UPDATED 5/16: BEWARE PAYPAL CHARGEBACKS! If you sell on eBay, read this...

[bounce]

UPDATE: Go to post 70 to see final resolution and summary, case ended in my favor so I did get the money. Long wait, but fortunately it's resolved now.


I don't always comment on things like this, but this one takes the cake and I feel obligated to warn everyone who may be selling anything online to be very wary.

I've currently got a dispute going at Paypal for a card I sold in January.

I sold a card on eBay on January 2nd.
Buyer paid on January 2nd, I received funds via Paypal.
I shipped priority mail, insured, signature confirmation on January 3rd.
*NOTE: Interesting fact on this, USPS shows all that. Paypal doesn't show the signature confirmation service, more on that in a moment.
On January 5th, USPS left a notice with the buyer.
On January 9th, buyer signed for the card.
Shortly thereafter, I was given positive feedback on eBay from the buyer.

Buyer has subsequently gone to their "financial institution", who has then gone to Paypal and filed a claim against me for "Refund not received" in middle of February.

Paypal initially put the funds on hold, but earlier this week took them permanently from my account.

First, they said that it wasn't covered under buyer protection because it didn't have signature required. I've proven to them that it did, and had included that information when I first responded to the case. Today I sent them the pdf showing the signature from the USPS records.

Once that was resolved, they've now said that it still doesn't matter because the seller protection DOES NOT cover "refund not received".

I have shown Paypal that there was NO REQUEST for refund on their site (which they agree with), and that NO REQUEST for refund was made on eBay either (which they agree with).

I also spoke to eBay today, who said they're not involved any more because Paypal handles the money. They acknowledged no request for refund had been made of me on eBay, and they acknowledged I had received positive feedback on the transaction.

As it stands at this moment, Paypal is telling me that the decision is in the hands of the buyer's "financial institution", who of course I don't know who that is and neither eBay or Paypal will give me that information. I asked them both, and both said they couldn't provide it even if they had it (which eBay says they do not).

Paypal of course says they are fighting for me as their customer, but have no intention of covering me under seller protection because again that DOES NOT include "Refund not received". Why they didn't tell the other "financial institution" that no request for refund has been submitted, and no evidence of return of the item has been demonstrated, before taking the funds out of my Paypal account I have no idea.

The Paypal representative also told me the following, I'm paraphrasing but they're pretty close to quotes.
1) Federal law allows buyers to dispute charges with their financial institutions (which I certainly understand), and there's nothing Paypal can really do about that other than provide what evidence I may give them of a valid sale (which I've already done).

2) The only way I can prevent risk of chargeback is to accept cash. Yes, a Paypal representative said that out loud to me today on the phone.

3) If the financial institution sides with their customer (what do you think they're otherwise going to do? I asked my Paypal rep), my only recourse at that point is to try and recover the card back through small claims court.


I'll update this more as this unfolds, but as of right now it looks like I'm out $1,425.

Felt obligated to share, because at this point I have zero expectation of getting the card or my money back, and the implications of this for any other item I sell through eBay has me seriously considering if my internet days as a seller are permanently at an end. I had not really investigated the payment options that I can accept on eBay, but I definitely will need to look into that now if this is how Paypal is going to defend me - which is to say basically they aren't. Why wouldn't everyone just dispute charges for "Refund not received" through their credit card company if it's really this easy to get Paypal to give seller's funds back over.

[mattsey9]

Sorry to hear this. What is the Ebay ID of the buyer so I can block them?

[commishbob]

That's ridiculous. To be out that much without much recourse is a shame. Every time I think 'this might be a good time to sell some stuff on eBay' I read stories like this and wonder if I should even try.

[Huck]

Sorry, to hear that you might be out close to $1,500. I have heard similar stories which is one reason (fees being another), I have been reluctant to start selling on ebay. Granted it is a pain, but wouldn't having two accounts from two separate institutions work? Ebay buyers pay into account A. Once paid funds arrive to Account A the funds are wired to Account B. Paypal can't take $$ that is not there.

[Throttlesteer]

There are many folks that make their living with Ebay and PayPal. There are also a small percentage of people that consistently find new ways of gaming the system and screwing people over.

Getting this persons EBay ID wouldn't help much. They probably have a bunch of them.

[DeanH3]

That sucks is a complete understatement. I do appreciate you sharing this as I just went and cancelled a fairly expensive eBay listing. I want no part of that mess.

[Lorewalker]

That is one messed up situation. Sorry to hear this. Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story? It might provide you with something that you could use against him with paypal and his financial institution.

Many things here do not make sense but has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made? It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.

Having paypal, who has no skin in the game, fight on a seller's behalf is a bit scary. They certainly do not sound like they are advocating too hard for you given the proof you have provided them. The financial institution should accept that as this being a clear case of fraud on the buyer's part.

And yeah as a public service to other sellers who are reading this, you might want to let them know who this dbag is.

Good luck,
Chase

[bounce]

I'm currently trying to understand from Paypal what their exact process is for evaluating a "refund not received" claim.

Obviously they don't require a request for refund, since they've already agreed with me that one has not been made.

