the cover up that hurts the most. And who asked that those things disappear? eBay per VCP.

[steve B]

I thought the IDs were back?

[t206madman]

I really don't know much of the details as to what is going on with PWCC, but I read some of the Blowout forum in the link and have an idea.

Does this mean I should suspect trimming or alterations on any PWCC cards I purchased?

[swarmee]

I thought the IDs were back?
They are, but the fact that eBay told Bobby to pull them in the first place was not cool. And it was very likely to have been prodded by PWCC.

I would only worry about the cards bought from PWCC if they're from 1886 to 2019. The rest are probably fine.

[bobbyw8469]

I really don't know much of the details as to what is going on with PWCC, but I read some of the Blowout forum in the link and have an idea.

Does this mean I should suspect trimming or alterations on any PWCC cards I purchased?

Most definitely. I know I would. Especially any card with a "High End Sticker". Hell, any card worth over, say $1,000 is quite suspect IMHO.

[Mdmtx]

How does PSA determine the amount refund on an improperly graded card? Is it based on current market? Amount paid? Other?

Mark

[swarmee]

How does PSA determine the amount refund on an improperly graded card? Is it based on current market? Amount paid? Other?

Current market per their Grade Guarantee.

[bobbyw8469]

How does PSA determine the amount refund on an improperly graded card? Is it based on current market? Amount paid? Other?

Mark

Who knows. This is unprecedented. I'm just blown away at the SHEER (or is it SHEAR..haha) MAGNITUDE at the volume of cards that have been tampered with. I would be totally shocked if the Feds don't come in like they did Mastro.

[frankbmd]

I wonder if Moser has ever asked for a refund on a rare downgraded card.:eek:

[swarmee]

And what a Bull market we are in.

[Bram99]

They are, but the fact that eBay told Bobby to pull them in the first place was not cool. And it was very likely to have been prodded by PWCC.

I would only worry about the cards bought from PWCC if they're from 1886 to 2019. The rest are probably fine.

You can also narrow it down to sports and non-sports trading cards.

[frankbmd]

At least John gave us the 1886-2019 window.

I see where Topps is now taking orders on the 2037 Baseball Card Set featuring Aaron Judge Jr. RCs.

[Kenny Cole]

And I'm sure any official investigators would find that tidbit most interesting...you might say the evidence you can't see may be the most damning...

Yeah. I saw how well that part of it worked with Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least John gave us the 1886-2019 window.

I see where Topps is now taking orders on the 2037 Baseball Card Set featuring Aaron Judge Jr. RCs.

And the last card of Mike Trout, who made a comeback at age 46 to try once more to make the playoffs for the first time in his career.

[swarmee]

If they need some legal advice, these guys have some:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ImNy7ikpSZDIBHUkuf0fyviB-b4=/0x0:3000x2000/920x613/filters:focal(663x714:1143x1194):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61577675/McGwireSosa20Years_Getty_Ringer.0.jpg
"We're not here to talk about the past."

[swarmee]

Brent just needs to post another "calming" video for his investors on youtube. Problem solved. Where's Martin?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

PaulMaul is doing a pretty good impression:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1019062/alteration-vs-conservation-now-defined-by-pwcc/p4

[MULLINS5]

Must suck to be censored.

[drcy]

Apparently, the CGC labeling of comic books includes calling 'conserved' comic as unaltered. This conservation includes pressing and removing of binding and coloring!

This is 100% what baseball card collectors don't want and are against. If a card has been conserved or restored fine, but the baseball card wants and insists the work be designated on the label-- and the card can't get a numerical grade.

Now I know why PWCC, and Goudey, want the baseball card hobby to adopt that labeling system. The CGC labeling system doesn't label what the baseball card hobby consider alterations.

[swarmee]

Sent this to the FDLE tipline this morning

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295881

There is a very large scandal going on in the baseball card community with high level scammers taking advantage of the grading companies and scamming people for millions. One of these is Robert Block, who altered cards to make them look better, passed them through the certifying company Beckett Grading Service, and then sold them through Pre-War Card Collector (PWCC) on eBay. Since Block lives in Florida, the authorities here should be contacted.

Here is more information about the scams; the FBI should be brought in as well:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1293713

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296184

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288383

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1292005

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1276110&highlight=superior

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1285940&highlight=superior

My father was the Bureau Chief of the Fort Myers branch of FDLE for 20 years until he died five years ago. I would like to see this investigated and passed to the proper authorities in each district and federal.
Thanks!
John Rafferty

[bobbyw8469]

I'm totally sickened by all this. In my opinion, there is a big difference between removing wax stains with panythose and trimming cards and adding color. Disgusting.

[swarmee]

All laid out on a silver platter. If you live in Texas, report the BGS/SSI stuff. If you live in Oregon, report the PWCC stuff, if you live in New York, report PWCC for taking away state sales tax from their Vault promotions.

[CuriousGeorge]

It's always the cover up that hurts the most. And who asked that those things disappear? eBay per VCP.

It wasn’t eBay.

[swarmee]

Well, Bobby claims to have proof. And phone records showing many long calls with eBay reps to resolve it. So if it was just Brent and not eBay, that's another company that will take it on the chin.

[bnorth]

Sent this to the FDLE tipline this morning

That is great, I seriously appreciate all that is going on to expose the scammers.

IMHO nobody is taking advantage of the grading companies. They are either in on it or they hire blind graders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A scandal is occurring that is apparently massive in proportion affecting graded cards at all levels and we're worried about a few hours when some VCP data went dark? WTF.

[CuriousGeorge]

A scandal is occurring that is apparently massive in proportion affecting graded cards at all levels and we're worried about a few hours when some VCP data went dark? WTF.

Shows Brent was trying to kill the evidence and stop the BO guys from investigating further. And then covering it up by blaming on eBay. Seems pretty bad to me. Aren’t you an attorney?

[topcat61]

You’re forgetting betsy.

Looking at her profile on Linked In, she's not a stupid woman, and she has to know nearly everything this Auction House is doing. I haven't seen PWCC's financial statements but they claim $50 million in annual sales, so there are 2 things that can occur: 1. Since there appears to be more than enough evidence against PWCC in the form of Shill The only problem

[iowadoc77]

A scandal is occurring that is apparently massive in proportion affecting graded cards at all levels and we're worried about a few hours when some VCP data went dark? WTF.

I think people are just trying to put all the pieces together. But I could be wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Shows Brent was trying to kill the evidence and stop the BO guys from investigating further. And then covering it up by blaming on eBay. Seems pretty bad to me. Aren’t you an attorney?

The evidence against Brent is massive. To me the VCP thing is a sideshow, if that.

[CuriousGeorge]

The evidence against Brent is massive. To me the VCP thing is a sideshow, if that.

