Most underappreciated/undercollected players

[phikappapsi]

Hey fellas - this is probably a topic that's been hashed out on these boards a few times; but who doesn't like circling back on old conversations?

Just curious if anyone has strong feelings about guys they think are just massively undervalued, under-collected, or underappreciated in the hobby relative to their contribution to the game.

For me; I've always found it curious just how small the premium is for Rogers Hornsby. Maybe just the era he played in was that gap period that seems to exist between the Tobacco and Gum card waves? Or maybe he's just not a name that gets enough play in the history of the game? But one of the greatest pure hitters in the history of the game, right there in the conversation with Cobb and Teddy, but seems to get very little love.

[rainier2004]

Pre was - WaJo. I know, he is collected by a bunch of guys but still... He is arguably the best pitcher in history, was always a class act and riddled with misfortune throughout his life. IMO he isn't collected near as much as the other 4 in the inaugural HOF class and his cards seem to be worth the least of those.

Post war - Al Kaline, Mr. Tiger, as solid as they get. His lifetime stats aren't quite as impressive as some but he is as big of art of an organization as player can get. Does anyone remember he refused his bonus one year b/c he said he didn't play well enough to deserve it?

[Throttlesteer]

Harry Heilmann. Overshadowed by Cobb, but quietly lethal at the plate.

[Hankphenom]

Pre was - WaJo. I know, he is collected by a bunch of guys but still... He is arguably the best pitcher in history, was always a class act and riddled with misfortune throughout his life. IMO he isn't collected near as much as the other 4 in the inaugural HOF class and his cards seem to be worth the least of those.

Post war - Al Kaline, Mr. Tiger, as solid as they get. His lifetime stats aren't quite as impressive as some but he is as big of art of an organization as player can get. Does anyone remember he refused his bonus one year b/c he said he didn't play well enough to deserve it?

Walter did suffer several devastating tragedies, beginning with the death of his young daughter in 1921 and especially his wife's passing suddenly in 1930 at the age of 36. He never really got over that one. But "riddled with misfortune all his life" overstates the case, in fact he had the kind of charmed life most people could only dream about until he was in his mid-30s.

[stutor]

Grover Cleveland Alexander

[luciobar1980]

Eddie Collins

[WahooSam]

Larry Doby, Hank Thompson, Willard Brown and Dan Bankhead. Jackie, Campy and Satchel get all the attention.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank Robinson.
To some extent, Stan Musial.

[Fred]

Indian Bob Johnson

[tmw2ward]

Mickey Charles Mantel

[Bram99]

Harold Baines?

Just kidding.

Early 1900’s: Hornsby, Alexander.Chase
1930’s: Dean, Gehringer and Greenberg
Golden age 40’s-50’s: Doby, Allie Reynolds,
1980’s: Golden and Fernando
1990’s: Visquel
All Martinez team: Edgar, Pedro
All Morris team: Jack
Flashes in the pan: Karl Spooner and Herb Score (due to injury)

[rats60]

Mickey Charles Mantel

I have a 1955 Armour coin of him.

[aloondilana]

For a 6 year period Hornsby was better than anyone in the game.
He put up Cobb numbers but with power.

Jimmie Foxx to me, is by far the most undervalued in the hobby.
Just take a good look at his career stats.
He deserves so much better than this hobby gives demand for his cards.

[mechanicalman]

Lefty Grove, Bill Terry, Al Simmons

[The Nasty Nati]

Jimmie Foxx.

You could argue he was the greatest player of the 1930s. And yes, possibly better than Lou Gehrig during that era.

[riggs336]

Kid Nichols.

[Bigdaddy]

Post-War - Joe Morgan

[BearBailey]

Jim Palmer

[kdixon]

Lefty O’Doul 4th highest batting average all time.

[Rare Stuff]

King Kelly

[CobbSpikedMe]

King Kelly

I love King Kelly stuff. Is he really underappreciated? I would this with 19th century collectors he's pretty popular.

[bigred1]

Jimmie Foxx has my vote

[GregZakwin]

Zack Wheat

[conor912]

I hear the hobby is just now coming around to God given gifts of Harold Baines.

[darwinbulldog]

Kid Nichols, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, and Warren Spahn.

[rats60]

Jimmie Foxx.

You could argue he was the greatest player of the 1930s. And yes, possibly better than Lou Gehrig during that era.

Not really WAR from 1930-1938

Gehrig 73.3
Foxx 65.9
Ott 63.0
Gehringer 56.2
Arky Vaughan 48.0

Now if you want to add in Foxx's 39 season, it looks closer because Gehrig was fighting ASK, but it is Gehrig and it isn't close.

I will throw out Arky Vaughan. He comes in at #5 and he wasn't in the majors in 1930 & 1931 (age 18-19). Bill James has him as the #2 SS all time with a 136 OPS + which is unreal for the position. However, he is collected as a low level Hofer.

Eddie Collins and GC Alexander for the pre- Goudey era. For Post WAR Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Tom Seaver and Johnny Bench are underappreciated to me.

[KCRfan1]

rats, that's a great observation about Seaver. Aside from his rookie card, Seaver is affordable and almost never mentioned among greats of the game.

[oldjudge]

From my perspective it is John Ward. If you ask me to name the most important people in 19th century baseball I would say Al Spalding, John Ward, Harry Wright and Henry Chadwick, in that order. Ward was a great pitcher who threw the second perfect game in NL history. After he threw out his arm he became an all star shortstop, batting third for the power laden N Y Giant lineup that also had Ewing, Connor and O’Rourke. He married Helen Dauvray who donated the trophy, The Dauvray Cup, that was awarded to the champion of baseball from 1887-1893. He organized and was President of the player’s union, and orchestrated the formation of the Player’s League. While a player with the Giants he received his law degree at Columbia. After his baseball career was over he provided legal advice to players and, in his spare time, managed to become a champion golfer.

[Tao_Moko]

Eddie Collins pre-war and Rickey Henderson post war.

[mrvster]

Maris and Duffy

[skil55voy]

Hank Greenberg and Curt Flood

[Marchillo]

My first thought was Frank Robinson but how about Hank Aaron.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Lots of good candidates on the Negro League side but I'll go with Oscar Charleston, great 5 tool player.

[ejharrington]

Generally, stars who fall short of HOF, especially if there's still a shot they can get in later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

rats, that's a great observation about Seaver. Aside from his rookie card, Seaver is affordable and almost never mentioned among greats of the game.

I agree. One could call him the greatest pitcher of all time and while one would certainly get arguments, it would not be an indefensible claim. To me it's absurd that Ryan has so much more glamour among collectors. Ryan did not hold a candle to Seaver as a pitcher.

[clydepepper]

Hank Greenberg and Curt Flood

Lots of good candidates on the Negro League side but I'll go with Oscar Charleston, great 5 tool player.


and Tom Seaver - I modeled my 'drop-n-drive' delivery on his. Enjoyed watching Huddy do it too.

[Paul S]

I agree. One could call him the greatest pitcher of all time and while one would certainly get arguments, it would not be an indefensible claim. To me it's absurd that Ryan has so much more glamour among collectors. Ryan did not hold a candle to Seaver as a pitcher.
Agreed. But he did hold a great headlock to Ventura:o

[Prince Hal]

Allie Reynolds - Lifetime 182/107 and 48 saves. He was even better in the post season at 7/2 with a 2.79 ERA. His first 5 years were with the Indians too. He was a 6 time all-star. He threw two no hitters in one year.

[Buythatcard]

Roger Maris and Willie Mays

[Touch'EmAll]

I respectfully disagree about Ryan "not being able to hold a candle to Tom Seaver." Yes, Seaver was great. But c'mon folks, we're not talking Ted Williams vs. Harold Baines here. Seaver garnered 98.84 HOF voting percentage (#2 all time), Ryan was at 98.79% (#3 all time) - pretty close. I won't get into any records. Jeesh.

[rats60]

I respectfully disagree about Ryan "not being able to hold a candle to Tom Seaver." Yes, Seaver was great. But c'mon folks, we're not talking Ted Williams vs. Harold Baines here. Seaver garnered 98.84 HOF voting percentage (#2 all time), Ryan was at 98.79% (#3 all time) - pretty close. I won't get into any records. Jeesh.

I will

Career WAR
Seaver 110.1
Ryan 81.8

162 game averages
Seaver. Ryan
W/L 16-11. 14-13
% .603. .526
ERA. 2.86. 3.19
K. 190. 246
WHIP 1.121. 1.247
FIP. 3.04. 2.97
ERA+ 127. 112

Ryan has the advantage in strike outs and no hitters. Seaver has the advantage in everything else, most importantly in run prevention and value that leads to team wins. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

[nat]

The answer is probably, like someone said upthread, a great player who isn't in the hall (yet). Or maybe a great player who played between the tobacco era and the gum era.

Under the former heading I'll nominate Bill Dahlen and Lou Whitaker. (Although Whitaker playing from the 70s to the early 90s really limits his collectability in terms of baseball cards anyone might actually want.) Under the latter heading I'll second (or third?) the nomination of Grover Cleveland Alexander. He's basically a half step ahead of Matty in terms of career production,* but not held in nearly as high regard by collectors.

*
Pete: 135 ERA+, 5190 innings, 120 WAR
Matty: 136 ERA+, 4788 innings, 104 WAR
That's a dead heat in performance and a small edge to Alexander in durability.

(I imagine that the fact that Pete's WAR advantage is larger than his IP advantage is due to better defensive players on the Giants, but I'm not going to dig into the calculations to verify that.)

[HistoricNewspapers]

I don't think it is preposterous to view Ryan in the same circle as Seaver. Seaver had the better career, but not by a ton.

If one uses a new metic such as WAR, then Ryan checks in at 20th all-time for pitchers.

If using traditional methods, Ryan is a 300 game winner and the all-time leader in strikeouts.

A big part of Ryan's drawing power is that he was still a star in his 40's. At age 40,41,42,and 43 he lead the league in strikeouts each of those years. At age 43 and age 44 he led the league in WHIP and K/IP.

In other words, Ryan was a marvel to a generation of kids that watched in in the 1960's/70's and the kids that watched him in the 1980's/90's. Most older pitchers are no longer a spectacle at the end such as Ryan was.

Add that Ryan became the poster boy for pitching mechanics at the end of his career...you have a generational icon.

And again, for the newer measurement methods he still is ranked 20th all time in WAR.

Ryan has a resume worthy of his card collecting popularity.

[fairport4]

If anyone in the vintage collecting community can identify a Jim Shaw autograph (signed cut, government card, album page) of the Senators ("Grunting" Jim Shaw" 1913-1921) out there it would be appreciated.. they seem to be almost non-existent although Shaw lived to 1962.. let me know if you have one in your collection..thank you

Billy Hamilton (sliding Billy Hamilton) is obviously a rare Hall of Fame autograph and was part of dead ball era (he died in 1940) but given his involvement in business and real estate in Mass. there must be some autographs out there or a signed letter or official document..

[olecow]

Eddie Mathews and Warren Spahn

[bbcard1]

Prewar: Billy Sunday
Postwar: Bill White / Curt Flood

[bnorth]

Eddie Mathews and Warren Spahn

I agree with Eddie Mathews. Being a Mathews collector I like it though.:D Now if his rookie wasn't a hi # 52 Topps.

[packs]

Joe Wood. His Cracker Jack and T207 are expensive but most of his other cards are treated like they're commons.

[Golfcollector]

Top 26 all time WAR list that seem underappreciated ( I had to include #26 because my initial thought was WTF? 26th in career WAR?
#9 Rogers Hornsby
#10 Eddie Colins
#16 Mel Ott
#18 Frank Robinson
#20 Joe Morgan
#23 Carl Yastrzemski
#26 Adrian Beltre


My favorite Crawford comes in at 47 on the top 50...but no one pay attention so I can get some of his stuff on the cheap :D:D:D

[jchcollins]

Frank Robinson I have always felt was underappreciated given his stats in a post-war hobby that sometimes seems to drool on Mantle, Mays, Williams, Aaron, and Clemente as if they were the only marquee names.

Another just for me personally is Roy Campanella. When I first started collecting old cards as a kid in the 1980's, you heard a lot more about him. He still routinely turns up along with Hartnett, Cochrane, Dickey, Berra, Bench, Fisk, Piazza et al. in the GOAT debates for catcher - but it doesn't seem like a ton of folks out there collect him. If you consider a career that was cut short on both ends - it was actually cut shorter by his delay into the majors on the front side of his career than it was the accident at the end of it, I believe - then I think he really does qualify as one of the greatest players - even though his stats don't necessarily show it. I guess there is also the factor of Jackie Robinson - if you are going after the historical aspect of trailblazing Brooklyn Dodgers - you are probably going to lean towards Robinson over Campy.

[jchcollins]

. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

It does? I'm asking straight-faced here, I haven't spent a ton of time researching it. All I know is that the '67 Seaver in the high numbers is an incredibly difficult (ahem, at least expensive) card to find in high grade - and one that for my own set I doubt I'll be getting even in mid-grade for quite some time. Quick look and I see a PSA 10 '67 Seaver that went for close to $25K back in 2012. The most recent PSA 9 '68 Ryan / Koosman #177 went for about $20K last week. Am I missing something? Comparable maybe, but not way out of line. Ryan is the more popular player, Seaver RC is easily I think the more difficult card. I'm not sure how comparable they are in mid-range graded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will

Career WAR
Seaver 110.1
Ryan 81.8

162 game averages
Seaver. Ryan
W/L 16-11. 14-13
% .603. .526
ERA. 2.86. 3.19
K. 190. 246
WHIP 1.121. 1.247
FIP. 3.04. 2.97
ERA+ 127. 112

Ryan has the advantage in strike outs and no hitters. Seaver has the advantage in everything else, most importantly in run prevention and value that leads to team wins. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

Cy Youngs. Seaver 3 Ryan 0.
JAWS metric. Seaver 8th all time Ryan 30th.

[packs]

Even if Seaver was a better pitcher it should come as no surprise why Ryan is more popular and collected. I would think that between the two, people would be more excited to see a game Ryan pitched in his prime than Seaver. When Ryan pitched anything could happen. You could see a no-hitter, 20 K's, or 20 wild pitches. You could expect a decent game with Seaver on the mound, but what else?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even if Seaver was a better pitcher it should come as no surprise why Ryan is more popular and collected. I would think that between the two, people would be more excited to see a game Ryan pitched in his prime than Seaver. When Ryan pitched anything could happen. You could see a no-hitter, 20 K's, or 20 wild pitches. You could expect a decent game with Seaver on the mound, but what else?

A "decent" game? Good grief. As someone said, maybe Reggie, Tom Seaver was so good, blind people came to the park to hear him pitch. The man was an artist, the quintessential pitcher.

[Snapolit1]

A "decent" game? Good grief. As someone said, maybe Reggie, Tom Seaver was so good, blind people came to the park to hear him pitch. The man was an artist, the quintessential pitcher.

I have no doubt that there are new stats guys out there who will patiently explain to you that Tom Seaver really sucked. I hear one coming now.

[Snapolit1]

Willie Mays.

[packs]

I don't know what else to say. Are you suggesting Tom Seaver was as exciting to watch as Nolan Ryan? I don't think many people will agree. It's like saying Beethoven was better than the Beatles.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know what else to say. Are you suggesting Tom Seaver was as exciting to watch as Nolan Ryan? I don't think many people will agree. It's like saying Beethoven was better than the Beatles.

It depends on what you're looking for. For people who appreciate sublime pitching, then absolutely. By your metric people would rather watch Dave Kingman than Hank Aaron, which is fine, it's all good I guess.

Ryan was a great pitcher no doubt. When he was on and could put the fastball on the corners he was virtually untouchable, but he never could do it consistently and frequently walked a ton of men and could be hit if you waited on him. Seaver, to me, is a very very top rank elite pitcher, Ryan a tier or two below.

[gonzo]

Agree with Grover Cleveland Alexander.

I think a lot of his underappreciation in terms of collecting just comes from the fact that his career fell after the T206 issues and before the 1933 Goudey issue. Other than the 14-15 CJs and the T222 Fatima, and a few exhibits, there aren’t really many attractive cards of him from during his career. (And the M101-2 Sporting News supplement, which is probably my favorite contemporary issue of his, though not a “card”.)

[rats60]

It does? I'm asking straight-faced here, I haven't spent a ton of time researching it. All I know is that the '67 Seaver in the high numbers is an incredibly difficult (ahem, at least expensive) card to find in high grade - and one that for my own set I doubt I'll be getting even in mid-grade for quite some time. Quick look and I see a PSA 10 '67 Seaver that went for close to $25K back in 2012. The most recent PSA 9 '68 Ryan / Koosman #177 went for about $20K last week. Am I missing something? Comparable maybe, but not way out of line. Ryan is the more popular player, Seaver RC is easily I think the more difficult card. I'm not sure how comparable they are in mid-range graded.

A PSA 9 Ryan did sell for 20k. The last PSA 9 Seaver sold for less than 7k. So if you think 35% is comparable then it doesn't seem out of line. However, I really don't think that a card a card with a ~30% print run should be selling at 35%, it should be selling at 3 to 4 times. And that is if they are equal players, but Ryan is not as good as Seaver.

My brother and I collected in 1967-1968. Neither of us ever got a Seaver RC. He found 1 pack of 5 67 high numbers and I never had a 67 high number until I purchased the whole series for each of us from Card Collectors Co. I had 5 Ryan Rcs and he had 10. The Ryan RC is a very common card, the Seaver is a very difficult SP high number. So, yes it is a joke that Seaver isn't worth many times the Ryan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Moreover, most Seavers are tilted, have print bubbles, etc.

[clydepepper]

Willie Mays.

+1


Bingo!


There have always been a lot of folks who considered Willie the best player ever...or, at least the second best.

However, it's been several years since I've heard his name mentioned that way.

Don't let the fact that he's not dealing with being old and deaf too well cloud your memories of exactly how great a player he was.

By finishing his career as a mere shadow of the player he was...and, doing so in New York, may have put more emphasis on the end and not the peak of his career.


You guys are comparing the value of the Seaver and Ryan RCs...well, there's a much bigger gap between Mantle's '52 non-RC and Mays's '52 Non-RC.

Most of us can afford a Willie (mine is a PSA-6), but the Mantle in that grade or even a PSA-3 is way, way out of my league!

=

[Peter_Spaeth]

Except for 66T where Mays is the #1 card, I believe in general Mantles sell for several times what Mayses sell for.

[JollyElm]

There are 9 billion Nolan Ryan rookie cards out there, but 8,999,999,999 of them are way off center.

[7nohitter]

Harmon Killebrew

[fairport4]

I have not seen a Jim Shaw autograph appear in any of the ususal sports memorabilia auctions and Ebay over the past several years of sports collecting and am enquiring if any one either possesses a Shaw autograph or cut or knows of one which another collector has. Given he lived to 1962, there should be late in his life autographs available to the sports marketplace but the supply seems limited to almost non-existent.

[Tripp Trapp]

I’m partial to the “what could have been”...
Addie Joss
Smoky Joe
Buck Weaver
Ross Youngs

[Bram99]

I have not seen a Jim Shaw autograph appear in any of the ususal sports memorabilia auctions and Ebay over the past several years of sports collecting and am enquiring if any one either possesses a Shaw autograph or cut or knows of one which another collector has. Given he lived to 1962, there should be late in his life autographs available to the sports marketplace but the supply seems limited to almost non-existent.

There was a guy who this board "outed" recently would could probably make one for you.

[Bram99]

Frank Robinson I have always felt was underappreciated given his stats in a post-war hobby that sometimes seems to drool on Mantle, Mays, Williams, Aaron, and Clemente as if they were the only marquee names.

Another just for me personally is Roy Campanella. When I first started collecting old cards as a kid in the 1980's, you heard a lot more about him. He still routinely turns up along with Hartnett, Cochrane, Dickey, Berra, Bench, Fisk, Piazza et al. in the GOAT debates for catcher - but it doesn't seem like a ton of folks out there collect him. If you consider a career that was cut short on both ends - it was actually cut shorter by his delay into the majors on the front side of his career than it was the accident at the end of it, I believe - then I think he really does qualify as one of the greatest players - even though his stats don't necessarily show it. I guess there is also the factor of Jackie Robinson - if you are going after the historical aspect of trailblazing Brooklyn Dodgers - you are probably going to lean towards Robinson over Campy.

+1

[fairport4]

anyone come across a Jim Shaw autograph (he played for the Senators from 1913 to 1921 deceased 1962).... have been looking for a while and even large scale vintage autograph collections coming to market in auction catalogues are missing this autograph

if you find one out there please contact me

[Bram99]

I will

The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

This post may be obvious to many on this board, but it bears writing for those who haven't thought about what PSA populations really signal.

These arguments involving PSA populations sometimes miss a couple of important elements other than card scarcity - popularity and card value. In terms of under-appreciated things, this is something that is truly underappreciated about the PSA population numbers.

While one card may be a short print and the other one not, the relative PSA population of two cards (not total population of raw + graded) is a factor of not only the relative scarcity/supply of the card, but of other things.

The 1952 Topps #311 Mantle has about 1500 graded copies. It is a high number with lower supply than cards in the low series. The 1952 Topps #310 George Metkovich is part of the less-scarce, low number series. So there are likely more of them in the world today than the Mantle. But there are only 450 or so PSA graded copies of #310. This doesn't mean it is more scarce. It means people have submitted this card fewer times to PSA than the Mantle. Both the popularity of the player and the potential profit/gain on having a card graded drives the PSA population. So be careful in using PSA pop as a proxy for relative scarcity.


It is hard to argue from that Ryan was way more of a collectors' favorite than Seaver. Ryan had the flashier career with the strikeouts, no-hitters, being dominant into his mid-40's almost, the noogies to Ventura's head. Seaver just doesn't have those memorable events. So Ryan's RC was more desireable, which made it more valuable, which caused people to send it in for grading more frequently. While the Seaver may be more scarce in total raw + graded population, these other factors play into Ryan having a larger PSA population.

That said, my Dad was a pitcher and he watched baseball avidly. He thought that Seaver was the best of his generation.

[rats60]

Those people who have been in the hobby for a long time know that the Seaver is much rarer than Ryan. If anything the Ryan RC is under represented on the PSA site due to it being so common that kids played with them and there are a lot of them in poor grades. PSA 1 shows 174. PSA 2 347. PSA 7 1488. There are a lot more low grade Ryan's than NM ones, but they aren't worth grading.

Seaver on the other hand was issued in low numbers being a 7th series card that had limited distribution in packs. A very large percentage of these cards entered the hobby through dealers selling to collectors. A much higher percentage are in higher grades than the Ryans.

[Steve D]

Another aspect to consider in the Ryan/Seaver argument, is the effect Jerry Koosman plays. He was a pretty decent and popular pitcher himself.

Ryan has Koosman riding shotgun for him, while Seaver has someone named Bill Denehy.


Steve

[ls7plus]

Eddie Mathews and Warren Spahn

+1 as to post-war: the second best (only to Schmidt) third baseman of all time and a 363 game winner with 13 20-win seasons (after all, that's what a pitcher is supposed to do for his team is win, isn't it?).

Pre-war, I'd have to go with Foxx and Hornsby, although RATS 60 is right that Foxx is behind Gehrig by all rational sabermetric measures. But Hornsby--three .400 seasons with good to great power, .358 lifetime BA and two triple crowns (yes I know that NL league batting averages were .280 or better during Hornsby's rein as the NL's best hitter, but still)!!!

Best holiday wishes to all,

Larry