Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[kailes2872]

I don't tend to be a HOF snob. But I heard about the announcement for Baines and Smith and said "Wait, What?" There was never a time when I thought, Harold Baines defined his generation. I think that about Garvey. I think that about Mattingly - but never about Baines . I liked him, but he is the definition of the hall of pretty/very good. He didn't have huge counting stats either

Smith actually has a better argument if you are a fan of relievers in the HOF. At least he was the all-time saves leader at one point. I am not a fan of relievers in the hall. This isn't a popular position with most, but I think that most relievers would have preferred to be the 4th or 5th starter in the rotation but they didn't have the 3rd pitch or the stamina. But I digress... (and yes, I know that Rivera will get in and people will say that he did his job better than any other player did theirs... but I don't like it and we can agree to disagree)

Super surprised about this - and kinda bummed at the watering down of the hall.

[sycks22]

Baines never got above 6.1% of the HOF vote and was off the ballot in 4 years. It's now the hall of "he's ok"

[gregr2]

Gotta agree with the watering down comment. Doesn’t seem like either of these guys made that significant of a contribution and/or had a real HOF career. High level contributors but not HOF.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[glynparson]

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

[RedsFan1941]

you really don't think "hall of fame" implies "great"?

[Big Six]

Well, all I can take away from this is that Mattingly will get in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gregr2]

At this rate, someday I’ll get in!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[iwantitiwinit]

Someone that averages .289, 22hr, 93 rbi's as a right fielder/dh and played in a single world series is not a hall of famer in my opinion.

[Koufax32fan]

Baines played for a long time - thanks to the DH rule. He led the league in one offensive category, once in his career (1984, slugging percentage). He received MVP votes in only 4 seasons, never finishing higher than 9th! All star in 6 seasons, out of 22.

Even as a Hall of "Fame", he certainly wasn't famous or thought of as being that great during his career. I grew up in Chicago in the 70's and 80's; I don't recall too many magazines with his photo on the cover (other than 2 Baseball Digests).

The Hall is certainly being watered down.

I won't even get into Smith, except to point out that his 1,286 innings pitched will be the 5th fewest. Two of the guys with fewer IPs are Satchel and the Babe. The other 2 are Hoffman and Sutter. (Rivera had 1,283 IPs and was head and shoulders better than those 3 other relievers.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good grief. BAINES??????????????????????????????????

[clydepepper]

Hey, Guys - I think I may have a chance next time.


Please vote for me...I only got to College level...but, what the hell, while the doors left open.


But seriously, no one who has already been through the BWAA without getting in should get in before Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant!

The hall of fame now has lower-case letters.

=

[RedsFan1941]

suddenly johnny sain doesn’t seem as ridiculous of a suggestion

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baines does not hold a candle to Albert Belle or Dick Allen or even Dale Murphy.

Smith in but no Tiant or Tommy John?

[Fred]

Getting closer to the Hall of Lame...

I'd have taken Joe Carter or Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle over Baines.

At least Carter a had 10x100RBI years in 16 seasons and Joey had 9x100RBI years in 12 seasons.

Baines and Carter had similar lifetime SA (both more than 30 points below .500). Joey had a respectable lifetime SA of .564, pretty good.

In any case it's done so congratulations to Baines (and Smith).

Could you imagine if Vegas took odds on selections. Baines would have been a long shot (IMO).

[clydepepper]

Seriously Guys - would anyone like to start a 'grassroots' effort to get me elected?

WHAT A JOKE!

[Jason19th]

Lee Smith is long over due- he was in the generation that redefined the position and he ended his careers with the all time lead in the main thing that he did - name another star where the all time leader had to wait years for induction. Furthermore for as much as everyone wants to denigrate the save, there is a reason that most pitchers may have a good year or two but burn out hundreds of saves short of 478- it hard and the leash is short

Harold Baines should go down as one of the worst- Chick Hafey bad- if he’s in then Andres Galarage and Edgar Martinez have to fly in, then we have to make room for all of the guys who would have been able to play until they are 40 because of the dh -

Joe Adcock
Gil Hodges
Buzz Arlett
Ted Kluziski (sp)
Roy Seivers
Greg luzinski (sp)
Vic Wetz
Mickey Vernon
Hank Sauer
Hank Bauer
Dolf Camilli
Al Rosen
Gavy Cravath
Wally Moses
About 100 guys that I can’t think of right now

[KCRfan1]

The REAL travesty is George Steinbrenner receiving 4 votes or less. If anyone of the eligible were to be elected, it should have been Steinbrenner. That man was a HoF'r all the way.

[David W]

The 1981 and 1994 strike years cost Baines 3000 hits or he’d already be in.

I still don’t think he stands out as an all time great though

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fred McGriff surely has a more impressive resume than Baines, no? Larry Walker? Dwight Evans? Dave Parker?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 3 (560), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (655), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 66 (311), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 44 (121), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 25):
72.7 career WAR / 42.9 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS

[clydepepper]

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.


