Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[Goudey77]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

[ullmandds]

While I am sure the video is interesting and I will get to it later I don’t have to watch it to agree with what you said here. I would be satisfied if the grading companies were to evolve, recognize and label cards as for what they are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would presume an item designated Restored will always sell for considerably less than one deemed original, so there would be the same incentive to alter cards as before, no? Don't we already have something close anyhow with AUTH?

[Goudey77]

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing? No skilled card doctor is going to say oh please designate my card restored so it can be worth 25-50 percent.

[ullmandds]

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

[Goudey77]

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

I don't follow your logic at all. They sell for less only if they're caught. Your stated premise is that the problem we have now is TPGs aren't detecting alteration. So why wouldn't that continue if the result of getting them past TPGs is that they're worth more?

[bnorth]

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. Paid damage control maybe, I have no idea. Anybody else have a hobby that has nothing to do with baseball cards that we can use their standards to make criminal activity in our hobby seem OK?

Brent isn't trying to mature the hobby he is trying to cover his ass IMHO.

[Goudey77]

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What’s undetectable by TPG’s slide by as unaltered. That’s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG’s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of “tolerances” when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let me understand this. Suppose I am a highly skilled card doctor making gobs of money getting many of my hatchet jobs past TPGs. Now, a market develops for restored cards (there sort of is one already, the AUTH, but never mind that). Restored cards sell for 50-75 percent less. I am going to stop being a card doctor and become a card restorer? Why?

Again, it's late, maybe I am missing it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What’s undetectable by TPG’s slide by as unaltered. That’s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG’s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of “tolerances” when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

Right. Any system at all only works if the TPGs can tell the difference.

[Goudey77]

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I wish they would do that. But the reality is that they are performing suboptimally which means people take it into their own hands, particularly with so much accessible information, with all that entails.

[Goudey77]

Watch the video if you can spare the time. It’ll make you appreciate the openness of CGC on this subject and what they are doing about it. It certainly makes it less taboo. To those who think the comic hobby is irrelevant to cards are turning a blind eye. It’s all relevant because it’s all driven by the almighty dollar.

[Kenny Cole]

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

[Goudey77]

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Hopefully the TPGs can find some way to step up their game, and hopefully law enforcement can make examples of a few people that will at least incrementally deter bad conduct.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

[ullmandds]

Ya...6 minutes was plenty! The problem with this video and comparing the baseball card hobby to comics becomes clear in the first five minutes. They stated very early on that the comic book hobby was not mature enough such that subtle differences in grades affected value...When this guy started restoring comic books and merged his company with the grading company. So restoration was being done very early on in the continuum of grading within the comic book Hobby.

This scenario is quite the opposite of what is going on in the baseball card hobby these days.

Another apples to oranges bullshit analogy to justify devious behavior on the part of your friends...in my humble opinion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I understand it, originality has always been crucial for baseball cards because with so many examples of most cards in existence, condition is the real differentiator. And that would not work if improving condition was permissible. Now sure they may be a niche market for people who just want a great looking card regardless of originality, but I don't think that's going to go mainstream.

[Goudey77]

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea of a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG or card doctor for that matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea is a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG.

I think you had two things happening more or less at the same time, card doctoring was rampant so there was a market for what people believed was good third party authentication, and more and more business was done not in person. It's the internet that ultimately made TPGs I think even if PSA started a little before.

[Kenny Cole]

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people for bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria when they don't.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people of bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler. People want it both ways. They want crime lab like scrutiny at minimal cost and quickly.

[Kenny Cole]

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler.

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

I think they would have a riot if they formally changed their turnaround times. People these days are incredibly impatient, they bitch if an AH hasn't sent their cards within two days.

[Goudey77]

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

[drcy]

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

[Goudey77]

I don’t want this link reference to get lost in the shuffle.

It’s worth watching and noting when we hold TPG’s to the highest standards.
CGC absolutely got it right by taking a stance on this topic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

[Kenny Cole]

I think they would have a riot if they formally changed their turnaround times. People these days are incredibly impatient, they bitch if an AH hasn't sent their cards within two days.

So its better to just ignore the turnaround times that they promised to meet? PSA is admittedly months behind. You don't think people are upset about that? Maybe you and i are seeing different posts, but that certainly isn't my take. And, at the least, increasing the stated turnaround times would have the virtue of being somewhat honest.

[Goudey77]

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

Yes, It absolutely is the target audience if I’m reading what’s been outed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So its better to just ignore the turnaround times that they promised to meet? PSA is admittedly months behind. You don't think people are upset about that? Maybe you and i are seeing different posts, but that certainly isn't my take. And, at the least, increasing the stated turnaround times would have the virtue of being somewhat honest.

I think if it takes 100 days to get cards back, people are going to be pissed even if PSA told them in advance it would take 100 days. They would be equally pissed at the change in stated time as at the failure to meet a shorter stated time. IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, It absolutely is the target audience if I’m reading what’s been outed.

We aren't reading the same threads then. Most of what I'm seeing is in a much lower range.

[Kenny Cole]

I think if it takes 100 days to get cards back, people are going to be pissed even if PSA told them in advance it would take 100 days. They would be equally pissed at the change as at the failure to meet a shorter stated time. IMO.

That's a dodge. If you sign up for 100 days, you can hope it comes earlier and be disappointed if it doesn't, but you have no real reason to be pissed. If you sign up for 30 days and it takes 100, yes, i think its fair to be pissed. That's not even close to the representation which was made.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a dodge. If you sign up for 100 days, you can hope it comes earlier and be disappointed if it doesn't, but you have no real reason to be pissed. If you sign up for 30 days and it takes 100, yes, i think its fair to be pissed. That's not even close to the representation which was made.

I think people care how long it takes, not if someone made a false representation. If PSA tomorrow doubled its stated turnaround times, I think people would go nuts. Just an opinion.

[Kenny Cole]

I think people care how long it takes, not if someone made a false representation. If PSA tomorrow doubled its stated turnaround times, I think people would go nuts. Just an opinion.

And they care how long it takes now. And part of the angst is that the length of time it is taking is substantially longer than people signed up for. That's what I am seeing and that is my opinion.

[Goudey77]

34:15 of the video CGC grader claims high dollar comics go through as many as 5 to 6 even 7 vintage graders under the review process. That indeed is getting your moneys worth.

[swarmee]

Look. Brent wants it both ways: prettier restored cards to give stickers to, and ever increasing card values. You don't get both of those without fraud, because disclosing the alterations leads to lower prices.
We already have AUTH-ALTERED flips to meet your requirements. Having more of them just means the fraudsters will buy more trimmed/restored cards to crack out, rough up, and resubmit as original.
It is up to the grading companies to catch these alterations. But PWCC should drop its defense of their tenets and eliminate them. Only after they've been ratified by the grading companies do they mean anything; but the TPGs would have to admit the King has no clothes first.

[benjulmag]

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

[T206Collector]

the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

+1.

I remember the first time I saw a number grade for an autograph — it was on a Ty Cobb signed check in a PSA/DNA holder at the White Plains Show maybe 10 years ago. It had an outrageous price tag because it was a PSA 10. To this day, I have never paid for a TPG to “grade the autograph” because all I care about is authentication. I can make my own decisions about whether a signature is beautiful, crisp, and clean, but I like an independent opinion on authenticity.

[ullmandds]

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

I also agree with this...OBJECTIVE INFO should be conveyed by an opinion on a card. The whole grading mentality and the registry have helped create the problems we have today.

Above all DISCLOSURE of whats been done to a card is PARAMOUNT.

[T206Collector]

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

I don't think people submit to SGC the high end modern cards where a lot of this is being outed. And I suspect that most card doctors want to get their cards into PSA slabs because for better or worse they sell for more.

[brad31]

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) To me this would embolden many more to trim cards. If there was a Trimmed 8 that sold for 50% of a regular 8 - then the card doctors can be more bold. The risk of trimming a 5 and it possibly being detected and going to an altered holder is a deterrent. It is possible to lose money if the TPG detects the alteration. Now it could be break even if detected and a huge gain if not detected.

2) Comic book grading has never made sense to me. While not a collector - what if my favorite art from the book were on page 5, 9 and 11 of a comic book. I am paying all this money and never even seeing those pages on my book. Are these books scanned and retained somewhere page by page so you can actually see what you are buying? Makes sense that they need to take more time and get it right because unlike with cards you cannot see the majority of it with your own eyes.

To me the TPGs need to find a way to examine the card edges better and finding ways to detect trimming. If that takes hiring more people and giving them more time it is their duty to do so. If some people turn these cards in and they actually honor their guarantee then hopefully they can use those cards to find a way to find and train on what they missed. Unfortunately I do not see this as what will happen.

My prediction is it goes the way of the comic book. Way easier to error on the side of caution when you grade the trimmed card. This way min size cards will get into trimmed holders - they tighten standards on size - change color labels so key cards have to be graded again into the new conserved and “original” holder. Collectors over time have to bite the bullet and pay thousands of dollars to get key cards into “original” holders with cards in the current red holder selling at a discount in the marketplace.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

[frankbmd]

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

Opaque slabs for trading cards would be the equivalent in our hobby and would allow Registry collectors to focus more clearly on the flip.;)

Therefore if you can't see it, the whole point of a trading card is defeated, no?

