Collecting Woodcuts - where to start?

[mouschi]

I had a fun idea to supplement my card collection with woodcuts - especially of those players whose cards may be exceedingly difficult to obtain. I feel like I'm in the middle of an ocean though, trying to research everything, so I would love some help / advice.

What all is out there for baseball fans to collect? Are there things other than "woodcuts" that are similar? What "key" issues are there? What about these hardcover bound "Harper's Monthly books"?

I also heard that they are basically all original works of art since there weren't printing presses back then.

So anyway, anyone who is willing to shed some light on this entire sect of collecting would be greatly appreciated!

[darwinbulldog]

The Jim Creighton memorial one is the best of the bunch, and even that generally goes for under $1000 except for the very nicest examples. But somebody lied to you about Johannes Gutenberg.

[darwinbulldog]

The 1869 Red Stockings and early Cap Anson woodcuts always seemed like a bargain to me.

[drcy]

Start looking for Harper's woodcuts on eBay.

They did have printing presses in the 1800s, but the pictures were 'handcarved' so are original artworks.

Nearly all the graphics in 1800s (1890s started to covert to modern reproductive methods) were handmade prints, so that includes business cards, trade cards, books, newspaper, magazines, Reach and Spalding guides, posters, programs. The Reach and Spalding guides have some excellent woodcuts.

But the Harper's is a great place to start, and lots of them to collect and they're high quality. You can find the pages or the entire magazines.

[bgar3]

Agree Harpers is a good place to start, but I think you will find the nice early baseball images are from Harper’s Weekly, not the monthly. Leslie’s and the New York Clipper are also excellent sources.
Something to consider would be to find the dates of the images you are interested in and then see if you can find that full issue listed, even if it doesn’t reference baseball.

[mouschi]

Excellent idea! Do you know if there is a list somewhere? Agree Harpers is a good place to start, but I think you will find the nice early baseball images are from Harper’s Weekly, not the monthly. Leslie’s and the New York Clipper are also excellent sources.
Something to consider would be to find the dates of the images you are interested in and then see if you can find that full issue listed, even if it doesn’t reference baseball.

[drcy]

Then someday you can collect the complete set of original Albrecht Durer woodcuts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_woodcuts_by_D%C3%BCrer)

[bgar3]

Here is a starter list for Cincinnati.
July 3, 1869. Harper’s. Cincinnati team
July 24, 1869. Harper’s. Giant bat
July 2, 1870. Harper’s. Cincinnati batting against Atlantic’s.
If you see one you like somewhere, check the top to see if
There is a date and then compile a list. There is at least one great collector of woodcuts on this site, he probably has a list or has already posted it.

[clydepepper]

Excellent idea! Do you know if there is a list somewhere?



Yes. The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards by Lew Lipset.

[Exhibitman]

One other thing to consider are etchings. Many books of the era used etchings as illustrations. Early boxers are often only available in career contemporary form in such book plates.

[brianp-beme]

Not my area of expertise, but here is a list I found searching the web, I believe compiled by a current Net54 member D.Goodman, that includes known Harper's Weekly woodcuts.

Brian


I love the Harper's woodcuts, as well as those from Leslie's. Here is the checklist I use for HW. As many of you know, there is a pictorial checklist of many Harper's woodcuts in issue #14 of the Vintage & Classic Baseball Collector (VCBC) from Jan/Feb 1998.

I have incorporated the VCBC checklist into my own :