Me too, Peter

This is who we can blame:

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era features Hall of Fame members Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith.

=

[Fred]

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

That's funny! :p

[Peter_Spaeth]

Me too, Peter

This is who we can blame:

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era features Hall of Fame members Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith.

=

Too many ballplayers on that committee, cronyism. Like when all those above average 1930s infielders got in. If I were Dick Allen I would be disgusted.

[AGuinness]

The Baseball Hall of Fame voting, in exactly the same manner as post-season awards, is basically a scam. In both cases, most of the voters are sports writers (and in the case of Baines and Smith, I know it is different, but it is reflecting the overall process), and these writers spill more ink writing stories on predicting who will win awards or make the hall than actual news coverage of the sport. If it weren't for "Mid Season Awards" and "New Retiree's Chances of the HOF" stories, media outlets could slash their sports staffs by more than half. When the people who get to determine the outcome are also the ones declaring how important the outcomes are, it's a huge red flag to me that those outcomes are mostly meaningless.
That said, I also never enjoy the bashing of players who make it or are up for election, but that's always how it goes. I'd rather have more guys get in so we can keep celebrating the history of the game, different players and different eras and so forth. Celebrate, not denigrate.

[kailes2872]

I also never enjoy the bashing of players who make it or are up for election, but that's always how it goes. I'd rather have more guys get in so we can keep celebrating the history of the game, different players and different eras and so forth. Celebrate, not denigrate.


I hear you and I felt bad after the opening post - especially when Glyn voiced his irritation. My first thought when I heard it was “wasn’t he traded for Steve Kemp?” And then I remembered it was Chet Lemon. I don’t begrudge him and his appearance and autograph fees probably just tripled. I just think about when I started collecting/watching around 78-79 and I think about 78-84 and the cards with the all-star logo - Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Jim Rice Fred Lynn, etc - I never put Harold in their class and except for Rice after a long wait, those guys can’t get in. So that is my point of reference- right or wrong. But I mean no disrespect

[insidethewrapper]

Got to get these 2 guys ( Baines and Smith) out of my Commons bin and send the Rookie Cards in for grading.

[familytoad]

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

These HOFERS will add about $8.00 to my collection too.
Breaking the bank for HOF RC is a thing of the past!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Got to get these 2 guys ( Baines and Smith) out of my Commons bin and send the Rookie Cards in for grading.

yeah I am guessing the pop reports are going to double or triple on these guys

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hear you and I felt bad after the opening post - especially when Glyn voiced his irritation. My first thought when I heard it was “wasn’t he traded for Steve Kemp?” And then I remembered it was Chet Lemon. I don’t begrudge him and his appearance and autograph fees probably just tripled. I just think about when I started collecting/watching around 78-79 and I think about 78-84 and the cards with the all-star logo - Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Jim Rice Fred Lynn, etc - I never put Harold in their class and except for Rice after a long wait, those guys can’t get in. So that is my point of reference- right or wrong. But I mean no disrespect

Yeah I don't think anybody is denying that these two men were excellent baseball players or taking anything away from them personally. But it's fair comment to say one doesn't think they belong in the Hall, or compare unfavorably to others not in the Hall, etc.

[VintageVinnie]

I hope the HOF has the building plans and funds laid out for a massive expansion to their hof room and museum. Baines enjoyed a very nice career, but he is simply not a hof'er..that is clear. If Baines is in, that opens the door for ALOT of retired players who also enjoyed nice big league career's.. Mcgriff, Mattingly, Murphy, Martinez, heck Bill Buckner too...watered down and sad.

[rats60]

This has got to be good news for Omar Vizquel who is now the only guy with 2800 hits (other than steroid users) not in the HOF.

[z28jd]

The REAL travesty is George Steinbrenner receiving 4 votes or less. If anyone of the eligible were to be elected, it should have been Steinbrenner. That man was a HoF'r all the way.

Not sure if this is a joke or not (sorry) but Steinbrenner was once suspended for two years, was once banned permanently before being reinstated and he was one of the owners during the steroid era, who obviously knew what was going on, had no problem getting rich off of it (and also rewarding its use), but threw players under the bus completely when MLB got busted.

He has no business even being on the ballot with that resume. If a player got a two-year suspension, banned and was part of the steroid era, they wouldn't get a vote. He's like a much worse version of Manny Ramirez (meaning steroids/suspensions), who will never get in.

[Exhibitman]

The ghosts of Harry Hooper, Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville and George Kelly are smiling tonight in baseball heaven...and somewhere Buck Weaver is softly crying.

[Chris Counts]

There's no way Harold Baines was better than Minnie Minoso. They played in the same ballpark for most of their careers, and not only was Minnie's OPS was 28 points higher, but he won Gold Glove awards during three of the first four seasons they gave them out. Meanwhile, Baines didn't even play in the field.

[kmac32]

About time Big Lee got in. Great player, better person, and funny as all get out. He is a personal friend of mine and I know his family. Had him as my coach 4 out of 5 years that I went to Cubs camp.