Again, they put the funds on hold initially, which is something I've had happen before - that's not unusual. What I find disturbing and bizarre is their decision to go ahead and take the funds permanently out of my account, after I had provided them all the information above and spoke to them on the phone TWICE. The only other piece was the signature of the buyer, which was sent today after it was already too late. Regardless, according to Paypal that part didn't even matter because no one says I didn't deliver the item.

So again - someone please help me understand what the Paypal process is for determining whether or not a request for refund is valid, when no such request was ever made, but I still provided evidence indicating that not only was the item delivered, the buyer was also satisfied with it at least enough to leave me positive feedback.

Believe me, I'm going to continue pressing this with Paypal because they screwed up and took money out of my account when there was no valid reason to do so, particularly considering that I was actively engaged and replying to the claim request.

[glchen]

I think you need to escalate this and talk to someone else at Paypal. How can you give a refund if you did not even receive your original item back? The buyer needs to prove that they went you the card back with the tracking number and the signature confirmation. Otherwise, it's just mail fraud.

[bounce]

Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story?

has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made?

It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.



Yes, reached out to buyer via eBay message and the email address I got from Paypal. No reply to either as of right now. I also have a phone number, have not tried that yet.

Paypal was made aware that no request for refund had been made to me either via eBay or Paypal, which their reps have confirmed with me every time we've spoken. eBay rep also has confirmed no request for refund. This is one of my key questions - so if you know that a request for refund was not made, why would you agree to issue the refund? Even more, why would you agree to do that without requiring that return of the item when there is clear evidence that the item was indeed delivered and signed for?

Yes, buyer went through his "financial institution", Paypal has confirmed that is who was requesting return of the funds but they obviously won't tell me which institution that is. Paypal putting the funds on hold during the dispute process is normal, and while irritating it's not a big deal - people should get their opportunities to reply. However, subsequently deciding to remove the funds from me permanently despite the lack of the refund request, as well as in light of all the other information I provided showing delivery, signature, etc., and then not requiring the item to at least be returned is what is utterly confusing.

As if that's not enough, the case is still OPEN within Paypal. That's the only thing that gives me any hope, but then again why would the "financial institution" just back their customer if Paypal already gave them the money back? From their perspective, isn't it really Paypal's problem now? And while Paypal is "fighting for me", they're really just passing the buck to me to try and figure out some other way to collect since they gave the money back already.

[chalupacollects]

Yes you might want to start a conversation with your local post office about mail fraud and let the buyer know...

Also posting then name here would help other sellers out.. And if your are on BO they have a section dedicated to this stuff...

[D. Bergin]

Yes, post the ID and then send another message to the buyer telling them you are going to open a mail fraud case through the Post Office. That should at least get them thinking on either getting your money, or your card back.

[Gusturd]

And good old eBay won't even let you leave honest feedback.

[Jim F]

Most people do not realize that there is a 180 day period that the buyer can ask for a refund through Paypal.
PayPal changed this to 180 days because that's what the credit card companies offer and paypal can't really fight that. Even when the refund period was 45 days(I believe). They could not do anything about a credit card charge back.
All sellers should be aware that they are actually on the hook for 6 months. That's alot of time for people like this to screw you.

[rjackson44]

I will never give paypal a penny or ever sell anything in fee bay.i use a debit card to pay ,,paypal is a horror show ,,sell here b.s.t ,,.. never had one issue.net 54 rocks

[GeoPoto]

I'm not a lawyer, but the blatant injustice contained in PayPal's decision to renege on the receipt of funds notice that they knew you relied on, makes it hard to accept. PayPal abetted the buyer's fraudulent grasping of both the card and the cash. Since PayPal could easily confirm the available facts with eBay, they had no basis for accepting the dishonest claim.

[CTDean]

Bypass the local Postmaster and file a fraud complaint online or by phone with the US Postal Inspectors. They will forward a copy of your complaint to the Postmaster at the Post Office where your package was received. The fraud will get investigated, and you will get a response to your complaint. Once you file the complaint online, I would call the Postmaster at the package receiving end to give him a heads up about the PI fraud complaint. He may have received other complaints relating to this same person. The Postal Inspectors resolved two cases for me very quickly, but in both of mine the delivery person failed to scan the package which was insured.
It would help us if we had an ebay ID for the buyer. I would also google the buyers address to see if it is located at a mail receiving business.

[AGuinness]

I understand if the OP is hesitant to post the eBay ID of this fraudster. However, just a quick glance at a Clean Sweep catalogue and I can find names and full addresses of reneggers from previous auctions.
If it were me, I would let the buyer know that I will post the eBay ID, name and zip code on message boards with the backstory if he/she does not return the card or ensure full payment. I don't even qualify as a small-time seller on eBay, but I'll surely block this buyer, as I'm sure many others here would do. I'd explain that this person's reputation in the hobby can't be worth $1,400 and that it would behoove them to make this right.
And if they still didn't do so, I'd post it all.
This loophole is pretty awful and it's hard to believe Paypal would let it happen this way. GL with it all!

[Lorewalker]

Yes, reached out to buyer via eBay message and the email address I got from Paypal. No reply to either as of right now. I also have a phone number, have not tried that yet.