When Brent claims he was duped by Moser and had no clue, he and Bobby are going to have to explain why they removed the links to stop the BO guys from investigating. Bobby presumably is not going to continue lying about this for Brent when he eventually is going to have to explain the story to the Feds, so why would Brent be asking him to do this and then concocting the absurd story of eBay doing it on Memorial Day weekend if he wasn’t aware of the crimes being committed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

When Brent claims he was duped by Moser and had no clue, he and Bobby are going to have to explain why they removed the links to stop the BO guys from investigating. Bobby presumably is not going to continue lying to the Feds for Brent so why would Brent be asking him to do this and then concocting the absurd story of eBay doing it on Memorial Day weekend if he wasn’t aware of the crimes being committed?

I understand the issue, I am just saying to me in the context of massive direct evidence of fraud it's a sideshow. Particularly with no smoking gun (that I am aware of anyhow). Brent will not claim that, by the way, in my opinion, he's told way too many people he knows exactly what Gary does. Not to mention the paper trail.

[iowadoc77]

Can you even imagine where Brent has to be mentally in all this? Walls have to feel like they are closing in!

And yet the auction is cranking and bids are flying in as per usual.

House of cards ready to crash.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can you even imagine where Brent has to be mentally in all this? Walls have to feel like they are closing in!

And yet the auction is cranking and bids are flying in as per usual.

House of cards ready to crash.

Either the world doesn't know yet, or the world doesn't care.
It's ironic that if you scroll down to the bottom of this thread (at least right now) you see his ad. Surreal, in a way.

[ullmandds]

Either the world doesn't know yet, or the world doesn't care.
It's ironic that if you scroll down to the bottom of this thread (at least right now) you see his ad. Surreal, in a way.

I visualize a "breaking bad" type of scenario with brent/betsy/Moser...pumping out product as fast as they can and burying stacks of cash somewhere to recover after doing their sentences.

[CuriousGeorge]

Either the world doesn't know yet, or the world doesn't care.
It's ironic that if you scroll down to the bottom of this thread (at least right now) you see his ad. Surreal, in a way.

The world doesn’t know. But they’re going to know very soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The world doesn’t know. But they’re going to know very soon.

I think so, and certainly hope so, in this day and age word will spread.

[cubman1941]

My latest email to Steve Sloan (Cc: Betsy):

Don't disagree but then what about our site which has PWCC ad in banner?

[ullmandds]

Don't disagree but then what about our site which has PWCC ad in banner?

that's leon's preference to continue to associate with a crook!

[Exhibitman]

How does PSA determine the amount refund on an improperly graded card? Is it based on current market? Amount paid? Other?

Mark

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

[Peter_Spaeth]

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

On its current trajectory this scandal is going to be the biggest threat they have dealt with yet. We'll see if they do their WIWAG ostrich thing again or provide a more meaningful response.

[MULLINS5]

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

[Exhibitman]

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

:eek:

[CuriousGeorge]

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

I suspect they are going to bury their head in the sand like they always have and hope it all just goes away. I can assure you it’s not. This time it’s going to be different.

[ullmandds]

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

haha...funny! Brent either had everybody fooled or everybody's in on it!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

PWCC had and probably still has lots of people drinking their Kool Aid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suspect they are going to bury their head in the sand like they always have and hope it all just goes away. I can assure you it’s not. This time it’s going to be different.

Steven, yeah that's certainly been their corporate culture. Will the new guy Sloan make a difference, or the sheer magnitude of it?

[Exhibitman]

My prediction: not until the summonses start landing on the desk of CU's registered agent for service of process...

[CuriousGeorge]

Steven, yeah that's certainly been their corporate culture. Will the new guy Sloan make a difference, or the sheer magnitude of it?

If you look at the market cap of CLCT, the amount they have in reserve to pay out for claims like these, and then do a rough calculation as to their legitimate exposure, I suspect Sloan is having a very hard time sleeping at night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you look at the market cap of CLCT, the amount they have in reserve to pay out for claims like these, and then do a rough calculation as to their legitimate exposure, I suspect Sloan is having a very hard time sleeping at night.

Yup. It's ugly. Now of course they probably have a claim over against whoever submitted these fraudulent cards, be it Brent or Gary, for breach of the submission agreement and maybe fraud, but that's probably not much consolation.

They also face the possibility of securities fraud claims, I suppose, if they have reason to know their reserve is materially insufficient.

[CuriousGeorge]

Yup. It's ugly. Now of course they probably have a claim over against whoever submitted these fraudulent cards, be it Brent or Gary, for breach of the submission agreement and maybe fraud, but that's probably not much consolation.

They also face the possibility of securities fraud claims, I suppose, if they have reason to know their reserve is materially insufficient.

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

[Republicaninmass]

Could be a similar response

" As (insert whatever helps here) is a federal offense, it is common that the FBI becomes involved to achieve restitution from the suspected party. In this particular case, there may be an open FBI investigation, and we recommend that any parties involved reach out to that organization directly"

Paraphrased from a TPG, until my grades ship next werk

[Peter_Spaeth]

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

Brent can't blame Moser.

[iowadoc77]

PWCC had and probably still has lots of people drinking their Kool Aid.

One needs only look at the current bids and it appears to be business as usual.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One needs only look at the current bids and it appears to be business as usual.

As it was for Legendary, until it wasn't.

[swarmee]

If Brent was smart, he'd cancel all his eBay listings and return the cards to his consignors. Well, the cards that can't be used as evidence.

Edit: And I emailed him this recommendation and CC: Steve Sloan.

[Rhotchkiss]

John, I appreciate the letter you sent to the FL authorities. Thank you

[iowadoc77]

As it was for Legendary, until it wasn't.

Agreed. The walls are getting weaker. To speak nothing of the vault.

[t206madman]

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

[drcy]

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.

Or sheet cut!!

[swarmee]

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.
Well, they don't have $4 million in the bank to pay out on that one, either. But I've said before that the owner of the card (and the community as a whole) would probably say there's not much value lost on that card by putting it in an AUTH ALTERED holder because it is the most famous copy of the most famous card in the world, and was owned by the most famous hockey player.

[jad22]

I think so, and certainly hope so, in this day and age word will spread.

The current auction prices look like this has had no effect at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The current auction prices look like this has had no effect at all.

It will take time to have an effect, but I believe it will.

[jad22]

It will take time to have an effect, but I believe it will.

I can't imagine people would already have bids up to 28 grand on the E98 Cobb knowing all this.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Not everyone knows all this yet.

[swarmee]

Maybe they just want PSA to take it deeper out of hide.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't imagine people would already have bids up to 28 grand on the E98 Cobb knowing all this.

Small corner of the collecting world, this and BO.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

We on Net54, often fall into the trap of thinking we are a large piece of the collecting world. I can't tell you how many times I've had people buy tobacco cards from me and I ask if they're a member of Net 54 and they look at me very confused and ask "what?" Hopefully some take my advice and join, but we are a small percentage of collectors to be sure.

EDIT: Fine Peter, say it more succinctly and get in first lol.

[topcat61]

You’re forgetting betsy.

