Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14717612&posted=1#post14717612

As additional interesting cards get outed will link them here.

[ullmandds]

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

I'm clean, so far, LOL, not that it means much.

[h2oya311]

phew! None from that list are in my collection. I did a quick vlookup in excel. Gotta love technology!

[Peter_Spaeth]

oh my
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14717919&postcount=2308

[AddieJoss]

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

[Peter_Spaeth]

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

I can't do better than the explanation in the post.

[Copa7]

Thanks for putting this together.

I'd say its the beginning of the end for PSA, but there will always be suckers (says P. T. Barnum).

But like Maestro, smart people will check and verify. But deep down we knew it's a money grabbing business and PSA are using all hands.

[swarmee]

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards?
Cards submitted by a known trimmer. Highly likely that many/all of these cards are trimmed/altered.

[joshuanip]

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

[Peter_Spaeth]

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

[swarmee]

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards. The most important call I relied on from PSA was whether my card was the same one that came out of a pack or box.

I can assess grade largely on my own. Scanning at 1600DPI, you can see incredible detail along the edges. 10x magnification may be sufficient to rush out a numerical grade, but I’m pretty upset these companies didn’t even try to look closer to evaluate authenticity.

[swarmee]

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.
Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

I know them. At the right time, I will, but they will be impossible to trace IMO. All AH for the most part.

[swarmee]

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.
Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

Nope. Vintage card doctors, of long and honorable duration.

[kateighty]

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14717612&posted=1#post14717612

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.

[nat]

Forgive my ignorance, since I've never sent anything to get graded. But: doesn't PSA have to buy all of these cards back at prices corresponding to the assigned grade? Isn't that their guarantee?

[swarmee]

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

We'll see how many people actually ask. PSA may also have claims over against fraudulent submitters, which would be interesting.

[swarmee]

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

If. If.

[GeoPoto]

If. If.

Focusing on trimming and setting aside (I know it is hard) conspiracy/collusion theories, is it fair to summarize the apparent situation as follows:
(1) PSA has published (or at least alluded to) the practices and procedures it uses to grade every card;
(2) Those practices and procedures include height and width allowances for each type of card -- that is, some amount of deviation bellow an expected height/width is NOT viewed as evidence of trimming;
(3) Blowout/Etc. has established that it is possible to make material improvement in the value of many cards by trimming little enough that the majority (85%) of the cards are still tall/wide enough to avoid being viewed as "trimmed";
(4) Apparently, PSA's existing practices and procedures cannot (or at least do not) detect other evidence of trimming, either because the cutting doesn't leave a trace or PSA's practices and procedures are not comprehensive enough to detect whatever evidence of trimming is available;
(5) The foregoing leads to the conclusion that PSA has to either champion the idea that trimming within its height/width allowances is an acceptable (or at least undetectable) improvement that does not require qualification OR PSA has to explain how it is going to modify its practices and procedures so that trimmed cards can't go undetected.

(Hopefully the "card doctor(s) du jour" will be ostracized/prosecuted and likewise if PSA and/or PWCC (or their employees) were knowingly involved in efforts to conceal/ignore evidence of trimming and sell altered cards without qualification. At the same time,) the next "big picture" event has to happen soon -- PSA has to take a position regarding whether it can detect trimming going forward.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.

[Ben Yourg]

I called PSA,2 days ago.Asking about increased fees,and length
of return time.
They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to
speed up things??

[swarmee]

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

[swarmee]

They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to speed up things??
They did, but MANY of these cards being exposed were graded 3-5 years ago based on their cert numbers. They can't just slough it off on some newbies.

[calvindog]

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

[benjulmag]

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

You may be correct in what you say PSA should do. But I see very little chance of it happening. Based on what this Board has revealed about the number of altered cards, I would think the cost to buy them all back could put PSA out of business. And if in fact what has been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg, the point is only reinforced.

It seems to me that if ever there was a ripe opportunity for another grading company to come into being, or for SGC to make a major marketing move to recoup market share and reduce/eliminate the price gap between comparably graded PSA and SGC cards, this is it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14723725&postcount=2416

[GeoPoto]

Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.

So, the test needs to be 3-dimensional instead of the 2-dimensional test now used. Flattened-then-trimmed cards meet the 2-dimensional test, but with diminished thickness. They will have to measure the thickness of the card, particularly at the edges. This may require new/additional equipment, but should be technologically feasible and, just as important to PSA's business model, economical.

[calvindog]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14723725&postcount=2416

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

[Buythatcard]

Sick list.

It might get to the point that the list of cards not affected will be shorter than the list of affected cards.

[dplath]

I have two of them. Is the recommendation to submit to PSA for grade review? Should I note that the original submission was by a known trimmer?
Thanks,
Dan

[swarmee]

My recommendation to someone else who asked:
https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1308711878&postcount=43&forum=627991

If you bought it through PWCC and it's still in the return window, return it to them ASAP. If they block you from bidding in the future, consider it a plus. If it's outside of the return window (6 months via PayPal, right? maybe longer if you used a credit card), then email PWCC and PSA and see what they'd like you to do. If you didn't buy it through PWCC, work through your original seller and PSA to have it reviewed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

I think he was cut down to just a General.

[swarmee]

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?
It's a new day; PSA's message board post about the scandal has not gone poof. I'm not going away. And although I'm one guy, I scream loudly on message boards. And people are listening.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

[AddieJoss]

I called and spoke to PSA. They stated three will review any card suspected for being altered and review the card, plus any evidence if you have it as well. This is done free of charge. If deemed altered (I know that term is now ambiguous), they will buy it back. With that said, I would prefer to be at the beginning of this line, and not the end. So you can mail them to them if you would like to see how it goes. If anyone does, please share your experience.

Cory Weiser

[swarmee]

The Airing of Grievances: PSA Edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252

[swarmee]

Definitely recommend you try to find proof first before sending back. They will look at the "evidence" of before and after photos.

[Buythatcard]

Suppose you own one of these cards. You won it at an AH or on eBay.
Now, the AH or eBay seller might have bought this card from another AH or seller. Maybe the card was consigned. The AH or eBay seller had no idea that it was altered or doctored in any way. They depended on the expertise of the grading company to confirm its authenticity.

Do you think that the AH or eBay seller is responsible for refunding the buyer? How about the grading company, are they responsible for refunding the buyer?
Or, is the buyer stuck with the card?

[swarmee]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61438795_10161783033070243_596015867251130368_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQlHfi6N1vIhO_iH2pMBS6YQowwmgP2B4IGUHwPLuCY XHP2lYmlKZszpi3SnsSfagWI&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=ae9a105b80f56ef6a306c81e08e554fe&oe=5D50DA06

[calvindog]

They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.

Anyone remember WIWAG? They were not exactly forthcoming then.

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?

[swarmee]

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

[swarmee]

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?
SGC has nothing to provide to the vast majority of PSA's customer base: lower sale values, completely broken pop report and registry, confusing flips, and THEY JUST CLOSED THEIR AUTO AUTHENTICATION ARM. Most people believe that to be because of the T206 auto scandal they and JSA were most heavily involved in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

SGC has nothing to provide to the vast majority of PSA's customer base: lower sale values, completely broken pop report and registry, confusing flips, and THEY JUST CLOSED THEIR AUTO AUTHENTICATION ARM. Most people believe that to be because of the T206 auto scandal they and JSA were most heavily involved in.

Maybe they're better at grading. Starting to look that way to me. And as to sales values, it's at least possible a massive scandal will affect PSA's.

[calvindog]

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

PSA will never make a public announcement that any of the cards featured in Blowout are welcome to be sent back for refunds. They can't afford to. And they're by any measure a historically dishonest company. I've heard a hundred stories in which they've fought to the death before honoring their guarantee. They need to be sued and publicly humiliated/destroyed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA will never make a public announcement that any of the cards featured in Blowout are welcome to be sent back for refunds. They can't afford to. And they're by any measure a historically dishonest company. I've heard a hundred stories in which they've fought to the death before honoring their guarantee. They need to be sued and publicly humiliated/destroyed.

Class action!!! RICO!!!

[swarmee]

Again, if they refuse to, a class action suit can be filed by all the owners of these cards (in absentia). It's not like the lawyers know who all the asbestos victims are in advance.

[calvindog]

Again, if they refuse to, a class action suit can be filed by all the owners of these cards (in absentia). It's not like the lawyers know who all the asbestos victims are in advance.

If only we had a Class Actions lawyer who was willing to Stepin it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If only we had a Class Actions lawyer who was willing to Stepin it.

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

[calvindog]

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

Pfft. If Rule 23 doesn't work, try Rule 24. Try all the damn rules. You're a lawyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pfft. If Rule 23 doesn't work, try Rule 24. Try all the damn rules. You're a lawyer.

If I do that I might end up at Rule 11.