Paypal was made aware that no request for refund had been made to me either via eBay or Paypal, which their reps have confirmed with me every time we've spoken. eBay rep also has confirmed no request for refund. This is one of my key questions - so if you know that a request for refund was not made, why would you agree to issue the refund? Even more, why would you agree to do that without requiring that return of the item when there is clear evidence that the item was indeed delivered and signed for?

Yes, buyer went through his "financial institution", Paypal has confirmed that is who was requesting return of the funds but they obviously won't tell me which institution that is. Paypal putting the funds on hold during the dispute process is normal, and while irritating it's not a big deal - people should get their opportunities to reply. However, subsequently deciding to remove the funds from me permanently despite the lack of the refund request, as well as in light of all the other information I provided showing delivery, signature, etc., and then not requiring the item to at least be returned is what is utterly confusing.

As if that's not enough, the case is still OPEN within Paypal. That's the only thing that gives me any hope, but then again why would the "financial institution" just back their customer if Paypal already gave them the money back? From their perspective, isn't it really Paypal's problem now? And while Paypal is "fighting for me", they're really just passing the buck to me to try and figure out some other way to collect since they gave the money back already.

David,

Once a buyer initiates a charge back with their credit card paypal immediately puts the squeeze on the seller. Paypal used to, and may still, urge buyers to initiate the dispute with them because they know sellers would be hesitant to use paypal knowing they cave at that point. A charge back should be a last resort for a buyer. Clearly your buyer is simply trying to defraud you by bypassing the policies in place that are there to protect buyer and seller. And yeah it is a HUGE loop hole in the protection that paypal offers sellers.

If paypal was really advocating for you all they would have to do is let the bank know that the buyer is in possession of the merchandise and never even asked to return it. It is pretty infuriating. Since it is no longer their money they are protecting I am sure their effort in this, unless you can get a sympathetic ear, is going to be minimal.

Chase

[bounce]

UPDATE:

Spoke to a supervisor at Paypal, basically the same story.


Federal law provides buyer's the ability to dispute charges with their financial institutions. In a case like this, Paypal is simply a conduit who acts on my behalf as a seller to respond to these cases, however it's the other financial institution who decides whether the chargeback occurs or not. Paypal says they have NO CONTROL over that decision.

Paypal also said that they DO NOT RECEIVE any information from the other financial institution, other than the request. They said that there is a 3rd party involved (likely a judge somewhere) who is provided the information from both sides and ultimately makes the decision. However, Paypal CANNOT SHARE THAT INFORMATION WITH ME.

So again, there's a mystery financial institution, a mystery "arbiter" so to speak, that I don't have direct access to communicate with to prove that I held up my end of this deal.

Additionally, chargeback policies are at the discretion and prerogative of each individual "financial institution", meaning they set the rules and as a seller I'm ultimately at risk of having to abide by those terms despite no notice of what they may be. Paypal acts on my behalf to defend against it, but ultimately has no authority to stop it. Many of those policies allow for chargebacks up to 6 months and sometimes longer, and may not necessarily require valid evidence to support the claim.

So, it really doesn't matter that I was never requested to issue a refund by the buyer or their financial institution, they can simply claim it under those words and there's really nothing I can do about it other than hope that this mystery person somehow rules in my favor.

My expectation of recovery has officially dropped to zero as of this point - I will not get that money and I will not get that card back.

I've considered going back to eBay on this, but I already know what they're going to say to me - payment went through Paypal, not it.

Appreciate the other advice, I will consult an attorney and try and understand what other options I have that would potentially yield any reasonable hope of success or recovery.

[RedsFan1941]

i am very sorry you have to deal with this.

i am curious about one thing: did paypal take the funds from a balance you had in an account with them, or did they take the money from a linked (like a checking) account?

[bounce]

i am very sorry you have to deal with this.

i am curious about one thing: did paypal take the funds from a balance you had in an account with them, or did they take the money from a linked (like a checking) account?

From my Paypal account balance, but it wouldn’t have mattered. If there was no money in the PayPal account, I would either have to fund the deficit or they could put a charge through to my bank.

[drcy]

In small claims court, the positive feedback would be enough to win the case.

[RedsFan1941]

From my Paypal account balance, but it wouldn’t have mattered. If there was no money in the PayPal account, I would either have to fund the deficit or they could put a charge through to my bank.

unreal. good luck with this

[CTDean]

David,
Reply sent. Let me know if you have any questions. As I mentioned, while you may want to hold the eBay ID private for awhile, it wouldn't hurt to throw out the City and State. Someone here may live close to the buyer. Check Craigslist in the buyers area for your card too.

[hcv123]

From my Paypal account balance, but it wouldn’t have mattered. If there was no money in the PayPal account, I would either have to fund the deficit or they could put a charge through to my bank.

For those unfamiliar - this may be worth a look:
http://www.paypalsucks.com/

If there was no money in the paypal account and the money were removed from any linked account Paypal would then be in the position of needing to come after you - not a best case scenario, but at least one where you would be in possession of the funds and be able to prove your side in court.

I was screwed as a buyer years ago - that's when I found the site I linked above.

I still buy and sell on ebay and use paypal, but much more cautiously and don't leave much sitting in my paypal account.