[JollyElm]

Guess I gotta move my signed TTM 1981 Fleer Baines card to my autographed HOF rookies section now.

Most if not all of us here watched him play his entire career...did anyone ever consider him a Hall of Fame caliber player?? Wow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guess I gotta move my signed TTM 1981 Fleer Baines card to my autographed HOF rookies section now.

Most if not all of us here watched him play his entire career...did anyone ever consider him a Hall of Fame caliber player?? Wow.

Only when he looked like he had a shot at 3000, and only for that reason. Smith at least got some reasonably strong consideration for many years from the writers, so while it's debatable it's not an OMG moment.

[Shoeless Moe]

I'm from Chicago. A Cubs fan. Saw Lee Smith pitch.

HE BLOWS!!!!! BLEW, whatever.

Worst pitcher to ever get in.

Joke.

[oldjudge]

Here is the argument for Baines: Upon his retirement, Baines ranked seventh in American League history in games played (2,830) and tenth in runs batted in (1,628). Noted as well for his power hitting in clutch situations, he is tied for seventh in AL history in grand slams (13), fourth in three home run games (3), and tied for seventh in major league history in walk-off home runs (10). Baines batted over .300 eight times and hit .324 in 31 career postseason games, topping the .350 mark in five separate series.

That said, I don’t like the selection

[Shoeless Moe]

and Baines.....good grief.....can't wait now til Dave Concepcion gets in, Warren Cromartie and Mickey Rivers!

[Orioles1954]

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

[mantlefan]

I hear that Tito Fuentes is waiting by his phone....

[Shoeless Moe]

I think its time to start hoarding John Franco cards.

[slidekellyslide]

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

Exactly!

[glchen]

I'm not sure what the shock with Harold Baines in the HOF is. He is #46 on the all time hits list. Everybody on that list from 1-53 is in the HOF except those tainted by steroids, gambling or aren't eligible yet because they are still active and one other player (Omar Vizquel). Sure he's borderline, but I think his era is underrepresented, and I'm fine with him getting in.

[dgtom]

Dick Allen was one of the most feared hitters of his era. I think of him as a Hall of Fame caliber player, and he should already be in.

[pclpads]

Cooperstown is replicating Canton. If a former FB player can tell the diff between a golf ball and a football, well, he's in at Canton! Case closed . . . :(

[G1911]

Fine players, but I can probably come up with 30 players more deserving. I saw the veterans committee has both Baines former manager and owner on it, which helps explain it. Veterans committee nominations seem to be almost random, while the writers tend to do a pretty good job on the whole

[Marchillo]

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!

[ejharrington]

Jack Morris, Harold Baines, Lee Smith, and Trevor Hoffman are in.

That means that Keith Hernandez, Curt Schilling, and Rusty Staub, three of my all-time favorites, need to be in.

[Orioles1954]

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!


Reports are that Baines was "surprised" he got elected. I don't view him as a Hall of Famer but he didn't campaign (like Gossage and Santo) and certainly didn't want this negative attention. From all reports, Baines is a quiet and good man. I think he was an outstanding ballplayer, just not Hall of Fame worthy.

[sgbernard]

I'm surprised Jerry Reinsdorf didn't vote himself in.

[packs]

I can't believe we live in a world where Harold Baines and Lee Smith can get into the HOF but Gil Hodges and Mike Mussina can't.

[jchcollins]

There was never a time when I thought, Harold Baines defined his generation.


I missed where the rules say you have to “define your generation” to be a Hall of Famer. It’s not just the Hall of Household Names.

You have the Ruths, Aarons, and Seavers in the HOF and then you also have the Pie Traynors, Rabbit Maranvilles, and Rube Marquards. It’s made up of all of them. It’s been this way almost literally since the beginning.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jchcollins]

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...


Amen. Very good point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[darwinbulldog]

Seems like everybody who really deserves it gets in eventually. (By my reckoning, the 7 best players not yet in the Hall of Fame have all played in the current century.) In order for that to be true the system has to be loose enough that some questionable choices slide in too. I wouldn't have voted for Baines or Smith, but I understand why the people who are allowed to vote don't include me.

[clydepepper]

The following article helps put this into focus:


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25497076/examining-surprising-hall-calls-harold-baines-lee-smith

[MCyganik]

While I definitely question Baines being in the HOF, there have been some good points to attempt to justify his inclusion including underrepresentation of his era and his longevity stats.

It is sad that some other great guys (Allen, Minoso, Hodges etc) are still shut out but I do enjoy the fringe guys getting in. It shows that the HOF is imperfect and human and always will be. Anyone who dumps on Baines right now and calls his selection the reason the HOF is "watered down" but goes out and spends $$$ on cards/autos of guys like Marquard, Bresnahan, Jennings, Maranville, Kelly, Traynor, Schalk, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Combs, Bottomley, Lindstrom, Travis Jackson et al because they are "vintage Hall Of Famers" needs a comparative history lesson of how the HOF isn't some sacred place reserved for the upper echelon of players.

Congrats to Harold and Lee!

