Players who fell off a cliff

[Peter_Spaeth]

Has anyone had a worse dropoff than Norm Cash from .361 in 1961 to .243 the following year?

[ALBB]

What about that Tito Francona in early 60s... ? very high .300's...then low next year ?

[SetBuilder]

As a Marlins fan, Chris Coghlan came to mind. ROY in 2009 with a .321 average and 162 hits in 128 games.

Then he dropped off a cliff. Never the same hitter.

[bmattioli]

Jason Bay comes to mind: Redsox to Mets free agent

2009 36 Hrs 119 Rbi

2010 6 Hrs 47 Rbi

[Tim Kindler]

Sadly, Ed Delehanty........wait, that was a bridge.

[riggs336]

Bob "Hurricane" Hazle. .403 in 1957. .211 in 1958.

[barrysloate]

If memory serves, Steve Stone followed his Cy Young 25-7 season with a 4-7 season. Doing this without looking it up.

[glchen]

Bryce Harper. 10.0 WAR in 2015. 1.5 WAR in 2016.

[Sean]

Mark Fydrich had a great rookie year, then nothing.

[rats60]

Zoilo Versalles. MVP at 25 to .249 to .200 to .196 to .236 and out of the league at 29.

[sycks22]

Sidd Finch had a lot of hype in spring training, never delivered.

[egri]

Dave Ferriss won 50 games in his first two seasons, then had arm troubles and was never the same.

[oldjudge]

Gary Sanchez--.278 in 2017 to .186 in 2018, with less power. On the other hand, he did increase his number of passed balls.

[irishdenny]

Sidd Finch had a lot of hype in spring training, never delivered.

No Roids? : )

[KCRfan1]

Super Joe Charboneau!

[irishdenny]

Has anyone had a worse dropoff than Norm Cash from .361 in 1961 to .243 the following year?

Curious, Are We Talkin' jus Hitting?

or can someone like General Custer Count?

[Section103]

Sadly, Ed Delehanty........wait, that was a bridge.

Nice.

[callou2131]

Chris Davis by far. Went from an MVP candidate to the worst season by a batter in history. His defense has also fallen off

[iwantitiwinit]

Brady Anderson 50 hr's in 1996, 18 in 1997.

[Wite3]

Shoeless Joe Jackson...
1920 Batted .382 120 RBIs, 105 Runs, 20 triples...
1921 nothing!

Joshua

[Bagwell-1994]

Brady Anderson comes to mind. I mean, he was a respectable player before and after 1996. But his 1996 stats of .297/.396/.637 with 50 home runs are so crazily better than anything else he ever did in any season it's a true oddity.

Luis Gonzalez 2001 is similar. 57 homers and a .688 slg.? Just.... how? To go from a doubles slap hitter with the Astros to THAT with the Diamondbacks.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Hxcmilkshake]

Brady Anderson comes to mind. I mean, he was a respectable player before and after 1996. But his 1996 stats of .297/.396/.637 with 50 home runs are so crazily better than anything else he ever did in any season it's a true oddity.

Luis Gonzalez 2001 is similar. 57 homers and a .688 slg.? Just.... how? To go from a doubles slap hitter with the Astros to THAT with the Diamondbacks.

Sent from my SM-N950U using TapatalkWell, it would be odd if not for steroids....

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ccre]

Sadly, Ed Delehanty........wait, that was a bridge. Nice one!

[Donscards]

Has anyone had a worse dropoff than Norm Cash from .361 in 1961 to .243 the following year?

Norm Cash used a corked bat for the whole year, guess in 1962, the cork came out

[Peter_Spaeth]

Norm Cash used a corked bat for the whole year, guess in 1962, the cork came out

Better that than the table leg he took to the plate as the final out in a Nolan Ryan no-hitter, saying it would be as good as anything else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEboSkPUgUo

[scooter729]

Nick Esasky had 30 HR (5th in AL) and 108 RBI (3rd in AL) in 1989 with Boston. Ended up getting struck with vertigo, played in 9 games in 1990 and his career was over.

[packs]

Grady Sizemore was a 30-30 player at age 25. Couldn't stay on the field after.