The postal claim sounds like the right next move.

Any reason you haven't posted the buyers info or responded to requests to do so.

So sorry - I know very well how these types of situations as if just knock the air out of you.

[D. Bergin]

And good old eBay won't even let you leave honest feedback.


That ship has long ago sailed. It doesn't even bother me anymore.

What galls me is that if you go on one of the Ebay seller forums and out an ID of somebody who is obviously defrauding other sellers, Ebay is likely to suspend YOU for posting somebody else's ID, no matter what the reason.

I got warned once and had posts deleted just for posting the communications between myself and somebody who was trying to scam me. I didn't even mention any ID's. Ebay told me all communications are to be private, even fraudulent ones.

[bnorth]

That ship has long ago sailed. It doesn't even bother me anymore.

What galls me is that if you go on one of the Ebay seller forums and out an ID of somebody who is obviously defrauding other sellers, Ebay is likely to suspend YOU for posting somebody else's ID, no matter what the reason.

I got warned once and had posts deleted just for posting the communications between myself and somebody who was trying to scam me. I didn't even mention any ID's. Ebay told me all communications are to be private, even fraudulent ones.

It has been like that for easily 5-6 years.:mad: I get it because every place has an agenda. I am on a forum that you can't call out the horrible things some businesses do or you will get banned. It is just the stuff you have to put up with to play in someone elses sandbox.

[jb217676]

Doesn't the buyer need to provide proof to receive a refund, like a tracking number showing the card was returned to you? Why are you forced to give a refund if the card wasn't returned?
Jeff

[ngnichols]

Doesn't the buyer need to provide proof to receive a refund, like a tracking number showing the card was returned to you? Why are you forced to give a refund if the card wasn't returned?
Jeff

They can simply claim their bank card or credit card was stolen, account hacked, etc. and say they never made the purchase themselves and file a chargeback with their bank or credit card company. I had a similar situation happen to me about a year ago. Fortunately for me, it wasn't big ticket stuff and PayPal sided with me after I showed them previous eBay purchases of similar items from the buyer that were not charged back and seeing the tracking information I provided them with showing it was delivered to the exact address of the card-holder.

David, I am sorry to hear this happened to you. This flat out sucks man. I am just shocked that they are still doing this despite the clear-cut evidence you've provided them with. It's pretty obvious that if you haven't gotten any communication via eBay or E-Mail that this guy knew what he was doing and knows you know what's up. Definitely a BIG loop-hole and problem here for anyone on eBay or utilizing PayPal in conjunction with eBay to sell and take payments. Doesn't seem like there is much anyone can do until PayPal closes this loop-hole or eBay makes their payment system more attractive and doesn't box people in to only utilizing them for ever and ever.

I've never had any kind of significant problems with PayPal (Fingers crossed, knocks on wood) so any little minor problems I've encountered have been resolved pretty quickly and to my satisfaction. This is definitely a strange one and doesn't sound like it's going to end positively for David unfortunately. :(

[painthistorian]

Paypal is required to provide a confirmed address when transacting so if you shipped the card to that paypal confirmed address, and have the original shipping documentation, they cannot state that it is out of their hands since there is a seller protection clause...you will have to send a legal letter to paypal showing this transaction details from start to finish, we had an incident similar and won the case but it took 3 months ...it was not a baseball card but an expensive porcelain item and it was similar experience...

You can insist that paypal provides you with a provisional credit if you have a signature confirmation as over $750, that is the requirement....They can hide behind the 3rd party conduit crap but if you have signature confirmation, proof of usps delivery documentation, and e bay proof of delivery, then you have to contact their fraud department and report this buyer as fraudulent, include a scanned documentation legal letter from your attorney and ask for a provisional credit until their research department can prove otherwise.

[ngnichols]

Paypal is required to provide a confirmed address when transacting so if you shipped the card to that paypal confirmed address, and have the original shipping documentation, they cannot state that it is out of their hands since there is a seller protection clause...you will have to send a legal letter to paypal showing this transaction details from start to finish, we had an incident similar and won the case but it took 3 months ...it was not a baseball card but an expensive porcelain item and it was similar experience...

You can insist that paypal provides you with a provisional credit if you have a signature confirmation as over $750, that is the requirement....They can hide behind the 3rd party conduit crap but if you have signature confirmation, proof of usps delivery documentation, and e bay proof of delivery, then you have to contact their fraud department and report this buyer as fraudulent, include a scanned documentation legal letter from your attorney and ask for a provisional credit until their research department can prove otherwise.

Obviously a lot of hoops to jump through, but that sounds like the only alternative at this point. Thanks for sharing that even though it sucks you had to go through all of that nonsense even though you did nothing wrong.

[Jobu]

I am very sorry to hear this. The crook knows that it isn't worth what you would have to pay a lawyer, or what it would take for you to appear in small claims court in his city. (I believe some small claims courts make you show up in person, you can't have a representative, so you get killed on travel costs. And even if you have a rep, then you are back to paying a lawyer ---- unless there is a very kind local Net54 member willing to appear on your behalf, which, now that I say it, is a possibility if the rules allow for it).

