T206Collector
11-30-2018, 12:47 PM
I was contacted earlier today by Peter Nash. He sent me the following email. I will post my response below. I want the entire exchange preserved publicly before his article is published.
Paul,
Firstly, sorry to hear about the problems that this situation has caused for collectors like yourself.
I have been working on a story about signed T206 cards for a while now, but this current situation requires coverage right now. I am currently working on an article for Hauls of Shame about this scandal and wanted to reach out to you for any comments you might have regarding your own cards.
Author Ron Keurajian has for years warned collectors that there is a very small population of genuine signed T206 cards in existence, especially for players deceased before 1968. In his book he also described in detail cards he considered forgeries including your Lajoie and Clarke cards.
CLARKE STUDY:
Known Forgeries: Due to the many breaks in Clarke’s hand and lack of rapid flow, his signature is very easy to forge. Well executed forgeries exist in quantities. About 25 years ago the market was flooded with forged Hall of Fame plaque postcards. Clarke was a target of this forger. They are fairly well executed. Many of these postcards were signed in red ink so proceed with caution. There are a handful of forged T206 cards in the market. As expected the cards are lower grade and signed across the top edge in either ball point or fountain pen in a sloppy hand where certain letters are omitted. Some are signed in red ink. Overall, a rudimentary forgery. I have never seen a genuinely signed T206 card.
LAJOIE STUDY
There are many lesser grade forged T-206 tobacco cards in the market. The target cards are typically the batting and throwing cards. A forgery is placed vertically to the right of the head and a forged date is added to the left side of the head. “Best Wishes” or “Yours Truly” is signed across the arm or leg. These are rather nonsensical but I have seen at least one slabbed and certified as genuine.
Did you know of Keurajian's writings on the subject and were you aware of his opinions when you were compiling your own collection? Did you disagree with his opinion? Were you concerned with the recent appearance of many more signed T206 cards in the past decade? Did the authentications from the TPAs quell any skepticism or reservations you might have had?
I appreciate your passion for collecting these items, however, do you think that your desire for certain rarities may have contributed to creating the climate for these type of forgeries to flood the market? I ask this mostly in relation to your signed M-116 Wagner card. This card has been identified as a forgery by sources I consider experts on the subject. Do you have any additional background on that card?
Lastly, do you have any additional background on the Pittsburgh find story you published on your website? You refer to at least one letter that was seen and "sold" and connected to these cards. Did you ever see such a letter or verify its existence? Could you share a copy of it? Does this current situation make you question the authenticity of those cards? In particular, I was drawn to the signed Sam Crawford card which appears to be problematic. This card greatly contrasts the genuine signed Crawford card which is currently being sold by Steiner.
Thanks for taking the time to review my request and I look forward to hearing back from you.
Regards,
Peter Nash
Haulsofshame.com
My response below:
Hi Peter,
I am the proud owner of Ron Keurajian's book. I bought the Kindle edition a couple of years ago. At the outset, you should know that I have always assumed some percentage of autographs in my collection were not the genuine article. I am not so naive in my collecting. I found Keurajian's research interesting, but I remember disagreeing fundamentally with some of his conclusions when I read it. The reason for this is because to concur with him would be to challenge everything that Jeff Morey ever told me, showed me, and sold me from and about his autographed pre-war card collection. The Clarke -- by way of just one example of the inconsistencies between the book and Morey's experiences -- was one of the central pieces of Morey's consignment to Mike Gutierrez's auctions back in 2001 (May 18, 2001) and Mastro's auctions in 2002 (April 12, 2002). I attach a .pdf of the record-keeping copies that Jeff Morey sent to me at some point over the last 10 years of our friendship. I also attach a copy of a screen shot I took of the 2002 Mastro auction (the Gutierrez catalog is uploaded in relevant parts to the Morey interview section of my website). The fact that Morey also took selfies with so many of these old-timers as they signed their cards for him adds further credibility to the Morey collection. To answer your question in short, a book that purports to summarize the state of signed T206 collecting that is inconsistent with my experiences with Jeff Morey is of limited probative value to me. I'll take Morey's account over everyone, which is one of the reasons I have recorded my interviews with him, kept every email he has ever sent me since 2007, and videotaped the production of his cards to me, including the opening of the envelope to me. For my purposes, this is iron clad provenance that you just never find in the pre-war autograph world, and I trust it explicitly.
I was definitely concerned by the recent appearance of many more signed T206 cards over the past 3 years, particularly because so many did not appear in the Morey collection or the Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards in 2007 (more on that below). Although the authentications from JSA, PSA/DNA, BVG, and SGC had previously served to "quell any skepticism or reservations" I may have had, the recent revelations have certainly caused me to take a much more introspective look into my collection. I can tell you that this will be a long process for me, which I have only just begun. How it will manifest itself in the days, weeks, months, and years to follow, we will just have to see. But, I will be sure to keep posting on my website and Net54baseball.com my progress (or lack thereof).