[lumberjack]

Well, Roy Campanella never dropped off of a cliff, but the last six or so years of his career were more like a rollercoaster with 100 point jumps/dips in batting averages. Mickey Vernon...the guy would hit .260, win a batting title, then hit .260 again. And these were people who could really play.

Chuck Klein, like Campy a HOFer, went from being this astounding hitter for six years to being a, what?... nice hitter (this isn't a complement) with no power after he left the Phillies. Of course, leaving Baker Bowl didn't help much.

Norm Cash? He put up those good numbers the first year of expansion in the AL. Tiger Stadium was built for left-handed power hitters (jeez, Lou Whitaker could hit homers in Detroit). I always figured the ball club wanted Cash to sacrifice average for power.

lumberjack

[Cliff Bowman]

Steve Blass Disease

[The-Cardfather]

I know that we're talking baseball here........

But NFL player Junior Seau immediately comes to mind.

[BLongley]

How about Denny McLain:

31-6
24-9

AL Cy Young both years, also MVP in 1968.

Then...

3-5
10-22

and then another year or so of playing then out of baseball at 28 yrs old....and a criminal...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I know that we're talking baseball here........

But NFL player Junior Seau immediately comes to mind.

I don't understand this comment at all. Seau had a long productive career.

[SAllen2556]

Way too many Tigers on this list! But, sadly, I'd add Dave Rozema. Rookie pitcher of the year in '78, went 15-7 with 3.09 ERA, pitched 218 innings with 16 complete games and 5.7 WAR, 8th in Cy Young voting. Then, boom! Played through '86 but never came close to his rookie year.

[darwinbulldog]

Little before my time, but Tommy Bond. Best player in baseball in the late 1870s. Worse than replacement level in the early 1880s (had trouble getting his pitches to the plate from 50' away). Retired at age 28.

[scooter729]

I don't understand this comment at all. Seau had a long productive career.

A couple of years before he committed suicide, Seau once drove his car off a cliff. In retrospect, it was probably an attempted suicide.

[callou2131]

I don't understand this comment at all. Seau had a long productive career.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-junior-seau-injured-car-accident-tmz-reports-it-fo-2010oct18-story.html

[packs]

Roberto Alomar is still a HOFer but man did he fall off a cliff as soon as he left Cleveland. Hit 336, finished 4th in MVP voting and was out of the game three years later.

[vansaad]

Sadly, Ed Delehanty........wait, that was a bridge.

Too soon?

[Jim65]

How about Rick Ankiel? 2nd in ROY to not being to throw the ball over the plate.

[mybuddyinc]

Little before my time, but Tommy Bond. Best player in baseball in the late 1870s. Worse than replacement level in the early 1880s (had trouble getting his pitches to the plate from 50' away). Retired at age 28.

Another "rule change" victim: Ross Barnes:

1876 (fair/foul rule last year) -- .404 (lead NL)

1877 (fair/foul rule abolished) -- .272

[judsonhamlin]

Tony Horton comes to mind as well.

[h2oya311]

Sidd Finch had a lot of hype in spring training, never delivered.

Haha! That's awesome! Will never forget that one...

[Forever Young]

Has anyone had a worse dropoff than Norm Cash from .361 in 1961 to .243 the following year?

As a kid, I remember Dale Murphy went from THE BEST to he can’t make contact with the ball seemingly overnight. I was confused. From 87-88 there was a huge drop off and never GREAT again.

Also Donny Baseball... but prob can’t include him due to back Injuries being the reason.

Ps: to PS- not sure why i quoted you... thought i was just responding tinthread on phone. Ooops

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Can’t forget The Bird. 19-9 record as a rookie. 29-19 career.

[GaryPassamonte]

In Barnes defense, he also had the ague in 1877 and was never physically the same in his remaining career.

[ctownboy]

Yes, Gary, when you get the ague it really takes the Pl out of you. :)

David

[steve B]

Well, it would be odd if not for steroids....

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


George Foster was somewhat similar to Anderson, and no talk of steroids.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

George Foster was somewhat similar to Anderson, and no talk of steroids.

