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frankbmd
04-03-2019, 10:26 PM
We discuss statistics ad nauseum as qualifying data for Hall of Fame selection, but what about Hall of Famers, who hold records that a casual observer would consider dubious and hardly worthy a Hall of Fame career.

The first nominee to the dubious HOF would be Cy Young, who holds the career record for pitching losses with 315.

Interestingly 9 of the top 10 losers in major league history are members of the Hall of Fame.

As a bonus trivia question, and without looking, who is the biggest loser not in the Hall of Fame?

Letís see some other Hall of Famers who set records they probably are not proud of. These dubious records of achievements need not be career records. Seasonal or single game records are fine. Even police records will do.

Everyone has records they are not proud of, even Hall of Famers.:eek:

darwinbulldog
04-03-2019, 10:35 PM
Reggie and Thome are the career leaders for strikeouts. Judge is on a blistering pace, but the top of the leaderboard is safe for a few more years.

No idea who the pitcher is. Jamie Moyer?

t206kid
04-03-2019, 10:55 PM
My guess was Tommy John. Then I looked because I knew I was wrong.

NEVER would have guessed that. His career ERA was rather good for a .500 pitcher.

Mountaineer1999
04-03-2019, 10:59 PM
I didn't realize Tommy John had that many wins.

riggs336
04-03-2019, 11:22 PM
Top five in GIDP are Pujols, Ripken, Pudge, Aaron and Yaz. Baines is eleventb.

ValKehl
04-03-2019, 11:24 PM
Jim Kaat?

packs
04-03-2019, 11:27 PM
Ernie Banks played in 2528 games, none of them in the postseason.

frankbmd
04-03-2019, 11:31 PM
The biggest loser not in the Hall of Fame has not been mentioned yet.

cardsfan73
04-04-2019, 12:00 AM
The biggest loser not in the Hall of Fame has not been mentioned yet.

Would it be former St. Louis Cardinals, Perfectos & Browns pitcher Jack Powell?

oldjudge
04-04-2019, 01:36 AM
How about Bobby Mathews

frankbmd
04-04-2019, 03:40 AM
Would it be former St. Louis Cardinals, Perfectos & Browns pitcher Jack Powell?

Correct trivia answer, until proven wrong.

Now on with the dubious statistical achievements of our heroes.

Yastrzemski Sports
04-04-2019, 08:38 AM
I would love to have Reggie sign a ball that says All Time Strikeout King.

gonzo
04-04-2019, 09:49 AM
Only a great player gets a chance to make over 8500 outs in a major league career. 5 HoFs and Pete Rose.


1. Pete Rose (24). 10328 B
2. Hank Aaron+ (23). 9136 R
3. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23). 9126 L
4. Cal Ripken+ (21). 8893 R
5. Eddie Murray+ (21). 8569 B
6. Rickey Henderson+ (25). 8510 R


https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/outs_made_career.shtml

Would Rose sign a ball ďAll-time Out KingĒ? Heía signed almost everything else.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 09:51 AM
Reggie and Thome are the career leaders for strikeouts. Judge is on a blistering pace, but the top of the leaderboard is safe for a few more years.

No idea who the pitcher is. Jamie Moyer?

Judge might be a season or two away from a HOF career also...

packs
04-04-2019, 09:59 AM
Judge might be a season or two away from a HOF career also...

The difference is that Judge still gets on base. Reggie didn't know what a strike was.

frankbmd
04-04-2019, 10:56 AM
In NYC the sacred cows of the judicial system are Judge Judy and Aaron Judge.

Letís not judge Aaron harshly until he both breaks Reggieís record and gets inducted into the HOF.

(sound of gavel) Case closed.

frankbmd
04-04-2019, 11:35 AM
And just to get this thread back on track,

Cap Anson committed 658 errors while playing first base. He has a substantial lead on the rest of the field.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 12:22 PM
Judge might be a season or two away from a HOF career also...

The difference is that Judge still gets on base. Reggie didn't know what a strike was.

Anyone want to take a futures bet on Reggie's vs Aaron Judges Career HR's I'll take Reggie at 2 to 1.

packs
04-04-2019, 12:39 PM
Anyone want to take a futures bet on Reggie's vs Aaron Judges Career HR's I'll take Reggie at 2 to 1.

Not really sure what that has to do with Judge being able to take a walk and providing a value Reggie couldn't. Judge's 7.2 WAR during his rookie year was a mark Reggie only eclipsed once, and it was during the one season Reggie managed to walk 100 times.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 12:42 PM
Last response as we're hijacking this thread. I think there's a good chance that 7.2 will be Judge's career high when all is said and done. Oh and Reggie did walk 1375 times in his career, with an OBP 94 points higher than his Avg.

packs
04-04-2019, 01:55 PM
The top five pitchers who have walked the most batters all time are all HOFers:

Nolan Ryan; Steve Carlton; Phil Niekro; Early Wynn; and Bob Feller.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 02:23 PM
Niekro has got to be top 5 for losses too. Probably one of very few HOF'ers to lose 20 in a season.

frankbmd
04-04-2019, 02:27 PM
Niekro has got to be top 5 for losses too. Probably one of very few HOF'ers to lose 20 in a season.

Cy Young lost 20 or more in 3 seasons.;)

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 02:34 PM
Pud Galvin averaged 20 losses a year, but in the 19th Century. How many of Cy's were 20th century? Also if Cy were the only other one that would qualify as "very few" in my book :)

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 02:51 PM
OK so there's a decent handful, Robin Roberts was the only other 2nd half of the century guy I saw, but Eppa Rixey, Ted Lyons (neither of whom SHOULD be in) Some guy named Walter Johnson all lost 20 in the 20th century.

frankbmd
04-04-2019, 04:28 PM
Does arguing with yourself require a mirror?:D:D

insidethewrapper
04-04-2019, 04:35 PM
The greatest players have the most of everything, because they played the most games. Most wins, losses etc. I think Pete Rose made the most outs (9797) also most hits. Managers in HOF have the most losses etc.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-04-2019, 04:55 PM
Does arguing with yourself require a mirror?:D:D

LOL, it's more like publicly going down my own rabbit hole.

packs
04-04-2019, 05:24 PM
The greatest players have the most of everything, because they played the most games. Most wins, losses etc. I think Pete Rose made the most outs (9797) also most hits. Managers in HOF have the most losses etc.

Good point; Connie Mack was a sub-500 manager over his entire career and lost more than 3900 games.

Tabe
04-04-2019, 07:48 PM
Niekro has got to be top 5 for losses too. Probably one of very few HOF'ers to lose 20 in a season.

Nah. Lots of them did it. However...

Phil is the only guy to lead the league in wins AND losses in the same year!

Econteachert205
04-04-2019, 07:57 PM
Tony Mullane for losses?

Keith H. Thompson
04-05-2019, 03:02 PM
a dubious record, for sure. Somewhat depending upon the reporting source, Sam Thompson (Detroit 1885-1888, Philadelphia 1889-1898, Detroit 1906, HOF 1974) in 1895 became either the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game.

A curious record at best, dependent of course upon four base runners on third attempting to score after a Thompson catch. Thompson was an outstanding right fielder, and among all outfielders who played more than 1,000 games , his assist-per-game ratio (one every 4.9 games) is the highest in history.

He also compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1,000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century.

clydepepper
04-05-2019, 03:54 PM
On his very last pitch as a Major Leaguer, Nolan Ryan set the career record for most Grand Slams surrendered by one pitcher - as Dann Howitt (who?) of the Mariners took him deep in the first inning on September 22, 1993.


Since then, this dubious record has been tied by one now-retired reliever and then broken by a now-retired starter. Anyone want to guess who these non-HOF pitchers are?



Bert Blyleven, who had never surrendered more than 24 homers in any single season, set the Gopher-Ball record in 1986 with 50 and then gave up another 46 in 1987.

In 1988, he only gave up 21, but led the lead with 16 HBPs...hmmmm.


=

frankbmd
04-05-2019, 06:13 PM
a dubious record, for sure. Somewhat depending upon the reporting source, Sam Thompson (Detroit 1885-1888, Philadelphia 1889-1898, Detroit 1906, HOF 1974) in 1895 became either the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game.

A curious record at best, dependent of course upon four base runners on third attempting to score after a Thompson catch. Thompson was an outstanding right fielder, and among all outfielders who played more than 1,000 games , his assist-per-game ratio (one every 4.9 games) is the highest in history.

He also compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1,000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century.

Certainly in the spirit of this thread and Iím guessing he may be your great-grandfather. My grandmother was a Thompson before she was a Burkett incidentally.

Jim65
04-05-2019, 08:11 PM
On his very last pitch as a Major Leaguer, Nolan Ryan set the career record for most Grand Slams surrendered by one pitcher


=

The other side of the coin, Jim Palmer never gave up a grand slam or back-to-back HRs in his entire career.

paul
04-05-2019, 08:16 PM
Vic Willis lost 29 games in one season, the most since 1900.

Cubswin82
04-05-2019, 08:51 PM
The other side of the coin, Jim Palmer never gave up a grand slam or back-to-back HRs in his entire career.

Is this true? If so...thatís a very impressive stat

Mike D.
04-05-2019, 09:24 PM
The first nominee to the dubious HOF would be Cy Young, who holds the career record for pitching losses with 315.

Plus, if he was so great, why didn't he ever win one of those Cy Young awards? :p

doug.goodman
04-06-2019, 08:33 AM
The other side of the coin, Jim Palmer never gave up a grand slam or back-to-back HRs in his entire career.

Is this true? If so...thatís a very impressive stat

Only partially true.

While it's true that he didn't give up a grand slam, he gave up consecutive homers on five different occasions :

June 23, 1970 (N) at Fenway Park, Red Sox
5th inning
Conigliaro & Petrocelli

July 10, 1973 (N) at Memorial Stadium, Angels
4th inning
Oliver & Stanton (1st of 3 in game, 2 off Palmer)

June 9, 1977 (N) at Fenway Park, Red Sox
3rd inning
Lynn & Rice

April 19, 1980 (N) at Memorial Stadium, White Sox
7th inning
Morrison & Baines

September 1, 1983 (D) at Exhibition Stadium, Blue Jays
4th inning
Whitt & Barfield

darwinbulldog
04-06-2019, 09:02 AM
Well, he never gave up consecutive grand slams anyway.

Jim65
04-06-2019, 09:04 PM
Only partially true.

While it's true that he didn't give up a grand slam, he gave up consecutive homers on five different occasions :

June 23, 1970 (N) at Fenway Park, Red Sox
5th inning
Conigliaro & Petrocelli

July 10, 1973 (N) at Memorial Stadium, Angels
4th inning
Oliver & Stanton (1st of 3 in game, 2 off Palmer)

June 9, 1977 (N) at Fenway Park, Red Sox
3rd inning
Lynn & Rice

April 19, 1980 (N) at Memorial Stadium, White Sox
7th inning
Morrison & Baines

September 1, 1983 (D) at Exhibition Stadium, Blue Jays
4th inning
Whitt & Barfield


I got my info from Wikipedia, I should have known better.

clydepepper
04-06-2019, 10:20 PM
Is this true? If so...that’s a very impressive stat

Yes, it's true that he never surrendered a grand-slam.

IMO, it was a difference in pitching philosophy: Ryan seemed to see such occasions as personal challenges, while Palmer knew that an occasional bases-loaded-walk did less damage. Even as a big Nolan Ryan fan, I have to admit this.

Jim65
04-07-2019, 08:27 AM
Yes, it's true that he never surrendered a grand-slam.

IMO, it was a difference in pitching philosophy: Ryan seemed to see such occasions as personal challenges, while Palmer knew that an occasional bases-loaded-walk did less damage. Even as a big Nolan Ryan fan, I have to admit this.

It would be interesting to see how many Bases loaded walks each had.

doug.goodman
04-07-2019, 04:43 PM
It would be interesting to see how many Bases loaded walks each had.

Ryan had 47 bases loaded walks, Palmer had 13.

darwinbulldog
04-08-2019, 02:54 PM
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

clydepepper
04-08-2019, 11:02 PM
I bet Ryan had a lot more bases loaded situations than Palmer and perhaps the percentage of those situations ending in a walk may actually be fairly close.

frankbmd
04-08-2019, 11:13 PM
I bet Ryan had a lot more bases loaded situations than Palmer and perhaps the percentage of those situations ending in a walk may actually be fairly close.

I bet Ryan issued more walks than Palmer in any of the following

Bases empty
Man of first
Man on second
Man on third
Men on first and second
Men on first and third
Men on second and third
And bases full

Jim65
04-09-2019, 07:08 AM
I bet Ryan had a lot more bases loaded situations than Palmer and perhaps the percentage of those situations ending in a walk may actually be fairly close.

So if one pitcher puts 20 men on base and 4 score and the other pitcher puts 5 on and 1 scores, these pitchers are equal because the percentage is the same?

itslarry
04-09-2019, 07:31 AM
This whole thread has been a really entertaining read. Thanks everyone for making my porcelain thrown time enjoyable:D

darwinbulldog
04-09-2019, 08:59 AM
So if one pitcher puts 20 men on base and 4 score and the other pitcher puts 5 on and 1 scores, these pitchers are equal because the percentage is the same?

Nicely done.

darwinbulldog
04-09-2019, 09:06 AM
I bet Ryan issued more walks than Palmer in any of the following

Bases empty
Man of first
Man on second
Man on third
Men on first and second
Men on first and third
Men on second and third
And bases full


Pretty likely. Ryan was a K machine, striking out 49% more batters than the average of the next ten pitchers on the career leaderboard. But he was even more of a BB machine, walking 65% more batters than the average of the next ten pitchers (all of whom, speaking of dubious HOF records, are either in the HOF or are named Roger Clemens).

frankbmd
04-09-2019, 10:15 AM
This whole thread has been a really entertaining read. Thanks everyone for making my porcelain thrown time enjoyable:D

Letís keep this thread going with some more dubious records, as Larry tells me he is constipated.

btcarfagno
04-10-2019, 12:07 PM
Goose Goslin grounded into four consecutive double plays. Not sure if that is still the record. I know it was tied once in the 1960's.

Jim65
04-10-2019, 01:07 PM
Goose Goslin grounded into four consecutive double plays. Not sure if that is still the record. I know it was tied once in the 1960's.

I remember when Joe Torre grounded into 4 DPs with the Mets, he blamed Felix Millan for going 4 for 4 in front of him. :)

frankbmd
04-10-2019, 06:26 PM
I remember when Joe Torre grounded into 4 DPs with the Mets, he blamed Felix Millan for going 4 for 4 in front of him. :)

And I bet that was Millan's last four hit game.:D

Spike
04-16-2019, 09:58 PM
Rickey (335) and Brock (307) are top two for career caught stealing...and I didn't realize Rod Carew (187) would be in the top 10!

Ron LeFlore (142 in 9 years) "leads" for guys who played less than ten seasons.

With Ichiro (117) retired, Rajal Davis (107) becomes MLB's active CS leader and can build on that, assuming he's recalled to the bigs from Syracuse at some point.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-16-2019, 10:04 PM
Actually that's mind boggling that Rickey was THAT much better than Brock. Virtually the same caught stealing for what 500 more successful swipes?

darwinbulldog
04-16-2019, 10:17 PM
Take a look at Raines.

howard38
04-16-2019, 10:50 PM
Rickey (335) and Brock (307) are top two for career caught stealing...and I didn't realize Rod Carew (187) would be in the top 10!

Ron LeFlore (142 in 9 years) "leads" for guys who played less than ten seasons.

With Ichiro (117) retired, Rajal Davis (107) becomes MLB's active CS leader and can build on that, assuming he's recalled to the bigs from Syracuse at some point.
Ty Cobb would probably be the all-time leader, and by a lot, if CS stats were available for his entire career.

frankbmd
04-17-2019, 09:09 AM
The case for the intentional walk as a dubious record.

1. The ultimate passive achievement for the batter who is issued a free pass, but still a rather common one for a HOF slugger.

2. A strategic call by the opposing manager based on several factors often not related to batter such as

Putting a runner on first to set up a double play, particularly if the slugger is not a fleet base runner.

Removing the threat of a damaging hitter to pitch to a guy hitting .137, which is as much related to the poorer hitter than the batter receiving the walk.

Creating a more favorable righty-lefty matchup for his pitcher, in the era of analytics.

And so forth.

And throw in the non-intentional intentional walk, where the pitcher ardently avoids giving the batter a decent pitch and ends up walking him nevertheless if the batter doesn’t offer at a bouncing curve ball or a slider further away than the length his bat.:eek:

The last statement renders any recorded statistic irrelevant, but I would be willing to bet the career leader is in Cooperstown. And of course I would be wrong. The career leader actually has more than twice as many IBBs as number two on the list and neither is a HOFer at least not yet, Bonds and Pujols. Also note that intentional walks were not a recorded stat for prewar players before 1941. The leading HOFer though in this category is Stan Musial, who leads Hank Aaron by 5, and always will.;):D