Donald Trump opinion

[theshleps]

My 7 month old grandson, Isaac, sent out his first autograph request and this just came 3 months later. I haven't seen it in person yet but my son who is a collector says it doesn't appear to be preprinted on the picture or letter. What do you think? Ghost signed? Auto pen? Real? Let me know your opinion please. No political comments please
323567

[Steve D]

The signatures are different.

If I were to guess, I'd say the letter is autopenned, and the photo is probably authentically signed. The straightness of the lines in the letter signature just looks to "perfect" to me.

Steve

[Steve D]

In fact, here's a match to your letter, that I just found at http://www.stephenkoschal.com/news.html.

http://www.stephenkoschal.com/Trump-Autopen-3.jpg

http://www.stephenkoschal.com/Trump-Autopen-3.jpg

Steve

Edited to add image.

[theshleps]

thanks Steve= great find on the letter. that would be great if picture is real.

[jimjim]

They both look like autopen. The picture looks like the same temple as the letter but compressed into a smaller size.

[Mr. Zipper]

The likelihood of getting an authentic signature from a sitting president is extremely low. Of course anything is possible, but I suspect the photograph is either an Autopen or a printed signature. Can’t make any sort of definitive determination based upon this low resolution photo.

[vintagewhitesox]

This is most likely autopenned.

I worked in the White House in the late 90s, and virtually all of the correspondence from the public was autopenned.
Very cool piece nonetheless.

[Steve D]

I did a bit more looking, and I now think the signature on your photo is a match with this autopen, also at the link I posted above:

http://www.stephenkoschal.com/trump-autopen-1.jpg

Steve

[theshleps]

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines? I had Joe Montana and Elway autopens that were 100% similar but these aren't 100%. What do you think

[shelly]

Your Republicans?
Thought you where in europe? Can we get together to see your stuff ?
last question. When are you back to Hawaii/

[sago]

Ready for the ban hammer, but cannot pass on the low hanging fruit. IMO, he is the worst President ever, and has made a mockery of women's rights, civil rights, the Constitution, and everything this country ideally stands for. Can't wait for the midterms.

Been nice mostly lurking.

[thenavarro]

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines? I had Joe Montana and Elway autopens that were 100% similar but these aren't 100%. What do you think

Old school autopens showed some variations as the matrices that guided the pen would wear down with use. Plus, if the user moves the paper slightly or the paper moves slightly, there will be small variations. Also, different writing implements can cause different thicknesses, and other slight variations.

[Bestdj777]

With the large amount of mail some people get, is it possible there would be multiple autopen machines for each person? I'm assuming it's a manual feed process and multiple people would be working on replies.

[Mr. Zipper]

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines?

Autopens can vary slightly based on armature vibration, the item slipping as it is being fed through, the template wearing, etc. It's a myth that "autopens have to be a 100% exact match."

The signatures below are the same Autopen patterns, likely signed within minutes of each other. Note the differences... the G of Gene, R of Ron, E of Evans, etc.

[theshleps]

those are really big differences. makes it very hard to discern when something is an autopen

[Mr. Zipper]

those are really big differences. makes it very hard to discern when something is an autopen

This is kind of an extreme example, but it illustrates the point well. I can't tell you how many times I've told someone their item was an Autopen, and they will argue it's not an Autopen based on a tiny variance from a published pattern. :rolleyes:

[Leon]

Ready for the ban hammer, but cannot pass on the low hanging fruit. IMO, he is the worst President ever, and has made a mockery of women's rights, civil rights, the Constitution, and everything this country ideally stands for. Can't wait for the midterms.

Been nice mostly lurking.

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....

[SetBuilder]

Definitely an autopen. I sent a TTM request to Bill Gates when I was a kid and he sent me back a glossy signed photo and a signed letter on Microsoft letterhead. I discovered both were autopens years later. I'm sure Trump's staff handles all TTM requests as a courtesy to his fans.

Also, this signature is probably a stylized version of his real signature, made to look nice. They took all the elements of his full signature and created an archetypal version for the autopen machine. Think of Arnold Palmer's signature on his golf courses, Ronald Reagan's signature on the cover of his autobiography, etc. His real signature would be much sloppier and differ a bit more from known examples. His campaign trail signature was basically a line of zig zags.

[SetBuilder]

I just noticed. Look at the date.

July 16, 2018. He was in Helsinki meeting with Putin.

Couldn't possibly have signed that letter.

[theshleps]

sounds like we have autopens only. the photo wasnt dated and he was home the 17th but that is being overly optomistic

[w7imel]

I sent Mr Trump auto requests in mid 90"s and got these back. what do you guys think?