I am also not sure that this is mail fraud. The package was received. It was never sent back, but nothing ever happened at USPS. The guy just lied to his credit card company and completely left USPS out of it. This appears to be eBay and bank fraud, not mail fraud.

So, it seems the way to prevent this in the future would be to 1) never keep a Paypal balance - including immediate transfer of all sale proceeds to one's bank, and 2) have a single account number at the bank which is tied to Paypal and where the funds land, but then immediately transfer them to another account -- probably one at another bank to be extra safe. The problem here is then you have a negative Paypal balance, which means they will pay themselves back with your next transactions, and probably send the account to collections if you try to close it or let it go inactive. So I guess there really is no way to cover one's ass here.

Do you have card insurance? You might be able to file a claim with them.

Also, Larry replied as I typed this. I think pursuing it as he suggests is wise. And if you do have insurance, send them the same documentation about a potential claim just so that they have everything and you don't later find out that you waited too long to notify them of a loss if going through the Paypal process really might take three or more months.

[Directly]

Years ago I posted a Japanese sword on Ebay.
A interested buyer from Australia wanted to purchase, but I tried to explain I didn't ship overseas--he persisted saying there would be no problems, I finally caved sold him the sword and shipped. About two weeks later he asked to return the sword, saying he unwrapped the binding on the handle and the tang didn't have any information inscribed on the metal tang handle.

I asked why he should expect to return for a refund after he literally took the sword apart, leaving me with just parts so to speak.

Anyway I received a notice from Paypal they would leave me a minus 800.00 negative balance which they did with no questions asked.

Although I did receive the sword back in pieces I resold to another buyer, this time a USA buyer-- the credit card co will usually side with their customers for any right or wrong disputes!

[Mark17]

If you talk to a lawyer, you might want to ask him about this potential scenario: Suppose the guy sends you back the card. In order for him to be able to prove he did return it, you would have to sign for it. But here's the danger... Suppose you get a heavily insured package from the guy, sign for it, walk out of the post office, get home, open the package, and inside is a recent, common card. He has all the documentation he needs to "prove" he returned it. You have no proof to the contrary.

So... if you do get a package from the guy, what to do? Open it at the post office with the postal workers as witness, and take pictures of you opening it, what's inside, with the witnesses, and so on? Or take the unopened package to your attorney and open it there, under his observation?

It would be good to know what an attorney would recommend in this scenario.

[Lorewalker]

It would be good to know what an attorney would recommend in this scenario.

There are a lot of lawyers on this board. Maybe none who specifically practice in this area but it would be interesting to get their pov.

[robw1959]

True. Maybe Peter could weigh in.

Anyhow, I would recommend filing a report with your local police department. If this is deemed to be a civil case, they won't get involved except to possibly refer you to small claims court. However, if it's deemed to be a criminal case of fraud, they should then contact the corresponding police department in the culprit's city, and fill them in on the situation. That department should then do their due diligence, and put the squeeze on him until he either returns your card or your money. Oftentimes, the wheels of justice can move rather slowly, but they do move.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

I have never had a problem like this with PayPal. They are usually pretty good about resolving these issues. I’m wondering if they are giving up. The writing is on the wall - in a couple of years eBay will be pulling all of their business. What happens to PayPal after that? Maybe they are in last ditch mode - grab all you can, cut every corner and screw the customer. This is the worst case scenario of eBay and PayPal now being separate companies and neither wants to deal with the others problems. It has me thinking harder about moving over to the new payment system because eBay would help to get it resolved if it was all under one roof.
Thanks for posting. Sorry for your headaches in this nightmare.

[esd10]

If this person does receive the funds back without returning the merchandise I would consider this theft of goods and would file a police report.

[Mark17]

And if I was talking to some supervisor-level person at PayPal I would ask them if this is really a can of worms they wish to open. Because if this scam gains traction and becomes commonplace it could literally sink their company.

[BlueDevil89]

I had a similar situation a few months ago. After the card had been purchased and delivered nearly six months ealier, the buyer came back and filed a claim with their credit card stating they never received the card. PayPal in turn froze the money in my account pending an investigation.

Good thing I saved all the paperwork. Had to go to the USPS and get proof of delivery from the post office.

After conducting the "full investigation", PayPal released the funds back to me.

If I didn't still have the tracking number on the shipment, PayPal would have forced me to issue a full refund.

Lots of scammers out there. Beware.

[yanks12025]

Paypal must have changed their policy recently.. Cause I had this same thing happen couple years ago for over $1,000.. I simply contacted PayPal, gave them the tracking number and showed that the item was delivered and signed for.. So they gave me my money back and was gonna fight the other parties back on their own.

[sterlingfox]

eBay is chock full of scammers.

Many years ago when I was selling PCs and Laptops, over the course of 14 months I had it happen to me SEVEN times for amounts between a few hundred to over $1000.

I won each and every Paypal case by providing the tracking number and a copy of the signature on file.

If this is Paypal's new policy, then it's time to jump ship!

[Tony Gordon]

I had the same thing happen to me but it was only a $30-dollar card. Paypal conducted their three-month investigation, ignored the tracking that showed the item was received, and sided with the buyer. I was out both the money and the card. I haven't listed much for sale on eBay after this.

