"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[bounce]

ML auction opened this week, there is some great stuff in there. Got my catalog in the mail yesterday. Was excited to see how the T206 Wagner did. Not a card I can afford, but always like watching the action on these.

The catalog had the regular write-up for a card of this caliber, which in my opinion has gotten so overdone. These cards don't need that level of description and hype, but that's a discussion for another day. What I didn't realize was just how extensive the "restoration" was on this card. The catalog doesn't show the back, but you can see it on the website. The back makes it much easier to see signs of just how much "grafting" of the borders was done. The description almost hypes the $14,000 spent fixing this thing up.

Sure - it looks nice I guess, but as a collector, this thing isn't REALLY a T206 any more.

I've been saying for years now that high end cards act much more like artwork when it comes to pricing, so maybe in some way this kind of thing was to be expected. However, at some level for me, this card has been so altered at this point, it's not really an "original" anymore. Using the artwork analogy, this seems more like a lithograph or a limited edition print than it does an original.

Or maybe think real estate - we can now just invest in some "remodeling" costs to make cards look better? I know there's other things like bleaching, etc. that have been done, not a fan of that either really but this was pretty extensive.

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

[biggsdaddycool]

I agree 100%. What happened to the day when this sort of thing was frowned upon?? Maybe I’m too much of a purist, but even soaking for me is borderline.

The amount of money in the hobby these days ensures the “old days” of considering anything done to the card to improve condition being sac religious are gone.


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[LeftHandedDane]

At least it has been fully disclosed! With the skyrocketing prices for high-end cards, there is too much at stake to believe that many (most?) PSA 8 and above pre-war cards have been altered to some degree or another without full disclosure.

I agree with the OP, cards are not like fine art or real estate that are enhanced by restoration. I prefer my cards to have a little wear and tear on them, it makes them more genuine. But I collect as a hobby, not as an investment, and I am not trying to beat the market.

I can see the interest in having an authentic sample of the hobby's most iconic card, even if it has been altered, for some collectors. It will be interesting to see how much this card brings versus recent low-quality, unaltered versions.

[Throttlesteer]

I look at it more like restored cars with new parts vs a numbers matching survivor. I dont need my cards soaked, grafted, bedazzled, or recolored. The character is lost when you give them a tummy tuck.

[Jason19th]

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

[SetBuilder]

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

[Throttlesteer]

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

[SetBuilder]

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

[Jobu]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_106.html?fbclid=IwAR3oPJQ20YcQu15CXa2s6 xI1_Ku-U6EWpzpvQELmDSwNRKJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

[Fred]

That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.

I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale.

How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back?

I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place.

Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?

[bounce]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_106.html?fbclid=IwAR3oPJQ20YcQu15CXa2s6 xI1_Ku-U6EWpzpvQELmDSwNRKJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue.

I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand.

[mrvster]

going to start a thread just like this....


I agree 100% .... with poster

[Fred]

That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

[Throttlesteer]

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

And you've made my point.

[AGuinness]

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

The Wagner, as is any sports card, is many things to many people. I'm not sure it's helpful to portray any card as solely one thing first and all else second.

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I don't have an answer, but this makes me wonder why the sports card hobby
HAS to follow the lead of other hobbies when it comes to restoration. I'm sure there are differences, perhaps subtle or not, in how each of the other hobbies you mentioned handles restored works (not to mention differing reasons for the restorations). But there's nothing that should dictate that sports cards follows suit and plays by another hobby's book.
I think (stress: think) that it's probably a sign of the health of the hobby that there are enough people to be on various sides of the restoration debate. And I hope that there is enough respect for those who are against restoration, of which there are a large number, that all restoration work is divulged. If that can happen, I think both sides can be happy.

[ejharrington]

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

[ejharrington]

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.
+1

[EvilKing00]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_106.html?fbclid=IwAR3oPJQ20YcQu15CXa2s6 xI1_Ku-U6EWpzpvQELmDSwNRKJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

[oldjudge]

I think all of us would prefer an unrestored to a restored copy of a card. However, sometimes because of price or rarity this is impossible. In those cases I am fine with restored copies. The Wagner is nice looking and will sell for a fraction of what a similar appearing unrestored copy would sell for, bringing it into the availability of more collectors. This is not the only restored copy of a rare card in s current auction. LOTG has a restored Ward Four Base Hits in it's auction ending Saturday. In this case it is literally the only way for a collector to get the card. There are two known copies and the unrestored copy, which sold for between $150,000 and $200,000 in a private sale, is buried in an advanced collection and not coming out. In both cases and others, the restored copy should sell for 10-20% of the unrestored copy, depending on the appearance and the amount of restoration.

[ullmandds]

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1

The hobby has matured in many ways the last 10 or so years...not all for the good...nut maturation has occurred!

[Jobu]

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.


Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

[RedsFan1941]

good luck with the four base hits

[rats60]

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

Re-cutter. The card had already been cut off the strip when he bought it.

[barrysloate]

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

[Republicaninmass]

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

[ejharrington]

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?
It says Restored right on the top

[orly57]

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.

[barrysloate]

It says Restored right on the top

Yes, I know. I would leave the RESTORED part and remove the AUTHENTIC. I really don't feel that is an authentic card in the strictest sense. Parts of it are, but not all of it. At minimum, a better description is warranted.

[GaryPassamonte]

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

[rats60]

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

They had it at the National.

[insidethewrapper]

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

[oldjudge]

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

[Lorewalker]

good luck with the four base hits

LOL. Yeah that was sorta the same thought I had.

[leaflover]

$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.

[calvindog]

I understand that the card is worth at least 200K based on its current price, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it otherwise. I don't mind a trimmed card if the card is impossible to get otherwise -- or prohibitively expensive -- but no way do I want a Frankencard in my collection with unoriginal parts brought into it. It's one thing to color in a border, an entirely different to bring a new border into the card.

[calvindog]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_106.html?fbclid=IwAR3oPJQ20YcQu15CXa2s6 xI1_Ku-U6EWpzpvQELmDSwNRKJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

I would buy the original, not the restored. No way.

[Fred]

$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.

A GEM MINT 10 reprint might cost you a couple more bucks...but at least it's graded and you know it's an authentic reprint.

Is there a link to the auction with the Wagner that was restored to the tune of $14K?

[LincolnVT]

I understand that the card is worth at least 200K based on its current price, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it otherwise. I don't mind a trimmed card if the card is impossible to get otherwise -- or prohibitively expensive -- but no way do I want a Frankencard in my collection with unoriginal parts brought into it. It's one thing to color in a border, an entirely different to bring a new border into the card.

Agreed. If they can add borders, why not just do the corners up as well and make it a gem mint / restored.

