Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Inspired by a recent thread.
1. Maris only.
2. Belle only.
3. Both.
4. Neither.

[ullmandds]

I said belle only...not sure if roger deserves entry basically for “61?” Albert was consistently one of the most feared hitters for a while and put up solid numbers...despite being a d-bag...but thats never mattered for entry to a hall.

[packs]

I would put Roger in for his contributions to baseball over his career. Hitting those 61 homers was an incredible achievement.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

[rats60]

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[36GoudeyMan]

Could the HOF maybe have a wing for "Hall of Fame Achievements"? Something to honor players who did something(s) great but did not have an otherwise HOF-worthy career?

Maris' 61 homers comes to mind. Vander Meer's back-to-back No Hitters might qualify.

Dunno, just a thought....

[buymycards]

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

[steve B]

I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.

If it's a hall of fame, maybe both should be in. If it's a hall of stats, maybe not. As it is, it's a hall of stats over time, with a popularity poll at the end.

[packs]

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.


Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

He is talking about NOW, not then.

[Jim65]

I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

[TUM301]

My 2 cents, Maris`s argument reminds me somewhat of the Joe Namath one. Both players had some great years but overall, their career numbers didn`t make them automatic. However, both players had single historical moments that transcended their respective sports. Maris for historical "61" season and of course Joe and his Jets forever changing the NFL/AFL landscape defeating the Colts in the Super Bowl. For me, they are both Hall Of Fame Locks !

[darwinbulldog]

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

I daresay most people in New York don't know who he is. Clearly most people everywhere do not. The median age is like 27, and even in the U.S., which apart from Canada, is probably about the only country where more than 1% of people would know the name, < 20% of the people are old enough to remember the '61 season.

I have a feeling that most people know who Sam Harris is, given how frequently he's mentioned within my social group, but I also know that feeling is stupid and comes from a false consensus bias and that in reality there's no way even 10% of people know who he is. Baseball fans will feel the same about Roger Maris, Hank Greenberg, et al., but again, no way even 10% of people know who these guys are. In fact, no way even 10% of people know who Walter Johnson was, and he was the greatest pitcher in MLB history.

There are several times as many people who don't know who Donald Trump is (and he's likely the most famous person in the world at the moment) as who do know who Roger Maris was.

[Baseball Bob]

My recollection of Albert belle was that he was a foul-tempered, cantankerous and lazy baseball player who wasted a lot of his talent. The HOF does not usually take in characters like that.....

[packs]

Why do people keep bringing up 1961 as a baseline for knowing who Maris is? Did everyone forget McGwire and Sosa's chase? Who were they chasing? How about Bonds' pursuit in 2001? That was only 18 years ago.

[h2oya311]

When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

[Jason19th]

Neither are even close. Maris is not a hall of famer in any regard. He was a quiet decent and hardworking man who was elevated to something he was not because of two good seasons. Look at his numbers, he hit 260 with 1325 hits. He did not have a career where he was somehow blocked by circumstances. He was a regular when he was 22 and he retired at 33 after hitting around 250 with less then 13 homer per year for his last 4 years. If you look at his similarity scores per age he was Reggie Jackson for three years, but in his other years he was Larry Hisle, Pete incavigila, Jessie Barfield and Coby Rasmus.

There are a ton a guys who had two great years- Rubin Sierra, Jose Cansevo, George foster, dale murphy, Mickey Vernon, al Rosen, Denny McClain, etc who have career numbers as good as or better then Maris who are not even talked about for the hall

He should be applauded for 61 but not be elevated to the hall

[MooseDog]

I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.


This ^^^^^^^^

Seems we're moving more towards a Hall of (Advanced) Stats.

[jchcollins]

Belle to me is borderline with a short career. Maris is such a pull either way - clearly (along with Gil Hodges) one of the single most popular players who has not been enshrined yet. He did win 2 MVP's, but the arguments for the short peak are valid. I do buy into some of the "did a lot for baseball" arguments. Yes, the vote is as a player, but what are some of those long-forgotten execs enshrined for if not for "what they did for the game"? As a kid even in the 1980's when I first started collecting cards, Maris was extremely well known - way before the summer of '98 drama. Yes, it's for one event - but that one event was the single most cherished record in the entire history of the game. One that has since been tarnished I might add by all the things that have since come out about McGwire and Bonds. I think there are exceptions, and really it would not bother me if Roger gets elected one day.

[clydepepper]

I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

+1 - exactly as I see it.

[rats60]

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? If someone wasn't alive in 1961 or old enough to read the paper or remember, how would they know what it was like? In our neighborhood Maris cards were commons, sorry.

[ctownboy]

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

[packs]

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

So if he played for the Tigers and led the team to 3 straight ws, winning back to back mvps and hit 61 hr breaking Babe’s record... yes we would.
I also say that Murphy belongs... who was the best player in baseball in the early 80s with back to back mvps for a terrible team.

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

I kinda doubt he hits 61 without that guy who hit 4th behind him -- now what was his name -- Mickey something.

[bbcard1]

Here's the rub, IMO. Someone like Baines gets in and everyone yells "Compiler!" Guys who have a few great seasons are the other side of that coin, but seldom get recognized...maybe a few deadball guys like Chesboro or Walsh, but no one recently. I don't think it matters all that much, but I could live with both or neither, however, I would argue that Maris (and Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose) is a de facto Hall of Fame because he is more well-known than the vast majority of outfielders in the hall.

[Moonlight Graham]

Albert Belle + Steroids + Corked Bat = No HOF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Albert Belle + Steroids + Corked Bat = No HOF

I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

[jhs5120]

I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

Complete speculation: notorious for unprovoked crazy outbursts? Prominent slugger in the mid-late 1990’s? Career cut short by injury? Caught cheating on several occasions?

I mean...