[calvindog]

If I do that I might end up at Rule 11.

PSA won’t dare. Can you imagine the publicity hit they’d take if they tried to dismiss such a suit without rectifying their incompetence? Plus you’d become not only a well-reasoned lawyer (congrats) but also one who does more to fight hobby fraud than 99% of the rest of us.

[Leon]

It is truly inspiring to see those with such lofty moral values posting on the merits of morality and criminality. And such well reasoned responses when they don't text.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA won’t dare. Can you imagine the publicity hit they’d take if they tried to dismiss such a suit without rectifying their incompetence? Plus you’d become not only a well-reasoned lawyer (congrats) but also one who does more to fight hobby fraud than 99% of the rest of us.

That would be elite company.

[Bram99]

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

C'mon Peter. When you tease a topic like that you might as well just give us the story on the Rule 23 requirements. By the way, I will join the class. I don't know if I have any doctored cards, but chances are pretty good since I have over 500 PSA cards in my registry.

Tony

[Bram99]

It is truly inspiring to see those with such lofty moral values posting on the merits of morality and criminality. And such well reasoned responses when they don't text.

Who are you talking about, Leon?

[Leon]

Who are you talking about, Leon?
They know who they are. :)

[mattbojo]

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-Hughie-Jennings-BOTH-HANDS-AMERICAN-BEAUTY-PSA-6-5-EXMT-PWCC/401777738435?hash=item5d8bd1c2c3%3Ag%3A-0EAAOSwtTBc8Ykh&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

[Peter_Spaeth]

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-Hughie-Jennings-BOTH-HANDS-AMERICAN-BEAUTY-PSA-6-5-EXMT-PWCC/401777738435?hash=item5d8bd1c2c3%3Ag%3A-0EAAOSwtTBc8Ykh&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

Wait for it.....


Wait for it.....

whitman111 :mad:

[Rhotchkiss]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Hopefully better than the "conserved" 52T Mantle.

[swarmee]

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020554/based-on-recent-news-are-you-dumping-your-graded-card-collection

Well, this thread didn't last long on the PSA board. Here's a capture in case the thread goes poof.

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection?
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:52AM in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
With all the recent news, what does your crystal ball say for impact in 3-5 years?

Part of me feels the hobby is strong enough to learn, recover and move forward with this being an educational moment.

Another part of me feels that if the FBI gets involved and they uncover the worst case scenario, it can decimate the entire grading industry.

Getting ahead of the curve and dumping now, then moving into another area (BBCE boxes, CGC comics, etc.) might be a shrewd move, but it could save 10s of thousands in the long run.

How will you be managing your collection?

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection? 16 votes
Yes, dumping my graded cards and getting out forever. This will change the industry forever.
6% 1 vote
No, it is short-term issue and will actually make the hobby stronger.
43% 7 votes
Yes, dumping graded cards and moving into other areas of collecting, such as comic, sealed boxes, etc.
6% 1 vote
Who cares - it is just a hobby! Stop being paranoid!
43% 7 votes
Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 287 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:59AM edited June 1, 2019 10:59AM
None of the poll choices fit me. I thought briefly about dumping, I’m not, but not because I believe either that it’s short term or that it’ll strengthen the hobby.

Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set

Also collecting:
1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
1974 Topps Red Sox
Andre Tippett

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:09AM edited June 1, 2019 11:13AM
I would never give up the hobby I love because of this situation. Card collecting is more than just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Nothing could ever make me stop collecting, except maybe my wife holding a pair of pliers, but outside of that, nothing will ever keep me from enjoying this hobby.

Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
None of the poll choices fit me so no vote.

Answer to question hell no. Got lots of cards on deck ready to grade.

SdubSdub Posts: 707 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
If your just figuring out now that hucksters have been doctoring cards for centuries, then you should stay out of this great hobby. Be aware of what your buying and the risks involved, and admit to yourself that there are lots of slabbed vintage cards in all grades that have been "conserved" from ALL the TPG's. And most importantly, if you can't afford to have your slabbed card lose half it's value or more, then put your money somewhere else. Just my two cents.

Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:50AM
Some of these reactions are eye opening. Thanks for posting.

Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
erikthredderikthredd Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:55AM edited June 1, 2019 11:58AM
Most of my graded collection is from subbing my own raw cards that I spent hours upon hours comparing and searching thru ebay listings until I found the right card that I would be happy with regardless of what grade PSA eventually gives it. I don't grade often but when I do it's mostly just to get those handpicked cards slabbed & preserved. I have no plans to stop collecting entirely because of what's been going on but I can understand where many people are unhappy with everything and don't blame them for losing faith in that market while deciding to get out now.

Eric

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:57AM edited June 1, 2019 11:59AM
This is an atrocious poll. The options are just stupid. No option for me. I won't be buying anymore PSA or BGS graded cards because their process is clearly the antithesis of what they claim to do, ie it's a complete failure of mission statement. I'll dump a lot of my graded stuff and keep some PC stuff for regrading when there is a trustworthy TPG option.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
1970s1970s Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:04PM
Got out of graded cards years ago because of all the uncut sheets that flooded the market through the mastronet auctions. I knew many of those would find their way into holders, and they did. But I do still collect graded, but not as much as I used to. Much smaller now. But when I do buy graded cards, I look for properly sized cards in scans, and cards that are not 1/16th inch smaller. There are MANY beautiful, unaltered cards resting in PSA 9 and 10 holders that are absolute beauties. You just have to know which ones are good, and which ones aren't. Just think of how many beautiful 1952 Topps cards are in PSA 9 holders that came from the Mr. Mint Massachusettes find. There are many MINT vending and wax beauties resting in holders today that are absolutely 100% good. Just keep your eye out for the short cards in holders. TPG has not done a good enough job with this.

ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:08PM
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

Andy

CommemKingCommemKing Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:18PM
Did I miss something? I haven't heard any troubling news. Post me a link or something please.

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection (Retired)

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection II

perkdogperkdog Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:19PM
I stopped buying graded cards a while ago, it had a lot to do with being able to enjoy my cards more in raw form and not stressing about resale value. Inconsistent grading didn’t help matters much either, regardless of what comes of this new “Epidemic” I think the hobby will drive on

hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:23PM
Nope. Collector only. Though I am a bit disappointed, though not shocked, by what appears to be systemic collusion between a few parties in pursuit of the almighty dollar while also conning buyers and collectors. But that happens anytime big bills are involved.

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:38PM edited June 1, 2019 12:39PM
@ahopkins said:
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:39PM
You wouldn't know there's any trouble. I just lost an auction on Ebay for a PSA Joe Louis card. We fought like animals at the end for it. I got stomped.

nam812nam812 Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:55PM
This is a silly poll that assumes everyone knows what "news" you re talking about.

My 1910 Champions T218 set at 100% with a GPA of 5.047, and all 153 cards are scanned.
ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 1:05PM
@sportscardtheory said:

show previous quotes
You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

I'm going to take the high road on this one. Thanks for your insightful evaluation.

Andy

AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 229 mod June 1, 2019 1:07PM
This one is already heading down a path I don't care for, so I am going to wrap it up here.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL I am surprised it's still up there too.

[Rhotchkiss]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Looks as if a brown spot under the right armpit has been removed. I just emailed PWCC that I believe the card has been altered and used to sit in a psa 4.5 care. I encourage others to do the same

[mattbojo]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.




Pretty card for the grade. Shows like an EX+ example with a light vertical back crease downgrading. Part of an impressive run of ever popular T206 White Borders on the auction block. In total well over 500 examples are displayed, which represents the majority of an entire set. One of nearly 20,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 7th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.


See the second sentence from the PWCC desciption of the PSA 4 Jennings above. Now see the current description of the PSA 6.5:

Marvelous T206 American Beauty Jennings on the market this month. This card is beautifully preserved with smooth edges, outstanding centering and four sharp corners. Boasts fantastic surfaces with bright color and gorgeous clarity. The single finest example in existence. Deserving of serious attention. One of over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.

Thread: Cross posting list of potentially bad cards Reply to Thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

[swarmee]

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14725942&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

[bnorth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14725942&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

WOW!!! There are a ton of T206s on that list including cheap lower grade cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14725942&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

[bnorth]

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

I believe that should read. If you bought cards from PWCC.:)

[Kenny Cole]

Yeah. I lucked out too. WOW.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah. I lucked out too. WOW.

Virtual high five.

[Bored5000]

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

Oh, ****. I have a card on that list. It is an expensive card to me. :(

[Peter_Spaeth]

mispost

[1880nonsports]

low grade and lower value N28's submitted and graded
followed on a later sub by:

27898967 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike 'King' Kelly PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898968 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike King Kelly PSA 5.5 EX+ (PWCC)
27898969 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Charles Comiskey PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898970 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898971 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898972 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898973 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC
27898974 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Miss Annie Oakley RIFLE SHOOTER PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)

testing first?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Same card?