First there's a lot of talk about Fraud and Shill Bidding without the words "alleged". My gut is telling me that all the investigating at Blowout Cards and what people here are saying is accurate, but I'd still go with the wording "alleged". Certainly people are angry with PWCC and Brent Huigens hasn't done himself any favors during that interview, but he isn't apart of a criminal investigation that I'm aware of.

I haven't seen PWCC's financial statements but they claim $50 million in annual sales which is a clear motive for an alleged fraud, but people have to be careful with these accusations from a legal standpoint at this point.

It's somewhat ambiguous to me that card doctoring is illegal but there is precedent for a potential indictment in the Bill Mastro and Doug Allen cases. These two cases could debunk Brent's assertion that "before and after" photos aren't evidence, but I suppose it isn't a crime unless the card is sold or the company knowingly sells items which have been altered and doesn't inform the purchaser. In order for someone to conclude that is the case -Before and after photos are just half of what's needed to build a case. There are 2 things which immediately come to mind: 1) If Shill Bidding is evident, (which is illegal) a forensic computer analyst should be involved with that. 2) Follow the money and emails and flip certain key people within. I don't think you can flip Betsy Huigens since she's married to Brent but the CFO, IT guys and low to mid level auction. operations guys can be much easier.

I wouldn't just look into PWCC but also PSA and see if there's a grader or two on the take looking the other way. Personally, I don't trust the grading companies and wouldn't submit a card with one.

Lastly, everyone is entitled to a defense -even Brent and Betsy Huigens and if there is any wrong doing, it should be settled in a courtroom, not a court of opinion. I'd say that if anyone truly feels that they have case against PWCC, that they should make it with the AG or their state, the Oregon AG or FBI for further investigation.

[swarmee]

I wouldn't just look into PWCC but also PSA and see if there's a grader or two on the take looking the other way.

I haven't even posted this 50-page thread on blowout that was started like two days ago about BGS giving impossibly favorable grades to a former employee who is still friends with their graders:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

BGS is in on the scam. That I have no doubt. PSA I can still be convinced is just COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT. Also, I am not a lawyer. If someone wants to sue me or send me a C&D, maybe I can get one of you awesome barristers to represent me pro bono. Oddly enough, I have received zero emails/messages asking me to stop posting. As they say, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

[orly57]

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

[celoknob]

WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away

Your Alex Jones conspiracy theories are really disgusting. Spewing out this filth about Sandy Hook where 20 children were murdered and 27 total killed. Then conspiracy theorists harassed parents of the dead until Jones finally blamed his belief in this false theory on "pyschosis".

Kell Wilson

[Leon]

I have had 2 pm''s concerning his post. His name has been put under his id. I think what he said is disgusting, and totally disagree with him, but am not sure taking it down is the right thing to do? It is definitely debatable, though probably better for another thread. If that post is taken down do we then go find the other posts in this forum which are disgusting (to whomever) and delete them too? And if the post is taken down won't we be hiding the way he feels/thinks (quite crazy) so other members can know? Personally, I would rather know that someone is ape-shit crazy, but that is just me.
This is not a black and white situation. I wish it were.

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

[swarmee]

If anywhere, they belong in the off-topic section.

[griffon512]

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

[robkas68]

I have never sold anything with PWCC. I have purchased some things through PWCC though not too much in the last few years for no other reason then their sale prices have been too rich for my blood. I have purchased a couple items from other people named on blowout, but they have generally been low dollar $15-20 type stuff. Today I found my first hit:

T205 Mathewson. No idea if it is bad, and it was not the huge hit some people will take, but I did pay around $350 for it. The other card really doesn't have anything to do with the thread, I just photograph the cards I put in my safe deposit box.

[barrysloate]

I have had 2 pm''s concerning his post. His name has been put under his id. I think what he said is disgusting, and totally disagree with him, but am not sure taking it down is the right thing to do? It is definitely debatable, though probably better for another thread. If that post is taken down do we then go find the other posts in this forum which are disgusting (to whomever) and delete them too? This is not a black and white situation.

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe they just want PSA to take it deeper out of hide.



John, this is in reference to this price of the Cobb?

They say they can pay market price or SMR value. This card is probably shilled by the consignor

[orly57]

I don’t care if you take it down or not. It is a nice reminder, however, that we have far bigger problems to worry about than Brent and PSA.

[swarmee]

T205 Mathewson. No idea if it is bad, and it was not the huge hit some people will take, but I did pay around $350 for it. The other card really doesn't have anything to do with the thread, I just photograph the cards I put in my safe deposit box.
Put it under a blacklight to see if you can detect recoloring, reglossing, or pressed out creases. According to one poster, Corey (Last Name Unknown), PSA will review it for free because of this scandal. If it was altered and you want it in an AUTH-ALTERED slab, they'll refund you the difference in values.

Edit: looks like it is Cory Weiser who posted his call from PSA.

[swarmee]

John, this is in reference to this price of the Cobb?
They say they can pay market price or SMR value. This card is probably shilled by the consignor
It was in reference. Posts are fast and furious this week getting in the way... ;-)
The eyes of the collecting/sleuthing community is on PSA at this moment. If they try to weasel out of paying their fair share, they are liable to be sued class-action style.
That's why I recommend PSA tell PWCC to IMMEDIATELY REMOVE ALL AUCTION LISTINGS and emailed it to Steve Sloan and copied the Huigens. Just more liability for the publicly traded company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

I'm personally relieved to hear it was fake because in the day I spent a lot of time agonizing about it.

PS this individual has no place on this Board.

[barrysloate]

I'm personally relieved to hear it was fake because in the day I spent a lot of time agonizing about it.

PS this individual has no place on this Board.

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

I think Leon is being way too forgiving here, myself.

[swarmee]

Yeah, I would get it out of this thread. If the OP wants to try again in the right section, he can go down that road. Leon, please edit out the post and responses to the post/quoting. I don't think it's worth discussing in OT either, but then, I rarely visit that section.

[itslarry]

They are, but the fact that eBay told Bobby to pull them in the first place was not cool. And it was very likely to have been prodded by PWCC.

I would only worry about the cards bought from PWCC if they're from 1886 to 2019. The rest are probably fine.

Anything in a bgs 10 is suspect now too.

[griffon512]

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

There is one less father. He killed himself recently: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/nyregion/sandy-hook-father.html

It wasn't a hoax to him.

[sportscardtheory]

Wouldn't anyone who has ever had a verified submission with either PSA, BGS, or who has ever consigned with PWCC, have a legal right to pursue damages for the unfair treatment they have received from these corporations pertaining to the market in which they are a part of? I mean, PSA and BGS are clearly giving these fraudsters a means to commit fraud while not giving the same lax grading privileges to every person who submits. Think of it this way, little ol' me submits cards straight from packs, gets a bunch of 8s and 9s, these scum are submitting ALTERED cards and getting 10s. Is that fair to me, in a legal sense, considering the TPG's mission statement?

