How rare would a stack of 1921 Herpolsheimer's be? Including Babe. Just wondering :)

[Atari]

October 2023:
Hi again, everyone. It's been a few years, here's my post on the status update for these awesome cards:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=2378466&postcount=63


Old thread from 2019 below....


It took me awhile to find you guys, but this seems like the best spot to ask.

https://i.ibb.co/3C3tnYf/herps.png (https://ibb.co/9rDR73w)

https://i.ibb.co/sHKvzXC/herp-proof.png (https://ibb.co/8crDtQb)

https://i.ibb.co/qmLpW27/herp-ruth-back.png (https://ibb.co/r5KHcXF)

https://i.ibb.co/CzvqGWw/herp-list.png (https://imgbb.com/)




In their "Ultra-Rare 1921 E121 Herpolsheimer Fred Toney sale (http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Ultra_Rare_1921_E121_Herpolsheimer_Fred_Toney___SG-LOT5536.aspx)" Love of the Game Auctions says:

"The most difficult, however, are the cards advertising the Herpolsheimer's Boys Fashion Shop. The reason for this is that just 69 or 70 cards from the issue are known to exist, no more than one example of each subject."


Well... here's 39 more that are now "known".

The cards have lived in a metal Band-Aid box probably since the mid 1930s.

Planning to grade and sell them soon but trying to get an idea of what you guys think the Babe Ruth may be worth.

I've searched everywhere, but I've never seen a Herpolsheimer backed Babe Ruth before. 1 of 1? :)

[swarmee]

Welcome to the board. Way to make a splash. No back picture? Checklist? New names? Or team/position variations?

[philliesphan]

Unclear why you wouldn't show the card backs - as the E121/W575-1's are not hard as a general issue, just difficult with the Herpolsheimer's advertising reverse.

The known cards were all found at the same time, and up until that point, only a single example of each card was identified. There is some controversy/debate on the erasure of the back writing on some of the cards - I'm sure you can find more here on Net54 on that topic.

Putting a price tag on a unique or near-unique card is quite difficult. I'd say get the cards authenticated and graded -

The Ruth that sold in 2004 went for just under $8k IIRC

[Atari]

Welcome to the board. Way to make a splash. No back picture? Checklist? New names? Or team/position variations?

Was going to post the list, but what do you think? Should I tease it? I've contracted the herps! :eek::D

Ok, here you go. Since you were first to reply :)

https://i.ibb.co/CzvqGWw/herp-list.png (https://ibb.co/R9P1w7g)

[Jobu]

Nice find!

Here is a 2012 sale of a Ruth:

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2012/spring/385/1916-m101-herpolsheimer-151-babe-ruth-rookie-sgc-vgex/

And a 2010 sale of a really nice one:

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/spring/16/1916-m101-herpolsheimer-151-babe-ruth-rookie-psa/

Yours isn't quite as nice as the 2012 sale (depending on what the back of yours looks like), BUT Ruth cards have gone way up in value since 2012. So I would say that yours will definitely bring more than the 2012 sale and to find out how much more you will need to grade it and send it to auction.

[philliesphan]

Jobu-

1921, not 1916. Different issue, different team, RC vs. non-RC

It's a very different issue altogether :)

[Atari]

Nice find!

Here is a 2012 sale of a Ruth:

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2012/spring/385/1916-m101-herpolsheimer-151-babe-ruth-rookie-sgc-vgex/

And a 2010 sale of a really nice one:

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/spring/16/1916-m101-herpolsheimer-151-babe-ruth-rookie-psa/

Yours isn't quite as nice as the 2012 sale (depending on what the back of yours looks like), BUT Ruth cards have gone way up in value since 2012. So I would say that yours will definitely bring more than the 2012 sale and to find out how much more you will need to grade it and send it to auction.

Yeah, I saw those too. They are the 1916's. This is the 1921. Have never seen "mine" before anywhere (they belong to my uncle).

[swarmee]

Can you post a picture of the backs? There are a lot of different E121 backs:
http://www.oldcardboard.com/e/e2/e121/e121-gallery-of-backs.asp

Reasoning: slow-rolling people like this makes people think you're a scammer.

