T210 Old Mill Cigarettes Red Border Oddities

[Vintagecatcher]

Over the years, I have become fascinated by the T210 set, and the oddities with regards to their red and "not so red" borders.

Most collectors are aware of the "orange" border variation, which is seen only in some of the Series 3 cards. I have also seen "yellow" border T210s as well.

This week I picked up a T210-2 Irvine which exhibits an odd red border color, which is much lighter than the normal "fire engine" red color found on most T210s.

Lets see your oddities and your theories on how these oddities may have been created.

Patrick

[Vintagecatcher]

Let's see some orange and yellow border T210s!

Patrick

[Leon]

An OB and a guy sitting down.

http://luckeycards.com/pt210x2.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Here are some odd balls...

[Leon]

Nice Thebo! It looks sort of familiar.

Here are some odd balls...

[Jason]

Amazing cards guys! I think the Irvine is a interesting one. The color variations on this set are all over the place and would say your has a def. salmon border to it. I have seen other Series 2 cards in the same tone.

As to the oddities, I am really fond of them. I havent looked at this card in awhile but pulling up the scan had me digging in my Series 6 box! Its one of my favorite cards all together and a rarity for ALL !!! prewar sets imo. Caption jump with alot of other cool things going on as well.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=212588

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks to all for the responses!

Jason...Your Hicks freak tells us a lot.

Clearly the red/colored borders were added to an existing sheet of player photographs.

Patrick

[steve B]

Here's one that only has gloss on part of the card.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=6670



The black was probably after the red, black is typically printed last except for stuff like glosscoat.

[Vintagecatcher]

That last card is a great example which shows the black printing phase was done after the "border framing" as it clearly shows the black on the sox is over the bottom red border.

So it seems the production sequence would progress as follows:

The black and white photo images were printed on a sheet. A bar with the player's name and team was added below each image. That bar can be clearly seen in Jason's Hick freak T210. The individual player images were then framed by the border, which was normally red with the exception of the Series 3 cards that were printed in orange. The bottom of the border frame normally covered the player's name and team name.

Black "highlights" were then printed to give some cards further contrast.

Then lastly a gloss coat was added.

Here is a scan of my George Cowan T210 which is a good example of a T210 that had a black highlight step in the printing process. Not all T210s had this step.

Patrick

[steve B]

That's entirely too complex a process for a print shop to make money on the job, or for that matter even get the job if they quote it based on that.

It's 5 passes through the press, which means 5 plates, 5x the handling, drying time etc.
Instead of 3, red pass, black pass, gloss. (I'm not certain all 210s got gloss. )

doing a job at a roughly 40% higher cost just isn't a path to profit.


The name looks like a bar, because the black is printed high in relation to the red frame. If it was done as a separate pass, there would be differences in the location of the name.


It is possible that they might have used a semi-transparent red, and occasionally printed black first. That's not standard practice, but I have seen it on at least one modern card. (81 Fleer Star Stickers that are light blue instead of dark blue have the black under other colors. ) I'd have to have a bigger sample than the few T210s I have, but I see enough that have names that appear less clear and strongly black than usual, which is what a black first printing would look like. (I actually have to check mine, but I don't recall any like that. )

That last card is a great example which shows the black printing phase was done after the "border framing" as it clearly shows the black on the sox is over the bottom red border.

So it seems the production sequence would progress as follows:

The black and white photo images were printed on a sheet. A bar with the player's name and team was added below each image. That bar can be clearly seen in Jason's Hick freak T210. The individual player images were then framed by the border, which was normally red with the exception of the Series 3 cards that were printed in orange. The bottom of the border frame normally covered the player's name and team name.

Black "highlights" were then printed to give some cards further contrast.

Then lastly a gloss coat was added.

Here is a scan of my George Cowan T210 which is a good example of a T210 that had a black highlight step in the printing process. Not all T210s had this step.

Patrick

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks again for you input Steve..

Looking at Jason's Hicks T210, where the border is misaligned, one can see a clear line where the name and team bar is laid over the bottom of the player image.


Patrick

[steve B]

Thanks again for you input Steve..

Looking at Jason's Hicks T210, where the border is misaligned, one can see a clear line where the name and team bar is laid over the bottom of the player image.


Patrick

We may just be saying the same thing in different ways.

On the original art used to produce the halftone the plates (Or in 1910, more likely a stone) yes, that was done. The picture was usually pasted to a board, then the name/team caption was pasted under it, not usually overlapping, as that would show up on the halftone and need to be fixed (Or not on some cards from other series) but close enough for our purposes.

The black plate would then have the pictures with the name and team captions under them, all on one plate.

Other things intended to print in black would have been hand painted onto the original photo, but it would still all be on the same plate that printed all the black.

[shammus]

Here's a few favorites from my collection. The OHalloran is one of my absolute favorite cards. Notice the irregular and oversized borders with white on the outside...it was cut off of something...would love to know what :)

The Bergen is a salmon colored Series 8 card. I think the Series 8s were prone to this slight border variation.

352881

352882

352883

[Tim Kindler]

Wow! I love this thread, so neat to see the process of how T210s were made!!! Great examples, and very educational......Thanks guys!!!

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks again for all the responses!

T210s are just such a cool set.

I only wish more of them would come up for auction more frequently!

P.S. Jason...your Hick's freak T210 isn't really a "caption jump," but a "border bounce."

The alignment of the border framing is what is off, the caption is in it's regular or normal location.

Patrick

[seablaster]

I'm kinda late to the party, but what else is new?

Horizontal reverse misprint:

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/seablaster/t210-old-mill/67411/johnson

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/seablaster/t210-old-mill/67412/johnson

Proof that cards were oriented vertically and horizontally on at least one sheet:

[Vintagecatcher]

Seablaster,

You were just saving the best for last!

I'm guessing printer scrap?

Thanks for sharing!



Patrick

[seablaster]

I'd have to assume so Patrick. The red borders and the reverses are lined up correctly. This would also explain why there are miscuts that have a pure white portion of the card visible above the red border. What I find somewhat odd, is given the significant number of T210s, I've only remember seeing a handful where the white border is visible above or below the red border.

How many more catchers do you need for completion?

[Vintagecatcher]

Seablaster,

I'm not sure how many more catchers I need in the set. Currently have 18 different catchers in the set. Most of the cards show the catchers catching, but I also have one batting, and a portrait card.

I started by collecting just cards that had catchers wearing chest protectors in the T210.

It took awhile, but I believe, I have all 8 cards that show catchers wearing their chest protectors.

By then I had caught the T210 bug, and I decided to pickup at least one catcher card from each series. Still need an example from Series 4.



Patrick

[Leon]

Those are fantastic, thanks for sharing.
[QUOTE=seablaster;1879063]I'm kinda late to the party, but what else is new?

Horizontal reverse misprint:


Proof that cards were oriented vertically and horizontally on at least one sheet:

[Vintagecatcher]

Since the Covid-19 virus arrived, new T210s on eBay have all but dried up except for the "museum" ones!

Here is my first Orange Border T210 that I picked up in May.

I haven't heard much from my fellow T210 collectors recently.

Have you also found it difficult to add any new T210s to your collections?


Patrick

[bnorth]

Since the Covid-19 virus arrived, new T210s on eBay have all but dried up except for the "museum" ones!

Here is my first Orange Border T210 that I picked up in May.

I haven't heard much from my fellow T210 collectors recently.

Have you also found it difficult to add any new T210s to your collections?


Patrick

I haven't found anything new in a while either. I agree on eBay prices being way to high to buy.

[sb1]

Old thread I know, but thought the content would make the revival appopriate. A Series 3 Waco card of Munsell in blazing Yellow. Part of the T210 set that I will be breaking up in my Sept. Auction.

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks for sharing Scott....that's an incredible T210!

Looking forward to your auction!

Patrick

[mrreality68]

Love this series

Someday the Jackson will be in my grasp

[bnorth]

Love this series

Someday the Jackson will be in my grasp

They are not that bad. I have 3 of them, just none of my T210 Jacksons are Shoeless.:D

I will be watching the auction. I still need 5 or 6 more for my collection.

[mrreality68]

They are not that bad. I have 3 of them, just none of my T210 Jacksons are Shoeless.:D

I will be watching the auction. I still need 5 or 6 more for my collection.

Very very funny Ben

But good luck on your hunt

[Brian]

I only have two, but I love these cards.

[G1911]

I have a few type cards but don't collect this set as the Joe Jackson makes it unfeasible to finish with fiscal responsibility. This is not mine (don't remember if the image came from here, somewhere else or an auction) but this is one of the cooler T card oddities I've ever seen, with some clues about the printing.

[G1911]

And, found this in the my research archive folder. Forgot about it, also showing the horizontally printed back. Not my card either.