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Vintagecatcher
02-09-2019, 02:00 PM
Since the producer of the C46 set is not printed on the backs of the cards, anyone know why the set is attributed to Imperial Tobacco?

I have never seen any documentation that confirms this connection. Is this assumption based strictly on the fact that larger holdings of the cards have been found in Canada?

Granted two of the teams shown in the set are Canadian in Toronto and Montreal, but where is the proof that the Canadian tobacco company Imperial Tobacco produced this set?

Would love to see some documentation.

Patrick

matthew
02-09-2019, 05:33 PM
Great question! I guess the only choices are Imperial Tobacco or the ATC. Here is an article with some theories

https://prewarcards.com/2018/02/19/c46-1912-imperial-tobacco-cards-set-baseball-canadian-minor-league/

The numbers on the back are the best indicator IMO. All the hockey & lacrosse series also have numbers on the front or back.

Vintagecatcher
02-09-2019, 06:32 PM
Thanks for the link Matt!

Maybe one of our Canadian board members can find a paper trail that confirms that Imperial Tobacco produced the set of 90 cards!

Patrick

Cozumeleno
02-09-2019, 06:37 PM
Unfortunately my page there won't show any definitive proof. Burdick's ACC calls it an Imperial issue, though, which has generally been enough to document it as such. Still, I'd love to see any other actual proof in pictures/documentation if others have it.

Vintagecatcher
02-09-2019, 08:15 PM
As Matt mentioned earlier in the thread, the fact that the cards are numbered is significant since all of the other period Imperial Tobacco cards also display this characteristic. Some like the C46 set are numbered on the back, while others have the numbers on the front.

When I was researching some of the other sets, I was also surprised to learn that hockey sets like C55 and C56 are also believed to be released by Imperial Tobacco, but like the C46 set they are considered an "unattributed" Canadian tobacco issue.

Also of note is the back of these three type cards is they list the particular sport series: BASEBALL SERIES, HOCKEY SERIES, and LACROSSE SERIES, respectively.





Patrick

Leon
02-10-2019, 01:39 PM
Interesting topic (to me.) One thing is most likely, Burdick had some sort of proof that these cards were produced/distributed from Imperial Tobacco or he wouldn't have printed it (not that he didn't make some apparent mistakes with new information found) in the American Card Catalog.

.

Cozumeleno
02-10-2019, 05:06 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree Leon. He definitely did have some mistakes but he was on the mark with 99% of the stuff he listed. My guess is that, while we haven't seen it, he had some evidence pointing him in that direction.

tedzan
02-10-2019, 05:44 PM
Patrick

I found these Game Birds cards (issued by Imperial Tobacco, circa 1910-1920) in my archives of miscellaneous stuff, perhaps they can provide some insight to your
question. These cards are numbered 1 - 30. A number which is consistent with the printing format of the C46 cards. That being, my theory is that there were 3 print
runs (30 cards each) in the production of the C46 set.

Anyhow, something to ponder over.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ImperialTobaccoBirds4.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ac46demmittohara.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Classic_Auctions
02-10-2019, 09:13 PM
We sold the original limestone used to print the lithography for both the C56 hockey and C60 lacrosse sets in 2011. While it doesn't in any way confirm attribution of the C46 baseball set, the presence of Toronto advertisers does suggest Canadian production for both the C56 and C60 issues, as many believed previously that the cards were printed in England, akin to the 1910-11 Sweet Caporal postcard set.

Hopefully this info might help.


https://www.classicauctions.net/mobile/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=112606

tedzan
02-11-2019, 05:45 PM
Patrick

I found these Game Birds cards (issued by Imperial Tobacco, circa 1910-1920) in my archives of miscellaneous stuff, perhaps they can provide some insight to your
question. These cards are numbered 1 - 30. A number which is consistent with the printing format of the C46 cards. That being, my theory is that there were 3 print
runs (30 cards each) in the production of the C46 set.

Anyhow, something to ponder over.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ImperialTobaccoBirds4.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ac46demmittohara.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Hi Patrick

Further research into these Imperial Tobacco Canadian (ITC) bird cards indicates that they were possibly printed at American Lithographic. Their fronts and their back descriptions
are identical to ALC's T43 Gold-Bordered Bird cards issued in 1911. I have an example of the T43 Oriole for comparison with this ITC Oriole card. And, when I get it back from PSA
I will post it here.

So, one might ask what do these Birds have to do with the C46 Baseball cards ?

ITC was a subsidiary of British American Tobacco (an ATC affiliate). The ITC factory which produced the cigarettes which the C46 cards were packaged with was based in Montreal.
However, it gets somewhat tricky from there. Although, the back descriptions are identical to the aforementioned T43 cards, the printed format is similar to other non-sport issues
produced in Great Britain.
Therefore, I am not sure if the C46 cards were printed by American Litho in NYC, or in Great Britain (and then shipped to the Montreal factory).

I will continue this research, as I (too) have wondered where the C46's originated from.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Imperial%20TobaccoBaltiOrioleBk.jpg



TED Z
.

Vintagecatcher
02-12-2019, 10:07 PM
Ted and Classic Auctions thanks for your responses.

The more that I have looked at early tobacco issues in an attempt to determine if it's possible to find out if Imperial Tobacco produced the C46 set, I have realized that the problem is much more complicated.

Here's the conundrum.

Asking the question, what was the purpose of tobacco cards?

The simple answer is that they served the functional purpose of protecting the cigarettes as a stiffener. More importantly, the cigarette manufacturers soon realized that if they used pictures of popular culture such: as athletes, actors, actresses, celebrities, animals, birds etc., they had a wonderful marketing opportunity. People would chase after these tobacco cards and the tobacco sales would increase dramatically.

So who benefited from this marketing strategy?

The easy answer, of course, is the cigarette manufacturers.

But they were not the only ones benefiting from the creation of tobacco cards. The actual creators of the cards, the lithograph companies themselves, also benefited greatly.

So some savvy cigarette manufacturers inserted tobacco cards in their products clearly identifying their product line. I'm also sure that the lithograph companies also produced cards without specific branding listed so they could reach a broader market.

So if this is true, American Lithographic Company may have created the C46 cards for the Imperial Tobacco Company of Canada. The only way to know for sure would be a paper trail detailing the promotion such as a newspaper ad or perhaps a contract between American Lithographic Company detailing the production of the tobacco cards for Imperial Tobacco or lastly an unopened Imperial Tobacco pack containing a C46 card.

There is little doubt that the American Lithographic Company most likely produced sets both here in the States as well as in Canada. The striking similarity between the design on the fronts of sets like the Minor League cards of the T205 set, the T80 Military Series, the T42 Bird Series, and Canadian bird series issues such as C14 and C45 leaves little doubt.

Although knowing exactly which products a specific tobacco card may have been packaged in may be lost to time, there is another indicator that at least helps with regards to card distribution.

Tobacco cards distributed in the US will exhibit the factory and district numbers, whereas, this info does not appear on any cards distributed in Canada.

C46s were no doubt distributed in Canada....but whether they were in packs of Imperial Tobacco remains to be seen.

Patrick

Leon
02-16-2019, 03:33 PM
Thanks for chiming in with good info! (and thanks to the others chiming in also)

We sold the original limestone used to print the lithography for both the C56 hockey and C60 lacrosse sets in 2011. While it doesn't in any way confirm attribution of the C46 baseball set, the presence of Toronto advertisers does suggest Canadian production for both the C56 and C60 issues, as many believed previously that the cards were printed in England, akin to the 1910-11 Sweet Caporal postcard set.

Hopefully this info might help.


https://www.classicauctions.net/mobile/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=112606

tedzan
02-26-2019, 12:06 PM
Ted and Classic Auctions thanks for your responses.

The more that I have looked at early tobacco issues in an attempt to determine if it's possible to find out if Imperial Tobacco produced the C46 set, I have realized that the problem is much more complicated.

Here's the conundrum.

Asking the question, what was the purpose of tobacco cards?

The simple answer is that they served the functional purpose of protecting the cigarettes as a stiffener. More importantly, the cigarette manufacturers soon realized that if they used pictures of popular culture such: as athletes, actors, actresses, celebrities, animals, birds etc., they had a wonderful marketing opportunity. People would chase after these tobacco cards and the tobacco sales would increase dramatically.

So who benefited from this marketing strategy?

The easy answer, of course, is the cigarette manufacturers.

But they were not the only ones benefiting from the creation of tobacco cards. The actual creators of the cards, the lithograph companies themselves, also benefited greatly.

So some savvy cigarette manufacturers inserted tobacco cards in their products clearly identifying their product line. I'm also sure that the lithograph companies also produced cards without specific branding listed so they could reach a broader market.

So if this is true, American Lithographic Company may have created the C46 cards for the Imperial Tobacco Company of Canada. The only way to know for sure would be a paper trail detailing the promotion such as a newspaper ad or perhaps a contract between American Lithographic Company detailing the production of the tobacco cards for Imperial Tobacco or lastly an unopened Imperial Tobacco pack containing a C46 card.

There is little doubt that the American Lithographic Company most likely produced sets both here in the States as well as in Canada. The striking similarity between the design on the fronts of sets like the Minor League cards of the T205 set, the T80 Military Series, the T42 Bird Series, and Canadian bird series issues such as C14 and C45 leaves little doubt.

Although knowing exactly which products a specific tobacco card may have been packaged in may be lost to time, there is another indicator that at least helps with regards to card distribution.

Tobacco cards distributed in the US will exhibit the factory and district numbers, whereas, this info does not appear on any cards distributed in Canada.

C46s were no doubt distributed in Canada....but whether they were in packs of Imperial Tobacco remains to be seen.

Patrick


Well stated.....Patrick

We appear to have similar thoughts regarding the possibility that the C46 cards were printed by American Lithographic (ALC). Shown here are 3 examples of ALC's
Bird series that you referred to. These 3 examples of the Oriole suggest that this could be true. As all 30 of the Bird images** in the Imperial Tobacco Canada C14
set are identical to ALC's T43 series that was printed and issued in 1911. And, the descriptions of these Birds on the backs of the C14 cards are exactly identical to
the T43 series of cards printed by ALC.

Furthermore, another factor which favors the printing of C46 set by ALC is that the C14 set comprises of a series of 30 cards. I'm a numbers guy, who sees the 90
card C46 set comprising of three series of 30-cards each.

Having said all that, I'm really mystified that the C14 cards were printed with vivid colors; whereas, the C46 cards are a drab brown color. This is inconsistent with
ALC's printing style. This contrast between the C14 and C46 cards gives me cause to pause in my thinking regarding ALC having printed the C46 cards.
Perhaps, a printing firm in Montreal (where the Canadian Imperial Tobacco Co. was based) produced the C46 cards.

Perhaps, some knowledgeable person on this forum will chime in here with specific information which confirms where the C46 cards were printed. And if they were
inserted in Canadian Imperial Tobacco cigarette packs.



C14 (circa 1911 - ?) ……...…......…...........C45 (circa 1911)…….......…T43 (circa 1911)
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ImperialTobaccoBaltimoreOrioleX.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1911C45BirdsBaltimoreOriole.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910T43xOriole.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Imperial%20TobaccoBaltiOrioleBk.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1911C45BirdsOrioleBk.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910T43xOrioleBk.jpg



** Note…..Why the images are reversed on the C14 cards is a mystery to me.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Leon
03-04-2019, 03:08 PM
Great lithography on the birdies. Thanks again for sharing.

Well stated.....Patrick

We appear to have similar thoughts regarding the possibility that the C46 cards were printed by American Lithographic (ALC). Shown here are 3 examples of ALC's
Bird series that you referred to. These 3 examples of the Oriole suggest that this could be true. As all 30 of the Bird images** in the Imperial Tobacco Canada C14
set are identical to ALC's T43 series that was printed and issued in 1911. And, the descriptions of these Birds on the backs of the C14 cards are exactly identical to
the T43 series of cards printed by ALC.

Furthermore, another factor which favors the printing of C46 set by ALC is that the C14 set comprises of a series of 30 cards. I'm a numbers guy, who sees the 90
card C46 set comprising of three series of 30-cards each.

Having said all that, I'm really mystified that the C14 cards were printed with vivid colors; whereas, the C46 cards are a drab brown color. This is inconsistent with
ALC's printing style. This contrast between the C14 and C46 cards gives me cause to pause in my thinking regarding ALC having printed the C46 cards.
Perhaps, a printing firm in Montreal (where the Canadian Imperial Tobacco Co. was based) produced the C46 cards.

Perhaps, some knowledgeable person on this forum will chime in here with specific information which confirms where the C46 cards were printed. And if they were
inserted in Canadian Imperial Tobacco cigarette packs.



C14 (circa 1911 - ?) ……...…......…...........C45 (circa 1911)…….......…T43 (circa 1911)
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ImperialTobaccoBaltimoreOrioleX.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1911C45BirdsBaltimoreOriole.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910T43xOriole.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Imperial%20TobaccoBaltiOrioleBk.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1911C45BirdsOrioleBk.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910T43xOrioleBk.jpg



** Note…..Why the images are reversed on the C14 cards is a mystery to me.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

tedzan
03-05-2019, 09:01 PM
Great lithography on the birdies. Thanks again for sharing.


Hi Leon

Here are a few more colorful Birdies from this 30-card set for you to admire.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/C45Birds5cards.jpg


The Canadian Imperial Tobacco set is a quite a mystery. I was hoping by now that some one would have chimed in here with insight into where the C46 BB cards were produced,
and how they were marketed. One fact that's for sure, they are a 1912 issue (based on the bios of most of the subjects)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ac46fitzphelps.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/c46fitzphelpsb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ac46demmittohara.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/C46DemmittxOHaraBks.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

squelch
12-14-2019, 11:37 PM
In 2016 the 1st Annual Canadian Baseball History Conference was held in St Mary's, ON Canada. St. Mary's is the home of the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. I presented a paper on this card set at the that initial conference.

When I began my research, my first move was to contact Imperial Tobacco. Their head office was (probably still is) in Montreal. They would not discuss any promotions with their products. I assume this is because they are in great fear of lawsuits.

That same year (1912) as the baseball cards, Imperial Tobacco put out the c57 Hockey Card Set. That set is very similar to the baseball card set with numbers on the backs and absolutely no clue as to the producer.

That c57 set is very well known in Canada. The cards came out of Derby Cigarettes. Those packages are very hard to find. There is a metal reproduction of the Derby Cig. Pkg. on eBay.

I would assume that Derby Cigarette Packs would have also held the c46 baseball cards.

In those days, baseball was at least as popular in Canada as was hockey. There were more baseball leagues in Canada than there are teams today.

I regret that I have been unable to find a definitive source (other than Burdick) to attribute the cards to ITC. However, I have never encountered any doubt as to the set's origin.

G1911
12-15-2019, 01:34 AM
This is a great topic to bring up. I have been struggling with it for some time as well.

I collect C46 and C52, a clone of the boxing and multi-sport T218 set. Both are attributed to Imperial Tobacco in every resource I can find, with no real evidence to support it. The C52's are clearly printed by American Lithographic, the printer of T218, and many have been found in Canada. Those two points are facts, however, most of my C52's came from an original collection in the American South, and Imperial Tobacco is mentioned nowhere on the cards, or in any documents from the time, or in any known ads, etc. I'm not sold that the C52 were even solely a Canadian issue.


Any set with a Canadian association and/or has card numbers seems to be said to be an Imperial Tobacco set, as if it is a known fact. This may be true, but I think there are plenty of reasons for doubt and room for other possibilities.


It strikes me as odd that many of these 'Imperial' sets don't mention the brand or company. The Bird Series Ted posted is a great example of the many Imperial issues that do mention the company, and are definitely Imperial cards. Why insert a cigarette card without any advertising, especially when the printer was set up to do this? C46 has no American counterpart, but C52's American clone, T218, features adds for Mecca, Hassan or Tolstoi cigarettes. Wouldn't Imperial want American Lithography to put their name on it, instead of changing the series captions to remove any reference to the brand?


From a larger perspective, I think this is a great example of the importance of separating opinions and proposed ideas from actual facts in the hobby. Many of the 'facts' listed in guides, books, threads and elsewhere are not facts; they are speculation that is one of several possible explanations that fit the actual facts.


It may well be true, that these and the other sets were all Imperial Tobacco issues. It may be the best explanation and theory for these cards existence and how they were issued and produced. Theories that reasonably fit the known facts are a good thing, but I think the hobby should stop repeating the theories as if they are the true gospel. Very little of what is said about vintage cards can be reasonably proven to be a fact, which is half the fun of researching them and trying to clear up the mysteries, or identify new ones.