[Leon]

The very infamous pencil is finally shown!!

[Atari]

Unclear why you wouldn't show the card backs - as the E121/W575-1's are not hard as a general issue, just difficult with the Herpolsheimer's advertising reverse.

The known cards were all found at the same time, and up until that point, only a single example of each card was identified. There is some controversy/debate on the erasure of the back writing on some of the cards - I'm sure you can find more here on Net54 on that topic.

Putting a price tag on a unique or near-unique card is quite difficult. I'd say get the cards authenticated and graded -

The Ruth that sold in 2004 went for just under $8k IIRC

Was just waiting for a post like yours sir. Here you go:


https://i.ibb.co/sHKvzXC/herp-proof.png (https://ibb.co/8crDtQb)


This is the back of the Babe Ruth. Not perfect, but pretty good?:

https://i.ibb.co/qmLpW27/herp-ruth-back.png (https://ibb.co/r5KHcXF)
roll a die.com (https://freeonlinedice.com/)

[Atari]

The very infamous pencil is finally shown!!

Hi Leon! :D

[insidethewrapper]

These were supposed to be issued by a Grand Rapids, Michigan department store. Did your Uncle live in that area ?

[Atari]

These were supposed to be issued by a Grand Rapids, Michigan department store. Did your Uncle live in that area ?

No, the original owner probably did as a teenager (still researching). Did the math on his age and he would have been about the right age to have been collecting these as a kid.

EDIT: Yes appears original owner was from Kent, Michigan. Just a few miles outside of Grand Rapids, MI.

[longstreet766]

Congrats on the find! I’ve been collect these for the last 5 years or so and own several. Good luck with whatever you decide to do with them.

In its day Herpolsheimers was the preeminent department store in Grand Rapids. Can you share any details on the find/history of these cards?

Mike

[Jobu]

Ah, my bad guys. Did that on my phone and wasn't paying enough attention.

Jobu-

1921, not 1916. Different issue, different team, RC vs. non-RC

It's a very different issue altogether :)

[Atari]

I am going to reach out to PSA, SGC, BGS next week to see if any of them are interested in grading the lot. Do you think one of them would do it free of charge? I'd think the bragging (and marketing) rights to be the first registry to see, grade, and list these is worth something?

[oldjudge]

Great cards. That Ruth will sell for a lot.

[Atari]

BTW, that funny "found $2 card in the pawn shop - possibly worth millions!" story that hit recently is what brought these out (same card front). So that pawn shop owner didn't know what it was? That's not like any pawn shop owner I've ever known.

Not sure about the other guy and the $2 shotwell, but these definitely the real deal. Since they've probably been living in the can for 90 years, these cards in this collection has that nice old paper smell :)

[pete zouras]

Big selling point of these has been they were all one of ones. Does that cut the value in half at least the commons?

[Jobu]

Ahhh, no. They will all be happy to grade them for you, but PSA is going to charge you between $3,000 (card value $25,000-$100,000) to $5,000 (value $100,000+) for just the Ruth.

I am going to reach out to PSA, SGC, BGS next week to see if any of them are interested in grading the lot. Do you think one of them would do it free of charge? I'd think the bragging (and marketing) rights to be the first registry to see, grade, and list these is worth something?

[Atari]

Ahhh, no. They will all be happy to grade them for you, but PSA is going to charge you between $3,000 (card value $25,000-$100,000) to $5,000 (value $100,000+) for just the Ruth.

Hard to judge the value of a good one-of-a-kind industry press release :)

Which of the 3 major services can currently issue a press release with nicely edited youtube video of them grading this lot? Would you watch that video?

[swarmee]

You're the kind of guy who calls the bet in a poker game, let's everyone else reveal their cards, and says: "Damn. I only have two pair. Sixes and sixes." GLWS.

[Atari]

You're the kind of guy who calls the bet in a poker game, let's everyone else reveal their cards, and says: "Damn. I only have two pair. Sixes and sixes." GLWS.

quad 6's better and less evil than trips. ;)

[bnorth]

Hard to judge the value of a good one-of-a-kind industry press release :)

Which of the 3 major services can currently issue a press release with nicely edited youtube video of them grading this lot? Would you watch that video?