And PWCC is buying their own consignees' cards through their OWN consignments, altering them and reselling them for themselves, which is akin to insider trading, being that they have the means to select which cards they want for themselves because they are in-hand, misrepresent the card in the listing, buy it cheaply themselves, alter, sell high. On one card alone Moser/PWCC banked $21,000+ after "purchasing" it from their consignee. Couldn't the original owner pursue that $21,000+ from PWCC and/or PSA? There is so much going on here, with paper/online trails, it's amazing that it lasted this long.

[Johnny630]

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

Here is my solution to this

Search warrants for one Slimy Business and all their dealings...find out whom the guys are resubmitted the doctored cards...who’s invoices are they using...

I said this months ago on board use the daube they use on PSA/DNA items it’s invisible, only psa can see, would insure once graded or not graded that’s it done ✅ if crack, doctor and resub it would instantly show what’s going on....idk maybe It’s a insane idea and would cut down on resubs and crack outs but it would stop this mess....or at least attempt to prevent it daube all items log grade and or non grade and done.

Sure people and PSA will hate this cause they won’t be able to crack out and gamble but it’s a solution.

[swarmee]

So the way to prevent future card alterations is to alter the card? Not buying it, plus PSA would have to share with BGS, SGC etc their technology because they have competitors. And there are 30 million cards in slabs that have not had this done.

[Johnny630]

It’s not altering a card.....it’s done on all psa/dna Signed items now...including vintage signed cards...
Only new items ... PSA can’t go back and change what happened in the past they can only find a solution to try and prevent

[CobbSpikedMe]

Sure people and PSA will hate this cause they won’t be able to crack out and gamble but it’s a solution.

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

[Johnny630]

It’s a solution........good guys are collateral damage as always thank the crooks mentioned above who have been exposed

PSA has to do something .......

[CobbSpikedMe]

I hear ya. I just feel like PSA needs to get better at detecting alterations and labelling cards as such instead of stopping people from resubmitting cards. :)

[Johnny630]

Well I feel your pain too.....PSA isn’t gonna wanna do this they get tons of money on crack out and submit again......however....if they can’t trust their grader with catching doctored altered cards how in heck can their Brand And Opinion be substantiated......Something has to be done to catch altered cards what they’re doing now isn’t working ......to me .my idea would work
It’s accurate as hell

[sportscardtheory]

I would never let a company that allows altered cards to be given numerical grades mark my cards. No way.

[Rhotchkiss]

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

Much better success rate presumably.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

First, I have to admit, I've never submitted a card for grading so I don't know why someone would crack and resubmit but I thought that's what people do. I just didn't see why they shouldn't be allowed to do that any more. :)

[Johnny630]

Solution My Idea VS Spinning Wheels complaining and allowing to go on
I know it sucks but it’s the crooks mentioned above fault along with their ineptitude of not catching when grading cards....
if that could be fixed without this we wouldn’t even be having this talk ....they obviously can’t get it done over there

[CobbSpikedMe]

....they obviously can’t get it done over there

That I agree with for sure.

[Johnny630]

I want PSA to be a great company to be around to be viable and to be the best. I have a Lotta big cards in their holders. I do not believe they are in on this not one bit, they are just very inept at catching this right now when grading cards. I want them to get better and to succeed I believe a true solution is my solution that I mentioned above. I don’t want this to happen but I think right now it’s needed. They are trying their best and I do not believe they are part of the fraud that is going on....It’s not smart for their business I would never expect that from them. They have a Lotta good people over there and business along with their shareholders his first

[slidekellyslide]

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

[perezfan]

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

Agreed. I would punt the post, and the poster, no hesitation. Leon, I think you are overthinking it.

[perezfan]

I want PSA to be a great company to be around to be viable and to be the best. I have a Lotta big cards in their holders. I do not believe they are in on this not one bit, they are just very inept at catching this right now when grading cards. I want them to get better and to succeed I believe a true solution is my solution that I mentioned above. I don’t want this to happen but I think right now it’s needed. They are trying their best and I do not believe they are part of the fraud that is going on....It’s not smart for their business I would never expect that from them. They have a Lotta good people over there and business along with their shareholders his first

Pretty typical response from someone deeply invested in the "Emperors New Clothes" (courtesy of PSA).

[Johnny630]

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

Agree delete

[perezfan]

I would never let a company that allows altered cards to be given numerical grades mark my cards. No way.

Amen!

[70ToppsFanatic]

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

[swarmee]

I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum.
I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

[slidekellyslide]

I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

There are no politics or religion allowed in the off topic section, and even though I don't consider the comments to be political, a comment like that would definitely lead there.

[oldjudge]

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

[pokerplyr80]

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

[slidekellyslide]

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

[Kenny Cole]

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

LOL I'm not so sure how well that's been working lately. :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

Last time I checked the Bill of Rights did not apply to a message board.

[swarmee]

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Quoted for the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is certainly a spectrum of alterations, but I think there is still a clear hobby consensus that taking out creases and using chemicals to clean -- without disclosing -- are not acceptable.
Anyhow it's moot here there is massive evidence many cards were trimmed and recolored.

[Rhotchkiss]

Much better success rate presumably.

I guess you are right. Like Andy, I am not a submitter, and the few times I asked for a bump (with decent success), I submitted in the flip. I would be too nervous to crack.

Also, PEOPLE, just stop responding to that idiot’s D-Bag post. You are giving it legs it doesn’t deserve. “And that about all I have to say about that” Forrest Gump

How about a card - I think this is misgraded; there is no way this is altered. SGC blew it! the tape holding the card together was most definitely put on in the Croft’s factory, in 1909 and sold like this.

[jad22]

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

Not as big as this issue but did anyone ever hear PSA, JSA or SGC indicate what actions they were taken to the fake signed cards? They just waited everyone out. Maybe SGC dumping autographs was their response.

[Exhibitman]

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

Guys, don't feed the troll.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

It was tangentially related to cards. Don’t muzzle him, just ignore or explain why you disagree and move on.

[chalupacollects]

You can also narrow it down to sports and non-sports trading cards.


Coins are probably ok too as they are tougher to trim...

[chalupacollects]

I'm totally sickened by all this. In my opinion, there is a big difference between removing wax stains with pantyhose and trimming cards and adding color. Disgusting.

If one chooses to remove wax or add color wearing panty hose that's their right!:p

As long as they do it in their own home I guess....

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[111gecko]

Rarely post but have done business with many of you. After years of being a fraud examiner; I know a couple things to be true: If there is something nefarious going on 1) someone who feels they didn’t get a big enough cut or 2) has a big mouth with too much to drink will always talk. It only takes 1 to unravel it all....I would surmise that day is coming.

[steve B]

Coins are probably ok too as they are tougher to trim...

Trim yes, alter.... nope, plenty of altered coins out there. And some of the same arguments apply, like what level of cleaning is ok and what isn't.

