Small crease on Ryan PSA 6

[Mountaineer1999]

I bought this card on EBay and it has a small crease on the back, do I have any options with PSA ? I dont think any visible creases are allowed on an EX-Mt PSA 6 card.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F27 3487717938

[savedfrommyspokes]

I have a 1952 Topps card that is a PSA 6 and has a light wrinkle on the back. The irony is I bought that card to replace a PSA 5 copy of the same card with a wrinkle on the back. I feel your frustration, but I am not sure if you have any recourse with either the seller or PSA.

[Mountaineer1999]

Ok thanks.. very disappointing to day the least.

[bnorth]

Ok thanks.. very disappointing to day the least.

I don't see why you can't return it to the eBay seller if you are not happy with it.

[Pat R]

Where's the crease Donnie? I can't find it even with the big scans.

[savedfrommyspokes]

I don't see why you can't return it to the eBay seller if you are not happy with it.

Ben, the ebay seller "does not accept returns", but it obviously could not hurt to ask. In the case a seller does not accept returns, ebay will be less likely to require the seller to accept a return unless the seller essentially lied about something in the listing.

[silvor]

Ben, the ebay seller "does not accept returns", but it obviously could not hurt to ask. In the case a seller does not accept returns, ebay will be less likely to require the seller to accept a return unless the seller essentially lied about something in the listing.

Not true at all. You can return it no matter.

Ask for a return from the seller. If he says no, go to ebay and ask for a return. Your case is better if you say you didn't know about the crease.

[pokerplyr80]

Most people would assume a psa 6 would not have a crease. If the seller didn't mention it in their description just return it and list not as described as the reason.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Not true at all. You can return it no matter.

Ask for a return from the seller. If he says no, go to ebay and ask for a return. Your case is better if you say you didn't know about the crease.

As a buyer, not my experience at all. When a seller specifies "Seller does not accept returns", it means that unless the item is grossly mis-described OR is the wrong item altogether, your return is not likely going to be accepted by the seller or approved by ebay. In most cases, sellers specifies "Seller does not accept returns" for a reason, and ebay will support them in most cases.

Sure, the buyer in this case can try to find a reason that this card does not match the sellers description ("1968 topps rookie of nolan ryan. Graded PSA 6" )and maybe get ebay to approve the return if the seller does not, but with a graded card like this a return approved by ebay is not likely.

In this case, the information provided by the seller in the listing concerning the card and his return policy make it hard to argue a "not as described" claim with ebay...ebay will likely view this as buyer's remorse, especially if the seller calls and speaks to a human at ebay.

Recently, I received several grossly overstated raw lots of cards and had to make multiple phone calls to a live human at ebay as well as provide a series of images supporting my claim that the seller overstated the condition of what they sold to me. Eventually, ebay approved the returns, but my returns were for grossly mis-described items, not an item that there is a question about if the item was mis-described in it's listing by the seller or not.

Perhaps you have had much easier experiences returning items to sellers with "Seller does not accept returns" stated in their listing, but this is not my experience. I obviously pay more attention to this detail when buying.

However, it absolutely does not hurt to try.

[Mountaineer1999]

The crease is just to the left of the 1 in 1968.. gonna try to upload a snapshot

[Mountaineer1999]

There is no way I would have bid on this card if I could have seen the crease. I will contact seller but I am not optimistic.

[savedfrommyspokes]

There is no way I would have bid on this card if I could have seen the crease. I will contact seller but I am not optimistic.

It certainly could not hurt to ask the seller/ebay if returning is an option based on the crease, as anything is possible. With a graded card and the seller's return policy, your optimism is realistic. If have no luck with a return through the seller or ebay and you paid with Paypal, you may have better luck filing a NAD/return case through paypal.

[swarmee]

Or you could submit it to PSA as a review with a MinGrade of AUTH and tell them you expect a downgrade and to be reimbursed for the difference in values between the new grade of the card and what you paid.
Otherwise, the Item Not As Described is correct. If you try to return it or message the seller saying you don't want it anymore, you will get stonewalled.

[swarmee]

*double post*

[Pat R]

There is no way I would have bid on this card if I could have seen the crease. I will contact seller but I am not optimistic.