[bounce]

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

pics added to the first post for those who aren't able to click through the links provided by Jobu

[bounce]

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

[RedsFan1941]

the nice thing about buying a card that has a border added is you're really getting two cards for the price of one.

[oldjudge]

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

[CobbSpikedMe]

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

I agree with this. In this case, I would rather have the restored version. Although I appreciate anyone else's different opinion.

That's one heck of a restoration job though.

[Bestdj777]

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

I saw it in their case at the Chantilly show in October. I couldn’t see the back. The front looked like an attractive, mid-grade example from a distance. From close up, to me anyway, it looked like someone had hand drawn on some of the lines. The other repairs were not really detectable to my untrained/unassisted eyes, but the lines were.

[calvindog]

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

[ClementeFanOh]

Spot on, Anson. I am into collecting comics just about as deeply as cards, and the term "restored" is frequently used to describe books that are in some way (color, staples, "married" pages, etc) artificially "improved" to enhance appearance. As is proper, these comics do not command the price values of real books of the same issue and title. For those of you who convince yourself that "restoration" is okay because it is done with cars or books, consider that those objects can be made up of hundreds of separate pieces. Cards are just front and a back. Seems pretty cheap to "restore" something like the Wagner compared to restoring a 1940s Rolls Royce, doesn't it? Those of you who can convince yourselves it is okay won't be dissuaded. I, for one, wouldn't own a "restored" card- it is cheating ( it is just that other folks KNOW you are cheating). Sermon over.

[ls7plus]

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1. Nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, and in fact I too believe future collectors will embrace it on that basis. Not that such a restored example of any rare and valuable card will bring the $$ an original would in the same condition, but I think it will eventually be commonplace for such a restoration to be accepted as significantly more valuable than the rag it originally was. After all, who wants to brag they have a Wagner, but when asked to show it, they are too embarassed by it's supreme beater condition to even show it?

Just my humble opinion,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

...

Nope.

Larry

[ls7plus]

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

Now that I would buy!

Hi, Barry,

Larry

[ls7plus]

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

I don't think there will ever be a "right" or "wrong" answer--just preferences, together with price differences between an original and restored version. IMHO, the latter will vary in proportion to the rarity, significance and popularity of the card.

Good thread,

Larry

[ls7plus]

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

I think that depends upon your tolerance for beater supremes, Jeff. Along with my PSA 7 R316 Ott rookie, I have one in SGC poor that I bought on a whim some years ago because it was the best centered one I had ever seen. However, it also has a tack hole through Mel's hat brim, and appears to have had the lower right corner chewed off by the original owner's dog! Some days I can tolerate it and some I have difficulty with even keeping it. The former are when I think of what a truly great player Mel Ott was (155 OPS+, tied with Hank Aaron, and just one point behind Mays; 180% plus of league average runs created, placing him in the same category with each of the two above, along with Mize and Foxx; average full season over his career of approximately .304 BA, 30 HR, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and .414 OBP, 12-time all-star, and 6-time HR leader). I am personally not one who suffers beaters easily unless they are ultra rare and significant, and the '29 R316 Ott, while relatively scarce (the '29 Leader Novelty is out and out rare!), is not rare.

Just had to get that out of my system, I guess. To those of you reading this thread, my apologies for the literary outburst!

Larry

[jfkheat]

I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now

[Pat R]

I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now

The restoration was 9 1/2 years ago.

[biggsdaddycool]

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.



+1


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[slightlyrounded]

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

On the plus side, no centering or corner issues! From the lot description:

"Near-perfect centering between the added upper and side borders, even corner wear reflecting VG/EX quality, and a virtually completely enhanced Sweet Caporal 150 Subject, Factory 25 verso...."

[drcy]

I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.

One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done.

[jason.1969]

Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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[biggsdaddycool]

Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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Or to sell it to a manufacturer as a relic card!


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[mq711]

PSA refused to grade a 71T because they said color was added, why not a restored "grade."

[ClementeFanOh]

Jason and Mike- ahh, the voices of reason! Thanks, guys. You gave voice to what I had trouble expressing late last night (too much turkey, I suppose). In the specific Wagner card that is the topic of this thread, the card is no better than a counterfeit. The original couldn't even be classified as a "card" anymore, it was a rag and thus not even "eligible" (in my mind, merely opinion) for slabbing in the first place. In this case the owner was honest enough to have it marked "restored"- although I think "reanimated" may be closer to the truth. What happens when/if someone does this, breaks it out, and passes it off as authentic- which it is NOT, no argument. It's a slippery slope...
As a comic fan who has an extensive collection, I can tell you I have exactly ZERO comics that have been "restored". The reasons are simple- the restorer had nothing to do with the production of the comic, and less ethical folks will try to pass them off as the real deal.

[LincolnVT]

Why wasn't the original card cut into pieces so that several 200k+ restored cards could be made?

[mrvster]

I am in complete agreement with you :)

[Fred]

Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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That's right, plant the seed.... That's actually a very good point. Either that or have a card company cut up a poor Wagner and then put them in packs like they do with uniforms and bats.

Fixing/filling a pin hole or adding a little color (black on an N300, for example) is one thing, completely reconstructing a card and adding a lot of material is completely different.

[ejharrington]

Does anyone know the selling price of the card before it was restored?

[bounce]

Some good comments and observations so far.

i was surfing around the internet this weekend, and saw several PSA cards marked
AUTHENTIC
ALTERED

Including things like markers to corners, color touch ups, etc.

I realize PSA put "RESTORED" on the Wagner, but wondering if most wouldn't agree that the card wasn't also "ALTERED"?

It was certainly recolored, along with the extensive work on the back.

I'd sure like to hear some commentary from PSA on how they ultimately made this flip determination.

[oldjudge]

Some good comments and observations so far.

i was surfing around the internet this weekend, and saw several PSA cards marked
AUTHENTIC
ALTERED

Including things like markers to corners, color touch ups, etc.

I realize PSA put "RESTORED" on the Wagner, but wondering if most wouldn't agree that the card wasn't also "ALTERED"?

It was certainly recolored, along with the extensive work on the back.

I'd sure like to hear some commentary from PSA on how they ultimately made this flip determination.

You can’t restore the card without altering it. Restored is the only term you need.

[unamuzd1]

Yes, I know. I would leave the RESTORED part and remove the AUTHENTIC. I really don't feel that is an authentic card in the strictest sense. Parts of it are, but not all of it. At minimum, a better description is warranted.
This was my reaction as well.

Of course, I'm one of those weirdos who would rather have the totally-jacked original version in his collection.

[bounce]

You can’t restore the card without altering it. Restored is the only term you need.

"ALTERED" seems to carry a completely different connotation to it than "RESTORED" does, no?

If something is done to a card to make it look better than it did before, why wouldn't RESTORED apply almost every time?