[jad22]

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

[swarmee]

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

[steve B]

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

[t206madman]

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

[Exhibitman]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/well_bye_2.jpg

[Leon]

There is a rule at the top of every page that says if you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be by your post (or attainable from it). With respect to that you are more than welcome to share your views. But you have to be accountable for what you say on this forum, just like everyone else, and that is why your name is there. You won't be banned unless you do something of a bannable nature. If you want to be banned, you can just leave, no one will follow you.
Only having crazy and or distorted views of reality, in and of itself, won't get you banned here. With a little over 10,000 members we have to have a few crazy ones. :confused:

This all said you are welcome to start a thread in the watercooler section to discuss it more or you can just leave. Whatever floats your boat, but this thread should be to discuss the original topic.

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

[CobbSpikedMe]

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

You seriously think no news outlet or the kids from that town or parents would have spoken out about the "Fake" event? You're nuts dude. And laughable. I'm glad I'm too stupid for you. Bye bye loony tunes.

Andy Huntoon

[swarmee]

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

[Misunderestimated]

I was sort of thinking about the Salvador Mundi "Da Vinci" too.
There is a recent Podcast by Michael Lewis that dealt with this and seems apposite.... It talks about the incentives for corrupt authentication in what may have been the ultimate collectible of the past several years.
https://atrpodcast.com/episodes/the-hand-of-leonardo-s1!7616f

Some other stray thoughts.

--Authentication (and grading) is market driven like everything else and PSA occupies a strong position in the market ... (Good for them but maybe too good for them?)... As I think it was Kenny Cole who wisely noted several posts above, collectors would be mad if they took longer and charged more .... On the other hand the pricing structure is supposed to mean that we can expect more scrutiny when the stakes are higher (based on the value of the submission although this is a bit murky sometimes).

Maybe when the stakes really are high we should recognize that PSA/SGC/BGS are worth what they can do for the price charged -- Maybe consumers should demand and be willing to pay more then. (They are still bound by their guarantees)
Maybe if the card is really important we should demand a "higher authority" i.e. a more expensive one or more than one.
==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
Submitters, Deceptive Sellers
Its another thing to knowingly submit it under false pretenses and then to sell it once the submitter gets it past the grading authority (knowing that the grading company was "deceived") -- the same holds true of accepting the consignment knowing the grading company was deceived.That furthers the deception.
==

[barrysloate]

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Listen dumbass, my brother was killed in an accident when he was fourteen. If you told my father he was making it up he would have have knocked your hillbilly teeth right down your throat. Please leave this board.

[t206madman]

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.


There is a rule at the top of every page that says if you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be by your post (or attainable from it). With respect to that you are more than welcome to share your views. But you have to be accountable for what you say on this forum, just like everyone else, and that is why your name is there. You won't be banned unless you do something of a bannable nature. If you want to be banned, you can just leave, no one will follow you.
Only having crazy and or distorted views of reality, in and of itself, won't get you banned here. With a little over 10,000 members we have to have a few crazy ones. :confused:

This all said you are welcome to start a thread in the watercooler section to discuss it more or you can just leave. Whatever floats your boat, but this thread should be to discuss the original topic.

[CobbSpikedMe]

==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
==

They are more like incompetent dupes to be honest. They are Professional Authenticators that can't properly authenticate crap. I'm not saying they are in on it, I'm not saying they aren't, but it's clear they can't do their one job.

[slidekellyslide]

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.

Christopher Ladas of East Lansing, Michigan, go f*ck yourself!

[toppcat]

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Go fu** yourself asshole

[pokerplyr80]

Leon in my opinion you should delete this guys posts and quoted responses to them, and ban him from the forum. This is not a good look for your site and reflects poorly on the community if any hobby outsiders stumble upon this thread.

[topcat61]

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Hello! Technically, altering an item without telling the person before purchase can be fraud. Both Doug Allen and Bill Mastro were convicted and sentenced for it along with shill bidding. For now, PWCC is alleged to have, as it appears, shill bid only. Unless the FBI or the Oregon AG get involved and conduct a thorough forensic investigation of the cards and computers, PWCC doesn't have to respond to anyone. In fact they could make a case against those accusers if they wanted -and I only say that since it looks like they have 50-400 million reasons to do so. It is up to the individuals who believe they were targeted or swindled to open a complaint with law enforcement. In the meantime, keep collecting evidence, build up a case and bring it to court if it's warranted, but I recommend net54 not bringing up the word -fraud, instead using the word "alleged" will bolster your case if you all decide upon it.

I'm just trying to look out for my fellow collectors best interests on net54 is all.

[bnorth]

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.

PLEASE IGNORE THE TROLL. Chances are it is just someone trying to get this thread to go poof.:)

[Mark17]

Christopher Ladas of Michigan, go f*ck yourself!

Yeah, I had a moment of anger reading his posts too, but then realized he's just a troll looking for reactions to amuse himself. Ignore him and he'll drift off to annoy others.

And I've known some hillbillies..... he's too stupid to be one of them.

[slidekellyslide]

Yeah, I had a moment of anger reading his posts too, but then realized he's just a troll looking for reactions to amuse himself. Ignore him and he'll drift off to annoy others.

And I've known some hillbillies..... he's too stupid to be one of them.

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

[Leon]

Generally I think we should let members hang themselves. I think I can handle his lawyer. :) But he does need to go to another thread. If he pollutes this one there will only be 17 other threads like it on the front page.


My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

[Mark17]

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

[slidekellyslide]

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

I don't think so...he thought he was anonymous when he made that post. Leon put his name on there with a period in the middle so it didn't show up in Google. I took the period out and gave his location because this isn't 4chan and he doesn't get to anonymously spew garbage like that here.

[Leon]

Well, he doesn't seem to like to be accountable for what he says. Otherwise he wouldn't care that his name is out here. And Dan, right above here, is correct. I did the same name scramble I do for all members who have their name put out here but if another moderator, or someone else, wants to put it out here without scrambling it, it is their call.
I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

[steve B]

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

I can't think of any thing with the combination of the number of items plus the amount of money.

Art /antiques of course has occasional frauds, which can run into the millions for one item. But usually not so many items. I'm not sure about the hobby lobby artifacts thing, but it's probably close.

I've heard there's a lot of altered/fake coins out of China lately, probably equal, but the scammers are international and smarter about covering their tracks.

There were a few stamp guys on Ebay doing similar stuff, hundreds of items. But their stuff was usually pretty inexpensive. I bought a bad stamp, but it was only about $20. (They ruined a pretty nice 60 cent stamp)
And of course, Fox, Sperati, and Fournier were very prolific.

Even some major collections are auctioned under clever names. Sometimes the collectors name comes out after, sometimes not. If the collector is well known, it can be a plus.

[Misunderestimated]

What can be seen ?
This is from the pre-TPG days:
Seriously, can you tell if the wax was removed... The other stuff -- bleaching, trimming (maybe erasing) can be visible if it effects the surface ...

I know that bleaching cracker jack cards was obvious sometimes (the 1914s especially) ...