[darwinbulldog]

Same card?

Looks like another match.

[Bored5000]

Same card?

I honestly don't know? My Old Tom has two visible spots to the right of his head. The card you showed don't seem to have them, but I admit that I suck at being able to spot the stuff that the investigators over on Blowout can find.

Edit: I see another poster had agreed with you. You may indeed be correct. :(

[Bored5000]

Even before I pulled out my card to look at the cert. number, my heart sank as soon as a I saw Old Tom Morris's name listed. I "knew" the cert numbers were going to match.

I paid $757 for that card. It is the second most expensive card I own. Most of my cards are in the $300-500 range.

Nearly my entire collection are non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. I wasn't naive enough to think that fraud only occurs in five- or six-figure cards or big four sports cards. But it does suck that even relatively inexpensive cards outside the mainstream were targeted. :mad: :(

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like another match.

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even before I pulled out my card to look at the cert. number, my heart sank as soon as a I saw Old Tom Morris's name listed. I "knew" the cert numbers were going to match.

I paid $757 for that card. It is the second most expensive card I own. Most of my cards are in the $300-500 range.

Nearly my entire collection are non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. I wasn't naive enough to think that fraud only occurs in five- or six-figure cards or big four sports cards. But it does suck that even relatively inexpensive cards outside the mainstream were targeted. :mad: :(

Demand a return and when he refuses, post it here.

[mattbojo]

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

A card from this list is currently up for auction on ebay by PWCC:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-Ty-Cobb-RED-PORTRAIT-PSA-4-VGEX-PWCC/352680537796?hash=item521d65eec4%3Ag%3AzP8AAOSw9~N c8ZU8&LH_Auction=1


Anybody able to find a back scan of this card?: I found it, just had to click the right arrow :)

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2017/spring/599/1909-1911-t206-white-border-cobb-portrait-red-background/


Matt Bojorquez

[Bored5000]

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

I see what you are referring to now. I am not a VCP member right now (I have been a member in 30-day increments in the past). Could you tell me what that card sold for as a PSA 2 and when was that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see what you are referring to now. I am not a VCP member right now (I have been a member in 30-day increments in the past). Could you tell me what that card sold for as a PSA 2 and when was that?

7/28/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions w***1 30 $406.00

Gary Moser bought it originally.

[bounce]

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

The PSA 2 was sold to w***1 - that's the Moser code

Sorry to say it, but I think it's a match. The right border is one of a couple things I see that makes me believe it's the same card.

HOWEVER - I don't think it's been trimmed. The corners are still rounded, borders don't seem any shorter to me. I do think it's been cleaned, but possible that's all.

If it were me, I'd keep this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The PSA 2 was sold to w***1 - that's the Moser code

Sorry to say it, but I think it's a match. The right border is one of a couple things I see that makes me believe it's the same card.

HOWEVER - I don't think it's been trimmed. The corners are still rounded, borders don't seem any shorter to me. I do think it's been cleaned, but possible that's all.

If it were me, I'd keep this one.

I would check Brent's description on the original sale could have had wrinkles too that were pressed out, but agree on no trimming. You can find it on his site I believe.

[Bored5000]

7/28/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions w***1 30 $406.00

Gary Moser bought it originally.

Thank you.

[Steve D]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14723725&postcount=2416
Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.


We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g0YAAOSwc7pcoRJb/s-l1600.jpghttps://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6eAAAOSw8X9coRJk/s-l1600.jpg


Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14726711&postcount=2442

[perezfan]

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

[Peter_Spaeth]

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

I think it's genuinely a fluid situation right now and we don't know. The cynic in me says the people spending the big money keep right on glibly spending it, maybe a couple of players face some criminal and or civil liability, and the train gets back on track and rolls on. As my new signature says...

[kateighty]

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

I had a similar reaction. I'll leave it at that!

[steve B]

We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g0YAAOSwc7pcoRJb/s-l1600.jpghttps://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6eAAAOSw8X9coRJk/s-l1600.jpg


Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

Yeah, that one isn't as convincing as most of the others.
I'd need better scans, but I believe the registration is different. And the 7 seems to have marks on the right side above the globes that the 9 doesn't have. (could be recolored, but then why not do the ones at the top? )

[steve B]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14726711&postcount=2442

Gunk removal to me is a really gray area. I've done it once where it worked out, and once where it didn't - T206 I bought because it looked great but had a LOT of greasy soot on the back. Which wasn't really coming off without going way beyond what seemed "right"

It does seem to say a lot that PSA "missed" paper loss on a 6

[steve B]

The description on the Morris is really minimal.

"One of over 15,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots."

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1316003

It's a strange case, I believe they're the same card.
But the new scan shows some surface specks the old scan doesn't.
Maybe a difference between running the scanner with speck removal or not?
The other things I notice are the mark/damage mid right, and the upper left corner.
I can't tell from the scans exactly what's going on there.
It's possible the bit on the right is either paper loss, or nearly paper loss where there's a flap folded over.
The upper right corner looks like it had a tiny crease, or layering that folded over.

If they're folded over layering, folding them back in place would be a somewhat gray area. PSA has done it (see the PSA 8 71 Topps on the postwar side) If the folded over bits looked like leaving them alone would make them fall off, I would probably fold them back into place. (Risky, if they're that bad, folding them back in place can make them come off. )
If they're rebuilt paper loss and a rebuilt corner that's not good.

If it was mine, I'd print the earlier scan, write up what I think was done and just keep that together with the card.
Unless you can get a decent return and find another.

[KingFisk]

I skated for a few days without any, but now have had two PWCC purchases show up on Captain Spaulding's list. Both were low grade Southern Leaguers. I couldn't find any Whitman111 prior purchases of those cards on VCP to do my own detective work, and they aren't obviously worked on (if at all), but it still sucks. I have no plans to sell, but there will always be a taint on them as they sit in my collection. No doubt there are more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This outed sub seemed right up the Board's alley so posting it for reference if anyone wants to check their cards.

27898937 1910 E98 Set Of 30 Honus Wagner BLUE PSA 2.5 GD+ (PWCC)
27898938 1909 E95 Philadelphia Caramel Ty Cobb PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
27898939 1909 E95 Philadelphia Caramel Christy Mathewson PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898940 1911 D304 General Baking Co. Ty Cobb PSA 1.5 FR (PWCC)
27898941 1909 E90-1 American Caramel Cy Young BOSTON PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898942
27898943 1895 N300 Mayo's Cut Plug Cap Anson PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898944 1909-11 T206 Clark Griffith PORTRAIT PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898945 1909-11 T206 Addie Joss PITCHING, SOVEREIGN PSA 3.5 VG+ (PWCC)
27898946
27898947 1909-11 T206 Johnny Evers WITH BAT, CHICAGO ON SHIRT PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898948
27898949 1909-11 T206 Frank Chance RED PORTRAIT PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898950 1909-11 T206 Iron Man McGinnity PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898951 1909-11 T206 Cy Young CLEVELAND, BARE HAND SHOWS PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898952 1909-11 T206 Nap Lajoie PORTRAIT PSA 1 PR (PWCC)
27898953 1909-11 T206 Rube Waddell PORTRAIT PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898954 1909-11 T206 Bill Dahlen BROOKLYN PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898955 1909-11 T206 Addie Joss PITCHING, TOLSTOI PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898956 1909-11 T206 Walter Johnson PORTRAIT PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
27898957 1909-11 T206 Cy Young BARE HAND SHOWS PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898958 1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb BAT OFF SHOULDER, SC FACTORY 42 PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
27898959 1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb RED PORTRAIT, POLAR BEAR PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898960 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898961 1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb BAT ON SHOULDER PSA 2.5 GD+ (PWCC)
27898962 1909-11 T206 Bill O'Hara ST. LOUIS, POLAR BEAR PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898963 1909-11 T206 Ray Demmitt ST. LOUIS, POLAR BEAR PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898964 1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb GREEN PORTRAIT PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898965 1888 N162 Goodwin Champions Fred 'Sure Shot' Dunlap PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898966 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898967 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike 'King' Kelly PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898968 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike King Kelly PSA 5.5 EX+ (PWCC)
27898969 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Charles Comiskey PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898970 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898971 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898972 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898973 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC
27898974 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Miss Annie Oakley RIFLE SHOOTER PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
27898975 1912 T227 Series Of Champions Ty Cobb PSA 3.5 VG+ (PWCC)
27898976 1912 T227 Series Of Champions Ty Cobb PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898977 1915 Cracker Jack Frank 'Home Run' Baker #2 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898978 1914 Cracker Jack George Stovall #11 PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC)
27898979 1921 E121 American Caramel Series Of 80 Ty Cobb MGR. ON FRONT PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898980 1922 E121 American Caramel Series Of 120 Babe Ruth HOLDING BALL PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
27898981 1921 E121 American Caramel Series Of 80 Ty Cobb MGR. ON FRONT PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898982 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth #149 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898983 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898984 1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig #160 PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898985 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898986 1935 National Chicle Football Bronko Nagurski ROOKIE RC #34 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898987 1934 Goudey Lou Gehrig #61 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898988 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898989 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898990 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
27898991 1948 Bowman Warren Spahn SP ROOKIE RC #18 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898992 1949 Bowman Jackie Robinson ROOKIE RC #50 PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
27898993 1949 Bowman Satchell Paige ROOKIE RC #224 PSA 3.5 VG+ (PWCC)
27898994 1948 Leaf Football Sammy Baugh ROOKIE RC #34 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
27898995 1948 Leaf Football Sammy Baugh ROOKIE RC #34 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898996 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson ROOKIE RC #79 PSA 2.5 GD+ (PWCC)
27898997 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson ROOKIE RC #79 PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898998 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson ROOKIE RC #79 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27898999 1948 Leaf Honus Wagner #70 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
27899000 1948 Leaf Warren Spahn ROOKIE RC #32 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27899001 1948 Leaf Joe DiMaggio #1 PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)