[Peter_Spaeth]

When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

Where the hell were Vina's teammates on that play, I mean even if that's a legitimate albeit very hard hit, you can't just let that be.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

No for both

[drcy]

No to either, but Belle is more deserving, and it wouldn't offend by baseball senses if Belle was elected. In his prime, Belle had a Hall of Fame bat on the order of Jimmy Foxx or Lou Gehrig-- though had much publicized baggage including being a Terrell Owens-eque teammate.

[rats60]

I kinda doubt he hits 61 without that guy who hit 4th behind him -- now what was his name -- Mickey something.

There it is. What would Maris' numbers look like without Mantle protecting him? Outside of those 2-3 years they weren't very good and even those 3 years he hit .283 (career high), .269, .256. His best career numbers are Slugging%-223rd all time and OPS+ 220th all time.

[rats60]

I did not think Belle was linked with steroids.

One of his teammates said that all his bats were corked.

[packs]

There it is. What would Maris' numbers look like without Mantle protecting him? Outside of those 2-3 years they weren't very good and even those 3 years he hit .283 (career high), .269, .256. His best career numbers are Slugging%-223rd all time and OPS+ 220th all time.

I don't remember anyone else in front of Mantle hitting 61 homers. Can you point some people out who accomplished that seemingly easy feat?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

One of his teammates said that all his bats were corked.


That's crazy!

I believe Sports Science, or a show along those lines debunking the corked bat. Was a very interesting episode.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't remember anyone else in front of Mantle hitting 61 homers. Can you point some people out who accomplished that seemingly easy feat?

Mantle hit 3rd much of his career, no? In any event your point is a non sequitur, the question is did hitting in front of Mantle help Maris' HR totals and I think the answer is likely yes.

[58pinson]

A vote for Belle only. He's out in the cold simple because the sportswriters don't like him. Not that I blame them, he was a horse's ass.

On Roger, if he had stroked out at 59 I don't think we're having this poll. Nice player and I liked him alot, and that's coming from a lifetime Yankee hater.

[rhettyeakley]

I'm comfortable with neither being in but I think Belle is the more deserving of the two (even with the nostalgia factor going for Roger Maris). I wouldn't be overly oupset if Belle eventually gets in though.

Honestly, of the guys in that "limbo" state where they don't quite have the numbers to justify inclusion I'd rather see a Dale Murphy or someone like that get in before those two.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (132), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 57 (461), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 89 (205), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 22 (679), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (55th):
38.2 career WAR / 32.3 7yr-peak WAR / 35.2 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS

[BearBailey]

Both are no from me.

[Mountaineer1999]

I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (132), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 57 (461), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 89 (205), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 22 (679), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (55th):
38.2 career WAR / 32.3 7yr-peak WAR / 35.2 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 26):
71.4 career WAR / 42.1 7yr-peak WAR / 56.8 JAWS

I had to look up Romanticism but I agree.

[mantlefan]

Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

[Jim65]

Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

Thats the biggest problem with undeserving players like Baines getting in the HOF, people use it to justify other undeserving players getting in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Roger for sure. I mean if you're voting Harold Baines in, not including Maris is a travesty. Toss out the Roid guys and he stands alone at 61 homers in a season. That has to mean something.

He stood alone for decades and never got even half the vote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thats the biggest problem with undeserving players like Baines getting in the HOF, people use it to justify other undeserving players getting in.

Yep. The slippery slope argument. But as a great judge said, Just because there's a slippery slope, you don't have to ski it to the bottom.

[Mike D.]

My understanding that the Hall has a guideline (not a rule) that says a players entire career should be considered, not a single game or season.

I don't feel either player belongs. Lots of more deserving players who had more career value without being Baines-style compilers (and agree we should never use a universally panned selection to justify other bad picks).

[bnorth]

That's crazy!

I believe Sports Science, or a show along those lines debunking the corked bat. Was a very interesting episode.

They proved that with a machine swinging the bat it did not matter if it was corked or not. Now if a real live person hits the ball farther with a corked bat is a different story. Athletes are strange people and if they believe it helps, crazily just the extra confidence it gives the player leads to a real increase in #'s.

To the original question. They both deserve to be in the HOF as much as I do, only with paid admission to look at the greats of the game.:)

[tedzan]

I don't understand the votes in favor of Maris other than romanticism.


Then call me a "Roman-tic".....even though I'm a Greek :)

I'm probably one of the few here who are lucky to have seen Roger play (1957 - 1968). And you have had to see him play to appreciate his all-around performance.
Especially in 1961. Just like Mantle, Roger was a just a "country boy". The NY media was unreal that year to both of them. Mantle (after 10 years in NY) was able to
deal with the media. But to Roger, the media was unbearable.

Look, throwing out numbers (stats) does not really tell you the true story. And, given the fact that there are some already in the BB Hall Of Fame whose credentials
are less than Roger's......my vote is a resounding YES.

In 1965, Roger continued playing the game although he was suffering from a break in his hand that had been misdiagnosed. The best thing that happened to Roger
at that time in his career was being traded to the St Louis Cardinals.

And, if "numbers" are you game....check-out Roger's performance in the 1967 World Series !

That's it....I said my piece.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[familytoad]

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

[timn1]

Maris as a hofer is nonsense.
ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[Tabe]

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[pokerplyr80]

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

[Jim65]

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

[rats60]

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

[rats60]

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

[calvindog]

Wow, I just took a look at Belle’s numbers. I had no idea he was that consistently productive.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Baines: 2866 h, 1299 r, 384 hr, 1628 rbi, .289 ba
Edgar: 2247 h, 1219 r, 309 hr, 1261 rbi, .309 ba
From the time it was announced, people have been outraged by Baines induction. At the same time people have been outraged that it took Edgar this long to get in. Baines numbers are actually HOF range while Edgar’s fall very short. Maybe Baines can stop being the poster boy for undeserving HOF inductees. He may not belong but he belongs long before Edgar.


Thats the biggest problem with undeserving players like Baines getting in the HOF, people use it to justify other undeserving players getting in.