date - page - VCBC# - Illustration Description
10/15/59 - 664/665 - 1 - A BB Match at The Elysian Fields, Hoboken
10/15/59 - 660 - x - English Cricketeers - The Eleven of England
10/22/59 - 688 - x - Cricket
03/23/61 - cover - 2 - Abner Doubleday is in a picture of soldiers at Ft Sumter
11/18/65 - 733 - 3 - BB Match between Athletics and Atlantics
11/25/65 - 741 - 4 - Champion Nine Atlantic BBC of Brooklyn
11/03/66 - 697 - 5 - Brooklyn Atlantics vs Phil. Athletics / Champ 9 of Atlantic BBC
12/08/66 - 775 - x - Base-ball Illustrated (cartoons)
08/03/67 - 488/489 - x - The College Regatta and Ball Match at Worcester, MA 7-19-1867
10/26/67 - 684 - 6 - Champion Nine - Union Club - Morrisania NY (1/2 page)
05/16/68 - cover - 7 - George Sands - cover
09/12/68 - 587 - x - The National Game (cartoon)
10/03/68 - 636 - x - Cricket
07/03/69 - 421 - 8 - Picked Nine of Red Stocking Club of Cincinnati Ohio (1/2 page)
07/24/69 - 477 - 9 - Presentation Of Championship Bat to Red Stockings
07/02/70 - 424/425 - 10 - BB match between Red Stockings and Atlantics (1/2 page)
06/27/74 - 536 - 11 - International Baseball - The Boston Champions
07/25/74 - 624 - 12 - International Baseball - The Philladelphia Athletics
09/05/74 - 733 - 13 - Base-Ball in England Red Stocking vs Athletics
09/12/74 - 756 - 14 - Match of Red Stockings and Athletics
09/12/74 - 761 - 15 - Maple Leaf BBC
10/03/74 - 819 - x - The Great Game of Political Baseball - Tally 1 for Maine (cartoon)
07/27/78 - 588 - 16 - BB at Blackville - 1st blood for Black Legs (cartoon)
10/19/78 - ??? - x - Cricket match 9 X 14
11/01/79 - 865 - x - International Crickett Match at Philadelphia
05/14/81 - 320 - 17 - Princeton College BB Nine
08/05/82 - 493 - 18 - The Metropolitan Nine (1/2 page)
09/30/82 - 621 - 19 - The Providence BBC
10/14/82 - 652 - 20 - The Chicago BBC
04/14/83 - 240 - x - Another field of American Industry invaded by the Chinese
05/12/83 - 292 - 21 - The New BB Grounds at Chicago
06/09/83 - 364 - 22 - Baseball of the Future
10/13/83 - 653 - 23/24 - BB Champions of 1883 / Boston BBC
01/26/84 - 64 - x - Base-Ball on Skates, Washington Park, Brooklyn
07/19/84 - 471 - x - A Base-Ball Episode (cartoon)
05/02/85 - 279 - x - A Sound Base-ist (cartoon - somewhat baseball related)
05/16/85 - 312 - 25 - Champion BB Players (early all-star team?)
06/06/85 - 359 - x - A Moment of Excitement (cartoon)
08/22/85 - 549 - 26 - The Winning Run, How is it Umpire? (Chi vs NY)
10/17/85 - 684 - 27 - Chicago BBC w/Anson & Kelly (1/2 page)
05/08/86 - 300 - 28 - A Double Play- First League Game (NY vs Bos)
05/15/86 - 309 - 29 - New Metropolitan BB Grounds on Staten Island (1/2 page)
09/25/86 - ??? - x - International Crickett Match at Nicetown, PA
04/02/87 - 243 - x - A New Lucrative Profession Discovered (cartoon)
05/21/87 - 372 - x - Well Grounded (cartoon)
05/28/87 - 389 - x - A Spring Auction in Rural PA - A Game Of Ball (cartoon)
06/04/87 - 411 - x - Off His Base (cartoon)
09/03/87 - 639 - x - The National Game (cartoon)
09/10/87 - 648/649 - 30 - Thrown Out At Second (very dramatic action) (dbl page)
10/29/87 - 787 - x - Impressions Of Our Base-Ball Artist (cartoon)
10/29/87 - 791 - x - A Bad Defeat (cartoon)
11/26/87 - 859 - x - A Base-Ball Game on the Haight Street Grounds - SF
06/23/88 - 455 - 31 - The Base-ball Championship Cup
07/28/88 - cover - 32 - A Ball or a Strike, Which? (cover) (fantastic scene)
09/01/88 - ??? - x - BB Craze - Climax at Polo Grounds
09/15/88 - 699 - x - The Ruling Passion (cartoon)
10/13/88 - 783 - x - A Matter of Environment (cartoon)
10/20/88 - 793 - 33 - Winning Battery of NY Team (1/2 pg) Keefe & Ewing (both HOF)
10/27/88 - 820 - 34 - 2 Popular St Louis Players (1/2 page) (Comiskey & Latham)
01/12/89 - cover - x - Farmer Stebbins at the Bat (cover)
04/27/89 - 328 - 35 - The 1st League Game of Base-Ball of the Season
06/08/89 - 464 - x - Injured (cartoon)
06/22/89 - 493 - x - The Newhalls, The Great American Cricketeers
06/22/89 - 508 - 36 - The National Game ( comic )
08/31/89 - 704/705 - 37 - A Collegiate Game of BB (dbl page)
10/12/89 - 820 - x - In a time to come (cartoon)
10/19/89 - 838 - x - Nota Bene, Boston (cartoon)
11/09/89 - cover - 38 - William 'Buck' Ewing - Captain of NY Club (cover)
03/08/90 - 185 - 39 - A game of BB in the 13th Armory, Brooklyn
05/03/90 - 353/356 - 40 - Opening of 1890 BB Season (2 pages, both sides)
08/30/90 - 687 - x - A Strictly Amateur Nine (cartoon)
04/18/91 - 287 - x - The Social Ball Rolls Out as the National Game Comes In
06/13/91 - 448 - x - Princeton and Yale Team Pix
09/26/91 - 720 - 41 - Manhattan Athletic Club Grounds
10/10/91 - 786 - x - "No Muff this time" - Boston Championship 1891 (cartoon)
07/07/94 - ??? - x - College BB player pix
07/28/00 - 706 - x - Page #706 is baseball cartoons
05/31/02 - ??? - <11> - International Champions - Boston Champions (reprint of 6/27/1874)
05/02/08 - cover - x - Cover is a pitcher

These are every picture or cartoon, referencing baseball or cricket, that I have been able to find in Harper's Weekly pre-1900. I would be curious to see a similar list from Leslie's if anyone has compiled one.