[pgconboy]

Here is every card I could find on Ebay that I purchased from PWCC. If any of these pop up and they want to drop any bad news on me... let's hear it.

Ebay # Description
142741092253 1933 Goudey Carl Hubbell #230 SGC 40/3 VG (PWCC)
352319422690 1909 E95 Philadelphia Caramel Eddie Plank PSA 2 GD (PWCC)
352319422562 1909 E90-1 American Caramel Addie Joss PORTRAIT PSA 1 PR (PWCC)
352229720185 1990 Action Packed Update Shannon Sharpe ROOKIE RC #46 PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
401456886496 1955 Topps All-American Don Hutson SP ROOKIE RC #97 PSA 3.5 VG+ (PWCC)
352491895872 1991 Pacific Football Larry Brown ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #575 PSA 9 MINT (PWCC)
401620594019 1989 Pro Set Randall Mcdaniel ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA 9 AUTO #235 PSA 9 MINT (PWCC)
352491894929 1984 Topps Football Dwight Stephenson ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #129 PSA 7 (PWCC)
352491894850 1984 Topps Football Howie Long ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #111 PSA 8(pd) (PWCC)
352491894416 1977 Topps Football Dave Casper ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #380 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
401620592354 1976 Topps Football Randy Gradishar ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #257 PSA 7 (PWCC)
352491894121 1976 Topps Football Randy White ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #158 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
142982221164 1974 Topps Football Joe DeLamielleure ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #183 PSA 8 (PWCC)
352491894033 1973 Topps Football Jack Youngblood ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #343 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
352491894029 1973 Topps Football Dan Dierdorf ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #322 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
142982220873 1973 Topps Football Curley Culp ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #167 PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
401620591962 1973 Topps Football Jack Ham ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #115 PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
142982220715 1973 Topps Football Art Shell ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA 10 AUTO #77 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
401620591841 1972 Topps Football Rayfield Wright ROOKIE RC PSA/DNA AUTO PSA 7(oc) NRMT (PWCC)
401620591836 1972 Topps Football Larry Little ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #240 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
352491893548 1971 Topps Football Willie Lanier ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #114 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
401620591406 1970 Topps Football Alan Page ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #59 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
352491893319 1970 Topps Football Elvin Bethea ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #43 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
352491892864 1965 Philadelphia Mel Renfro ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #53 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
142982218946 1965 Philadelphia Paul Warfield ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #41 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
142982218808 1964 Philadelphia Jim Johnson ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #161 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
401620590288 1963 Topps Football Bob Lilly ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #82 PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)
142982218459 1963 Topps Football Deacon Jones ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #44 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
401620589974 1959 Topps Football Bobby Mitchell ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #140 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
401620589823 1957 Topps Football Dick Lane ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #85 PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
401566777317 1971 Topps Football Joe Greene ROOKIE RC PSA/DNA AUTO #245 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
401734518537 1996 Bowman's Best Football Ray Lewis ROOKIE RC PSA/DNA AUTO #164 PSA 9 (PWCC)
352617688316 1952 Bowman Small Gino Marchetti ROOKIE RC PSA/DNA AUTO #23 PSA 3 VG (PWCC)
143132190606 1956 Topps Football Stan Jones ROOKIE RC, PSA/DNA AUTO #71 PSA AUTH (PWCC)

[Peter_Spaeth]

More cards in the same sub as the PSA 10 52 Musial. Check yours if you dare.

28639435 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson 4 7323.23
28639436 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson 6
28639437 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson 6 8400
28639438 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson 6
28639439 x
28639440 1951 Bowman Larry Doby 8.5 515.5
28639441 x
28639442 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle 7 23925
28639443 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle 6.5
28639444 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle 7
28639445 x
28639446 1952 Bowman Stan Musial 10 28100.03
28639447 x
28639448 1952 Topps Al Rosen 7 1009.99
28639449 1952 Topps Bob Elliott 9 1136.11
28639450 1952 Topps Merrill Combs 7
28639451 x
28639452 1952 Topps Dizzy Trout 8 1388
28639453 1952 Topps Ken Raffensberger 8 154.5
28639454 1952 Topps Bob Miller 8.5 1182.87
28639455 x
28639456 1952 Topps Myron Ginsberg 8.5 1397.54
28639457 1952 Topps Joe Garagiola 7
28639458 1952 Topps Joe Garagiola 8.5 787
28639459 1952 Topps Frank Shea 7.5
28639460 1952 Topps Willie Mays 7
28639461 1952 Topps Willard Nixon 5
28639462 1952 Topps Chet Nichols 7
28639463 1952 Topps Gil Coan 8 249.01
28639464 1952 Topps Sibby Sisti 5
28639465 1952 Topps Jim Busby 9 2025
28639466 1952 Topps George Metkovich 8 1005
28639467 1952 Topps Hal Gregg 5
28639468 1952 Topps Karl Drews 8 617
28639469 x
28639470 1952 Topps Herman Franks 8.5 926.76
28639471 1952 Topps Jake Pitler 8 710
28639472 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle 6 5213
28639473 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle 6 5111
28639474 x
28639475 1954 Topps Al Kaline 7 1355.99
28639476 1954 Topps Al Kaline 7
28639477 1954 Topps Willie Mays 7 867.99
28639478 1954 Topps Willie Mays 8 3150
28639479 1954 Topps Willie Mays 8.5 4425.75
28639480 x
28639481 1955 Topps Duke Snider 8 2820
28639482 x
28639483 1957 Topps Duke Snider 8
28639484 1957 Topps Pee Wee Reese 8.5
28639485 1957 Topps Ted Williams 7
28639486 1957 Topps Ed Matthews 8
28639487 1957 Topps Ed Matthews 9
28639488 x
28639489 x
28639490 1960 Topps Bob Clemente 7.5
28639491 1960 Topps Mickey Mantle 7
28639492 1965 Topps Mickey Mantle 9 15,099.99
28639493 x
28639494 1965 Topps Steve Carlton 9 1391
28639495 1978 Topps Eddie Murray 9
28639496 1952 Bowman Large Don Paul 9 2075
28639497 1952 Bowman Large Ollie Matson 7.5 4049
28639498 1955 Bowman Doak Walker 9 1025
28639499 1957 Topps John Unitas 5.5
28639500 1957 Topps John Unitas 6
28639501 1957 Topps John Unitas 7
28639502 1958 Topps John Unitas 7
28639503 1948 Bowman George McAfee 9 1750
28639504 x
28639505 x
28639506 1957 Topps Footbal Checklist 1-154 Twin Blony 6.5 3706.23
28639507 1961 Fleer Wilt Chamberlain 7
28639508 1957 Topps Larry Costello 7
28639509 1957 Topps Bill Russell 7.5
28639510 1957 Topps Bob Cousey 7 1332.07
28639511 1957 Topps Bill Russell 7 14877
TOTAL: 149101.56
__________________

[Rhotchkiss]

Three 51 Mantles. Stone cold.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Every time you see another outed card, a whole sub is underneath it. Keep that in mind when people try to spin this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bumping this. If people care, I would encourage you to check your cards against this list and keep in mind new certs are being outed every day, meaning the underlying subs including those certs are at least in doubt. Unless and until we get comprehensive lists from PWCC or PSA, people are going to have to do their own diligence, if it matters to them. If it seems overwhelming, limit the focus to significant cards purchased from PWCC.

[Misunderestimated]

I was always curious about why so many cards consigned to PWCC were newly graded.....