[Jim65]

Baines: 2866 h, 1299 r, 384 hr, 1628 rbi, .289 ba
Edgar: 2247 h, 1219 r, 309 hr, 1261 rbi, .309 ba
From the time it was announced, people have been outraged by Baines induction. At the same time people have been outraged that it took Edgar this long to get in. Baines numbers are actually HOF range while Edgar’s fall very short. Maybe Baines can stop being the poster boy for undeserving HOF inductees. He may not belong but he belongs long before Edgar.

Baines played almost 800 more games, so it should be expected he'd have more hits, hr and rbi's.

Baines 38.7 WAR, OPS+ 121, OPS 820
Edgar 68.7 WAR, OPS+ 147, OPS 933

Edgar was better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

No comparison between Belle and Carter.

Carter
19.6 career WAR / 21.5 7yr-peak WAR / 20.5 JAWS
Belle
40.1 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

[rats60]

No comparison between Belle and Carter.

Carter
19.6 career WAR / 21.5 7yr-peak WAR / 20.5 JAWS
Belle
40.1 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

I was replying to someone using RBIs, which is a flawed stat on its own, to make a HOF case for Belle. Bob Johnson had 8 100 RBI seasons + 92 & 93 RBI seasons. He was an 8 time all star. He had a similarly short career with equal peak to Belle (higher WAR and JAWS). Johnson also had a career OPS+ of 139 which is only slightly less than Belle's 144. Neither Johnson nor Carter are close to HOF. They also weren't known cheaters. When dealing with the Veteran's Committee, it is better to be a nice guy like Baines than a jerk like Belle. Corking Bats + being a jerk = no HOF when your career was marginal (low career WAR & low 7 year peak WAR).

[familytoad]

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[Fred]

Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle was a force when he played. He was only 33 when he left baseball. Calling him the Barry Sanders of baseball may be a stretch, but he did some damage when he played.

What if Roger only had 59 HRs in 1961? Would there be a discussion about it? From what I've read Roger and Joey were probably opposites when it comes to "public relations" but when you look at just the stats and remove all other considerations, how do these two stack up?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

[glynparson]

I said both but I am for a large hall of fame.

[rats60]

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

It is because of position. Trammell played one of the 2 most difficult positions in the game (SS & C) where defense is the primary concern and offense is rare, only Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan put up strong offensive numbers at the position over a full career. Trammell was slighly above the average for his position for a HOFer.

Whitaker on the other hand played a much easier position where HOFers have put up more offense (Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Carew, Jackie) and his career numbers are slightly below average for his position for a HOFer.

In particular, he had a low 7 year peak (as did Maris & Belle) while Trammell had a much higher peak along with WS MVP and AL MVP 2nd place. Whitaker only received MVP votes once, finishing 8th. He should have received more support from HOF voters, but he really isn't a strong candidate. He is behind Bobby Grich and Chase Utley among weak 2b candidates, both of which never had strong individual seasons (higher than 7th or 8th in MVP voting).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ripken was a SS through age 35. Not exactly shabby offensive numbers.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Hodges had 7 in a row not in off the top of my head.

[rats60]

ripken was a ss through age 35. Not exactly shabby offensive numbers.

ops+ 112.

[Peter_Spaeth]

95.9 war

[pokerplyr80]

I was replying to someone using RBIs, which is a flawed stat on its own, to make a HOF case for Belle. Bob Johnson had 8 100 RBI seasons + 92 & 93 RBI seasons. He was an 8 time all star. He had a similarly short career with equal peak to Belle (higher WAR and JAWS). Johnson also had a career OPS+ of 139 which is only slightly less than Belle's 144. Neither Johnson nor Carter are close to HOF. They also weren't known cheaters. When dealing with the Veteran's Committee, it is better to be a nice guy like Baines than a jerk like Belle. Corking Bats + being a jerk = no HOF when your career was marginal (low career WAR & low 7 year peak WAR).

The RBIs were what stood out when I googled his stats. Others were impressive as well. They may be a flawed stat according to some new modern metric, but I will take home runs, batting average, and RBIs over war, jaws, or whatever else some millenials will come up with next.

[Peter_Spaeth]

RBIs are quite dependent on how good the guys are hitting in front of you, so I wouldn't place TOO much stock in it. Pujols kept up fairly high RBI totals despite clearly going downhill because he hit behind Trout, for example. The good thing about the newer metrics is that they tend to neutralize for team effects, as well as park effects.

[Jim65]

I was stubborn to accept modern stats but they really are a better way to compare players across different leagues, eras, ballparks, etc.

The problem I still have is some cannot be calculated without computers. Back in the day, every kid knew how to calculate BA, Slugging and even ERA. Todays WAR and OPS+? Forget it.

[pokerplyr80]

I get the idea behind the modern metrics. But they have their flaws as well and I think people put too much stock into them. From what I understand people can't even decide on which war calculation is best. I will stick with what I know until I'm convinced otherwise.

[bnorth]

I get the idea behind the modern metrics. But they have their flaws as well and I think people put too much stock into them. From what I understand people can't even decide on which war calculation is best. I will stick with what I know until I'm convinced otherwise.

I like them for comparing 2 people that played at the same time and played the same position. Otherwise i find them completely worthless and hilariously flawed.

[tonyo]

When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

no for both, BTW there are some pretty funny comments under that you tube video

[russkcpa]

Roger Maris -YES
MLB must also recognize his 61 HR's as the single season record
Maris was a great man and a great athlete

[88horsepower]

For me, it's a no go for either. I love Maris and think his contributions to the history of the game are remarkable, but his career didn't provide enough overall to garner enshrinement. Belle could have been had he not been such a jerk and struggled with health-related issues late. He was truly a feared hitter.

[Tabe]

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

Bob Johnson isn't a good comp because Johnson played well into old age. Belle, who put up bigger numbers, retired due to injury.

Johnson also gets a big bump to metrics because he was one of the few decent players to not lose any time to WW2. Of course he stood out in comparison to the likes of Pete Gray.