[pokerplyr80]

And if I was talking to some supervisor-level person at PayPal I would ask them if this is really a can of worms they wish to open. Because if this scam gains traction and becomes commonplace it could literally sink their company.

Yea I agree. Something seems off. I have never heard of this policy or had this issue arise yet. It would seem to me that of someone bypasses the Ebay or PayPal claim system amd disputes a credit card transaction that should be between the buyer and PayPal. Isn't that why you pay the 3 or 4% fee?

[MichelaiTorres83]

I am very sorry to hear this. The crook knows that it isn't worth what you would have to pay a lawyer, or what it would take for you to appear in small claims court in his city. (I believe some small claims courts make you show up in person, you can't have a representative, so you get killed on travel costs. And even if you have a rep, then you are back to paying a lawyer ---- unless there is a very kind local Net54 member willing to appear on your behalf, which, now that I say it, is a possibility if the rules allow for it).

I am also not sure that this is mail fraud. The package was received. It was never sent back, but nothing ever happened at USPS. The guy just lied to his credit card company and completely left USPS out of it. This appears to be eBay and bank fraud, not mail fraud.

So, it seems the way to prevent this in the future would be to 1) never keep a Paypal balance - including immediate transfer of all sale proceeds to one's bank, and 2) have a single account number at the bank which is tied to Paypal and where the funds land, but then immediately transfer them to another account -- probably one at another bank to be extra safe. The problem here is then you have a negative Paypal balance, which means they will pay themselves back with your next transactions, and probably send the account to collections if you try to close it or let it go inactive. So I guess there really is no way to cover one's ass here.

Do you have card insurance? You might be able to file a claim with them.

Also, Larry replied as I typed this. I think pursuing it as he suggests is wise. And if you do have insurance, send them the same documentation about a potential claim just so that they have everything and you don't later find out that you waited too long to notify them of a loss if going through the Paypal process really might take three or more months.

If you buy your own .com you can make as many email addresses as you want and tie a new paypal account to your new email. They would not do much about it after that. You can not close a paypal account with a negative balance.

If you want to go one step further you could have an llc claim no profits, tie your paypal account to the business so its not on your social security number then close the llc.

Your liability dies if you close the llc and paypal is left with a negative balance and no legal entity to sue.

Enjoy.

[egbeachley]

If this person does receive the funds back without returning the merchandise I would consider this theft of goods and would file a police report.

+1

[ramram]

I just can’t imagine that Paypal/credit card company wouldn’t have complicity in the theft if they took the funds from you without any kind of proof that the card was returned to you. :confused:

Rob M

[Jim65]

As much as I hate to defend PayPal, if a buyer initiates a chargeback through their bank or credit card, it is up to that bank whether the chargeback goes through, PayPal is powerless. If PayPal takes the money from your bank, then you do have recourse through your bank. If they seize your PayPal account, you're screwed.

I speak from experience, unfortunately.

[jbbama]

This kind of scenario really sucks, i hate that you have to deal with this BS. Just an FYI for anyone here, NEVER, NEVER, leave large amounts of money in your paypal account. Also, have that account tied to something other than your primary checking or savings account. Yes, paypal can "freeze your account" until resolved, but at least they dont have your money...you do! I learned this lesson the hard way several years back. Go get 'em......

[Baseball Fan]

This kind of scenario really sucks, i hate that you have to deal with this BS. Just an FYI for anyone here, NEVER, NEVER, leave large amounts of money in your paypal account. Also, have that account tied to something other than your primary checking or savings account. Yes, paypal can "freeze your account" until resolved, but at least they dont have your money...you do! I learned this lesson the hard way several years back. Go get 'em......

Quick question. What could the account be tied to if not checking or savings? I would possibly like to make this change due to this thread.

[bnorth]

Quick question. What could the account be tied to if not checking or savings? I would possibly like to make this change due to this thread.

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.:)

[callou2131]

Ebay is losing a lot of card sellers because of things like this. Credit card claims, sending back empty top loaders and getting refunds, etc. The worst is the INAD on prospects. Someone buys a rookie card of player A while they are in spring training. 5 months later the player blows out a knee, or just sucks, and his card values plummet. They return the card that is now worth a quarter what it was worth. Could you imagine if you were in the stock market and could change your mind after 5 months on a stock you bought? These are liquid items, and it needs to stop.

[Baseball Fan]

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.:)


So, if I have a second account that doesn't have any money it in, they still wouldn't be able to come at me and demand I refund somebody after six months?

[bnorth]

So, if I have a second account that doesn't have any money it in, they still wouldn't be able to come at me and demand I refund somebody after six months?

They will still be able to come after you but they will not be able to take $ from an account that doesn't have any $ in it.

If it is a fraudulent return/scam you can clear it up while keeping your $ during the process. Now if someone wants to return a item 1 day short of 6 months there is very little you can do but return the $ after they return the item.

There is really no way to avoid the scammers. The good part is even with all the horror stories scammers are fairly rare. Back when I was a bigger seller on eBay I just figured 1 out of 100 sales was going to be a problem. Then about 1 out of 10 of them was going to be a real problem. Just the risk you have to take to sell on eBay.