Just wondering how exactly how that determination is made and when it changes from one to another.

[Fred]

At what point do you call a "restoration" something else? What's a term for a "total rebuild" (or complete overhaul) of the card? Adding borders and most likely taking the back from another card and overlaying seems to be a bit more than a "restoration" job. "Altered" seems a bit mild.

[Republicaninmass]

Frame off restoration

[Throttlesteer]

More like putting a Ferrari hood on a Pontiac Fiero.

[oldjudge]

"ALTERED" seems to carry a completely different connotation to it than "RESTORED" does, no?

If something is done to a card to make it look better than it did before, why wouldn't RESTORED apply almost every time?

Just wondering how exactly how that determination is made and when it changes from one to another.

As I understand it, restoration is bringing the card back towards it’s original state. Trimming, for example, may be done to improve its’ appearance, but it, in and of itself, is not restoration.

[slightlyrounded]

These flips are getting ridiculous....

[alywa]

These flips are getting ridiculous....

I think you won the internet for today

[ClementeFanOh]

You're right on target, Anson!

[Pat R]

At what point do you call a "restoration" something else? What's a term for a "total rebuild" (or complete overhaul) of the card? Adding borders and most likely taking the back from another card and overlaying seems to be a bit more than a "restoration" job. "Altered" seems a bit mild.


The way I read the restoration invoice was that most of the
back is original and the scrapbook paper was soaked off. You can see
some of the stains on the restored example that match the original.

[Leon]

As a bit of a purist I like the ragged one better. But it's not by a longshot nor do I matter as I am not spending that kind of money (I don't have that kind of money) on a card. The market will decide. And at the moment it's about a 200k decision. I suspect it gets some more action but who knows? The restored copy looks pretty darned good from a scan on a monitor.

ML auction opened this week, there is some great stuff in there. Got my catalog in the mail yesterday. Was excited to see how the T206 Wagner did. Not a card I can afford, but always like watching the action on these.

The catalog had the regular write-up for a card of this caliber, which in my opinion has gotten so overdone. These cards don't need that level of description and hype, but that's a discussion for another day. What I didn't realize was just how extensive the "restoration" was on this card. The catalog doesn't show the back, but you can see it on the website. The back makes it much easier to see signs of just how much "grafting" of the borders was done. The description almost hypes the $14,000 spent fixing this thing up.

Sure - it looks nice I guess, but as a collector, this thing isn't REALLY a T206 any more.

I've been saying for years now that high end cards act much more like artwork when it comes to pricing, so maybe in some way this kind of thing was to be expected. However, at some level for me, this card has been so altered at this point, it's not really an "original" anymore. Using the artwork analogy, this seems more like a lithograph or a limited edition print than it does an original.

Or maybe think real estate - we can now just invest in some "remodeling" costs to make cards look better? I know there's other things like bleaching, etc. that have been done, not a fan of that either really but this was pretty extensive.

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

[Fred]

The way I read the restoration invoice was that most of the
back is original and the scrapbook paper was soaked off. You can see
some of the stains on the restored example that match the original.

Heck, we can't even trust the restoration invoice.... before/after pictures seem to do a good job.

[dabigyankeeman]

Hard to believe a card could be restored like that. One day nobody will be able to tell a restored card from a real one, then what happens to value and who would want to buy them.

At what point too does an item become NOT the item anymore? If you own an axe used by George Washington and its made up of two pieces, the metal cutting piece and the wood handle, and you first replace the metal cutting piece, then replace the wood handle, is it still George Washingtons axe? I know this is the original card modified, but one day it will be a 99% new, then what is it?

[Fred]

Leon,

Can you please post a link to the item in the auction.

Thanks!

[Tabe]

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,

[Jdoggs]

Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,

Agree the restored version is beautiful. And it's fully disclosed that's it's restored so nothing to hide.

[mrvster]

This card is a "FRANKEN WAGNER":eek:

restoration should be left to art .....NOT CARDS!:eek::confused:

IN MY OPINION, THEY KILLED A BEAUTY !

once something is altered, it changes the integrity of the original card....

trimming, paper loss I can live with.....card is still original in these cases...

this card has been basically "created" and is not original.....

someone ruined a masterpiece and spent 14 k to do it!:eek:

this is insanity.....the card is WAY overpriced right now!


card in current state should be a 100 k card or under......


If I had this, I would spend multi k to see if I could get it "unrestored" although I think in this case might be impossible....


heck, while they were at it, they should have made the background pink and changed han's hairstyle:D

[dabigyankeeman]

I posted earlier in this thread how I hated someone restoring a card then selling it. However, last nite I was watching a Mecum auto auction on tv and I realized that I loved the restored cars they were selling and what is the difference between them and the restored baseball card.

The restored cars I love have a bunch of new parts added that look like the original, they have been re-painted, and so on. It really made me re-thing my attitude towards restoring cards. I dont think I am so negative about them anymore!!

[mrvster]

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they:confused:(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???:confused::)

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????:confused::)

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice:rolleyes:


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!:D:)

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker:D

[ullmandds]

I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!



these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they:confused:(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???:confused::)

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????:confused::)

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice:rolleyes:


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!:D:)

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker:D

[rats60]

I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?

[mrvster]

you and I and a few other "purists" not trying to label us or anyone, I think Jeff might agree and Barry ect.....

This sort of restoration should never make it into cards.......it opens the flood gates !!! this, to me, would ruin part of our hobby in a way.....

forgers and restorers will become synonamous:eek:


there is almost a beauty to cards that may have been well loved and creased and some paper loss, but those are the scars of time.....

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....

hate to use the analogy, fake boobs feel "hard" when touched!:D nice to look at, but they are the doctors creation!:eek: that is a whole other discussion:eek: I wouldn't play with what God created!

God also created the Wagner card.....:D


yes, I like restored cars, especially when you are driving it for safety......an old muscle card with new suspension and brakes are a safety issue, but I still love the "herky jerky " steering of the original muscle car!!

these alterations may enhace the look of titties or handling on a car.....but when it comes to cardboard, it is just not right!!

not all change is good, especially some of the political climate now adays....


but I do know one thing, excepting recreations like this may aid in the further pollution of out hobby...


some asshole will "enhance a t206" by autographing it themselves.....soon cards will have "BUILT UP RESTORED CORNERS" OR "BEAUTIFUL NEW COLOR AND GLOSS"


and all we will have to rely on is a "restorer"


:confused:

[mrvster]

and was going to start this thread, so I am glad the original poster did......I did not want to "dog" this card, or the take away the buyers thunder or the seller.......

yes, I have been searching for a Wagner my whole life(since 11 years old) and came close many years ago , but did not get one.....

and full disclosure- I would take a Wagner anyway I could....I , like many, can not afford one.......so if someone offered this too me at a cheap price, I would take it.....but not even at 10% of what it is now!!!!

this needs to be discussed, because RATS you are 100% correct....


who ever buys this.......have it cut into 24 wagners......and restore each one:eek:


each one can have a "piece" of the original....

then we can truly call it what it is and where to hobby would be going.....


to shit:)

[C-mack]

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?