[Peter_Spaeth]

7/63/.265 in 1943 and he takes 5th in MVP voting. Ouch.

Interesting stats though. He started at age 27. One imagines he would be on more people's radar screens with a few more good early years.

[Huysmans]

I get the whole career thing...
but like Paul Henderson who scored the most famous goal in history (he is not in the Hockey Hall of Fame), Maris achieved something only a few players have been able to - ensuring his legacy, and he was extremely famous at some point....

Maybe these institutions should be called the Hall's of Career Stats and Longevity

[calvindog]

I was stubborn to accept modern stats but they really are a better way to compare players across different leagues, eras, ballparks, etc.
The problem I still have is some cannot be calculated without computers. Back in the day, every kid knew how to calculate BA, Slugging and even ERA. Todays WAR and OPS+? Forget it.

I love this post.

[sycks22]

Maris has more of an argument than Belle. Belle was a juicer who hit 380 hrs, those were a dime a dozen in the 90's / 2000's. Carlos Delgado had 100 more hrs and hit .280 and didn't even get 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot a couple years back.

[BuckiGuy]

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

[BuckiGuy]

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

If Joe Carter played in New York, Chicago, or some other major market for the moajority of his career instead of in front of 8,000 fans at old Cleveland Municiple Stadium he would absolutely be in. If he played in the ESPN and Fox Sports era of today, he’d be in.

[frankbmd]

this. As for belle, i grew up watch8ng him play at the jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While i’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, mike mussina will be in this year, and fred mcgriff probably next year.

347205

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.:D

[darwinbulldog]

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.


Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

Based on his peak years I might put Schilling ahead of Mussina.

[Touch'EmAll]

It is called the Hall of Fame. So shouldn't fame be recognized? Maris is unquestionable famous. He held for a very long time one of the most famous, remarkable and most prestigious records in all of sports. Absolutely Maris, yes! And they put in Harold Baines ?!?! Unbelievable

[clydepepper]

347205

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.:D



McGriff v Baines - contrast and compare...

'Talk amongst yourselves'


.

[Tabe]

Maris has more of an argument than Belle. Belle was a juicer who hit 380 hrs, those were a dime a dozen in the 90's / 2000's. Carlos Delgado had 100 more hrs and hit .280 and didn't even get 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot a couple years back.

In 500 more games. Again, Belle retired because of injury not because of age or ineptitude. If Belle had been able to play a full career, he'd have hit 600+.

[brian1961]

It is called the Hall of Fame. So shouldn't fame be recognized? Maris is unquestionable famous. He held for a very long time one of the most famous, remarkable and most prestigious records in all of sports. Absolutely Maris, yes! And they put in Harold Baines ?!?! Unbelievable

100backstroke, I could not possibly agree more with you. "Hall of Fame", not Hall of Fifteen Years of Remarkable Stats. Be that as it may, fifteen years of remarkable stats are what the BBWA has gone by to enshrine. The Old Timers Committee passed over Roger Maris, too. I won't insinuate a "what do they know?" line. I will not insinuate, but rather sharply accuse both groups of hating the Yankees in general. Roger Maris was a complete player whose peak was indeed short, but like the great Hack Wilson, accomplished some mighty terrific accomplishments for a couple years. I know, a couple years does not make a HOF career. You're right. However, the 61 in 61 ALONE should get Mr. Roger Eugene Maris elected to the MLB Hall of Fame. I do not care what anyone else says to the contrary. The man achieved more fame in 1961 ALONE than half the players on the plaques. I prize my Roger Maris cards and coins regardless of whether he is ever begrudged the honor due him. Many never understood the man or his value.

I'm Brian1961 because of my first name and the year I began collecting cards. The correlation is precisely what you might expect that to be. I am what I am and it is what it is.

Honestly, whether Mr. Maris is elected to the HOF is not as important to me as when MLB will finally quit dragging their big feet in the mud to overrule who genuinely holds the MLB single season home run record. We all know Mark McGwire finally confessed to taking steroids in his hot pursuit of Roger's hard-earned record. Barry Bonds steadfastly insists he broke the record and it's his, and you can forget Ruth, Maris, and McGwire! Somehow, the powers that be could not test the big braggart to see if he was legit. Bonds certainly did not offer his body to be tested, and defied everyone who accused him, believing himself to be "untouchable". Unfortunately for Barry, the many photos of him before, and during, his late career rampage tell a decidedly decisive picture of the man's euphoric numbers.

I know, I know, this is about Roger and Albert. I guess I just had to remind everyone of Roger's home run record that was initially broken 20 years ago last year, again and again through 2001 or whatever (by then I had tuned out!), but to the point, should rightfully be acknowledged as never having been legitimately broken.

Now that we're at 2019, I wonder if Bonds's guilt can ever be conclusively proven.

If youse guys don't want to go down that road, just skip this post.

--- Brian Powell

[ctownboy]

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David

[packs]

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David


This perspective is mystifying to me. What do you have to say about Babe Ruth's record then? He did it with the lively ball and without pitchers pitching underhanded and batters calling for a slow or fast pitch like they did in 1871. Give me a break.

Why anyone would try to take away from what Maris did is beyond my understanding. The man's feat was remarkable and likely will never be replicated by a clean player.

[ctownboy]

My point is, people are pointing to steroid abusers and saying they shouldn't be in the HOF and their records shouldn't count because they cheated (I agree). Yet, Maris is given a pass because of one year and one number while OTHER players who ALSO had a great 1961 season and who had BETTER career numbers than Maris aren't considered for the HOF.

Again look at Norm Cash's stats compared to Maris in 1961---

Cash had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS+ and almost as many rbi's and total bases. As for his career, Cash also had a longer career and put up bigger numbers than Maris yet Cash is in no discussion about the HOF.