I don't think that's valid. George was a power hitter who had one especially amazing year. Anderson was a doubles hitter who hit 50 and only had two other seasons over 20 (and barely at that, 21 and 24) His 50 was bookended by 16 and 18. George had seasons of 52, 40, 34, 29 and 6 other seasons over 20. and hit about 140 more for his career in nearly identical plate appearances. Some anomalies are a little more anomalous than others!

You've got other guys who hit 40 and never hit 20 like Dave Johnson and Rico Petrocelli. You even have Yaz who had 3 seasons over 40 and NONE in the 30's which is just weird. Strange things happen but it's pretty commonly accepted that Brady and Luis Gonzalez (despite his protestations) juiced.

[Peter_Spaeth]

George Foster was somewhat similar to Anderson, and no talk of steroids.

More of a downhill slope than a cliff.

[CurtisFlood]

What about Buzz Arlett? Hit over .300 and slugged away. Never played in the majors again. Of course he was hung over most of the time and really wasn't very interested in playing in the field.

The wags had a poem for him:

Buzz Arlett weighs half a ton,

He cannot field, he cannot run!

But when he swings his trusty wood,

The pellet leaves the neighborhood.

He was out in the field after a night of celebrating and Walter Boom Boom Beck was having a rough day on the mound. Hit after hit shot into the outfield with Arlett misplaying many of them. Finally Beck could take it no longer. He fired a ball that hit the right field boards and caromed back to Arlett, who surprisingly fielded the ball cleanly and fired a strike into second.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How about a guy who jumped UP a cliff. Puckett -- first two full seasons, 0 and 4 HR, third year, 31.

[JollyElm]

Yoenis Céspedes.
In 2015, he basically singlehandedly got the Mets into the World Series, as his half a season with them was superhuman, but that cliff came quickly in Game 1 of The Series and he's been pulling a Thelma & Louise ever since.

[Sean]

third year, 31.

And he hit leadoff the entire year. Never drew walks but hit for power, and the Twins batted him leadoff. :rolleyes:

[Jim65]

How about a guy who jumped UP a cliff. Puckett -- first two full seasons, 0 and 4 HR, third year, 31.

Or Davey Johnson who jumped up the cliff then fell right back off

1972- 5 HR
1973- 43 HR
1974- 15 HR

[rats60]

Or Davey Johnson who jumped up the cliff then fell right back off

1972- 5 HR
1973- 43 HR
1974- 15 HR

In fairness to Davey, he was in Baltimore in 72 and the Braves moved the fences back in 74 as Aaron was breaking Ruth's HR record. Darrell Evans also had a pretty big drop off from 41 to 25 then 22 with the fences moved back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In fairness to Davey, he was in Baltimore in 72 and the Braves moved the fences back in 74 as Aaron was breaking Ruth's HR record. Darrell Evans also had a pretty big drop off from 41 to 25 then 22 with the fences moved back.

Hank went from 40 to 20. Part of that I guess was age.

[Leon]

I think our newest member, Owner 3, might fall off of a cliff soon.

[CurtisFlood]

I think our newest member, Owner 3, might fall off of a cliff soon.

Give him a little nudge Leon!:D

[Leon]

Give him a little nudge Leon!:D

I am getting a bit exasperated. On this case much more time will be given, people have lives. (well, not me, but others)

edited to add, after phone tag with the member mentioned, we are all good for now. Please carry on....

[A2000]

Mark Davis went from Cy Young to sayonara.

[grainsley]

Eddie Gaedel. Luckily, it was a short drop, and he was fine.

[PiratesWS1979]

Mark Davis went from Cy Young to sayonara.

Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.

[packs]

Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.

I think you should first refer to Mark Davis' stat page. He never threw more innings after the award than the season he won the award. He also started a combined 14 games out of his next 208 appearances.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve Stone lost 7 games in each of 1980 and 1981. Only difference was, he won 25 one year and 4 the next. And after that, he literally was gone. A very good example of Cy Young to Sayonara.

[pokerplyr80]

Maris didn't do much after 61.

[Tabe]

Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.

He was a long reliever and spot starter in 1990 because he bombed as the closer. In his first 15 appearances, he was 0-2 with four blown saves and a 7.24 ERA. He had just one more save in 1990 after that.