I'm sure card grading companies much like comic grading companies require X amount of the original to be present for them to give it an grade with restore notations. In comics you cant just have a page of action #1 and recreate the rest and still get a grade,hell you cant even have the whole interior and fake covers and pull that off...

[mrvster]

great point!!

where does it end?????

where do we draw the line????

there is a fine line between restoration and recreation.....where do we draw it in cards????????????

the answer is-


WE DON'T:D


leave them original! unless a light soaking in plain water of foreign material (scrap book removal, simple dirt, ect)

[Snapolit1]

It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.

[mrvster]

grading companies change the rules all the time.......sometimes just to fit their needs.....

who is to say what percentage the card needs to be to be considered original?>??


i'll say it.....ALL OF IT!!

if it is trimmed, it can get and authentic....

once ANYTHING, I MEAN ANYTHING IS ADDED TO A CARD...the card is no longer an original...it is a recreation

:)

it is a simple as that


THE WAGNER SHOULD READ- "RECREATION"

[ullmandds]

It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.

I agree...as long as it is disclosed...I'm ok with it. BUT...when cards like this are sold/auctioned the before and after should always be shown...we shouldn't have to hunt for it.

[mrvster]

I wonder what type of ink was used for all the touch up????? the shit from a photo copier??? or did they hit Sherman Williams?????


also, I wonder if they went green and used recycled cardboard ????? or just hacked up another T206???? I wonder if the used a TITUS???:D:)


I can go on, and on....

[ullmandds]

I wonder what type of ink was used for all the touch up????? the shit from a photo copier??? or did they hit Sherman Williams?????


also, I wonder if they went green and used recycled cardboard ????? or just hacked up another T206???? I wonder if the used a TITUS???:D:)


I can go on, and on....

Hopefully they used a titus Johny...or maybe a scrap!!!!! I'd assume any card restorer worth their weight in cardboard would destroy another t206 for the mulch needed for restoration.

[mrvster]

excellent point.....

there should be FULL DISCLOSURE! putting that in the description was purposely left out....jeeze...every ah puts in a whole blown up financial analysis .... why wouldn't they put this in????:confused: it truly shows how extensive this franken - wagner is......full disclosure would have shown the card used to add to the borders....

the invoice and before and after pic should have been in the description....

it really shows how EXTENSIVE THE RECREATION IS!:D

spend a quarter of a million on a re creation????? :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

They say, to each his own.

In this case, each can keep his own, as far as I am concerned. Awful.

[mrvster]

pete!! hahaha...wouldn't that be great!!!! maybe some particle board is in there??????????? why not some mulch???? hahahaha!!! why not throw a scrap in there???

btw....who was the restorer???? some 17 year old school kid???????? hahahaha

buwhahahaha!!!:D:)


Peter....+1

I can go on all day about this......maybe the restorer signed the card somewhere???? I wonder if he hid a hidden meaning in the mosaic litho print in the background when it was recolored(like - sucka)
?????????:confused:


hahahaha!!!

[mq711]

This is like getting the seats of a 65 Mustang and using a "kit car" to rebuild the vehicle. Looks nice but is it really a Classic Car?

[mrvster]

exactly!! in all credit to this, at least the image of wagner was there.....but you are right...

who is to say "the restorer" did not enhance the wagner image????????????

???????

it is all what "the restorer" decided to write down on the invoice....what if he/she did more and forgot to invoice it??????????


point is, this card has gone too far and should not be considered authentic because the integrity of the card has been compromised .....too much has been done to it.....it has been basically "re created" with wagner parts:)

[drcy]

To me, whether or one would buy it is one issue (and a matter of personal taste-- and some people collect reprints), and whether or not it is an authentic/original card is another.

I would have no interest in owning the card and consider it a bit of a 'Frankenstein,' but am aware that's a matter of my sentiments and won't argue against those who would buy it. I may question their taste though ;)

Duly note that I like colorized old movies-- Laurel & Hardy, etc--, so am not a zealot.

[steve B]

Coins are restored or "conserved" to some extent, and it's even done by the grading companies. (Not real sure how I think about that.... )
https://news.coinupdate.com/testing-the-pcgs-restoration-service/

Other stuff has been done for years, like filling in holes where the coin was drilled to make jewelery, or removing solder, etc. Pretty much any silver coin that looks silver has had tarnish removed.
All of which usually decrease the value except the tarnish removal, which can go either way.

Stamps are also restored. It's a bit controversial, the national collecting organization expects all restored stamps to be marked with indelible ink. At least one restorer won't do that unless it's requested. As usual, undescribed restoration is unacceptable. And even described restoration can affect value. The second item down here has a restoration and didn't sell for much compared to others.

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/y/y92368.cfm


For some items, conservation and/or restoration is appropriate. Especially deacidifying really bad paper that's in poor condition and will eventually destroy itself. Most strip cards would be good candidates for that.


I collect bicycles, and have "restored" some. Not total restorations as we see with cars, although that's also done.
Here are a couple examples. None of what was done can't be reversed with an hour or so of work.

1920's motorpacing bike. As found, apparently converted to a bike for getting around or for warmups after a pretty serious crash.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=25786

And after locating the right size front wheel, chainring, type of handlebars, and a few other parts.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=15693


Second, a bike used to win a gold medal in team pursuit at the Pan-Am games in 1983. As found.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=25787


And after locating or making a bunch of special parts that aren't available.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=25788

Obviously, neither is 100% original, but the pros swapped out parts for nearly every race. And neither was even close to original as found.
When I showed pictures of the 1983 bike to the guy who originally built it I told him I didn't do a good enough job on the front hub as it really wasn't all that close to what I'd seen in pictures. He told me not to worry, making a hub wasn't easy, and that there were probably only a handful of people who would know the hub wasn't quite right and that I would be the only one who cared. Also, that they had experimented with a number of hubs and other parts, and that at least one set looked nearly identical to what I'd made. :)

Restoration is always a bit tricky, how far to take things, and which things to change. With paper stuff at least to me it's more about preservation, cleaning, deacidifying (actually not needed for T206s)

I'd also prefer the un-restored card, but it's not for everyone.

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they:confused:(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???:confused::)

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????:confused::)

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice:rolleyes:


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!:D:)

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker:D

[mrvster]

great job on the bikes! you even took the wrong parts and put the right ones on it:)

[OlderTheBetter]

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.