Just my opinion but they grade cards of that value and much more fairly regularly. It wouldn't make any sense for them to give their product(grading) away for free.

[asphaltman]

Big selling point of these has been they were all one of ones. Does that cut the value in half at least the commons?


Definitely a large find will cut the value overall. If they all sell at once I think it’ll saturate the market, like some of the other finds have done over last ten years with other issues.

Abd guess we will see, but I’d say value on this Ruth is more like $20k-25k. It’s not the 1916 issue.

[swarmee]

Just my opinion but they grade cards of that value and much more fairly regularly. It wouldn't make any sense for them to give their product(grading) away for free.

It might for Beckett to advertise their BVG Vintage segment; they graded the newly discovered Mascot Dog Food Mantle when PSA passed. Or for SGC to rollout their new automated scan process and registry.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Definitely a large find will cut the value overall. If they all sell at once I think it’ll saturate the market, like some of the other finds have done over last ten years with other issues.

Abd guess we will see, but I’d say value on this Ruth is more like $20k-25k. It’s not the 1916 issue.

If you were talking a Black Swamp-like find with multiples of given players in conditions never before seen I would agree. But this takes the cards from population 1 to population 2. If anything I think it sparks interest and they see an increase. They're still rarer than all get out, but we're not adding 5 or 6 or more of any one given card, and some of his might be 1 of 1's that were previously undiscovered (haven't actually gone through the lists)

Congrats and good luck!

[philliesphan]

Very cool, Atari, thanks for sharing the additional scans.

Huge find. Definitely get the Ruth and a few other(s) graded. There will be multiple ways to consider monetizing this find. Definitely adds a new storyline to the 1921 issue, which was controversial/debated ±15 years ago.

All the best-
m

[darwinbulldog]

I'd be surprised if Ruth went for less than $25k.

[ullmandds]

The ruth...assumimg authentic will sell for significantly more than 25k.

[asphaltman]

The ruth...assumimg authentic will sell for significantly more than 25k.

Could be. Especially in the right auction house. I just don’t see it fetching the numbers of any of the 1916 issues

[pcoz]

I have the Holsum Ruth 1/1 from 1920. I paid 84k 4-5 yrs ago. It’s estimated to be in the 125k-140k+ area presently. E121’s have easily doubled the past five years, and with that iconic pose, I think your card will bring a haul, congrats!



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/fbb6187c5448853c37ff81a766299128.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/bd0e7ae683de5e992c9a98d7e5fef444.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luke]

Awesome find! Which other HOFers are in there? I see Maranville and Sisler. I would think this card would top $100k easily and $200k wouldn't surprise me.

[IMAXMAX]

Whoa! Congrats::::
I guess my 1/1 Stengel(thanks Leon!) is now a 1/2...all good though.
Hope these cards are found to be authentic, and helps put the doubts about the legitimacy of the original find to rest.

Do these cards also have pencil marks on the back?
Was the pencil in the band-aid box too?

[brianp-beme]

Awesome find! Which other HOFers are in there? I see Maranville and Sisler. I would think this card would top $100k easily and $200k wouldn't surprise me.

Post 4 has the list of Herpo's in this find.

Brian

[Atari]

Whoa! Congrats::::
I guess my 1/1 Stengel(thanks Leon!) is now a 1/2...all good though.
Hope these cards are found to be authentic, and helps put the doubts about the legitimacy of the original find to rest.

Do these cards also have pencil marks on the back?
Was the pencil in the band-aid box too?

Ha ha no the pencil is a home depot carpenters pencil. I've been remodeling the kitchen and that was the pencil on my desk. :p

No pencil marks on the backs of these herps that I can see.

[Atari]

You're the kind of guy who calls the bet in a poker game, let's everyone else reveal their cards, and says: "Damn. I only have two pair. Sixes and sixes." GLWS.