David

[packs]

My point is, people are pointing to steroid abusers and saying they shouldn't be in the HOF and their records shouldn't count because they cheated (I agree). Yet, Maris is given a pass because of one year and one number while OTHER players who ALSO had a great 1961 season and who had BETTER career numbers than Maris aren't considered for the HOF.

Again look at Norm Cash's stats compared to Maris in 1961---

Cash had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS+ and almost as many rbi's and total bases. As for his career, Cash also had a longer career and put up bigger numbers than Maris yet Cash is in no discussion about the HOF.

David


I honestly have no idea why Norm Cash enters into any discussion about Roger Maris' career or achievement.

[ctownboy]

Because Norm Cash played in the same league in the same year as Maris and batted against the same watered down pitching and look at his numbers compared to Maris. Cash had an overall better offensive year than Maris and had an overall better career than Maris yet Maris is the one getting the HOF love in this thread and on these boards while Cash isn't even being talked about.

I am comparing apples to apples and other than the 61, Maris doesn't stack up against even Norm Cash for 1961 or for his entire career.

If Maris had hit 59 home runs in 1961 then Cash most likely would have been the MVP because of the numbers he put up.

David

[Peter_Spaeth]

I honestly have no idea why Norm Cash enters into any discussion about Roger Maris' career or achievement.

Because almost all baseball discussions are relative.

[Touch'EmAll]

Take a look at 1961 - the league avg. BA was .258 - that doesn't seem so high as to call the pitching watered down. Lots of years the BA has been higher.

Maris won 2 MVP awards. Are there any other multiple MVP award winners not in HOF ?

[packs]

Because Norm Cash played in the same league in the same year as Maris and batted against the same watered down pitching and look at his numbers compared to Maris. Cash had an overall better offensive year than Maris and had an overall better career than Maris yet Maris is the one getting the HOF love in this thread and on these boards while Cash isn't even being talked about.

I am comparing apples to apples and other than the 61, Maris doesn't stack up against even Norm Cash for 1961 or for his entire career.

If Maris had hit 59 home runs in 1961 then Cash most likely would have been the MVP because of the numbers he put up.

David


I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Take a look at 1961 - the league avg. BA was .258 - that doesn't seem so high as to call the pitching watered down. Lots of years the BA has been higher.

Maris won 2 MVP awards. Are there any other multiple MVP award winners not in HOF ?

Murphy for one.

[packs]

Juan Gonzalez also.

[ejharrington]

Based on his peak years I might put Schilling ahead of Mussina.

Emphatic +1. Schilling, more than any other player (including Pedro, Manny and Papi), turned the Red Sox from a loser franchise to a winner.

Sincerely,

Mystique and Aura

[brianp-beme]

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

Jim Gentile did have one heck of a 1961 season...46 home runs, 141 rbi, .302 batting average, .646 slugging percentage.

Brian

[ctownboy]

Watered down pitching allowed Maris to have a career year, Cash to have a career year and Gentile to have a career year. Yet Maris is the only one being talked about as being a Hall Of Famer.

If you are going to give credit for Maris having a big year when the pitching was watered down then you also have to give credit to the other guys and if you do that then Maris had a worse year than the other two except for the home run total.

David

[JollyElm]

347430
"Hey, Norm...[chew...chew]...how much you wanna bet that in 2019 people are going to have a very contentious argument about you and me?"

[rats60]

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

Maris would never win the MVP today. Mark Mcgwire didn't win MVP when he hit 70 Hrs. It is also why players aren't elected to the HoF because they broke one record or had one good season. Mantle should have won MVP, he led the AL in WAR with 10.5. Cash was 2nd with 9.2. Maris was tied for 5th with 6.9.

Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award.

[packs]

Maris would never win the MVP today. Mark Mcgwire didn't win MVP when he hit 70 Hrs. It is also why players aren't elected to the HoF because they broke one record or had one good season. Mantle should have won MVP, he led the AL in WAR with 10.5. Cash was 2nd with 9.2. Maris was tied for 5th with 6.9.

Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award.


Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

[Jim65]

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

His .400 season had something to do with it but Terry was a lifetime .341 hitter so his great season wasn't the only reason. Maris' supporters want him in the HOF based on 1 great season.

[packs]

His .400 season had something to do with it but Terry was a lifetime .341 hitter so his great season wasn't the only reason. Maris' supporters want him in the HOF based on 1 great season.

Are you sure that's not why Terry got in? He's ranked as the number 23rd first baseman of all time, behind John Olerud. His batting average looks nice but his advanced stats put him behind all other HOF first basemen:

54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS
Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are you sure that's not why Terry got in? He's ranked as the number 23rd first baseman of all time, behind John Olerud. His batting average looks nice but his advanced stats put him behind all other HOF first basemen:

54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS
Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS

Right, but at the time he got in, there were no advanced stats so the focus probably was more on his BA. Sisler is another guy whose advanced stats really lag behind his BA and perhaps public perception.

[packs]

Right, but at the time he got in, there were no advanced stats so the focus probably was more on his BA.

Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?

I suspect some of each, but that without the career the one season would not have been sufficient.

[darwinbulldog]

Everyone with 5000+ ABs and a .340+ BA is in the Hall. Doesn't matter what their best season was.

edited to add: The best career batting average of players with 5000 or more at-bats who haven't been inducted is .324 (Babe Herman), followed by Helton and Cabrera at .316.

[packs]

Everyone with 5000+ ABs and a .340+ BA is in the Hall. Doesn't matter what their best season was.

edited to add: The best career batting average of players with 5000 or more at-bats who haven't been inducted is .324 (Babe Herman), followed by Helton and Cabrera at .316.

Do you think if Babe Herman hit 7 points higher in 1930 and finished with a 400 average as opposed to 393 he would be in the HOF?

[darwinbulldog]

But still ending up with a .324 career average? Good question. I guess I'd put it around a 50-60% chance, but I would contrast that with the probability that Terry would have gotten in had his .400 season been a .393 instead and his career average still been .341. I'd still put his odds at better than 95%.