I don't have a problem with restoration as long as full disclosure happens. People can spend their money how they see fit. Large-scale restoration is expensive and requires a great deal of skill to do well -- I don't see it being done for cards that the average collector could ever afford.

IMHO the hobby has quite a few more serious problems that are not going away any time soon.

Lesser alteration is much more widespread than restoration and it's been going on for a long time and is only going to be more prevalent in the future.

What I think is even more insidious and potentially crippling to the hobby is the proliferation of high-quality reprints and counterfeits. They are being more skillfully produced all the time and even artificially aged when needed. The day is not far off when almost all cards worth $100 or more that are traded or sold on the market will require third-party authentication. Some people say we're already at that point now. For those that are willing to pay the higher cost of graded cards it's not an issue; for collectors just wanting decent raw vintage cards at a decent price it's going to be a rocky road.

As long as people are willing to pay insane prices for small pieces of cardboard (mass-produced so not comparable to most fine art in that respect) then there will be those willing to provide what appears to be real but isn't. It's a target rich environment for the grifters. The people that restore cards with disclosure are not that.

[biggsdaddycool]

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?



This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Throttlesteer]

This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

China is busy cloning them

[biggsdaddycool]

China is busy cloning them



This may not be far from the truth, with the hobby becoming increasingly global and “investment” centered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ls7plus]

It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.

That's the be-all and end-all bottom line, to me.

Hi Steve,

Larry

[benjulmag]

I don't have a problem with restoration as long as full disclosure happens. People can spend their money how they see fit. Large-scale restoration is expensive and requires a great deal of skill to do well -- I don't see it being done for cards that the average collector could ever afford.

IMHO the hobby has quite a few more serious problems that are not going away any time soon.

Lesser alteration is much more widespread than restoration and it's been going on for a long time and is only going to be more prevalent in the future.

What I think is even more insidious and potentially crippling to the hobby is the proliferation of high-quality reprints and counterfeits. They are being more skillfully produced all the time and even artificially aged when needed. The day is not far off when almost all cards worth $100 or more that are traded or sold on the market will require third-party authentication. Some people say we're already at that point now. For those that are willing to pay the higher cost of graded cards it's not an issue; for collectors just wanting decent raw vintage cards at a decent price it's going to be a rocky road.

As long as people are willing to pay insane prices for small pieces of cardboard (mass-produced so not comparable to most fine art in that respect) then there will be those willing to provide what appears to be real but isn't. It's a target rich environment for the grifters. The people that restore cards with disclosure are not that.

I agree that as long as there is full disclosure as to what was done to the card, to each his/her own as to the card's desirability and value. Collecting by its nature is subjective, and if someone gets pleasure out of owing such a card, what's wrong with that? That said, grading companies might want to consider making a fuller disclosure than simply referring to the card as "restored". As this thread amply demonstrates, restored has different meanings to different people. One remedy would be for the flip to show before and after images of the card, so the prospective purchaser would have more complete info as to what was done.

My biggest concern, which Dave's post well states, is the day is not far off (and may already be here) when reproductions will be so good that one will not be able to tell a counterfeit from an original. And I am not persuaded that grading companies will be able to tell either, at least not with their current methods. I believe in time provenance will matter more and more as to the value of a card, both as to whether the card has been altered and also as to whether the card is real.

[Touch'EmAll]

I would consider this - to what degree is this a restored card. A little here, maybe little there, or a major complete 100% overhaul that bears absolutely positively no resemblance of the original? A filled pinhole, maybe ok, a corner press or soak also maybe ok, a tad of color added, ok. But I wouldn't touch this (knowing) with a 10 ft., er 100 ft. pole !

[tothrk]

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

[mrvster]

+1
I can't agree more.....I'm just like you.....

if we accept this as collectors, its hard to draw the line.....

almost like "manufacturing rarity".........if you want that, buy new cards:)


vintage cards should not be tampered with by altering, once that is done, the card has no more integrity than the seller:)

[mrvster]

the flip should read

"FRANKEN - WAGNER" :D

[pokerplyr80]

I wouldn't buy one personally but as everything they did in the restoration is documented and there was no attempt to deceive collectors I have no problem with this.

[darwinbulldog]

How this hasn't yet led to a spin-off "I like my Wagners like my women" thread is quite beyond me.

[alywa]

How this hasn't yet led to a spin-off "I like my Wagners like my women" thread is quite beyond me.

Authentic and a little rough around the edges?

[steve B]

great job on the bikes! you even took the wrong parts and put the right ones on it:)


Thanks!


I'd planned on doing an actual restoration on the motorpacing bike, new paint, new chrome,... Way beyond my budget.

It has a bad dent in the back, so I knew it had been crashed. When I was rebuilding it, I had the fork out and thought it was plugged with dirt or maybe a wood dowel. Nope, it had cracked nearly all the way across, been plugged across the crack with a pressed in steel rod that was pinned in place. I really had to look for the pins. Beautiful repair, done whenever it was crashed, probably in the 1930's. I just couldn't restore it after finding that.


I generally don't call them restored, as I don't touch the original paint. I usually go with "reconstructed" since very few of the parts are original.


Now the really old hydraulic jack I did that was basically encased in a ball of dirt when I got it... yeah, that's restored. Amazingly, the original leather seals were still good.

[steve B]

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.


That's an excellent question!


Magies can probably be identified by particular flaws on the front/back. I haven't done much with the scans I've saved off lately, but there were specific things that I was seeing only on Magies


So that's a bigger question. How far to go in restoring?

[22eckstein]

As a t206 collector myself I actually prefer when cards do not look "pristine" I love the way that wagner looked originally, Would never buy that after it was restored.

[benjulmag]

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

[Leon]

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

[drmondobueno]

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

Nope.

[benjulmag]

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

Leon, that would be one helluva of a job of trimming--leaving only the bottom border! :) BUT, hypothetically, as you say, if that was to be done, great question how the hobby would regard the final outcome.

The Just So, as I recall, retained the original player image and inserted new borders cannibalized from another (actress subject) Just So.

[rats60]

Any opinions on this now that it sold for 420k? 2 years ago REA sold a SGC 10 for 444k and now a restored one brings almost the same price.

[ullmandds]

Any opinions on this now that it sold for 420k? 2 years ago REA sold a SGC 10 for 444k and now a restored one brings almost the same price.

I believe this Sale is evidence of maturation of the hobby amongst collectors/investors. As more people enter the hobby with deep pockets who may know/care less about the hobby And just have to have a particular cardthe idea of restorations alterations are becoming more Acceptable like other aspects of the art/collecting world.

