PWCC vault?

[jayshum]

I received an email from PWCC that I could use their vault as the address to ship any purchases from them, eBay, other auctions, etc. By doing this, I would avoid paying sales tax since the address for the vault is in Oregon.

Does anyone use this? If so, can you provide me with more information about how it works and what costs there are associated with it? The email mentions an ingestion fee equal to 0.5% of the market value of the card for the first year of storage, but then it says something about requesting fulfillment at any time after ingestion which is usually 5 to 7 business days. Any explanation of how this actually works would be appreciated.

[calvindog]

You should speak to an accountant before you do this. Something advertised as existing solely to help you avoid paying sales tax requires some professional advice. As it’s a PWCC invention I’d probably speak to three CPAs.

[iowadoc77]

You should speak to an accountant before you do this. Something advertised as existing solely to help you avoid paying sales tax requires some professional advice. As it’s a PWCC invention I’d probably speak to three CPAs.

Hey Jeff, You think 3 is enough? Sounds a bit sketchy

And as an aside, I tend to get fulfillment less than 5-7 days after ingestion!

[ullmandds]

You should speak to an accountant before you do this. Something advertised as existing solely to help you avoid paying sales tax requires some professional advice. As it’s a PWCC invention I’d probably speak to three CPAs.

1 for each sticker?

[Snapolit1]

My experience says that states aren’t too accepting of transparent efforts to avoid paying sales tax. Just sayin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lots of things that are set up to avoid or reduce taxes seem more form over substance. It's hard for me to believe PWCC is out there publicizing this without having vetted it with legal and accounting advisers. Then again...

[bbsports]

I received the same e-mail from P.W.C.C. They mean well, but as a N.J. resident, this state are very strict about their state tax so I would not be interested in putting my cards in a their vault. Also, heaven for bid, something happens to the company or the state steps in & cleans out what's in the vault? I can be affected. You are correct, this should not be brought out out publicly. The whole idea is too risky for me.

[frankbmd]

I’ve been fortunate to visit 49 states in my lifetime missing only Oregon.

If I pack up my collection and send it to the vault, would I be able to visit them???

If not, I’ll just send them to Zimbabwe? I’ve never been there either.

The idea of a remote collection intrigues me.

[bobbyw8469]

I don't know what to think about this vault. What happens if you die and no one knows what is in "the vault". I mean, it's an interesting concept. Just too many unkowns.

[ullmandds]

I don't know what to think about this vault. What happens if you die and no one knows what is in "the vault". I mean, it's an interesting concept. Just too many unkowns.

it's kinda similar to the idea of owning a part of a card?

Personally it's not something I'd be interested in...more of a concept for "investors."


If you buy a high buck card from PWCC...save on taxes intially...with the intent to resell through PWCC at a later date.

[tschock]

I don't know what to think about this vault. What happens if you die and no one knows what is in "the vault". I mean, it's an interesting concept. Just too many unkowns.

.... and can someone with a bottle of Peach Schnapps open "The Vault"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

it's kinda similar to the idea of owning a part of a card?

Personally it's not something I'd be interested in...more of a concept for "investors."


If you buy a high buck card from PWCC...save on taxes intially...with the intent to resell through PWCC at a later date.

Right -- you never have to see or touch the stupid card. It's just an asset on a balance sheet.

[ullmandds]

Right -- you never have to see or touch the stupid card. It's just an asset on a balance sheet.

exactly!!

[bobbyw8469]

Right -- you never have to see or touch the stupid card. It's just an asset on a balance sheet.

Wait...cards are stupid??

[Sean]

Wait...cards are stupid??

My cards aren't stupid, they're just a little slow.

[ullmandds]

my cards ride the short bus to the vault!

[Peter_Spaeth]

my cards ride the short bus to the vault!

Where they are promptly ingested.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Will card owners be allowed to come and spend time with their cards in the vault?
If so, perhaps an Airbnb or Extended Stay America could be built on site. :)

[Lorewalker]

It's hard for me to believe PWCC is out there publicizing this without having vetted it with legal and accounting advisers. Then again...

Ya think? https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/vault Only concept they highlight is the sales tax-free state. See for yourself.

Dunno about anyone else but I would feel much better leaving my stuff at home or at a bank.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They now also offer investment advice.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/investment-advising

[KingFisk]

They now also offer investment advice.



https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/investment-advisingThis all really feels like the excess before the collapse.

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[bobbyw8469]

This all really feels like the excess before the collapse.

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I'm with you Carl.....Does any other collectible do all this?? Comics? Coins? Art???

[steve B]

I'm with you Carl.....Does any other collectible do all this?? Comics? Coins? Art???


From what I've heard, most dealers/auctions at the high end of things regularly work with clients to help them build a collection that meets their goals. If those goals are primarily investment related then that's what they do.


A good regular brick and mortar dealer does the same thing, just at a lower level, and with less formality. The guys I used to go to back in the day would occasionally hand me a Goudey Ruth and tell me "this is $100 you should buy it" Sadly that was advice I never took.

[Snapolit1]

I have a PO Box in the Dominican Republic. Anyone wants to list me as the owner and have high priced cards sent directly to my "vault" please reach out for details. And I will charge a small price for this service.

[darwinbulldog]

https://www.etopps.com/

[KingFisk]

From what I've heard, most dealers/auctions at the high end of things regularly work with clients to help them build a collection that meets their goals. If those goals are primarily investment related then that's what they do.





A good regular brick and mortar dealer does the same thing, just at a lower level, and with less formality. The guys I used to go to back in the day would occasionally hand me a Goudey Ruth and tell me "this is $100 you should buy it" Sadly that was advice I never took.That all makes sense, but the PWCC Investment Advisory board, complete with Merrill Lynch looking photo is a bit much. I'm not saying it's predatory, but it feels a wee bit over the top. Would like to see their bona fides.

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[perezfan]

I don't know what to think about this vault. What happens if you die and no one knows what is in "the vault". I mean, it's an interesting concept. Just too many unkowns.

That's why we have Geraldo Rivera. He can make amends for the Al Capone fiasco, and your cards might even get some TV exposure. :rolleyes:

[Republicaninmass]

Wheres Dpeck? How can these guys be selling unsecured " investments" with no license, private placement memorandum, etc. Seems like a whole lotta good ideas, poorly executed .

[Bradyhill]

Maybe everyone should try to understand what services come with the vault before turning negative. Everyone seems to be such know-it-alls before knowing the facts. The vault’s primary mission is not a sales tax avoidance initiative. I’ve personally seen the Vault and believe the business strategy behind it is brilliant. Just my opinion from someone who owns and runs a very large business. And yes, I will take full advantage of these services. Do what’s right for you and draw your own conclusions.

Brady

[conor912]

This hobby is so f'd.

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe everyone should try to understand what services come with the vault before turning negative. Everyone seems to be such know-it-alls before knowing the facts. The vault’s primary mission is not a sales tax avoidance initiative. I’ve personally seen the Vault and believe the business strategy behind it is brilliant. Just my opinion from someone who owns and runs a very large business. And yes, I will take full advantage of these services. Do what’s right for you and draw your own conclusions.

Brady

Full name.when giving.an.opion of.person or service.reqiired

[Snapolit1]

Maybe everyone should try to understand what services come with the vault before turning negative. Everyone seems to be such know-it-alls before knowing the facts. The vault’s primary mission is not a sales tax avoidance initiative. I’ve personally seen the Vault and believe the business strategy behind it is brilliant. Just my opinion from someone who owns and runs a very large business. And yes, I will take full advantage of these services. Do what’s right for you and draw your own conclusions.

Brady

Ok, enlighten us. What is the great point of this other than tax avoidance? I received their email too, and that that seemed to be the clear thrust of it. Maybe I need my secret decoder ring on this one.

[Republicaninmass]

13 posts...and what do you get


Another post praising the vault of Brett

[ullmandds]

Maybe everyone should try to understand what services come with the vault before turning negative. Everyone seems to be such know-it-alls before knowing the facts. The vault’s primary mission is not a sales tax avoidance initiative. I’ve personally seen the Vault and believe the business strategy behind it is brilliant. Just my opinion from someone who owns and runs a very large business. And yes, I will take full advantage of these services. Do what’s right for you and draw your own conclusions.

Brady

you've SEEN "the vault?" Is it real and SPECTACULAR???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Full name.when giving.an.opion of.person or service.reqiired

His ID is his full name. He hasn't posted much here I guess but certainly a known collector.

And yes, I could see where a secure storage facility could be attractive to someone with substantial value in cards who didn't care about access to them; or lived relatively close, or whose intent was to resell through PWCC. On the other hand, as Steve points out, PWCC certainly has emphasized the sales tax aspect in its promotion.

[egbeachley]

Ok, enlighten us. What is the great point of this other than tax avoidance? I received their email too, and that that seemed to be the clear thrust of it. Maybe I need my secret decoder ring on this one.

Tax avoidance is OK. Tax evasion is not.

This may be legal the same way that buying items in a tax-free state is fine. It’s just when you bring them back to your home state that the Use tax kicks in.

[Goudey77]

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2018/12/lock-them-up-tigard-company-building-4-million-vault-for-your-high-value-trading-cards.html

[jayshum]

I looked on the PWCC website for more info, and there are fees charged for any cards sent to the vault unless they are from a PWCC auction, so on top of the 0.5% storage fee that was mentioned in the e-mail I received, the following fees also apply. For non-graded cards, there is a $10 minimum fee so for a card under around $140-150, it looks like that fee would offset any sales tax savings.

Archival Fee.
Graded Cards – 1% of market value is charged at intake of assets (minimum fee of $2 per asset and a maximum fee of $100 per asset). Note: completely graded sets, mixed grading company sets or sets registered with PSA, SGC, and/or Beckett use the same ingestion process as single graded cards.

Non-Graded Cards – 1% of market value is charged at intake of assets (minimum fee of $10 per asset and maximum fee of $100 per asset).

[Luke]

.... and can someone with a bottle of Peach Schnapps open "The Vault"?

Can't believe this got no love

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can't believe this got no love

Where's Sloate the great Seinfeld fan?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I looked on the PWCC website for more info, and there are fees charged for any cards sent to the vault unless they are from a PWCC auction, so on top of the 0.5% storage fee that was mentioned in the e-mail I received, the following fees also apply. For non-graded cards, there is a $10 minimum fee so for a card under around $140-150, it looks like that fee would offset any sales tax savings.

Archival Fee.
Graded Cards – 1% of market value is charged at intake of assets (minimum fee of $2 per asset and a maximum fee of $100 per asset). Note: completely graded sets, mixed grading company sets or sets registered with PSA, SGC, and/or Beckett use the same ingestion process as single graded cards.

Non-Graded Cards – 1% of market value is charged at intake of assets (minimum fee of $10 per asset and maximum fee of $100 per asset).

Ingestion just seems like the wrong word. I think they use it multiple times.

[pokerplyr80]

For those who don't know Brady he had one of the best tables at the Chicago national and is well known and respected in the hobby. I completely agree and will be using this service as well. Many of my cards just sit in a bank vault as it is and I have to pay to ship and insure them to pwcc when it's time to sell. And if shipping them to and storing them in Oregon saves on sales tax as well then i will not be surprised if many collectors start using the vault. Perhaps even a few of those criticizing in this thread.

[Baseball Bob]

I totally agree that this sounds like crap that happens before a collapse. Reminds me of the dot.com bubble and the “new economy” spew that was going on at the turn of the century. Look out below!!! Maybe hide in the vault until the crash is over??

[ullmandds]

oy gavault!

[Sean]

For those who don't know Brady he had one of the best tables at the Chicago national and is well known and respected in the hobby.

In fact, he is featured in this week's Sports Collector's Digest.

[calvindog]

On a 200K card sale, the sales tax savings for a NY buyer is about 18K if the card is instead shipped to a vault in Oregon. Same card sitting in a Citibank safe deposit box in NYC, surrounded by alarms and guards, costs the buyer 18K extra. The main thrust of this visionary program is tax avoidance. Period. Again, I’m niot saying it’s illegal as I’m not a CPA but to suggest that the tax savings on pricey cards is not the main lure of this PWCC vault is disingenuous.

[CuriousGeorge]

I had 2 very reputable CPA’s look into the vault and both strongly advised me not to use it. It is being advertised as a way to avoid paying state tax and they were not comfortable with that verbiage. While I suggest anyone considering using them to get your own guidance, I feel much more comfortable not being involved. And that’s only regarding the tax issue, I have not even gotten into other potential land mines that could happen.

[Republicaninmass]

But the guy with one of the best tables at the national thinks its great, sign me up

[Spike]

Sounds a lot like practices from the fine art market bleeding into baseball cards, so PWCC can process ongoing transactions without buyers and sellers ever seeing their "art investments" or needing to remove them from storage. If baseball collecting were more international, we could expect a similar vault on a Cayman Island for further tax savings. Perhaps they offer that kind of big-spender service in a less-publicized way? (While not an art expert myself, Google provides a lot of info on the world of fine art markets.)

[frankrizzo29]

I know that when OH residents file their state income tax return that they have the ability to list all purchases made during that tax year in which they did not pay any sales tax. Any sales tax that should have been paid is than added to their income tax liability and paid at that time with their tax return. I am pretty confident that all other states have the same thing when filing their returns. However, I am not sure how to handle this for states like Florida that have no state income tax. ( I must admit that I am surprised that of all the CPAs who were consulted that no one mentioned this).

With that said, rather than bashing the PWCC Vault for their poor marketing tactics, I am really curious to hear why people should or should not use the PWCC Vault.

[calvindog]

With that said, rather than bashing the PWCC Vault for their poor marketing tactics, I am really curious to hear why people should or should not use the PWCC Vault.

To avoid paying sales tax.

[Rhotchkiss]

My biggest issue with the vault is that it is in Oregon and I am in Maryland. If they put a vault in Delaware (hint hint), another state with no sales tax, I would strongly consider using such an East-Side service.

[TUM301]

New Hampshire, "Live Free Or Die", no sales or income tax.

[ullmandds]

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

Dinosaur.

[conor912]

Dinosaur.

Haha

[KingFisk]

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

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[conor912]

I have a ton of questions about this, but I just realized I don't even care enough to type them all out. To each their own...even if their own is stupid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

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New world. In their (IMO baseless and disingenuous) defense of the altered PSA 4.5 Mantle that they posted on Blowout, they refer to it as an "asset." Good Lord.

[Leon]

I will be devil's advocate, a little bit. There are many who will find the investment aspect of collecting to be insane, stupid, or worse. However, I am also sure there are quite a few who think it's not a bad idea. The one thing I think I got out of college was learning that my view is often not shared by many, or even most, and that's ok. I am more than happy to share my collecting space with anyone who wants to do so in an honest and transparent way. Investor, collector, whatever.... The more the merrier. And if we don't think there are investors coming into our hobby then we are either naive or stupid, one of the two. I like what Brent is doing even if most of it isn't for me personally. Also, after getting to know Brent a little better there is no doubt in my mind that when he makes a mistake, as we all do, he will fix it quickly.

I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you like his defense of the altered 4.5 Mantle? To summarize, soaking and pressing a corner is "conservation" because it moves the card closer to its original state.

[ullmandds]

I will be devil's advocate, a little bit. There are many who will find the investment aspect of collecting to be insane, stupid, or worse. However, I am also sure there are quite a few who think it's not a bad idea. The one thing I think I got out of college was learning that my view is often not shared by many, or even most, and that's ok. I am more than happy to share my collecting space with anyone who wants to do so in an honest and transparent way. Investor, collector, whatever.... The more the merrier. And if we don't think there are investors coming into our hobby then we are either naive or stupid, one of the two. I like what Brent is doing even if most of it isn't for me personally. Also, after getting to know Brent a little better there is no doubt in my mind that when he makes a mistake, as we all do, he will fix it quickly.

And how was that issue of blatant altering of a 36 wwg gehrig sold by pwcc a few years ago “fixed?”

[Peter_Spaeth]

And how was that issue of blatant altering of a 36 wwg gehrig sold by pwcc a few years ago “fixed?”

PSA ultimately zapped the card, I believe. PWCC happily sold it without disclosure prior to that.

[Leon]

Do you like his defense of the altered 4.5 Mantle? To summarize, soaking and pressing a corner is "conservation" because it moves the card closer to its original state.

Of course not. Soaking and pressing isn't something I would condone or approve of. To me that is just too much. I could see soaking gunk off of a card and have done so.

[calvindog]

PSA ultimately zapped the card, I believe. PWCC happily sold it without disclosure prior to that.

You've got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. Big investment returns don't fall off trees.

But send your cards to some vault in the middle of Oregon, sight unseen; after all, you're saving $200 in shipping and insurance when you need to sell that card that you just bought an hour ago. (The 10K in sales tax savings is not important and is NOT the main reason for the vault -- the ease of resale is). And sleep well at night knowing that CPA after CPA makes clear this is not a kosher tax move. Worst comes to worst, audits are fun: you get to meet new people you'd otherwise never cross paths with!

Every visionary like Brent was laughed at before they were revered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course not. Soaking and pressing isn't something I wouold condone or approve of. To me that is just too much. I could see soaking gunk off of a card and have done so.

So your unqualified praise of Brent has at least a footnote, oh but I disagree with him on his position on a 50K+ card he is now auctioning.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By the way, I assume you can ship any card you win anyplace to the vault, not just from PWCC? Or is that not right.

[Dpeck100]

Wheres Dpeck? How can these guys be selling unsecured " investments" with no license, private placement memorandum, etc. Seems like a whole lotta good ideas, poorly executed .

I am generally in favor of what PWCC is doing in the hobby but the only thing so far that has me scratching my head is this.

I am not certain how they can be giving investment advice on cards and treating them like securities and not have some form of oversight.

There were a lot of people trying to do similar with the crypo currency market and the SEC stepped in.

In a thread on CU we discussed this and one thing that stuck out to me was when a person using their advisory service was quoted as saying Brent told me not to bid on that card and wait for another one. To me this is just like a realtor saying don't bid on the house I am selling. When you agree to sell someone's trading cards you are obligated to them and to try and achieve the best selling price. I find this scenario as a major conflict of interest and something I believe needs to be more well thought out.

I will just add I don't know Brady Hill personally but if anyone follows high level collectors at all the guy is a whale.

[Dpeck100]

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

I agree completely. I certainly could understand why some who actively buy and sell might consider it as an option but I like to see and "play" with my cards.

[calvindog]

In a thread on CU we discussed this and one thing that stuck out to me was when a person using their advisory service was quoted as saying Brent told me not to bid on that card and wait for another one.

Maybe he generously steered his client away from a trimmed or otherwise altered card in a PWCC auction? It's theoretically possible I suppose. Wait, probably not.

[Dpeck100]

Maybe he generously steered his client away from a trimmed or otherwise altered card in a PWCC auction? It's theoretically possible I suppose. Wait, probably not.

If I recall it said with better eye appeal for the grade.

We can all agree that not all cards within in a grade are created equally and obviously there can be intense debate over the topic but from an investment standpoint clearly eye appeal is huge.

That said the advice needs to be coming from someone who is not selling the card and talking potential bidders out of bidding on it and potentially hurting the final selling price.

[AustinMike]

In a thread on CU we discussed this and one thing that stuck out to me was when a person using their advisory service was quoted as saying Brent told me not to bid on that card and wait for another one. To me this is just like a realtor saying don't bid on the house I am selling. When you agree to sell someone's trading cards you are obligated to them and to try and achieve the best selling price. I find this scenario as a major conflict of interest and something I believe needs to be more well thought out.


Was the card in question in a PWCC auction? If so, then your scenario plays out. If it was in another auction, then that opens up another can of worms. Having your clients avoid other auctions and steering them towards your auctions. In either case, there is a definite conflict of interest.

[Leon]

So your unqualified praise of Brent has at least a footnote, oh but I disagree with him on his position on a 50K+ card he is now auctioning.

Did I ever say I agree with everything ANYONE says? There is no doubt you and I, Brent and I, and anyone else and I, see differently on many things. I don't agree with messing with cards much at all. The things which are deemed ok by most, which we have discussed ad nauseum, are the ones I don't mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If "investment advice" includes advising people how much to bid on cards in PWCC auctions, that strikes me as conflicted.

[Dpeck100]

Was the card in question in a PWCC auction? If so, then your scenario plays out. If it was in another auction, then that opens up another can of worms. Having your clients avoid other auctions and steering them towards your auctions. In either case, there is a definite conflict of interest.

Yes it was a PWCC auction. Essentially saying how unbiased their advice was.

In real estate you can't represent both sides without full disclosure.

To me this is a huge can of worms because I under no circumstances feel it is right to pay someone to sell your cards and then have them at the same time tell preferred buyers to pass and wait for a better example to come along. If they want to give advice on other sellers cards in this form great. Just not on cards they are selling.

[Dpeck100]

It was in this article


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2018/12/10/how-to-obtain-free-expert-sports-card-investment-collecting-advice-from-70-to-80k/#2b0cba6d22fa


Here is my post


Let me first say I am a big fan of PWCC and really feel they have done a great job in the trading card market. I used to marvel when I would see their listings on EBAY and it took a few years to realize they weren't actually the one's who owned all of the awesome cards they were selling. I have purchased from them many times and feel they are miles ahead of other major EBAY sellers and their great results speak for themselves.

This quote from the article caught my eye and has me pondering whether or not this is a good idea.

In several cases, Huigens steered him away from the cards PWCC was selling: “I prefer you focus on slightly higher grades where the eye appeal is less volatile and the market is more stable,” he wrote him about an early Bowman Mickey Mantle in off-condition.

My first take is that this is a conflict of interest. When you have someone list your card the goal is to achieve the highest selling price. If the person selling it for you is talking buyers out of bidding on your card it can work against the final selling price as less buyers are in the market for it. I feel that this is kind of like a listing agent in real estate talking you out of the house they are selling. Their first priority is to the person whose home or in this case card that they are representing. I do think it is a great concept when dealing with others sellers cards and another value add that PWCC is trying to offer.

Curious what others think about it.

[ullmandds]

It was in this article


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2018/12/10/how-to-obtain-free-expert-sports-card-investment-collecting-advice-from-70-to-80k/#2b0cba6d22fa


Here is my post


Let me first say I am a big fan of PWCC and really feel they have done a great job in the trading card market. I used to marvel when I would see their listings on EBAY and it took a few years to realize they weren't actually the one's who owned all of the awesome cards they were selling. I have purchased from them many times and feel they are miles ahead of other major EBAY sellers and their great results speak for themselves.

This quote from the article caught my eye and has me pondering whether or not this is a good idea.

In several cases, Huigens steered him away from the cards PWCC was selling: “I prefer you focus on slightly higher grades where the eye appeal is less volatile and the market is more stable,” he wrote him about an early Bowman Mickey Mantle in off-condition.

My first take is that this is a conflict of interest. When you have someone list your card the goal is to achieve the highest selling price. If the person selling it for you is talking buyers out of bidding on your card it can work against the final selling price as less buyers are in the market for it. I feel that this is kind of like a listing agent in real estate talking you out of the house they are selling. Their first priority is to the person whose home or in this case card that they are representing. I do think it is a great concept when dealing with others sellers cards and another value add that PWCC is trying to offer.

Curious what others think about it.

Sure...that's a conflict of interest...and an exhibition of preferential treatment likely in the hopes of making more money from that client at a later date...imo.

Similar to the preferential treatment that may occur on the part of the TPG'ers to their best clients/friends...same as what occurs in the government and in big business on a daily basis.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Money corrupts. Lots of money corrupts, if not absolutely, pretty close to it.

[Leon]

What if PWCC said on the front end that they represent both buyers and sellers interests?

I guess I can imagine telling a friend not to bid on a card I am selling as it isn't the best card for them, given their circumstances and desires? If my specific intent is to be honest, transparent and helpful I don't think there is a problem.

It was in this article


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2018/12/10/how-to-obtain-free-expert-sports-card-investment-collecting-advice-from-70-to-80k/#2b0cba6d22fa


Here is my post


Let me first say I am a big fan of PWCC and really feel they have done a great job in the trading card market. I used to marvel when I would see their listings on EBAY and it took a few years to realize they weren't actually the one's who owned all of the awesome cards they were selling. I have purchased from them many times and feel they are miles ahead of other major EBAY sellers and their great results speak for themselves.

This quote from the article caught my eye and has me pondering whether or not this is a good idea.

In several cases, Huigens steered him away from the cards PWCC was selling: “I prefer you focus on slightly higher grades where the eye appeal is less volatile and the market is more stable,” he wrote him about an early Bowman Mickey Mantle in off-condition.

My first take is that this is a conflict of interest. When you have someone list your card the goal is to achieve the highest selling price. If the person selling it for you is talking buyers out of bidding on your card it can work against the final selling price as less buyers are in the market for it. I feel that this is kind of like a listing agent in real estate talking you out of the house they are selling. Their first priority is to the person whose home or in this case card that they are representing. I do think it is a great concept when dealing with others sellers cards and another value add that PWCC is trying to offer.

Curious what others think about it.

[ullmandds]

money corrupts. Lots of money corrupts, if not absolutely, pretty close to it.

yup!

[AustinMike]

I do think it is a great concept when dealing with others sellers cards and another value add that PWCC is trying to offer.

Curious what others think about it.

If they steer you away from another company's auction, is it because they don't highly recommend that particular card or because they don't want you to put your money in other's auctions but want you to only spend in theirs (PWCC's)? If you are in the auction business, you should not be advising anyone in regards to what auction they should or should not bid in. Honest or not, the perception of a conflict of interest rears its ugly head in any recommendation you might make. If you steer them from your auction, as you've pointed out you are not acting in the best interest of your consignor. If you steer them toward your auction, is it because you're trying to help your (PWCC) bottom line?

Also, what if they have more than one client looking for a particular card? Do they advise them both to go after it in a particular auction knowing that the final hammer price might greatly exceed the current value, or do they tell one client to hold off? If they tell one client to hold off, how do they decide which one?

If they have more than one client looking for a card, what if they can get all of them to not bid in other's auctions, but to wait until they (PWCC) have one in their auction? Just imagine what the final price could be. That would be great for their consignor, wouldn't it? Maybe they are looking out for their consignors after all? :rolleyes:

I think the whole concept is terrible.

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1589BERGS_NEW.JPG

..interesting thread , but every once in a while y'all need to look at a pre-war baseball card.

..

[Dpeck100]

Leon if there is full disclosure it is probably fine in some eyes and not in others.

My personal view is I don't think it is a good idea but I have never sent any cards to them to sell so I have no skin in the game.

Offering services like this though will certainly increase the chances of some form of regulation so that should definitely be considered.

[Dpeck100]

If they steer you away from another company's auction, is it because they don't highly recommend that particular card or because they don't want you to put your money in other's auctions but want you to only spend in theirs (PWCC's)? If you are in the auction business, you should not be advising anyone in regards to what auction they should or should not bid in. Honest or not, the perception of a conflict of interest rears its ugly head in any recommendation you might make. If you steer them from your auction, as you've pointed out you are not acting in the best interest of your consignor. If you steer them toward your auction, is it because you're trying to help your (PWCC) bottom line?

Also, what if they have more than one client looking for a particular card? Do they advise them both to go after it in a particular auction knowing that the final hammer price might greatly exceed the current value, or do they tell one client to hold off? If they tell one client to hold off, how do they decide which one?

If they have more than one client looking for a card, what if they can get all of them to not bid in other's auctions, but to wait until they (PWCC) have one in their auction? Just imagine what the final price could be. That would be great for their consignor, wouldn't it? Maybe they are looking out for their consignors after all? :rolleyes:

I think the whole concept is terrible.


I think you raise some excellent points.

The hurdle for conflict of interest is much lower I believe if there card investment advisor's that are helping you build a card "portfolio" are telling you to buy a card in say a Heritage auction or some other marketer rather than their own.

[ullmandds]

Leon if there is full disclosure it is probably fine in some eyes and not in others.

My personal view is I don't think it is a good idea but I have never sent any cards to them to sell so I have no skin in the game.

Offering services like this though will certainly increase the chances of some form of regulation so that should definitely be considered.

Regulation???? In the baseball card world??? We can’t even get it in big business???

[Dpeck100]

Regulation???? In the baseball card world??? We can’t even get it in big business???



I am in the securities business and if you are offering investment advice I would think you would need some form of oversight.

[ullmandds]

I am in the securities business and if you are offering investment advice I would think you would need some form of oversight.

Do we have this type of oversight in any area of collecting whether it is fine art and antiques...comics, cards, coins? Not that im aware of?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

As an auctioneer my fiduciary duty is to my seller, and my seller only. I have to be honest with my buyers, but talking a buyer out of bidding on something I am selling is a breach of my legal responsibility to the consignor.

[Republicaninmass]

Why bother, just keep relisting it and let them tell you "you will be outbid"

[Dpeck100]

Do we have this type of oversight in any area of collecting whether it is fine art and antiques...comics, cards, coins? Not that im aware of?

After I posted my comment I thought of the art world and I am not sure if they do or don't. I will do a google search and see if I can find anything.

[clydepepper]

Vaults are good enough for Women's Gymnastics, but not Ted's head.

I prefer less exposure and more personal care, respectively.




=

[Dpeck100]

Do we have this type of oversight in any area of collecting whether it is fine art and antiques...comics, cards, coins? Not that im aware of?

A card doesn't meet the criteria of a security when using the primary definition.

This is with the definition.

That definition is not meant to encompass everything that may be a “security” though, as the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that the definition of “security” is “quite broad”

It doesn't meet the definition of a commodity either because there is variance in value based on certain specific characteristics to each card.

I can't find anything that suggests art dealers need a license so maybe they are in the clear.

Interesting topic for sure.

[steve B]

I'm fairly certain that the bigger dealers in most mainstream hobbies offer that sort of service. I don't have the right amount of money, but have met a couple major dealers in another hobby. Part of that is helping the clients build a collection or investment portfolio. The other part is having the connections to actually help with that at a high level.

It's one thing to have a customer that can afford and wants a card that might be 100K+ it's a different thing altogether to also know someone who owns one and might be convinced to part with it.

The advice to wait for a higher condition card instead of a lower grade one is basic investment advice. If I could be bothered to find specifics, I could probably find that advice being given here at least once a month. It may seem like a conflict when its an auctioneer, but the bigger auction houses also get higher bids by calling the people who want an item they just got consigned to let them know about it a bit in advance, and to recommend it to them.

[Snapolit1]

Used to be a famous club in NYC called The Vault. Never had the pleasure of visiting. Good place to be hung upside down and have the crap whipped out of you by someone in a leather mask. Not my scene but probably more interesting that Brett’s vault.

[Vintageclout]

Maybe everyone should try to understand what services come with the vault before turning negative. Everyone seems to be such know-it-alls before knowing the facts. The vault’s primary mission is not a sales tax avoidance initiative. I’ve personally seen the Vault and believe the business strategy behind it is brilliant. Just my opinion from someone who owns and runs a very large business. And yes, I will take full advantage of these services. Do what’s right for you and draw your own conclusions.

Brady

+1 - Well said Brady! Very innovative and a great idea with various positive angles.

Joe T.

[barrysloate]

Yes it was a PWCC auction. Essentially saying how unbiased their advice was.

In real estate you can't represent both sides without full disclosure.

To me this is a huge can of worms because I under no circumstances feel it is right to pay someone to sell your cards and then have them at the same time tell preferred buyers to pass and wait for a better example to come along. If they want to give advice on other sellers cards in this form great. Just not on cards they are selling.

Let's say a collector who plans to build a major high grade collection asks an auctioneer to steer him to the very best cards in the sale. If the auctioneer points out what are in his opinion the very best cards, he is doing nothing wrong. If I've consigned a bunch of VG cards to the sale, and someone else consigned well centered MT cards, I don't expect the auctioneer to recommend mine first.

I don't think recommending a group of better cards necessarily hurts other consignors. And if the auctioneer can spot a flaw that the bidder missed, it's okay to tell him to wait for a better example.

[Dpeck100]

Let's say a collector who plans to build a major high grade collection asks an auctioneer to steer him to the very best cards in the sale. If the auctioneer points out what are in his opinion the very best cards, he is doing nothing wrong. If I've consigned a bunch of VG cards to the sale, and someone else consigned well centered MT cards, I don't expect the auctioneer to recommend mine first.

I don't think recommending a group of better cards necessarily hurts other consignors. And if the auctioneer can spot a flaw that the bidder missed, it's okay to tell him to wait for a better example.



If I consigned a card to someone I wouldn't want them talking someone out of buying it.

The person is paying them a fee to try and secure the highest price for the consigned item.

This is how I feel but if others feel differently I understand that too.

[barrysloate]

If I consigned a card to someone I wouldn't want them talking someone out of buying it.

The person is paying them a fee to try and secure the highest price for the consigned item.

This is how I feel but if others feel differently I understand that too.

So if I were to ask the auctioneer to help me secure the best cards, is he obligated to say all the cards in the sale are equal? If you were the bidder asking that question, would you find that answer satisfactory?

I agree, as an auctioneer myself for many years, that I had more of an obligation to consignors than to bidders. Consignors sign contracts, while bidders are on their own. But if someone asked me that question I would feel obligated to give an honest answer.

[Dpeck100]

So if I were to ask the auctioneer to help me secure the best cards, is he obligated to say all the cards in the sale are equal? If you were the bidder asking that question, would you find that answer satisfactory?

I agree, as an auctioneer myself for many years, that I had more of an obligation to consignors than to bidders. Consignors sign contracts, while bidders are on their own. But if someone asked me that question I would feel obligated to give an honest answer.


Honestly I don't know how to answer your question.

I have never gone to anyone for advice on what cards to buy but I suppose if I had I might feel differently and that opens up some grey area. Honesty in my view is the best policy in life so I could see someone feeling obligated to give an honest answer.

In the case of PWCC I can't begin to answer how long they have been giving buyers advice. I have always thought of them as the premier trading card auctioneer on EBAY and not an advisory service too and for all I know Brent might have been giving people advice the entire time.

None of this is of great concern to me but one day if I ever decide to sell some of my higher profile items I certainly would look into using them and I can say I wouldn't be excited if I found out that they talked someone out of bidding on my card because trading cards have very inelastic prices and just a few bidders can mean the world to the auction.

[barrysloate]

Again, as a former auction house owner I can tell you both bidders and consignors have questions, and both expect honest answers.

[A2000]

I'm disappointed there's not been a Seinfeld reference yet..very disappointed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COssGgD1aY

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm disappointed there's not been a Seinfeld reference yet..very disappointed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COssGgD1aY

You should read the thread then. Post 11 and a couple of follow ups.

[A2000]

My faith in Net54 has been restored :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

my faith in net54 has been restored :)

lol

[barrysloate]

There's a Seinfeld episode for every occasion.:)

[BeanTown]

Again, as a former auction house owner I can tell you both bidders and consignors have questions, and both expect honest answers.

I miss your great auctions Barry. I remember when I would call you in extended time and ask you what I should bid on to win. I took your advice everytime and all turned out to be great investments. I never heard of Just So tobacco before you. Collectors are always seeking education on items they collect or want to collect. Turning to an auctioneer isnt always a bad thing even though they may be bias a little bit.

[swarmee]

This is different though than actively discouraging a buyer from purchasing a consignment. The fact that Brent is so blase to mention it openly during an interview for Forbes Magazine is shocking.

[barrysloate]

Thanks JC. My auctions weren't large but I admit I did have interesting and historic material. I always focused on baseball history, and rarely had high grade cards. The hobby has changed a bit since then.

[Sean]

Thanks JC. My auctions weren't large but I admit I did have interesting and historic material. I always focused on baseball history, and rarely had high grade cards. The hobby has changed a bit since then.

I recall that you had a nice Plank in 2004 or 2005. I bid, but didn't come close in the end.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

but the bigger auction houses also get higher bids by calling the people who want an item they just got consigned to let them know about it a bit in advance, and to recommend it to them.

That is doing your duty to the consignor. Telling someone not to bid is not.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So if I were to ask the auctioneer to help me secure the best cards, is he obligated to say all the cards in the sale are equal? If you were the bidder asking that question, would you find that answer satisfactory?

I agree, as an auctioneer myself for many years, that I had more of an obligation to consignors than to bidders. Consignors sign contracts, while bidders are on their own. But if someone asked me that question I would feel obligated to give an honest answer.

There's a difference between being honest about a card's merits, and talking a buyer out of a card.

If a buyer asks me specifics about a card, of course I can be honest about the card's qualities.

[barrysloate]

There's a difference between being honest about a card's merits, and talking a buyer out of a card.

If a buyer asks me specifics about a card, of course I can be honest about the card's qualities.

Of course. You have to be fair to both your consignors and your bidders, who sit on opposite sides of the fence. Consignors want the highest prices possible, and bidders are looking for the best deals, and during the course of an auction you are going to have to interact with both of them.

And yes Sean, I had a couple of Planks over the years and remember them well. I had an SGC 50 that set a price record that held up for many years. Today, it looks like an incredible bargain.

[Republicaninmass]

Quick inner net search says

"*If*the retailer does not*collect sales tax, the purchaser has the obligation to pay use*tax*directly to the state where the property is used as long as the item is taxable. ..:"

Awfully thin line there

[steve B]

I must say that I'm enjoying the bit of discussion between Barry and Scott.
It's always nice to get the views of someone who has or is actually in that business.

Let me rephrase my thought on recommending against bidding.

Lets say there's someone who is spending loads of money every auction, and buys stuff looking at quality and investment. And their question is something like "what do you think of card X? should I go for it?"
Now lets say the card is a 9, but not a great 9 and the auctioneer knows that buyer won't ultimately be happy with it OR, a card that they feel may have peaked and should be available for less in a year or two...


I think that saying either of those things is the only honest answer. Plus, while it may not serve the consigner best, someone who regularly spends a lot may over time generate far more for the auction house.


Or, I could be entirely wrong. I'd love to hear the perspectives of people actually doing business at that sort of level.

[barrysloate]

I think you have to be honest, that's the answer. And I know as an auctioneer I need to be careful.

If I told that hypothetical bidder he might not be happy with the card and he chooses not to bid, the card is still likely to sell for a retail price, and bidder, consignor, and auction house should all be happy (hopefully).

But if I tell the bidder falsely thst he will love the card, and he gets and not only doesn't like it but wants to return it for a refund, I have a bit of a disaster on my hands. Then I might not be able to pay my consignor if the underbidder doesn't want it.

So best thing is to tell the truth. It might cost the consignor one extra bid, but IMO that's the best way to resolve that problem.

[swarmee]

"No comment" is both a lack of an answer and an answer at the same time. Maybe that's the correct response.

[MULLINS5]

What would happen if Oregon suddenly passed sales tax legislation?

[Goudey77]

What would happen if Oregon suddenly passed sales tax legislation?

It’s a lost cause to try and impose a sales tax in Oregon. I believe it’s been defeated by voters like a dozen times through the years. Plus the state benefits a lot from a very high income tax. Both voters and the government are comfortable where they are at.

Instead the city of Portland is toying with the idea of a beer tax in this brewery loving town.

Oregon could be the last man standing in this country when it comes to this subject.

But I never say never.

[pokerplyr80]

Quick inner net search says

"*If*the retailer does not*collect sales tax, the purchaser has the obligation to pay use*tax*directly to the state where the property is used as long as the item is taxable. ..:"

Awfully thin line there

If the asset is shipped to Oregon, stored there, then eventually sold and shipped from there, I fail to see the issue. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the line doesn't seel thin to me at all.

Now if it's shipped to the vault, stored for a month or 2, then shipped to CA or NY I cam foresee an issue arising.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"The asset?" Oh no is Brent-speak contagious?

[vintagetoppsguy]

If the asset is shipped to Oregon, stored there, then eventually sold and shipped from there, I fail to see the issue. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the line doesn't seel thin to me at all.

Now if it's shipped to the vault, stored for a month or 2, then shipped to CA or NY I cam foresee an issue arising.

Right! Not sure why people aren't getting this. It's not a service I'd use, but its perfectly legal. I would assume that if the buyer wanted to take possession of it later, then taxes would be due at that time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right! Not sure why people aren't getting this. It's not a service I'd use, but its perfectly legal. I would assume that if the buyer wanted to take possession of it later, then taxes would be due at that time.

Taxes being due and taxes being paid are two different things particularly where the state doesn't know what you bought, I would assume. Whereas if it's collected at the time of sale, there's no payment issue.

[pokerplyr80]

"The asset?" Oh no is Brent-speak contagious?

Just keeping with the spirit of the thread. I am curious if any tax professionals or CPAs know how if there is an amount of time something shipped to and kept in Oregon needs to stay there so that it wouldn't be legally taxable when transported out of the state.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just keeping with the spirit of the thread. I am curious if any tax professionals or CPAs know how if there is an amount of time something shipped to and kept in Oregon needs to stay there so that it wouldn't be legally taxable when transported out of the state.

It might depend on the use tax laws and regulations of each state, although I'm not sure a temporal gap really matters if the owner continuously retained ownership even if the "asset" was physically elsewhere.

[pokerplyr80]

It might depend on the use tax laws and regulations of each state, although I'm not sure a temporal gap really matters if the owner continuously retained ownership even if the "asset" was physically elsewhere.

If I buy a car in Oregon, register it there, and leave it there for 6 months I can then drive it to CA legally and not pay sales tax. Not sure about cards though.

[AGuinness]

If I buy a car in Oregon, register it there, and leave it there for 6 months I can then drive it to CA legally and not pay sales tax. Not sure about cards though.


That might work for some nice Trucks (Virgil Trucks, that is)...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I buy a car in Oregon, register it there, and leave it there for 6 months I can then drive it to CA legally and not pay sales tax. Not sure about cards though.

Are you sure you wouldn't then owe use tax to CA?

[frankbmd]

382 years ago I invested in tulips, but lost my shirt when they couldn’t be stored and then restored. Everyone knew they were altered.;)

My question then is:

Will the PWCC Vault be able to store my tulip bulbs as well as my other assets?

According to the tenets and definitions, I would think so.

What goes around comes around, eh?

[Peter_Spaeth]

382 years ago I invested in tulips, but lost my shirt when they couldn’t be stored and then restored. Everyone knew they were altered.;)

My question then is:

Will the PWCC Vault be able to store my tulip bulbs as well as my other assets?

According to the tenets and definitions, I would think so.

What goes around comes around, eh?

Whatever you're drinking this early, I would like some. :D

[Fuddjcal]

Right -- you never have to see or touch the stupid card. It's just an asset on a balance sheet.

A trimmed asset that never leaves the vault, how stupid can people be? Very stupid apparently.

[Fuddjcal]

I think you have to be honest, that's the answer. And I know as an auctioneer I need to be careful.

If I told that hypothetical bidder he might not be happy with the card and he chooses not to bid, the card is still likely to sell for a retail price, and bidder, consignor, and auction house should all be happy (hopefully).

But if I tell the bidder falsely thst he will love the card, and he gets and not only doesn't like it but wants to return it for a refund, I have a bit of a disaster on my hands. Then I might not be able to pay my consignor if the underbidder doesn't want it.

So best thing is to tell the truth. It might cost the consignor one extra bid, but IMO that's the best way to resolve that problem.

Imagine That Barry... Just Tell the truth, LOL. You do it but that's one thing PWCC has a hard time with because he would incriminate himself, IMHO

[pokerplyr80]

Are you sure you wouldn't then owe use tax to CA?

Not from personal experience but people with addresses in both states do this all the time. You can even buy a car in ca and transport it out of state to avoid the sales tax. But if they catch you driving it in CA during the next 6 months you can be charged back for the tax.

[chalupacollects]

Not from personal experience but people with addresses in both states do this all the time. You can even buy a car in ca and transport it out of state to avoid the sales tax. But if they catch you driving it in CA during the next 6 months you can be charged back for the tax.

Might want to ask Derek Jeter about the long term effect when the state of NY came after him for income taxes when he was saying he lived in Florida... didn't go so well for him...