Even though the seller provided a large picture there is no way
you could have seen the crease.

331425

[hcv123]

Even though the seller provided a large picture there is no way
you could have seen the crease.

331425

That crease is obvious enough in the OP's post, outside of picture manipulation, I'm not sure how that doesn't show up in scan from listing??

[chalupacollects]

Angle of sellers photo and flash could make crease disappear. Even though seller does not accept returns ebay is very buyer friendly, Contact seller first and if they say sorry, no returns go to ebay as NAD..ebay can force the return... If that fails hit Paypal if you paid that way...

[savedfrommyspokes]

If the seller is not agreeable to a return, ebay maybe less likely to support a NAD claim as under item specifics the seller used the following to describe the item: "Condition: Very Good: An item that is used but still in very good condition. "

When ebay reviews NAD claims, especially involving items where the seller does not accept returns, they do review what the seller stated as the condition to be in the item specifics area.

While PSA appears to have botched the grading on this card, the seller calling this card VG in the item specifics area is spot on.

[rats60]

When a seller sells a card with a crease and doesn't mention it, the card is not as described. Major defects should always be described no matter if the card is in a holder or not. If the crease wasn't there in the sellers photo and is there now, then it must have been damaged during shipment. Either way, that is why you should always pay with a credit card as they will stand behind you if EBay and Paypal won't.

[silvor]

As a buyer, not my experience at all. When a seller specifies "Seller does not accept returns", it means that unless the item is grossly mis-described OR is the wrong item altogether, your return is not likely going to be accepted by the seller or approved by ebay. In most cases, sellers specifies "Seller does not accept returns" for a reason, and ebay will support them in most cases.

Sure, the buyer in this case can try to find a reason that this card does not match the sellers description ("1968 topps rookie of nolan ryan. Graded PSA 6" )and maybe get ebay to approve the return if the seller does not, but with a graded card like this a return approved by ebay is not likely.

In this case, the information provided by the seller in the listing concerning the card and his return policy make it hard to argue a "not as described" claim with ebay...ebay will likely view this as buyer's remorse, especially if the seller calls and speaks to a human at ebay.

Recently, I received several grossly overstated raw lots of cards and had to make multiple phone calls to a live human at ebay as well as provide a series of images supporting my claim that the seller overstated the condition of what they sold to me. Eventually, ebay approved the returns, but my returns were for grossly mis-described items, not an item that there is a question about if the item was mis-described in it's listing by the seller or not.

Perhaps you have had much easier experiences returning items to sellers with "Seller does not accept returns" stated in their listing, but this is not my experience. I obviously pay more attention to this detail when buying.

However, it absolutely does not hurt to try.

I bought a T206 PSA 4 that looked centered in the photos. He didn't say it was centered. I requested a return from the seller, he said "no, you got a PSA 4 and I delivered on that."

I opened a case with ebay and they ruled in my favor.

Maybe I'm lucky. :o

[Mountaineer1999]

Thanks for all the input. The crease was there when mailed I'm sure. No way this crease was created during shipping. I can hold the card different ways and the crease disappears and it is easy to hide in pictures.

I have contacted the seller and he said no refund as it is a PSA 6.

[hcv123]

Thanks for all the input. The crease was there when mailed I'm sure. No way this crease was created during shipping. I can hold the card different ways and the crease disappears and it is easy to hide in pictures.

I have contacted the seller and he said no refund as it is a PSA 6.

It is a bit ambiguous at best from someone with no vested interest. As others suggested I would next pursue it with Ebay, then Paypal, then PSA (presuming a card with a crease does not fall under their PSA 6 definition). I also understand that many sellers don't accept returns on graded cards - It just doesn't seem right that you get stuck with this one.

[pokerplyr80]

Remember you have 3 options fo file not as described claims. Ebay, paypal, and your credit card company. I have never had to go past the first two in a similar situation.