Many collectors used to have the opinion that it’s better to have a hole in a card than a hole in your collection. Personally I never accepted this doctrine as I sought creasefree presentable cards irrespective of the actual numerical grade. As time went on myself and others realized that some cards are in such short supply that you just need to take whatever is available if you eally wanted that card. Similarly are used to hate altered cards even if they presented well where as now I think a lot of collectors are more inclined to pick up these beautifully presenting cards even though they have been slightly altered as opposed to ugly examples in lower grade.

[rats60]

Slightly altered would be soaked, pressed corner or crease, trimmed edge, etc. This card went through major restoration. It is understandable demand of low pop cards in low grade or even altered cards that look nice. However, this card had 3 borders cut off. By restoring it does that make it worth more? Or is this the bottom on price now and altered or low grade worth more than before?

[ullmandds]

Slightly altered would be soaked, pressed corner or crease, trimmed edge, etc. This card went through major restoration. It is understandable demand of low pop cards in low grade or even altered cards that look nice. However, this card had 3 borders cut off. By restoring it does that make it worth more? Or is this the bottom on price now and altered or low grade worth more than before?

i'm aware of the restoration that was done on this wagner...my point being "restoration" is being more accepted in the hobby...imo.

[rats60]

i'm aware of the restoration that was done on this wagner...my point being "restoration" is being more accepted in the hobby...imo.

I understand that. My question is how does the restoration price relate to the altered price or the "beater" price now? I always thought that it was much less. So is this sale a change in thinking or does it drive up the value of others?

[ullmandds]

Time will tell I suppose??

[Touch'EmAll]

Perhaps third party graders should have 2 separate designations - authentic, and authentic restored. Or is it already too late for that?

[mrvster]

card is not authentic when it has been altered this much......if this is where the hobby is going, I don't like it one bit! card went way too much:eek:

full disclosure: I would take it if it was given to me;)

but........................

it's not an "original" card!!!.....a major restoration on cards, art, antiques, I get it, but not one cards....:eek: it changes the original integrity of the card where extent of future restoration of cards will be blurred.....meaning soon you wont be able to tell where the original ends and the "new" "restored " pieces are added...

condition of the original will not matter anymore....if you have enough cash you can just make it gem mint!:eek:

who is too say what was "unrestored" and what is "original" if a card is restored, holdered, then cracked out???? soon we won't be able to tell...

all previous cards grades will be useless....

just "build up the soft corners", "touch up" or add more back on that broadleaf 460....

this is opening a major can of worms and I don't like it

[Touch'EmAll]

Could we get one true beater, cut it up into tiny bits, then “restore” each bit to now have, say, a dozen authentic cards?

[oldjudge]

In answer to the original question, I think we should feel happy for someone who got a card that he obviously really wanted. If it is not something that we would like (I really don't like the appearance of the card, but I am not against restoration) then we should not buy similar cards. However, we should always be happy for passionate collectors adding to their collections.

[ullmandds]

Could we get one true beater, cut it up into tiny bits, then “restore” each bit to now have, say, a dozen authentic cards?

i think this gets to be cost prohibitive?

[mrvster]

not really! spring $400 k for a psa 1 .....the spend 20 k per card to add other T206 cardboard....."create" 12 cards " frankenwagners" sell 12 frankenwagners like the memory lane ...... be on easy street:)

cost:

$400,000.00 original + $20,000(restoration fee) (12)=

$640,000 K total cost

sell 12 "franken-wagners" @ =$420,000.00 (12)= $5,040,000.00

$5,040,000.00 revenue

$5,040,000.00 (revenue) - $640,000.00 (cost)= $4,400,000.00


4.2 million dollar profit from one original :)


DEFINITELY COST EFFECTIVE:)

[mrvster]

definitely happy for the guy who won it! he must be very wealthy to drop almost a half million on a "re creation":D

[ullmandds]

not really! spring $400 k for a psa 1 .....the spend 20 k per card to add other T206 cardboard....."create" 12 cards " frankenwagners" sell 12 frankenwagners like the memory lane ...... be on easy street:)

cost:

$400,000.00 original + $20,000(restoration fee) (12)=

$640,000 K total cost

sell 12 "franken-wagners" @ =$420,000.00 (12)= $5,040,000.00

$5,040,000.00 revenue

$5,040,000.00 (revenue) - $640,000.00 (cost)= $4,400,000.00


4.2 million dollar profit from one original :)


DEFINITELY COST EFFECTIVE:)

there you have it...a career for someone who wants one!!!!!!

[mrvster]

hahaha!!!

the t206 auto forger is probably working on this now!

Hell......topps should buy a wagner and make "piece of history cards"

put 1/32 of a wagner on each insert(like a bat card) sell $20,000 each!

32 cards X 20,000k per insert = $640,000

beater $250k- $400 k

make a quarter million dollar profit:D

[mrvster]

sale of this "creation " will definitely set an ugly precedent.......:eek:




cars, art, I get......maybe even coins stretching it!



but stamps, paper currency and especially sports cards HELL NO!

[C-mack]

Could we get one true beater, cut it up into tiny bits, then “restore” each bit to now have, say, a dozen authentic cards?


No it doesnt work that way , so much of the original has to be there ...

[mrvster]

at what percentage of a restored card original cardboard is needed to consider it original???

1/32 nd???( 3.125%)..........1/10 th???(10 %)......1/5 th????(20 %).....

1/2 ???(50 %):confused:

[mrvster]

this is what I'm saying......

sometimes we will "never know".....if you don't have a before and after photo....

the franken wagner that just sold maybe was 65% original???
when you consider the coardboard, the extra glue, ink ect....


it becomes too subjective...

too much liability to forgery and fraud....

the hobby is polluted with this stank already...

excepting this "restoration/recreations" is setting a future precendent that opens the floodgates to fraud and future forgeries.....

it will pollute the hobby further......cards will be "restored" and "recreated" and "enhanced", and not holdered, or slipped by graders ect...opens us up to too much shit....

trust me, this is not a good thing:o


this worries me......future graded cards may actually be "restored"


build up a corner here and there, add some ink, ugh, YUCK:eek:

[C-mack]

Well all you have to do is call psa or sgc and see what thier stance on the subject is but I'm sure it's well over 50% , most of the card is there so it seems like a perfect candidate for the work. It's not like the restored work is fooling the graders so I dont the fear of Fraud with this stuff happening

[rats60]

hahaha!!!

the t206 auto forger is probably working on this now!

Hell......topps should buy a wagner and make "piece of history cards"

put 1/32 of a wagner on each insert(like a bat card) sell $20,000 each!

32 cards X 20,000k per insert = $640,000

beater $250k- $400 k

make a quarter million dollar profit:D

But what if someone get the piece that wasn't part of the original Wagner, but part of the restoration? Will Topps designated that like they do game-used jersey piece vs. event-worn jersey piece?

[mrvster]

lol.....no.....saying topps buy a 100% original and chop it up(not a franken one)

[mrvster]

this particular card ....we had the "before" and "after" pictures.....plus had the restoration report.....

btw....the restoration report may not be accurate??? who is to say???maybe the original conservator forgot to document something else that was done????


btw...I will go out on a limb and say both SGC and PSA are absolutely CLUELESS sometimes...they change their minds and policies on grading cards....at one time they were grading errors , no names, color variations( sgc at least).....then they became "skittish"


PSA are also clueless.....I doubt they would be able to tell all of the restoration that is / or will be performed and the cards in the future....

will all of these "future" restored cards have a "restoration report"???

I doubt it:rolleyes:


PSA and SGC will not care, they get big bucks to slap these big cards in a piece of plastic and print "restored" on the flip.......then they get prob $3,000 to grade a card like the frankenwagner....


did psa produce a "restoration report" on this card?????:confused:

NO

they got paid either way....and covered their asses by labeling "restored"....


you think they would include their own findings???? like research the card and actually verify what the conservator did??? and produce their own report on the card....that would be too much work and cost too much:) like the litho background was it reproduced by the "fill in ink???" I highly doubt it...


this is a shitshow!:eek:

hell, if I owned a grading company, I would at the very least scan every card that was graded and keep at least a data base....

:confused:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say/assume that PSA probably didn't even keep a high res scan of the card before it was graded....:eek:


card restoration opens up too many "what ifs" and grey area........simply stated this will increase fraud prob 10 fold....

JOHN VANDERBECK

[mrvster]

PSA did not include a grading report, they would prob be afraid of the liability of "missing something" in the report....so it's much easier to just say "RESTORED" ....print a 20 cent label.....seal an almost half a million dollar card in a 2 dollar piece of plastic, while some 18 year old kid for all we know sealed it up:D in the back room.....c'mon.....this shit is common sense!

include credentials of the grader, include the amount of time spent grading the card, include the "extent " and detailed list either corroborating what the original restoration or "re creation" report either disclosed or didn't...then collect you r multi k grading fee...


such a "high" profile card should be thoroughly evaluated, documented, scanned, and a detailed list cross checking what was "allegedly" done to the card to "restore" in this case "re create" the card......

I'm sorry again PSA .... I have to say this is weak......if card restoration will be accepted in the future, include and disclose all this info, before and after pictures , and detailed info from the grader! just to mention a few .... especially on such high profile cards......then justify the high price to slab it...


even then I still would steer clear of any of these "creations"

to each his own, but don't f up our hobby even more:)


JOHN VANDERBECK:)

[mrvster]

I have always wanted to start my own grading company.....I have many ideas:)
collector / customer focused

[mrvster]

if you are the one who won the Wagner congrats ! to each his own.....I do not want to take away from your card/excitement or anything......I was realizing not fair of me....please forgive, my favorite card is the Wagner, so I get passionate about it....didn't mean to beat it up too much:)

I also hate restored cards as you can see:)

[Jdoggs]

PSA 1 Wagner sold last year by scp auctions for $609k. So for restored Wagner to sell for $420k is about the going rate. Congrats to the new owner.

[benjulmag]

In answer to the original question, I think we should feel happy for someone who got a card that he obviously really wanted. If it is not something that we would like (I really don't like the appearance of the card, but I am not against restoration) then we should not buy similar cards. However, we should always be happy for passionate collectors adding to their collections.

+1

To each his own, which is what collecting is all about.

[GasHouseGang]

hahaha!!!

the t206 auto forger is probably working on this now!

Hell......topps should buy a wagner and make "piece of history cards"

put 1/32 of a wagner on each insert(like a bat card) sell $20,000 each!

32 cards X 20,000k per insert = $640,000

beater $250k- $400 k

make a quarter million dollar profit:D

AND you'd be helping the market for all those that still own a real Wagner by reducing the quantity available. Win, win!

[ls7plus]

PSA 1 Wagner sold last year by scp auctions for $609k. So for restored Wagner to sell for $420k is about the going rate. Congrats to the new owner.

+1. It's purely a matter of personal taste, IMHO, rather than right or wrong, as long as it is disclosed. The market will determine the value.

High regards to all that agree and that disagree,

Larry

[jchcollins]

Everything I could possibly think of to say about that Wagner I think has already been said in this thread. It's bizarre, and no the Wagner is technically not unique, but it's close enough to being unique that I think it makes for an almost one of a kind situation with that type of restoration / overhaul. If it floats your boat and you've got nearly half a million bills to put down on a single baseball card, then more power to you.

What I wanted to hone in a bit more on that was sort of addressed here is the "acceptability" of other minor doctoring / restoration in other cases. Whether you are ok with that or if you frown upon it, it's happened for decades now and there are even plenty of slabbed / authenticated / number graded cards that have some of this work done. With all of the other growing number of misses that we have seen in recent times with PSA, SGC and others - you know that's true even if you don't like to think about it.

The question I would pose is the difference between honest wear / damage to a card vs. "dishonest" in the attempt to make a card look better. That's the only way I know to describe it - if we are all cool with a ding or a crease that a card got 60 years ago because some kid was rough with it, but aren't cool with a touched up corner because it was obviously done in an attempt to make something look better than it was - is that really the question? There seems to be some romantic notion that pervades vintage cards about worn material "telling a story." But does it really? In some cases, I mean how do you KNOW for 100% certainty that this mark on that card was done intentionally, but that mark on the other card was the result of honest wear when Timmy took the card out of the pack in 1958? I like the idea of the romanticism, the story as well - but at the end of the day baseball cards can't talk. They can't give us the full scoop on their entire provenance. So how do you really know? It's the "honest v. dishonest" thing I think that interests me. About a decade ago, SGC authenticated but refused to slab my '56 Topps Mantle because of the suspicion of "color added" to one corner. It actually wasn't color, it was an erasure - I know; I did it myself years before that (and before the advent of professional grading) to remove a small black stain on the border / corner of what was probably otherwise a VG-EXish card. In the end, I traded the stain for a bit of paper loss on that corner, that was the end effect of the erasure and what SGC thought looked funny in terms of color. Given the changes in the hobby and TPA today, I'm not sure on balance I would change anything. I have no plans to sell the card, it's been in my personal collection for nearly 30 years now - but if I did, I would fully disclose what had been done to it. And as far as eye appeal, I'm happy still - because the card does look better with a slight erasure and maybe an odd color at one corner (if you really look at it...) than it did with the previous stain.

I say all that to ask I guess - what is worse? Me intentionally doing a little bit of sprucing up to make a card look better, or if Timmy from the 1950's had the same card and it somehow wound up with an ugly crease across the Mick's face? At the end of the day, the card is an inanimate object. It has no memory or secrets to tell. It doesn't care whether it was "doctored" or simply played with too much. Not only that, but in many cases I'm left to wonder how some "expert" really knows 100% of the time the difference between "altered" and honestly damaged. Am I right? Sorry but I would rather have my card every time. And in the end I think it does come down in certain cases to what was the person's intention with the card? We are making judgments on condition and wear not only on physical appearance but on the person's intent when it was done. At some point carrying that out into extreme minutia or detail becomes ridiculous, at least IMHO. Beyond just my example though, I mean how many cards have had a layered corner flipped back down and then put into a slab at a higher grade? You know this happens. Where do you draw the line?

Just food for thought.

[bounce]

The question I would pose is the difference between honest wear / damage to a card vs. "dishonest" in the attempt to make a card look better.

Just food for thought.

Good post. I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and I feel like it's spurred some good thought and discussion.

On your post specifically, ask yourself those same questions from two different contexts:
1) How/why does it matter if I'm really just "collecting"
2) How/why does it matter if I'm really just "investing"

Clearly there is no right answer to the questions above, and one is not inherently "better" than the other. What I was interested to hear, and why I started the thread, is how the hobby more broadly is/has evolved and may evolve further in the future. I'm interested in others opinions about what makes certain cards valuable, how much restoration is "too much" or maybe there isn't such a thing. What is most people's perception of value, and how much of that is driven by "original" versus "looks good". Do the TPAs have any responsibility to assist in measuring/describing restoration work, and what responsibility if any do we think sellers in general and auction houses specifically have related to it.

Good stuff, keep it coming.

[mrvster]

hello...

I really hope I'm not hogging this thread.....

I feel a restoration like this turns the card or should I say"MORPHS" the card into a "CREATION"........

rolling out a wrinkle, pulling a layered corner back , writing on a card, erasing a part, soaking in WATER, .......this has gone on since cards were collected, they technically really don't effect the original intergrity of the card( I know writing and erasing is borderline)....


BUT- "recreating" a card basically like this "Franken wag" is unacceptable...

it no longer becomes a T206.....

it's like a transgender cardboard....


where did the cardboard come from to add to the border???? conservator you would hope used another T206 like Chance ....??? but he could have used toilet paper for all we know!:eek:


point is pure and simple- once you start adding "foreign items" - glue, ink, cardboard....it is no longer authentic....


ONLY PART IS AUTHENTIC!!!

simple concept.....it has become "other than T206"

a new creation...


question.....if this was done to a HEINIE WAGNER- would SGC or PSA slab it as AUTHENTIC RESTORED??????????????


HELL NO!

this is crazy talk.....I'm losing it!

if we accept this , it opens the flood gates...:eek:


if I have a slabbed jeter foil graded with added tin foil, its a shit card to me! should never be graded as authentic card! it is reengineered....

the Wagner is a natural beauty that someone took a shit on!

forget about the pig and lipstick analogy....

I apologize for saying this, and NO DISRESPECT to the owner CONGRATS~!

I need to say this......


am I jealous??? yes, anyone would love to own even a piece of a wagner, its my dream, but looking at this is like taking that Farah Faucet poster and adding fake tits on her and reprinting it....sure looks great! but wait until you feel them:)


my apologies for being so graphic

John Vanderbeck

[luciobar1980]

Are you going to have an aneurysm over this?? :eek:
hello...

I really hope I'm not hogging this thread.....

I feel a restoration like this turns the card or should I say"MORPHS" the card into a "CREATION"........

rolling out a wrinkle, pulling a layered corner back , writing on a card, erasing a part, soaking in WATER, .......this has gone on since cards were collected, they technically really don't effect the original intergrity of the card( I know writing and erasing is borderline)....


BUT- "recreating" a card basically like this "Franken wag" is unacceptable...

it no longer becomes a T206.....

it's like a transgender cardboard....


where did the cardboard come from to add to the border???? conservator you would hope used another T206 like Chance ....??? but he could have used toilet paper for all we know!:eek:


point is pure and simple- once you start adding "foreign items" - glue, ink, cardboard....it is no longer authentic....


ONLY PART IS AUTHENTIC!!!

simple concept.....it has become "other than T206"

a new creation...


question.....if this was done to a HEINIE WAGNER- would SGC or PSA slab it as AUTHENTIC RESTORED??????????????


HELL NO!

this is crazy talk.....I'm losing it!

if we accept this , it opens the flood gates...:eek:


if I have a slabbed jeter foil graded with added tin foil, its a shit card to me! should never be graded as authentic card! it is reengineered....

the Wagner is a natural beauty that someone took a shit on!

forget about the pig and lipstick analogy....

I apologize for saying this, and NO DISRESPECT to the owner CONGRATS~!

I need to say this......


am I jealous??? yes, anyone would love to own even a piece of a wagner, its my dream, but looking at this is like taking that Farah Faucet poster and adding fake tits on her and reprinting it....sure looks great! but wait until you feel them:)


my apologies for being so graphic

John Vanderbeck

[luciobar1980]

Are you going to have an aneurysm over this?? :eek:
hello...

I really hope I'm not hogging this thread.....

I feel a restoration like this turns the card or should I say"MORPHS" the card into a "CREATION"........

rolling out a wrinkle, pulling a layered corner back , writing on a card, erasing a part, soaking in WATER, .......this has gone on since cards were collected, they technically really don't effect the original intergrity of the card( I know writing and erasing is borderline)....


BUT- "recreating" a card basically like this "Franken wag" is unacceptable...

it no longer becomes a T206.....

it's like a transgender cardboard....


where did the cardboard come from to add to the border???? conservator you would hope used another T206 like Chance ....??? but he could have used toilet paper for all we know!:eek:


point is pure and simple- once you start adding "foreign items" - glue, ink, cardboard....it is no longer authentic....


ONLY PART IS AUTHENTIC!!!

simple concept.....it has become "other than T206"

a new creation...


question.....if this was done to a HEINIE WAGNER- would SGC or PSA slab it as AUTHENTIC RESTORED??????????????


HELL NO!

this is crazy talk.....I'm losing it!

if we accept this , it opens the flood gates...:eek:


if I have a slabbed jeter foil graded with added tin foil, its a shit card to me! should never be graded as authentic card! it is reengineered....

the Wagner is a natural beauty that someone took a shit on!

forget about the pig and lipstick analogy....

I apologize for saying this, and NO DISRESPECT to the owner CONGRATS~!

I need to say this......


am I jealous??? yes, anyone would love to own even a piece of a wagner, its my dream, but looking at this is like taking that Farah Faucet poster and adding fake tits on her and reprinting it....sure looks great! but wait until you feel them:)


my apologies for being so graphic

John Vanderbeck

[mrvster]

:D

I can't help it.....this card is pivotal ........ it basically making "restoration" mainstream, as I am a card purist...........accepting this opens a real mess:mad: