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WWG
03-26-2019, 01:55 PM
Does this look like the same card? Especially from the backside. What would make this jump from a SGC 5 to a 7?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2011/spring/684/1936-v355-world-wide-gum-joe-dimaggio-rookie/

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1936-world-wide-gum-joe-dimaggio-51-sgc-nm-7-highest-grade-available/a/50012-51461.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=40|0

nsaddict
03-26-2019, 02:03 PM
Thinner borders lol....appears to be same card.

BLongley
03-26-2019, 02:34 PM
I think it is the same... looks like someone cleaned it up a bit. Yikes!! This is bad!

clydepepper
03-26-2019, 02:36 PM
The card on the right appears to be smaller :rolleyes:


Thanks...I'll be here all week.

bbcard1
03-26-2019, 02:38 PM
I'm not saying it's a rigged game, but the person sending it in can make a big difference.

steve B
03-26-2019, 02:47 PM
Unless it's been "enhanced" the corners on the 7 are much nicer.

Has it been trimmed? The Heritage scan can be blown up pretty far and I don't see anything really off about the edges. If it's been done, it was done really well.

Lorewalker
03-26-2019, 02:47 PM
I'm not saying it's a rigged game, but the person sending it in can make a big difference.

This does not appear to be a case of the person submitting it the second time getting a higher grade. Based on the backs of both cards they are the same card however the corners are much sharper on the SGC 7. Appears to be an altered card.

Good find to the OP and it is amazingly (scary) what can be done to cardboard. Makes me wonder just how many cards in my collection were in much lower graded slabs at one time.

pawpawdiv9
03-26-2019, 02:55 PM
Thanx, when i spent the day yesterday jacking the price up on it.

PiratesWS1979
03-26-2019, 03:25 PM
Good catch! Notice how the one spot along the edge is missing.

It's a real shame what has happened to two of these beauties, makes you wonder about the rest of our cards.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=990&pictureid=26644

ullmandds
03-26-2019, 03:27 PM
Is this different from the infamous altered PWCC one from a ways back? Or was that gehrig???

prestigecollectibles
03-26-2019, 03:40 PM
It's difficult to enlarge the REA image, but it is the same card.

Rhotchkiss
03-26-2019, 03:58 PM
Great catch. It’s a real shame someone took a really nice card and turned into an altered card in an SGC 7 slab. Boo on SGC as well.

Just a suggestion, but maybe change the name of the thread to something making it more obvious that an altered card is being called out - you probably get many more eyes on the thread.

ullmandds
03-26-2019, 05:02 PM
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837&page=36

soon its gonna be tough to find an unaltered joe d 36 goudey!

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 05:59 PM
Is this different from the infamous altered PWCC one from a ways back? Or was that gehrig???

That one was cleaned not trimmed I believe.

JollyElm
03-26-2019, 06:03 PM
https://i.imgur.com/duFdJEM.gif

ullmandds
03-26-2019, 06:20 PM
https://i.imgur.com/duFdJEM.gif

thats a lot of TRIM to get past SGC?

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 06:33 PM
Darren that's fantastic. The incredible shrinking card.

oldjudge
03-26-2019, 06:45 PM
The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in REA is the consignor to Heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

darwinbulldog
03-26-2019, 06:50 PM
"This card was reviewed and encapsulated under the new SGC grading system."

AGuinness
03-26-2019, 06:55 PM
Darren that's fantastic. The incredible shrinking card.



That is some great work and absolutely smashes it out of the park. Wow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 07:00 PM
The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in REA is the consignor to Heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

it hardly seems realistic to expect someone to confess to trimming the card and it's fairly clear from Darren's presentation that the card has been trimmed.

pokerplyr80
03-26-2019, 07:05 PM
Was there that much size variance in this issue that the smaller card wouldn't have raised a red flag?

timn1
03-26-2019, 07:09 PM
A mess....

Makes me glad I can't afford high-end cards, LOL.