KC didn't pay $10m to a Cy Young Award-winning closer to bring him in as a long reliever and spot starter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maris didn't do much after 61.

33/100 the next year not exactly nothing.

[packs]

Physical and emotional toll of that season has to be taken into account too. Maris is only 30 years old here in 1965. He looks withered beyond his years to me:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/894/42277125862_177e08158e.jpg

[pokerplyr80]

33/100 the next year not exactly nothing.

Yea still a big drop. And he never got close to even those numbers in 62 again.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.

Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Joey has better numbers but Roger has 2 mvp, 3 ws and 61. Belle has none of those. Advantage: Roger.

Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joey has better numbers but Roger has 2 mvp, 3 ws and 61. Belle has none of those. Advantage: Roger.

The WS are irrelevant IMO. Billy Martin played in a lot of WS too, and Gene Woodling.

[packs]

I'm sitting on a minor nest egg if Joey ever DOES get elected:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4712/39748873231_f8fa35f47a.jpg

[Jim65]

Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.

Agree, personalities aside, Belle was the much better hitter than Maris.

[A2000]

I'm sitting on a minor nest egg if Joey ever DOES get elected:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4712/39748873231_f8fa35f47a.jpg

Hey if Harold Baines can get in...:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hey if Harold Baines can get in...:D

Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.

[rats60]

Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

[packs]

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Belle's stats are due to injury though. He should have enough merit in what he did while he could play to get in. He was a much better hitter than Jim Rice or Andre Dawson, who are probably the most similar to him in terms of why they got in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

[rats60]

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

Belle .933 OPS to .815 for Murphy and almost as many HR. .830 for Mattingly.

I would not even think about considering Maris who at most had 4 top years, and really only 2.

[ooo-ribay]

Anyone (other than Bonds) who the Giants have extended lately.

[Tabe]

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.


The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Eggoman]

Plus Belle was "VERY DIFFICULT" to like! It's NOT supposed to matter, but...

[Peter_Spaeth]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[packs]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

[Peter_Spaeth]

1994. 36/101/.357/1.152 in just 106 games. I'd say that year he was the best player in baseball, and damn close to it quite a few other years, if this is somehow the test.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Johan and Gooden have fair cases - edge to Johan. Oswalt has none. Oswalt has no CY. Gooden and Johan each have 1 20 win season. All HOVG.


Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

Win an mvp.

[packs]

Win an mvp.

Someone wins the MVP every year. They are not all HOFers.

[brian1961]

A name that should be mentioned is Bill James, the hurler for the 1914 World Series champion Boston Braves. He went 26-7 with them that great year. Bill also won 2 games in the Series, and must have been Manager Johnny Evers's ace, for they sweep the A's in what was their swan song season of that era.

Mr. James followed with 5-4, for what I am sure is a plausible reason, but sadly, a long fall from the cliff. Thereafter, no wins in MLB.

Returning to Roger Maris, while he never returned to the season numbers and performance of 1960-61, a major cause was the near-constant emotional and mental abuse heaped upon the poor man from the kazillion Yankee fans who believed Roger did not deserve to be the single season home run king. In tandem were the writers, who almost to a man wrote him off as surly, grouchy, and ill-fit to carry the Babe's jockstrap. In his memoirs, Roger Maris wrote that the worst season he felt all this was not 1961, but 1962. Thereafter, I imagine the drive to hit homers the way Yankee management had traded for him to do so had left him entirely.

His trade to the Cardinals was a win-win for the Cards and Roger. The Cardinals' management and moreover, all their loyal and non-front running fans took the beleaguered and tormented Roger into their huge hearts. The Rajah's regal World Series performance was a fitting climax to his first season in St. Loo, and no doubt Yank fans were gnashing their teeth about it, while bashing whoever they had turned upon once Mr. Maris left them.....Joe Pepitone perhaps?

Anyway, it took Yank management a long time to realize what they had had in Roger Maris, and I salute George Steinbrenner for his tenacious efforts and humility to bring Roger back to the Stadium, and lavish long overdue praise, nice treatment, and build a monument for him in their exclusive little park for such better Bombers. In my mind, Roger Maris is still MLB's single season home run king.