[Gobucsmagic74]

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

This^

[steve B]

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

[steve B]

Here is how another hobby handles an alteration.

This was I think 3 months getting a certificate, at $35. I didn't know the cancel was fake, but the PF did. I'm still very happy with it, as it's a new discovery. (Not my discovery, but I believe this was the first copy certified) I don't know if they needed it, but I sent a copy of the article identifying this as a foreign entry along with it.

The fake cancel may have been added for a couple reasons. The stamp may have had damaged gum, or been stuck down so the gum was removed. A nice used copy probably sells faster than an unused copy that's got a problem like no gum. (decent price reduction). It's also possible that there's a very light cancel in a common color, and the blue fake was added to increase the value( decent addition to catalog value for a blue cancel)

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=25804

[steve B]

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

[Fuddjcal]

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

Yeah, Brent Mastro, would love to continue to mature his relationship Edward Scissorhands. He is full of S, I mean hot air. I have seen him blabber mouthing, but has not done 1 THING he said he would as of yet. He is an idiot, a picked scab, IMHO until he makes a move and it is made public.

[Fuddjcal]

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

and for guys like Brent Mastro to STOP what he is doing by cozying up to known scumbag losers, like his pal and good customer, Edward Scissorhands

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Maybe one of the card doctors' great grandkids will be able to turn it back into a 10.

[Fuddjcal]

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Collectors Edge, now there's a company I forgot about already, now i remember a little from the early 90s.

[steve B]

Collectors Edge, now there's a company I forgot about already, now i remember a little from the early 90s.

I didn't say it was rare modern stuff...…..:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

I remember them and Wild Card football from that timeframe.

[steve B]

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.

As the cardstock decays, it gives off acid, which, inside a holder stays in the cadstock and promotes more decay/acid.

I've believed for years that the holders used for grading will actually damage some cards over a lengthy period of time. I asked SGC how sealed theirs were, and the answer was that they pretty much aren't. Will there be enough air transfer to vent the acidic air? Maybe. I've wanted to slab a card along with a strip of litmus paper, but can't imagine any of the companies allowing that.

[steve B]

I remember them and Wild Card football from that timeframe.

I collected both pretty avidly.

Now that you mention it, I should check and see if the browning ones are the wild card.... darn, forget the name. The thick embossed foilish rookie set that finally ended them because it sort of wasn't licensed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I collected both pretty avidly.

Now that you mention it, I should check and see if the browning ones are the wild card.... darn, forget the name. The thick embossed foilish rookie set that finally ended them because it sort of wasn't licensed.

Was that Action Packed maybe?

[bounce]

But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?
Is this Brent? :) I realize this is the internet, so I didn't hear you say it, but "can we do it constructively" probably isn't the best phrasing. Just saying...

This discussion has been going on for decades now? It isn't "new", it's just become more common in the recent weeks, and more public.

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.
Again, not new. These things have been going on for decades as well. Restored/altered cards were getting through the TPGs from the very beginning. The hobby isn't more vulnerable than any other time, again it's just become more public thanks to the internet and hobbyists pointing out all the parties involved and how they are/may be linked to each other.

Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?
Also, not new as it already exists (at least at PSA). There is a "Restored" label to go on flips.

But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?
Who in the art world is official standard setter of "restoration"? :)

I don't collect comics, but I am at least generally aware of CGC and their grading. I'm also pretty sure that they disclose a fair bit more any restoration/alteration work they see on the comics, no? It's frequently a list of those things, whereas in cards it's just the one word on the flip.

I'm also going to go on record as saying that cards and comics are NOT similar collectibles. Comics are multiple pages attached together in some manner, much thinner stock normally than cards, it's generally a more "elaborate" collectible than a single card that's a few inches each direction, and damage to inside pages affects the grade, not just the cover and the back.

One last item. This is off the CGC site, and it's identified as a "restoration" technique that would get called out on a slab. Maybe I misunderstood the video discussion, but certainly didn't sound to me like "cleaning" was something that was likely to get called out on a slab unless it "smelled" of something, in which case it became alteration.

Again, I don't think cards and comics are particularly similar, just simply pointing out that even with these "mature" markets and their definitions the card "leaders" aren't even being consistent with those. Who should we believe then?


CLEANED (lightened). An aqueous process to lighten the paper color or remove soluble acids, often using chemical oxidation, solvents, or water. This process is sometimes called cleaned and pressed or C&P. Common chemicals used to lighten paper include benzene, acetone, xylene, sodium hypochlorite, hydrogen peroxide, chloramine-T, chlorine dioxide, sodium borohydrate, etc.

[Goudey77]

"can we do it constructively" probably isn't the best phrasing. Just saying...

This discussion has been going on for decades now? It isn't "new", it's just become more common in the recent weeks, and more public.



David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

[steve B]

Was that Action Packed maybe?

No, had to google them

Wild card superchromix rookies.

That may be the set having problems, I'll have to check. If it's not them, then it's a hunt through loads of boxes, a hunt I'm not enthusiastic about.

[drcy]

Real, useful conservation of trading cards, especially old ones, would involve them being deacidified by putting them in a solution. That's actually something good that could be done conservation-wise with fragile cards and photos, and could be something held up as reasonable standard practice. Conservation in the art world is done to preserve/protect the item for posterity.

I've never stated that restoration and conservation are bad. And grading card companies labelling this work (if they can identify it) seems perfectly reasonable philosophy. It should be done right now if it could. If that's what Goudey is talking about, I agree. But the key is any work on the card has to be disclosed.

"Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less."

I work in philosophy (logic), have a published peer-reviewed university philosophy textbook and am a lifetime member of the international philosophy society at Oxford, and I just have to note for the logic-record that that quoted line makes absolutely no sense. It makes anti-sense.

[rhettyeakley]

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal?

I have largely stayed out of this discussion as it all makes me sick. S*** has been going on in this hobby for decades and it all sucks. The spin that Brent is attempting right now is utterly ridiculous... if he didn’t know what was going on to some degree or another he was voluntarily living in ignorance. That being said PSA/BGS also are at fault for their inability to detect some of the most obviously trimmed vintage cards I have ever seen.

The hobby has determined (long before Brent/Betsy/Martin ever even thought about it) what is and isn’t okay. Yes there is some gray area as to what the hard line in the sand is but there are many things that are now and have always been not okay (and everyone mentioned in this and the other threads know what those are despite the spin they are trying to put forth). Everyone involved bears responsibility for the current situation despite what Martin would have us believe...

-PSA/BGS sucks at detecting the altered cards that have been submitted. They bear responsibility for that fact.
-PWCC (including all involved in that entity) suck at detecting the obvious shenanigans going on with their auctions (that or they are willfully involved, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt here). They bear responsibility for this, what they have and are doing IS NOT ENOUGH! Their attempts to reshape the narrative, redefine hobby standards, claim ignorance are comical to watch.

[Goudey77]

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

Simple response to your thoughts Peter. Stagnation. Enjoy your message board to continue venting while nothing changes and all we hear about are controversial topics.

At some point TPG's need to recognize restored cards as did CGC. This includes publishing guidelines for tolerances of conservation vs restoration. This is exactly what PWCC is trying to convey in their tenets. Else it will always be a taboo topic with hidden motives. I'll also refer back to my comment about TPG's needing to give more effort in distinguishing the two. Thus the idea of creating a "purple" label of their own like CGC does.

Most comic book collectors in the silver age and modern book era do not want "restored" purple label books. Most golden age collectors have no choice if they want to own a key book. But at least CGC openly recognizes the differences.

I provided ideas with examples from other TPG's from the comic industry.
I already have a profession so it is not my job to make the change. But I can certainly be an advocate for it.

I'm open ears to constructive ideas. Complaining and stagnation is not my idea of constructive.

[steve B]

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

He does bring up some tough questions though.

While I don't "want" a restored card, I have a very wide range of what I think is "acceptable" as far as condition goes. Much of that to me is related to the price.*
I have cards that I know are altered, as well as some pretty nice originals, and some real beaters.
I think if someone had for instance a green Cobb that had been a total wreck but had borders added and some scuffs etc fixed, and it was cheap enough, I might be interested. It would have to be way less than even an original beater.

I can also see someone wanting a restored card to display with another item, like while framing a jersey or autograph.

Realistically, I think we have to acknowledge that alterations, either fraudulent or well meant will always happen. People colored the edges of 71T when commons were going for a few cents each. (Badly, but still... )

If the grading companies got much better at catching it, and conveyed the alteration in any degree of detail, I think that's a positive step.

Our hobby does need to do some growing up. No other major hobby I can think of (Maybe comics? ) gets by without some national organization that supposedly has some sway over dealers and ethics and what is/is not acceptable. If we don't have one, dealers who think they're big enough will define that themselves.

*In 1978 I found half of a card I needed in the street on my way home. I kept it in my collection for about 2 years before I happened across a complete one. At the time I could have replaced it for 5 cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC doesn't even understand what conservation is. They misuse the word throughout.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm not seeing anything necessary or positive in it. What we need, as I've said, is for TPGs to improve and for card doctors and their enablers to be prosecuted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He does bring up some tough questions though.

While I don't "want" a restored card, I have a very wide range of what I think is "acceptable" as far as condition goes. Much of that to me is related to the price.*
I have cards that I know are altered, as well as some pretty nice originals, and some real beaters.
I think if someone had for instance a green Cobb that had been a total wreck but had borders added and some scuffs etc fixed, and it was cheap enough, I might be interested. It would have to be way less than even an original beater.

