Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[Stonepony]

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's been some reaction already on one or maybe it was both of the other PWCC threads, so if you don't get many comments that's why.

[swarmee]

My thoughts:
1) (3 minutes in) He is confirming that his standards are not industry accepted and that the card industry needs to "mature" into accepting HIS definition of conservation. We see in the various responses to PWCC's posts on many message boards that very few people agree with him. He also claims that there are no grading company rules about what is/is not acceptable. This is a flat out lie, since PSA's grading page specifically lays out what they consider ungradeable alterations. He also fails to mention the importance of informing buyers of alterations/"conservations" that have occurred, something that is industry standard in many other collectible/investment fields.

2) (6:30 in) Tenets "are what we hold the grading company accountable for." "We will refine this to be in everbody's best interest." In the case of spooning out a crease, is it initially conserved because you can't spot it, but later becomes altered as it reappears? This is why nobody trusts what Brent has to say on this subject. PSA disagrees on removing pencil marks from a card; it's there in their list of alterations. He claims that his stance lines up with PSA's, but it's absolutely wrong.

3) As manufactured state: as long as it can't be detected, it isn't altered. Again, BS. If the intent is to hide flaws with an item, that is alteration. If it can't be detected by the grading companies, and they're claiming they can detect it, they need to come clean. Because more and more of these cards will end up getting reimbursed by their Grade Guarantee funds and continue to disgust their customers. Good alteration = Good conservation. No wonder he's such good friends with guys like Dick Towle. He's drank his solvent Kool-aid.

4) Take the 1951 Bowman Willie Mays RC that was recently found to have the embedded gum/wax stains on the reverse removed. If you didn't have the before picture, it's "conservation"; once you've been provided the before picture, is it now "alteration?" Or are you still going to call it conservation?

5) Take a shot every time he says "mature" or "asset". Let me know how drunk you are. At 9:45, he basically says that spooning out creases or pressing/flattening cards/corners IS CONSERVATION.

So there's my thoughts for the first 10 minutes. I'll keep watching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why on earth would you keep watching? :confused:

[swarmee]

https://d3h6k4kfl8m9p0.cloudfront.net/stories/80I1wnJjf.s3zl28gWByTw.jpg

[bnorth]

Why on earth would you keep watching? :confused:

It is fun watching a otherwise intelligent person go full short bus rider. It totally baffles me why Brent and Betsy keep making these amazingly stupid posts/videos that just make them look worse.:confused:

[ullmandds]

It is fun watching a otherwise intelligent person go full short bus rider. It totally baffles me why Brent and Betsy keep making these amazingly stupid posts/videos that just make them look worse.:confused:

I wonder if those curtains are in brents house...or maybe one of the oy gavaults!

[swarmee]

Wow, it took until 10:33 to hear "We're not a professional grading company."
"We have to accept the grading companies and their assessment of it." Just like the Green PMG Jordan, huh?

So yes, he clarifies that bad erasures are alterations, but good erasures are not.
"That's generally how people feel about it." I have not seen that to be the case with people who are willing to give their opinions on message boards, Leon's preference notwithstanding. Again, if the card is found with writing on the card after it is sold, it's now altered. If there was no evidence of the card with writing on it, it's conserved. Geesh.

"I have never seen the N-7 alteration applied to a single card in 20 years. So PSA has it; I've never seen it used, ever." He agrees that if there was evidence a stain was removed, it should be considered altered. So again, how does the 1951 Bowman Willie Mays apply? How about the alterations that reappear over time because of using solvents to remove stains from cards? "This language [PSA's standards] is 30 years old." How about the WWG DiMaggio that PSA decertified?

Interviewer is definitely giving Brent the home court advantage. Barely talks, lines up softballs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it ever came to it, Brent would not do well on cross-examination, IMO.

Personally, as much as I hate most forms of alteration, I really don't care about erasing a light pencil mark with a high quality eraser. There, I gave my opinion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How can you redefine a word? Conserve means prevent further damage. It in no way has EVER meant in any hobby, collectible field or dictionary - improving appearance for appearance's sake. Even cleaning an old master isn't solely to make it look better, the accumulated grime can destroy the painting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How can you redefine a word? Conserve means prevent further damage. It in no way has EVER meant in any hobby, collectible field or dictionary - improving appearance for appearance's sake. Even cleaning an old master isn't solely to make it look better, the accumulated grime can destroy the painting.

The same way he can call a baseball card an asset. Clueless. Apparently he needs to consult not only with better lawyers, but with a PR firm that can speak English.

[steve B]

Erasures are to me, one of those in between things. done properly, I don't see much problem, but do wish they were noted somehow. Done poorly, well, like anything done poorly it's a problem.

This card was one of two I asked SGC about the grade a few years ago when they were at the local show. It seemed nicer than the average 40 to me.

What the guy there spotted pretty quickly was an erased number on the back.
I've owned the card at least since 1980, it was the first nice T206 I bought. Since then, I've moved it between pages, different holders etc probably 5-6 times, looked at it a fair amount, and never noticed the erasure.
SGC did, and apparently didn't consider it anything that would prevent a number grade. It just didn't get a higher number grade because of the erasure.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=26971

[swarmee]

New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "I've only seen it [the before picture] once." "Before and after pictures are not evidence." Hah. WTTE of "Physical evidence has to be on the card, or first hand statement from the submitter has to occur in order to disclose the conservation." Well, this is not really true.

"Conservation is not something that has to be disclosed." They will not stop an auction if a card for sale shows "conservation" in a before picture. Just keep digging, Brent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "I've only seen it [the before picture] once." "Before and after pictures are not evidence." Hah. WTTE of "Physical evidence has to be on the card, or first hand statement from the submitter has to occur in order to disclose the conservation." Well, this is not really true.

"Conservation is not something that has to be disclosed." They will not stop an auction if a card for sale shows "conservation" in a before picture. Just keep digging, Brent.

It's like the old joke of how do you know a lawyer is lying.

Man, people here used to defend him by the droves, where are they?

[Fuddjcal]

My thoughts:
1) (3 minutes in) He is confirming that his standards are not industry accepted and that the card industry needs to "mature" into accepting HIS definition of conservation. We see in the various responses to PWCC's posts on many message boards that very few people agree with him. He also claims that there are no grading company rules about what is/is not acceptable. This is a flat out lie, since PSA's grading page specifically lays out what they consider ungradeable alterations. He also fails to mention the importance of informing buyers of alterations/"conservations" that have occurred, something that is industry standard in many other collectible/investment fields.

2) (6:30 in) Tenets "are what we hold the grading company accountable for." "We will refine this to be in everbody's best interest." In the case of spooning out a crease, is it initially conserved because you can't spot it, but later becomes altered as it reappears? This is why nobody trusts what Brent has to say on this subject. PSA disagrees on removing pencil marks from a card; it's there in their list of alterations. He claims that his stance lines up with PSA's, but it's absolutely wrong.

3) As manufactured state: as long as it can't be detected, it isn't altered. Again, BS. If the intent is to hide flaws with an item, that is alteration. If it can't be detected by the grading companies, and they're claiming they can detect it, they need to come clean. Because more and more of these cards will end up getting reimbursed by their Grade Guarantee funds and continue to disgust their customers. Good alteration = Good conservation. No wonder he's such good friends with guys like Dick Towle. He's drank his solvent Kool-aid.

4) Take the 1951 Bowman Willie Mays RC that was recently found to have the embedded gum/wax stains on the reverse removed. If you didn't have the before picture, it's "conservation"; once you've been provided the before picture, is it now "alteration?" Or are you still going to call it conservation?

5) Take a shot every time he says "mature" or "asset". Let me know how drunk you are. At 9:45, he basically says that spooning out creases or pressing/flattening cards/corners IS CONSERVATION.

So there's my thoughts for the first 10 minutes. I'll keep watching.

These are good reasons why I consider him a very slithering shady individual on the surface of things. I am no longer a customer, that's for sure. Let's see how he starts getting $$$$ back from conservators like Towle, Burge, Moser, Et al. :D I have clear picture of that happening. Those kids have been spinning 1's into 3's, 3's into 5's and 7's into 9's for a really long time together. They are thick as theives, IMHO. They do more flips over there that Nadia Comaneci

[Peter_Spaeth]

In fairness I have never heard that Dick trims cards. He has admitted to doing things I would personally consider unacceptable alteration, but I have never heard trimming.

[swarmee]

Looks like 2 of the 1993 SP Jeters sold for a combined $173K may be trimmed. Even more money PSA is on the hook for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like 2 of the 1993 SP Jeters sold for a combined $173K may be trimmed. Even more money PSA is on the hook for.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1294745

[Fuddjcal]

In fairness I have never heard that Dick trims cards. He has admitted to doing things I would personally consider unacceptable alteration, but I have never heard trimming.

I will edit my comment.

The Fake Jeters are to die laughing for...A long time in bed together...a long time. Great job tracing these fake cards sold for at least 100,000's of Thousands, that we know of. Probably Millions before this scam is completely uncovered.

[CobbSpikedMe]

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "Before and after pictures are not evidence."

:confused::confused::confused: What?! Did he really say that? I didn't get that far into the video.

ETA: So I guess all those autographed T206s that were shown with before and after pictures would still be good in his world then?

[Fuddjcal]

:confused::confused::confused: What?! Did he really say that? I didn't get that far into the video.

ETA: So I guess all those autographed T206s that were shown with before and after pictures would still be good in his world then?

Right, as long as his clinic of doctors don't get caught by PSA, it would be considered Conserved.

[oldjudge]

The same way he can call a baseball card an asset. Clueless. Apparently he needs to consult not only with better lawyers, but with a PR firm that can speak English.


Peter-Not sure why you have a problem with cards being called assets. An asset is defined as a useful or valuable thing. Certainly most cards have value and as such they can be considered assets. I understand that to some it is more palatable to spend money on assets than on cards, but at the end of the day it’s a distinction without a difference. There are things that Brent says that I disagree with, but I have no problem with this choice of words.

[drcy]

#1 Conservation is alteration
#2 He mentions the art and comic world, but I don't think he knows what is conservation. He's making up his own definition that doesn't exist in those worlds.
#3 Conservation is supposed to be disclosed at sale and should make it so a card can only graded as AUTH (according to standard PSA, SGC, Beckett rules).

[glchen]

Wow, one hour long video. Who has time to watch this entire thing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter-Not sure why you have a problem with cards being called assets. An asset is defined as a useful or valuable thing. Certainly most cards have value and as such they can be considered assets. I understand that to some it is more palatable to spend money on assets than on cards, but at the end of the day it’s a distinction without a difference. There are things that Brent says that I disagree with, but I have no problem with this choice of words.

It's indicative of a whole mindset that I don't like. I wouldn't say to you, Jay, nice asset, or Jay, could you post a scan of that asset. It's a generic term that sounds stupid in this context, IMO.

[Buythatcard]

My only suggestion is to start buying at the smaller eBay companies like it use to be.

Before all of these big Sellers came along, there were rarely any controversies. You were able to get cards at decent prices and never had to worry about shilling.

These so called big companies think that they make all the rules around here. BS.

We can then get back to talking about baseball cards. I use to come to this Forum to learn about cards. Now all I hear about is the shadiness of the larger Sellers.

[Exhibitman]

I ran out of patience about ten minutes in. What nonsense. Keep digging that hole, pal.

[Rich Klein]

In fairness I have never heard that Dick trims cards. He has admitted to doing things I would personally consider unacceptable alteration, but I have never heard trimming.

I went to his web site and he lists what he does for cards and the general charges. Nothing is noted about trimming but a list of other changes are notes

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/price-list.html

Posted so we can see what they do to cards and what the cost is

Rich

[irv]

It's like the old joke of how do you know a lawyer is lying.

Man, people here used to defend him by the droves, where are they?

I remember when I use to get laughed at when I just spoke about PWCC's inconsistent, all over the map, shipping fees plus the price they charged for shipping. Looking back, all that seems so trivial now based on what has come to light but for me it was another sign of a less than professionally run business. Throw in a few questionable card sales and some stories I have read here about their shilling policies, etc, and I haven't looked back since other than to watch some of their auctions. I guess for some, it seems, they needed more than that but I'm sure they're regretting that decision now?

Wow, one hour long video. Who has time to watch this entire thing?

I noticed this vid was posted yesterday on my phone while I was at my trailer. I was hoping to watch it today on my home computer but when I realized it was over an hour long, just reading the comments here and below the vid was enough for me to realize it is nothing more than a damage control vid.

My only suggestion is to start buying at the smaller eBay companies like it use to be.

Before all of these big Sellers came along, there were rarely any controversies. You were able to get cards at decent prices and never had to worry about shilling.

These so called big companies think that they make all the rules around here. BS.

We can then get back to talking about baseball cards. I use to come to this Forum to learn about cards. Now all I hear about is the shadiness of the larger Sellers.

Same. When I joined the site and started collecting back in 2016, I was real happy to see these card forums actually existed.
As time went on I quickly learned how ugly this hobby was, and was really surprised, the ugliest parts of it came from those who were supposedly started to protect/endorse the hobby.:confused:
The things I've learned and seen in my short time here from PSA, PWCC and some auction houses, who are allowed to "up bid" their own auctions, made me quickly learn this is no longer kids stuff anymore.

The biggest eye opener's are from those who defend these places and scoff at those who question their business practices. I honestly don't understand, nor will ever understand, anyone who continues to do business with these places. It just boggles my mind. :confused:

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=swarmee;1879322]New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

So maybe the TPG's have read his "Tenets." Sounds like he has the gall to consider himself "the authority" that his word shall be beholden as sportscard gospel and how "assets" should be sold.

Who gave him the title? Is he the new "Lord of Sportscards?" In my opinion he seems to have a high opinion of himself...:confused:

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=swarmee;1879322]New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

So maybe the TPG's have read his "Tenets." Sounds like he has the gall to consider himself "the authority" that his word shall be beholden as sportscard gospel and how "assets" should be sold.

Who gave him the title? Is he the new "Lord of Sportscards?" In my opinion he seems to have a high opinion of himself...:confused:

Lake Oswego has always been the center of the sports card universe.:rolleyes:

[glynparson]

I don't think i have shaken my head so often and said you are full of shit more times in one hour in my entire life. I can not disagree more than i do with 99% of what he says. I had used them several times to sell for me. i don't think i will ever again. i just can't in good conscience despite the strong prices i received and the relatively quick payments. i am in this for the long haul and i don't think what he is trying to do is helpful for the hobby. I'll stick with REA and a couple other reputable sellers to consign with.

[slipk1068]

Most of you folks are a lot more patient than I am. I made it to the 8 minute mark before the steam was shooting out my ears, and I had to shut it down.

[swarmee]

I listened to most of the rest of it at work this morning. I was glad he owned up to being a fence ("front" in his terms) for bad actors, but it seems he won't out anyone who confesses, apologizes, and reimburses those who were scammed. He believes all of these criminals are worthy of staying in the hobby as long as they promise not to do it again...

He says that he is working to identify "conservators" who he can point people to in order to improve the look of their cards, and anyone who thinks this is alteration just needs to "mature" like other markets. He didn't say if Dick Towle was on that list.

Things I do agree with that he said: the bad actor information needs to be freely shared between auction houses and grading companies so this doesn't become a case of "pass the trash." He referenced the plan that blowout member Superdan is working to catalog all these altered cards onto a website so that the info doesn't get lost to internet losses.

I disagree that the six to eight already outed by Blowout are redeemable in the hobby, and I would love for Brent to turn over his information on their consignments to law enforcement.

[calvindog]

He's doing so many good things for the hobby, I don't understand what the problem is.

[glynparson]

He's doing so many good things for the hobby, I don't understand what the problem is.
LOL.

The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL.

The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.

Kind of like when he claimed noone had ever questioned his scans and I linked a post on CU where he had recently responded to just such a charge.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I listened to most of the rest of it at work this morning. I was glad he owned up to being a fence ("front" in his terms) for bad actors, but it seems he won't out anyone who confesses, apologizes, and reimburses those who were scammed. He believes all of these criminals are worthy of staying in the hobby as long as they promise not to do it again...

He says that he is working to identify "conservators" who he can point people to in order to improve the look of their cards, and anyone who thinks this is alteration just needs to "mature" like other markets. He didn't say if Dick Towle was on that list.

Things I do agree with that he said: the bad actor information needs to be freely shared between auction houses and grading companies so this doesn't become a case of "pass the trash." He referenced the plan that blowout member Superdan is working to catalog all these altered cards onto a website so that the info doesn't get lost to internet losses.

I disagree that the six to eight already outed by Blowout are redeemable in the hobby, and I would love for Brent to turn over his information on their consignments to law enforcement.

6 to 8?? There have been dozens.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL.

The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.

He is probably playing word games and defining accused to mean a formal charge by law enforcement.

[frankbmd]

He is probably playing word games and defining accused to mean a formal charge by law enforcement.

Who on earth would resort to word play to communicate in their alternative universe?

Could such an individual also be a Scrabble Master, or perhaps be competent in solving cryptic crosswords.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He's doing so many good things for the hobby, I don't understand what the problem is.

You mean the investment community.

[calvindog]

You mean the investment community.

You're a bad person. First you rip Mastro and now Brent.

[irv]

I don't think i have shaken my head so often and said you are full of shit more times in one hour in my entire life. I can not disagree more than i do with 99% of what he says. I had used them several times to sell for me. i don't think i will ever again. i just can't in good conscience despite the strong prices i received and the relatively quick payments. i am in this for the long haul and i don't think what he is trying to do is helpful for the hobby. I'll stick with REA and a couple other reputable sellers to consign with.

LOL.

The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.

Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain?

I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks.

[jchcollins]

I listened to about 10 minutes of it. If I’m not someone who is already familiar with PWCC and the backstory there and issues that have already been brought up in this or other threads, what he’s saying doesn’t seem outlandish to me - but it also seems unnecessary. If we have no evidence on the card, then no “alteration” was done. Of course, if you get a card in with an erased pencil mark and you were not on hand to see the erasing being done, and it left no traces whatsoever on the card - even being viewed “30 different ways in 20 different lights and 10 different magnifications” or whatever it was he said - then no, you aren’t going to call that card “altered”. Not outing previous known card doctors that PWCC likely made a fortune with and things like that is outside the scope of what I can knowledgeably speak to. If I believe what I have read on Net54 and then listen to 10 mins of Brent, it seems like he is offering to address something that is not really the issue to whitewash a much larger problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[drcy]

He has been accused of selling hundreds of doctored/altered cards in graded holders-- and, I don't know, but some have said knowingly selling cards from well known card doctors-- , and is now trying to explain that certain types of alterations are okay and not even alterations, they don't have to be disclosed to the buyer, and, essentially, that "if you can't tell that a doctored card hasn't been doctored, it isn't doctored,"-- which is reminiscent of the old steroid baseball era saying "it's not cheating if you don't get caught."

Am I a zealot who thinks using a pantyhose to remove a wax stain from the back of a card a mortal sin? No. Do I think a card that has had a pencil mark erased or wax stain removed can legitimately receive a 10? No. I assume the card may be deserving of a number grade, but no 10. Perfectly gradable 2s and 3s have varying damage including sometimes identified by the grader pencil, erasure and pen marks, but a legitimate 10 cannot be created or be the product of working on the card.

So doing something to the card isn't necessarily bad or unethical (I'm not saying it's wrong to remove a wax stain or pencil mark or have the card conserved), and in instances, the card may still be deserving of a number grade, but what has been done should be factored into the grade.

[ullmandds]

He has been accused of selling hundreds of doctored/altered cards in graded holders-- and, I don't know, but some have said knowingly selling cards from well known card doctors-- , and is now trying to explain that certain types of alterations are okay and not even alterations, they don't have to be disclosed to the buyer, and, essentially, that "if you can't tell that a doctored card hasn't been doctored, it isn't doctored,"-- which is reminiscent of the old steroid baseball era saying "it's not cheating if you don't get caught."

Am I a zealot who thinks using a pantyhose to remove a wax stain from the back of a card a mortal sin? No.

Exactly...Brent is trying to change "the rules" as to what's acceptable in the hobby to justify past indescretions.

Who the "F" is Brent to think he can just decide what should be acceptable?

BRENT IS NOT GOOD FOR THIS HOBBY!

[Republicaninmass]

Exactly...Brent is trying to change "the rules" as to what's acceptable in the hobby to justify past indescretions.

Who the "F" is Brent to think he can just decide what should be acceptable?

BRENT IS NOT GOOD FOR THIS HOBBY!

"Some hayseed in Oswego Lake"

[glynparson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
I don't think i have shaken my head so often and said you are full of shit more times in one hour in my entire life. I can not disagree more than i do with 99% of what he says. I had used them several times to sell for me. i don't think i will ever again. i just can't in good conscience despite the strong prices i received and the relatively quick payments. i am in this for the long haul and i don't think what he is trying to do is helpful for the hobby. I'll stick with REA and a couple other reputable sellers to consign with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
LOL.

"The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.
Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain? "

"I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks."





I think they make mistakes. I think all of them make mistakes. i still think their senior graders are very good at what they do. They obviously aren't perfect it is just that some of these doctors are damn good. These rough cuts they are doing now are downright scary. I am still a psa guy I don't think they are flawless I never did. I am more angry at what the card doctors have done. I am hopeful PSA will ban the doctors from submitting as it is not good for anyone. ANd i hope Brent does what he says in the video, but i hope he also notes all "conservation" he knows occurs not just what he determines is visible on the card but what he knows and or what is visible should be noted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I listened to about 10 minutes of it. If I’m not someone who is already familiar with PWCC and the backstory there and issues that have already been brought up in this or other threads, what he’s saying doesn’t seem outlandish to me - but it also seems unnecessary. If we have no evidence on the card, then no “alteration” was done. Of course, if you get a card in with an erased pencil mark and you were not on hand to see the erasing being done, and it left no traces whatsoever on the card - even being viewed “30 different ways in 20 different lights and 10 different magnifications” or whatever it was he said - then no, you aren’t going to call that card “altered”. Not outing previous known card doctors that PWCC likely made a fortune with and things like that is outside the scope of what I can knowledgeably speak to. If I believe what I have read on Net54 and then listen to 10 mins of Brent, it seems like he is offering to address something that is not really the issue to whitewash a much larger problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I disagree to some extent. I believe, and people who know much more than I do I think can confirm, that if you look hard enough you can always find evidence certainly of stain removal with solvents, and crease and wrinkle removal. So his self serving proclamation is wrong. It could well be altered even if in ordinary circumstances you might not know it. That makes it skilled alteration, not an absence of alteration.

If this BS is good for the hobby, well you can have the hobby.

[Exhibitman]

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Lumbergh.png

[ullmandds]

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/lurch.JPG

substitute george mikan rookie card with loch ness monster!

[vintagetoppsguy]

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

[frankbmd]

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Agreed, but it looks like a long wave, more of a tsunami, if that's part of the hobby lexicon. I'd give it a Tsunami Sticker.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Lower right corner? First thing I noticed. Is the other edge wavy too and just obscured by the slat, not sure. Doesn't look like a rough cut in any event. Older grade too. But hey, as we all know, PWCC would probably get the same price just showing the flip.

[irv]

Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain?

I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks.

Quote:
I think they make mistakes. I think all of them make mistakes. i still think their senior graders are very good at what they do. They obviously aren't perfect it is just that some of these doctors are damn good. These rough cuts they are doing now are downright scary. I am still a psa guy I don't think they are flawless I never did. I am more angry at what the card doctors have done. I am hopeful PSA will ban the doctors from submitting as it is not good for anyone. ANd i hope Brent does what he says in the video, but i hope he also notes all "conservation" he knows occurs not just what he determines is visible on the card but what he knows and or what is visible should be noted.

I thought you might still answer this way? Your lack of acknowledging them in these PWCC threads lead me to believe that you'd still defend them.

The thing is, your reply is the same as it has always been, that some make mistakes.
I'm not trying to convert you to change your view but have you been following the Blow Out threads?

In my opinion, it is practically conclusive now that something fishy/nefarious is going on with them based on what I have seen that gets passed and assigned a numerical grade.

My opinion, like I stated earlier, was wishy washy once upon a time based on what you stated about them but with these recent PSA slabs that are being shown in just these past couple weeks alone, it is enough for me to cement my opinion.

It is clear, to me at least, based on what I have seen that I can no longer accept that these cards were simple mistakes made by the graders. I could accept the odd one here or there but there are far way too many of them now to even consider that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

[vthobby]

Here are some 1948 Bowmans that have NEVER been touched, bleached, trimmed or anything.......I'm not making an opinion on the Mikan, I just know where these 1948s came from so you can make your own comparisons.
They came from an original family's collection of 1948 low numbers. This is how real untouched 1948 Bowmans looks like. I still feel they are under graded but I'm biased as they are mine! :) You can also see how they almost fully fill the gaskets with barely no room to spare.
Just for comparison only!
Thanks! Mike

353782

353783

353784

[vintagetoppsguy]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

[CMIZ5290]

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?
David, I have to say that I somewhat agree with you. I have seen over the years, Sellers with extremely high end T206s get grades that boggled the mind. I dont want to mention names, but two of them have represented hundreds of high end T206s on Ebay. I'm talking 8's and 9's that weren't even close to being right. To me, this seems like something that could easily be corrupted with graders and crooked owners. Afterall, the margin between higher end grades can be very marginal unless you really look at these cards on a regular basis...One of these Sellers recently sold a ton of 8's that just weren't close to the grade IMO....I'm sure it also happens in other series of cards as well....

[Republicaninmass]

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.


Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

And the cash is sewn into a secret compartment in the box.

[Republicaninmass]

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.


Then you are a sucker. I hear the going rate is only a Grant.

[frankbmd]

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

Then you are a sucker. I hear the going rate is only a Grant.

Just put in a signed blank check to see who is correct.:D

[Kenny Cole]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

Well, no matter how hard I look, I don't see anywhere on the PSA website where they indicate that they will get it right unless the card has been altered by very good card doctors so it slips by them. Up to now, I sort of thought that getting it right was part of what PSA sold. Very clearly, that is not always the case.

I frankly have no idea how many mistakes they make on high-grade cards, where accuracy would seem to be rather important given the prices they now command, but just the number shown so far is more than sufficient to cause me concern. As I have previously said, trust is what PSA purportedly sells. I no longer trust PSA to get it right. The claim that it might be a "low percentage" of cards (thus far) is rather less important to me than the fact that a large percentage of those shown thus far are selling for a lot of money. That's not good.

[irv]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

[RedsFan1941]

seems like hats made of tin foil would be big sellers on the BST.

[irv]

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

I hope that is the case but my gut tells me it isn't. :confused:

[vintagetoppsguy]

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

[Kenny Cole]

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

David it's a fair point, one I've considered, but part of the equation is the work is very good and in some cases may make it past the senior graders too. I am not insisting I am right, just skeptical there is out and out corruption here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

Like his responses or not, at least Brent addresses the problems.

[ValKehl]

Does anyone besides me think this would be a good time to go short on CLCT stock? :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does anyone besides me think this would be a good time to go short on CLCT stock? :D

No. It's been discussed here some of the reasons why not. Forget which thread.

[swarmee]

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?
I just sent an email back to Steve Sloan and Betsy asking the same thing. This scandal is not blowing over.

[irv]

Unless I am missing something, look at how this newly discovered Ted Williams card resides in its PSA case. (Pg53)

Is it too much to expect anyone at PSA "should" clearly see it is not as wide as it should be? :confused:
Take a look at the "look and See" cards that were posted earlier in the thread below. There are many others going further back as well that makes me just shake my head in disbelief how these types of mistakes are allowed to continue.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=53

[bnorth]

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

Like his responses or not, at least Brent addresses the problems.

Because the people at PSA are not morons like Brent and Betsy. It baffles me how 2 otherwise intelligent people are too stupid to shut the BLEEP up.

Just look at any other of the latest greatest scandals. When the guilty person(s) was completely silent the scandal went away very quickly. The Mastro fiasco is a perfect example of this.

I just sent an email back to Steve Sloan and Betsy asking the same thing. This scandal is not blowing over.

It will just like all the others. I would be surprised if this lasts another 2 weeks and baffled beyond belief if it is still going in a month.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Because the people at PSA are not morons like Brent and Betsy. It baffles me how 2 otherwise intelligent people are too stupid to shut the BLEEP up.

Just look at any other of the latest greatest scandals. When the guilty person(s) was completely silent the scandal went away very quickly. The Mastro fiasco is a perfect example of this.



It will just like all the others. I would be surprised if this lasts another 2 weeks and baffled beyond belief if it is still going in a month.

Yeah I remember when the sky was falling because of all the slabs from Mexico. What happened to all that worry?

[bnorth]

Yeah I remember when the sky was falling because of all the slabs from Mexico. What happened to all that worry?

It went away but I would bet the slabs from Mexico didn't go away.:D

[vintagetoppsguy]

True, but PSA wasn't financially responsible for the slabs from Mexico, but they're on the hook big time for all these doctored cards.

[swarmee]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

[irv]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

Why would he do that? Are Brent and the owner of PSA really good friends or something? :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

[vintagewhitesox]

This is going to be exhibit A in the Criminal complaint and search warrant. It's almost like he's trying to define away the term fraud.

[commishbob]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.


Talk is cheap. I simply don't trust the guy.

[bnorth]

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

[bnorth]

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

[Leon]

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

Yep. He can't seem to help himself though. And now videos.

[steve B]

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?


I don't think PSA is doing their job correctly. And you are correct, that is the real problem. It wouldn't take catching every alteration, just nearly all of them.
The entire business model of faster turn around times for more expensive stuff is flawed, and invites alterations.

[ullmandds]

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Maybe we should go over the lots/some facts/falsities one by one and debunk/prove as fact/fiction???? Seems to me most are facts!

[perezfan]

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

This is spot-on. And I cannot believe more people haven't addressed and expounded on this aspect. The PSA element is far more dangerous and all-encompassing than PWCC's role. I can only assume the lack of focus and anger towards PSA is because nearly everyone here has a vested interest of some sort.

I really hope the FBI is watching this, and is planning to come down on these people... The first week of August in Chicago might be a great time for it. Would love to see them do to PSA exactly what they did to Mastro/Legendary.

[HolyGrail]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

[ullmandds]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Show me where Jefferson Burdick talked about cards as assets. Comparing Brent to JB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long long time!

[drcy]

Convenience and safe target. PSA is a sacred cow and ubiquitously ingrained in many people's collections.

I've for many years assumed that many high grade cards in PSA holders have been "conserved." Even one major auction house president years back advertised that they could "prep" your cards for grading.

Happily for me, owning '9s' and '10s' never interested me as a collector. Just my aesthetics/sentiments (and understanding that 'art is in the eye of the beholder'), but I never understood the need to own a Gem Mint copy of any particular card.

[calvindog]

I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?



Mastro

Doug Allen

John Rogers

[bobbyw8469]

Mastro

Doug Allen

John Rogers

lol.....and what do these entities have in common??

[Republicaninmass]

Dont blame the people who committed mortgage fraud, blame the lenders for allowing it.


Dont blame the Madoff for the stock fraud, blame wall street for allowing it.


Dont blame "no so bright" Brent and the collusion of people around him. Blame PSA for allowing it.


With both items bought sold on his platform multiple times, the shilling and bid retractions from whomever, the "dont worry you'll get outbid" rumors, it seems the ring has been caught red handed. There wouldn't be concrete evidence, only conjecture, if the numbskulls hadn't used NUMBERED cards

I know PWCC and his jug band of investment advisors recommend not bidding on a certain card to investors, but would they reccomend some conservation to get a better grade?


I am as shocked as anyone these cards passed PSA. I would assume a new card would be trimmed, but these vintage ones are bitter pill.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mastro

Doug Allen

John Rogers

At one point they were good for the hobby too, don't forget now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Would that be the same Old Judge who disgustedly asked of Brent, who made this guy king, and posted he would never buy from him again?

[boneheadandrube]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Thank you for successfully trolling all of the Peters in this thread.

[ullmandds]

Thank you for successfully trolling all of the Peters in this thread.

hahaha

[Leon]

If you look at what I highlighted it was the questioning of other things, not Brent or PWCC, which I was responding to. I am not going to get into those things in this thread although I will say I have never shilled a .99 cent postcard (or anything at all) of mine on ebay or anywhere else, ever :).

Maybe we should go over the lots/some facts/falsities one by one and debunk/prove as fact/fiction???? Seems to me most are facts!

[HolyGrail]

Show me where Jefferson Burdick talked about cards as assets. Comparing Brent to JB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long long time!

In the book, Mint Condition, Burdick railed against the inflation of prices in vintage cards-- to 10 cents! But he did sell and trade them as assets because they were worth something and gave him pleasure.

Of course, no one is in a league with Burdick, or ever will be, but he wheeled and dealed to complete his collection, just never on today's level.

[ullmandds]

In the book, Mint Condition, Burdick railed against the inflation of prices in vintage cards-- to 10 cents! But he did sell and trade them as assets because they were worth something and gave him pleasure.

Of course, no one is in a league with Burdick, or ever will be, but he wheeled and dealed to complete his collection, just never on today's level.

i've read MINT CONDITION...I'm struggling to comprehend what you've stated regarding JB...has anything to do with the current debacle with PWCC/PSA, etc.

Additionally you are extrapolating a tad bit it saying that JB considered cards as "ASSETS" just because he liked them and valued them to a degree.

[ullmandds]

I like turkey sandwiches and I value them as good healthy sustenance...but I would not consider them assets?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Man, as a kid I did not realize I was trading assets with my friends. But I guess I was, as I enjoyed the cards. So I was part of the trend that led up to Brent too, and I want credit.

[swarmee]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.
Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

"For the Good of the Hobby -- From Burdick to Brent"

[ajg]

George Costanza said it best. Never heard more double speak in my life.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ

[irv]

Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

Well said, John. :)

[vintagetoppsguy]

Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

Have you made these same demands from PSA? A list of the submitter(s) for the certs involved? A list of the employee(s) that graded those certs? What they plan on doing about all these cards? How about PSA contacting Brent for the buyers contact info so that PSA can contact them and offer to buy them back?

If you're going to make demands, just be fair about it and demand information from all parties involved.

[swarmee]

Have you made these same demands from PSA? A list of the submitter(s) for the certs involved? A list of the employee(s) that graded those certs? What they plan on doing about all these cards? How about PSA contacting Brent for the buyers contact info so that PSA can contact them and offer to buy them back?
I have been corresponding by email with PSA President Sloan. Haven't received anything back in a while. Highly recommended he publicly address the situation. BGS hasn't responded either to the hundreds of cards submitted by all the people they invite to their annual Industry Day: Kevin Burge, the Sliheets, etc.
Heck, we know most of the names now (at least we know a bunch). Just confirming that those guys are defrauding both companies would be a start. But Brent's stance that these trimmers/alterers/conservers can redeem themselves by taking their lumps is humorous. I don't think any of these guys will crawl out from under their rocks.

[JeremyW]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

David- Are you the person that writes the stories about cards on Forbes?

[groundskeeper]

Can someone explain this controversy very succinctly to me?

I have bought from PWCC before, but they don't grade cards, do they? Why is it so important what they think a card's grade is?

[bounce]

I have read essentially every post of every major thread, and I watched the entirety of the interview video. After having reviewed all of that, my question to anyone would be this:

Is there any doubt that both PWCC and the TPGs (PSA specifically at a minimum) are aware of at least SOME of the people who are suspected/accused of trimming cards?


I for one have absolutely NO DOUBT they know who these people are, several of which have well less than stellar hobby reputations going back a long time prior. I simply don't believe any reasonable person at this point could refute that both PWCC and PSA know exactly who many of these people are.

I also believe it is VIRTUALLY CERTAIN they actually knew these people well prior to the recent outbreak of threads questioning the unaltered state of many of these cards. Brent effectively said as much, without using names, in the video.

If you come to the conclusion that they did know, then it stands to reason that they certainly SHOULD HAVE known they were taking great risk to their brands and their services by associating with these people, whether via accepting their cards for grading or for consignment services.

As the TPGs have basically chosen silence to this point, there's really nothing to say about them other than lack of response and to this point perceived lack of action.

With PWCC, their responses in my view have three primary themes.

1) We don't think you really understand what alteration means, so we're going to tell you what it means (or, more realistically, what it doesn't mean).
2) If you can't see evidence of alteration on the card, then it must not really be altered.
3) We're mad we caught up in this, and TRUST US, we're going to make some people pay.

The problem with 1): There is HUGE diversity in opinion on what alteration means in this hobby. Brent speaks in the video of not wanting to pursue things that can't be done, so why is he unable to see this as one of those things? It is highly unlikely that all the TPGs are going to get together and form a consensus standard that is adopted hobby wide, right? Maybe not impossible, but not highly likely. I'm paraphrasing the video, but at one point he uses the phrase "...this is where I need people to think critically...". Probably not the best choice of phrase if you're trying to persuade people to your side of things.

The problem with 2): This is effectively saying they're "hiding behind the slab", i.e. if PSA slabbed it with a number, it must have met their standards, we're just the consignment house so don't be mad at us. This simply just doesn't work if you believe that they did indeed know who some of these people were and were accepting their submissions on consignment. They KNOWINGLY DEALT WITH THESE PEOPLE - PERIOD. Again paraphrasing, Brent said something to the effect of "...photos don't constitute evidence...". I respectfully disagree with Brent on that, and I imagine an extremely large percentage of the hobby does as well. Photos are actually some of the absolute best evidence there is, and photos are exactly the evidence that has shown the serial numbered cards have been trimmed and yet still made it in numbered slabs. According to Brent, if photos aren't evidence, then those cards aren't trimmed. No reasonable person could believe that, I don't believe for one second that HE believes that.

The problem with 3): PWCC has been mixed up in so many issues, from the Dimaggio "cleaning" to the retracted/shill bidding to the changing definition of altered to acting like we didn't really think these bad actors would do these bad things...

In basically every instance, PWCC had or still has a significant monetary interest in keeping things as they were, how they want it to be or to keep it quiet. They've been "reacting" to people calling these things out, not proactively looking to deal with them. They're promising to "make people pay", but they can't tell us who those people are. They can only tell that to the TPGs. THAT would certainly be a start, but that's not what transparency looks like. It's also NOT what leaders do.

Paraphrasing again, Brent says in the video he "can't revise auctions after they've started". He SHOULD KNOW that's not accurate, otherwise PWCC is literally the only seller on eBay who can't. You can ALWAYS add to the description up until the very near end of an auction (I don't know the specifics, might be 24 hours or something, I'm sure someone can look that up). It appears as a new "section" within the description with a date and time stamp. I believe he knows this, and has again said something that isn't true and is trying to make us believe he doesn't know it's not true. That erodes trust.

What they have contributed to leading is the push for cards specifically, but collectibles more generally, to be viewed as an "alternate asset class" for investment. Unfortunately, I think many people view that as "cheerleading".

Thus, I think most people have little to no faith that the "trust me" portion of the video actually means anything, as there really isn't sufficient substantive action and accountability historically to justify that trust.

[swarmee]

The gist:
PSA, Beckett, and PWCC are being used by a whole host of scammers that alter cards. These guys are trimming $100 cards to make them worth $500, $500 to be worth $3,000, and $5,000 to be worth $25,000. They have realized that PSA and Beckett (edit: originally had SGC here on accident) are unable to do the job they claim to: detect trimming and other alterations. Once the cards are in TPG holders, they are submitted through PWCC (and Probstein) so that you don't know which scammer's cards you're buying. That is the rub with a consignment service: the owner of a card is known only to the consignment house.

PSA has been silent on the matter. BGS has been silent on the matter. Both are exposed as grading companies, but PSA has the "Grade Guarantee" where they will pay someone who gets scammed the difference between the purchase price and the value of the altered card. In the past 6 months, a few guys on a different message board have started researching the internet to find original pictures of cards before slices of the cards were cut off or before creases were pressed out. These cards would therefore be liable to be returned to sender, because they don't deserve a number grade. Those same sleuths have figured out many of the scammers based on finding out which eBay accounts bought the cards, altered them, submitted them to PSA/BGS, and finally sold through Brent and Rick.

We're not talking small bills; we're talking fraud amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars exposed by just a few guys on a message board. And since Brent keeps talking/posting and asking for feedback for his ridiculous re-writing of what altered means, he keeps getting rightfully bashed.

[conor912]

Can someone explain this controversy very succinctly to me?

I have bought from PWCC before, but they don't grade cards, do they? Why is it so important what they think a card's grade is?

No. You can go back to post #1 and lose 10 hours of your life, just like the rest of us.

Kidding.

Not kidding.

[ullmandds]

Can someone explain this controversy very succinctly to me?

I have bought from PWCC before, but they don't grade cards, do they? Why is it so important what they think a card's grade is?

millenial?

[swarmee]

Yeah, you should read about 6-10 threads on Blowout forums as well with all the "evidence" showing before and after pictures.

[ullmandds]

i have read essentially every post of every major thread, and i watched the entirety of the interview video. After having reviewed all of that, my question to anyone would be this:

is there any doubt that both pwcc and the tpgs (psa specifically at a minimum) are aware of at least some of the people who are suspected/accused of trimming cards?


i for one have absolutely no doubt they know who these people are, several of which have well less than stellar hobby reputations going back a long time prior. I simply don't believe any reasonable person at this point could refute that both pwcc and psa know exactly who many of these people are.

I also believe it is virtually certain they actually knew these people well prior to the recent outbreak of threads questioning the unaltered state of many of these cards. Brent effectively said as much, without using names, in the video.

If you come to the conclusion that they did know, then it stands to reason that they certainly should have known they were taking great risk to their brands and their services by associating with these people, whether via accepting their cards for grading or for consignment services.

As the tpgs have basically chosen silence to this point, there's really nothing to say about them other than lack of response and to this point perceived lack of action.

With pwcc, their responses in my view have three primary themes.

1) we don't think you really understand what alteration means, so we're going to tell you what it means (or, more realistically, what it doesn't mean).
2) if you can't see evidence of alteration on the card, then it must not really be altered.
3) we're mad we caught up in this, and trust us, we're going to make some people pay.

The problem with 1): There is huge diversity in opinion on what alteration means in this hobby. Brent speaks in the video of not wanting to pursue things that can't be done, so why is he unable to see this as one of those things? It is highly unlikely that all the tpgs are going to get together and form a consensus standard that is adopted hobby wide, right? Maybe not impossible, but not highly likely. I'm paraphrasing the video, but at one point he uses the phrase "...this is where i need people to think critically...". Probably not the best choice of phrase if you're trying to persuade people to your side of things.

The problem with 2): This is effectively saying they're "hiding behind the slab", i.e. If psa slabbed it with a number, it must have met their standards, we're just the consignment house so don't be mad at us. This simply just doesn't work if you believe that they did indeed know who some of these people were and were accepting their submissions on consignment. They knowingly dealt with these people - period. Again paraphrasing, brent said something to the effect of "...photos don't constitute evidence...". I respectfully disagree with brent on that, and i imagine an extremely large percentage of the hobby does as well. Photos are actually some of the absolute best evidence there is, and photos are exactly the evidence that has shown the serial numbered cards have been trimmed and yet still made it in numbered slabs. According to brent, if photos aren't evidence, then those cards aren't trimmed. No reasonable person could believe that, i don't believe for one second that he believes that.

The problem with 3): Pwcc has been mixed up in so many issues, from the dimaggio "cleaning" to the retracted/shill bidding to the changing definition of altered to acting like we didn't really think these bad actors would do these bad things...

In basically every instance, pwcc had or still has a significant monetary interest in keeping things as they were, how they want it to be or to keep it quiet. They've been "reacting" to people calling these things out, not proactively looking to deal with them. They're promising to "make people pay", but they can't tell us who those people are. They can only tell that to the tpgs. That would certainly be a start, but that's not what transparency looks like. It's also not what leaders do.

Paraphrasing again, brent says in the video he "can't revise auctions after they've started". He should know that's not accurate, otherwise pwcc is literally the only seller on ebay who can't. You can always add to the description up until the very near end of an auction (i don't know the specifics, might be 24 hours or something, i'm sure someone can look that up). It appears as a new "section" within the description with a date and time stamp. I believe he knows this, and has again said something that isn't true and is trying to make us believe he doesn't know it's not true. That erodes trust.

What they have contributed to leading is the push for cards specifically, but collectibles more generally, to be viewed as an "alternate asset class" for investment. Unfortunately, i think many people view that as "cheerleading".

Thus, i think most people have little to no faith that the "trust me" portion of the video actually means anything, as there really isn't sufficient substantive action and accountability historically to justify that trust.

exactly!

[Peter_Spaeth]

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Anyone who says before and after pictures are not evidence, I mean why even bother listening or trying to respond?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, you should read about 6-10 threads on Blowout forums as well with all the "evidence" showing before and after pictures.

Those aren't evidence, dude, just ask Brent.

[swarmee]

That's why I put it in air quotes....

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's why I put it in air quotes....

Understood.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have read essentially every post of every major thread, and I watched the entirety of the interview video. After having reviewed all of that, my question to anyone would be this:

Is there any doubt that both PWCC and the TPGs (PSA specifically at a minimum) are aware of at least SOME of the people who are suspected/accused of trimming cards?


I for one have absolutely NO DOUBT they know who these people are, several of which have well less than stellar hobby reputations going back a long time prior. I simply don't believe any reasonable person at this point could refute that both PWCC and PSA know exactly who many of these people are.

I also believe it is VIRTUALLY CERTAIN they actually knew these people well prior to the recent outbreak of threads questioning the unaltered state of many of these cards. Brent effectively said as much, without using names, in the video.

If you come to the conclusion that they did know, then it stands to reason that they certainly SHOULD HAVE known they were taking great risk to their brands and their services by associating with these people, whether via accepting their cards for grading or for consignment services.

As the TPGs have basically chosen silence to this point, there's really nothing to say about them other than lack of response and to this point perceived lack of action.

With PWCC, their responses in my view have three primary themes.

1) We don't think you really understand what alteration means, so we're going to tell you what it means (or, more realistically, what it doesn't mean).
2) If you can't see evidence of alteration on the card, then it must not really be altered.
3) We're mad we caught up in this, and TRUST US, we're going to make some people pay.

The problem with 1): There is HUGE diversity in opinion on what alteration means in this hobby. Brent speaks in the video of not wanting to pursue things that can't be done, so why is he unable to see this as one of those things? It is highly unlikely that all the TPGs are going to get together and form a consensus standard that is adopted hobby wide, right? Maybe not impossible, but not highly likely. I'm paraphrasing the video, but at one point he uses the phrase "...this is where I need people to think critically...". Probably not the best choice of phrase if you're trying to persuade people to your side of things.

The problem with 2): This is effectively saying they're "hiding behind the slab", i.e. if PSA slabbed it with a number, it must have met their standards, we're just the consignment house so don't be mad at us. This simply just doesn't work if you believe that they did indeed know who some of these people were and were accepting their submissions on consignment. They KNOWINGLY DEALT WITH THESE PEOPLE - PERIOD. Again paraphrasing, Brent said something to the effect of "...photos don't constitute evidence...". I respectfully disagree with Brent on that, and I imagine an extremely large percentage of the hobby does as well. Photos are actually some of the absolute best evidence there is, and photos are exactly the evidence that has shown the serial numbered cards have been trimmed and yet still made it in numbered slabs. According to Brent, if photos aren't evidence, then those cards aren't trimmed. No reasonable person could believe that, I don't believe for one second that HE believes that.

The problem with 3): PWCC has been mixed up in so many issues, from the Dimaggio "cleaning" to the retracted/shill bidding to the changing definition of altered to acting like we didn't really think these bad actors would do these bad things...

In basically every instance, PWCC had or still has a significant monetary interest in keeping things as they were, how they want it to be or to keep it quiet. They've been "reacting" to people calling these things out, not proactively looking to deal with them. They're promising to "make people pay", but they can't tell us who those people are. They can only tell that to the TPGs. THAT would certainly be a start, but that's not what transparency looks like. It's also NOT what leaders do.

Paraphrasing again, Brent says in the video he "can't revise auctions after they've started". He SHOULD KNOW that's not accurate, otherwise PWCC is literally the only seller on eBay who can't. You can ALWAYS add to the description up until the very near end of an auction (I don't know the specifics, might be 24 hours or something, I'm sure someone can look that up). It appears as a new "section" within the description with a date and time stamp. I believe he knows this, and has again said something that isn't true and is trying to make us believe he doesn't know it's not true. That erodes trust.

What they have contributed to leading is the push for cards specifically, but collectibles more generally, to be viewed as an "alternate asset class" for investment. Unfortunately, I think many people view that as "cheerleading".

Thus, I think most people have little to no faith that the "trust me" portion of the video actually means anything, as there really isn't sufficient substantive action and accountability historically to justify that trust.

On the vintage side, and presumably modern too, the identities of the major card doctors are well-known. These guys more or less operate in the open and every major dealer, collector, and grading service knows exactly who they are. And so does law enforcement. It's a fair question to ask, so how the f--- do they keep doing what they do? I know some pieces of the answer but not all, and I just hope, as I've said, that the grading companies aren't being paid to be complicit.

[calvindog]

Anyone who says before and after pictures are not evidence, I mean why even bother listening or trying to respond?

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

Win win, sounds like.

[JeremyW]

David- Are you the person that writes the stories about cards on Forbes?

I'm still waiting for an answer,

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm still waiting for an answer,

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/#480c93a99783

compare to name in his post

[JeremyW]

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

That sounds like an incredibly profitable proposition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

With stickers too?:eek:

[vintagetoppsguy]

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

What makes you think Brent is submitting on behalf of Moser and it's not Moser himself submitting? If this has already been discussed, then I overlooked it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm still waiting for an answer,

Yes it is.

[ullmandds]

mom was right...birds of a feather...

[JeremyW]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/#480c93a99783

compare to name in his post

For someone who's been in the hobby for 50 years, according to him, I wonder what his motives are?

[Fuddjcal]

Show me where Jefferson Burdick talked about cards as assets. Comparing Brent to JB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long long time!

comparing him to Mastro is more parallel. He has been in bed with edward scissorhands for a long long time and PSA is complicit in his crimes, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

i have read essentially every post of every major thread, and i watched the entirety of the interview video. After having reviewed all of that, my question to anyone would be this:

is there any doubt that both pwcc and the tpgs (psa specifically at a minimum) are aware of at least some of the people who are suspected/accused of trimming cards?


i for one have absolutely no doubt they know who these people are, several of which have well less than stellar hobby reputations going back a long time prior. I simply don't believe any reasonable person at this point could refute that both pwcc and psa know exactly who many of these people are.

I also believe it is virtually certain they actually knew these people well prior to the recent outbreak of threads questioning the unaltered state of many of these cards. Brent effectively said as much, without using names, in the video.

If you come to the conclusion that they did know, then it stands to reason that they certainly should have known they were taking great risk to their brands and their services by associating with these people, whether via accepting their cards for grading or for consignment services.

As the tpgs have basically chosen silence to this point, there's really nothing to say about them other than lack of response and to this point perceived lack of action.

With pwcc, their responses in my view have three primary themes.

1) we don't think you really understand what alteration means, so we're going to tell you what it means (or, more realistically, what it doesn't mean).
2) if you can't see evidence of alteration on the card, then it must not really be altered.
3) we're mad we caught up in this, and trust us, we're going to make some people pay.

The problem with 1): There is huge diversity in opinion on what alteration means in this hobby. Brent speaks in the video of not wanting to pursue things that can't be done, so why is he unable to see this as one of those things? It is highly unlikely that all the tpgs are going to get together and form a consensus standard that is adopted hobby wide, right? Maybe not impossible, but not highly likely. I'm paraphrasing the video, but at one point he uses the phrase "...this is where i need people to think critically...". Probably not the best choice of phrase if you're trying to persuade people to your side of things.

The problem with 2): This is effectively saying they're "hiding behind the slab", i.e. If psa slabbed it with a number, it must have met their standards, we're just the consignment house so don't be mad at us. This simply just doesn't work if you believe that they did indeed know who some of these people were and were accepting their submissions on consignment. They knowingly dealt with these people - period. Again paraphrasing, brent said something to the effect of "...photos don't constitute evidence...". I respectfully disagree with brent on that, and i imagine an extremely large percentage of the hobby does as well. Photos are actually some of the absolute best evidence there is, and photos are exactly the evidence that has shown the serial numbered cards have been trimmed and yet still made it in numbered slabs. According to brent, if photos aren't evidence, then those cards aren't trimmed. No reasonable person could believe that, i don't believe for one second that he believes that.

The problem with 3): Pwcc has been mixed up in so many issues, from the dimaggio "cleaning" to the retracted/shill bidding to the changing definition of altered to acting like we didn't really think these bad actors would do these bad things...

In basically every instance, pwcc had or still has a significant monetary interest in keeping things as they were, how they want it to be or to keep it quiet. They've been "reacting" to people calling these things out, not proactively looking to deal with them. They're promising to "make people pay", but they can't tell us who those people are. They can only tell that to the tpgs. That would certainly be a start, but that's not what transparency looks like. It's also not what leaders do.

Paraphrasing again, brent says in the video he "can't revise auctions after they've started". He should know that's not accurate, otherwise pwcc is literally the only seller on ebay who can't. You can always add to the description up until the very near end of an auction (i don't know the specifics, might be 24 hours or something, i'm sure someone can look that up). It appears as a new "section" within the description with a date and time stamp. I believe he knows this, and has again said something that isn't true and is trying to make us believe he doesn't know it's not true. That erodes trust.

What they have contributed to leading is the push for cards specifically, but collectibles more generally, to be viewed as an "alternate asset class" for investment. Unfortunately, i think many people view that as "cheerleading".

Thus, i think most people have little to no faith that the "trust me" portion of the video actually means anything, as there really isn't sufficient substantive action and accountability historically to justify that trust.

exactimundo

[Fuddjcal]

He gets a pass as he’s doing a lot of good things for the hobby. Like submitting raw, altered cards to PSA for Gary Moser. Cards that were bought by Moser in PWCC auctions and cracked out and altered. Then given back to Brent, raw, who submitted them to PSA under his own name and sold the altered, newly-slabbed card in his auctions for Moser.

Brent Mastro is a very slimy individual, that much is PROVEN already IMHO. He does nothing he says he's gonna do and that my friends speaks volumes about his Integrity. HE HAS ZERO and is a ZERO

[Fuddjcal]

Have you made these same demands from PSA? A list of the submitter(s) for the certs involved? A list of the employee(s) that graded those certs? What they plan on doing about all these cards? How about PSA contacting Brent for the buyers contact info so that PSA can contact them and offer to buy them back?

If you're going to make demands, just be fair about it and demand information from all parties involved.

Because PSA aint sharing squat and neither is Brent Mastro. Hopefully, law enforcement will make them both comply but that is very unlikely.

[Fuddjcal]

Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

You must be kidding Swarm, Investigative journalism doesn't exist anymore. Otherwise, the forbes guy would do the research the guys at BO are doing and write something that would ultimately help the hobby instead of flooding the market with trimmed cards and fluffy asset stories, giving Brent Mastro the verbal bj. No, that would take too much effort.

[Fuddjcal]

True, but PSA wasn't financially responsible for the slabs from Mexico, but they're on the hook big time for all these doctored cards.

a client of mine had their personal care products (branded perfume) counterfeited and they were made by the DTSC (perfume was flammable) to pay for the destruction of 2- truckloads of counterfeit goods as it had "THEIR NAME ON IT". Only cost them 70K to get rid of the criminals product. PSA should be held to the same standard.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I said this elsewhere but I think it bears repeating here:

Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.

[bobbyw8469]

I said this elsewhere but I think it bears repeating here:

Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.


Agreed. And who was foolish enough to do it on modern cards that are already numbered from the manufacturer?? While these guys are talented and have been making money hand over fist for quite some time, they sure blew it on that minor (but huge) detail.

[Fuddjcal]

I wonder if Dr Cards is a client of Brent Mastro?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYVdD6WTYYU

not that it bothers me. it just shows him waxing the card, not trimming.

[Republicaninmass]

Agreed. And who was foolish enough to do it on modern cards that are already numbered from the manufacturer?? While these guys are talented and have been making money hand over fist for quite some time, they sure blew it on that minor (but huge) detail.

Greed isnt always good

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agreed. And who was foolish enough to do it on modern cards that are already numbered from the manufacturer?? While these guys are talented and have been making money hand over fist for quite some time, they sure blew it on that minor (but huge) detail.

Big money in those cards, for whatever reason they are what the modern dudes crave.

[MULLINS5]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

[groundskeeper]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

Yeah, but no one is buying anything based on what they say in their description. It's PSA that matters. If THEY are doing bad stuff, that's a much bigger and much more improtant scandal than PWCC saying something has great eye appeal or whatever meaningless stuff they put. Now, if they KNOW they are posting altered cards, that's a scandal, too-- and I think people should be clear about it when they accuse them of that.

I don't like PWCC auctions. I've posted before they don't make sense to me and I think it's the card owner buying his own card to inflate prices in many cases (I documented that in a post). But for the <$1000 cards, sometimes they have decent stuff.

[peterose4hof]

Greed isnt always good

Says who?

https://photos.imageevent.com/allredscards/tobemoved/websize/greed.jpg

[SMPEP]

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

[bobbyw8469]

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive.

[bnorth]

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.:)

[vintagetoppsguy]

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.:)

That's what collecting should be about. I bet you're probably a lot more happy than the guys with deep pockets who set at the top of the registry.

[Frank A]

You know there are 2 or 3 threads on the board at the same time talking about the same stuff. Nobody seems to want to say the truth. So here it is. The lowlife card doctors who are repairing, yes repairing cards to get higher grades are nothing but PUKE. The auctioneers who are selling this stuff are not 1 notch higher. They know who is giving them cards to sell but keep right on with it. And third the Grading company's who pass this stuff are disgusting. They take the hard earned money of collectors to grade their cards but kiss the asses of the big submitters. They are the lowest of the group. That's the truth here, not all the nonsense being pushed on this thread.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

That's what collecting should be about. I bet you're probably a lot more happy than the guys with deep pockets who set at the top of the registry.David and Ben,

I have been thinking this throughout these threads. I have recently purchased two Cobbs, a Lajoie, and a Mathewson...all 2s with nice eye appeal and obvious flaws. I also have picked up E90-1 commons that aren't exactly high grade, and I really enjoy them. I am not afraid to touch them and hold them. It is fascinating to me where all they have been, who has owned them, etc.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190522/ea4316e8b10a59c476985a7e550ade83.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190522/d4b490a0e44b313964089bfb2b5b736d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190522/148c84f26e5cbd39c4003c44b119addc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190522/9f41fb8b8d4fbc6718aff2c763c3c188.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190522/e093234e30cf40081bc24ad345f1fc45.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.:)Agreed!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CMIZ5290]

Not to change the subject, but what ever happened to all of the bid shilling talk? Did it just magically disappear?

[swarmee]

It pops up from time to time, but it's not as sustained or investigated as it was a couple of years ago when the 1950s HOF rookies were tripling in a year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It pops up from time to time, but it's not as sustained or investigated as it was a couple of years ago when the 1950s HOF rookies were tripling in a year.

Tripling in a month in some cases lol.

[irv]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

That was likely a very good decision! Just noticed this Boom Boom Geoffrion card on BO that received some very serious trimming that PSA, again, didn't catch.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=58

[ruth_rookie]

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.:)

That’s the most awesome thing I’ve read in weeks! Truly what it’s all about.

[Fuddjcal]

You know there are 2 or 3 threads on the board at the same time talking about the same stuff. Nobody seems to want to say the truth. So here it is. The lowlife card doctors who are repairing, yes repairing cards to get higher grades are nothing but PUKE. The auctioneers who are selling this stuff are not 1 notch higher. They know who is giving them cards to sell but keep right on with it. And third the Grading company's who pass this stuff are disgusting. They take the hard earned money of collectors to grade their cards but kiss the asses of the big submitters. They are the lowest of the group. That's the truth here, not all the nonsense being pushed on this thread.

IN A NUTSHELL! This sums it up for how I feel as well. Thanks for having the balls to put it out there. This is why it is so disgusting, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

Not to change the subject, but what ever happened to all of the bid shilling talk? Did it just magically disappear?

that is Hilarious AND TRUE.:D

[drcy]

I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

I've always considered the paying of $80,000 for PSA 10 Topps Sandy Koufax and such to be like a different collecting hobby. It's "other people" who do that stuff and not an area where I collect. What they want to do is almost none of my business.

Though it does offend my ethical and moral standards and "history sense" when people altered what are historical artifacts for $$-- and, of course, when it's done in the process of scamming people and breaking the law doesn't help. That keeps me interested.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've always considered the paying of $80,000 for PSA 10 Topps Sandy Koufax and such to be like a different collecting hobby. It's "other people" who do that stuff and not an area where I collect. What they want to do is almost none of my business.

Though it does offend my ethical and moral standards and "history sense" when people altered what are historical artifacts for $$-- and, of course, when it's done in the process of scamming people and breaking the law doesn't help. That keeps me interested.

I think in 2016 an 8 might have sold -- allegedly -- for that. I will never forget Bill Goodwin touting it as a 200K card. He lost all credibility with me.

[drcy]

I think in 2016 an 8 might have sold -- allegedly -- for that. I will never forget Bill Goodwin touting it as a 200K card. He lost all credibility with me.

I admit that my pricing may be way out of date.

[calvindog]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14698891&postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14698891&postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

Raw COLLECTION, not set. LOL I guess you could call a group of altered cards a collection.

[CMIZ5290]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14698891&postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.
+1 spot on....Unbelievable.....

[Republicaninmass]

Poor Brent, these card doctors keep nailing him to the cross.

If Brent said it came from a raw set, he subbed it?

[CMIZ5290]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14698891&postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

I remember doing business with Brent in the late 90's when I believe he was playing high school football.....He has really stepped up his game

[CMIZ5290]

Poor Brent, these card doctors keep nailing him to the cross.

If Brent said it came from a raw set, he subbed it?

Another spot on...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I remember doing business with Brent in the late 90's when I believe he was playing high school football.....He has really stepped up his game

I wonder whose cards he was selling way back then.

[calvindog]

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

He loved piñatas, as I recall.

[Leon]

It is times like this I wish you would text more.

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

[brad31]

I read that description on the Hornsby as PWCC knowing whom it came form and then subbing the card on his behalf. To me this now gets to the level where PWCC shares more blame than SGC on this card or PSA on cards they submitted to them.

Knowing this card comes from Gary Moser and actually submitting it on his behalf because he is presumably on a “no submission” list from The TPGs is purposely trying to get an altered card through. He is using his reputation and clout as a large customer of the grading companies to add credibility to an altered card. While this card is not trimmed like the others something was certainly done to remove the discolorations.

Up until this point I was thinking the TPGs were primarily at fault. Now I put it more at 50-50. I was a customer of PWCC - I am going to spend my $ elsewhere now. I am certainly not a large customer by their standards - but if enough smaller fish (a few grand a year) stop buying from them it may hurt their bottom line at least a little bit.

I hope I was not duped with any of my purchases from them. I am sure all large sellers have unknowingly sold altered cards - but this seems more shady than that.

Edited to add name per request from Leon: Brad Sherlag

[Peter_Spaeth]

I read that description on the Hornsby as PWCC knowing whom it came form and then subbing the card on his behalf. To me this now gets to the level where PWCC shares more blame than SGC on this card or PSA on cards they submitted to them.

Knowing this card comes from Gary Moser and actually submitting it on his behalf because he is presumably on a “no submission” list from The TPGs is purposely trying to get an altered card through. He is using his reputation and clout as a large customer of the grading companies to add credibility to an altered card. While this card is not trimmed like the others something was certainly done to remove the discolorations.

Up until this point I was thinking the TPGs were primarily at fault. Now I put it more at 50-50. I was a customer of PWCC - I am going to spend my $ elsewhere now. I am certainly not a large customer by their standards - but if enough smaller fish (a few grand a year) stop buying from them it may hurt their bottom line at least a little bit.

I hope I was not duped with any of my purchases from them. I am sure all large sellers have unknowingly sold altered cards - but this seems more shady than that.

One wonders, assuming Brent was just the nominal purchaser/submitter as I believe he stated, on whose behalf he was acting on the 36 WWG DiMaggio. I suppose one could speculate and one might be right.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

Most people that are on Net 54 have no idea who my brother is (Some days I wish the same. :-)) and the choas he could drum up.

Lee Behrens

[brad31]

In assigning blame I neglected to mention the person who doctored the card.

Card Doctor = perpetrator - 50%

PWCC = facilitator (until vouching for the collection the raw card that they submitted came from in the card’s write-up thought they were the first victim) - 25%

TPG - first victim but is in business to find these - 24%

Collector who was duped and bought the card - 1% - main victim - but most of us see a beautiful card and want to believe it somehow was well preserved for all this time. To me this collector has the obligation to present back to the TPG if made aware and try to collect on the guarantee and hopefully end the string. For this to happen the TPG needs to keep or destroy the card. Otherwise....

Someone cracks out - resubmits - TPG misses it and the cycle repeats.

To me PSA as the largest TPG should be looking ahead to try and better stop this. They should be scanning every graded card. They should invest in software that matches a card to the same card if in their database. The likely match photos should be given to the graders. This is likely years away but if they cannot do what the sleuths that comb through worthpoint can do at some point - then their credibility will go away. Until that time they need to use these cards as training material for their graders and look at if their throughout expectations allow for sufficient time to see some of these. They will never be perfect - but hopefully they strive to get better. This is what their business is built on and hopefully they understand that and are investing in continuous improvement.

Each time a fraudster’s EBay buyer ID is discovered, the sleuths find scores of examples of alterations from the same person that slipped through the TPGs. This over time leaves a bad taste for more and more collectors.

I do not post here very often but did bid and lose on one of the cards that was exposed. I resisted graded cards until it seemed like there were few raw higher grade cards of HOF from the 50’s and 60’s. As the proportion swung it seemed like there must be something wrong with anything raw even if I cannot see it. I believe I have the ability and knowledge to look at a raw card and assess a grade. I do not believe I have the knowledge to find alterations. That is what I pay a premium for graded cards to do on my behalf. I love this hobby and my collection. I am sure I have altered cards. If one of mine ever shows up I plan on contacting the TPG.

These posts are one collectors opinion on this latest grouping of permanently damaged cards.

Brad Sherlag

[bounce]

To me this collector has the obligation to present back to the TPG if made aware and try to collect on the guarantee and hopefully end the string. For this to happen the TPG needs to keep or destroy the card. Otherwise....


That's not really how the guarantee works, does it? They give you the difference in value between what it says and what it really is.

Why couldn't you keep the money and the card reslabbed as whatever it should say (presumably altered in most of these instances)?

Yes, leaves open the possibility that it makes it back into circulation, but that's really the issue at the TPG.

I don't see destroying the card as an option unless the current owner just says "here take it back." I guess at that point the TPG could do what they want.

[brad31]

I would rather have the whole value from the TPG. I do not knowingly collect altered cards and my fear is if I sold it it would end up in a graded holder again in the future. If they gave me the card back As my only choice I would have to sell it in the altered holder and hope it stays that way.

I think the TPG would be better off keeping the card stamping it altered and using it to train their graders. I know this will probably never happen.

[jchcollins]

Good grief, go read the comments over on the actual YouTube video...they mirror some of the threads here. PWCC at this point is delusional if they think anything good is going to come from this "conservation" sham.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good grief, go read the comments over on the actual YouTube video...they mirror some of the threads here. PWCC at this point is delusional if they think anything good is going to come from this "conservation" sham.

Most -- not all -- are smart and savvy enough to see right through it.

[D. Bergin]

:confused:

Confused a bit here. I've skimmed through this entire thread, even did a word search on my computer, but haven't exactly stayed up to date on all the other threads on this subject.

It seems like Brent and PWCC keep using the word "conservation", when they should really be using the word "restoration", because that's what's really going on with most of these cards.

If he want's to push this agenda at least use the right terms. It's something that's perfectly acceptable in other hobbies and collectible fields, as long as it's disclosed..........and then the market decides what those things are actually worth in comparison to the originals.

Conservation indicates you're using some sort of process to keep the item from being damaged to begin with. Like putting it in a slab, or a plastic sheet, or coating it with rust protector.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes this has been noted many times, he can't even get the vocabulary right. Or it's deliberate misuse of the word, because conservation sounds so benign and well intentioned.

[D. Bergin]

Yes this has been noted many times, he can't even get the vocabulary right. Or it's deliberate misuse of the word, because conservation sounds so benign and well intentioned.

LOL, nevermind. I just saw the other thread right at the top of the front page.

:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL, nevermind. I just saw the other thread right at the top of the front page.

:D

LOL. If you have a few minutes check out some of the links to Blowout. Viewed in that context, it's all .... in my opinion ... disingenuous as hell.

[iowadoc77]

LOL. If you have a few minutes check out some of the links to Blowout. Viewed in that context, it's all .... in my opinion ... disingenuous as hell.

A minute?! Try several hours! The evidence is mounting. And great wording- disingenuous as hell

[CMIZ5290]

What is really sickening is all the money he manages to keep on making on Ebay despite obvious bad doings, disregarding warnings and threats from other people, and he just keeps laughing all the way to the bank. First the bid shilling and now this latest bull shit.:confused:

[ullmandds]

What is really sickening is all the money he manages to keep on making on Ebay despite obvious bad doings, and he just keeps laughing all the way to the bank. First the bid shilling and now this latest bull shit.:confused:

Kevin....agreed!!! We have found common ground!!! Have your opinions changed regarding PSA’s credibility?

[drcy]

I agree in no name calling and all that, and Net54 can sometimes get harsh.

However when someone posts (paraphrase) the reasoning that "Altered cards are worth less than unaltered cards, thus there is no incentive to sneak altered cards past graders," it is not a matter of poll or chatboard debate or number supportive PMs as to whether that statement is illogical. It just is.

[Fuddjcal]

It is times like this I wish you would text more.

:DThat's funny.... We love ya Leon.

[Snapolit1]

Other than complete megalomania, or really bad legal or PR advice, can’t imagine what he thinks the point of these presentations is. Does he have even one lawyer to tell him to shut up?

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin....agreed!!! We have found common ground!!! Have your opinions changed regarding PSA’s credibility?

Pete- My honest opinion is this, I think the major graders are corrupt to some degree (Not just PSA), and I get sick and tired of seeing T206s graded 8's that absolutely look like 6's...I've said this before, I'll say it again, there are two heavy hitters on Ebay that get grades that are absolutely baffling...I think this also exists with SGC and I have also seen this as well. This is why all of this matters.....Most people buy the HOLDERS and not the card, I don't. If you take a common PSA 6 vs. a PSA 8, you are talking about $250 vs. $2500-3000....This is a hobby that is so easy to corrupt....And people it happens, believe me....

[ullmandds]

Pete- My honest opinion is this, I think the major graders are corrupt to some degree (Not just PSA), and I get sick and tired of seeing T206s graded 8's that absolutely look like 6's...I've said this before, I'll say it again, there are two heavy hitters on Ebay that get grades that are absolutely baffling...I think this also exists with SGC and I have also seen this as well. This is why all of this matters.....Most people buy the holders and not the card, I don't. If you take a common PSA 6 vs. a PSA 8, you are talking about $250 vs. $2500-3000....

+1...I've never been too condition sensitive...like you...so I haven't scrutinized many high grade cards in my life...but I totally agree! The whole system is jacked...and it's time to drain the black swamp!!

[CMIZ5290]

+1...I've never been too condition sensitive...like you...so I haven't scrutinized many high grade cards in my life...but I totally agree! The whole system is jacked...and it's time to drain the black swamp!!

I wish I could name names, but I'm beyond that and I won't.... Having said that, There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that corruption is going on with grading. None....

[CMIZ5290]

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Lumbergh.png

delete