I'll leave it alone. ---Brian Powell

[akleinb611]

Actually, the degree to which the hostile atmosphere of the New York press and public was responsible for Maris' decline has long been exaggerated. Yes, he was treated badly by the press, but that changed from abuse due to his not being Babe Ruth (totally unfair, of course), to abuse over the fact that his performance declined catastrophically (unfortunate, but entirely normal - it would have been amazing if he DIDN'T get some grief over that).

The REASON for the decline is rarely talked about, given that all people remember now is how mean the newspapers were. The real reason is that Maris broke his hand in 1963, and the crude x-ray technology of the time completely missed the hairline fracture. He wasn't properly diagnosed for several years, by which time he'd been playing with a broken/improperly healed hand for several years, which ultimately caused permanent damage.

I'm at work so I don't have access to all the details, but that's the real cause of his decline - injury, not emotional abuse. It's not as interesting a story, which is why it's not remembered that way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Boston press ravaged Ted Williams for most of his career. He hit .345. I don't think Maris' on field play was due to his treatment by the press.

[brian1961]

Actually, the degree to which the hostile atmosphere of the New York press and public was responsible for Maris' decline has long been exaggerated. Yes, he was treated badly by the press, but that changed from abuse due to his not being Babe Ruth (totally unfair, of course), to abuse over the fact that his performance declined catastrophically (unfortunate, but entirely normal - it would have been amazing if he DIDN'T get some grief over that).

The REASON for the decline is rarely talked about, given that all people remember now is how mean the newspapers were. The real reason is that Maris broke his hand in 1963, and the crude x-ray technology of the time completely missed the hairline fracture. He wasn't properly diagnosed for several years, by which time he'd been playing with a broken/improperly healed hand for several years, which ultimately caused permanent damage.

I'm at work so I don't have access to all the details, but that's the real cause of his decline - injury, not emotional abuse. It's not as interesting a story, which is why it's not remembered that way.

--Well said, Alan, though I do stand by what I wrote. However, I was not aware of how long Roger had to suffer with that broken hand. I recall reading how he would tell Yank management about it, and they felt he was just making excuses or not trying hard enough. He probably had permanently damaged it by the time it was properly diagnosed and dealt with, so he could never use his full power I would think. Regardless, good post, bro. Best regards. ---Brian Powell

[akleinb611]

Brian:

I don't disagree with you regarding the case for Maris' enshrinement. He had several good years as an up-and-comer, two outstanding MVP seasons, and another (1962) that wasn't bad either. That's not enough. If he hadn't broken his hand, had played three or four more years, and had put in one or two more top quality seasons, would he be at least an arguable HOF candidate? Sure. But he didn't. It's fine to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but this is much too speculative.

Maris' career reminds me in some ways of the late Al Rosen, who had a ten-year career with Cleveland, was a consistently very fine batter and third baseman, won an MVP and could have won another, and who was forced to retire very suddenly at 31 or 32 when he injured his hand quite badly, bad enough so that he felt there was no question that he couldn't play anymore. If he'd been able to play another four or five years, with only one or two more at the level he'd shown previously, he'd be a very strong candidate. But he didn't, and he's just short of inclining me to speculate. Rosen is my working example of a player who's just about as good a player that you can be without being a Hall of Famer.

[clydepepper]

I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.



I sure wish I knew how to spell blassfulmy,



.

[Den*nis O*Brien]

.... the sad story of Roger Maris that aKlein and Brian shared. He was a great player and person in my opinion. But going back to the "Cliff" theme I would like to submit Bo Belinsky. It seems that the last image I have of him is sitting in his tomato red Cadillac with his arm around Mamie Van Doren after his no hitter. Then.......a career W & L of 28-51. He is sadly deceased.

[Peter_Spaeth]

.... the sad story of Roger Maris that aKlein and Brian shared. He was a great player and person in my opinion. But going back to the "Cliff" theme I would like to submit Bo Belinsky. It seems that the last image I have of him is sitting in his tomato red Cadillac with his arm around Mamie Van Doren after his no hitter. Then.......a career W & L of 28-51. He is sadly deceased.