Apologies there. Back in office again so I can reply.... obviously the backs were the most important - to see that they are indeed herps! So in order to better authenticate that I was posting in real time, in possession, etc. I wanted to wait for someone to ask for the backs so I could print the page (of them asking) & display them in the manner that I did.

The list I was initially reluctant to include in the first post as I said because there is some value in the "mystery" in not knowing which previous 1-of-1's have become 1-of-2's, which new 1-of-1's are out there, etc. Something I was considering to save for an auction house catalog to reveal. At the end of the day, only one company will get to do that anyway, so not that big of a loss, and better to get the list out there early so people can consider what may be coming to market soon/eventually.

I guess we'll save the rest of that mystery for the conditions of each card -- which can eventually be seen exclusively on the graders registry of whoever we wind up working with. Sadly, the Ruth isn't the best card in the deck, but thankfully far from the worst.

Cheers! :)

[Atari]

Post 4 has the list of Herpo's in this find.

Brian

I copied all the pics to the first post now. Apologies for rolling them out slowly.

[Atari]

I have the Holsum Ruth 1/1 from 1920. I paid 84k 4-5 yrs ago. It’s estimated to be in the 125k-140k+ area presently. E121’s have easily doubled the past five years, and with that iconic pose, I think your card will bring a haul, congrats!



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/fbb6187c5448853c37ff81a766299128.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/bd0e7ae683de5e992c9a98d7e5fef444.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very nice card! Would have guessed better than 40/VG3.

[oldjudge]

Hi Pete! I think that the card will go for a lot less than $100,000. Although there are now only two copies, there are many ad back Ruth rookies with only a few copies known and in this condition they would sell for between $150,000 and $200,000. This is from the post Red Sox period and is a lot less desirable than a rookie card. I would value it at $40,000 to $60,000.

[pcoz]

Hi Jay! Didn't realize there were two, and in its condition, I agree on price and on your assessment of the value of the rarer Ruth RC ad backs. The E121/E122's have continued to climb though in price on their popularity and being undervalued for too long. Super card/find nonetheless.

[riggs336]

The cards have lived in a metal Band-Aid box probably since the mid 1930s
[/QUOTE]I

Amazing find! That style Band-Aid box was used in the 1940's and '50's. The '30's version had a sliding lid. Just something to know when you pitch the AH's.

https://www.kilmerhouse.com/2013/04/collect-a-piece-of-johnson-johnson-history-band-aid-brand-adhesive-bandages-tins

[seablaster]

Damn. I just checked all my Band-Aid boxes and all I found were Band-Aids.

[swarmee]

I wanted to wait for someone to ask for the backs so I could print the page (of them asking) & display them in the manner that I did.
Those kind of behaviors just set off my scammer goosebumps, nearly as much as "I don't have time," "Selling as reprint," and "God bless."
It's good that you have the real thing, with a back story, and are going to help your uncle derive the best resale value for the collection. Maybe you're not used to posting on collecting message boards, but you set off a bunch of the flags, maybe not meaning to, maybe because you were relishing the reveal too much.

[xplainer]

Those kind of behaviors just set off my scammer goosebumps, nearly as much as "I don't have time," "Selling as reprint," and "God bless."
It's good that you have the real thing, with a back story, and are going to help your uncle derive the best resale value for the collection. Maybe you're not used to posting on collecting message boards, but you set off a bunch of the flags, maybe not meaning to, maybe because you were relishing the reveal too much.

Not the best presentation. ;)

[Atari]

The cards have lived in a metal Band-Aid box probably since the mid 1930s


Amazing find! That style Band-Aid box was used in the 1940's and '50's. The '30's version had a sliding lid. Just something to know when you pitch the AH's.

https://www.kilmerhouse.com/2013/04/collect-a-piece-of-johnson-johnson-history-band-aid-brand-adhesive-bandages-tins


Thanks. Yes, I was planning to figure out the date range of the can. I just assumed it would have been from when the original owner became a mature adult. Which as we all know is 18 years old on the nose. :p

[Atari]

Not the best presentation. ;)

He says, 5 pages later. ;)

Maybe you're right... instead of 1700 views over 5 pages of threads in just 8 hours we could have done better.