I can also see someone wanting a restored card to display with another item, like while framing a jersey or autograph.

Realistically, I think we have to acknowledge that alterations, either fraudulent or well meant will always happen. People colored the edges of 71T when commons were going for a few cents each. (Badly, but still... )

If the grading companies got much better at catching it, and conveyed the alteration in any degree of detail, I think that's a positive step.

Our hobby does need to do some growing up. No other major hobby I can think of (Maybe comics? ) gets by without some national organization that supposedly has some sway over dealers and ethics and what is/is not acceptable. If we don't have one, dealers who think they're big enough will define that themselves.

*In 1978 I found half of a card I needed in the street on my way home. I kept it in my collection for about 2 years before I happened across a complete one. At the time I could have replaced it for 5 cents.

I have no issue with grading companies getting better. That would be huge. And yes, some self-regulation would be great too. I do have an issue with changing the rules of the game to somehow legitimize a world of fraud. Particularly considering the source, and I don't mean Martin.

[Goudey77]

Real, useful conservation of trading cards, especially old ones, would involve them being deacidified by putting them in a solution. That's actually something good that could be done conservation-wise, and might be wise for photos and other items.

I've never stated that restoration and conservation are bad. And grading card companies labelling this work (if they can identify it) seems perfectly reasonable philosophy. It should be done right now if it could. If that's what Goudey is talking about, I agree. But the key is any work on the card has to be disclosed.

"Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less."

I work in philosophy (logic), have a published peer-reviewed university philosophy textbook and am a lifetime member of the international philosophy society at Oxford, and I just have to note for the logic-record that that quoted line makes absolutely no sense. It makes anti-sense.

DRCY,
I do appreciate your comments so far. Very useful examples that you provided.
As for the comment about having no incentive for card doctors. If we keep it the way it is today the incentive to get a altered card past the TPG is profitable. If the TPG moves to a CGC model and can recognize restorations/conservations and place them in a separate "restored" label then the profit is marginal.

Bottom line though. TPG's in our card hobby need to step up their services.
Change is needed regardless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

DRCY,
I do appreciate your comments so far. Very useful examples that you provided.
As for the comment about having no incentive for card doctors. If we keep it the way it is today the incentive to get a altered card past the TPG is profitable. If the TPG moves to a CGC model and can recognize restorations/conservations and place them in a separate "restored" label then the profit is marginal.

Bottom line though. TPG's in our card hobby need to step up their services.
Change is needed regardless.

You're totally wrong IMO. As long as there is a large price differential between original and restored there is a huge incentive to try to deceive, to get the original not the restored designation. Why can't you see this, everyone else can. You keep asserting it in mantra like fashion and just ignore the logic on the other side.

[Goudey77]

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal?


Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Explain to me please why, if there is a large price gap between original and restored, there would not continue to be a huge incentive to alter cards to try to get the original designation as opposed to the restored one. I'm listening.

[drcy]

You're totally wrong IMO. As long as there is a large price differential between original and restored there is a huge incentive to try to deceive, to get the original not the restored designation. Why can't you see this, everyone else can. You keep asserting it in mantra like fashion and just ignore the logic on the other side.

I think he sees it, and always saw it.

Rhett: "I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company."

That would be a logical guess.

Or, as the old guy on Seinfeld said, "I may die tomorrow, but I wasn't born yesterday."

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think he sees it, and always saw it.

It would seem, as it seemed to earlier poster, that he is here posting on PWCC's behalf.

As the old guy on Seinfeld said, "I may die tomorrow, but I wasn't born yesterday."

I'll take him at his word that he's not affiliated, but he isn't, at least so far, making much sense on his no incentive point, to me anyhow.

[rhettyeakley]

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Why then do you seemingly not hold PWCC responsible in any way. Every post you have made has defended them either directly or indirectly and then proceed to deflect all responsibility to the TPG industry? You understand that they can both suck at their jobs simultaneously, right?

I understand the sentiment behind your posts but they seem to be obviously thinly veiled defenses of PWCC.

[drcy]

I'll take him at his word that he's not affiliated, but he isn't, at least so far, making much sense on his no incentive point, to me anyhow.

It's not just you anyhow. There's no more further need to debate or discuss that that line of reasoning makes no sense. I think everyone here knows it makes no sense. Of course, it makes no sense. Or as I say when someone states a fact that is so obvious to everyone a fact that there's no need for the person to have even stated it: "And the sky is blue and Austin is the capital of Texas."

Now, the argument that the baseball card hobby should "mature" concerning conservation/alteration/labeling, that is a fair argument to which I can agree. Restoration (disclosed and labeled as restoration, and receiving a grade of AUTH) actually has become more accepted in the hobby in recent years. Collecting-wise, I'm not interested in restored or altered cards, but there are others in the hobby who are okay with it (when it's disclosed and the price is right), and the major auction houses has auctioned (disclosed as) restored cards. In cases, restoring and conserving a card is prudent. Obviously, the hobby 'maturing' would have to start, and only can start, with grading companies being able to identify alterations and conservation, which may be a high starting hurdle, because, despite what Goudey says, people WILL still try to sneak alterations past graders.

Here's a hobby 'maturing' rule for consideration: All trading cards that have been restored or conserved have to be clearly and permanently marked on the card itself. It may be a visible-light mark, or, if people don't like that idea, a black light identifiable mark. Any restored or conserved card that does not have such mark is automatically considered breaking the hobby rules and ethical standards written in black and white.

30 plus years ago, there was a guy who restored old cards, usually Goudeys, by building up the corners with foreign paper and glue. And apparently, he did an excellent job.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not just you anyhow. There's no more further need to debate or discuss that that line of reasoning makes no sense. I think everyone here knows it makes no sense. Of course, it makes no sense.

It seems to me if anything, legitimizing "restored" would increase the incentive to doctor, because the worst case becomes something that has a decent residual value instead of a rejected and tainted card.

[Goudey77]

You're totally wrong IMO. As long as there is a large price differential between original and restored there is a huge incentive to try to deceive, to get the original not the restored designation. Why can't you see this, everyone else can. You keep asserting it in mantra like fashion and just ignore the logic on the other side.

Peter,

I get what you are saying. I won't argue that price gap. But this comes down to better analysis of cards and identifying restorations. Also defining tolerances so we can clearly address before and after photos popping up on message boards claiming fraud. TPG's simply need to take a stance. PWCC tenets did this.

CGC took a stance and it became a big part of their everyday operations. Who here questions card TPG's ability to do the same.

Ask a comic book veteran if they think a comic restoration expert can slip a book past CGC graders into the un-restored blue label.

Ask a sports card hobby veteran the same question about PSA or SGC.

[Republicaninmass]

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal.

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

[rhettyeakley]

Rhett,

Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Unless I am missing something most of this information has pretty recently come to light so I think we are jumping the gun concluding that we are “doing nothing” because only time will tell if nothing is done. IMO bringing up all this information is the opposite of “doing nothing” and the only one that seems to have a problem with all these revelations is PWCC and (inexplicably) you. You seem to want to redirect the narrative to a similar point but not really what we are all talking about right now. This conversation is a good one but probably not one that should be initiated by the biggest PWCC apologist in the known universe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

I get what you are saying. I won't argue that price gap. But this comes down to better analysis of cards and identifying restorations. Also defining tolerances so we can clearly address before and after photos popping up on message boards claiming fraud. TPG's simply need to take a stance. PWCC tenets did this.

CGC took a stance and it became a big part of their everyday operations. Who here questions card TPG's ability to do the same.

Ask a comic book veteran if they think a comic restoration expert can slip a book past CGC graders into the un-restored blue label.

Ask a sports card hobby veteran the same question about PSA or SGC.

I think PSA's current standards reflect, with some gray area perhaps around the edges, the collective hobby ethos of what is and is not acceptable. I see no need for any change to that. I don't think PWCC's proposals to change standards, leaving aside my personal sense of their disingenuousness, are helpful. The key is to improve detection and discourage card doctors and their enablers. Anyhow, I keep saying this so I'll stop.

[rhettyeakley]

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

LOL, I certainly noticed that the first time I saw his post, I just want him to be honest.

[Goudey77]

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

That's Lake Oswego Ted. You get the purple label for that one. :D

[Goudey77]

I think PSA's current standards reflect, with some gray area perhaps around the edges, the collective hobby ethos of what is and is not acceptable. I see no need for any change to that. I don't think PWCC's proposals to change standards, leaving aside my personal sense of their disingenuousness, are helpful. The key is to improve detection and discourage card doctors and their enablers. Anyhow, I keep saying this so I'll stop.

Glad you finally agree to what i've been saying Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Glad you finally agree to what i've been saying Peter.

I've said this till I'm blue in the face all along, I have no idea what you're talking about but whatever.

[drcy]

Duly note that I live in and am posting from the Pacific Northwest :)

[bnorth]

Duly note that I live in and am posting from the Pacific Northwest :)

If we are fully disclosing, I was in Lake Oswego a month ago and a month and a half ago. Did not see anyone associated with PWCC as far as I know.:) Didn't see the Gangster from West Linn either.:(

[drcy]

It seems to me if anything, legitimizing "restored" would increase the incentive to doctor, because the worst case becomes something that has a decent residual value instead of a rejected and tainted card.

I think there are cases where restoration have been reasonable (a torn card where the tear will be getting worse with time, a card where half is missing or has major damage to the central graphics), but have always been of the sentiment that restored cards should the rare exceptions. I believe it should be the norm, as it is, that alterations are considered detrimental to the card, lowers the value and the hobby should be against it.

Your point, and what I just said, may go against the idea of graders being able to label conservation/restoration, but just label all alterations as altered AUTH. If they get into the conservation/restoration etc labels, then it may make the practices seem more legitimate and acceptable, when restoration should be the rare exception for specific reasons. You may have just convinced me that graders should simply label altered cards as altered AUTH. If an AUTH card was restored for good reason, the owner of the card can make his case-- but the card doesn't get a special label.

Graders are actually by name condition graders, and they should say "We condition grade (assign numbers) only cards that are unaltered, and the cards have been altered. You people can debate the merits of restoration and conservation or what types of alterations are okay-- fine and dandy--, but we are strictly in the technical business of authenticating identity, condition grading unaltered cards and identifying cards that have been altered."

[bounce]

At some point TPG's need to recognize restored cards as did CGC.

Martin - They already do, why do you keep saying this? PSA has multiple different options, including "restored" which they can use.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

They also have published standards for grading, see this link.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/gradingstandards#cards

They probably haven't really dealt with the definitions as well as they could, however:
N2 - Evidence of restoration - When a card's paper stock appears to have been built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.
N5 - Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.
N7 - Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.
AA - Authentic Altered - This means that while PSA is certifying that the item is genuine, due to the existence of alterations, the item cannot receive a numerical grade. The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning. Items receiving the "Authentic Altered" designation, in our opinion, are genuine with the presence of some type of alteration. This is done on a case-by-case basis only, and must be notated on the submission form at the time of submission.

As I've continued to state, just be consistent and use them.

For whatever reason, that Wagner got I believe the N2 - Restored. Why it's not AA - Authentic Altered I have no idea, considering it had recoloring, restoration and cleaning done to it. Are we to accept that because the card wasn't submitted on the form to be AA that's why I ended up in a N2? Or is it because "restored" just sounds better than "altered", especially when you're talking about a multi-hundred thousand $ card?

The 52 Mantle that's been discussed has clear evidence of at least being cleaned. There's speculation of other work to it as well, including trimming and recoloring, but I don't know that I have seen sufficient evidence to say exactly what that is - but the circumstantial evidence of something else besides cleaning being done to it is pretty compelling. Regardless, it got a 4.5 grade instead of say N7. Brent has brought up that he's never seen N7 used, I don't think I have either so seems he has a valid point on that. However, in hindsight, something was done to that card, it was cracked and resubbed, whether or not you can actually SEE evidence of something done to it in hand the pictures prove something was done. PSA should reslab this thing at a minimum, and Brent needs to stop pretending the pictures don't exist.


And finally, regarding making "examples"...I certainly don't FEEL like you made an example of me or any of my posts. As a matter of fact, I think you've added credence to much of what myself and others have pointed out, so thank you for that.

You and I do agree on a few things (like what the TPGs can and should do), on quite a number of others we don't. I think I've been pretty open and direct in expressing the basis upon which my disagreement is based. If you feel like that's not "constructive", so be it - I feel pretty good you're in the minority in that view.

Maybe I'm just not "mature" enough...fortunately I have the card hobby to fall back into. :)

[Fuddjcal]

Martin - They already do, why do you keep saying this? PSA has multiple different options, including "restored" which they can use.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

They also have published standards for grading, see this link.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/gradingstandards#cards

They probably haven't really dealt with the definitions as well as they could, however:
N2 - Evidence of restoration - When a card's paper stock appears to have been built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.
N5 - Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.
N7 - Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.
AA - Authentic Altered - This means that while PSA is certifying that the item is genuine, due to the existence of alterations, the item cannot receive a numerical grade. The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning. Items receiving the "Authentic Altered" designation, in our opinion, are genuine with the presence of some type of alteration. This is done on a case-by-case basis only, and must be notated on the submission form at the time of submission.

As I've continued to state, just be consistent and use them.

For whatever reason, that Wagner got I believe the N2 - Restored. Why it's not AA - Authentic Altered I have no idea, considering it had recoloring, restoration and cleaning done to it. Are we to accept that because the card wasn't submitted on the form to be AA that's why I ended up in a N2? Or is it because "restored" just sounds better than "altered", especially when you're talking about a multi-hundred thousand $ card?

The 52 Mantle that's been discussed has clear evidence of at least being cleaned. There's speculation of other work to it as well, including trimming and recoloring, but I don't know that I have seen sufficient evidence to say exactly what that is - but the circumstantial evidence of something else besides cleaning being done to it is pretty compelling. Regardless, it got a 4.5 grade instead of say N7. Brent has brought up that he's never seen N7 used, I don't think I have either so seems he has a valid point on that. However, in hindsight, something was done to that card, it was cracked and resubbed, whether or not you can actually SEE evidence of something done to it in hand the pictures prove something was done. PSA should reslab this thing at a minimum, and Brent needs to stop pretending the pictures don't exist.


And finally, regarding making "examples"...I certainly don't FEEL like you made an example of me or any of my posts. As a matter of fact, I think you've added credence to much of what myself and others have pointed out, so thank you for that.

You and I do agree on a few things (like what the TPGs can and should do), on quite a number of others we don't. I think I've been pretty open and direct in expressing the basis upon which my disagreement is based. If you feel like that's not "constructive", so be it - I feel pretty good you're in the minority in that view.

Maybe I'm just not "mature" enough...fortunately I have the card hobby to fall back into. :)

I would love a card restored like that! As long as it's disclosed from the beginning and not an attempt to fraud, which is what Brent Mastro is doing now.

[jchcollins]

All this talk about hobby practices maturing to be more like comics and the insuation that being more accepting of alterations will also make it easy to properly identify them is great, but I think this is all pointless if there is not also a market at large who would not only be accepting of this, but demanding of it - and at least right now I don't think that is the case. Grading companies were started ostensibly because of alteration problems and things going undetected in the 1990's right? The difference is that they were just supposed to reject such cards and not attempt to understand what had been done to them. The result, rather quickly was TPG's establishing incentives for cards that not only were not altered, but were in super-high grade. By going down this road so quickly, they made truly altered cards ultra-black sheep, and quickly - it would seem at least thoretically - lost any true incentive not to try to cut corners so they would be able to avoid giving out these designations. Because obviously continually doing so, even if it was the right thing to do - is going to be bad for your business as a TPG.

So what are we saying, the goal is the same as it was earlier to prevent / crack down on alterations - but um, it didn't work the first time, so now we need to go back and embrace a certain degree of permissable alterations so we can get better about calling things out? Again, ok - but I don't think outside of concerned true collectors on forums like this one - we likely aren't anywhere near a majority - that anyone will give much of a damn. It's not going to be a market reality. As we've said before, the vast majority of the deep-pocketed investing and even high-end collecting world is going to continue along an ends-justify-the-means trail and be happy with their ridiculously high-graded vintage cards in slabs whether or not they were trimmed or restored or what have you.

So at the end of the day until we see a dramatic shift in the overall marketplace, I think that TPG's are useful tools, only - upon which not nearly so much weight should be assigned. It's an opinion of an examination, nothing more. Notice that while we lobby for change, be it with the TPG's or an entity like PWCC - we all still seem to approach the matter of slabbing as a "finality." Not just something that happened to the card in it's lifespan and was then moved-on from. No buddy, this card is now a PSA 8 for life! Hehe. You've got to admit we do that here, too. If we could somehow get around that in the honest discussion of what types of weight to assign to what issues, I think the hobby would be a lot better off.

[Goudey77]

Good post jhcollins!

Seems these challenging ideas/questions on threads are mostly click bait for the naysayers.

So I Appreciate your articulated thoughts on the subject.

[drcy]

So at the end of the day until we see a dramatic shift in the overall marketplace, I think that TPG's are useful tools, only - upon which not nearly so much weight should be assigned.

Agree. Obviously the same with TPA autograph opinions. They're independent opinions.

[Goudey77]

Martin - They already do, why do you keep saying this? PSA has multiple different options, including "restored" which they can use.

Maybe I'm just not "mature" enough...fortunately I have the card hobby to fall back into. :)

My point is that TPG’s like PSA as you pointed out could use some changes to the way they define, address and label these various scenarios.
While I appreciate a good old “restored” T206 Wagner slab, it’s archaic in comparison to what CGC has done so far.

I don’t want to repeat myself I just want to make it a point that we could learn from other sectors of collectibles.

Watch the CGC interview you’d be amazed at their openness and knowledge on the matter. Card TPG’s are very tight lipped and seem to take every incident case by case. There is no clear line in the sand. Thus a need for a stance and tenets of sort like PWCC has done. Crap on the idea all you want but someone needs to be a voice if TPG’s won’t speak up.

[Goudey77]

I’ll post it again. Very informative CGC interview exposing the possibilities of defining conservation and restoration.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

[irv]

I’ll post it again. Very informative CGC interview exposing the possibilities of defining conservation and restoration.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

Fairly new here, constantly praising PWCC? Nah, your not a plug for Brent at all.
I'm not really sure what makes others think you are? :rolleyes:

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My point is that TPG’s like PSA as you pointed out could use some changes to the way they define, address and label these various scenarios.
While I appreciate a good old “restored” T206 Wagner slab, it’s archaic in comparison to what CGC has done so far.