I would not say that my "desire for certain rarities may have contributed to creating the climate for these type of forgeries to flood the market." Prices have certainly gone up. My publishing articles about my passion probably increased demand. But going back 10 years I have routinely been outbid on these rarities by multiple collectors with much deeper pockets than me. This would explain why a signed T206 Cobb has still eluded me. Whenever prices go up on anything, so does the fraud side follow to take advantage. But, the way you ask your questions suggests that one ought to keep his passions to himself. Whether or not you intended your questions to suggest that conclusion, I fundamentally disagree with it.
I do have some helpful background on the M116 Wagner, which I am not at liberty to disclose publicly. Suffice to say, if I ever decide to sell it, I will make the provenance known to the auction house, as I did to both JSA and SGC when they authenticated it. Copy of JSA LOA attached, but I understand you do not credit that source. What I will say is that I bought the Wagner raw on my own review of its merits and concluded based on my experience that it is the real deal, probably signed by him during his stint coaching for the Pirates in the early 1940s.
With respect to the Pittsburgh Find, I attach a letter written on an index card that was included with the signed Snodgrass catching card in the first wave of signed T206 cards that hit eBay in April 2007. That is the letter I was referring to. When I asked the seller for additional letters (because I find them fascinating provenance), he said that the family wanted to keep them. So I left it at that. The current situation does not "make [me] question the authenticity of those cards." I am not sure what Crawford you are referring to, and I am not sure that there is a "Crawford card which is currently being sold by Steiner" with which to compare it. Either way, I am quite comfortable in the provenance of those cards and, obviously, the letter accompanying the Snodgrass catching T206 lends credence to it. More importantly, I found the cards produced to me by Jeff Morey in December 2007 to support the veracity of the Pittsburgh Find because he did not have a single player on a T205 or T206 card that was not also in the Pittsburgh Find. As I mentioned above, I have always been suspicious when a signed card from a player not gotten by Morey appears on the market. In those instances, I have tried to get dual authentication, principally by JSA and SGC. Going forward, I will have to see how I handle the same circumstances if I am lucky enough to be faced with some new signed T206 cards that are purportedly authentic. Obviously, the quality of the authentications conducted by JSA and SGC have in recent years been shown by this current scandal to be exceedingly poor.
Last, I do not begrudge you your critical eye for authenticity. Like a free press preserves democracy, critics of the authenticity of autographs are an important part of the autograph hobby. They serve to keep it as honest and upstanding as possible under the circumstances. The comments by some of your readers about my collection over the years have, in my view, gone beyond a healthy debate and into a certain brand of nastiness that quite frankly isn't necessary to further the health of the hobby. As you write your articles, I would hope that your interest is to preserve the hobby's health, and even to challenge it to be much better, and not just to take it down or destroy it.
Thanks for reaching out. I still miss the 3rd Bass tape that was stolen from my car in 1992.
Paul
Paul,
Firstly, sorry to hear about the problems that this situation has caused for collectors like yourself.
I have been working on a story about signed T206 cards for a while now, but this current situation requires coverage right now. I am currently working on an article for Hauls of Shame about this scandal and wanted to reach out to you for any comments you might have regarding your own cards.
Author Ron Keurajian has for years warned collectors that there is a very small population of genuine signed T206 cards in existence, especially for players deceased before 1968. In his book he also described in detail cards he considered forgeries including your Lajoie and Clarke cards.
CLARKE STUDY:
Known Forgeries: Due to the many breaks in Clarke’s hand and lack of rapid flow, his signature is very easy to forge. Well executed forgeries exist in quantities. About 25 years ago the market was flooded with forged Hall of Fame plaque postcards. Clarke was a target of this forger. They are fairly well executed. Many of these postcards were signed in red ink so proceed with caution. There are a handful of forged T206 cards in the market. As expected the cards are lower grade and signed across the top edge in either ball point or fountain pen in a sloppy hand where certain letters are omitted. Some are signed in red ink. Overall, a rudimentary forgery. I have never seen a genuinely signed T206 card.
LAJOIE STUDY
There are many lesser grade forged T-206 tobacco cards in the market. The target cards are typically the batting and throwing cards. A forgery is placed vertically to the right of the head and a forged date is added to the left side of the head. “Best Wishes” or “Yours Truly” is signed across the arm or leg. These are rather nonsensical but I have seen at least one slabbed and certified as genuine.
Did you know of Keurajian's writings on the subject and were you aware of his opinions when you were compiling your own collection? Did you disagree with his opinion? Were you concerned with the recent appearance of many more signed T206 cards in the past decade? Did the authentications from the TPAs quell any skepticism or reservations you might have had?
I appreciate your passion for collecting these items, however, do you think that your desire for certain rarities may have contributed to creating the climate for these type of forgeries to flood the market? I ask this mostly in relation to your signed M-116 Wagner card. This card has been identified as a forgery by sources I consider experts on the subject. Do you have any additional background on that card?
Lastly, do you have any additional background on the Pittsburgh find story you published on your website? You refer to at least one letter that was seen and "sold" and connected to these cards. Did you ever see such a letter or verify its existence? Could you share a copy of it? Does this current situation make you question the authenticity of those cards? In particular, I was drawn to the signed Sam Crawford card which appears to be problematic. This card greatly contrasts the genuine signed Crawford card which is currently being sold by Steiner.
Thanks for taking the time to review my request and I look forward to hearing back from you.
Regards,
Peter Nash
Haulsofshame.com
My response below:
Hi Peter,
I am the proud owner of Ron Keurajian's book. I bought the Kindle edition a couple of years ago. At the outset, you should know that I have always assumed some percentage of autographs in my collection were not the genuine article. I am not so naive in my collecting. I found Keurajian's research interesting, but I remember disagreeing fundamentally with some of his conclusions when I read it. The reason for this is because to concur with him would be to challenge everything that Jeff Morey ever told me, showed me, and sold me from and about his autographed pre-war card collection. The Clarke -- by way of just one example of the inconsistencies between the book and Morey's experiences -- was one of the central pieces of Morey's consignment to Mike Gutierrez's auctions back in 2001 (May 18, 2001) and Mastro's auctions in 2002 (April 12, 2002). I attach a .pdf of the record-keeping copies that Jeff Morey sent to me at some point over the last 10 years of our friendship. I also attach a copy of a screen shot I took of the 2002 Mastro auction (the Gutierrez catalog is uploaded in relevant parts to the Morey interview section of my website). The fact that Morey also took selfies with so many of these old-timers as they signed their cards for him adds further credibility to the Morey collection. To answer your question in short, a book that purports to summarize the state of signed T206 collecting that is inconsistent with my experiences with Jeff Morey is of limited probative value to me. I'll take Morey's account over everyone, which is one of the reasons I have recorded my interviews with him, kept every email he has ever sent me since 2007, and videotaped the production of his cards to me, including the opening of the envelope to me. For my purposes, this is iron clad provenance that you just never find in the pre-war autograph world, and I trust it explicitly.
I was definitely concerned by the recent appearance of many more signed T206 cards over the past 3 years, particularly because so many did not appear in the Morey collection or the Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards in 2007 (more on that below). Although the authentications from JSA, PSA/DNA, BVG, and SGC had previously served to "quell any skepticism or reservations" I may have had, the recent revelations have certainly caused me to take a much more introspective look into my collection. I can tell you that this will be a long process for me, which I have only just begun. How it will manifest itself in the days, weeks, months, and years to follow, we will just have to see. But, I will be sure to keep posting on my website and Net54baseball.com my progress (or lack thereof).
I would not say that my "desire for certain rarities may have contributed to creating the climate for these type of forgeries to flood the market." Prices have certainly gone up. My publishing articles about my passion probably increased demand. But going back 10 years I have routinely been outbid on these rarities by multiple collectors with much deeper pockets than me. This would explain why a signed T206 Cobb has still eluded me. Whenever prices go up on anything, so does the fraud side follow to take advantage. But, the way you ask your questions suggests that one ought to keep his passions to himself. Whether or not you intended your questions to suggest that conclusion, I fundamentally disagree with it.
I do have some helpful background on the M116 Wagner, which I am not at liberty to disclose publicly. Suffice to say, if I ever decide to sell it, I will make the provenance known to the auction house, as I did to both JSA and SGC when they authenticated it. Copy of JSA LOA attached, but I understand you do not credit that source. What I will say is that I bought the Wagner raw on my own review of its merits and concluded based on my experience that it is the real deal, probably signed by him during his stint coaching for the Pirates in the early 1940s.
With respect to the Pittsburgh Find, I attach a letter written on an index card that was included with the signed Snodgrass catching card in the first wave of signed T206 cards that hit eBay in April 2007. That is the letter I was referring to. When I asked the seller for additional letters (because I find them fascinating provenance), he said that the family wanted to keep them. So I left it at that. The current situation does not "make [me] question the authenticity of those cards." I am not sure what Crawford you are referring to, and I am not sure that there is a "Crawford card which is currently being sold by Steiner" with which to compare it. Either way, I am quite comfortable in the provenance of those cards and, obviously, the letter accompanying the Snodgrass catching T206 lends credence to it. More importantly, I found the cards produced to me by Jeff Morey in December 2007 to support the veracity of the Pittsburgh Find because he did not have a single player on a T205 or T206 card that was not also in the Pittsburgh Find. As I mentioned above, I have always been suspicious when a signed card from a player not gotten by Morey appears on the market. In those instances, I have tried to get dual authentication, principally by JSA and SGC. Going forward, I will have to see how I handle the same circumstances if I am lucky enough to be faced with some new signed T206 cards that are purportedly authentic. Obviously, the quality of the authentications conducted by JSA and SGC have in recent years been shown by this current scandal to be exceedingly poor.
Last, I do not begrudge you your critical eye for authenticity. Like a free press preserves democracy, critics of the authenticity of autographs are an important part of the autograph hobby. They serve to keep it as honest and upstanding as possible under the circumstances. The comments by some of your readers about my collection over the years have, in my view, gone beyond a healthy debate and into a certain brand of nastiness that quite frankly isn't necessary to further the health of the hobby. As you write your articles, I would hope that your interest is to preserve the hobby's health, and even to challenge it to be much better, and not just to take it down or destroy it.
Thanks for reaching out. I still miss the 3rd Bass tape that was stolen from my car in 1992.
Paul