Bo never had even a single good season though did he?

Tragic story anyhow. Read this.
http://www.lamag.com/longform/fallen-angel-1/

[Tabe]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

His surly disposition undoubtedly cost him MVP votes. The guy finished EIGHTH one year while hitting .328 with 49 homers and 152 RBI. Led the league in slugging, OPS, OPS+ and total bases. EIGHTH. Finished 2nd behind Mo Vaughn in 1995 despite: higher batting average (.317 vs .300), more homers (50 vs 39), same RBI (126), higher OBP (.401 vs .388), higher slugging (.690 vs .575), higher OPS (1.091 vs .963), higher WAR (7.0 vs 4.3).

Belle played 10 full seasons and parts of two more. AVERAGED 40 homers every 162 games. OPS+ of 144. Those are ridiculous, high-level, elite numbers.

Nope, he didn't win an MVP or World Series. But he outperformed guys who did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

[egri]

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

Charlie Silvera was in six, won five, and spent all but one inning of it on the bench.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

It’s not absurd. It’s part of the player’s accomplishments and in some cases may make a difference. For example, when Curt Schilling eventually gets inducted it will be largely because of his 3 ws rings.

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It’s not absurd. It’s part of the player’s accomplishments and in some cases may make a difference. For example, when Curt Schilling eventually gets inducted it will be largely because of his 3 ws rings.

Maris hit .217 in the WS even with his stellar 1967 performance. He was well under .200 for NY. I agree if you play particularly well, it helps, but not just being on a winning team. Schilling was 11-2 2.23 postseason. Yes, that will help him, but it's the performance, not the rings.

[ooo-ribay]

It appears “players who fell off a cliff” has turned into a HOF debate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It appears “players who fell off a cliff” has turned into a HOF debate.

True. Created a separate poll just now.

[sycks22]

I think people are overlooking Johnny Vander Meer. He only had 2 no hitters in a row. Seems pretty easy to do. Maintaining that couldn't have been that hard.

[brian1961]

Though these pitchers did not by any means fall off a cliff per se, this trio of twirlers reached some amazing heights, then never came close afterwards:

Big Ed Walsh (Chicago White Sox)

Smoky Joe Wood (Boston Red Sox)

Colby Jack Coombs (Philadelphia Athletics)

One made the Hall, but all three of the above were outstanding for a time. As with the case for Roger Maris, as someone else astutely observed, it's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Super Stats.

I really don't care anymore if Roger Maris is enshrined; he was a great Yankee and player to me, and he's enshrined in my heart. I had to pay a lot of dough for my favorite Maris piece in the late 80s. I never regretted it one second. Guess I should say what it is---a 1962 JELL-O complete unfolded box in gem mint condition. A few years ago I was the winning bidder in a LOVE OF THE GAME auction for a scarce 1962 Gehl's Gold Mine Ice Cream Roger Maris, graded 6.5 by PSA. Paid almost twice what I paid for the Maris box, and love it.

Now, this has nothing to do with Rog's career falling off a cliff, but to underscore the fact that some of us love non-HOFers that mean something to us, and will treasure them more than most of the guys who are enshrined in Cooperstown.

Nice cardboard hot stove league discussion!:D --- Brian Powell

[frankbmd]

Charlie Silvera was in six, won five, and spent all but one inning of it on the bench.



If he hadn't played one inning, his bench would be shrine-worthy.

[dabigyankeeman]

DONTRELLE WILLIS

Came up with Marlins and looked great. But:

First 4 years in baseball: 58-39 w/l record
Next 5 years in baseball: 14-30 w/l record

And he was gone.

[darwinbulldog]

DONTRELLE WILLIS

Came up with Marlins and looked great. But:

First 4 years in baseball: 58-39 w/l record
Next 5 years in baseball: 14-30 w/l record

And he was gone.

Good bat too.

[packs]

Yankee fans will always remember the sting of Chien-Ming Wang too. What could have been.....

[dabigyankeeman]

Good bat too.

And a really neat personality, a good guy. This was a shame how he lost it and never got it back.

[darwinbulldog]

And a really neat personality, a good guy. This was a shame how he lost it and never got it back.

Yep.