[AGuinness]

I'm in the middle of dealing with a seller who initially wasn't going to ship the item because it didn't reach the price they wanted. I posted it here and in a later note to the seller, I explained how I was discussing the issue on a collecting board and that the seller should have noticed a big increase in views on the item (and when it was relisted). Then I noted how the negative feedback and bad rep would be far worse than missing out on $40 (we'll see how successful this was tomorrow, when the card - or an empty package -arrives). Perhaps your seller might respond to this kind of motivation, as he/she doesn't have a heck of a lot of feedback...

[rats60]

Thanks for all the input. The crease was there when mailed I'm sure. No way this crease was created during shipping. I can hold the card different ways and the crease disappears and it is easy to hide in pictures.

I have contacted the seller and he said no refund as it is a PSA 6.

I would leave negative feedback and file with Ebay. Buyers need to be aware of the seller's deceptive sales practices. Follow up with Paypal and your credit card company if necessary to get your money back. Don't get stuck with a creased card because the seller hid the fact that it was creased from you.

[Mountaineer1999]

Thanks again for all the advice guys. I was wondering would PSA grade it a 6 if the defect was in the card stock even before printing? Looking closer it appears to me to be slightly raised/ pressed. I guess I'm trying to figure out how it got a 6 in the first place, is it possible they actually missed seeing it, that is hard to fathom.

[KCRfan1]

There is no way I would have bid on this card if I could have seen the crease. I will contact seller but I am not optimistic.

You would not have seen the crease because it isn't in the image posted by the seller.....

I would be shocked if the seller accepted a return. It's PWCC, buyer beware.

[bnorth]

You would not have seen the crease because it isn't in the image posted by the seller.....

I would be shocked if the seller accepted a return. It's PWCC, buyer beware.

I am all for hating on PWCC and the complete BS Betsy has posted on here but this was NOT a PWCC listing.

A PWCC listing pops up but you need to click on the "view original item" link to see the real listing.:)

[swarmee]

Looks like it would grade a 2.5 currently IMO with that crease/heavy surface wrinkle.

[Mountaineer1999]

Remember you have 3 options fo file not as described claims. Ebay, paypal, and your credit card company. I have never had to go past the first two in a similar situation.

I have notified the seller I will pursue a refund through EBAY, PAYPAL and/or credit card if we cannot come to an agreement. More to follow...

[silvor]

I have notified the seller I will pursue a refund through EBAY, PAYPAL and/or credit card if we cannot come to an agreement. More to follow...

I wouldn't have done that. I'd have just filed a claim with ebay.

Maybe I'm reading into this, but what "agreement" is there to be had? Either you keep the card or he takes it back. You're not just trying to get this for less are you?

[bobbyw8469]

I wouldn't have done that. I'd have just filed a claim with ebay.

Maybe I'm reading into this, but what "agreement" is there to be had? Either you keep the card or he takes it back. You're not just trying to get this for less are you?

Either send the card back, or take it up with Ebay under their "grade guarantee".

[KCRfan1]

I am all for hating on PWCC and the complete BS Betsy has posted on here but this was NOT a PWCC listing.

A PWCC listing pops up but you need to click on the "view original item" link to see the real listing.:)

Correct Ben, and my mistake.

I will stand by my assessment that the crease is not present in the image. When I enlarge the image of the back of the card, I do not see the crease.

I'm not sure that means anything though, as my eyesight seems to be failing me by misidentifying the seller.

[hcv123]

Contact ebay first, then PayPal, then credit card, then PSA (it appears a PSA 4) is where the word "crease" is first mentioned. I might consider taking it up with them. I am not as much as others here for blaming the seller - a relevant question is did the seller know the crease was there. At worst the seller hid the crease in the photo - which is not okay. Most people as you did also rely on a PSA 6 to have certain qualities - a crease NOT being one of them. Most sellers (myself included) do not accept returns on graded cards. All of that said and with the grading guidelines from the PSA website below - I first and foremost see this as PSA responsibility for misgrading the card. Perhaps someone here with experience contacting PSA for this sort of thing could chime in.


From PSA website:
EX-MT 6
Excellent-Mint
A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

VG-EX 4
Very Good-Excellent
A PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

[rats60]

Contact ebay first, then PayPal, then credit card, then PSA (it appears a PSA 4) is where the word "crease" is first mentioned. I might consider taking it up with them. I am not as much as others here for blaming the seller - a relevant question is did the seller know the crease was there. At worst the seller hid the crease in the photo - which is not okay. Most people as you did also rely on a PSA 6 to have certain qualities - a crease NOT being one of them. Most sellers (myself included) do not accept returns on graded cards. All of that said and with the grading guidelines from the PSA website below - I first and foremost see this as PSA responsibility for misgrading the card. Perhaps someone here with experience contacting PSA for this sort of thing could chime in.


From PSA website:
EX-MT 6
Excellent-Mint
A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

VG-EX 4
Very Good-Excellent
A PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

The crease was most likely not there when PSA graded the card. That is a pretty big thing to miss. The most reasonable explanation is the crease was "spooned" out by the submitter and reappeared after it was slabbed. The seller is now trying to stick the OP with a damaged card.

[Exhibitman]

I also have a PSA 6 with a light hairline crease (lighter than the OP’s card). I missed the wrinkle. Subbed it myself so I know it isn’t tampered. If the card is screaming but for the wrinkle PSA will grade it a six.

[AGuinness]

The crease was most likely not there when PSA graded the card. That is a pretty big thing to miss. The most reasonable explanation is the crease was "spooned" out by the submitter and reappeared after it was slabbed. The seller is now trying to stick the OP with a damaged card.

What does a person do when they "spoon" a card? New term for me...

[Rose4HOF]

I gave in and tried spooning the wife....ugh...she still has wrinkles.

[rats60]

What does a person do when they "spoon" a card? New term for me...

Wet the surface of the card and use a spoon to press the crease out of the card.

[hcv123]

I gave in and tried spooning the wife....ugh...she still has wrinkles.

:D:eek::D:D

[AGuinness]

Wet the surface of the card and use a spoon to press the crease out of the card.



Thanks. Sounds crazy to me.


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[Mountaineer1999]

Seller refused refund so I have opened it up with EBay. His defense in his response to my request was photos were provided and description characterized as PSA 6 so nothing else was needed as he didn't see the crease.

[swarmee]

You are talking with the seller way too much. And you should really take it up with PSA under their grade guarantee, or else this will continue to happen.

[steve B]

You are talking with the seller way too much. And you should really take it up with PSA under their grade guarantee, or else this will continue to happen.

That doesn't entirely make sense to me.

PSA makes a mistake - Ok, it happens.
Seller doesn't notice a crease- Ok, that happens too.
Buyer has to do the legwork and deal with PSA to make it right - What?


To me it seems like the seller should take it back and do the legwork with PSA. The buyer shouldn't be stuck with the nuisance created by PSA and the seller.

[swarmee]

If he wants to return it as "Not as described" and have the seller deal with PSA, that's perfectly fine. More likely is the seller will try to resell the card as a PSA 6 to someone else and we'll get this same post next month.
However, talking to a seller about this and sending him your motivations are completely unnecessary. More likely, you've giving the seller ammunition to provide to eBay to refuse your return request.
Just file the Not as Described return and say "scan doesn't show heavy crease" and eBay will side with you.

[swarmee]

*duplicate post*

[Mountaineer1999]

If he wants to return it as "Not as described" and have the seller deal with PSA, that's perfectly fine. More likely is the seller will try to resell the card as a PSA 6 to someone else and we'll get this same post next month.
However, talking to a seller about this and sending him your motivations are completely unnecessary. More likely, you've giving the seller ammunition to provide to eBay to refuse your return request.
Just file the Not as Described return and say "scan doesn't show heavy crease" and eBay will side with you.

You are right. I probably gave him to much of a chance but I was trying to get the card returned. When that failed I filed the 'Not as Described ' with Ebay and his answer to EBay is in my previous post.
Now , per Ebay I try and negotiate (already tried) and contact them about the opened case on the 20th if issue not resolved.

I'm working thru this the best I can using feedback here as a guide. I probably need a little lawyer sitting on my shoulder telling me what to do.

[jchcollins]

If the card is screaming but for the wrinkle PSA will grade it a six.

Agreed. Sometimes they get cards that don't fall within the garden-variety descriptions of their grades. I've had PSA 5's that look like at least 8's and it's because there are light creases or wrinkles, even on the front. Sometimes it took me a couple of minutes and a high powered light to find, but they were there. I think this is a professional grader's worst nighmare - what if the card is super minty looking but has just one or two weirdo flaws...

[jchcollins]

I think it's at least a possibility that the grader was not considering that to be a crease, but an original flaw in the card stock. I've seen this before, particularly on the back of '57 Topps cards - where there appears to be an extremely light "dent" type line in the card. This if I recall was before I had a lot of graded cards, but whatever it was clearly was not a crease. I remember wondering how they would grade.

So no, any PSA-6 should not have a true crease, but I think you may have gotten screwed on a technicality. If it really bothers you and you don't get anywhere with eBay or Paypal (I would bet that you do) then see if PSA will "pay out under the terms of their grading guarantee..." as I've heard Mr. Hall say before. If nothing else it is questionable. It's a shame because that is a nice card (and one I would totally go after, with nice eye appeal but for a hidden flaw...although I would want more of a PSA-4 type price...)

Good luck.

[Exhibitman]

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/hockey/websize/1960%20Parkhurst%20Richard%20PSA%206.jpg

There is a tiny paper wrinkle above one shoulder. I missed it when i had the card raw in hand, I guess. Should this be a 4 or 5? I think not.

[jchcollins]

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/hockey/websize/1960%20Parkhurst%20Richard%20PSA%206.jpg
Should this be a 4 or 5? I think not.

You have a very valid point, but this is why all grading no matter how detailed will always be subjective. You can have technical grading going into eye appeal as a guide, but eye appeal / extent of scruitny is always going to be subjective and will vary from person to person.

Personally, I would agree with you - no way that card should be less than a 6. But there are folks out there who will argue that no card should ever get a break on a technical flaw - even if only visible under magnification. Which collector is correct?

[savedfrommyspokes]

You are right. I probably gave him to much of a chance but I was trying to get the card returned. When that failed I filed the 'Not as Described ' with Ebay and his answer to EBay is in my previous post.
Now , per Ebay I try and negotiate (already tried) and contact them about the opened case on the 20th if issue not resolved.

I'm working thru this the best I can using feedback here as a guide. I probably need a little lawyer sitting on my shoulder telling me what to do.

Any updates on this?

[Mountaineer1999]

I think it's at least a possibility that the grader was not considering that to be a crease, but an original flaw in the card stock. I've seen this before, particularly on the back of '57 Topps cards - where there appears to be an extremely light "dent" type line in the card. This if I recall was before I had a lot of graded cards, but whatever it was clearly was not a crease. I remember wondering how they would grade.

So no, any PSA-6 should not have a true crease, but I think you may have gotten screwed on a technicality. If it really bothers you and you don't get anywhere with eBay or Paypal (I would bet that you do) then see if PSA will "pay out under the terms of their grading guarantee..." as I've heard Mr. Hall say before. If nothing else it is questionable. It's a shame because that is a nice card (and one I would totally go after, with nice eye appeal but for a hidden flaw...although I would want more of a PSA-4 type price...)

Good luck.

I think this is right. I believe the flaw was in the original card stock. I just wish it was a little less noticable.

It is still under EBAY review for those interested.

[savedfrommyspokes]

It is still under EBAY review for those interested.

That appears to be a positive sign for you....hopefully it will work out for you.

[56Horsehide]

The crease is just to the left of the 1 in 1968.. gonna try to upload a snapshot

Is it possible the ebay scan of the reverse is a different card? It not only does not show the crease, it does not show the "black" spots in front of the "R" in Rookie.

[Mountaineer1999]

Is it possible the ebay scan of the reverse is a different card? It not only does not show the crease, it does not show the "black

" spots in front of the "R" in Rookie.

It's the same card.

[Mountaineer1999]

Update:
EBay sided with me on this claim and the card was put back in the mail today using EBays shipping label. The way I read it, I will be credited when package indicates delivered.

[AGuinness]

Great news. Glad it worked out for you.


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