[frankbmd]

But still ending up with a .324 career average? Good question. I guess I'd put it around a 50-60% chance, but I would contrast that with the probability that Terry would have gotten in had his .400 season been a .393 instead and his career average still been .341. I'd still put his odds at better than 95%.

1930 was the year that the entire NL batted over .300 with an ERA of 4.97.

Terry was a rung or two above Herman for the year and for their careers, but the hitting in 1930 makes Lefty Grove’s pitching seem surreal. Terry and Herman not so much.

AL batting numbers in 1930 were a bit less than the NL, but Grove was a good part of the reason for the difference.;)

[tedzan]

As of today...…

107 for Maris

117 not for Maris

Maris is gaining !


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1961CamelCigYankeesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[bnorth]

As of today...…

107 for Maris

117 not for Maris

Maris is gaining !


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1961CamelCigYankeesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Wouldn't it be 107 for and 156 against? The for only Joey would be a vote against Roger. Then Roger gets the both votes.

Those old cigarette ads are cool.

[darwinbulldog]

He was also a dead ringer for Baron von Richthofen. That should count for something.

[Huysmans]

He was also a dead ringer for Baron von Richthofen. That should count for something.

Richthofen is definitely Hall of Fame material! That goes without saying. :D

[Touch'EmAll]

I am still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor with the Harold Baines induction. Hall of Fame - says so right there in black and white...FAME. Not one person alive can rightfully argue Roger Maris was not famous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Richthofen is definitely Hall of Fame material! That goes without saying. :D

Yeah he went 80 for 81.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

I am still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor with the Harold Baines induction. Hall of Fame - says so right there in black and white...FAME. Not one person alive can rightfully argue Roger Maris was not famous.

See post #5.

[Huysmans]

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

The argument is whether or not he WAS EVER famous.... not whether or not he is famous now. By that logic, how many people or even casual baseball fans today could tell you who Mathewson or Ward or Anson are? Probably close to zero... so does that mean they were never famous? Of course not.
And people in the West, South or Midwest certainly knew who Maris was in 1961... unless they lived under a rock.

You can also add that most players with little fame do not have movies made after them.

[rats60]

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

Rico Petrocelli 1969 was right up there with Rosen.

[Touch'EmAll]

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

[packs]

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.

[Huysmans]

Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.

Nope
The Cy Young has been awarded how many times? To how many different pitchers? At least a dozen different players have won it multiple times....
Hitting 61 Home runs or more? Now how many players are in THAT list?
His 31 win-season is especially impressive... I'll give you that.
But wins by pitchers carry nowhere near the fame of hitting home runs...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think anyone identified McLain as a guy who fell off the cliff in the other thread, but he would be a very good example.

[Forever Young]

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

Agreed. Maris deserves to be in the HOF.

[tedzan]

DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1961CamelCigYankeesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Huysmans]

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.

While I agree Ted that the Clipper's record will probably never be broken... Its possible.
What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages.

[tedzan]

While I agree Ted that the Clipper's record will probably never be broken... Its possible.
What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages.


Brent

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ?
So, Joe had "been there, done that".

When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying
to achieve this record.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[darwinbulldog]

Barring any major changes in how the game is played (which is a little unrealistic I'll admit), there's about a 5% chance DiMaggio's record is broken in the next 100 years. That's extrapolating from Bill James's calculations (https://www.billjamesonline.com/article140/) of the annual probabilities. For Cy Young I'd guess it's lower than 1% but not much lower. Imagine this scenario...

A pitcher with peak ability somewhat better than, say, Pedro Martinez also has, via good genes and mechanics and improvements in athletic training, the longevity of Nolan Ryan and is fortunate enough to pitch for a team that, on average across his career, also has the best lineup in his league. Let's say also that his career starts ten years from now when every team has a 2-3 inning starter and a 1 inning closer, and that this guy's job is to pitch innings 3-8 every fifth day or 4-8 every fourth day. He pitches for 25 years and also happens to be a slightly more skilled pitcher than the best ones we've seen so far. Such a pitcher would average better than 20 wins a year (i.e., > 500 career Ws).

The odds that someone will break Hoss Radbourn's single season mark are much lower, and as I've mentioned before, anyone who can somehow win 61 games in a year at some future date stands an excellent chance of winning at least 512 in his career, whereas even a pitcher who somehow ends up with 512 career wins is unlikely to have had any 50 (let alone 60) win seasons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ?
So, Joe had "been there, done that".

When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying
to achieve this record.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

He literally struck out less in a season a couple of times than some guys now strike out in a week. His record, at least in present times, is safe.

[packs]

He literally struck out less in a season a couple of times than some guys now strike out in a week. His record, at least in present times, is safe.

But his WAR was only good for 123rd all time. It was even lower than Norm Ca.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

But his WAR was only good for 123rd all time. It was even lower than Norm Ca.....

Yeah I saw that it's hard to believe there are 122 better seasons out there than DiMaggio 1941 I don't know WAR well enough to know where the disconnect is there.

[bnorth]

Yeah I saw that it's hard to believe there are 122 better seasons out there than DiMaggio 1941 I don't know WAR well enough to know where the disconnect is there.

On a interesting note Carl Yastrzemski had the 3rd best single season WAR in 1967. I am not sure with even using the terms theoretical and hypothetical that season can be the 3rd best ever.:confused:

[Touch'EmAll]

To break Ryan's 7 no-hitters, Wow ! Now we are talking some amazing incredible other-worldly pitcher. Probably have to do a DNA test just to make sure he is from Planet Earth.

[drcy]

"All models are wrong, but some are useful"-- British statistician George E. P. Box

[darwinbulldog]

Yeah I saw that it's hard to believe there are 122 better seasons out there than DiMaggio 1941 I don't know WAR well enough to know where the disconnect is there.

Hitting streaks don't add value apart from the hits themselves though, and it doesn't even rank in the top 500 seasons in terms of his hit total.