[CobbSpikedMe]

He says, 5 pages later. ;)

Maybe you're right... instead of 1700 views over 5 pages of threads in just 8 hours we could have done better.

Who's "we"? Just curious.

[Atari]

Those kind of behaviors just set off my scammer goosebumps, nearly as much as "I don't have time," "Selling as reprint," and "God bless."
It's good that you have the real thing, with a back story, and are going to help your uncle derive the best resale value for the collection. Maybe you're not used to posting on collecting message boards, but you set off a bunch of the flags, maybe not meaning to, maybe because you were relishing the reveal too much.

Sorry again.. it's a game-changing reveal (at least for the E121's and Herpolsheimer's specifically). I only began to learn about how rare these possibly were in the past 24-36 hours myself. At little exciting when you start to realize what you have. Sure it's not one of the many Ruth RC's out there - but very rare in its own right and pretty awesome considering the lot as a whole.

Too bad about the other one. I've wasn't able to find it. Is it one of those from the lot where they all had the pencil marks on them? If so, I guess this 1921 Herpolsheimer Ruth has the fact that it has never been altered going for it - even if it winds up in slightly lower condition.

[Atari]

Who's "we"? Just curious.

Me, Babe Ruth, and his 38 friends from the band-aid can? I guess I write"we" occasionally here as I am assisting another party (my uncle) help spread the word that this collection exists and the cards from it may be for sale.... soon.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Me, Babe Ruth, and his 38 friends from the band-aid can? I guess I write"we" occasionally here as I am assisting another party (my uncle) help spread the word that this collection exists and the cards from it may be for sale.... soon.

Got it, thanks.

[Atari]

PSA lists that they have seen one Ruth from this series:

https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball-cards/1921/herpolsheimers/40209


Do they have an image of it somewhere? How does that work? Or it's just graded by PSA and sitting in someones private collection somewhere?

[swarmee]

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/baseball-cards/1921-herpolsheimers/40209
The only ones PSA would have images of are the ones that have sold at auction that they're tracking through Auction Prices Realized or if people upload them to their website for a Set Registry. Maybe in an old SMR magazine article if someone allowed them to be photographed.
Other places to check: worthpoint, Sports Collectors Daily, PWCC marketplace, VCP, Google, etc.

[ValKehl]

Atari, nice find. As others have said, your Herps-Ruth card will fetch big $$. However, even though your group includes several other HOFers, I think you may be surprised as to how few $$ the other Herps cards will fetch. I say this because (1) 1921 Herps cards are too scarce for a collector to attempt to complete a set of them - scarcity often works against a card's value, (2) there are several other, identical, but scarcer 1921 issues - e.g., Leader Theatre, Haffner's Bread, Gassler's Bread, Clark's Bread, etc. that don't sell for all that much, and (3) most pre-War collectors (but not me) prefer the very colorful cards created by artists to the real-photo, black & white cards.

BTW, I'm thrilled to see that your find does not include a WaJo card, as I love having 1-of-1 cards. On the other hand, I'm saddened to note that your find includes a Sam Rice card. Oh well, one can't win them all!

[Cardboard_Mike]

It looks like your uncle will be retiring early.

[Atari]

Atari, nice find. As others have said, your Herps-Ruth card will fetch big $$. However, even though your group includes several other HOFers, I think you may be surprised as to how few $$ the other Herps cards will fetch. I say this because (1) 1921 Herps cards are too scarce for a collector to attempt to complete a set of them - scarcity often works against a card's value, (2) there are several other, identical, but scarcer 1921 issues - e.g., Leader Theatre, Haffner's Bread, Gassler's Bread, Clark's Bread, etc. that don't sell for all that much, and (3) most pre-War collectors (but not me) prefer the very colorful cards created by artists to the real-photo, black & white cards.

BTW, I'm thrilled to see that your find does not include a WaJo card, as I love having 1-of-1 cards. On the other hand, I'm saddened to note that your find includes a Sam Rice card. Oh well, one can't win them all!

Hey ValKehl - Thanks for your note. You make some good points there. Hard to tell what they might go for these days. Glad I didn't uptick your WaJo, but as far as the Sam Rice goes (E.C. Rice?)... maybe you'll wind up with 2 of 2? That would be almost as cool as having 1 of 1. :)

[ValKehl]

Hey ValKehl - Thanks for your note. You make some good points there. Hard to tell what they might go for these days. Glad I didn't uptick your WaJo, but as far as the Sam Rice goes (E.C. Rice?)... maybe you'll wind up with 2 of 2? That would be almost as cool as having 1 of 1. :)

Yes, HOFer Edgar Charles Rice is better known as Sam Rice.

[glchen]

Wow, cool, that's an awesome find! I love seeing new cards like this coming out.

[bbcard1]

Hard to judge the value of a good one-of-a-kind industry press release :)

Which of the 3 major services can currently issue a press release with nicely edited youtube video of them grading this lot? Would you watch that video?

I work in the industry and the press would not be as valuable as you might think. The major card companies have a huge backlog so they are not hurting for business. If you found a new grading company looking to make a splash, maybe, but they would not enhance the value to the degree of the big three.

[Atari]

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/baseball-cards/1921-herpolsheimers/40209
The only ones PSA would have images of are the ones that have sold at auction that they're tracking through Auction Prices Realized or if people upload them to their website for a Set Registry. Maybe in an old SMR magazine article if someone allowed them to be photographed.
Other places to check: worthpoint, Sports Collectors Daily, PWCC marketplace, VCP, Google, etc.

Thanks for the tips! So far no luck finding that other Ruth anywhere other than the PSA listing. Would be nice if they had more detail on it like when it was last seen/graded.

[swarmee]

One trick you can try is to find the cert numbers of the other cards you have found, like in the APR page on PSA's website. Then with the cert number of a known card from the set, you can type in nearby numbers to see if it was submitted with other from the set at the same time. I remember cert numbers starting with 90,000,000 and ones around 11,000,000 from the couple I spotted last night. Once you've found those, you can figure out which year it was submitted by finding modern cards that were submitted around the same cert numbers. It's a little tedious, but there is a workaround.

[xplainer]

He says, 5 pages later. ;)

Maybe you're right... instead of 1700 views over 5 pages of threads in just 8 hours we could have done better.

Posted after reading the thread all the way through.
Seems that is the correct way to do it.

[Atari]

Been going back over this thread and the broader 1921 Herpolsheimer's saga a bit more because these cards will be going to auction very soon. I'll let the auctioneer who has them make the official announcement, but I think they're in the best hands they could be in, especially in terms of knowledge and passion for these nearly impossible to find cards.

btw, it took quite some time to get to this point because my uncle unfortunately was unexpectedly diagnosed with stage IV liver cancer and died 20 days later in 2020. We have been going through mourning of his loss and the whole probate process since then. Really sucks as he was like my dad and big brother and best buddy all in one. He was a collector of many things and an auction goer himself. He would have really loved to watch the sale of these cards. RIP. :(

[Seven]

Always amazed at some of the finds that pop up on the boards. Absolutely incredible! I'm sorry for the loss of your uncle. I hope you have been able to find some closure.

[Yoda]

Put them on the B/T/S thread raw. They look good to me and you will save a bundle on grading fees.

[calvindog]

Put them on the B/T/S thread raw. They look good to me and you will save a bundle on grading fees.

I have dibs on Ruth.

[Madi$on18joshua]

So sorry for your loss, sounds like he would have really enjoyed watching the auction! which auction house are they with, I would love to make a go at a couple.

[NonSportDaniel]

Maybe the auction house can auction them as a group, and as individual cards and whichever goes for more will decide who wins them.

Sorry for your loss. I lost both of my parents in the last three years. Sucks getting old.

[autograf]

Maybe the auction house can auction them as a group, and as individual cards and whichever goes for more will decide who wins them.


Now, THAT's funny Daniel.

Well, one good thing in your favor is that during Covid, Ruth cards went up exponentially. Best of luck with the sale and disbursement of the funds to family. Sorry for the loss of your uncle.

[Brian Van Horn]

Not meant to rhyme but overjoyed to avoid.