[Baseball Fan]

They will still be able to come after you but they will not be able to take $ from an account that doesn't have any $ in it.

If it is a fraudulent return/scam you can clear it up while keeping your $ during the process. Now if someone wants to return a item 1 day short of 6 months there is very little you can do but return the $ after they return the item.

There is really no way to avoid the scammers. The good part is even with all the horror stories scammers are fairly rare. Back when I was a bigger seller on eBay I just figured 1 out of 100 sales was going to be a problem. Then about 1 out of 10 of them was going to be a real problem. Just the risk you have to take to sell on eBay.

Cool. Thanks.

[Exhibitman]

This kind of scenario really sucks, i hate that you have to deal with this BS. Just an FYI for anyone here, NEVER, NEVER, leave large amounts of money in your paypal account. Also, have that account tied to something other than your primary checking or savings account. Yes, paypal can "freeze your account" until resolved, but at least they dont have your money...you do!

This. I have a dedicated checking account tied to PayPal and whenever it has more than a hundred bucks I sweep the excess to a savings account that is not tied into PayPal. If I sell something big that money goes right to the savings account and does not linger in my PayPal account or the dedicated checking account.

[rats60]

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.:)

IF you ever had the main account tied to PayPal, they will go after the funds even if it isn't currently attached to your account. It would be better to open a new account that paypal doesn't know about and park most of your money there.

[sportscardtheory]

I would think that PayPal taking funds from your bank/credit account would also give you the right to refute that "charge" through YOUR bank/credit provider, as the fraudster did. As in, do the same thing back to them.

[Exhibitman]

IF you ever had the main account tied to PayPal, they will go after the funds even if it isn't currently attached to your account. It would be better to open a new account that paypal doesn't know about and park most of your money there.

I don't think that's legal. If I rescind my permission to access my account they can't just go ahead and access it.

[Jobu]

I recently opened a second account at my bank as a PayPal landing account. This new account is the only one tied to PayPal and I move the money out of it to another account at the same bank (which is an instant transfer).

My question: if PayPal tried to draw out of the empty account, would my bank use my other accounts to cover it like they do when they pull money from your savings account to cover a check larger than their checking balance? In other words, does my PayPal landing account need to be a different account number at my primary bank or an account at a bank where I have no other accounts? (The latter would be annoying bc transfers can take a few days and would make it harder to buy things on bst using my balance.)

[Bugsy]

I recently opened a second account at my bank as a PayPal landing account. This new account is the only one tied to PayPal and I move the money out of it to another account at the same bank (which is an instant transfer).

My question: if PayPal tried to draw out of the empty account, would my bank use my other accounts to cover it like they do when they pull money from your savings account to cover a check larger than their checking balance? In other words, does my PayPal landing account need to be a different account number at my primary bank or an account at a bank where I have no other accounts? (The latter would be annoying bc transfers can take a few days and would make it harder to buy things on bst using my balance.)

If PayPal can’t draw funds from an account to get your balance back to zero, they just submit your information to a collection agency. That’s why disconnecting your bank account from PayPal in a chargeback won’t work.

[Exhibitman]

Well, except that you can fight a collection agency and not pay unless you lose, and if you have proof of a fraudulent charge-back a court might let you go. If PayPal simply loots your account then you have to sue to chase it down rather than vice versa. i'd rather defend with cash in hand than have to go chase cash.

[Popcorn]

After PayPal put $2,000 on hold and then gave it all back to a 0 feedback buyer who claimed to receive a “empty box” I have never kept anything over a $1 in my account. Even if I sell a $10 card it’s getting transferred to my bank ASAP lol

[ramram]

When selling on ebay, is there a way to require a minimum positive feedback score, say 30, or the bid won't be accepted?

Rob M

[Jobu]

Yep -- kinda. Visit:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/setting-buyer-requirements?id=4152

...and then click the link in #1 Buyer Requirements. There are several options, though not the exact one you are after.


When selling on ebay, is there a way to require a minimum positive feedback score, say 30, or the bid won't be accepted?

Rob M

[ramram]

Yep -- kinda. Visit:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/setting-buyer-requirements?id=4152

...and then click the link in #1 Buyer Requirements. There are several options, though not the exact one you are after.

Thanks Bryan

[Roulette44]

Yes, but Ebay won't let you restrict prospective buyers to 30 feedback (or 20....10.....5). You literally can't protect yourself as the seller and an unscrupulous buyer can play this "item not as described" or "item not received" scam..... It's so frustrating..

[bounce]

Update on this shortly

[bounce]

So - finally got resolution on this case.

The chargeback case was "decided in my favor", thankfully.

Summary of what happened:
- Sold a card through eBay on January 2nd.
- Shipped it signature required etc. based on the Seller's Protection guidelines at Paypal, on January 3rd.
- Notice was left on January 5th, buyer signed for it on January 9th.
- Buyer left me positive feedback on eBay shortly after that.
- Not quite two months later, Paypal freezes the funds in my account saying the buyer (or maybe financial institution, never was clear on who initiated this) had filed a claim for a "refund not received".
- Sent Paypal all my info, including eBay and other information to demonstrate that no refund had ever been requested.
- Had three different phone calls with Paypal, and basically was told there was nothing they could do, other than dispute the chargeback with the financial institution.
- They also told me because it was a "refund not received" request, it wasn't covered under Seller Protection, even though they acknowledged verbally I had never been asked to give a refund. More on that later.
- The process can take up to 75 days to decide. I posted this on March 1, and got the money back on May 14. Looks like every single one of those days was used in this case.