[frankbmd]

"All models are wrong, but some are useful"-- British statistician George E. P. Box

George Box is noted for his invention of the Box Score as well.;)

[darwinbulldog]

George Box is noted for his invention of the Box Score as well.;)

As well as his lunches, socials, and jellyfish.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1961CamelCigYankeesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Damn it, just picked up my first pack of camels in over 15 years... was only a matter of time. Totally blaming it on the catchy advertising.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hitting streaks don't add value apart from the hits themselves though, and it doesn't even rank in the top 500 seasons in terms of his hit total.

30 HR
125 RBI
.357 BA
,440 OBP
.643 SLG
1.083 OPS

Who said anything about the streak?

[darwinbulldog]

30 HR
125 RBI
.357 BA
,440 OBP
.643 SLG
1.083 OPS

Who said anything about the streak?

Can't believe I'm dignifying this with a response, but here I am, so congratulations.

1) At least five of us just in this thread, including yourself.
2) It is literally, as I suspect you already know, the reason DiMaggio's 1941 season (as opposed to any of the hundreds of other 30+ HR/125+ RBI seasons) is being discussed here.
3) Zero, yes zero, of the very statistics you just cited above rank in the top 100. Most aren't even close. For that matter, none of them even ranks as DiMaggio's personal best.

[rats60]

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

Not any more. It's only the 7th highest total. It's not like there was a lot of interest when Stanton hit 59 in 2017 or Ryan Howard hit 58 in 2006. If Maris couldn't get elected 25 years ago, there is zero chance he gets in in the future.

[Touch'EmAll]

So, now 7th place only behind the steroid junkies diminishes Maris' old record?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a great single season record and I do think those who hit more are tainted. But it's still a single season, and we evaluate HOFers based on their career. And by that measure Maris is not even close.

[Touch'EmAll]

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

They certainly have exhibits for these things. But you would have to change the whole paradigm to elect players based on your criteria.

[Touch'EmAll]

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an American History museum. It serves as the central point for the study of the history of baseball in the United States. The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

This is taken directly from the Hall itself, not my opinion.

Now my opinion - what Maris did was quite historical, most definitely should be worth preserving, the season he had was indeed most excellent, and having him in would connect generations.

[rats60]

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an American History museum. It serves as the central point for the study of the history of baseball in the United States. The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

This is taken directly from the Hall itself, not my opinion.

Now my opinion - what Maris did was quite historical, most definitely should be worth preserving, the season he had was indeed most excellent, and having him in would connect generations.

I think you are confusing the Hall of Fame with the players enshrined with plaques in the plaque room. Pete Rose will never be enshrined, but his all time hit record is recognized in the museum. Barry Bonds will never be enshrined, but his HR records are recognized in the museum. Roger Maris will never be enshrined, but his HR record was recognized in the museum until it was broken. Just because a player doesn't get elected to the HOF doesn't mean he won't have a place in the museum outside the plaque room.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have never been to the Hall, don't know about they layout. If they want to keep him out of the Plaque room, I guess ok. But they should always have some sort of exhibit recognizing Maris because he fits in perfectly with the Hall's motto. He belongs in the non-plaque room area more than most. I am ok with that.

[bigfanNY]

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice. The teams he played on won pennents 7 times 5 with Yankees twice with Cards. He was an all star 4 years. He had 3 World series Rings. And he played in an era with many dominant pitchers. You have to consider when a player played as well as his numbers. How many other 2 time MVP's not in the hall of fame? Maris Juan Gonzalez and Albert Pujols.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice. The teams he played on won pennents 7 times 5 with Yankees twice with Cards. He was an all star 4 years. He had 3 World series Rings. And he played in an era with many dominant pitchers. You have to consider when a player played as well as his numbers. How many other 2 time MVP's not in the hall of fame? Maris Juan Gonzalez and Albert Pujols.

Murphy. Bonds. And since you named Pujols who isn't eligible, Cabrera.

How many dominant pitchers were in the AL during Maris' career, by the way? Ford doesn't count. Koufax Gibson Marichal Perry Drysdale all the other league. Bunning?

[rats60]

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice.

He was card #1 in 1962 after setting the HR record, but when was the other one? Andy Pafko and Dusty Rhodes were also #1, so that isn't a good reason. As has been said earlier, he had 3 good seasons and that isn't enough. If it was, Lefty O'Doul would have been in long ago.

[bigfanNY]

My bad in 1961 after Also winning his first MVP award Roger was card Number 2 Dick Groat Who was NL MVP was Card Number 1. In 1960 Number 1 was Cy Young award winner Early Wynn. my point being that Topps recognized Maris 2 years in a row.
And Peter for completeness Mike Trout has also won 2 MVP awards and is not in Hall of fame. And AL pitchers won as many Cy young awards during Maris's Career as NL pitchers. But yes NL was deep in pitching talent. But during Rogers two years in NL his batting average did not drop dramatically.
The point of my OP was that Maris had a significant Major leauge career. He was not a one year wonder.
I was born in 1961 so don't remember that HR race. But I remember Sosa Mcgwire race and what it did for baseball. So if 61 and Mantle and Maris was anything ( My dad said it was bigger) like that then Maybe Maris deserves to be in the hall of fame for his contribution to the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My bad in 1961 after Also winning his first MVP award Roger was card Number 2 Dick Groat Who was NL MVP was Card Number 1. In 1960 Number 1 was Cy Young award winner Early Wynn. my point being that Topps recognized Maris 2 years in a row.
And Peter for completeness Mike Trout has also won 2 MVP awards and is not in Hall of fame. And AL pitchers won as many Cy young awards during Maris's Career as NL pitchers. But yes NL was deep in pitching talent. But during Rogers two years in NL his batting average did not drop dramatically.
The point of my OP was that Maris had a significant Major leauge career. He was not a one year wonder.
I was born in 1961 so don't remember that HR race. But I remember Sosa Mcgwire race and what it did for baseball. So if 61 and Mantle and Maris was anything ( My dad said it was bigger) like that then Maybe Maris deserves to be in the hall of fame for his contribution to the game.