[timn1]

Well said, Glynn. I’m happy for Harold, one of the nicest guys in baseball.

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

[sycks22]

At least we don't have to question if Baines was a juicer. Similar to Lance Johnson the bat swung him.

[drcy]

My 2 cents-- or perhaps it worth 1-1/2 cents-- is, yes, Baines is not deserving, but Smith is a fair choice. Smith was the all time saves leader at one point, and was acknowledged during his playing days as one of the best relievers. His election certainly doesn't offend my senses.

I agree the HOF should be more exclusive. Perhaps not as exclusive as some would want, but more exclusive than it is. Wouldn't offend me if they retroactively took the rake and removed some outliers-- though I assume that would never happen.

The funny thing is the Pro Football HOF is much more exclusive. There are regular complaints that deserving and candidates are shut out by the numbers game. The people who do get selected each year are almost the genuine cream of the crop.

[frankbmd]

Cooperstown is replicating Canton. If a former FB player can tell the diff between a golf ball and a football, well, he's in at Canton! Case closed . . . :(

I played high school football and I can tell the difference between a golf ball and a football. My problem is that I can't always find my golf ball, but I have never lost a football.

CANTON here I come.

[bbcard1]

If relievers belong in the hall of fame, then I think Lee Smith is a fair choice. The irony is that the longevity for which we often (and perhaps fairly) leads to an indictment of the Baines/Sutton types as "compilers" is very elusive for closers. While you get an occassional Thigpen or Mark Davis, Smith had more than 30 saves eleven years in a row. You could argue the value of a save, but it's a fairly globally accepted measure of productivity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Metrics of course aren't everything, but sheesh Baines ranks as the 74th best right fielder of all time according to JAWS. He's so far down the list it isn't even funny. Exactly what did he do other than play a long time at a decent level that offsets the tale told by that metric?

I think guys like Allen, Belle, Oliva, Murphy, Garvey who were among the top few best players in the game for a stretch of 5-7 or so years are more worthy.

[packs]

I don't think anyone would say Lee Smith was better than Rollie Fingers or Dennis Eckersly, both of whom overlapped with his career. He was left out for a reason. Nothing has changed in the time between.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Closers only pitch one inning..usually only in the game half an inning..or only 3 outs worth

At least Baines got 4-5 at bats in a game.

I always felt closers besides elite elite like M. Rivera are guys that are one or 2 bad seasons away from being the 25th guy like Axford and the list goes on..

Being a DH is fine to be in the HOF as long as they let closers in ....any number 2 starting pitcher could of been a decent closer i believe..

[ramram]

The simple fact is that the Hall of Fame voters, or at least enough of them, had signed Harold Baines rookie cards in their collections.

Rob M

[bbcard1]

I don't think anyone would say Lee Smith was better than Rollie Fingers or Dennis Eckersly, both of whom overlapped with his career. He was left out for a reason. Nothing has changed in the time between.

Part of that reason was that he was unpopular with the sportswriters and did not have a dandy memorable thing like a handlebar Finger's handlebar mustache or Gossage's mutton chops or Hoffman's Hell's Bells.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know W-L isn't that meaningful for a reliever, but Smith was 71-92, that has to be the worst percentage of any HOF pitcher, no?

[pclpads]

[CENTER]I played high school football and I can tell the difference between a golf ball and a football. My problem is that I can't always find my golf ball, but I have never lost a football.


So, with that qualification, can we expect your imminent enshrinement next summer in Canton? How's the speech coming? And, can I get a reduction on your pre-HOF auto? :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do not feed the troll!! :D

[bobbyw8469]

Gotta agree with the watering down comment. Doesn’t seem like either of these guys made that significant of a contribution and/or had a real HOF career. High level contributors but not HOF.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If they are in the HOF, Roger Maris should be in the HOF......just saying.

[Tony Gordon]

From the perspective of a White Sox fan in Chicago, I absolutely love the choice of Harold Baines for the Hall. For a team that has been around since 1901, the White Sox have had a long history of lousy outfielders. Baines is actually one of the best outfielders in the history of the team -- we're talking over 100 years! I've had to suffer through the likes of Wayne Nordhagen and Dan Pasqua. The Sox have nothing for 2019. Baines election to the Hall is all Sox fans have to look forward to in 2019. Stop hating on Harold. There are a lot of folks in these parts that love the man.

[keithsky]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

[packs]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

[ejharrington]

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.
+1 from a Red Sox fan

[riggs336]

Metrics of course aren't everything, but sheesh Baines ranks as the 74th best right fielder of all time according to JAWS. He's so far down the list it isn't even funny. Exactly what did he do other than play a long time at a decent level that offsets the tale told by that metric?

I think guys like Allen, Belle, Oliva, Murphy, Garvey who were among the top few best players in the game for a stretch of 5-7 or so years are more worthy.

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

[commishbob]

IMO Rivera is a no-brainer HoF inductee and this comes from a guy who is no fan of the Yankees. He was just ridiculously effective as a closer. When you are in the conversation re:the best ever at your position you have to be in the Hall.