This was one of the most confusing and frustrating things I've encountered in what it literally almost 20 years of being on eBay.

It sure feels like this is a big loophole that buyers/financial institutions can try to exploit. I was literally told during this process that there was nothing else I could have done to put myself in any better position, yet the money still got hung up for 2.5 months, and that clock only started nearly 2 months after I originally sold the card. So from sale date to resolution, it was 4.5 months.

How this could have ever been initiated without an actual request for refund is bizarre - I still don't understand what that was an absolute requirement to even begin the process.

Why it wasn't covered under Seller Protection is equally bizarre, considering I had followed the requirements (despite what seemed to be at least a temporary glitch in the Paypal site, but not the USPS site), and provided that information as quickly as I could.

Why it took all 75 days to finally be resolved is certainly frustrating.

Anyway, good news is it ended as it should have.

[MikeGarcia]

Can you tell us the E-Bay ID ( and city ) of the scam artist who tried to do this . So we don't also go through the same deal. Thanks.

..

[Fuddjcal]

UPDATE: Go to post 70 to see final resolution and summary, case ended in my favor so I did get the money. Long wait, but fortunately it's resolved now.


I don't always comment on things like this, but this one takes the cake and I feel obligated to warn everyone who may be selling anything online to be very wary.

I've currently got a dispute going at Paypal for a card I sold in January.

I sold a card on eBay on January 2nd.
Buyer paid on January 2nd, I received funds via Paypal.
I shipped priority mail, insured, signature confirmation on January 3rd.
*NOTE: Interesting fact on this, USPS shows all that. Paypal doesn't show the signature confirmation service, more on that in a moment.
On January 5th, USPS left a notice with the buyer.
On January 9th, buyer signed for the card.
Shortly thereafter, I was given positive feedback on eBay from the buyer.

Buyer has subsequently gone to their "financial institution", who has then gone to Paypal and filed a claim against me for "Refund not received" in middle of February.

Paypal initially put the funds on hold, but earlier this week took them permanently from my account.

First, they said that it wasn't covered under buyer protection because it didn't have signature required. I've proven to them that it did, and had included that information when I first responded to the case. Today I sent them the pdf showing the signature from the USPS records.

Once that was resolved, they've now said that it still doesn't matter because the seller protection DOES NOT cover "refund not received".

I have shown Paypal that there was NO REQUEST for refund on their site (which they agree with), and that NO REQUEST for refund was made on eBay either (which they agree with).

I also spoke to eBay today, who said they're not involved any more because Paypal handles the money. They acknowledged no request for refund had been made of me on eBay, and they acknowledged I had received positive feedback on the transaction.

As it stands at this moment, Paypal is telling me that the decision is in the hands of the buyer's "financial institution", who of course I don't know who that is and neither eBay or Paypal will give me that information. I asked them both, and both said they couldn't provide it even if they had it (which eBay says they do not).

Paypal of course says they are fighting for me as their customer, but have no intention of covering me under seller protection because again that DOES NOT include "Refund not received". Why they didn't tell the other "financial institution" that no request for refund has been submitted, and no evidence of return of the item has been demonstrated, before taking the funds out of my Paypal account I have no idea.

The Paypal representative also told me the following, I'm paraphrasing but they're pretty close to quotes.
1) Federal law allows buyers to dispute charges with their financial institutions (which I certainly understand), and there's nothing Paypal can really do about that other than provide what evidence I may give them of a valid sale (which I've already done).

2) The only way I can prevent risk of chargeback is to accept cash. Yes, a Paypal representative said that out loud to me today on the phone.

3) If the financial institution sides with their customer (what do you think they're otherwise going to do? I asked my Paypal rep), my only recourse at that point is to try and recover the card back through small claims court.


I'll update this more as this unfolds, but as of right now it looks like I'm out $1,425.

Felt obligated to share, because at this point I have zero expectation of getting the card or my money back, and the implications of this for any other item I sell through eBay has me seriously considering if my internet days as a seller are permanently at an end. I had not really investigated the payment options that I can accept on eBay, but I definitely will need to look into that now if this is how Paypal is going to defend me - which is to say basically they aren't. Why wouldn't everyone just dispute charges for "Refund not received" through their credit card company if it's really this easy to get Paypal to give seller's funds back over.

AND THAT would be the last time I use them. I would have my attorney sue PAY PAL. They are scum and I cut them off many years ago. This is sickening.

[AGuinness]

Glad it had a favorable resolution, even though the timeframe and hoops are ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I believe Paypal just changed their T&C's to cover this type of scenario under their seller protection

[pokerplyr80]

Congrats on the favorable outcome. Hopefully AJ is right about this scenario now being covered. I think I will stick to either selling to people I know in the hobby or consigning to avoid situations like this though. Or at least make sure never to keep funds in my PayPal account.