[Mr. Zipper]

I believe that is secretary.

[theshleps]

these were in person maybe 2007
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323743

[sycks22]

Most sitting Presidents don't sign as mentioned above. I've written foundations of previous Presidents and most will sign their books through the mail, but nothing outside of that. I'd love to have a baseball from most of them.

[slidekellyslide]

How could anyone tell if his signature is legit. There does not seem to be any consistency in the number of peaks in his first and last name.

[Forever Young]

Seismometer

[Steve D]

Seismometer


I've always likened Trump's signature, to a city skyline. He did make his money building skyscrapers.

Here's another signature (autopen) that looks like a seismograph reading (it's astronaut Jeffrey Hoffman):

http://www.spacedirectory.org.uk/i/Jeffrey_Hoffman_Autopen_3.jpg

Steve

[Mr. Zipper]

How could anyone tell if his signature is legit. There does not seem to be any consistency in the number of peaks in his first and last name.

It is a challenge. I've been studying it for a while and it took some time before I felt like I was getting a handle on it. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I can sort it out most of the time.

Don't count peaks and valleys. It's not reliable.

Real examples have the sharp, jagged appearance seen in the in-person cards above. Trump is also very consistent in angle and slant.

There are a few secretaries in play. The secretaries tend to be slightly softer in the angles. In the through the mail index cards above, note the rounded bottom of the D and the softer curves along the baseline. Also, the secretary doesn't tower the D, J and T as high above the other letters.

His signature evolved significantly from the 80s to now. I focus on full name signatures and won't waste time with the abbreviated campaign trail signatures. In my view, those cannot be reliably authenticated in many cases.

[Runscott]

Most sitting Presidents don't sign as mentioned above. I've written foundations of previous Presidents and most will sign their books through the mail, but nothing outside of that. I'd love to have a baseball from most of them.

I was watching the President-signed baseballs in the recent Hunt auction but couldn't touch any of the ones I was interested in.

A lot of collectors like Ike!

[SetBuilder]

Trump likes to write in all capital letters, so when viewing the zig-zags as capital letters, his signature can be quite legible at times. But there only seems to be a structure to the zig-zags when he's trying to be neat.

Here is one of his nicer examples. I think it's from the guestbook at the Holocaust museum.

As you can see, his first and last name is readable.

Sometimes though, he just draws zig-zagging lines with no rhyme or reason which don't correspond to letters at all. Some can go on for a while in a long line before he ends it with the final letter P in his last name.

[1treasuretrove]

I just purchased a large signed book and photo collection. The collection was from a doctor in NYC who attended charity dinners for years and there are as many signed programs and playbills as books included. The collection is less sports and more politics/celebrity related. Ironically, I was surprised to find a few Trump items mixed in with some of the less valuable celebrities - I guess the guy forgot about them...it was a nice surprise.

Just had to share since I saw this thread...

[2dueces]

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....

Obviously the misinformed Sago doesn't live in Texas.

[David Atkatz]

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....A bit harsh for a first "offense," wouldn't you say, Leon?

[Leon]

A bit harsh for a first "offense," wouldn't you say, Leon?

no...
Banishment isn't always permanent. But to flagrantly say you know you are going to be banned for doing something that will get you banned, and then doing it anyway, well, I would say he got exactly what he wanted and knew he was going to get. I wish they were all this black and white. Unfortunately they aren't. Hope that clarifies my thought on it?

[pokerplyr80]

no...
Banishment isn't always permanent. But to flagrantly say you know you are going to be banned for doing something that will get you banned, and then doing it anyway, well, I would say he got exactly what he wanted and knew he was going to get. I wish they were all this black and white. Unfortunately they aren't. Hope that clarifies my thought on it?

Hard to argue with that. He got the banishment he knew he deserved.

[RichardSimon]

Since I do not want to be banished I will keep my opinions about Trump to myself, FB and my circle of family and friends :).

But Leon, I do belong to a photography forum which has a section called The Attic. You can post anything in there that you want to including politics, religion, sex, drugs and rock n roll, etc. Whoever wants to read those posts can and if you do not want to read about those subjects you just avoid it.

[Runscott]

I like the fact that this is one of the few forums that does NOT provide such opportunities to increase my blood pressure.

[Leon]

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

Since I do not want to be banished I will keep my opinions about Trump to myself, FB and my circle of family and friends :).

But Leon, I do belong to a photography forum which has a section called The Attic. You can post anything in there that you want to including politics, religion, sex, drugs and rock n roll, etc. Whoever wants to read those posts can and if you do not want to read about those subjects you just avoid it.