I also this Lee Smith has a sold case. Baines, not so much. Not while Hodges, Allen, McGriff, & Mattingly are on the outside looking in.

Hall of Fame debates are always interesting to me. As long as they remain civil. :cool:

[Peter_Spaeth]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I am hoping this was tongue in cheek?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

If Baines is in, the door is wide open IMO.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I hate the Yankees, but really? Compare him to his contemporaries who were pitching in the same "easy" conditions you posit. Hoffman is the only one in his neighborhood, and he's on the outskirts.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

Good names, the list of guys like this is almost endless. Reggie Smith and Willie Davis actually stack up well (far superior to Baines) even by modern metrics. So does Boyer. Pinson is pretty comparable to Baines, as is a wide selection of guys like Al Oliver, Tommy Davis, and Cesar Cedeno

[BicycleSpokes]

Yes, these are two very unfortunate additions, in my humble opinion. Wow...

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good names, the list of guys like this is almost endless. Reggie Smith and Willie Davis actually stack up well (far superior to Baines) even by modern metrics. So does Boyer. Pinson is pretty comparable to Baines, as is a wide selection of guys like Al Oliver, Tommy Davis, and Cesar Cedeno

Dave Parker. Much more feared hitter than Harold Baines IMO.

[Tony2311]

Someone that averages .289, 22hr, 93 rbi's as a right fielder/dh and played in a single world series is not a hall of famer in my opinion.

+1 Tony

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just to be perverse, Yaz was 22-90-.285

[packs]

Compare that to Albert Belle:

40-130-295

Not a HOFer though, apparently.

[MK]

If Baines is HOF material, then next year they need to add another 300 or so new members as the bar has been lowered substantially. In fact, why not just put everyone in who has played at least one year in the bigs. That way we don’t overlook anyone. It’s so watered down anyway it’s lost all of its prestige.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I got this from SB Nation


Martinez won two batting titles, led the American League in on-base percentage thrice, doubles twice, and led once each in OPS, OPS+, runs scored and RBI. He was named a Silver Slugger as the best hitter at his position seven times.

Baines won a Silver Slugger once (1989), and led the AL in slugging percentage once (1984). That is the extent of the black ink on his Baseball-Reference page.

Baines was a compiler over a long period of time, which absolutely has value, to be productive over 22 years in the majors. His hit total is relatively high (2,866), good enough to rank 46th all-time. He has 619 more hits than Martinez, which is a lot.

But to put this in perspective, Baines reached base in his career by hit, walk, or hit by pitch 3,942 times, a big number. Martinez reached base 3,619 times, closing the hit gap quite a bit. While Baines did reach base 323 more times than Martinez, he did so in 2,418 more plate appearances. Martinez would have to go 1,513 plate appearances without reaching base to lower his OBP to Baines’ level; that’s nearly three full seasons’ worth.

For now at least, only one of those two is a Hall of Famer. Shocking, indeed.

[vintagewhitesox]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

[ullmandds]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

more hits than jeter????? not quite!

[Peter_Spaeth]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

[Shoeless Moe]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

Cubs/Sox fan here, and never once did I think of him or Lee Smith as HOFers during their careers or when they ended. A HOFer is a no brainer, you don't need to think on it, they just are. Both were good players, but never great.

By your reasoning you'd have Frank Tanana and Jamie Moyer in over Sandy Koufax. Longevity doesn't mean you were great.

[vintagewhitesox]

Not OVER, but along with.
It's a museum, the more the merrier.

If RBI and HRs dont matter or are not good arguments, whats the point then?

Here's a video of Harold clinching the AL West in 1983. Winning Ugly indeed.

https://youtu.be/qp2XWfMOCLY

[Fred]

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!

I hope they have JSA certs with the signatures...

[brianp-beme]

In Harold Baines's case I believe the Hall of Fame was looking to concoct a rhyming trio of DH Harold Baines batting for pitcher Jesse Haines, with pinch runner Tim Raines ready on the bench.

Brian

[Peter_Spaeth]

In Harold Baines's case I believe the Hall of Fame was looking to concoct a rhyming trio of DH Harold Baines batting for pitcher Jesse Haines, with pinch runner Tim Raines ready on the bench.

Brian

Rex Harrison would like that.
Raines runs for Baines whenever we start Haines.

[brianp-beme]

Rex Harrison would like that.
Raines runs for Baines whenever we start Haines.

Nice...that's music to the ears, my fair lady.

Brian (lady does not refer to Peter)

[riggs336]

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

They can put his plaque next to Freddie Lindstrom whose JAWS rating
is 74th among third basemen.

[sreader3]

Donie Bush for Hall of Fame!

Higher career WAR (39.3) than Harold Baines (38.7) and Lee Smith (29.0).

[gman]

An interesting note is that Baines was only on the BBWAA ballot for five years before being dropped off. The highest percentage he achieved during this time was only 6.1 % (with 75% needed to be elected into the Hall). Just sayin' :confused:

[sreader3]

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

[bigred1]

I am alright with Smith. Cant see Baines though, in any statistical or other way, someone(s) smiling over him.

[rats60]

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

2800 Hits and 1600 RBIs. Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Mike Schmidt fail those metrics. Maybe we should kick them out. 450 saves. Eckersley, Gossage, Sutter and Fingers fail that metric. They are out.

I don't understand the obsession with WAR. It is just a made up stat based on a person(s) opinion. Bill James doesn't like it. It clearly has its faults. Why is it so had to allow others to have different opinions? The voters clearly like Baines and Smith's actual production over WAR. Deal with it.

These guys are compilers. There is clearly a place in the HOF for guys like that. Playing at a high level for a long time has always been a way to make it. Lee Smith has more WAR than Hoffman, Fingers and Sutter. He is 3rd all time in saves. He shouldn't be a surprise. He got over 50% of the writers vote. That generally leads to induction.

Baines is a bit of a stretch. However, of players with 2800 hits clean, only Omar Vizquel isn't in the HOF and he is getting a lot of support. Of players with 1600 RBIs clean, Baines was the last not in the HoF. Kell only had 2054 hits and 870 RBIs, he is not in the same class as Baines as are many others. These guys clearly do pass the objective test of Hofers, at least ones elected by Veterans Committees over the years.

[OldOriole]

I don't mind Smith getting in and I've always like Baines, a nice and genuine guy. My question is 'Why did you have to elect Baines under these questionable conditions?'. The 16 person panel voting for induction included Harold's former manager, Harold's former GM, and Harold's former owner. Couldn't you compile a more impartial panel? If he's truly deserving then why stack the deck?

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?


Ah, have you see prices realized on cards after an overpay?

[Jim65]

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

That already happened when Andre Dawson got in, now the gates will open for other nondeserving players like Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, etc.

Lee Smith opens the door for John Franco and Billy Wagner.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well the voters are changing i assume. Politics starting to be more important and small sample size.

Maybe a term for not sure thing HOFs elected after 2017 or so.... I will need to coin one..

[PowderedH2O]

If you think that Harold Baines lowers the Hall's standards you are sorely mistaken. There are MANY players in the Hall not as accomplished. Yes, this should open the door for the Hernandez, Mattingly, Garvey, Parker, Murphy crowd. I'm ok with that. I thought of those guys as HOFers while active, and they are better than a lot of guys in now.

[Chuck9788]

Harold Baines rules! He was a great player and is a well deserved Hall of Famer. Lee Smith is a no brainer. These guys are legends.

The players and mangers you feel are more deserved will earn their keys to Cooperstown in due time.

[rats60]

That already happened when Andre Dawson got in, now the gates will open for other nondeserving players like Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, etc.

Lee Smith opens the door for John Franco and Billy Wagner.

Alan Trammell and especially Jack Morris opened the door for Lee Smith and Harold Baines. The Veteran's Committee had been limiting the number of ex-players, but now seems open to putting in guys that just missed the cut with writers. Look for Ted Simmons, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker or Luis Tiant to be elected next year and Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat or Minnie Minoso to get elected the year after.

You may consider them nondeserving, but the HOF and its voters do not and it has been that way for a long time. Candy Cummings was elected in 1939. Tommy McCarthy was elected in 1946. Ray Schalk was elected in 1955. Lloyd Waner was elected in 1967. Fred Lindstrom was elected in 1976. Rick Ferrell was elected in 1984. The Veteran's Committee has the job of electing players that were over looked by the writers, who for the most part do a good job with Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize being the only two really bad misses.

[drcy]

Alan Trammell and especially Jack Morris opened the door for Lee Smith and Harold Baines. The Veteran's Committee had been limiting the number of ex-players, but now seems open to putting in guys that just missed the cut with writers. Look for Ted Simmons, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker or Luis Tiant to be elected next year and Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat or Minnie Minoso to get elected the year after.

You may consider them nondeserving, but the HOF and its voters do not and it has been that way for a long time. Candy Cummings was elected in 1939. Tommy McCarthy was elected in 1946. Ray Schalk was elected in 1955. Lloyd Waner was elected in 1967. Fred Lindstrom was elected in 1976. Rick Ferrell was elected in 1984. The Veteran's Committee has the job of electing players that were over looked by the writers, who for the most part do a good job with Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize being the only two really bad misses.

The funny thing in this situation is, unlike all those other players you listed (Murphy, Tiant, Oliva, Parker, etc), Baines was never at any time considered a star or great player by anyone while he was playing-- even for a short period. He was considered basically a non-entity even while he was playing. It may not have panned out, but with Parker and Garvey, for examples, when they were winning the MVP and on All-Star teams, some people thought "We may be looking at a future HOFer here." With Baines, no one ever thought that ever while he was playing. It's not as if he was one of those many former stars that never panned out-- he was never a star.

One sportswriter wrote that Baines doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, but don't be hard on him because he didn't do the selecting. My response is that it is true he didn't do the selecting-- and, in fact, he said he was surprised as anyone that he was selected. However, you can start blaming Baines once he accepts it. That part is his choice. If he says "I'm honored, but I don't deserve it and will respectfully decline," he would be admired if not become a folk hero in baseball history books. If he's enshrined, he will eternally elicit a collect an eyeroll and mocking chuckle anytime someone mentions his name. He'll never be known as "Hall of Famer" but as "One of the Worst Hall of Famers Ever." I googled his name and the word "joke" and you get a lot hits. I didn't try "travesty."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Time to reprise my 2011 Christmas Carol.



Default A Christmas Carol, Cooperstown style

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deck the Hall with average players
Colavito, Kaat, fa la la la
Vote em in ignore naysayers
Hodges, Tiant, Blue, la la la la
Don we now Mattingly and Baylor
Oliva, Kluszewski, la la la
Deck the Hall with average players
Santo, Reynolds, Staub, la la la la
__________________
Buy high, sell low.

[drcy]

Ha! After my post I did google his name + the word 'travesty'

Google search: Harold Baines + travesty (https://www.google.com/search?q=harold+baines+travesty&rlz=1CAACAT_enUS704US704&oq=harold+baines+travesty&aqs=chrome..69i57.4071j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[ejharrington]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

[clydepepper]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.


I would add Bill Mazeroski to your first list and Ted Simmons and Luis Tiant to your second list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tinker Evers Schoendienst Slaughter Maranville to first list if not already there.

[Fred]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.


You're being very kind - I'm sure most people could double that first list....
Someone (can't remember who) gave me the title of a pretty cool book to read regarding HOF inductions. "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" by Bill James. Note, the book was written in the 90's but really provides great detail on the players elected by the veterans committee. The book can be found relatively cheap on ebay or Amazon. Over 400 pages of a lot of good/fun reading.

[rats60]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.

[riggs336]

You're being very kind - I'm sure most people could double that first list....
Someone (can't remember who) gave me the title of a pretty cool book to read regarding HOF inductions. "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" by Bill James. Note, the book was written in the 90's but really provides great detail on the players elected by the veterans committee. The book can be found relatively cheap on ebay or Amazon. Over 400 pages of a lot of good/fun reading.

The last words in the Bill James book (speaking of Rizzuto's enshrinement) are "He won't be the worst player there". The same could be said of Baines.
Unfortunately to build a stairway to heaven you have to have some bottom steps.

[JollyElm]

Add Jeff Kent to that 'should be in' list. Talk about a travesty, how does such an RBI machine second baseman get virtually no support for enshrinement?? Give me a frickin' run producing second sacker like him any day of the week!
(Sure, he played during the steroid era, but there's no hint he was ever involved with juicing and he's always been an outspoken advocate for HGH testing in baseball.)

BA .290
Hits 2,461
HR 377
RBI 1,518

Five time All Star, 2000 NL MVP, 4 Silver Slugger Awards.

[parker1b2]

Add Jeff Kent to that 'should be in' list. Talk about a travesty, how does such an RBI machine second baseman get virtually no support for enshrinement?? Give me a frickin' run producing second sacker like him any day of the week!
(Sure, he played during the steroid era, but there's no hint he was ever involved with juicing and he's always been an outspoken advocate for HGH testing in baseball.)

BA .290
Hits 2,461
HR 377
RBI 1,518

Five time All Star, 2000 NL MVP, 4 Silver Slugger Awards.

+1 for Kent and I would add McGriff also, no hint of PEDs 493 HRs

[JollyElm]

+1 for Kent and I would add McGriff also, no hint of PEDs 493 HRs

It's good you brought up McGriff. Unlike Baines (nothing personal against him, he seems to be a fine man), The Crime Dog was an out and out star during his career, not a second thought sorta guy. He was thought of as a 'potential HOFer' and he had some seriously nice career stats.

[callou2131]

Nick Markakis Is jumping for Joy with the election Of Baines.

[Jim65]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

If we are selecting people based on stats, Albert Belle should be in, he was better than every player on your second list.

[redalpha7]

Couple of more


List 1

Craig Biggio

List 2

Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez

[Kenny Cole]

This discussion has already made me tired because it doesn't matter at all. They are both in. That isn't going to change. They aren't the worst HOFers, they obviously aren't the best. They are both somewhere in middle of the road and you can argue about where. There are more deserving ballplayers still waiting for the call, there are less deserving ballplayers who have already been voted in. And none of that matters. It is what it is, to use the cliche. Life goes on. What you or I think is completely irrelevant except for purposes of discussions like this.

I do feel bad about the Baines bashing because he did nothing to deserve it and has always been a stand-up guy as best as I can tell. That is completely undeserved and unfortunate. My $.02.

[clydepepper]

The percentage of all players elected should never be a constant except within specific eras.

A vast majority of the total number of MLB players have been active since WWII and we don't need to have the same percentage of players elected now as they did before all the expansions.

IMO, while the talent pool is much larger, expansion has assured that the mean-level talent is actually lower than before.