[Bram99]

Bumping this. If people care, I would encourage you to check your cards against this list and keep in mind new certs are being outed every day, meaning the underlying subs including those certs are at least in doubt. Unless and until we get comprehensive lists from PWCC or PSA, people are going to have to do their own diligence, if it matters to them. If it seems overwhelming, limit the focus to significant cards purchased from PWCC.

Can someone design an app or a spreadsheet that we can all use to plug in our cert numbers and the app or spreadsheet would turn back any matches to cards on the suspect list? Surely with all of the brain power we have someone on this board or BO cards can do this...

[Republicaninmass]

Probably bought 4 or 5 cards from pwcc, all low grade. Funny my co assignments didnt get much action. It must have been lack of eye appeal, or no chance to improve them

[Peter_Spaeth]

Probably bought 4 or 5 cards from pwcc, all low grade. Funny my co assignments didnt get much action. It must have been lack of eye appeal, or no chance to improve them

This consignor must have been happy. This card is, to put it mildly, abundant in PSA 10 and sells for 125-150. There are probably 5+ BINs on ebay right now at this price. PWCC sold one for over 400.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Score-Football-Troy-Aikman-ROOKIE-RC-270-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401766663153?hash=item5d8b28c3f1%3Ag%3ArWUAAOSwV1B c2chG&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

That's one thing I've never understood. They sell so many cards that are what I call commodity cards at non-commodity prices. What possible reason is there for their PSA 10 (one of hundreds if not thousands, I'm too lazy to look it up) to sell for a multiple of anyone else's PSA 10. ESPECIALLY at a PSA 10. There's not supposed to be a lot of variation in 10's (besides altered and un-altered) I mean there is no sticker for a high-end 10, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's one thing I've never understood. They sell so many cards that are what I call commodity cards at non-commodity prices. What possible reason is there for their PSA 10 (one of hundreds if not thousands, I'm too lazy to look it up) to sell for a multiple of anyone else's PSA 10. ESPECIALLY at a PSA 10. There's not supposed to be a lot of variation in 10's (besides altered and un-altered) I mean there is no sticker for a high-end 10, right?

I have no idea. But of course we see these record-obliterating, inexplicable prices all the time from PWCC, and inevitably someone comes on to defend them, so I'll wait.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I have no idea. But of course we see these record-obliterating, inexplicable prices all the time from PWCC, and inevitably someone comes on to defend them, so I'll wait.

There are plenty of cards I wouldn't question, but Aikman and Mattingly make no sense.

[Republicaninmass]

This consignor must have been happy. This card is, to put it mildly, abundant in PSA 10 and sells for 125-150. There are probably 5+ BINs on ebay right now at this price. PWCC sold one for over 400.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Score-Football-Troy-Aikman-ROOKIE-RC-270-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401766663153?hash=item5d8b28c3f1%3Ag%3ArWUAAOSwV1B c2chG&nma=true&si=Unr2D%252BMBLSgpJEVpwtEfYJepICw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It's a ruse to find new unbeknownst consignors, new material for moser to work on, and commissions to be collected. .I knew it, but had to see for myself. It's ok if the winning bidder is the consignor and planned on paying, right Betsy?

[Rhotchkiss]

Some recent vintage PWCC prices compared to immediate comps. These were cards I was watching (and in the case of the Brown Lenox, that I won), which sold in this past auction for less than recent prior sales. There are many more -- as I watched many T206's and early cards sell for relatively cheap in this auction. Perhaps it was because of all the trimming/altered press. Perhaps its because nobody shilled these cards. I don't know, but the point is that while so many PWCC cards go for crazy prices (and I can name a few other AHs where that seems to happen), not all cards do. Spend what you are willing to spend; that's what I do and why I rarely am the high bidder on PWCC auctions.

1. T206 McQillan w/ bat, Brown Lenox, PSA 1: sold at PWCC for $8,600 was previously sold by REA on 10/28/18 for $9,000

2. E106 wagner Batting, PSA 5: sold at PWCC for $8,200, was previously "sold" by Mile High for $9k+ on 6/10/19 and for $10k+ on 12/16/18

3. E98 Cobb, Red, PSA 9: Sold at PWCC for $29.5k -- According to VCP, there have been 14 sales of E98 Cobb PSA 9s since 2013, and only once did an example sell for less than then PWCC one. t

4. E104-1 Mack SGC 1 ("Worlds Chanls"): Sold at PWCC for $355. Prior to that the same card sold at PWCC in February for $598, and before that, the same card traded at Mile High and Greg Bissneau (in 2014 and 2010, respectively) for approx $600.

[Throttlesteer]

I'm breathing a sigh of relief; none of my stuff is listed. However, I only checked against the PSA holders. Has anyone identified any SGC cards affected? I would guess no, given the goal was to maximize the $$$

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Last I looked there were only a couple SGC. Probably failed PSA too many times.

[T205 GB]

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards.

It would be a massive undertaking as well as the need for huge hobby support to launch a new company. From day one you will have people trying to ding your credibility so being transparent is a must. At some point an altered card of some sort will seep through and the minuscule error will cost you reputation points you cant afford to lose as a new business. You also have to worry about staffing and detailed training, greedy staff, and insider fraud. If that is not enough both PSA and SGC have very good attorneys, deep assets/vested interest in the hobby, and great legal teams. Even if you are right 100% and have ample evidence against them you still lost because you would be broke before you got notice of a hearing. PSA and SGC both have their skeletons but that is the options the hobby is stuck with because that is what it wants. Educate yourself about the cards you are buying and stop giving your money away to people you don feel are credible.

[steve B]

Can someone design an app or a spreadsheet that we can all use to plug in our cert numbers and the app or spreadsheet would turn back any matches to cards on the suspect list? Surely with all of the brain power we have someone on this board or BO cards can do this...

Does "find on page" work with the forum where they're posted? That would be the simplest way.

[CMIZ5290]

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14717612&posted=1#post14717612

Peter- This is unbelievable....So where are we at exactly with criminal possibilities with PWCC?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter- This is unbelievable....So where are we at exactly with criminal possibilities with PWCC?

Dunno, I am not involved and all I have read is their statement that they are working with law enforcement.

[CMIZ5290]

I really wish Jeff L. would chime in. The more that I look into this, the more suspicious everything seems to be, and the more shocking it is, and the more guilty these fraudsters are... I always knew and suspected about the bid shilling with PWCC, but this is a whole different ball game. I'm just wondering what the legal system could possibly do. This guy and his wife have made a ton of money obviously doing things illegally....I can just about bet the house on this though....Ebay won't do a damn thing about it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another page of recently outed cards here.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=117

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Peter. I know have that thread on my phone and update it once/day holding my breath.... But I (and I am sure others) appreciate you keeping the Net54 group in the loop about the goings on at Blowout and elsewhere

[Throttlesteer]

Another page of recently outed cards here.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=117

The scope of this is just jaw-dropping. I'm out of words

[Peter_Spaeth]

The scope of this is just jaw-dropping. I'm out of words

I hate to beat the dead horse, but this ain't nothing compared to what's out there.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Color me a simple-minded purist I guess but, monetary values aside, this just makes me sad. Take for instance the T206 Lundgren that was at the top of one of the exposed lists. It was "improved" from a PSA 2.5 to a PSA 6. That was a nice looking 100 + year old card I would have been proud to own just as it was. I would have been happy to have cracked it out and placed it in my binder. Now, it has been tainted, altered, whatever you want to call it. Its value as a pure historical artifact has been ruined IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meet the new Leafs. Not quite the same as the old Leafs.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=118

[Peter_Spaeth]

Half the border missing?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14767161&postcount=2979

[perezfan]

Geez... look at the amount of air space between the card's left border and the left edge of the recessed portion of the slab. You could fit 2 strands of spaghetti (or 4 vermicelli) into that gaping void.

And the right side trim job is horrendous- especially at the top right corner. A shame that they ruined a very nice "5". Can't the idiot at PSA immediately see that there is 50% more white border top-to-bottom, than there is left-to-right? It really makes one believe that this "oversight" could be intentional.

NEAR MINT... what a joke! More fine quality work from your “friends” at PSA. :eek:

[Johnny630]

Here is the scary thing we are only discovering one card doctors bad cards.... there are many more bad dudes out there who do bad things to cards this guy was just ballzy enough to do it with same eBay name and auction house over and over again ... how many are slicker then him? I’d venture to say several....how many licks till the center of a tootsie pop? The World Man Never Know....

[perezfan]

Here is the scary thing we are only discovering one card doctors bad cards.... there are many more bad dudes out there who do bad things to cards this guy was just ballzy enough to do it with same eBay name and auction house over and over again ... how many are slicker then him? I’d venture to say several....how many licks till the center of a tootsie pop? The World Man Never Know....

The world will truly never know... but apparently you don't even have to be much slicker than him. Many of these alterations are readily apparent at first glance!

We now have photos of Moser, Orlando and "Brentsy" Huigens. How about a nice group shot of PSA's grading staff...

[ejharrington]

Half the border missing?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14767161&postcount=2979
There is no question in my mind, after seeing some of these cards before and after, that at least some of this scandal was not mere incompetence but rather a conspiracy to defraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think that's the thinnest Leaf I've seen yet. Mercy.

[Johnny630]

The world will truly never know... but apparently you don't even have to be much slicker than him. Many of these alterations are readily apparent at first glance!

We now have photos of Moser, Orlando and "Brentsy" Huigens. How about a nice group shot of PSA's grading staff...

Omg so funny !! Three Blind Mice !

[1952boyntoncollector]

Any actual lawsuits yet on behalf of a buyer of a PSA graded card in which he submits the card was negligently graded previously and PSA and the buyer didnt feel whatever PSA offered to him/her was enough to to resolve the issue so a lawsuit was filed?

If zero lawsuits with all of those buyers of these 'issue' cards, then we need to just drop the issue of the law coming to play into this.

[calvindog]

Any actual lawsuits yet on behalf of a buyer of a PSA graded card in which he submits the card was negligently graded previously and PSA and the buyer didnt feel whatever PSA offered to him/her was enough to to resolve the issue so a lawsuit was filed?

If zero lawsuits with all of those buyers of these 'issue' cards, then we need to just drop the issue of the law coming to play into this.


Huh?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speechless at these Leaf Baughs. The number of registry sets affected could be significant.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=121

[1952boyntoncollector]

Speechless at these Leaf Baughs. The number of registry sets affected could be significant.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=121

and zero lawsuits?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Speechless at these Leaf Baughs. The number of registry sets affected could be significant.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=121


I can see a new PSA label coming out to re-certify these high end cards....

[Peter_Spaeth]

and zero lawsuits?

The wave of outings has been during the past month. I wouldn't expect lawsuits yet.

[1952boyntoncollector]

A month is a long time. When you hear of any issue in the news...its only takes a few days to hear of a lawsuit filed ..but i get it that baseball card collecting isnt the BP oil spill

There is also statute of limitations issue but fraud usually can extend those timelines etc...

[Peter_Spaeth]

A month is a long time. When you hear of any issue in the news...its only takes a few days to hear of a lawsuit filed ..but i get it that baseball card collecting isnt the BP oil spill

There is also statute of limitations issue but fraud usually can extend those timelines etc...

There is a rush sometimes in large cases because plaintiffs' lawyers are competing to be the first-filed suit. 99 percent of people who own these cards don't even know about them yet probably. And people would have to go through the review process with PSA first as well.

[calvindog]

A month isn’t a long time at all. Efforts are being made to get refunds from various parties without the need for expensive litigation. Why would someone sue unless there is no other recourse? And the fraud has just been uncovered. That’s when the statue of limitations just starts to run. This thing is in the bottom of the first inning.

[calvindog]

There is a rush sometimes in large cases because plaintiffs' lawyers are competing to be the first-filed suit. 99 percent of people who own these cards don't even know about them yet probably.

I think he’s confusing class action litigation - which isn’t happening here - with individuals suing under the PSA guarantee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think he’s confusing class action litigation - which isn’t happening here - with individuals suing under the PSA guarantee.

And it's hard to sue on the guarantee unless you've first asked PSA to make good on the guarantee and weren't satisfied with the outcome.

[calvindog]

And it's hard to sue on the guarantee unless you've first asked PSA to make good on the guarantee and weren't satisfied with the outcome.

LOL of course. But there should be a flood of $1000 lawsuits nevertheless by now. Even as refunds are being paid.

[1952boyntoncollector]

A month isn’t a long time at all. Efforts are being made to get refunds from various parties without the need for expensive litigation. Why would someone sue unless there is no other recourse? And the fraud has just been uncovered. That’s when the statue of limitations just starts to run. This thing is in the bottom of the first inning.

Right but knowing the minds of many collectors, it would not be stretch that at least one of them is not happy with the refund being offered. Expensive litigation happens all the time for things that dont cost as much as the litigation as you know..

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL of course. But there should be a flood of $1000 lawsuits nevertheless by now. Even as refunds are being paid.

Part of the problem is you always forget to use the sarcasm font and then the wrong people think you agree with them. :)

[calvindog]

Right but knowing the minds of many collectors, it would not be stretch that at least one of them is not happy with the refund being offered. Expensive litigation happens all the time for things that dont cost as much as the litigation as you know..

Where have you seen evidence that partial refunds are being paid out?

If the average card at issue here is worth $5000 there won’t be many lawsuits if any. That’s how PSA has been able to say FU for years to anyone who wants a refund.

What’s going to happen is a law firm will sue them and represent a hundred plaintiffs, large and small, with before and after pics as evidence. And sue them separately for each one. When they see the bad publicity and their inability to make the cases go away they will pay. Or else they’ll get buried.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Where have you seen evidence that partial refunds are being paid out?

If the average card at issue here is worth $5000 there won’t be many lawsuits if any. That’s how PSA has been able to say FU for years to anyone who wants a refund.

What’s going to happen is a law firm will sue them and represent a hundred plaintiffs, large and small, with before and after pics as evidence. And sue them separately for each one. When they see the bad publicity and their inability to make the cases go away they will pay. Or else they’ll get buried.


zero evidence, just human nature that hard for me to believe everyone asking for damages will be satisfied .

[tmw2ward]

Do we have an idea of the total number of cards that may be altered?

[Peter_Spaeth]

This sub includes the Old Mill Cobb that BO has identified as originally having been purchased by PWCC itself in an SGC 30 holder.

22834524 T206 Polar Bear O'Hara PSA 2 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834525 T206 Polar Bear O'Hara PSA 4 PWCC 10/5/2014
22834526 T206 Piedmont Cobb Green Background PSA 2.5 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834527 T206 Piedmont Cobb Green Background PSA 3 PWCC 6/3/2014 Looks More Like a Yellow Background
22834528 T206 Old Mill Cobb Red Background PSA 4.5 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834529 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834530 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834531 T206 Sweet Caporal Cobb Red Background PSA 6 PWCC 11/2/2014
22834532 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834533 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834534 1933 Goudey #92 Gehrig PSA 3 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834535 1933 Goudey #154 Foxx PSA 4 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834536 1933 Goudey #160 Gehrig PSA 4.5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834537 1933 Goudey #216 Gomez PSA 5.5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834538 1933 Goudey #220 Grove PSA 5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834539 1933 Goudey #223 Dean PSA 5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834540 1940 Playball #1 DiMaggio PSA 4 NO RECORD OF SALE
22834541 1949 Bowman #50 Robinson PSA 8 PWCC 6/5/2014
22834542 Altered, Min Size or Miscut NO RECORD OF SALE
22834543 1952 Topps #1 Pafko BLACK PSA 5 NO RECORD OF SALE
22834544 1954 Topps #128 Aaron PSA 6 PWCC 11/3/2014
22834545 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834546 1954 Topps #128 Aaron PSA 7 PWCC 6/5/2014
22834547 1956 Topps #135 Mantle GRAY PSA 7 NO RECORD OF SALE

Many more subs containing outed cards are in the works I hear.

[forceplay sport]

I have been reading this for about an hour and still not really sure whats going on. Anyone want to give me a readers digest version....

[ullmandds]

Watch this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9TpKs7DKsto

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do we have an idea of the total number of cards that may be altered?

Do you mean (1) the number of cards specifically outed, (2) the number of cards in the same submissions as the outed cards, or (3) how many altered cards are out there in the world?

[Peter_Spaeth]

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14780787&postcount=3178

[1952boyntoncollector]

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14780787&postcount=3178

some of these cards would have gone up on their own..

an issue is if you make a corner rounder that was sharp....is that really altering.

if you bounce the card a few times like in a game on the corner like a kid may of done or put in your spokes..thats not altering a card.....plus that would lower the value ..i guess thats normal wear and tear is not altering.....

on this cobb it is alleged the corners were made worse....by rounding them...also there is some altering alleged to improve the card of course..but the rounding part is whats interesting to me.

[Johnny630]

some of these cards would have gone up on their own..

an issue is if you make a corner rounder that was sharp....is that really altering.

if you bounce the card a few times like in a game on the corner like a kid may of done or put in your spokes..thats not altering a card.....plus that would lower the value ..i guess thats normal wear and tear is not altering.....

on this cobb it is alleged the corners were made worse....by rounding them..

It’s altered badly

[1952boyntoncollector]

It’s altered badly

yes i added to my comment....but the rounding part is interesting

so how much is PSA supposed to pay back on this one? No lawsuits filed so everyone must be being paid back to their satisfaction

[tmw2ward]

Peter, what I'm asking is, is there a comprehensive list of Whittman/PWCC cards. I have already found two I purchased on the list and wanted to check all the PWCC cards I have. Thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, what I'm asking is, is there a comprehensive list of Whittman/PWCC cards. I have already found two I purchased on the list and wanted to check all the PWCC cards I have. Thanks.

The thread I linked to is the subs done so far. MANY more subs are coming.

Here is the list to date.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14717348&postcount=1

[tmw2ward]

Thanks Peter!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks Peter!

Stay tuned. It's going to be ugly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

yes i added to my comment....but the rounding part is interesting

so how much is PSA supposed to pay back on this one? No lawsuits filed so everyone must be being paid back to their satisfaction

This is an SGC card, for starters.

[1952boyntoncollector]

This is an SGC card, for starters.

so SGC doesnt pay anything back? I think you know what i mean.

[Peter_Spaeth]

so SGC doesnt pay anything back? I think you know what i mean.

Someone has to make a claim, Jake. It got outed yesterday. I really don't know what you're driving at here. I hope you do. :)

[Bigdaddy]

So does anyone have any idea of where the cards that are rejected by the TPGs are winding up?

Are they just being resubmitted over and over until they finally get a numeric grade?

Are they being sold/auctioned raw through some other dealer?

Maybe someone is using them as coasters for their drinks?

They are somewhere though; they have not disappeared.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So does anyone have any idea of where the cards that are rejected by the TPGs are winding up?

Are they just being resubmitted over and over until they finally get a numeric grade?

Are they being sold/auctioned raw through some other dealer?

Maybe someone is using them as coasters for their drinks?

They are somewhere though; they have not disappeared.

Some of 1 and some of 2 I suspect.

[swarmee]

Seems like, for vintage, he's submitting to PSA first, having a high success rate, and then may try back at PSA again before submitting to SGC. If the first touch-up didn't work, maybe a second will? Some of the cards were purchased two years prior to coming back up for sale. This may be due to the ones that were initially deemed altered being retried multiple times.

Some of the sets really only have value in PSA slabs because of the registry.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Someone has to make a claim, Jake. It got outed yesterday. I really don't know what you're driving at here. I hope you do. :)

Lots of talk, no lawsuits. If no lawsuits, that says might not be such a problem.

[steve B]

Lots of talk, no lawsuits. If no lawsuits, that says might not be such a problem.

Or... keep your scams to small dollar amounts and refund readily when found out... No lawsuit no problem? :confused:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lots of talk, no lawsuits. If no lawsuits, that says might not be such a problem.

Sure Jake whatever you say.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or... keep your scams to small dollar amounts and refund readily when found out... No lawsuit no problem? :confused:

I don't follow this at all. There are some very expensive altered cards in holders, starting with 00000001.

[steve B]

I don't follow this at all. There are some very expensive altered cards in holders, starting with 00000001.

It was mostly a response to the idea that if there aren't lawsuits there's no problem.
Not many will sue over $10, especially if they say "oh I have a problem" and they get their $10 back right away.

Now the other bike shop in town where the owners relative confronted by a soon to be bride with some pretty gnarly facial scrapes from the handlebars coming loose who replied to this news with "well what do you expect me to do about it? " …

[Peter_Spaeth]

As Jimi Hendrix sang, if 6 was 9, I don't mind. 53 Parkhurst.



https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14786293&postcount=3201

[calvindog]

No lawsuits in the last two hours. Onto the next hobby disaster, this one’s cleaned up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No lawsuits in the last two hours. Onto the next hobby disaster, this one’s cleaned up.

Jake will be pleased.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL how dare they give it the same grade after such a nice trim job. Read the description.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787327&postcount=3232

[Peter_Spaeth]

Possibly a world record for most trimmed off a card.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787450&postcount=3233

And not far behind.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787479&postcount=3236

[calvindog]

Possibly a world record for most trimmed off a card.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787450&postcount=3233

Always complaining, always negative. The diamond cut is gone! Isn’t that a good thing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Always complaining, always negative. The diamond cut is gone! Isn’t that a good thing?

Yes, and that's a good thing for the hobby!! And in any event, it was just a bump.

[jad22]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787494&postcount=3237

Best one today.

[Johnny630]

And the PSA Kool Aid Drinkers Continue To Buy.
How ugly is this year’s National Gonna Be At two booths ?

[Johnny630]

Are we to believe the PSA graders stink this bad at their job ? This stink so bad of other stuff going on.....Ov Vey

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14787929&postcount=3244

[swarmee]

Have we made a list of all the different types of alterations found so far by Moser?
1) Trimming
2) Bleaching
3) Rebuilding corners
4) Filling pinholes
5) Repairing tears
6) Pressing out creases
7) Recoloring to cover up paper loss or minimize appearance of fisheyes/snow
8) Removing caramel/wax/gum stains
9) Shill bidding and winning his own auctions
10) Faking rough cuts

Things Moser has confessed to: just bumping cards on the basis of their own merits.

If only he would use his powers for good...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leaf Mini.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14788416&postcount=3254

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy. Another Leaf Mini.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=136

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14790967&postcount=3388

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yowch. These just don't stop.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14790985&postcount=3390

[ejharrington]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14790967&postcount=3388

How in the hell can that much of a trim pass review? On some of these altered cards, I have sympathy for the TPGs as it is virtually impossible to tell the alterations without having the benefit of the before and after comparison, which they don't have when grading. But these ones with the major trims, I just scratch my head...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Do ya, Mr. Sloan?

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14791034&postcount=3391

[HawkFan70]

Are there any regular sized Leaf cards left?

[1952boyntoncollector]

No lawsuits in the last two hours. Onto the next hobby disaster, this one’s cleaned up.

Appears so...still no lawsuits.....guess will keep posting all of this injustice but no lawsuits.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Or... keep your scams to small dollar amounts and refund readily when found out... No lawsuit no problem? :confused:

correct..if there are no lawsuits its not enough of a problem...usually even when there are no criminal charges there are at least civil lawsuits...if you dont see any civil lawsuits then you can forget criminal charges etc..

its a problem even if no lawsuits but i would worry about problems where there are actual lawsuits and criminal charges more than on problems where there aren't

[1952boyntoncollector]

Are there any regular sized Leaf cards left?

I have a bunch of them with fat borders...i wonder how much the population went down actually...

[calvindog]

correct..if there are no lawsuits its not enough of a problem...usually even when there are no criminal charges there are at least civil lawsuits...if you dont see any civil lawsuits then you can forget criminal charges etc..

its a problem even if no lawsuits but i would worry about problems where there are actual lawsuits and criminal charges more than on problems where there aren't

Do you think lawsuits occur before or after a plaintiff attempts to get his money refunded?

Do you think criminal charges are brought before or after law enforcement completes its investigation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you think lawsuits occur before or after a plaintiff attempts to get his money refunded?

Do you think criminal charges are brought before or after law enforcement completes its investigation?

DNFTT, as they say. It's so absurd as to not warrant comment at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm defending a case right now that was filed almost 2 years after a merger, claiming shareholders of the acquired company got shortchanged. I guess if Jake had been advising the client he would have told them to rest easy a few days after the closing. No lawsuit, no problem.

[calvindog]

I'm defending a case right now that was filed almost 2 years after a merger, claiming shareholders of the acquired company got shortchanged. I guess if Jake had been advising the client he would have told them to rest easy a few days after the closing. No lawsuit, no problem.

Maybe he practices in a jurisdiction where the statute of limitations is only a week? Mars perhaps?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe he practices in a jurisdiction where the statute of limitations is only a week? Mars perhaps?

Less gravity may translate to a shorter limitations period.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Do you think lawsuits occur before or after a plaintiff attempts to get his money refunded?

Do you think criminal charges are brought before or after law enforcement completes its investigation?

Well BP oil spill there were lawsuits next week....not comparing cards to that but you are acting like its unrealistic to have lawsuits filed in a month...its not uncommon to have lawsuits filed in a week. Its been more than a month..how long do you think isn't too long? 3 months? 4 months? You tell me..

I agree if money is refunded and all the buyers are happy there wont be lawsuits thus far there are no lawsuits.

law enforcement completing its investigation? Civil suits occur much faster than that. As stated, there may be no criminal cases but there always are civil cases if its a real problem. If theres a criminal case there WILL be civil cases of course.

Also there are people that dont care what is offered and they want a lawsuit filed to make everything public instead of signing a release and be silent. I think theres a large enough sample size of buyers that were wronged that the all wont be satisfied with a refund and going quietly etc if its truly a big deal in the hobby

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'm defending a case right now that was filed almost 2 years after a merger, claiming shareholders of the acquired company got shortchanged. I guess if Jake had been advising the client he would have told them to rest easy a few days after the closing. No lawsuit, no problem.

I agree cases can be filed a day before the Statute of Limitations but if this is such a big issue and deep and rich with so many people burned. i would think someone will file a case before 2 years. Heck someone sued the Spurs for not playing their Starters a few years back and it was a day or so after it happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Someone may yet sue. They would have to first submit the card to PSA under the guarantee, and PSA would have to decline to honor the guarantee, before any claim would be ripe. That is going to take time. The guarantee does not require PSA to review a card within X days does it?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Someone may yet sue. They would have to first submit the card to PSA under the guarantee, and PSA would have to decline to honor the guarantee, before any claim would be ripe. That is going to take time. The guarantee does not require PSA to review a card within X days does it?

I know a lot of card buyers that are pretty impatient. If a card is late a few days they go nuts. If you thought you lost 5k? How long would you wait around. 3 months? I guess i am asking what time frame do you think is a reasonable time that you would agree that it would appear strange no lawsuits are filed and/or that appears refunds are being paid to everyone's satisfaction so no lawsuits are filed. Dont tell me a year..

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know a lot of card buyers that are pretty impatient. If a card is late a few days they go nuts. If you thought you lost 5k? How long would you wait around. 3 months?

If I sent the card back on day 1 I would still have to wait for them to review it, which might well take 3 months given their turnaround times.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If I sent the card back on day 1 I would still have to wait for them to review it, which might well take 3 months given their turnaround times.

Id like to hear one person on net54, who actually is in that situation say they are willing to wait 3 months for a review on their card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Id like to hear one person on net54, who actually is in that situation say they are willing to wait 3 months for a review on their card.

What choice is there? Are you going to sue PSA for not reviewing your card fast enough when there is no document obligating them to review within a particular time? Sounds like a great cause of action. It would get tossed in a minute and you might get sanctioned.

[bnorth]

What choice is there? Are you going to sue PSA for not reviewing your card fast enough when there is no document obligating them to review within a particular time? Sounds like a great cause of action. It would get tossed in a minute and you might get sanctioned.

Mr Spaeth you need to take your own advice.:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mr Spaeth you need to take your own advice.:D

I know. Don't I know it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Less gravity may translate to a shorter limitations period.

The Mars day IS somewhat shorter than ours...

[1952boyntoncollector]

What choice is there? Are you going to sue PSA for not reviewing your card fast enough when there is no document obligating them to review within a particular time? Sounds like a great cause of action. It would get tossed in a minute and you might get sanctioned.

So they can take 5 years, what choice do you have...

IF PSA acted so badly, it wouldnt be a lawsuit about how long it is taking to review the card, it would be about them giving a certain grade (and im sure lawyers will come up with other defendants and other issues if there would be any actual lawsuits fi this was a real problem). If all of this is pointless and there is no cause of action, again no lawsuits, and whats the point ... sounds like they have no cause of action..

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

OK, can someone please file a lawsuit to please Jake?

[1952boyntoncollector]

OK, can someone please file a lawsuit to please Jake?

Right, apparently everyone is willing to wait 3 months or years to wait to see what PSA will say because what choice to they have or everyone is getting satisfied with what they are being offered because we all know people in the hobby always agree on what the value of a card should be..

[steve B]

correct..if there are no lawsuits its not enough of a problem...usually even when there are no criminal charges there are at least civil lawsuits...if you dont see any civil lawsuits then you can forget criminal charges etc..

its a problem even if no lawsuits but i would worry about problems where there are actual lawsuits and criminal charges more than on problems where there aren't

I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea that there's no problem because nobody has sued anyone yet is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea that there's no problem because nobody has sued anyone yet is.

Good luck with that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

E121 Ruth 17K gain. SGC. Also graded at National. Good show.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792429&postcount=3405

And featured by SGC on Facebook.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792447&postcount=3407

[steve B]

Let me guess how this goes.

Lets say me... Lawyer X, I've been defrauded out of $2000. I want to sue!
Lawyer X. Did you try to get your money back
Me no, I'm too mad and want to sue!

Maybe make the next line by lawyer X multiple choice
a)Security!
b)The small claims forms are online/At the courthouse
c) show yourself out, I'd do it, but that would only make your bill larger.
d) Of course! My retainer is $XXXXX
e) Of course! I haven't lost one in a while and it's good to stay humble.

[steve B]

E121 Ruth 17K gain. SGC. Also graded at National. Good show.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792429&postcount=3405

And featured by SGC on Facebook.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792447&postcount=3407


WTF. They spotted the nearly invisible erasure on a T206 I'd owned since the early 80's but didn't spot that one?

Why do I always get the graders that can see?

Or do I need to tape a 50 to the card saver?

[ullmandds]

that e121 ruth was once mine!!! i sold it through REA a few years ago. It was pen on the back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

WTF. They spotted the nearly invisible erasure on a T206 I'd owned since the early 80's but didn't spot that one?

Why do I always get the graders that can see?

Or do I need to tape a 50 to the card saver?

Or give to Brent to submit?

[steve B]

Or give to Brent to submit?

I really shouldn't complain, the card is still a really nice looking common, I'd hoped for a 50, maybe 60 and it still got a 40 even with the erasure.

But the one on that Ruth is really bad. It may look ok ish, but the contrast enhanced view it stands out much more than the light stains.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I had a buddy submit a gorgeous T3 to SGC they caught erased pencil that I missed and had to use a loop to be sure I was really seeing it.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

[Johnny630]

Taking stains off of backs and fronts have been going on for 30 years + and removing lead
Never has it been right but it’s been done for a long time....it’s just now being exposed

[Peter_Spaeth]

E121 Ruth 17K gain. SGC. Also graded at National. Good show.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792429&postcount=3405

And featured by SGC on Facebook.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14792447&postcount=3407

It looks like REA sold it prior to being altered. I wonder if Brent bought it, as he did the WWG DiMaggio.

[ullmandds]

It looks like REA sold it prior to being altered. I wonder if Brent bought it, as he did the WWG DiMaggio.

I know someone who'd know who bought it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know someone who'd know who bought it!

Someone who knew told me who bought the DiMaggio, but I'm not sure history will repeat itself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14794253&postcount=3429

[1952boyntoncollector]

Let me guess how this goes.

Lets say me... Lawyer X, I've been defrauded out of $2000. I want to sue!
Lawyer X. Did you try to get your money back
Me no, I'm too mad and want to sue!

Maybe make the next line by lawyer X multiple choice
a)Security!
b)The small claims forms are online/At the courthouse
c) show yourself out, I'd do it, but that would only make your bill larger.
d) Of course! My retainer is $XXXXX
e) Of course! I haven't lost one in a while and it's good to stay humble.


Tell that do the buyer of that 60k card that sold for 5k months earlier in an much lower graded holder and there are before and after pictures of an alteration... Just an example, just saying there are more examples of people that bought altered cards than guys that bought cards for less than 1000, plus people may of bought more than one 'issue' card which adds up

[1952boyntoncollector]

I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea that there's no problem because nobody has sued anyone yet is.

Doesnt mean its a problem. but there are problems and there are PROBLEMs....its not like the united states is not a litigious country. Always here stories of people suing for anything with disregard to costs and their time.

Theres a been a whole lot of talk with zero lawsuits..

[tschock]

Always here stories of people suing for anything with disregard to costs and their time.

Man bites dog.

[Leon]

Man bites dog.

When my daughter was very little she bit my wife. My wife bit her back. My daughter never bit again (true story).

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=146

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14807600&postcount=3651

[Misunderestimated]

Was there any discernible drop off in the prices of the cards at the last PWCC auction for the "prime cards".etc . I know it's not much of a sample size yet. I just wondered and it seems like there are people paying attention on the message boards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to this BO post, the page listing team members was taken down.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14811494&postcount=3692

[Peter_Spaeth]

T206 Young 3 to 5.5

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14813251&postcount=3708

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14818260&postcount=3726

[1952boyntoncollector]

T206 Young 3 to 5.5

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14813251&postcount=3708

That would be a 5k+ improvement in value. I would just to keep a separate list for these types of cards.

[1952boyntoncollector]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14818260&postcount=3726

a 10k gain..add that one to the 5k and up list..

[Peter_Spaeth]

That would be a 5k+ improvement in value. I would just to keep a separate list for these types of cards.

Good idea, please do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A couple of 48 Leaf Musial rookies.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=151

[jad22]

A couple of 48 Leaf Musial rookies.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=151

Going back 11 years. Geez.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leaf Musial day it seems.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14821686&postcount=3776

[jad22]

Leaf Musial day it seems.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14821686&postcount=3776

Is 2008 the earliest one they have shown? Going to be impossible to get a firm handle on this. Well over a decade of flooding into the market.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is 2008 the earliest one they have shown? Going to be impossible to get a firm handle on this. Well over a decade of flooding into the market.

I've lost track. But I assure you this all was happening long before 2008, and that there are many more card doctors who haven't left the same paper trail, if that's any comfort. :cool: