PWCC listing of 1952 Mantle PSA 4.5 appears to be pressed

[swarmee]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-4-5-VGEX-PWCC-E/352652483287?hash=item521bb9dad7:g:wysAAOSw2x9cx3k Q&frcectupt=true

Blowout thread:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

Some extra edge wear (especially on the back) that is not visible now that it's slabbed.

[Dpeck100]

I have heard someone say to me they could press out the corners on a card.

How is this done?

[Peter_Spaeth]

So the card was pressed, slabbed by PSA and sold at Heritage, then slabbed again and submitted to PWCC? Why the second time? Crack-out seeking a higher grade maybe? That part I didn't follow. If that's right though, they missed it twice?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Why would someone re-submit this card after the HA offering? After resubmitting, the card ended up with the same grade but with a different serial #.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-psa-vg-ex-45/a/50007-80632.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515


Maybe it is my eyesight, but the bottom front right corner (from the back) appears different in the HA image (left) than it does in the PWCC image (right).

[Peter_Spaeth]

But some of the distinctive marks in the paper otherwise look remarkably similar. As I said, the second cert. is the part of the Blowout post I don't understand. Maybe someone cracked it out and pressed that corner?

[bnorth]

Why would someone re-submit this card after the HA offering? After resubmitting, the card ended up with the same grade but with a different serial #.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-psa-vg-ex-45/a/50007-80632.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515


Maybe it is my eyesight, but the bottom front right corner (from the back) appears different in the HA image (left) than it does in the PWCC image (right).

They look like exactly the same card to me. To me the picture on the right shows the same card after a little more work was done.

[savedfrommyspokes]

They look like exactly the same card to me. To me the picture on the right shows the same card after a little more work was done.

Ben, there is not a dispute that both of these images are of the same card (albeit in different holders), the question was really how much, if any, work was done on this corner(or others).....apparently not enough work to move the card up to a higher grade in the grader's mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ben, there is not a dispute that both of these images are of the same card (albeit in different holders), the question was really how much, if any, work was done on this corner(or others).....apparently not enough work to move the card up to a higher grade in the grader's mind.

But I thought the work on the upper right was BEFORE the first slabbing?????

[savedfrommyspokes]

But I thought the work on the upper right was BEFORE the first slabbing?????

I saw the image on BO of the raw version....yes, before this card's appearance at HA, the corners looked much different in their raw form. At least to me, there appears to be major differences between the raw and HA appearances and then more subtle changes between HA and PWCC appearances.

Could the original pressing job have come undone and was repressed after HA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I saw the image on BO of the raw version....yes, before this card's appearance at HA, the corners looked much different in their raw form. At least to me, there appears to be major differences between the raw and HA appearances and then more subtle changes between HA and PWCC appearances.

Could the original pressing job have come undone and was repressed after HA?

I am just speculating that one set of work was performed pre-Heritage and another (on a different corner) was performed pre-PWCC. If that's right, PSA missed this twice. Lovely. But the problem with that theory is if there was a second card doctor, he surely would have recognized the initial work and not taken a chance on cracking the card out? Anyhow, it's a shame we even have to think about this stuff. Now back to your regularly scheduled love-in for PSA and PWCC.

[savedfrommyspokes]

I am just speculating that one set of work was performed pre-Heritage and another (on a different corner) was performed pre-PWCC. If that's right, PSA missed this twice. Lovely. But the problem with that theory is if there was a second card doctor, he surely would have recognized the initial work and not taken a chance on cracking the card out?

That statement about the work appears to be accurate. The pre-HA work was likely done by someone to get the card from what could have been a 3.5 to 4 grade to a 4.5. Card is sold via HA, my guess to a new owner.

The new post-HA owner feels that with this card's centering and overall appeal, that with a little more work, he could pick up another point or at least half a point to get that "5". The post-HA owner has the work done and resubmits.....but, to the post-HA owner's dismay, even with the new work the card receives the same grade. The card doc may/may not have recognized that there was previous work (due to lack of quality, the case itself), but either way felt the card could still be improved to a 5 or better.


For those who rely on the registry, the serial number for the HA flip is still an active serial number in the system, thus adding another copy to the population. Not to go OT, but how many other copies of this card have multiple s/ns?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Probably quite a few.

It will be interesting to see what happens to this auction, whether PSA or PWCC will do anything or just do the ostrich thing.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

I guess I don’t see the point. It looks like it went from a 4.5 to a 4.5 to a 4.5. If you go through the work to improve the card shouldn’t the card improve?

[savedfrommyspokes]

The front and back for the front, right corner appear to have been improved a bit from the raw image. Based on the damage to that corner alone, that card w/o the repair was looking at a range of 3 to 4 (at best). I agree, I did not see the point of the second improvement as it made no difference.

[MattyC]

One way to account for two certs is due to what is known as a Presidential Review, wherein the card is cracked and regraded with the stipulation it cannot go any lower. Or just as likely it was a crack and resub seeking a higher grade— after the person cracking had closely examined the card to feel certain it could not go any lower. Then there is the notion of someone thinking additional work could take it higher.

Looks like the corners were worked/laid down, pressing being one way to accomplish that. Depending on the degree of corner lift, sometimes it’s as simple as the grade school method of putting a card in a thick book and sitting on it LOL. Worked for me with a Wade Boggs RC in 1986!

[Dpeck100]

One way to account for two certs is due to what is known as a Presidential Review, wherein the card is cracked and regraded with the stipulation it cannot go any lower. Or just as likely it was a crack and resub seeking a higher grade— after the person cracking had closely examined the card to feel certain it could not go any lower. Then there is the notion of someone thinking additional work could take it higher.

Looks like the corners were worked/laid down, pressing being one way to accomplish that. Depending on the degree of corner lift, sometimes it’s as simple as the grade school method of putting a card in a thick book and sitting on it LOL. Worked for me with a Wade Boggs RC in 1986!



Is putting a card under heavy books really considered altering a card?

I had a horrible situation where a BGS 9 1982 Wrestling All Stars Andre The Giant was lifting in the slab in the mylar sleeve and I had to crack it out to rescue it.

One of the corners started kind of bowing upwards with no actual damage and I put that card under a bunch of heavy books for a week or so to try and flatten it back out and it now resides in a PSA 8 holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is putting a card under heavy books really considered altering a card?

I had a horrible situation where a BGS 9 1982 Wrestling All Stars Andre The Giant was lifting in the slab in the mylar sleeve and I had to crack it out to rescue it.

One of the corners started kind of bowing upwards with no actual damage and I put that card under a bunch of heavy books for a week or so to try and flatten it back out and it now resides in a PSA 8 holder.

Not to me. But soaking it and spooning it is.

[MattyC]

Hi DP,

That’s a question to which each collector will have their own answer. I certainly wouldn’t have you drawn and quartered for it ;) Trust all is good.

MC

[Dpeck100]

Hi DP,

That’s a question to which each collector will have their own answer. I certainly wouldn’t have you drawn and quartered for it ;) Trust all is good.

MC


All right cool.

Hope you are well Matt.

[Fuddjcal]

Is the DOCTOR IN????

I have some pliers, a spoon and some water, a bowl and an Exacto Knife!!! I need to learn how to upgrade cards like that!

[KCRfan1]

The card is in really nice condition, now. At this point, wouldn't it be worth consideration to restore the edge and corners to NM - MT condition and resubmit again? PSA keeps passing the card, why not go all in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Auction going strong at 40K. It isn't looking to me like either PWCC is going to take it down or PSA is going to intervene?

[irv]

I am just speculating that one set of work was performed pre-Heritage and another (on a different corner) was performed pre-PWCC. If that's right, PSA missed this twice. Lovely. But the problem with that theory is if there was a second card doctor, he surely would have recognized the initial work and not taken a chance on cracking the card out? Anyhow, it's a shame we even have to think about this stuff. Now back to your regularly scheduled love-in for PSA and PWCC.

LOL. :D

Auction going strong at 40K. It isn't looking to me like either PWCC is going to take it down or PSA is going to intervene?

Highly doubtful as, in my opinion, things have gotten worse rather than better with regards to shenanigans like this. :(

[pokerplyr80]

Auction going strong at 40K. It isn't looking to me like either PWCC is going to take it down or PSA is going to intervene?

I wouldn't think someone pressing down a corner would be grounds to pull an auction or a PSA grade and cert number. I would be fine with this "alteration" if I were bidding on the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wouldn't think someone pressing down a corner would be grounds to pull an auction or a PSA grade and cert number. I would be fine with this "alteration" if I were bidding on the card.

It's not fine according to PSA's own standards.

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

Look at the before and after photos. The card has been "tampered" with there is zero question assuming it's the same card.

[pokerplyr80]

It's not fine according to PSA's own standards.

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

Look at the before and after photos. The card has been "tampered" with there is zero question assuming it's the same card.

Is pressing down a corner that was a little dinged tampering? I don't know the answer but this doesn't strike me as something that would qualify.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is pressing down a corner that was a little dinged tampering? I don't know the answer but this doesn't strike me as something that would qualify.

Did you see the before and after photos? And yes, if it's dinged, it qualifies.

[swarmee]

PWCC responded at the end of Page 5 in that thread claiming that this card shows conservation, not alteration. Bold move, Cotton.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC responded at the end of Page 5 in that thread claiming that this card shows conservation, not alteration. Bold move, Cotton.

That's disgraceful, in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ah here you go, Jesse. I was looking for this before.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

N-5 Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.

[Lorewalker]

Ah here you go, Jesse. I was looking for this before.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

N-5 Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.

Apparently this card did not bear evidence of having been restored or altered and the question is why? Was the work that good and therefore not detectable, has PSA lost their ability to assess cards or does PSA look the other way for some who submit cards?

Seems PWCC has nobody they have to answer to in the hobby or beyond whereby they can blatantly spin what most in the hobby deem is an alteration into it being justifiable conservation. If that is the case then they should at a minimum, amend the description to disclose the "conservation", and notify all active bidders of the amendment and if they knew in advance of listing that the card had had work it should have been disclosed in the original listing.

I am sure the neither PSA nor PWCC are happy that photo of the raw card exists. Quite sure that PSA would not openly support PWCC's stance on conservation but clearly the evidence is that they either cannot detect this type of work or they might deem it acceptable behind closed doors.

[pokerplyr80]

Pressing down a corner that's sticking up a little, and pressing out a wrinkle are to very different things in my opinion. I don't own this card and am not bidding on it, but if I were I would have no problem with it unless it turns out it was trimmed after pressing down the corner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A question raised on Blowout is, if the card was consigned to Heritage raw (as the guy who had seen the raw card thinks or knows), and it appeared in Heritage in a PSA 4.5 with the corner pressed, where was the work done?

[savedfrommyspokes]

A question raised on Blowout is, if the card was consigned to Heritage raw (as the guy who had seen the raw card thinks or knows), and it appeared in Heritage in a PSA 4.5 with the corner pressed, where was the work done?

The OP in the BO thread maybe better qualified to answer your question. He mentioned "thinking" the family sent this card off to HA.


Based on what the OP mentions, it seems most likely that if this family did actually consign this card and the other 52 Topps cards directly to HA, the cards would indeed have been raw. If the family was offering this card for sale raw, it is unlikely they had it graded themselves before consigning....they probably would have already had it graded themselves if they were aware of the best way to sell a card of this nature (graded not raw). Since the family did not seem too keen on the interworking's of the high end card market, it seems unlikely they would be responsible for any restoration either much less the grading of the card.

In another post in the BO thread, the cards with serial #s on either side of this original Mantle submission were other 52 Mantles that were sold via HA and a 52 Mays PSA 8. Based on the serial numbers close to this cards, it appears that this Mantle was submitted with other cards sold by HA and not by the family that owned the card.


However, the family could have sold everything raw to someone else who mentioned to the family that their plan was to consign everything to HA.

Unless the OP can provide more details, we will likely never know the early chain of ownership of this card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The OP in the BO thread maybe better qualified to answer your question. He mentioned "thinking" the family sent this card off to HA.


Based on what the OP mentions, it seems most likely that if this family did actually consign this card and the other 52 Topps cards directly to HA, the cards would indeed have been raw. If the family was offering this card for sale raw, it is unlikely they had it graded themselves before consigning....they probably would have already had it graded themselves if they were aware of the best way to sell a card of this nature (graded not raw). Since the family did not seem too keen on the interworking's of the high end card market, it seems unlikely they would be responsible for any restoration either much less the grading of the card.

In another post in the BO thread, the cards with serial #s on either side of this original Mantle submission were other 52 Mantles that were sold via HA and a 52 Mays PSA 8. Based on the serial numbers close to this cards, it appears that this Mantle was submitted with other cards sold by HA and not by the family that owned the card.


However, the family could have sold everything raw to someone else who mentioned to the family that their plan was to consign everything to HA.

Unless the OP can provide more details, we will likely never know the early chain of ownership of this card.

Yeah, not proof beyond a doubt, but more than enough to raise an eyebrow.

[leaflover]

Wouldn't the old screw-down holders account for some of the pressed down looking corners?

[swarmee]

Yes, and those routinely get the Altered Stock designation from PSA that would leave them as returned ungraded or Authentic Altered slabbed.

[savedfrommyspokes]

The second cert #42775199 for this Mantle has several cards close to it that have cert #s that are not in the database....assuming that the cards close to this 52 Mantle were submitted together, quite a submission for someone. One can only wonder why so many cert #s are missing from the database surrounding the cert #s of multiple other high-end cards, including one that now has some documented "restorations".

42775199
Year 1951
Brand BOWMAN
Card Number 7
Player GIL HODGES
Grade MINT 9
3/13/2019 $2,740.00 eBay 352608451966

42775196
Year 1951
Brand BOWMAN
Card Number 305
Player WILLIE MAYS
Grade VG-EX 4
3/13/2019 $3,000.00 eBay 352608453494

Certification Number 42775195
Year 1951
Brand BOWMAN
Card Number 253
Player MICKEY MANTLE
Grade EX 5
4/9/2019 $20,177.77 eBay 352630838839

Certification Number 42775193
Year 1949
Brand BOWMAN
Card Number 224
Player SATCHELL PAIGE
Grade EX-MT 6
4/9/2019 $2,425.00 eBay 352630834050

Certification Number 42775192
Year 1948
Brand LEAF
Card Number 34
Player SAMMY BAUGH
Grade NM 7
3/24/2019 $4,605.55 eBay 401729596471

Cert #s ending in 194, 197, 198, 200, 202, 204-209 do not show up in the database.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Not sure if this is the same Mays card from the list above or not, but they look close. If they are indeed the same, the stains on the back are gone on the newly encased card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was the first Mays sold through Heritage?

[swarmee]

Rough cut top and print lines line up. Look like the same card to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rough cut top and print lines line up. Look like the same card to me.

Agreed. And identical centering front and back.

[swarmee]

Well, since the Mays has been sold already, I reported it to PSA using their Auction Prices Realized tool.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Was the first Mays sold through Heritage?

The #20734287 sold twice previously:

6/11/2018 $2,370.67 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352369901319
10/31/2017 $2,413.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142546254318

I had a tough time telling, but the factory print lines look slightly different from the old holder to the new holder.

[swarmee]

PSA just stepped in it again. They just emailed out a promotional email for PWCC's May sale with this 1952 Mantle front and center, lauded for it's amazing eye appeal. Sent it back to PSA President Steve Sloan to make sure he was aware of the egg on the company's face due to this card.

[swarmee]

Here are the other cards from this submission:
42775162 T206 Polar Bear Tris Speaker PSA 5 PWCC 401719781687 3/12/2019
42775163 T206 Sweet Caproal 150/30 Cy Young Cle. Bare Hands Show PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 401719782292 3/12/2019
42775164 T206 Piedmont 150 Cy Young Cleveland Portrait PSA 2
42775165 T206 Soverign 150 Ty Cobb Bat On Shoulder PSA 5
42775166 Missing
42775167 T206 Soverign 350 Christy Mathewson Portrait PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 401739871290 4/9/2019
42775168 Missing
42775169 T206 Piedmont 350 Christy Mathewson White Cap PSA 4.5
42775170 T206 Sweet Caporal 350/30 Cy Young Cleve Glove Shows PSA 4.5 PWCC-PQ 352607768563 3/12/2019
42775171 Missing
42775172 1921 E121 American Caramel "Babe" Ruth PSA 4 Series 80
42775173 Missing
42775174 1926 W512 #6 Babe Ruth PSA 4 PWCC 352607783744 3/12/2019
42775175 1932 US Caramel #14 Ty Cobb PSA 4
42775176 Missing
42775177 Missing
42775178 Missing
42775179 1935 National Chicle #27 Bull Tosi PSA 8 PWCC 352617679642 3/24/2019
42775180 Missing
42775181 1938 Goudey #258 Bobby Doerr PSA 5 PWCC 401719801102 3/12/2019
42775182 Missing
42775183 1948 Bowman #36 Stan Musial PSA 8 PWCC-HE 352607793781 3/12/2019
42775184 Missing
42775185 1948 Leaf #3 Babe Ruth PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 143194058211 4/9/2019
42775186 1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 352607795622 3/12/2019
42775187 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 6 PWCC 401734486168 3/31/2019
42775188 1948 Leaf #138 Larry Doby PSA 4 PWCC-HE 401739891749 4/9/2019
42775189 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401739891345 4/9/2019
42775190 1948 Leaf #32 Warren Spahn PSA 4 PWCC-HE 143194058409 4/9/2019
42775191 1948 Leaf #1 Jack Dempsey PSA 5
42775192 1948 Leaf #34 Sammy Baugh Maroon Jersey PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401729596471 3/24/2019
42775193 1949 Bowman #224 Satchel Paige PSA 6 PWCC 352630834050 4/9/2019
42775194 Missing
42775195 1951 Bowman #253 Mickey Mantle PSA 5 PWCC-HE 352630838839 4/9/2019
42775196 1951 Bowman #305 Willie Mays PSA 4 PWCC 352608453494 3/13/2019
42775197 Missing
42775198 Missing
42775199 1951 Bowman #7 Gil Hodges PSA 9 PWCC-HE 352608451966 3/13/2019
42775200 Missing
42775201 1952 Topps #311 Mickey Mantle PSA 4.5 PWCC-E 352652483287 CURRENTLY LISTED
42775202 Missing
42775203 1953 Bowman #32 Stan Musial PSA 6
04-09 were not graded : returned ungraded for alterations or min grade?
10 1955 Roberto Clemente RC PSA 4
11 1955 Sandy Koufax RC PSA 7
12 1955 Parkhurst Jacques Plante PSA 7
13 *no cert*
14 1956 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8.5
15 *no cert*
16 1956 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7
17 1957 Topps Johnny Unitas RC PSA 7.5
18 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax PSA 7.5
19 *no cert*
20 1958 Topps Bobby Hull PSA 5
21 1958 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7
22 1958 Topps Orlando Cepeda RC PSA 9
23 *no cert*
24 1961 Fleer Wilt Chamberlain PSA 7
25 *no cert*
26 1963 Fleer Checklist PSA 8.5
27 *no cert*
28 *no cert*
29 *no cert*
30 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 9
31 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 8.5
32 1966 Philadelphia Jim Brown PSA 9
33 1967 Topps Tom Seaver RC PSA 8
34 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan RC PSA 8
35 1969 Topps Reggie Jackson RC PSA 8.5
36 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle White Letter PSA 7
37 1975 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8
38 1979 Topps Wayne Gretzky PSA 8
39 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky PSA 8
40 1985 OPC Mario Lemieux PSA 9
41 1921 Exhibits Babe Ruth PSA 5

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA just stepped in it again. They just emailed out a promotional email for PWCC's May sale with this 1952 Mantle front and center, lauded for it's amazing eye appeal. Sent it back to PSA President Steve Sloan to make sure he was aware of the egg on the company's face due to this card.

You can't make this stuff up, can you? But PSA must know about the issue already, no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here are the other cards from this submission:
42775162 T206 Polar Bear Tris Speaker PSA 5 PWCC 401719781687 3/12/2019
42775163 T206 Sweet Caproal 150/30 Cy Young Cle. Bare Hands Show PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 401719782292 3/12/2019
42775164 T206 Piedmont 150 Cy Young Cleveland Portrait PSA 2
42775165 T206 Soverign 150 Ty Cobb Bat On Shoulder PSA 5
42775166 Missing
42775167 T206 Soverign 350 Christy Mathewson Portrait PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 401739871290 4/9/2019
42775168 Missing
42775169 T206 Piedmont 350 Christy Mathewson White Cap PSA 4.5
42775170 T206 Sweet Caporal 350/30 Cy Young Cleve Glove Shows PSA 4.5 PWCC-PQ 352607768563 3/12/2019
42775171 Missing
42775172 1921 E121 American Caramel "Babe" Ruth PSA 4 Series 80
42775173 Missing
42775174 1926 W512 #6 Babe Ruth PSA 4 PWCC 352607783744 3/12/2019
42775175 1932 US Caramel #14 Ty Cobb PSA 4
42775176 Missing
42775177 Missing
42775178 Missing
42775179 1935 National Chicle #27 Bull Tosi PSA 8 PWCC 352617679642 3/24/2019
42775180 Missing
42775181 1938 Goudey #258 Bobby Doerr PSA 5 PWCC 401719801102 3/12/2019
42775182 Missing
42775183 1948 Bowman #36 Stan Musial PSA 8 PWCC-HE 352607793781 3/12/2019
42775184 Missing
42775185 1948 Leaf #3 Babe Ruth PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 143194058211 4/9/2019
42775186 1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 352607795622 3/12/2019
42775187 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 6 PWCC 401734486168 3/31/2019
42775188 1948 Leaf #138 Larry Doby PSA 4 PWCC-HE 401739891749 4/9/2019
42775189 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401739891345 4/9/2019
42775190 1948 Leaf #32 Warren Spahn PSA 4 PWCC-HE 143194058409 4/9/2019
42775191 1948 Leaf #1 Jack Dempsey PSA 5
42775192 1948 Leaf #34 Sammy Baugh Maroon Jersey PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401729596471 3/24/2019
42775193 1949 Bowman #224 Satchel Paige PSA 6 PWCC 352630834050 4/9/2019
42775194 Missing
42775195 1951 Bowman #253 Mickey Mantle PSA 5 PWCC-HE 352630838839 4/9/2019
42775196 1951 Bowman #305 Willie Mays PSA 4 PWCC 352608453494 3/13/2019
42775197 Missing
42775198 Missing
42775199 1951 Bowman #7 Gil Hodges PSA 9 PWCC-HE 352608451966 3/13/2019
42775200 Missing
42775201 1952 Topps #311 Mickey Mantle PSA 4.5 PWCC-E 352652483287 CURRENTLY LISTED
42775202 Missing
42775203 1953 Bowman #32 Stan Musial PSA 6
04-09 were not graded : returned ungraded for alterations or min grade?
10 1955 Roberto Clemente RC PSA 4
11 1955 Sandy Koufax RC PSA 7
12 1955 Parkhurst Jacques Plante PSA 7
13 *no cert*
14 1956 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8.5
15 *no cert*
16 1956 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7
17 1957 Topps Johnny Unitas RC PSA 7.5
18 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax PSA 7.5
19 *no cert*
20 1958 Topps Bobby Hull PSA 5
21 1958 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7
22 1958 Topps Orlando Cepeda RC PSA 9
23 *no cert*
24 1961 Fleer Wilt Chamberlain PSA 7
25 *no cert*
26 1963 Fleer Checklist PSA 8.5
27 *no cert*
28 *no cert*
29 *no cert*
30 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 9
31 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 8.5
32 1966 Philadelphia Jim Brown PSA 9
33 1967 Topps Tom Seaver RC PSA 8
34 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan RC PSA 8
35 1969 Topps Reggie Jackson RC PSA 8.5
36 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle White Letter PSA 7
37 1975 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8
38 1979 Topps Wayne Gretzky PSA 8
39 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky PSA 8
40 1985 OPC Mario Lemieux PSA 9
41 1921 Exhibits Babe Ruth PSA 5

Yes, the high percentage of stickered cards from the same consignor/consignment was noted and questioned on Blowout. People there are speculating that these are actually PWCC's cards but I am not seeing evidence of that.

[swarmee]

Looks like the Musial in this was previously a BGS 6 and part of the right edge may have been shaved. Check the blowout thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like the Musial in this was previously a BGS 6 and part of the right edge may have been shaved. Check the blowout thread.

It's an epidemic. And has been for some time. Fortunately, we have some guys with the energy to track these things down and the tech skills to depict it convincingly. We'll see where it goes. I don't know that it's going to go as far as the truth, which I believe to be just extremely ugly in terms of who is doing these things and also who is enabling them, but we'll see.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like the Musial in this was previously a BGS 6 and part of the right edge may have been shaved. Check the blowout thread.

And the ID has been outed, one that will be no surprise to some of the old-timers here.

[aconte]

And the ID has been outed, one that will be no surprise to some of the old-timers here.


Yep! This is true. The group on blowout is doing great research.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yep! This is true. The group on blowout is doing great research.

It's all very troubling, and they have turned their attention to vintage now, it's not just shiny inserts.

[savedfrommyspokes]

It's all very troubling, and they have turned their attention to vintage now, it's not just shiny inserts.

Glad that some of BO's members have been focusing their investigative skills into this, they have certainly done a commendable job...I wonder why more folks from this board have not jumped into this saga? My guess: this is definitely not the first situation such as this that this board has seen, and most every time the scandal peeks because of the light shined on it and then life returns to (a new) normal with the situation minimized only to appear again later in a slightly different form with a few different names mixed in. It is like playing a game of whack-a-mole.

While the members of BO have done great work calling attention to this situation and this effort is much appreciated, to me it seems their expectations for recourse in this situation may have been set too high. I fear that they may come out of this situation disappointed with the 'final" outcome.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Glad that some of BO's members have been focusing their investigative skills into this, they have certainly done a commendable job...I wonder why more folks from this board have not jumped into this saga? My guess: this is definitely not the first situation such as this that this board has seen, and most every time the scandal peeks because of the light shined on it and then life returns to (a new) normal with the situation minimized only to appear again later in a slightly different form with a few different names mixed in. It is like playing a game of whack-a-mole.

While the members of BO have done great work calling attention to this situation and this effort is much appreciated, to me it seems their expectations for recourse in this situation may have been set too high. I fear that they may come out of this situation disappointed with the 'final" outcome.

Some truth to this. I admire the idealism of the BO guys but I think they may be overrating their own influence against the powers that be that have a huge interest in protecting the status quo and card values. I'd be satisfied with some diminishment of the freedom with which card doctors operate, I'm not looking to knock down windmills.

That said, I think part of the relative indifference here is that at least some people have drunk the Kool Aid.

[Fuddjcal]

Glad that some of BO's members have been focusing their investigative skills into this, they have certainly done a commendable job...I wonder why more folks from this board have not jumped into this saga? My guess: this is definitely not the first situation such as this that this board has seen, and most every time the scandal peeks because of the light shined on it and then life returns to (a new) normal with the situation minimized only to appear again later in a slightly different form with a few different names mixed in. It is like playing a game of whack-a-mole.

While the members of BO have done great work calling attention to this situation and this effort is much appreciated, to me it seems their expectations for recourse in this situation may have been set too high. I fear that they may come out of this situation disappointed with the 'final" outcome.

I jumped in and have been outspoken about it.

I was going to try and buy that Mantle Card too.:confused: Looking at another one in person today and THEN I'm OUT, just as fast as I was in.:D. No it's not PSA, LOL but was re-holdered once :D

They do have high expectations at BO and should. That's a good they have hope. Like, I hope Santa Claus comes down the chimney Dec 25th. Nothing will happen but both companies will have their reputations further soiled.



We also know absolutely nothing will change and that PREWAR, "Mr. Conservation", will continue to send doctored cards into PSA and they will keep the scam going for him and his card doctoring I mean conservation crew, IMHO. Don't worry about that.

Like I said, I just want them to come clean, but this is doctoring for profit and is FRAUD & meant to deceive plain and simple. (IMHO) They won't & can't come clean any more than they already admitted on the BO thread that the card was Doctored. They will continue to deny, even though the evidence is overwhelming that they are complicit in the crime. I mean, they have to keep lying, sorta like Tony Podsada for 40 years a liar.

As good as they were for the card business, the Curt Shilling and Gaylord Perrying is really tiresome, bothersome and crooked. F PREWAR

[Fastball]

Wow, that looks very close to the 52 Mantle I regrettably sold a few years back. It was originally my dad's. You never know … 352192

352193

[Fastball]

The resemblance of the OP card to this one is very close. (better pics).

[savedfrommyspokes]

So this card had been graded THREE separate times(that we know of)? I am getting very confused by the ownership of this card. Based on the timeline the BO OP provided, he must have viewed it raw after it was cracked out of cert #14016493.

Certification Number 14016493
Year 1952
Brand TOPPS
Sport BASEBALL CARDS
Card Number 311
Player MICKEY MANTLE
Grade VG-EX+ 4.5
3/28/2014 $36,410.43 Goodwin and Co. Auctions 5


Was the card somehow damaged during the removal from cert # 14016493? The images Ryan provided raw do not seem to match the images that the OP on BO provided. Any help with the timeline you can provide Ryan, would be helpful. I am assuming Ryan sold the card raw to whoever had it graded in the 14016493 holder. The cert #s beginning with "1401" appear to be from over 10 years ago as I have cert #s starting with 1401 in sets I completed in 2008, 2009.

And, if the same card, yet again another cert # NOT removed from the registry.

Edited to add: some of the small print marks on the back of the current 4.5 Mantle do not appear on the back of the card in the 14016493 card, my guess two separate cards.

[MattyC]

Hey Guys,

Get your facts straight.

The Goodwin card that was owned by Fastball's dad, who pulled it from a pack, is my card, has been since that sale, and resides in my collection.

The centering on mine, pictured above by others here, is not the same as as the current PWCC card, which as anyone with a good eye can see has tilt.

Nice try, though.

Thanks to the member here who just texted me to tell me; pretty telling way how bad info starts and gets spread.

MC

[GregC]

So this card had been graded THREE separate times(that we know of)? I am getting very confused by the ownership of this card. Based on the timeline the BO OP provided, he must have viewed it raw after it was cracked out of cert #14016493.

Certification Number 14016493
Year 1952
Brand TOPPS
Sport BASEBALL CARDS
Card Number 311
Player MICKEY MANTLE
Grade VG-EX+ 4.5
3/28/2014 $36,410.43 Goodwin and Co. Auctions 5


Was the card somehow damaged during the removal from cert # 14016493? The images Ryan provided raw do not seem to match the images that the OP on BO provided. Any help with the timeline you can provide Ryan, would be helpful. I am assuming Ryan sold the card raw to whoever had it graded in the 14016493 holder. The cert #s beginning with "1401" appear to be from over 10 years ago as I have cert #s starting with 1401 in sets I completed in 2008, 2009.

And, if the same card, yet again another cert # NOT removed from the registry.

Edited to add: some of the small print marks on the back of the current 4.5 Mantle do not appear on the back of the card in the 14016493 card, my guess two separate cards.

Good edit, not a guess but more a fact. Let's all pump the brakes on posting every piece of armchair detective work as facts both here and on Blowout. Be certain before hitting submit post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah please let's be careful, one guy on BO was already taken to task for equating two Leafs that clearly were different cards. A lot of these cards have similar centering, but you really need much more to say they're the same card. Trying to get a tilted card by Matt is like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster, to adapt a phrase.

[MattyC]

Thanks, Peter. It is as much curse as blessing, LOL! I can't walk my own hall without adjusting every picture hanging on it :)

To think I just had to take a sudden break from a work call to come online and put an immediate stop to a total stranger venturing down a slanderous road on my favorite card and cherished family piece. That card went from Fastball's family to me and my son, and won't be changing hands for many, many, many decades.

If GregC didn't text me, who knows what theories would have been spun about my card by day's end. Very uncool, and people need to be responsible.

I guess on the bright side, now thanks to those posted pics of when it was raw, the world sees mine is 100% unaltered ;)

[savedfrommyspokes]

Hey Guys,

Get your facts straight.

The Goodwin card that was owned by Fastball's dad, who pulled it from a pack, is my card, has been since that sale, and resides in my collection.

The centering on mine, pictured above by others here, is not the same as as the current PWCC card, which as anyone with a good eye can see has tilt.

Nice try, though.

Thanks to the member here who just texted me to tell me; pretty telling way how bad info starts and gets spread.

MC

Glad the resemblance is just a resemblance as Ryan mentioned, Minus the centering, several of the small print spots on the front are similar on both cards. However, the timeline was not adding up nor was the back. I apologize for involving your card.....BTW, very nice example.

[MattyC]

Thanks, Larry. Appreciate it. No harm, no foul; all good.

[HRBAKER]

Some truth to this. I admire the idealism of the BO guys but I think they may be overrating their own influence against the powers that be that have a huge interest in protecting the status quo and card values. I'd be satisfied with some diminishment of the freedom with which card doctors operate, I'm not looking to knock down windmills.

That said, I think part of the relative indifference here is that at least some people have drunk the Kool Aid.

Sometimes the level of vested interest affects objectivity as well.

[OlderTheBetter]

I don't consider soaking or pressing down a corner to be alteration and neither does PSA. Soaking just takes away surface dirt that was not originally there, and pressing is not changing the composition or changing the dimensions.

I also don't consider stain removal to be alteration. Again it's removing something that is not part of the actual card and was not orginally there.

IMHO this Mantle is clean conservation. They definitely did a little cleaning and pressing. No big deal.

I also collect comics and I think that the comic book community has a much more realistic attitude toward cleaning and pressing. For some reason sports card collectors prefer to keep their heads in the sand and pretend that these rampant practices are not happening.

It's a joke on them.

[nolemmings]

Thank you for your humble opinion. We'll agree to disagree.

Sports card collectors are not all pretending that "these rampant practices are not happening". On the contrary, as is evident from many posts here and elsewhere in this forum, several are sounding the alarm and their displeasure.
To them and me, it is no joke.

Enjoy your comic books, although to some extent that can be difficult if they are slabbed and unreadable. This might also explain why at least some restoration in that hobby is more tolerated. It seems harder to be bothered over changes that are likely not going to be seen; e.g., those to the pages inside the front and back covers.

[OlderTheBetter]

There are a lot of altered cards out there. You may have some in your collection. In fact if you have a significant number of older high-end cards that you purchased, slabbed or not -- then it's even more likely.

This stuff has been going on for years and has mostly been tolerated by the hobby or it else wouldn't now be so rampant, and and has now reached the stage of hypocrisy. A 52 Mantle appears to be have been "conserved". Wa wa wa. What about all the other thousands of altered cards over the years where there was a wink and a nod and nothing was said or done about it?

This just didnt' start happening overnight. PSA's first card ever was trimmed. The original sin. High quality counterfeits are the next big thing. So yes I think that collectors are fooling themselves to think this might be going away in their lifetime. As long as there are large profits to be made selling to collectors who are paying big bucks for old cardboard then it will continue.
It's been gaining steam steadily in recent years and nothing to stop it.

Don't expect grading companies to do anything. They do a volume business and their backlogs are already objectionable.

[ajg]

Wow With all the scrutiny this card has undergone it STILL got almost $59,000 for a PSA 4.5. Mantle Rookie cards show no signs of slowing down anytime soon.

[Republicaninmass]

Wow With all the scrutiny this card has undergone it STILL got almost $59,000 for a PSA 4.5. Mantle Rookie cards show no signs of slowing down anytime soon.

No? Didnt a bvg 4.5 sell last night for 18k ?

Must be the "eyeballs" :rolleyes:

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Wow With all the scrutiny this card has undergone it STILL got almost $59,000 for a PSA 4.5. Mantle Rookie cards show no signs of slowing down anytime soon.

Wait there was a Mantle ROOKIE too??? :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

No? Didnt a bvg 4.5 sell last night for 18k ?

Must be the "eyeballs" :rolleyes:

People must have been worried the Beckett one was altered.:rolleyes:

[dio]

People must have been worried the Beckett one was altered.:rolleyes:

that beckett one is more like a psa 1.5 or less

[chalupacollects]

Wow With all the scrutiny this card has undergone it STILL got almost $59,000 for a PSA 4.5. Mantle Rookie cards show no signs of slowing down anytime soon.

Yep winning bidder with under 50 feedback and all previous bids with PWCC. Another underbidder also had 100% bidding with PWCC a third with 66%... Quite possible this card ends up in the PWCC vault for a very very long time...

[Republicaninmass]

that beckett one is more like a psa 1.5 or less

It would probably be a PSA 3 with that light soiling in front. Plenty o' 3s have that same rub on the front. All I collect is 52 topps and have seen plenty that look worse on the front. Am I missing something else?

[tschock]

Yep winning bidder with under 50 feedback and all previous bids with PWCC. Another underbidder also had 100% bidding with PWCC a third with 66%... Quite possible this card ends up in the PWCC vault for a very very long time...

Right next to the Ark of the Covenant.

[chalupacollects]

Right next to the Ark of the Covenant.

Yes the certified autograph one!:p

[jchcollins]

See the PWCC "Conservation" thread that they started over on the Prewar forum. It's all the same - the ends justify the means, and the sad fact is that for most people - once a card resides in a numbered slab, the desire to question how it may have actually gotten there rapidly fades. Some of the other points in this thread are very well valid also - we may be better at detecting the work now this day in age where internet scans of before and after raw alteration and apparent fradulent slabbing jobs seep out of the woodwork - but don't think for a second that doesn't mean it wasn't also happening back in the 1990's. The fact that the vast majority of the hobby today simply glosses over the fact that the very first PSA slab job on the Gretzky Wagner was a total sham - is telling in terms of how as a whole people still just want to leave their heads stuck in the sand.

For me personally, all of the suspicion has reached such a fever pitch that I am really loathe to trust the TPG's anymore, even on mid-grade cards. So I just try not to think about it and buy cards at reasonable prices that are aesthetically pleasing to me. It's certainly why I don't want to spend multiples more on a "high-end" graded card when for my own purposes - a nice PSA 4-6 range example will do just fine. Yes, it's less likely that someone would take the time to alter stuff to mess with a PSA 4.5 of the type cards that I'm able to afford - a couple hundred bucks here and there a the most - but if they are able to do it for lesser grades of the marquee cards, and do it all the time seemingly now convincingly - what type of cards are next?

[Fuddjcal]

I don't want to get kicked off the board for railing a paid advertiser of this site, but the facts are the FACTS period...something is rotten in Denmark.

[jchcollins]

I don't want to get kicked off the board for railing a paid advertiser of this site, but the facts are the FACTS period...something is rotten in Denmark.

To me it's just them suggesting that we continue down the path of the slippery slope. "Come on guys! We all know this kind of thing happens with old cards - whether fixing a bent corner or removing a pencil mark. Is it really that bad? You all know you do it...why don't we just admit that certain things are ok!"

Doesn't it sound like the kid on the playground back in the day, trying to get you to cheat or do something else untoward that you know you shouldn't do? The problem of course with this line of thinking is where do you draw the line? Even with otherwise well-intentioned TPG's, the hobby has been arguing for nearly 30 years now on the consistency of grading standards and as a whole, has generally proven the inability to agree on things like this long term for some time now. So suddenly we should just start relxaing even more standards and things will somehow just magically be ok? Oy. Many, many bridges for sale right now.

[jchcollins]

There are a lot of altered cards out there. You may have some in your collection. In fact if you have a significant number of older high-end cards that you purchased, slabbed or not -- then it's even more likely.

This stuff has been going on for years and has mostly been tolerated by the hobby or it else wouldn't now be so rampant, and and has now reached the stage of hypocrisy. A 52 Mantle appears to be have been "conserved". Wa wa wa. What about all the other thousands of altered cards over the years where there was a wink and a nod and nothing was said or done about it?

This just didnt' start happening overnight. PSA's first card ever was trimmed. The original sin. High quality counterfeits are the next big thing. So yes I think that collectors are fooling themselves to think this might be going away in their lifetime. As long as there are large profits to be made selling to collectors who are paying big bucks for old cardboard then it will continue.
It's been gaining steam steadily in recent years and nothing to stop it.

Don't expect grading companies to do anything. They do a volume business and their backlogs are already objectionable.

I would disagree with you if you are ok with all of this. But in terms of a realistic outlook on the situation, I fear you are closer to being correct than many of us would like to admit.

[Fuddjcal]

To me it's just them suggesting that we continue down the path of the slippery slope. "Come on guys! We all know this kind of thing happens with old cards - whether fixing a bent corner or removing a pencil mark. Is it really that bad? You all know you do it...why don't we just admit that certain things are ok!"

Doesn't it sound like the kid on the playground back in the day, trying to get you to cheat or do something else untoward that you know you shouldn't do? The problem of course with this line of thinking is where do you draw the line? Even with otherwise well-intentioned TPG's, the hobby has been arguing for nearly 30 years now on the consistency of grading standards and as a whole, has generally proven the inability to agree on things like this long term for some time now. So suddenly we should just start relxaing even more standards and things will somehow just magically be ok? Oy. Many, many bridges for sale right now.

I don't do it John, that's for sure and I certainly don't like it. Not that I wouldn't like to find a good card doctor, but it is out of control. Especially having to outbid a card doctor on nice 5's or 6's they turn into 8's and 9's.

PSA needs to hire that Moser kid at the very least to see if he can help detect the trimming, soaking, solvents, pressing spooning, etc. Because PSA certainly can't tell on a regular basis. They may have to submit a card several times, but they eventually ALL get through, I'm sure. PSA are Boobs.

Do we have to wait until Moser is facing jail time to make a deal like the "Catch Me if you can kid"?? Is Moser the doctor or is he buying the cards and paying the doctor, then flip and repeat?? OHHHHH Doctor!

The amount of $$ being made off of this fraud is at an astronomical level, that's not in dispute, is it?

[irv]

I don't do it John, that's for sure and I certainly don't like it. Not that I wouldn't like to find a good card doctor, but it is out of control. Especially having to outbid a card doctor on nice 5's or 6's they turn into 8's and 9's.

PSA needs to hire that Moser kid at the very least to see if he can help detect the trimming, soaking, solvents, pressing spooning, etc. Because PSA certainly can't tell on a regular basis. They may have to submit a card several times, but they eventually ALL get through, I'm sure. PSA are Boobs.

Do we have to wait until Moser is facing jail time to make a deal like the "Catch Me if you can kid"?? Is Moser the doctor or is he buying the cards and paying the doctor, then flip and repeat?? OHHHHH Doctor!

The amount of $$ being made off of this fraud is at an astronomical level, that's not in dispute, is it?

It's unbelievable how many "alterations" have been missed by PSA in just the last 3pgs of this link alone. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614&page=37

All were sold to one guy who seems to exclusively use PWCC as a seller once he decides to sell again.

Some of these cards are so bad, like superdan states, that PSA needed a mylar sleeve to keep them from moving around in their slab. :confused:

I know some will still defend PSA by stating mistakes happen, which is true, but to this extent makes that statement quite unreasonable, imo.

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252
PSA unofficially responded on Net54 that they will review all these cards for free under their grade guarantee!

[jchcollins]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252
PSA unofficially responded on Net54 that they will review all these cards for free under their grade guarantee!

Not going to be that simple though. The owners of said cards all would have to agree to have them reviewed, correct? Maybe some on here would, but I doubt all or even close to a majority by a longshot. And just from what I have seen with the "outed" cards on Blowout, sounds to me like they don't have nearly enough in the bank to buy all those cards back.

[swarmee]

PSA has removed Cert #s from their registry in the past without the owner's permission. If you return them now, you get a full refund. If the market drops by half next year, they only get refunded the "current market price"; if you're the owner, are you taking that chance?
If your card is decertified and no longer can be used in a registry, does it have the same value to the owner?