BLongley
03-26-2019, 07:10 PM
I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 07:18 PM
Was there that much size variance in this issue that the smaller card wouldn't have raised a red flag?

I don't know about the 36 WWG specifically but size variations are common for the 33/34 Goudeys. Of course all the nice ones just happen to be on the shorter side lol.

WWG
03-26-2019, 07:28 PM
SGC didn't drop the ball once but TWICE, here's the same card regraded as a 7 with the old SGC slab.

JeremyW
03-26-2019, 07:42 PM
It's pretty obvious. Jeremy w@agoner.

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 07:45 PM
Harold Arlen could write about it.

Slice slice here
Dice dice there
It won't give the graders pause
That's how we do our card repair
In the merry old land of Oz

JeremyW
03-26-2019, 07:48 PM
Why would you trim a great card?

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 08:01 PM
Why would you trim a great card?

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

darwinbulldog
03-26-2019, 08:09 PM
Why would you trim a great card?

I'm $ure I don't know.

Rhotchkiss
03-26-2019, 08:28 PM
OP, great work outing this. Would you consider changing the title of the thread so it’s more obvious what the thread is about? Thanks

JeremyW
03-26-2019, 09:17 PM
Why did it get so quiet?

ullmandds
03-26-2019, 09:22 PM
Why did it get so quiet?

Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 09:35 PM
Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

LOL tell it bro. If you want noise, post something about shipping rates.:D

Lorewalker
03-26-2019, 09:39 PM
Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!


Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

JeremyW
03-26-2019, 09:42 PM
This should be a hot topic.

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 10:04 PM
Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

Some of each.

nsaddict
03-26-2019, 10:24 PM
Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

mechanicalman
03-26-2019, 10:32 PM
If this was a PWCC auction, the global price of pitchforks would have doubled by now.

brianp-beme
03-26-2019, 10:37 PM
Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

I copied and pasted this from BLongley's previous post in this thread:

I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

Brian

Jobu
03-26-2019, 10:52 PM
Definitely took a trip to the barber -- wash and a shave please!

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 10:55 PM
If this was a PWCC auction, the global price of pitchforks would have doubled by now.

Well, recall that the last time, it turned out Brent himself was the one who had purchased the SGC 50 out of REA and submitted the PSA 7 before selling it privately.

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 10:57 PM
Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

I let SGC know, in case they want to look into it.

BLongley
03-26-2019, 11:00 PM
FYI, Pete did write back and they are aware of the issue. They will be reviewing the card.

STL1944
03-26-2019, 11:02 PM
I know there have been cases of auction houses stopping the sale of a fake item, but have there been examples of AH stopping the sale of a trimmed item and then the item being pulled out of the flip?

Bram99
03-26-2019, 11:02 PM
Does this look like the same card? Especially from the backside. What would make this jump from a SGC 5 to a 7?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2011/spring/684/1936-v355-world-wide-gum-joe-dimaggio-rookie/

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1936-world-wide-gum-joe-dimaggio-51-sgc-nm-7-highest-grade-available/a/50012-51461.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=40|0

As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.

Peter_Spaeth
03-26-2019, 11:37 PM
The valuation, with due respect, is based primarily on the flip. Everyone knows there are lots of high grade altered cards in slabs. In times past the thought of an altered card was anathema, but times have changed. Prices have not been affected at all as far as I can tell, nor will they be IMO. They keep going up. Way up.

brianp-beme
03-26-2019, 11:39 PM
Definitely not surprised, and was always glad I made the conscious decision many a moon ago to collect lower condition cards...the trimming is usually a lot more obvious.

Brian

brianp-beme
03-26-2019, 11:49 PM
I believe the grading companies would at least be able to identify my cards as trimmed...I think.

Brian

pokerplyr80
03-26-2019, 11:56 PM
Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

Pretty sure if Heritage pulls the card it would go back to the consignor. It would be up to him if he wanted to try to work something out with SGC to put the card in an altered holder or leave it as is. Although I suppose they could pull the cert # from their database if he refused to cooperate.

ullmandds
03-27-2019, 06:18 AM
As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.