If I have the "before and after" sure I can tell something is wrong but what if I just have the "after" ?
Isn't this what the graders/authenticators are dealing with?
===
Also -- even Alex Jones himself disowned that conspiracy stuff when he was put under oath. (He said that it was his own personal psychosis or something):mad:

[steve B]

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Most of my family is from that general area.
Many of them are first responders or are in education.
They ALL knew someone personally who was involved in one way or another, although thankfully none were directly involved.
One person did have their school host a class or two from sandy hook afterwards since the school wasn't usable and education had to go on.
The first responders were called in to provide services normally covered by the local first responders.

Anyone who believes this rubbish about it being fake has got some serious mental problems.

[barrysloate]

Leon in my opinion you should delete this guys posts and quotes responses to them, and ban him from the forum. This is not a good look for your site and reflects poorly on the community if any hobby outsiders stumble upon this thread.

Leon- I have to agree with this post by Jesse. There's no crime in being an idiot- there are idiots under every rock. But this is a terrible look for the board. People come here to relax and get away from this stuff. It really should be deleted and the poster banned.

He's already hung himself so it's time to move on. At least consider getting rid of this garbage.

[swarmee]

If I have the "before and after" sure I can tell something is wrong but what if I just have the "after" ?

PSA IS BEING PAID UP TO $5,000 PER CARD TO DO THIS. If they claim they can detect it, and they have a Grade Guarantee, and their President's mantra was "NEVER GET CHEATED," wouldn't you think they should be able to actually do this?

[midmo]

We on Net54, often fall into the trap of thinking we are a large piece of the collecting world. I can't tell you how many times I've had people buy tobacco cards from me and I ask if they're a member of Net 54 and they look at me very confused and ask "what?" Hopefully some take my advice and join, but we are a small percentage of collectors to be sure.

100% agree. In the last few years I've been to shows all over the country (St Louis, Kansas City, Chicago, Atlantic City, White Plains NY, Strongsville OH, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, etc) as an attendee or dealer. I've probably met 50 or so Net54 members, but countless people who had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned Net54. Most recently at Leon's Texas show I had conversations with a few advanced collectors that had not heard about the bogus signed T206s because they don't read message boards. It might be tough to get this info out to the masses.

[Rich Klein]

This was not on the original album but was in the movie. And after reading Net 54 and Blowout for the past week. I'm feeling like we all need to listen to this message. Yes, I know where it is from but the message is what I'm going for here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YsOhmMzgac

[mark evans]

Leon- I have to agree with this post by Jesse. There's no crime in being an idiot- there are idiots under every rock. But this is a terrible look for the board. People come here to relax and get away from this stuff. It really should be deleted and the poster banned.

He's already hung himself so it's time to move on. At least consider getting rid of this garbage.

I agree. This joker needs to be banned.

[kateighty]

This is exactly why I left this forum for a few years. The drama gets out of control. I was 30 when I first became a member here. As a history nerd whose dad was into baseball I randomly got into collecting pre-war cards and joined. I've learned a ton and have mostly been encouraged to be part of this great community. Then there's posts like those above. If I read this nonsense back in 2013 I wouldn't have joined.

Again, could we maybe start a separate sub-forum (whatever it's called) for the recent PWCC etc. stuff? We're all here because we have a shared passion. Fraudsters and trolls shouldn't get in the way of that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is exactly why I left this forum for a few years. The drama gets out of control. I was 30 when I first became a member here. As a history nerd whose dad was into baseball I randomly got into collecting pre-war cards and joined. I've learned a ton and have mostly been encouraged to be part of this great community. Then there's posts like those above. If I read this nonsense back in 2013 I wouldn't have joined.

Again, could we maybe start a separate sub-forum (whatever it's called) for the recent PWCC etc. stuff? We're all here because we have a shared passion. Fraudsters and trolls shouldn't get in the way of that.

IMO ignoring fraud only perpetuates it and makes it more likely you'll be a victim. I get the sentiment that I just want to enjoy the hobby, but fraudsters make that very difficult at most levels of collecting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14728131&postcount=2463

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14728635&postcount=2465

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14728061&postcount=2460

[swarmee]

You should label the threads you post the links to. If you say something like "ALTERED OLD JUDGE FROM PSA 5(MK) to PSA 6" it might lead people to click them... ;-)

[Peter_Spaeth]

You should label the threads you post the links to. If you say something like "ALTERED OLD JUDGE FROM PSA 5(MK) to PSA 6" it might lead people to click them... ;-)

Yeah. What might make more sense is a single thread with links to all the bad cards but I don't have the wherewithal to pull that off.

[perezfan]

Any person would have to quit their day job, in order to properly label this endless stream of frauds.

It’s overwhelming and is making me question whether PSA is even examining these cards. I think in many cases it’s a quick glance, and they’ll take your hard-earned money. What a pathetic scam so many collectors have bought into. :(

[Steve D]

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

Exactly!

Say you submit a card that ends up in the hands of the G.O.D. on a bad day, and it gets graded harshly. Shouldn't you be able to resubmit it to get the grade it should have?

We all know this has happened many times; a card is submitted and it gets a 7. The person knows damned well that the card deserves a 9, so he resubmits it. It ultimately gets graded correctly as a 9.

That is a problem I see in all this commotion right now. A card was initially submitted, and got a 3. It was resubmitted and now, it's a 5. Which one is actually correct? The 3 could have been from the G.O.D. on a bad day, in which case, the 5 is correct.

I am not saying that all of this is simply "much ado about nothing"; not in the slightest. I believe certain individuals have been gaming the system; but, people have been gaming the system for decades upon decades. This isn't a new thing. It needs to be stopped and fixed, but the hobby will go on.

Steve

[kateighty]

IMO ignoring fraud only perpetuates it and makes it more likely you'll be a victim. I get the sentiment that I just want to enjoy the hobby, but fraudsters make that very difficult at most levels of collecting.

I'm not ignoring it! Totally on your side with this crap! I'm simply saying there should be a separate section on this forum for those threads now that it's become so widespread. It's taking away from why we're here. It's likely very discouraging to those considering starting a Net54 account. I'm not sharing my PSA Philly experience because honestly I don't feel comfortable here and that's a problem. That's my choice and I'd hope you'd respect that.

[ullmandds]

I'm not ignoring it! Totally on your side with this crap! I'm simply saying there should be a separate section on this forum for those threads now that it's become so widespread. It's taking away from why we're here. It's likely very discouraging to those considering starting a Net54 account. I'm not sharing my PSA Philly experience because honestly I don't feel comfortable here and that's a problem. That's my choice and I'd hope you'd respect that.

You have to expect that the hottest topic to emerge in the hobby basically in its history has to be discussed ad nauseum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

[swarmee]

1887 N172 Old Judge Timothy Keefe BAT AT READY AT 30 DEGREE

FROM PSA 4

TO PSA 7 HIGHEST GRADED

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14728926&postcount=2469

[swarmee]

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

Why are there any cards still for sale? Doesn't he realize?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why are there any cards still for sale? Doesn't he realize?

Judge him by his actions, not his words.

[Leon]

Judge him by his actions, not his words.

He has been informed. Lets see if he takes it down.

[Fuddjcal]

He has been informed. Lets see if he takes it down.

:D:D:D:D

There is a Seattle slew of them. He ain't taking nuttin down:D:D:D

Turn those machines back on!!!!!!!

[pgconboy]

:D:D:D:D

There is a Seattle slew of them. He ain't taking nuttin down:D:D:D

Turn those machines back on!!!!!!!

The Wagner just got pulled. Not a good sign it was even listed.

[Misunderestimated]

As an aside, whoever "Corndog" is on the other website -- ....Wow ! impressive investigative work.

[kateighty]

You have to expect that the hottest topic to emerge in the hobby basically in its history has to be discussed ad nauseum.

Well of course. It's just dominating everything else! I'm interested in reading all of this but it's getting overwhelming. I do appreciate though what the OGs have been doing in terms of posting the updated lists that might otherwise get lost in the mix. Thanks for that it really is appreciated.

[Bored5000]

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

Of course, Brent's recent video about "conservation" was BS. But pulling that Wagner shows that he does not even believe what he claimed. Why pull a card that had been "conserved" if such conservation is a way to move the hobby forward and not shady in the least?

Edd*e Sm*th

[oldjudge]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1884057]Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14728635&postcount=2465[/i


I break out any slabbed Old Judges I buy and could care less about the grades. Photo clarity is what I care about and last time I checked card doctors haven’t figured out a way to improve that. The guy cleaning the card did a nice job though. I prefer the after to the before.

[Rhotchkiss]

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

I got an email from eBay that this was removed; blowout had it on one of their submission lists but now has provided proof of alteration. I am glad it has been taken down.

BUT- they still have up the T206 Jennings AB 460 that has been altered despite it being called out here and by email. How many more jacked cards remain in PWCC’s current auction? Many I am sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I got an email from eBay that this was removed; blowout had it on one of their submission lists but now has provided proof of alteration. I am glad it has been taken down.

BUT- they still have up the T206 Jennings AB 460 that has been altered despite it being called out here and by email. How many more jacked cards remain in PWCC’s current auction? Many I am sure.

BO says a list coming today.

[Rhotchkiss]

Nice. Thanks

[Bpm0014]

As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair.

This clown is so much more intelligent than all of us but cant spell THEIR correctly....

[jchcollins]

How about a card - I think this is misgraded; there is no way this is altered. SGC blew it! the tape holding the card together was most definitely put on in the Croft’s factory, in 1909 and sold like this.

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

[Leon]

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

[jchcollins]

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it. :(

[commishbob]

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it. :(



This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.

[bobbyw8469]

Well of course. It's just dominating everything else! I'm interested in reading all of this but it's getting overwhelming. I do appreciate though what the OGs have been doing in terms of posting the updated lists that might otherwise get lost in the mix. Thanks for that it really is appreciated.

Agreed. The word "overwhelming" is an understatement.

[jchcollins]

This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.

In my case, it was an altered card - I know because I'm the one who did the altering. When I was younger and more foolish, I removed a stain on the corner of my '56 Mantle that I have had since I was 14. Because I'm an amateur and not a card doctor - what I actually did was to trade the stain for paper loss on that corner. All these years later I don't really care - I did it to make the card look better for ME (it does, and was not high-grade to begin with...) and have no intent to ever sell it or try to commit some type of fraud. The card is sentimental to me and normally raw cards like that stay exactly that way in my collection - but I did want this particular one in a slab for later when it's passed down to my girls. I had submitted to SGC more than a decade ago, not having any clue at that time about alterations and the protocol there - and of they of course did not grade it, sent it back rejected due to "questionable color" on that corner. It's not really color, but just the underlying card stock showing through. For what it is worth, I've seen other cards with similar paper loss in mid-grade numbered holders with both PSA and SGC - but again since I had no intentions to sell the card - I didn't care. Finally got around to it and sent it off late last year and requested just "A", which SGC obliged. I had the card back in less than a week.

[steve B]

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

In actual practice, SGC uses A for any card they won't give a number grade even if it isn't altered. It's possible to choose A or just getting a card back unslabbed. When it isn't slabbed, you actually get an explanation.

This one has very rough factory cuts top and bottom. I was a bit miffed when it came back, but after some reflection, I can see why they wouldn't slab it. To most people any oddity seems like alterations. (And with the current stuff going on, that isn't likely to change)

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=5054

Out of the few cards I've had rejected I got
Miscut top and bottom -shown above
Min size - a puzzler, as it's less short than another card in the same group was narrow (a regular card that was very nearly AB narrow.
Trimmed - Yep, actually trimmed on all four borders. picked it in a rush to get one last good looking card to make 10 for a special. Totally blew that one.

[Fuddjcal]

The Wagner just got pulled. Not a good sign it was even listed.

Thanks, That's one! A few hundred more to go and we're home freeeeeeeeeee

[jchcollins]

When it isn't slabbed, you actually get an explanation.


LOL, I will have to look but could swear that is the same handwriting on the rejection slip I originally had for my Mantle. It was some time ago...

[Promethius88]

Out of curiosity, where has all the money gone? Has it all gone to Moser or stayed with PWCC?

[jchcollins]

Out of curiosity, where has all the money gone? Has it all gone to Moser or stayed with PWCC?

Just follow the money...LOL. Isn't that what Deepthroat told Bob Woodward...

[aloondilana]

My latest email to Steve Sloan (Cc: Betsy):

How do you write Steve Sloan an email blaming Brent?

I'm not saying Brent is innocent or guilty, but my god.
PSA is much more at fault than anyone who messed with these cards.

PSA is paid for their service to accurately grade cards.
PSA graded these "trainwrecks" I place all the blame on PSA!

PSA is who put these cards back on the street with a much higher value.

Again, The complete blame is PSA
Either there is a very crooked grader on PSA's payroll or PSA is deeply involved.
Either way, an email to Steve Sloan is kind of laughable.

[jchcollins]

How do you write Steve Sloan an email blaming Brent?

I'm not saying Brent is innocent or guilty, but my god.
PSA is much more at fault than anyone who messed with these cards.

PSA is paid for their service to accurately grade cards.
PSA graded these "trainwrecks" I place all the blame on PSA!

PSA is who put these cards back on the street with a much higher value.

Again, The complete blame is PSA
Either there is a very crooked grader on PSA's payroll or PSA is deeply involved.
Either way, an email to Steve Sloan is kind of laughable.

Agreed. Watch the 30-for-30 short, "Holy Grail." As Keith O. says, "the expertise is the fraud." What expertise? At best if you don't believe they were knowingly complicit in this type of thing - it's sloppy and careless. Joe Blow grader (who we know nothing about, have no qualifications on...) looks at X card for 37 seconds and decides it's a PSA 6 because he cannot see the subtle work that was done to get rid of marks or fix corners from when the card was a PSA 3 or a 4. What is professional or expert about that? Nothing.

[slidekellyslide]

I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.

[aloondilana]

Like button pressed to Mr. Collins message above this

[perezfan]

I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.

If the reason is simply ineptitude, then there is NO reason anyone should be sending them their cards. Any novice could do an equal or better job of grading. At least they could be perceived as competent, if these hundreds of mistakes were intended fraud. Not sure which is worse...

[bounce]

I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.

So you don't think PSA knew who Moser was? Myself and others find that very hard, if not impossible, to believe.

Did they take submissions from him directly? If they did, then they at least knew him as a customer. I suppose they could say they didn't know his reputation, but again that's pretty tough to believe.

If they would not accept submissions from him, then they definitely knew him and his reputation. It then wouldn't have taken much to figure out someone else was submitting on his behalf.

Which one of those is worse? In either scenario, they were looking the other way in some form.

[jad22]

I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.

It's people performing an manual visual inspection. They will miss lots of things until they take out the human element. I agree with you, their eyes probably do glaze over after an hour.

[MULLINS5]

I said this over on BO, but I suspect PSA gave PWCC a quicker service because of their business relationship. The cards were probably mailed directly to someone high up (Orlando, Sloan, etc) and then they handed them over to grading to avoid log time. The grader probably knew it was PWCC and ran the cards through. I feel like it's a matter of PSA mistrusting PWCC. I can't see PSA knowingly grading altered cards or there being someone on the inside participating in criminal activity. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is what I'm going with until more about PSA's involvement comes out. I'm still a customer and will continue to send cards into PSA/DNA for authentication and grading. I was very close to pulling the trigger on a PSA 9 1979 OPC Gretzky on eBay before I knew what was happening and will likely not be buying anything already graded of value for awhile.

[drcy]

I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.

Never been one of the PSA defenders, but I work on the assumption that it is bad grading rather than nefarious intent with PSA.

[Promethius88]

I agree that I don't think that PSA was knowingly involved and I also know there are others that disagree. I do believe that it is a most likely inexperienced, overworked graders that aren't catching the alterations. I also agree that that is not acceptable. That is why I believe PSA is most likely taking their time with any public response. I think in the end they will have to come out and admit to missing these alterations that were done(but will most likely point out how many they caught to help their image) and are probably trying to come up with their best position on how they are going to handle returns(if they do) and how much accountability they will have to accept. Personally, I like that they are waiting as opposed to others involved trying to get out in front and post ridiculous reasoning or doing interviews only digging bigger holes for themselves.
I've read post after post on this, opinion after opinion and I respect everyone's opinion even if I disagree with some. After trying to let this soak in and look at all angles, I have a question or two...some have been briefly touched upon.
As someone mentioned, it's easy, after all of the investigation work to see the before and after of these affected cards so in hindsight we can say that all of this work should have been caught. I also know others have mentioned measuring, blacklights, ect that should be used by TPG's to catch them all.
But, has anyone taken a good look at these cards in person...without having the before pics to look at, and inspected them to see the alterations? I mean, are the actual alterations easy to spot, in hand, if you weren't aware?
I'm personally for TPG's having a pics go along with all cert numbers. I know that would take up a huge amount of space for a company to store them all but would be helpful in the future. Obviously not going to work for the cards already graded but maybe going forward.
Next, and maybe last for now, but does the downfall of the TPG's really do any good? I know, I know, some of you despise them and all they stand for or perceive them to be the anti-Christ, that's fine, I respect your opinion. But on the flipside, we all know alterations and doctoring were going on years before the concept of TPG, hence their creation. That and nobody can agree on the actual grade of a card. But there have to be a lot of cards out there that have been worked on that have not gotten past the graders over the years.
I know the list of bad cards from Moser and others is extensive, but nothing to the extent of stuff that is floating out there from the guys that were altering cards at their kitchen tables in 60's, 70's and 80's or even before that. I would still have more confidence in picking something up slabbed than I might buying it raw at a show from an unknown dealer. Either way it's a gamble, don't get me wrong.
While this is a huge problem, I would like to think it only affects a very small percentage of cards that are in holders today....call me an optimist. Or, you can just call me naive and believe a conspiracy theory that every card submitted is bad and not a single card being slabbed can be trusted. In that case, I don't know why you even collect cards cause it can't be that fun for you.
I will add this, while I collect many other cards, my main focus is the 1962 Jell-O set. Since there are so few collectors and even fewer numerical grades given to cards from that set, I'm pretty confident that all of mine are legit and I don't worry about them at all. You don't worry about a trimmed card when it was made to be cut by hand in the first place!!!
Finally, while I don't have the time or patience to read EVERY post on BO, much appreciation goes out to the person or persons doing the work out there to expose this. Frankly, I don't know how someone would have that much time on their hands to do it, but hats off!

[steve B]

LOL, I will have to look but could swear that is the same handwriting on the rejection slip I originally had for my Mantle. It was some time ago...

It very well could be, that card went through SGC quite a while ago. I just looked at scans I uploaded of other cards in the same batch, and they were graded in either 2009 or 2010.

[steve B]

I'll say it, I don't think PSA isn't directly involved. I haven't seen any claims that the same sort of incompetence is found with submissions from people who aren't altering cards.
Unless by some magic happening, the same grossly incompetent grader gets all the submissions from the trimmers.

If I sent in 100 trimmed cards, I believe most if not all would be caught. Somehow the guys trimming manage to get cards through regularly that don't even meet the min size. My daughter is 8 and I could teach her to reject those.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'll say it, I don't think PSA isn't directly involved. I haven't seen any claims that the same sort of incompetence is found with submissions from people who aren't altering cards.
Unless by some magic happening, the same grossly incompetent grader gets all the submissions from the trimmers.

If I sent in 100 trimmed cards, I believe most if not all would be caught. Somehow the guys trimming manage to get cards through regularly that don't even meet the min size. My daughter is 8 and I could teach her to reject those.

You're just not as good at it. :)

[steve B]

You're just not as good at it. :)

Other than a few hostess cards when I was a kid, I haven't done that. I still have them, but I doubt they'd grade, my pocketknife was pretty dull... :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the reason is simply ineptitude, then there is NO reason anyone should be sending them their cards. Any novice could do an equal or better job of grading. At least they could be perceived as competent, if these hundreds of mistakes were intended fraud. Not sure which is worse...

Rock and a hard place. Not sure which I am rooting for honestly.

[barrysloate]

I don't think PSA was a part of any nefarious scheme, but I haven't ruled out the possibility of a rogue grader. This is pure speculation, but with so much money to be made so easily, by merely bumping the grade of a card, you can't assume it's impossible.

A half grade bump on a high grade 52T Mantle will put both of your kids through four years of college. In what other industry can that much money be made so effortlessly?

[swarmee]

How do you write Steve Sloan an email blaming Brent?

Investigative technique to see who will flip on who first. I wanted him to put pressure on PWCC to END ALL THEIR CURRENT AUCTIONS before PSA's liability continues to increase by more sales of altered cards in PSA slabs.