[mr2686]

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

...and many of us here thank you for that Leon. This is one of the few places I can get away from all the Political BS.

[drcy]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

[Big Six]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics and religion if and when one wants.



Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.



Amen!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JustinD]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

Agreed.

My mother always told me to never discuss politics or religion in public as everyone already has an opinion you will never change and it is as fruitful as banging your head against a wall and hoping it will start to feel good.

I once made a slip years ago, not doing it again. Thanks to Leon for keeping it this way and eliminating the building of ill-will against another forum member simply because they disagreed in the voting booth.

[Huysmans]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

Here here!

[parker1b2]

i agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, i'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

+1000

[theshleps]

thanks. I started the post and specificaaly said No political comments please.

[thenavarro]

I've got 15 or so Trumps and they've been very difficult to sell, but all of the sudden over the past couple of weeks I've sold 2 and had a few other inquiries.

Good to see that turning around finally.

If you are interested in any feel free to click the link in my sig line and ferret around on my page.

[SetBuilder]

Politics is now a sport. Turn on all the nightly political shows and they look like ESPN Sportscenter. Tickers, roundtable discussions, analysis...pretty soon they'll bring out the telestrator and start drawing on the screen when a politician is giving a speech.

[Gary Dunaier]

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

That being the case, perhaps you should change the name of this thread to "Donald Trump autograph opinion." "Donald Trump opinion," by itself, sounds like it's going to be an opinion about Donald Trump.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

I doubt if anyone gets as feverish as myself when it comes to politics!!!

I, for one, am very happy that I can get away from it here.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I made the mistake of assuming a fellow dealer was simpatico with my political viewpoint. While we're still friendly, my mistake definitely strained our relationship. Lesson learned.

[Leon]

I think people should be able to figure it out and if not then we can help .



ĹThat being the case, perhaps you should change the name of this thread to "Donald Trump autograph opinion." "Donald Trump opinion," by itself, sounds like it's going to be an opinion about Donald Trump.

[thetruthisoutthere]

That being the case, perhaps you should change the name of this thread to "Donald Trump autograph opinion." "Donald Trump opinion," by itself, sounds like it's going to be an opinion about Donald Trump.

This is an "Autograph Forum."

[Jim65]

Its truly sad that in today's world, people with differing opinions can't even have a calm discussion anymore.

[David Atkatz]

Some "opinions" aren't amenable to discussion, Jim. Calm or otherwise.
For example. "Are Nazis bad?"
Want to argue the "no" side?

[Runscott]

It's Leon's right to not allow certain topics.

[David Atkatz]

It's Leon's right to not allow certain topics.Yes it is.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Its truly sad that in today's world, people with differing opinions can't even have a calm discussion anymore.

There is nothing more uncommon than common sense, unless it's common courtesy. There is very little civility left in our civil discourse.

[RichardSimon]

It's Leon's right to not allow certain topics.

It certainly is.
I only mentioned that a separate section in another forum I participate in had a section where discourse on any subject was available.
If people don't want to read opinions on controversial subjects they just avoid the separate section.

[Runscott]

It certainly is.
I only mentioned that a separate section in another forum I participate in had a section where discourse on any subject was available.
If people don't want to read opinions on controversial subjects they just avoid the separate section.

Weird thing happened there. On my phone I typed the message you quoted, intending to elaborate, then decided it was too difficult to type on the phone and my elaboration was not important, so I attempted to cancel. Oddly, it posted. I must have screwed up something.

But I'll go ahead and elaborate now. I used to participate heavily in the 'Anything Goes' section of another hobby forum. I made few friends and a lot of enemies. I eventually had to abandon the entire forum. Years later I went back, but now only visit the classifieds and rarely the main forum. The problem is that when I visit the main forum I meet idiots and then I'm tempted to see just how stupid they are by visiting the 'Anything Goes' section.

I really don't want to find out how stupid the members here might be, or reveal how stupid I am, which is what internet discussions of politics and religion tend to do. So thanks Leon.

[commishbob]

I hope there is never a section for religion/politics here. I've quit visiting both a golf and a college sports (school specific) message board because the animosity that developed in the 'anything goes' subforums spilled over to the other sections to one extent or another. More importantly to me...I come here via the 'new posts' search and I'd hate to be faced with having to sort through that nonsense every time. As it is now, I know that most any thread I choose to click will have something of interest, something I can learn from or something that blows me away. I don't ever even look to see what the forum is. I don't want that to change.

[Lordstan]

1) The OP should not have to put the word "autograph" in his title as it's an autograph forum.

2) I have no sympathy for the person banned. He knew it was against the rules, even stating that he would get banned, and did it anyway. Actions have consequences. He should have to live with his.