I don’t want to repeat myself I just want to make it a point that we could learn from other sectors of collectibles.

Watch the CGC interview you’d be amazed at their openness and knowledge on the matter. Card TPG’s are very tight lipped and seem to take every incident case by case. There is no clear line in the sand. Thus a need for a stance and tenets of sort like PWCC has done. Crap on the idea all you want but someone needs to be a voice if TPG’s won’t speak up.

See it's posts like this that make one question your motives. You view PWCC as some sort of savior. Many of us view them as a company that's trying to spin their less than ethical actions of the past. Does that mean we find the TPG's blameless, of course not, but to basically say that PWCC is the solution to the TPG problem is...

...not sure I have the words.

[jchcollins]

Good post jhcollins!

Seems these challenging ideas/questions on threads are mostly click bait for the naysayers.

So I Appreciate your articulated thoughts on the subject.

Thank you. By the way I appreciate your insight on the comic hobby. I have always found grading of any type "interesting"; it's almost like a sub-hobby of mine. Instead of going after only cards in high grade - as is affordable I like to get examples of cards in all grades above poor and fair - in a better attempt to understand granding norms and trends. Even if some of the standards applied to comic books don't really translate to cards, it's great stuff to read about.

[Fuddjcal]

All this talk about hobby practices maturing to be more like comics and the insuation that being more accepting of alterations will also make it easy to properly identify them is great, but I think this is all pointless if there is not also a market at large who would not only be accepting of this, but demanding of it - and at least right now I don't think that is the case. Grading companies were started ostensibly because of alteration problems and things going undetected in the 1990's right? The difference is that they were just supposed to reject such cards and not attempt to understand what had been done to them. The result, rather quickly was TPG's establishing incentives for cards that not only were not altered, but were in super-high grade. By going down this road so quickly, they made truly altered cards ultra-black sheep, and quickly - it would seem at least thoretically - lost any true incentive not to try to cut corners so they would be able to avoid giving out these designations. Because obviously continually doing so, even if it was the right thing to do - is going to be bad for your business as a TPG.

So what are we saying, the goal is the same as it was earlier to prevent / crack down on alterations - but um, it didn't work the first time, so now we need to go back and embrace a certain degree of permissable alterations so we can get better about calling things out? Again, ok - but I don't think outside of concerned true collectors on forums like this one - we likely aren't anywhere near a majority - that anyone will give much of a damn. It's not going to be a market reality. As we've said before, the vast majority of the deep-pocketed investing and even high-end collecting world is going to continue along an ends-justify-the-means trail and be happy with their ridiculously high-graded vintage cards in slabs whether or not they were trimmed or restored or what have you.

So at the end of the day until we see a dramatic shift in the overall marketplace, I think that TPG's are useful tools, only - upon which not nearly so much weight should be assigned. It's an opinion of an examination, nothing more. Notice that while we lobby for change, be it with the TPG's or an entity like PWCC - we all still seem to approach the matter of slabbing as a "finality." Not just something that happened to the card in it's lifespan and was then moved-on from. No buddy, this card is now a PSA 8 for life! Hehe. You've got to admit we do that here, too. If we could somehow get around that in the honest discussion of what types of weight to assign to what issues, I think the hobby would be a lot better off.

always appreciate your viewpoint JC

[Goudey77]

See it's posts like this that make one question your motives. You view PWCC as some sort of savior. Many of us view them as a company that's trying to spin their less than ethical actions of the past. Does that mean we find the TPG's blameless, of course not, but to basically say that PWCC is the solution to the TPG problem is...

...not sure I have the words.

Does everyone on here have an agenda or motive? I certainly do not.
I have opinions on specific topics that may align with what PWCC is trying to convey in their communication. If your opinions differ then cool. We should still be able to get along without questioning motives. It is what it is.

Public shaming, defamatory remarks and accusations on a message board is not cool. If you want to be vocal about something take it offline and talk it through with whomever you have a problem with. You might even have a new perspective after the conversation.

Man up and defend your position. Not hide behind a message board moniker.

If anyone wants to reach out and speak to me on subjects i'd be happy to talk. I'm an open book and have no agenda other than talk hobby, meet new people who share the same interest.

If any of you are on Instagram you can look me up @Goudey77 which I use strictly for hobby related networking. DM me or call me. I'd like to chat it up with those who are most passionate about subjects like this.

[Goudey77]

My response is not directed toward Aquarian Sports. Just a general response to the question about my motive. Which many of you have pointed out.

[Fuddjcal]

My response is not directed toward Aquarian Sports. Just a general response to the question about my motive. Which many of you have pointed out.

I don't questions your motives, I just question what the HELL you could be thinking in regards to standing up for a well known and now documented fraud artist? So deep in bed with several guys that spin doctored cards through him back and forth, flip, cut, flip Conserve, cut flip REPEAT until the cards look like Mini's.

We don't agree that'e true. You should really try one small thing...OPEN YOUR EYES...if you look hard enough maybe you can see it also.;)

[Goudey77]

I don't questions your motives, I just question what the HELL you could be thinking in regards to standing up for a well known and now documented fraud artist? So deep in bed with several guys that spin doctored cards through him back and forth, flip, cut, flip Conserve, cut flip REPEAT until the cards look like Mini's.

We don't agree that'e true. You should really try one small thing...OPEN YOUR EYES...if you look hard enough maybe you can see it also.;)

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

[calvindog]

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

Chuck seems to be pretty firmly against fraud in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One man's fraud is another man's evolution.

[Dpeck100]

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?


PWCC has 7,769 active listings at this moment. The reality is there are way more people like you that have had positive dealings with them and will continue to bid on their auctions.

There are plenty of corporations that have taken social stances that I don't agree with but it doesn't stop me from shopping there.

Someone doesn't have to agree with all of the decisions that Brent and crew are making to still be a customer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC has 7,769 active listings at this moment. The reality is there are way more people like you that have had positive dealings with them and will continue to bid on their auctions.

There are plenty of corporations that have taken social stances that I don't agree with but it doesn't stop me from shopping there.

Someone doesn't have to agree with all of the decisions that Brent and crew are making to still be a customer.

Yes but that doesn't really prove much, people would bid in an ISIS auction if it was a card they needed.

[frankbmd]

I was born near Oswego, ...............New York. Do I get a sticker?

[Dpeck100]

Yes but that doesn't really prove much, people would bid in an ISIS auction if it was a card they needed.

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

Yeah people especially on BO are a bit giddy to say the least. Shorting CLCT stock and such. I'd like to see some constructive change and especially deterrence of card doctoring and enabling, as well as improvement in grading, but I don't think it's apocalypse now.

[Dpeck100]

Yeah people especially on BO are a bit giddy to say the least. Shorting CLCT stock and such. I'd like to see some constructive change and especially deterrence of card doctoring and enabling, as well as improvement in grading, but I don't think it's apocalypse now.


CLCT cleared the number we discussed and is into the gap and the stock is 11% higher plus it went ex dividend since this ordeal started. The small caps or IWM are breaking down yet this is making new highs daily. The company has gained close to 20 million in market cap. The charts suggest it is going higher. Obviously time will tell but this ordeal is not going to be anywhere close to as big as what people on BO are hoping for. The backlog of cards is the highest in company history at over 700,000.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


I think everyone would like to see things clean up some but this hobby has dealt with fraudsters way before I bought my first pack of cards in 1985. Most of us just know it is out of our control and we just have to do the best we can while we swim with sharks.

[drcy]

An interesting situation, that would have a practical effect, is if there were enough problems with fakes that eBay banned the seller.

That's a situation where collector complaints and chatboard evidence would have material effect.

Another situation would be if, believing the seller was knowingly submitting altered cards, PSA stopped grading cards for them. That would also be a good PR stance of PSA standing up against the issue.

If either of both of those situations happened that would be a hobby-shaking sign of real powers that be taking the issue seriously and doing something of material effect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

CLCT cleared the number we discussed and is into the gap and the stock is 11% higher plus it went ex dividend since this ordeal started. The small caps or IWM are breaking down yet this is making new highs daily. The company has gained close to 20 million in market cap. The charts suggest it is going higher. Obviously time will tell but this ordeal is not going to be anywhere close to as big as what people on BO are hoping for. The backlog of cards is the highest in company history at over 700,000.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


I think everyone would like to see things clean up some but this hobby has dealt with fraudsters way before I bought my first pack of cards in 1985. Most of us just know it is out of our control and we just have to do the best we can while we swim with sharks.

The volume of course is part of the problem -- they're obviously putting a premium on speed over accuracy because otherwise the backlog gets even worse -= but from their perspective it may be the right tradeoff.

[Peter_Spaeth]

An interesting situation, that would have a practical effect, is if there were enough problems with fakes that eBay banned the seller.

That's a situation where collector complaints and chatboard evidence would have material effect.

Another situation would be if, believing the seller was knowingly submitting altered cards, PSA stopped grading cards for them. That would also be a good PR stance of PSA standing up against the issue.

If either of both of those situations happened that would be a hobby-shaking sign of real powers that be taking the issue seriously and doing something of material effect.

I am sure PSA has a list. But it's not a company that is going to talk about it.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

[Goudey77]

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

[Goudey77]

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

Not if it spurs or assists law enforcement, civil suits, etc.

[drcy]

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

The phrase is "The fox guarding the henhouse."

[Peter_Spaeth]

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

[drcy]

"What kind of a topsy-turvy world do we live in, where heroes are cast as villains, brave men as cowards?"-- George Costanza from the classic Seinfeld scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOhNlt4Nsj0)

[Peter_Spaeth]

The world has gone mad today

And good's bad today,

And black's white today,

And day's night today,

Cole Porter

[ullmandds]

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

Touche!

[Goudey77]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

[Republicaninmass]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

[Goudey77]

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

Good one Ted. Glad you chimed in. Happy Friday :)

[Republicaninmass]

Good one Ted. Glad you chimed in. Happy Friday :)No DM sent, Happy long weekend in Lake Oswego

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[calvindog]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

lolz

[Republicaninmass]

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.Of course not. Everyone knows they are too busy on Snapchat

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[rhettyeakley]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Say hi to Brent for us!

[Fuddjcal]

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

Nothing but posting what I know and how I feel about it. I'm also not buying anymore from PWCC, I'm also considering not buying another card PERIOD. That's what I'm doing. I don't really give a S*** if you agree with me or not. I have no motives. If I did I would be doing what you're doing. I don''t care about my lousy 100K collection. It means very little to me if I have to be honest. The truth however is golden and standing up with your pocket book is what I am all about. I have boycotted much bigger companies than this piss ant PWCC, believe me. That's my motive Martin, not to inflame you like a pack of hemorrhoids.

[perezfan]

If Leon is still looking for someone to speak at the net54 Banquet in Chicago, perhaps Chuck could do some stand-up. I know I would be entertained!

[irv]

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

And how did they get to be the most powerful seller in the entire hobby? If you take away all the doctored PSA 10's, Beckett 9.5's-10's and Pristines that have currently been discovered, and with more to likely to come yet, that they have sold, I would almost guarantee you they wouldn't be any larger than your average ebay seller.
These types of cards, as you should know, attract a large, broad audience and people/collectors/investors are drawn to the place(s) that sell these.

It's real simple, imo. This was the end goal of PWCC. Get to be the largest, most well known seller on Ebay by doing whatever it takes to get there and watch the money roll in.

[calvindog]

Just like Mastro.

[marzoumanian]

That's funny, Jeffrey. Thank you for making me laugh. I can't believe the passion here. Is it time to call a time out yet? Peace and love. Peace and love.

[calvindog]

Mark, you better finish your Mastro work and make some time for PWCC!

[Republicaninmass]

How about Disclosure vs. Concealment as defined by a court of law? The evidence is just sickening

[Goudey77]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

[drcy]

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Besides using the argument "Since restored cards are worth less than unaltered cards, no one would try to sneak a restored past the grader," explain how that would that put the subject to rest?

Upon second thought, nevermind.

[Goudey77]

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

[Kenny Cole]

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

According to their ad, they've been "leading the trading card marketplace since 1998." One hopes that these current issues don't go back that far, or I can only imagine the number of affected cards out there. Then again, I know for a fact that the relationship that seems most concerning on the vintage side is a very long term one.

We also need to bear in mind that there are many card doctors out there, although likely they have left less of a paper trail.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

I don't think the TPGs grading under a "restored" flip is the subject that is bothering so many here. The fact that PWCC is selling an absurd number of altered cards in regular slabs with number grades is the problem. And the fact that they are working with known card doctors to do so. So the TPG using a "restored" flip won't put anything to rest.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

You're talking about figuring out where the line is right? You're saying folks have different tolerances for what's acceptable when it comes to changing or preserving the condition of a card. And we should be open-minded about where the line is because building a new consensus is good for the hobby. Regardless of whether that argument is being used as a smokescreen by PWCC - and I think most feel that it is - the idea probably has merit in a vacuum.

But the most inflammatory examples are those trimmed cards. Trimmed cards aren't the "restored cards..going undetected by TPGs" you're talking about, right? You acknowledge that trimmed cards have no place in our hobby, I assume? They are not restoration. They are not conservation. Trimming destroys a card. I assume you're not drawing your line anywhere near this, but I can't tell.

And if you agree with that, do you think it's a truly productive conversation to talk about what PWCC has gotten philosophically right before we know what they got wrong? The amount of known, blatantly trimmed cards they've sold is staggering. The amount of entanglements they have with named perpetrators is staggering. We don't even reach the fuzzy line you're talking about, where conservation verges into restoration/alteration.

If you're talking about transparency and dialogue, don't you think the onus is on them first to lift the veil on the entirety of the problem before we trust them to tell everyone how it should be cleaned up? You would trust an organization that didn't "get something to happen" on this front until their very survival was threatened by an external whistleblower to lead the way to a better system?

Finally, why do you care about putting this subject to rest? The reckoning hasn't yet even happened. PWCC has said this rolling crisis is nowhere near closure, so I'm wondering why you seem to be pushing for it.

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

[topcat61]

I have no problem with a restored card, but there's a gray line that goes with such a card. Normally this is done to a card that is exceedingly rare and expensive. These cards should always have a flip saying so by the graders, otherwise, it can lead to potential fraud.

Consumers have the right to know if this is done and act accordingly to that information, and as a side, Auction Houses and grading companies go through way too many cards not to know what to look for when inspecting a card so they can no longer pull the old dummy routine when confronted.

What I got out of the PWCC interview a lawyer would have an easy time breaking down piece by piece. Honestly, I was annoyed because for one thing, there are a lot of really smart people who do understand the distinctions between restoration and doctoring and there are clear set of standards already set in place so there isnt going to be any reinventing the wheel by PWCC.

The other thing is why is this guy telling the Hobby that it needs to grow up and mature? While I agree that the more knowledge you have the better off you'll be, but this is up to the individual whether or not he or she have the time and resources to do so.

What it sounds like is that this guy Brent is telling us that "we're a business, and therefore don't have the time or resources necessary to make sure what we're selling is on the level. Just because you're a business dosent mean that you throw your ethics out the window. When you get busted, own up to it and make the necessary precautions to make sure you dont do it again and learn from your mistakes. Finally, "before and after photos" are proof and can be submitted as evidence in a court, same with emails and recordings such as the one of PWCC attempting to explain why altered cards wont be mentioned as such prior to auction.

[drcy]

None of the PWCC examples I have seen are examples of restoration or conservation. They are examples of cards being altered to scam collectors out of their money. Well, more than half of the cards have been trimmed.

[Goudey77]

You're talking about figuring out where the line is right? You're saying folks have different tolerances for what's acceptable when it comes to changing or preserving the condition of a card. And we should be open-minded about where the line is because building a new consensus is good for the hobby. Regardless of whether that argument is being used as a smokescreen by PWCC - and I think most feel that it is - the idea probably has merit in a vacuum.

But the most inflammatory examples are those trimmed cards. Trimmed cards aren't the "restored cards..going undetected by TPGs" you're talking about, right? You acknowledge that trimmed cards have no place in our hobby, I assume? They are not restoration. They are not conservation. Trimming destroys a card. I assume you're not drawing your line anywhere near this, but I can't tell.

And if you agree with that, do you think it's a truly productive conversation to talk about what PWCC has gotten philosophically right before we know what they got wrong? The amount of known, blatantly trimmed cards they've sold is staggering. The amount of entanglements they have with named perpetrators is staggering. We don't even reach the fuzzy line you're talking about, where conservation verges into restoration/alteration.

If you're talking about transparency and dialogue, don't you think the onus is on them first to lift the veil on the entirety of the problem before we trust them to tell everyone how it should be cleaned up? You would trust an organization that didn't "get something to happen" on this front until their very survival was threatened by an external whistleblower to lead the way to a better system?

Finally, why do you care about putting this subject to rest? The reckoning hasn't yet even happened. PWCC has said this rolling crisis is nowhere near closure, so I'm wondering why you seem to be pushing for it.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I will humbly say that I have no opinion on what tolerances should be acceptable. I'm not going to be the card gatekeeper when it comes to conservation/restoration topics. I'm just a consumer like 99% of us are.

I leave this matter to the TPG's. I've seen the other threads kind of evolve over the last few days and it's refreshing to see people seeing the light that this at it's core is a problem with our TPG system and reliability.

I've said it numerous times. TPG's need to step it up and update their stance on the topic. Either do what CGC does and start a service for grading restored examples and clearly define the difference. Have a stance.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0H5j0mQYpy8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I will humbly say that I have no opinion on what tolerances should be acceptable. I'm not going to be the card gatekeeper when it comes to conservation/restoration topics. I'm just a consumer like 99% of us are.

I leave this matter to the TPG's. I've seen the other threads kind of evolve over the last few days and it's refreshing to see people seeing the light that this at it's core is a problem with our TPG system and reliability.

I've said it numerous times. TPG's need to step it up and update their stance on the topic. Either do what CGC does and start a service for grading restored examples and clearly define the difference. Have a stance.

I appreciate your reply, but it’s nonsensical. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t defer to TPGs on what constitutes unacceptable alteration and then criticize them for their outdated stance. They have a stance, you just don’t agree with it.

It’s obvious that you do have an opinion about what should be tolerated. After all, you started an entire thread about it. You sketched out the contours of what you think their stance should be - PWCC’s newly articulated one, as far as I can tell.

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding.

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.

Thanks again!

[Peter_Spaeth]

DNFTT comes to mind at this point.

[Fuddjcal]

If Leon is still looking for someone to speak at the net54 Banquet in Chicago, perhaps Chuck could do some stand-up. I know I would be entertained!

Thanks,:D I was thinking of coming too...I was taught by a guy named Don Rickles.

[Fuddjcal]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Beating a dead horse? You must have been kicked in the head by a mule as a small child. Other people are saying it too, so you may what to check into it.

[Goudey77]

I appreciate your reply, but it’s nonsensical. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t defer to TPGs on what constitutes unacceptable alteration and then criticize them for their outdated stance. They have a stance, you just don’t agree with it.
TPG current stance are not aligned with their actual delivered product at the moment. I think we can all agree to this
It’s obvious that you do have an opinion about what should be tolerated. After all, you started an entire thread about it. You sketched out the contours of what you think their stance should be - PWCC’s newly articulated one, as far as I can tell. I started this thread to show examples of what could be a satisfactory solution to TPG’s involvement with vetting conservation and restoring. Please see the CGC video I posted as it was alarmingly apparent that our industry TPG are dead silent and promote a very grey area when it comes to this. CGC does a wonderful job and shows their competence. Silence and inability to speak openly on policies does not help anyone if we continue to live by the slab concept.

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.
At the end of the day it’s that collaboration of industry leaders who will seal that fate and make a declaration on this matter. My opinion does not matter on a message board

Thanks again!
See response in red text

[Goudey77]

Beating a dead horse? You must have been kicked in the head by a mule as a small child. Other people are saying it too, so you may what to check into it.

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

[Republicaninmass]

Awful lot of cards BOUGHT by Moser with feedback left

"We know very well who Gary Moser is"


One the top buyers, conserver, and consignors that deals solely with PWCC

[swarmee]

Martin, quit while you're behind.

[bnorth]

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

I think Chuck is saying: Your thinking is completely the opposite of every one else.

I think he was also offering a explanation on why you think that way. This is just a wild guess.:D

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Thank God for companies that are looking out for us like PWCC...

You really don't see why that is what people focus on in your posts?

We all agree to one degree or another that there is a TPG problem. But you think the solution is to trust the company that appears to be actively ripping people off. A few of us beg to differ. Saying "The TPG's are bad." Doesn't excuse intentional fraudulent activity.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

@Goudey77: “we have no agency plain and simple“

That’s so depressingly cynical if you believe that. It’s also factually wrong: have a look at corndog, 312, and superdan at BO. Three dudes sitting in their boxers living in their mom’s basement (metaphorically, probably) are poised to topple one, and if you have your way, maybe an additional two or three industry titans, in both the criminal and civil spheres.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Thank God for companies that are looking out for us like PWCC...

You really don't see why that is what people focus on in your posts?

We all agree to one degree or another that there is a TPG problem. But you think the solution is to trust the company that appears to be actively ripping people off. A few of us beg to differ. Saying "The TPG's are bad." Doesn't excuse intentional fraudulent activity.

You guys are wasting your time with Martin IMO. DNFTT.

[Goudey77]

@Goudey77: “we have no agency plain and simple“

That’s so depressingly cynical if you believe that. It’s also factually wrong: have a look at corndog, 312, and Superman at BO. Three dudes sitting in their boxers living in their mom’s basement (metaphorically, probably) are poised to topple one, and if you have your way, maybe an additional two or three industry titans, in both the criminal and civil spheres.

If you think those BO studs are going to shake up the card world then show me the $ that's going to back them in court or the agency that will leverage their findings for a case. Do you think mom and dad will lend them the money? So they can finally make an impact in this world.

I'm sorry to say this is bigger than them. It's up to the big dogs to declare what's up if they decide to throw us a bone.

Sorry to sound cynical. I've had a busy work week. :D

[Goudey77]

Martin, quit while you're behind.

I think my original message is starting to gain some traction based on the other threads. So I may quit while...

[calvindog]

Martin, if you have any concern for Brent you should really stop. You’re not helping him.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.
At the end of the day it’s that collaboration of industry leaders who will seal that fate and make a declaration on this matter. My opinion does not matter on a message board

I don't think the collaboration of industry leaders can change the definition of what an altered card is. They can say whatever they want on their websites but collectors who are buying the cards aren't just lemmings that are going to follow along with this. The TPGs can offer new flips for altered cards or what might be called conserved, that's fine. People will still consider spooning out a crease, or fixing corners, or trimming as alterations. And prices will reflect this. So, there will be card doctors who still try to get altered cards past the TPGs so they can make a profit and they will continue to use companies like PWCC to sell their crap because PWCC has stated that they don't agree that these things are alterations, but are rather conservation and are therefore ok. Stop trying to give PWCC a pass and deflect all blame on the TPGs.

[Goudey77]

I don't think the TPGs grading under a "restored" flip is the subject that is bothering so many here. The fact that PWCC is selling an absurd number of altered cards in regular slabs with number grades is the problem. And the fact that they are working with known card doctors to do so. So the TPG using a "restored" flip won't put anything to rest.

While I agree with you. Wouldn’t it be comforting to know a TPG can work similarly to CGC? Be vocal subject matter experts. Give that video I linked a chance. If PSA came out with a open chat discussing their stance in detail it would be kind of a big deal.

[swarmee]

Martin, until all three grading companies tell the people they are not wearing any clothes, aka incapable of detecting alterations, your point is useless.

[drcy]

Besides, with all the CGC mentions, I am unaware that comics don't have the same exact problems as trading cards

[Kenny Cole]

Wow. OK. i'm not sure that what school you went to makes a significant difference in this discussion. There are lawyers who went to one of the prestige schools whose ass I kick regularly. Others, not so much. It isn't about the school, its about the person. Particularly after you graduate and most people don't care where you went. I am having that very discussion with my youngest child right now.

I do not disagree that the TPGers have a significant degree of culpability in this debacle, whether due to ineptitude, intent, or whatever the reason may be. Yes, they made a promise that pretty clearly was sometimes not capable of being even close to fulfilled. To say the least, that is problematic.

But how does that give the fraudsters a pass? If you trim a card and submit it for a grade because you are pretty sure that your fraud is so advanced that the TPGers can't detect it, how and why is that OK? You still knowingly committed fraud. Period. The fact that the TPGers can't detect your fraud doesn't mean that you didn't commit it. Caveat emptor doesn't work so well anymore, nor should it when a huge percentage of cards are being sold over the internet based on scans. You can be an apologist for PSAA until you are blue in the face, but the evidence seems to be mounting (to say the least) that it knew what was going on, was complicit, and did its best to profit from it. In what universe is that OK?

[ullmandds]

Wow. OK. i'm not sure that what school you went to makes a significant difference in this discussion. There are lawyers who went to one of the prestige schools whose ass I kick regularly. Others, not so much. It isn't about the school, its about the person. Particularly after you graduate and most people don't care where you went. I am having that very discussion with my youngest child right now.

I do not disagree that the TPGers have a significant degree of culpability in this debacle, whether due to ineptitude, intent, or whatever the reason may be. Yes, they made a promise that pretty clearly was sometimes not capable of being even close to fulfilled. To say the least, that is problematic.

But how does that give the fraudsters a pass? If you trim a card and submit it for a grade because you are pretty sure that your fraud is so advanced that the TPGers can't detect it, how and why is that OK? You still knowingly committed fraud. Period. The fact that the TPGers can't detect your fraud doesn't mean that you didn't commit it. Caveat emptor doesn't work so well anymore, nor should it when a huge percentage of cards are being sold over the internet based on scans. You can be an apologist for PSAA until you are blue in the face, but the evidence seems to be mounting (to say the least) that it knew what was going on, was complicit, and did its best to profit from it. In what universe is that OK?

Good point...there's plenty of guilt to go around!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wow. OK. i'm not sure that what school you went to makes a significant difference in this discussion. There are lawyers who went to one of the prestige schools whose ass I kick regularly. Others, not so much. It isn't about the school, its about the person. Particularly after you graduate and most people don't care where you went. I am having that very discussion with my youngest child right now.

I do not disagree that the TPGers have a significant degree of culpability in this debacle, whether due to ineptitude, intent, or whatever the reason may be. Yes, they made a promise that pretty clearly was sometimes not capable of being even close to fulfilled. To say the least, that is problematic.

But how does that give the fraudsters a pass? If you trim a card and submit it for a grade because you are pretty sure that your fraud is so advanced that the TPGers can't detect it, how and why is that OK? You still knowingly committed fraud. Period. The fact that the TPGers can't detect your fraud doesn't mean that you didn't commit it. Caveat emptor doesn't work so well anymore, nor should it when a huge percentage of cards are being sold over the internet based on scans. You can be an apologist for PSAA until you are blue in the face, but the evidence seems to be mounting (to say the least) that it knew what was going on, was complicit, and did its best to profit from it. In what universe is that OK?

Lake Oswego and environs, it would seem. :eek:

[bounce]

I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings.

And...so what? Chuck may be rudimentary, you're condescending. Feels like a push. I thought you said you wanted a civil discussion, but your response to a silly insult is to try and impress everyone with you and your siblings Ivy League attendance? I literally did laugh out loud at this, so thanks for that.

Anyway, let's play this little game. While I didn't attend an Ivy League school, I do happen to have a Mensa card. Does that qualify me?


If you think those BO studs are going to shake up the card world then show me the $ that's going to back them in court or the agency that will leverage their findings for a case.

I think most people find out that the state governments and federal government are pretty well funded when it comes to lawsuits and investigations. The easy answer here is the FBI, but there are other choices if you want to look around.

If you just want to say you don't think it gets that far, that's fine - add another item to the list of things that certain people here don't agree with you on.

I don't believe for one second that you don't understand any of these arguments, you just choose not to directly address it and try to divert attention to a comic book video. Even though comic books and cards are actually really different, which you also don't seem to want to acknowledge, but that's fine.

You've made your point and posted your video a number of times now. Good work.

Thanks, and happy collecting! How'd I do?

[steve B]

I don't think the collaboration of industry leaders can change the definition of what an altered card is. They can say whatever they want on their websites but collectors who are buying the cards aren't just lemmings that are going to follow along with this. The TPGs can offer new flips for altered cards or what might be called conserved, that's fine. People will still consider spooning out a crease, or fixing corners, or trimming as alterations. And prices will reflect this. So, there will be card doctors who still try to get altered cards past the TPGs so they can make a profit and they will continue to use companies like PWCC to sell their crap because PWCC has stated that they don't agree that these things are alterations, but are rather conservation and are therefore ok. Stop trying to give PWCC a pass and deflect all blame on the TPGs.

I for one am cynical enough to say I don't buy that. Whoever puts themselves out there as an industry leader can eventually change how people think.
In the past
"Beckett can't tell us what a rookie card is. "
"Nobody can tell us rookie cards are really worth more"
"We don't need anyone to tell us what condition a card is in" (Ok, that one is still going, but the grading companies have gotten a LOT of traction)
"No price guide can tell me what a card is worth"
"The grade should be about how well preserved a card is, not if it was printed right or cut so it was well centered" (Ok, that last one was probably just me.. )

The only instance I can think of where a big idea pushed by a company didn't really go in a hobby was PSE slabbing stamps. But then they were fighting 100+ years of putting them in albums, and nobody could figure out a good way of doing that with small slabs.

[Republicaninmass]

I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

So did Trump and George Dubya...and Fred Dorfman


Hoover: Kent is a legacy, Otter. His brother was a ’59, Fred Dorfman.
Flounder: He said legacies usually get asked to pledge automatically.
Otter: Oh, well, usually. Unless the pledge in question turns out to be a real closet-case.
Otter, Boon: Like Fred.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I for one am cynical enough to say I don't buy that. Whoever puts themselves out there as an industry leader can eventually change how people think.
In the past
"Beckett can't tell us what a rookie card is. "
"Nobody can tell us rookie cards are really worth more"
"We don't need anyone to tell us what condition a card is in" (Ok, that one is still going, but the grading companies have gotten a LOT of traction)
"No price guide can tell me what a card is worth"
"The grade should be about how well preserved a card is, not if it was printed right or cut so it was well centered" (Ok, that last one was probably just me.. )

The only instance I can think of where a big idea pushed by a company didn't really go in a hobby was PSE slabbing stamps. But then they were fighting 100+ years of putting them in albums, and nobody could figure out a good way of doing that with small slabs.

Hi Steve,

You make good points, but I don't think collectors are going to accept a new definition of what an altered card is. We still debate what a rookie card is. And what a card is worth. How many times have you laughed when a dealer pulls out a Beckett at a show when you ask what a card costs?

[Goudey77]

And...so what? Chuck may be rudimentary, you're condescending. Feels like a push. I thought you said you wanted a civil discussion, but your response to a silly insult is to try and impress everyone with you and your siblings Ivy League attendance? I literally did laugh out loud at this, so thanks for that.

Anyway, let's play this little game. While I didn't attend an Ivy League school, I do happen to have a Mensa card. Does that qualify me?

David, Chucks been coming at me with insults on every thread. This time I simply gave him a receipt in return. To me the term getting kicked in the head by a mule is an insult to my intelligence that I take pride in. I’m not here to play games.


I think most people find out that the state governments and federal government are pretty well funded when it comes to lawsuits and investigations. The easy answer here is the FBI, but there are other choices if you want to look around.

If you just want to say you don't think it gets that far, that's fine - add another item to the list of things that certain people here don't agree with you on.
That is correct. It needs to get figured out by industry leaders in order for the consumers to follow. Just like history has shown
I don't believe for one second that you don't understand any of these arguments, you just choose not to directly address it and try to divert attention to a comic book video. Even though comic books and cards are actually really different, which you also don't seem to want to acknowledge, but that's fine.
May be two different genres but exact same concept about grading and authentication which includes conservation vs restoration.
You've made your point and posted your video a number of times now. Good work.

Thanks, and happy collecting! How'd I do?

You did great David. Thanks for chiming in!

[bounce]

You did great David. Thanks for chiming in!

He has been coming at you, that's fair.

I don't share your opinion that this stays out of a courtroom somewhere, or that some agency doesn't end up involved. It only takes one person who ended up with one of these things to decide they don't care about the refund and would rather stand on principle. There are plenty of angles and choices to pursue, including eBay (although that would probably be the toughest fight of all).

Also, not sure what the value tally has come to yet but it's increasing every day. $1m will get some media eyeballs, if a story or two goes out in the right places don't underestimate how quickly this thing could take off outside our little collector world.

Comic books makes sense that there would be more restoration, there's more pages, thinner stock, etc. I'm not opposed to restoration in cards, I just think it's already been pretty well defined. I also heavily object to PWCCs idea of what is and isn't restoration/conservation, if for no other reason than that definition appears to be motivated by what is best for business, not what's best for the hobby. I don't think anyone includes trimming as an acceptable technique, but if you can't tell by holding the card it didn't happen, even with photos of before and after? Sorry, not buying it. Get a ruler, and stop with all the tolerance garbage.

At a minimum, I think PSA has some explaining to do, a fair bit of refunding to do and some pretty extensive changing/improvement to do so they actually enforce their published rules. They also have some enforcement to do, which includes permanent bans of bad actors. If that includes people/companies who act as agents for those bad actors as well, so be it. If they don't, I don't know how that improves anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is becoming an easier case for a prosecutor on a daily basis, and that's even before they investigate and compel people to turn over evidence. And I bet there are plenty of people who know things who would come forward. I would.

[frankbmd]

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.


I just had to check. We weren’t classmates. ;):):D

And I’ve never used my educational pedigree as a means of intimidation.

[steve B]

Hi Steve,

You make good points, but I don't think collectors are going to accept a new definition of what an altered card is. We still debate what a rookie card is. And what a card is worth. How many times have you laughed when a dealer pulls out a Beckett at a show when you ask what a card costs?

What we do and what the majority of collectors do aren't necessarily the same.

I'd laugh at the Beckett thing now, but in the early 90's? Pretty much every dealer did that, even some of the better ones. Most of the guys I would go to either mostly did stuff that wasn't in Beckett, or used it as a very rough guide.
there were a lot of discussions then about what something was in Beckett for and whether the arrows were up or not.

And for most people, if you just go with the standard definition of the rookie card they go along. Nevermind if the player has 15 cards issued earlier, whatever the book or website says the rookie card is - that's the one. (Or 100 in the case of modern... )

If the claim that alterations are acceptable is consistent over several years, eventually what will happen is most of the people who object stop fighting as hard, or as vocally. (keeping up the current level for say 5-10 years would be difficult, some will most won't) And the handful of people who buy it becomes greater until the objectors are in the minority.

I was generally against grading, but as I get older, I graded a few cards. I figure someday my family will sell them, and the ease of sale and extra value added would make that easier. It was also nice to see some of my nicer old cards get decent grades, sort of recognition that the card was actually that nice and not altered.
Seeing some of the stuff all the companies have done the last few years, fixing problems they caused without changing the grade, refusing to admit having been wrong, and now this stuff where they are either grossly incompetent, or actively passing altered cards for a particular customer.. I'm against it again. I might go back to grading a handful every couple years if they get things together again, but that may be a long way in the future.

[jchcollins]

Sorry to digress for a moment - can someone give me a quick and dirty primer on how the Blowout forums are different from Net54? I was never on Blowout, but given all the discussion there recently that has been linked to here, I registered the other day (it has not been approved yet). Just curious as to what I will be wading into - I'm not sure I have anywhere near the time to be as active on that board as I am here - but I am interested. Thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sorry to digress for a moment - can someone give me a quick and dirty primer on how the Blowout forums are different from Net54? I was never on Blowout, but given all the discussion there recently that has been linked to here, I registered the other day (it has not been approved yet). Just curious as to what I will be wading into - I'm not sure I have anywhere near the time to be as active on that board as I am here - but I am interested. Thanks.

Focus mostly on modern. Lots of general sports discussion as well as cards. Younger crowd, lots of high tech dudes. Anonymous. No moderation, or very little.

And they are relentless if they sense wrongdoing.

[darwinbulldog]

Recent discussions here reminded me of this case (https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/salvator-mundi-leonardo-da-vinci.html), at the outer limits of conceivably acceptable restoration.