Nobody here is taking away from the 61HR season or his other good years, you don't need to justify those.

[drcy]

Nobody here is taking away from the 61HR season or his other good years, you don't need to justify those.

Maris doesn't belong in the Hall as a member. End of story. And neither does Sosa or McGwire.

[Marckus99]

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

[bigfanNY]

Well the Hall of Fame justifies Tommy McCarthy due to his significant contributions to the game. So it is a real a contributing factor when consideration for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[SteveMitchell]

This argument in favor of Albert Belle being of Hall of Fame caliber is made with the understanding that Albert was telling the truth when he said, in answer to whether or not he used steroids: “I never did,” said Belle. “I didn’t need to. All you have to do is check the trainers’ weight charts. Every year I’d come to camp weighing 225 to 230 and end the season at about 215 to 220.”

The Cleveland franchise has been in the American League for well over a century. According to Baseball-Reference.com's Cleveland Indians Top 10 Career Batting Leaders, there are 39 positive categories (actually there are 43 but for this purpose, strikeouts, outs made, double plays grounded into, caught stealing have been eliminated). My argument is that after more than a century of play, if you find your name multiple times in the Top 10 of a positive category, you probably belong in the Hall of Fame. Of the 39 positive categories, Albert Bell (despite playing only the equivalent of 6 full seasons in Cleveland) made the Top Ten 16 times.

If you wish to check out this out, for more details see: https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/leaders_bat.shtml

Finally, a favorable word for a man I was privileged to know for nearly a decade - Earl Averill, another Cleveland great. Of these 39 categories, Earl Averill placed in the Top Ten 29 times and was the absolute leader 9 of those times. Behind Averill's 9 Number One rankings follow: Tris Speaker (7), Jim Thome (6), Larry Lajoie (4), Joe Jackson (3), Kenny Lofton (2), Manny Ramierz (2) and 7 others including 3 Hall of Famers (tied one apiece).

[Huysmans]

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

Surpassing Babe Ruth's coveted home run record while the captivated baseball world held it's breath... you can't get any more boring than that.
While Belle was consistent throughout his career... what was exciting about it? When he was caught cheating with a corked bat in 1994?

[skil55voy]

I was 5 years old growing up in Detroit when Roger broke Babe's record. None of the adults around me wanted Roger to break the record. I can remember laying in front of our Emerson black and white TV and seeing the scroll across the bottom of the screen announcing Roger's 56th homer, his 57th 58th etc.. as he hit them. Even though most people were against him, he did it anyway. He became a hero to me because he did it anyway. I don't think anybody was ever in a zone like he was that year. I read an article where Norm Cash said that his 1961 season was like no other. He said that everything he hit just seemed to drop in. Don't care about the Hall of Fame. Roger had one of the great years in baseball, surpassing a bigger than life legend. Just a working guy who swung the bat like nothing anybody had ever seen. 159 hits - 61 were home runs. Incredible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was 5 years old growing up in Detroit when Roger broke Babe's record. None of the adults around me wanted Roger to break the record. I can remember laying in front of our Emerson black and white TV and seeing the scroll across the bottom of the screen announcing Roger's 56th homer, his 57th 58th etc.. as he hit them. Even though most people were against him, he did it anyway. He became a hero to me because he did it anyway. I don't think anybody was ever in a zone like he was that year. I read an article where Norm Cash said that his 1961 season was like no other. He said that everything he hit just seemed to drop in. Don't care about the Hall of Fame. Roger had one of the great years in baseball, surpassing a bigger than life legend. Just a working guy who swung the bat like nothing anybody had ever seen. 159 hits - 61 were home runs. Incredible.

You don't think Babe Ruth was in a zone when he hit a mere 60 (with a much higher batting average)? Or Hornsby when he hit .424 or whatever it was? Yes it was a great achievement, but let's not be too hyperbolic about it.

[packs]

You don't think Babe Ruth was in a zone when he hit a mere 60 (with a much higher batting average)? Or Hornsby when he hit .424 or whatever it was? Yes it was a great achievement, but let's not be too hyperbolic about it.

I think the difference is nobody was upset when Ruth hit 60. The public probably loved it. Almost no one wanted Maris to hit 61. His achievement was in the face of ridiculous odds and against the wishes of a public who was mostly against him. The closer Maris got to the record the worse the abuse was. I highly doubt Ruth got too many death threats on his way to 60.

If you want to put the public's feeling toward Maris into perspective, only 23,000 people showed up to see if he would break the record and the commissioner didn't even attend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the difference is nobody was upset when Ruth hit 60. The public probably loved it. Almost no one wanted Maris to hit 61. His achievement was in the face of ridiculous odds and against the wishes of a public who was mostly against him. The closer Maris got to the record the worse the abuse was. I highly doubt Ruth got too many death threats on his way to 60.

If you want to put the public's feeling toward Maris into perspective, only 23,000 people showed up to see if he would break the record and the commissioner didn't even attend.

OK, but he's playing baseball, not fighting in a battle with live rounds. Let's not overdramatize it?

[packs]

OK, but he's playing baseball, not fighting in a battle with live rounds. Let's not overdramatize it?

I can only speak for myself, but if I'm trying to accomplish something and strangers are telling me they'll kill me or my family, it might make it harder for me to accomplish what I'm doing.

[brian1961]

Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes.:D --- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=brian1961;1863671]Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes.:D --- Brian Powell[/QUOTE

frickin' out of line -- pun intended? :D

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=brian1961;1863671]Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes.:D --- Brian Powell[/QUOTE

frickin' out of line -- pun intended? :D

couldn't afford to stop laughing. :D

[brian1961]

"frickin' out of line"

Pun intended?

But of course, my friends!:D ---Brian Powell