YUP!!! While the tpg’ers continue to “print money” with their grading practices...and many AH’s continue to push these cards along...in many instances shilling all the way...as long as their wallets keep getting filled...combined with many involved in the hobby not really caring...and as repeated instances of wrongdoing go unpunished...ultimately the collectors will pay a price...its just a matter of time.

hanes1111
03-27-2019, 08:32 AM
Where there is money there will always be corruption . Just the way it works unfortunately. This has been going on for so long and the blind eyes will remain as long as their is no accountability. Ive moved to collecting more antique memorabilia and antiques in general because of this. The new stuff is just as bad....used to be game worn/game used with pictures of the jersey or bat on the card and the companies would guarantee it, now its worded so vague and the sticker autograph and redemption crap is such a reach. I love cards but have lost all faith in the industry. Grading has become just another angle to scam more people. Only way to stop it or curb it is have an unbiased machine or program do the grading so all you tech guys get on it!

chalupacollects
03-27-2019, 08:32 AM
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

ullmandds
03-27-2019, 08:53 AM
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

ctownboy
03-27-2019, 09:46 AM
I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

darwinbulldog
03-27-2019, 09:48 AM
Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

hanes1111
03-27-2019, 11:17 AM
Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

This ^^^^^^

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 11:37 AM
I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Leon
03-27-2019, 11:43 AM
One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. :( The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 11:46 AM
Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. :( The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

WWG
03-27-2019, 12:43 PM
Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

oldjudge
03-27-2019, 01:00 PM
Nice job by Heritage!

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 01:03 PM
Nice job by Heritage!

And by Rennie.

oldjudge
03-27-2019, 01:09 PM
It would be nice if SGC would comment

petecld
03-27-2019, 01:21 PM
We (Heritage) discussed this with the consignor and will have the card reviewed by SGC. As has been mentioned, until then, the card has been removed from the auction.

Peter

Lorewalker
03-27-2019, 01:31 PM
I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

darwinbulldog
03-27-2019, 01:34 PM
I'm curious. What does it mean to say that SGC is going to review it at this point?

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 01:42 PM
I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

oldjudge
03-27-2019, 01:58 PM
Good job Pete. How about talking to Brian and seeing if the guy who won the card in REA is your consignor.

Lorewalker
03-27-2019, 02:21 PM
You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.


And let's be honest, I doubt there is anything in the auction houses' contracts with consignors nor their terms for buyers, that preclude them from disclosing names. They simply have not made it a practice because it is their goodwill, which makes sense but in cases like this Joe D card, where fraud is being committed, why not put the names out there? Cannot see how that would expose them to litigation but I do see how they might lose those those people as buyers or consignors. If all houses did this these losers would have no place to hide but the houses are guilty of being greedy and someone buying a bad card is not their problem. Seems it should be their problem because they are representing the card and taking a piece of the sale. Until it is illegal to sell an altered card I guess they are not responsible.

Funny that houses have no problem threatening to out someone who does not pay THEM but not when fraud is being perpetrated on someone other than THEM.

Same is true for the grading companies who are allegedly here to protect the consumer. So why keep secret the guys whose names have to be continuing to come up as being associated with doctored cards? Faux protection. It is unreal.

I suppose if the practice became to disclose identities, John Doe would be the consignor, original buyer and submitter.

Stampsfan
03-27-2019, 03:05 PM
The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another.

Yeah it's too bad more competitive businesses cannot work together. Wish the oil companies with retail stations could work together so there is less competition at the gas pumps.

Wait a minute...


Why would you trim a great card?
Why would you grade a trimmed card?

Exhibitman
03-27-2019, 03:17 PM
I'm curious. What does it mean to say that SGC is going to review it at this point?