That's my three(?) cents worth.



I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

[ejharrington]

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.
Good point on Barnes; I excluded Caruthers for that same reason. I would induct Barnes as part of the Pioneer wing along with many of his teammates.

[Chris Counts]

Once the scoundrel Bud Selig got in, I had to let go of any idealism I had over Hall of Fame selections. In general, though, I'm an open-the-flood-gates kind of guy. The more the merrier. I'm happy with Lee Smith and Harold Baines, who aren't any worse than Jesse Haines, Highpockets Kelly and about a dozen others. Bring on Jim Edmonds, Minnie Minoso, Luis Tiant, Vada Pinson, Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva, Maury Wills, Dick Groat and Lon Warnecke (who has almost the exact same stats as his contemporary, Lefty Gomez). And how about Cecil Travis? He has the third highest average ever for a shortstop, and he fought in the Battle of the Bulge.

[Tabe]

I hate the Yankees, but really? Compare him to his contemporaries who were pitching in the same "easy" conditions you posit. Hoffman is the only one in his neighborhood, and he's on the outskirts.

Wagner is in that neighborhood and was miles better than Hoffman. In fact, he had a better WHIP than Rivera.

If we're putting in a reliever behind Rivera, start with Wagner, not Lee Smith.

[rhettyeakley]

Neither are the worst selections, they are both “lower tier” in relation to others in the Hall of Fame but I don’t have a major problem with either of them. I feel that Smith compares rather favorably to Bruce Sutter and Baines was a steady performer that made a lot of All-Star teams so I’m not sure why all the hate.

I am as guilty as anyone at overusing WAR, it is a fun stat to throw around but it is a bit arbitrary. People with fairly mediocre numbers can emerge with WAR numbers that are off the charts while others get absolutely killed. Keep in mind Doc Cramer who had some traction for the HOF in the 1970’s has a career WAR of 8.5 according to Baseball-Reference despite over 2,700 hits and a .296 career average (this seems almost impossible to be that low) while Rick Reuschel has a career WAR of 69.7 despite a near .500 career W-L record (214-191) and only ever really led the league in losses and hits allowed.

[insidethewrapper]

Baines compared to Kaline ( stats look about the same- that was a surprize to me ):
G Hits HR RBI Bave SLG
Kaline 2834 3007 399 1583 297 480
Baines 2830 2866 384 1628 289 465

[GaryPassamonte]

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.

You are making the mistake of comparing players like Barnes and Bond to players of more recent eras using a measuring stick that doesn't apply. Any player can only fairly be compared to players from his era. The early game was baseball, yet quite different than today. Also, in Barnes defense, he played 5 seasons prior to 1871, the first year of the professional National Association, at the highest levels available at the time. The 10 year rule is not relevant to Barnes, as well as many other players, who played part or all of their careers prior to the start of the professional leagues. These players are the pioneers of baseball and have been neglected by the Hall of Fame, basically, because all or most of the voters have no understanding of the early game and fail to properly evaluate the early players.

[jimjim]

Tony Larussa is off his rocker.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25518933/tony-la-russa-calls-harold-baines-detractors-weak

[triwak]

This discussion has already made me tired because it doesn't matter at all. They are both in. That isn't going to change. They aren't the worst HOFers, they obviously aren't the best. They are both somewhere in middle of the road and you can argue about where. There are more deserving ballplayers still waiting for the call, there are less deserving ballplayers who have already been voted in. And none of that matters. It is what it is, to use the cliche. Life goes on. What you or I think is completely irrelevant except for purposes of discussions like this.

I do feel bad about the Baines bashing because he did nothing to deserve it and has always been a stand-up guy as best as I can tell. That is completely undeserved and unfortunate. My $.02.

+1

[Orioles1954]

Neither are the worst selections, they are both “lower tier” in relation to others in the Hall of Fame but I don’t have a major problem with either of them. I feel that Smith compares rather favorably to Bruce Sutter and Baines was a steady performer that made a lot of All-Star teams so I’m not sure why all the hate.

I am as guilty as anyone at overusing WAR, it is a fun stat to throw around but it is a bit arbitrary. People with fairly mediocre numbers can emerge with WAR numbers that are off the charts while others get absolutely killed. Keep in mind Doc Cramer who had some traction for the HOF in the 1970’s has a career WAR of 8.5 according to Baseball-Reference despite over 2,700 hits and a .296 career average (this seems almost impossible to be that low) while Rick Reuschel has a career WAR of 69.7 despite a near .500 career W-L record (214-191) and only ever really led the league in losses and hits allowed.

Someone on this very board tried to argue that Rick Reuschel and Bob Forsch were better than Jim Palmer based on (their interpretation of) metrics.

[Touch'EmAll]

I don't hold the Hall in the same high regard as when I was a kid. I always thought of the Hall as a place for the best - y'know, for the guys who you would pay to see. Nothing against the guy, but I wouldn't pay to go to a ballgame to just see Harold Baines, sorry.