3) Leon can have whatever rules he wishes as it's his board.

4) Personally, I am glad we don't have a politics or religion subforum. Like others have said, knowing how people think, outside of the collecting area can often ruin the interactions we have within this specific area. Considering how much malice is currently out there, i prefer not to have any extra spill over.

5) The real tragedy is the fact that people don't seem to be able to discuss things calmly anymore, like Jim said. Sure, it's easy to point out the extremes like using Hitler or the Nazi's, in general, but the reality is that even far far less malicious things cannot be discussed anymore.

For some reason, it seems that emotion has melded with logic and reason to the point that attempting to logically discuss differing views becomes incredibly hard. It seems that every disagreement is taken as a personal attack. Once someone perceives it to be personal, they respond in kind and then the whole conversation falls apart. Politics and religion seem to be the two worst subjects, but it even happens talking about sports stuff. I know for a fact that some people will not post opinions about autographs because they fear that their opinions will come under attack instead of debate. Often times, my responses are wordy(like this one) because I really try to take the time to make my responses as unemotional and neutral as possible. I want to make my point without anyone taking my words as an attack or insult.

I hope that one day we can return to a time when people could just agree to disagree without venom. Where me having an opinion that is different than yours does not mean that I think you're stupid for having yours. Where we can have respect for each other and respect for the value of free and open discourse even for things we disagree with. For without that free and open discourse, we will slowly revert back to the dark ages when only those in power controlled what people are allowed to think.

[soapbox off]

Mike, Sorry for the ramble. If I knew anything about Trump's sig I would help you, but I do not. Best of luck with them
Mark

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Mark,

I was going to post a rant about what an ass you are and how stupid your post is but I was afraid nobody would get the humor...

[Lordstan]

Mark,

I was going to post a rant about what an ass you are and how stupid your post is but I was afraid nobody would get the humor...

Shame. That would have been pretty funny.

[Runscott]

I hope that one day we can return to a time when people could just agree to disagree without venom. Where me having an opinion that is different than yours does not mean that I think you're stupid for having yours. Where we can have respect for each other and respect for the value of free and open discourse even for things we disagree with. For without that free and open discourse, we will slowly revert back to the dark ages when only those in power controlled what people are allowed to think.

[soapbox off]

Mike, Sorry for the ramble. If I knew anything about Trump's sig I would help you, but I do not. Best of luck with them
Mark

I think it's just taking a really long time for internet discourse to evolve to where it somewhat resembles real life discussions. We've seen a lot of positive change over the last twenty years as moderators have learned techniques for keeping their forum discussions civil, and as people have gotten over the fun of flaming others, creating straw men, etc - basically, bad behavior techniques that you couldn't get away with face-to-face.

We're not there yet and probably won't ever be, but lots of slow improvement over the years.

[drcy]

With the great "Us and Them" divide, I'm reminded of the story:

During the Cold War 1960s, a group of Midwestern American citizens went on a trip to the Soviet Union. After returning, they were asked by the press for their impressions. They said their biggest surprise was to learn that the Russians citizens were "just normal people, like us."

Most political arguments are stupid and embarrassing to watch, which is why I completely skip them, and few, even in person, know my politics. Reasonable, reasoned debates with intelligent people of other political viewpoints are welcome with me. I like to hear different takes and reasonings-- and I know there are different legitimate ways to look at issues and problems, often based on different but legitimate priorities. However, I have an allergy to strawman arguments, cognitive biases and fallacies, zealotry, schoolyard namecalling, predetermined conclusions looking for evidence, etc-- and, yes, they come equally from both sides.

I was raised that the first person to call the other a name lost the debate, because, in a debate, you resort to name calling when you can't think of a legitimate counter-argument.

[Stampsfan]

Extremely well said. Have the maturity to enjoy a reasoned debate or discussion, and be mature enough to actually listen to a differing opinion. You may learn something, and keep your friends.

[RedsFan1941]

Since I do not want to be banished I will keep my opinions about Trump to myself, FB and my circle of family and friends :).

But Leon, I do belong to a photography forum which has a section called The Attic. You can post anything in there that you want to including politics, religion, sex, drugs and rock n roll, etc. Whoever wants to read those posts can and if you do not want to read about those subjects you just avoid it.

that's great that you have a place to post about politics so you don't need to do it here

[calvindog]

This was signed in person by Trump and his wife. Their signatures vary.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5694/20418150918_ac5614cdaa_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/599/20597118472_a3109b9df9_z.jpg

And here's Ivanka, also signed in front of me:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4271/34960444730_c0452c9418_z.jpg