It means they are huddled with their lawyers and insurers trying to see how badly they are going to get financially savaged for this, assuming the card doctor and the current owner are not the same person.

shagrotn77
03-27-2019, 03:47 PM
It's disgusting to me that some dirtbag would desecrate such an iconic card. Thank you, Rennie, for bringing this to light. At the end of the day, the only people who are looking out for collectors are fellow collectors.

Aquarian Sports Cards
03-27-2019, 04:04 PM
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

There's a play by David Mamet called The Water Engine. I recommend it highly.

Rhotchkiss
03-27-2019, 04:06 PM
We (Heritage) discussed this with the consignor and will have the card reviewed by SGC. As has been mentioned, until then, the card has been removed from the auction.

Peter

Class move by Heritage. Well done. It’s a shame, but this is 100% the right thing to do and I commend Heritage for taking quick and honorable action.

JollyElm
03-27-2019, 04:20 PM
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

darwinbulldog
03-27-2019, 04:37 PM
If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

It shouldn't be too hard to plug in human eye appeal ratings for a bunch of cards and have a computer extract the relevant variables (image contrast, color saturation, location of damage relative to location of the player's face, etc.) so that it can judge eye appeal well enough to pass a Net54 Turing test. Could even use fMRI data if we want to get really fancy, but I think a simple 1-10 scale from the humans would be sufficient.

chalupacollects
03-27-2019, 04:41 PM
Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

Well once that automated system proves itself the legacy TPG's product will start to eventually look to be less desirable… Who would want a card graded 9 that could've possibly have been viewed as doctored versus once that can be shown to be 100% free of that stigma?

Leon
03-27-2019, 04:57 PM
Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

And you have been suspended for bad registration information until it is rectified. Why are all of these bad registration sleuths from FL.?

barrysloate
03-27-2019, 05:24 PM
I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 05:55 PM
I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.

Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.

Leon
03-27-2019, 06:03 PM
Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is the OP is a criminal himself. And if he comes back with good registration information I will say I was wrong. No problemo. Actually, I hope I am wrong.

barrysloate
03-27-2019, 06:11 PM
Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.

I know Peter that it's all about the stuff, but that's too simple an answer. I'm happy to pay a dollar for a card that's worth a dollar, but I won't pay a dollar for a card that was worth twenty-five cents before the doctors got to it. There's a disconnect that doesn't make sense. Everybody wants to get a good value and not to get taken.

Throttlesteer
03-27-2019, 06:27 PM
Better to buy low-->mid grade. They aren't exempt from this nonsense, but it's less likely.

100backstroke
03-27-2019, 06:35 PM
There may be a lot of doctored cards in slabs. But I bet there are a lot more cards that are genuine and, for the most part, accurately graded. Can you imagine the state of the hobby right now if companies like SGC and PSA didn't exist and all we had were raw copies. Talk about the card doctors going to town and having a heyday, whew! I have seen the advent of slabbed cards come into being. I got together with a few other collectors back in the early 1990's and sent in my first PSA submission. Dang, I thought, this is cool, a step toward getting it right and not getting shystered. So I dove back into the hobby with long term investment in mind. Glad I did. But looking back, I highly doubt I would have ever put decent money into this hobby if all we had was raw. Yeah, some will get through, like no duh. But imho it is sure better than the old days.

Lorewalker
03-27-2019, 07:42 PM
There may be a lot of doctored cards in slabs. But I bet there are a lot more cards that are genuine and, for the most part, accurately graded. Can you imagine the state of the hobby right now if companies like SGC and PSA didn't exist and all we had were raw copies. Talk about the card doctors going to town and having a heyday, whew! I have seen the advent of slabbed cards come into being. I got together with a few other collectors back in the early 1990's and sent in my first PSA submission. Dang, I thought, this is cool, a step toward getting it right and not getting shystered. So I dove back into the hobby with long term investment in mind. Glad I did. But looking back, I highly doubt I would have ever put decent money into this hobby if all we had was raw. Yeah, some will get through, like no duh. But imho it is sure better than the old days.

I am guessing there are a lot more cards that have been messed with in slabs than we think. The slab gives a false sense of security so that we do not need to look for alterations. As buyers we can be less educated on how to spot those alterations and what to look for if we solely rely on what the grading companies tell us--the dumbing of the consumer. Once the card is slabbed it is harder to see alterations. So I am not sure that grading is benefiting end users as much as it was intending to.

How someone was able to cut up this Joe D card and get it past SGC does not sit right with me. If the work is getting THAT good it is a huge problem. Still curious how the OP figured it out. It is almost a needle in a haystack.

bigfish
03-27-2019, 08:42 PM
the hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in rea is the consignor to heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.


👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 09:12 PM
I am guessing there are a lot more cards that have been messed with in slabs than we think. The slab gives a false sense of security so that we do not need to look for alterations. As buyers we can be less educated on how to spot those alterations and what to look for if we solely rely on what the grading companies tell us--the dumbing of the consumer. Once the card is slabbed it is harder to see alterations. So I am not sure that grading is benefiting end users as much as it was intending to.

How someone was able to cut up this Joe D card and get it past SGC does not sit right with me. If the work is getting THAT good it is a huge problem. Still curious how the OP figured it out. It is almost a needle in a haystack.

OP obviously pays close attention to these cards, look at his name and avatar.

Forever Young
03-27-2019, 09:28 PM
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240251

Is t this the same card the op wanTed to buy?

boneheadandrube
03-27-2019, 10:03 PM
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240251

Is t this the same card the op wanTed to buy?

The card in that link appears to be the same as the card in the new 7 holder. The cert# on the 60 seems to be graded after this 84...? could the imperfections on the back be print anomalies on multiple Joe D's?

Bram99
03-27-2019, 11:19 PM
The card in that link appears to be the same as the card in the new 7 holder. The cert# on the 60 seems to be graded after this 84...? could the imperfections on the back be print anomalies on multiple Joe D's?

I like a good crime mystery but I am having difficulty understanding why the original poster would have been looking for this exact card back in 2017 and then almost a year later the same person finds that the card has been auctioned once since, then sliced up and re-graded. The fact that SGC missed the alteration is troubling. I don't know what to think about the rest of the story. We are part of a group of strange individuals.

Peter_Spaeth
03-27-2019, 11:24 PM
I like a good crime mystery but I am having difficulty understanding why the original poster would have been looking for this exact card back in 2017 and then almost a year later the same person finds that the card has been auctioned once since, then sliced up and re-graded. The fact that SGC missed the alteration is troubling. I don't know what to think about the rest of the story. We are part of a group of strange individuals.

I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?

Bram99
03-27-2019, 11:32 PM
I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?

I guess so. But why would this poster chase this card and post about it after the auctions...and why is Leon calling him a criminal? Weird story.

boneheadandrube
03-28-2019, 01:19 AM
I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?

To clarify: The cert# on the 60 in the original post is later than the cert# on the 84 in that link from 2017, meaning the 60 was graded after the 84. The 84 looks like the same card as the newer 7 everyone thinks is trimmed. it could be that the old 84 was re-holdered into the newer style 7. This would mean that the 60 isn't the same card as the 7 = 60 not trimmed into a 7.

The backs of the 60 and the 7 look very similar though. Do some Joe D. backs from that set have the same printing imperfections from a crappy printing plate?

Leon
03-28-2019, 09:10 AM
I guess so. But why would this poster chase this card and post about it after the auctions...and why is Leon calling him a criminal? Weird story.

I said my guess is he is a criminal, (fraud or troll.) I don't know for sure because he(or she) fraudulently registered on this forum. Some of this posters posts, as I read through them, reminded me of someone trolling. Maybe I am wrong but why would this poster email and say he is going to sue me (what does that make, about a thousand of those threats?) instead of giving good registration info?

.

timn1
03-28-2019, 11:52 AM
Are we talking about Renne, who has posted 92 times and been on the board for almost two years?

Tim

PS: I don't doubt what you're saying at all - just trying to keep up with this very strange story...


I said my guess is he is a criminal, (fraud or troll.) I don't know for sure because he(or she) fraudulently registered on this forum. Some of this posters posts, as I read through them, reminded me of someone trolling. Maybe I am wrong but why would this poster email and say he is going to sue me (what does that make, about a thousand of those threats?) instead of giving good registration info?

.

Leon
03-28-2019, 01:46 PM
Yes. Apparently you missed the fact that this exact same sort of thing happened recently with the T206 autograph forger thread. Manny (Setbuilder) is banned for bad registration info too, after 7 yrs and over 600 posts. It doesn't matter how long or how many posts someone has done, bad registration info always gets the boot. If it is corrected they are reinstated. Neither of these members wanted to give good contact info instead of staying banned...It is their call, not mine. I didn't have anything against either one, whomever they are.


Are we talking about Renne, who has posted 92 times and been on the board for almost two years?

Tim

PS: I don't doubt what you're saying at all - just trying to keep up with this very strange story...

timn1
03-28-2019, 09:34 PM
I agree, bad registration info is definitely grounds for banning- thanks-

T


Yes. Apparently you missed the fact that this exact same sort of thing happened recently with the T206 autograph forger thread. Manny (Setbuilder) is banned for bad registration info too, after 7 yrs and over 600 posts. It doesn't matter how long or how many posts someone has done, bad registration info always gets the boot. If it is corrected they are reinstated. Neither of these members wanted to give good contact info instead of staying banned...It is their call, not mine. I didn't have anything against either one, whomever they are.

Leon
03-28-2019, 10:44 PM
I agree, bad registration info is definitely grounds for banning- thanks-

T

Hi Tim
I denote a bit of sarcasm, but maybe not. At any rate I don't feel someone should be a allowed to out a fraudster while being a fraudster. Somewhere it is called a clean hands doctrine. In this forum world you have to have clean hands to combat fraud yourself. No fraudsters allowed to detect other fraudsters. And if nothing else their registrations are fraudulent. I watch too much Judge Judy. :) Wouldn't it be something if one of these really was Nash? One of the biggest fraudsters the hobby has ever known fighting crime. Sweet....

,

pokerplyr80
03-28-2019, 11:08 PM
Sounds reasonable Leon. Since the one rule around here is a name on posts with opinions it would be hard to enforce if people are registering with fake info.

It also seems very odd that the guy wanted to buy the card he outed as doctored. Can any of our site detectives determine what that's all about?

Peter_Spaeth
03-28-2019, 11:21 PM
Sounds reasonable Leon. Since the one rule around here is a name on posts with opinions it would be hard to enforce if people are registering with fake info.

It also seems very odd that the guy wanted to buy the card he outed as doctored. Can any of our site detectives determine what that's all about?

It was 2 years ago maybe he hadn't put it together at the time with the earlier iteration.

pokerplyr80
03-29-2019, 12:34 AM
It was 2 years ago maybe he hadn't put it together at the time with the earlier iteration.

It still seems very odd at best. How many posts have you seen that say "I want to buy this card" and have a picture of said card in the wtb listing? I recall maybe 1 or 2 where it was a previously owned card that held sentimental significance.

timn1
03-29-2019, 02:12 PM
No, I totally agree with you (you were thrown off by my being sincere for a change)- if someone is unwilling to provide their actual info to the moderator, then they should be banned-

Hi Tim
I denote a bit of sarcasm, but maybe not. At any rate I don't feel someone should be a allowed to out a fraudster while being a fraudster. Somewhere it is called a clean hands doctrine. In this forum world you have to have clean hands to combat fraud yourself. No fraudsters allowed to detect other fraudsters. And if nothing else their registrations are fraudulent. I watch too much Judge Judy. :) Wouldn't it be something if one of these really was Nash? One of the biggest fraudsters the hobby has ever known fighting crime. Sweet....

,