[mouschi]

Thank you guys! This is a big help - I do have some incoming now. Not sure how I'll feel about them when they are in hand, but on the web, they look amazing at least! :)

[aquarius31]

The previous list for Harper's Weekly is accurate although it wouldn't surprised me if there are other woodcuts out there. I believe there are a few of the Harper's woodcuts which are undocumented as I've come across them in online searches but have never been able to find the original. They likely came from a regional supplement that was added by the publisher.

I agree with previous posts re starting with the Harper's list and collect what you find appealing vs what some would consider rare. I guess the Creighton woodcut is an exception as it's uncommon and arguably the most beautiful baseball woodcut. I don't have a comprehensive list on the Leslie's side but here are some that I had documented some time back. Some oft the titles are clearly not exact.

07/01/65 – Frank Leslie's – Grand Match between Athletics and Resolute Club
08/26/65 – Frank Leslie's – Baseball Match for the Championship
11/04/65 – Frank Leslie's – Atlantic vs Eckford Clubs of Brooklyn
07/21/66 – Frank Leslie's – The Officers of the National Association of Baseball
07/17/69 – Frank Leslie's – Cincinnati Red Stockings
07/25/74 – Frank Leslie's – Full page showing Boston and Athletics Team
05/19/83 - Frank Leslie's The sports of the season - baseball and its pleasures
10/14/82 - Frank Leslie's - The Chicago BBC
06/06/85 – Frank Leslie's – The Chicago BBC
10/10/85 – Frank Leslie's– ½ page “Struggle for the Championship at Chicago”
05/08/86 – Frank Leslie's– Tim Keefe being carried off Opening Day
07/10/86 – Frank Leslie's – New York Baseball Club including Jim Mutrie
09/01/88 - Frank Leslie's - Baseball Craze
05/02/89 – Frank Leslie's– “Scenes at the Polo Ground”
09/07/89 – Frank Leslie's– John Ward ¼ page woodcut
08/29/91 – Buck Ewing cover in action
10/13/92 – Cap Anson and others photographic premium

[tedzan]

I discovered this "oldie-but-goodie" in a quaint Antique shop in the New Jersey Pine Barrens 12 years ago. This Harper's Weekly original
print is almost 150 years old and is in fantastic condition.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/aharrywrightbigbat.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/aharpersweekly7241869.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[mouschi]

Does anyone know how many of some of these were made?

[drcy]

Does anyone know how many of some of these were made?

Identifying Antique Commercial Printing Processes, And the Basics of Authenticating Antique and Art Prints (https://www.amazon.com/Identifying-Commercial-Printing-Processes-Authenticating/dp/1312883286)

Woodcuts are one of the old forms of printing.

[mouschi]

Identifying Antique Commercial Printing Processes, And the Basics of Authenticating Antique and Art Prints (https://www.amazon.com/Identifying-Commercial-Printing-Processes-Authenticating/dp/1312883286)

Woodcuts are one of the old forms of printing.

Thanks! Sorry, I meant how *many* there are. Cool looking book though, I'll check it out!

[drcy]

As they are from a popular magazine, they are fairly plentiful. You can find them in antique stores, etc.

As mentioned, one of the great thing about Harper's Woodcuts is they cover more than just baseball. There are football, politics, history, culture, etc. Lots of great stuff.

[bcbgcbrcb]

A number of years ago, Lew Lipset ran an auction lot for a scrapbook of NY Clipper baseball woodcuts. If memory serves me correctly, there were maybe 50 or so individual baseball subjects, including numerous HOF’ers. This was the nicest assembly of woodcuts I have ever seen all together. If you do some online research, you might be able to find the old listing, I was fortunate enough to see it in person and was the underbidder but never got to own it.

The Leslie’s Illustrated examples are also very nice and quite scarce. There was also a St. Louis publisher that did several, mostly ball players from the local team, Comiskey, etc.

[mouschi]

Cool, I'd love to see them - thanks for the heads up, I may just search for them later!

[bgar3]

Phil is correct about the beautiful N.Y. Clipper woodcuts, beautiful.
I think there is a 2 volume fairly
recent publication that contains most, if not all of them.
Here Is Chadwick, I have Spalding just no photo right now.

[mouschi]

Phil is correct about the beautiful N.Y. Clipper woodcuts, beautiful.
I think there is a 2 volume fairly
recent publication that contains most, if not all of them.
Here Is Chadwick, I have Spalding just no photo right now.

Sweet! What's the Chadwick from? Do you know?

[minibatsman]

Wod cuts. I have been collecting news paper for years. especially wood cuts I framed a few . A 1869 red stockings is one. they look great. I didn't want to bend or cut the paper. so I framed the entire page. Cool Baseball team and a paddle Boat. The ones that have actual color do sell. The ones someone colored ? One day they may actually go up in value. You buying one helps?.

News paper. Knute Rockne's last collage game. Both sides of the full page is showing. big papers back then.
Guys in Old leather helmets going at it cool. has several teams . great graphics color. names off the players
They look really good. I buy them as I find them. Wood cuts only in excellent condition. there available. Dollar value not much. I got a couple hundred dollars in the frames. On $10 dollar news papers. I really like them . that's all that matters.
Store them properly . Don't handle them . If you do your probably causing damage of some kind.

[bgar3]

The Chadwick is from the New York Clipper

[bcbgcbrcb]

Yes, the Chadwick is much larger (more like a full page) than the late 1870's-early to mid-1880's standard NY Clipper baseball player images which were more like a 1/4 page or so.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here's a link to an Amazon listing of Lew Lipset's old book which pictures most/all of the baseball player woodcuts from the NY Clipper paper:

https://www.amazon.com/New-York-Clipper-Woodcuts-1879-1880/dp/B003KDE5NC

Probably a good pick-up for the $15.00 plus shipping if you are considering collecting/searching for these originals. The cover subject is a good representation of what you would be looking at for each individual ball player.

[brianp-beme]

Perhaps this is the Old Judge auction listings that Phil mentioned.

http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/200811/new-york-clippers/

Brian

[aquarius31]

Those are some great early images from the NY Clipper. I’m not aware however of individual player photos and associated bios in the NY Clipper before 1870. Pre 1870 would have been primarily ‘games in progress’ woodcuts with individual photos, team photos (front page) mostly in 1870’s-1880s. I do have an extensive Clipper scrapbook depicting 10-15 players but definitely not the one that Phil is referencing.

The individual player woodcuts are unique to the NY Clipper. Yes there are a handful in Harper’s and Leslie’s along with a few from very obscure publications but nothing like the Clipper in terms of length of its run and subjects (many of which were not HoF).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rob L]

Go after the Creighton first. $700 or less generally. Harpers are easier and generally cheaper.

[bgar3]

Here is the Spalding Clipper, sorry for the delay.
In addition to the old judge publication there is a 2 volume more recent edition, I will try to find details.

[bgar3]

The book I am thinking of is called the, Complete New York Clipper Biographies, and is a Mcfarland publication. I think there is a one volume and 2 volume version.

[mouschi]

Go after the Creighton first. $700 or less generally. Harpers are easier and generally cheaper.

I'd love one for sure! Sadly, I don't see any available atm.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Hey, Brian:

I did a little checking online myself yesterday and came across the offerings that you provided but they are different. The scrapbook that appeared at auction maybe 10 years ago or so was a true scrapbook with individually cut-out pics w/bios still attached for almost all, I recall them being adhered to the scrapbook, two on a page, but I could be off there.

[aquarius31]

Hey, Brian:



I did a little checking online myself yesterday and came across the offerings that you provided but they are different. The scrapbook that appeared at auction maybe 10 years ago or so was a true scrapbook with individually cut-out pics w/bios still attached for almost all, I recall them being adhered to the scrapbook, two on a page, but I could be off there.



Hi Phil,
For comparison purposes, here’s the scrapbook that I own. There are 30-40 subjects with about half baseball. It’s not the one you previously referenced from Lew’s auction but sharing here as I think it’s along the lines of what you mention.355626355627355628355629355630

[bcbgcbrcb]

You’re right, George, something very similar to the one that you have there. I remember King Kelly, Jim O’Rourke, Mickey Welch, Albert Spaulding, Henry Chadwick (oversize)++

[mouschi]

Hi Phil,
For comparison purposes, here’s the scrapbook that I own. There are 30-40 subjects with about half baseball. It’s not the one you previously referenced from Lew’s auction but sharing here as I think it’s along the lines of what you mention.355626355627355628355629355630

How that's cool! I've got to get me one of these! :)

[pitchernut]

Are older Sporting Life newspapers wood cut?

[drcy]

Are older Sporting Life newspapers wood cut?

If that's from the 1800s. should be.

You will also find 1800s 'handmade/original' prints that are copper/steel engravings and lithographs.