Incredible eBay find that never materialized (newly discovered info on 6/26!!!)

[sterlingfox]

This happened a little while ago, and I never planned to post about it here, but after being encouraged by a fellow board member, I've decided to go ahead and share my story.

About a month ago, I spotted a dream card of mine on eBay for a price that I couldn't believe. A 1907 Dietsche postcard Cobb Batting PSA 2.5 for $1200. What luck, I thought to myself, as I purchased and paid for it via a Buy-It-Now listing. About 20 minutes later, I even got a shipping notice and a tracking number! I was excited beyond belief!

It was only 10 minutes later that reality struck and the seller cancelled the sale. I asked the seller why my order was cancelled, and the reply was that their kids jumped on and damaged both the PSA case, as well as the card itself in the process.

Of course I didn't believe a word of it, and had some choice words for the seller. Needless to say, I left negative feedback and just decided to move on, chalking it up to bad luck.

In my opinion, what happened was that someone contacted the seller immediately after I made the purchase and offered considerably more. After all, the card is probably worth north of $3000. Maybe even $4000. No matter - it's the seller's job to research and price the item accordingly.

This is why I'd like for everyone here to know that the seller, maxcollector69, is very dishonest. I do hope they are not a member of Net54. I'm sure the dishonest buyer will also not let themselves be known.

This also goes to show that outing an eBay listing that recently ended is a very bad idea. There are lots of greedy a-holes out there that will try their best to snatch that great deal away from you. As in my case, they sometimes succeed.

Link to the original listing, which sold on 5/12/18
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253618997568

6/26/18 UPDATE - the card was relisted on eBay by showpiecessports for $5995. Linked below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123214423640

[bobbyw8469]

Tough break on the card. I'll have to take your word that it's worth that much, because I'm looking on VCP and I don't see it being worth $4,000+.

[Sean]

This same thing happened a few years ago with a T206 Lenox and an a__hole seller on eBay. The seller had a store in Texas, I think it was called Battersbox.

I'm sorry to hear that you lost out on your card. I hate it when a third party jumps in and messes up a deal.

[sterlingfox]

Tough break on the card. I'll have to take your word that it's worth that much, because I'm looking on VCP and I don't see it being worth $4,000+.

A very recent REA sale of an SGC 20 with heavy creasing went for $3300.

[bobbyw8469]

A very recent REA sale of an SGC 20 with heavy creasing went for $3300.

And PWCC had a SGC 40 sale for $2,500 recently. The prices are all over the place on the card. But yes, someone shouldn't have messed with your auction.

[sterlingfox]

And PWCC had a SGC 40 sale for $2,500 recently. The prices are all over the place on the card. But yes, someone shouldn't have messed with your auction.

Agreed, but I do think that the market has shifted a bit on this card in the 3 short months between those 2 comps.

It seems to be taking a similar road as the '25 Exhibits Gehrig - becoming more accepted in the hobby as a rookie card (along with the fielding pose).

[vansaad]

A very recent REA sale of an SGC 20 with heavy creasing went for $3300.

Did the crease look like it had been caused by kids jumping on it?

[sterlingfox]

Did the crease look like it had been caused by kids jumping on it?

They are 2 completely different cards. The REA sale happened before this card was offered for sale.

[Republicaninmass]

even worse when you find it was a friend (former) and N54 member (current) who contacted the seller

[BLongley]

A PSA Authentic sold in May REA's auction for $4200. I just paid $2k for an SGC 10... At any rate, that is not cool.... I'm sorry the seller did that, he screwed up, but that should be his loss and not yours. I won't be buying anything from him, so thank you for letting me know.

[ALR-bishop]

Did the crease look like it had been caused by kids jumping on it?

:)

[brianp-beme]

Did the crease look like it had been caused by kids jumping on it?

Under no circumstances should anyone ever store graded cards on top of trampolines. However, raw is okay.

Brian

[sterlingfox]

even worse when you find it was a friend (former) and N54 member (current) who contacted the seller

I'm sorry to hear that you went through something similar, especially since it was a (former) friend of yours. If you don't mind, I'd like to know who this N54 member is via PM.

[chalupacollects]

Bad seller doesn't seem to be selling anything right now...

[hcv123]

The worst at a Robert Morris show in Pittsburgh - I was a dealer - a guy walked up with a hell of a collection - mostly 1920's-1940's - Ruth's, Gerhig's, a few key autographs, postcards, etc. While I was negotiating a deal with the guy, a dealer set up across from me - Tony (I believe from a company named Superior sports - older guy back then - short, Skinny, black hair - very into trophies and memorabilia) walks over to my table and says to the guy "don't make a deal with him (me) until you talk to me". It was as close as I've ever come to jumping across my table and hitting someone. He ended up stealing the deal from me. Felt like hitting him the rest of the show - certainly shared w few choice words. Gets my blood boiling just remembering it. As it happened there was a small bit of Karma in the room and when Tony was packing up -he dropped and broke one of his trophies - couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

Sorry this happened to you op.

[orly57]

A good rule of thumb is never buy from a guy who sneaks a 69 in their eBay handle.

A PSA 4 sold for $5,760 on Heritage in February.

[Ronnie73]

Similar thing happened to me. I was told the next day that the card sold on their website minutes before I made the purchase on ebay and paid right away. I still hold a bit of a grudge with the seller because I haven't come across another card since. That card was a T205 Collins Yellow Elephant.
http://www.comicplace.com/net54/yellowele.jpg

[Chris Counts]

I've been on both sides of this one, and you just can't put a price on integrity. I've left money on the table before because I've previously agreed to sell something for less, and a bigger offer came in. I once had a Net54 seller yank a deal out from under me under similar circumstances, and I will never deal with that seller again. There are just too many good sellers out there.

[Republicaninmass]

Deans cards has done it at least once to me as well. If so.eone pays he stupid price he wonders why. I wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire, and debated legal action. He sold th e card for quite a bit more, therfore damages could have been measured

[vintagehofrookies]

sorry to hear that happened to you but is that card really a $3k card??? It seems like only a couple years ago I bought a PSA 4 off ebay for UNDER $1K

[vintagehofrookies]

A good rule of thumb is never buy from a guy who sneaks a 69 in their eBay handle.

A PSA 4 sold for $5,760 on Heritage in February.

thats ridiculous!

[BeanTown]

Its a new game for Cobb postcards including Dietsche.

[Fballguy]

Not nearly on par with the OPs experience....but just a recent "funny excuse" story. Last week I won an early 70's Pro Bowl pennant that I didn't need...but bidding was at $0.99 in the closing seconds so I said what the heck. I won the thing for $1.25.

A couple days later...tragedy struck. I get a message from the seller stating that just as he was packaging my pennant for shipment, his mother dropped a glass of water shattering it and spraying my pennant in the process. He was sure I would no longer want it in "that condition" (i.e....wet) and apologized for the inconvenience. I said no...that's fine. I still want it. Haven't received it yet.

[bobbyw8469]

Not nearly on par with the OPs experience....but just a recent "funny excuse" story. Last week I won an early 70's Pro Bowl pennant that I didn't need...but bidding was at $0.99 in the closing seconds so I said what the heck. I won the thing for $1.25.

A couple days later...tragedy struck. I get a message from the seller stating that just as he was packaging my pennant for shipment, his mother dropped a glass of water shattering it and spraying my pennant in the process. He was sure I would no longer want it in "that condition" (i.e....wet) and apologized for the inconvenience. I said no...that's fine. I still want it. Haven't received it yet.

LOL. Thanks for the chuckle.

[sterlingfox]

Not nearly on par with the OPs experience....but just a recent "funny excuse" story. Last week I won an early 70's Pro Bowl pennant that I didn't need...but bidding was at $0.99 in the closing seconds so I said what the heck. I won the thing for $1.25.

A couple days later...tragedy struck. I get a message from the seller stating that just as he was packaging my pennant for shipment, his mother dropped a glass of water shattering it and spraying my pennant in the process. He was sure I would no longer want it in "that condition" (i.e....wet) and apologized for the inconvenience. I said no...that's fine. I still want it. Haven't received it yet.

Definitely an excuse to not sell an item that sold for an amount lower than the seller expected.

If a seller is expecting a certain amount, why not just list it as a Buy-It-Now and avoid these types of shenanigans? :confused:

Then again, I bought a BIN and the seller pulled the same crap...

[Orioles1954]

My cat actually did eat one of my cards (a 1952 Topps Feller) that was on ebay. Being that it happened with 6 hours left I only had an unbelievable story that made me look like a flake.

[Ronnie73]

My cat actually did eat one of my cards (a 1952 Topps Feller) that was on ebay. Being that it happened with 6 hours left I only had an unbelievable story that made me look like a flake.

I had a cat years ago that somehow knew what the valuable cards were and if I didn't play with the cat when he wanted to play, I would end up finding teeth marks on those cards. He was kinda like a little brother.

[brianp-beme]

Not nearly on par with the OPs experience....but just a recent "funny excuse" story. Last week I won an early 70's Pro Bowl pennant that I didn't need...but bidding was at $0.99 in the closing seconds so I said what the heck. I won the thing for $1.25.

A couple days later...tragedy struck. I get a message from the seller stating that just as he was packaging my pennant for shipment, his mother dropped a glass of water shattering it and spraying my pennant in the process. He was sure I would no longer want it in "that condition" (i.e....wet) and apologized for the inconvenience. I said no...that's fine. I still want it. Haven't received it yet.

After reading your various posts about issues with receiving pennants I have officially banned pennants and all their felt-like friends from my collection...they just aren't worth the hassle.

Brian (living a cardboard pure life for decades)

[conor912]

This is one of the many reasons I never get even a little bit excited about a purchase until it's in my hands. Easy come, easy go.

[Republicaninmass]

This is one of the many reasons I never get even a little bit excited about a purchase until it's in my hands. Easy come, easy go.

Unfortunately true

[Fballguy]

After reading your various posts about issues with receiving pennants I have officially banned pennants and all their felt-like friends from my collection...they just aren't worth the hassle.

Brian (living a cardboard pure life for decades)

Yeah...I've had more than my fair share of interesting experiences. But I've had great ones too. I think the size and shape of pennants leads to a lot of issues. People who don't sell them regularly, don't know how to ship them. And there's also no reference material so they don't know what to expect when they sell them. The good definitely outweighs the bad....but the bad is more fun to talk about. ;)

[Leon]

I had a cat years ago that somehow knew what the valuable cards were and if I didn't play with the cat when he wanted to play, I would end up finding teeth marks on those cards. He was kinda like a little brother.

Teething cats and baseball cards are not a good combo. One time I found our Beagle (*RIP) with a Schapira Big Show HOF'er in her mouth. It was in an ultra pro holder with teeth marks but escaped injury itself. That was a close call.

As far as ebay finds, I have had several sales canceled due to board members spouting off about them here, before the cards were shipped. IT sucks.

[BLongley]

Guess what??? It seems the sale that never materialized has made itself back on eBay.... different seller, but same holder and it doesn't seem damaged at all. Current asking price is now a bit over $5k....


https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F12 3214423640

[Buythatcard]

Similar things happen to eBay sellers. I had a buyer who won a high priced card from me. Less than an hour after he won the card, he told me that he no longer wanted it because he found it cheaper somewhere else.

[bobbyw8469]

Similar things happen to eBay sellers. I had a buyer who won a high priced card from me. Less than an hour after he won the card, he told me that he no longer wanted it because he found it cheaper somewhere else.

Happens all the time with me....block and move on.

[BLongley]

Happens all the time with me....block and move on.

No the case on this one was that the OP won the card at a great price, paid and received shipping confirm. Then he suddenly receives an email from the seller ( maxcollector69) saying that the card case and card itself was damaged by his kids and canceled the sale.... this was obviously a lie, he had in fact sold the card for half of what was worth made up the lie, canceled the trade, and obviously sold it for a higher price to the new seller (showpiecesports) who must have contacted him to say he sold it too low and that he would pay more and is now attempting to sell the exact same card in the exact same case, no damage from the kids.... for $5995 (the OP had done buy it now for $1200)....lots of low morals here with these two sellers... maxcollector69 in particular....

[sterlingfox]

I have contacted showpiecessports, and they said they are not consigning this piece for anyone. That means they are almost certainly the buyer.

Does anyone know if showpiecessports is on Net54?

Here a link to the new auction:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123214423640

No the case on this one was that the OP won the card at a great price, paid and received shipping confirm. Then he suddenly receives an email from the seller ( maxcollector69) saying that the card case and card itself was damaged by his kids and canceled the sale.... this was obviously a lie, he had in fact sold the card for half of what was worth made up the lie, canceled the trade, and obviously sold it for a higher price to the new seller (showpiecesports) who must have contacted him to say he sold it too low and that he would pay more and is now attempting to sell the exact same card in the exact same case, no damage from the kids.... for $5995 (the OP had done buy it now for $1200)....lots of low morals here with these two sellers... maxcollector69 in particular....

[sterlingfox]

The new seller is now claiming that he got the card in a trade for an expensive autograph, yet he won't tell me who he got it from.

He also claims he knows nothing of cards or Dietsche PCs, yet he has hundreds of graded cards for sale in his eBay store.

I'm now even more certain that showpiecessports is the one who bought the card from maxcollector69.

[jimjim]

I won’t be buying from them, ever. Especially since everything is waaaay overpriced. Lol You should let them know that people are boycotting the store due to their actions. Did you message the original seller with the new auction number and ask about condition of the holder?! Wonder what story they are going to come up with.

[yanksfan09]

Is there any way to block sellers on ebay? So i dont see their listings?

[SMPEP]

Is there any way to block sellers on ebay? So i dont see their listings?

I just wrote the seller and requested that they block me from their future auctions. I don't wish to deal with people like this, and don't want to accidentally forget who they are and bid from them.

Oh, and if you're an ebay seller and find this acceptable behavior ... feel free to ban me from bidding on your auctions too. Thanks!

Cheers,
Patrick

[sterlingfox]

Yes, I've sent a message to maxcollector69 with a link to the new auction.

Still waiting to hear back from them, but I don't expect a reply, as they never responded to me again after they sent me the story about how the PSA holder got broken and how the card got damaged.

I've also let the new seller know that their actions in this ordeal won't go unnoticed.

I won’t be buying from them, ever. Especially since everything is waaaay overpriced. Lol You should let them know that people are boycotting the store due to their actions. Did you message the original seller with the new auction number and ask about condition of the holder?! Wonder what story they are going to come up with.

[SMPEP]

I just wrote the seller and requested that they block me from their future auctions. I don't wish to deal with people like this, and don't want to accidentally forget who they are and bid from them.

Oh, and if you're an ebay seller and find this acceptable behavior ... feel free to ban me from bidding on your auctions too. Thanks!

Cheers,
Patrick

Just a follow up ... I sent a very professional note jsaying that I read about his business practices on Net54 and wished to be banned from his future auctions.

His response: "Must be my lucky day" (Full and complete message)

VERY happy to not deal with someone like him in the future.

Cheers,
Patrick

[KMayUSA6060]

I think eBay would like to hear about this. They presumably lost guaranteed money buy a transaction on eBay being cancelled in favor of a transaction involving the same card off eBay.

[sterlingfox]

Funny you should mention this - I just got done reporting both of them to eBay over the phone for engaging in a transaction outside of eBay.

This is a direct violation of eBay rules.

I hope they both get banned!

I think eBay would like to hear about this. They presumably lost guaranteed money buy a transaction on eBay being cancelled in favor of a transaction involving the same card off eBay.

[the-illini]

Funny you should mention this - I just got done reporting both of them to eBay over the phone for engaging in a transaction outside of eBay.

This is a direct violation of eBay rules.

I hope they both get banned!

Unfortunately that will be a long shot, at best. Showpiecessports has 6500+ items for sale right now. Ebay isn't going to ban them for one transaction. All about their bottom line...

[BobC]

I think eBay would like to hear about this. They presumably lost guaranteed money buy a transaction on eBay being cancelled in favor of a transaction involving the same card off eBay.

And also, wouldn't you potentially have a legal recourse against the original seller as well? I'm not a lawyer but, I know there is the possibility of a suit being brought for specific performance. But that is typically only for real estate transactions because of the specific and unique nature of such sales. Still, and you could confirm this with Ebay, I believe transactions executed using their platform are considered the same as a binding contract. If so, it sure sounds like you had completed the sale and offered adequate compensation for the item being purchased, and then got lied to as to what happened. And if in fact the Cobb postcard now for sale on Ebay at almost four times what you would have paid for it is the same card in the same PSA holder, you pretty much have him by the you-know-whats! At this point you probably can't force him to complete the transaction as he now longer has the card. But, you could at least ask for damages, which I believe should at least be the additional profit he made on screwing you and selling to this other guy who cut in on your deal.

It obviously is not worth it to formally go to sue this guy and pay an attorney to try taking him to court but, it couldn't hurt to threaten him with exposing what he did to Ebay and and also threaten to sue him for the difference he cost you, plus all the court costs and your attorney fees to go after him. From what you've said and shown, you have this guy dead to rights and can fairly easily prove he's guilty as sin of cheating you. Worst case scenario, he tells you to go pound salt, and you walk away knowing he's a jerk and never do business with him again. Better case scenario, he gives/pays you something so you don't go after him or report him to Ebay and you maybe have some money to at least go buy something else for yourself.

[doug.goodman]

This is a direct violation of eBay rules.

I hope they both get banned!

Ha!

Ebay doesn't give a shit.

[sterlingfox]

I've already reported both parties to eBay, but I don't think it would be worth it for me to try and sue him for the difference between what I paid and what he sold it for.

He is also not responding to any of my messages, so I don't think a threat of a lawsuit will make any bit of difference to him.

My only hope from all of this is that maxcollector69 and showpiecessports both get exposed for what they did.

And also, wouldn't you potentially have a legal recourse against the original seller as well? I'm not a lawyer but, I know there is the possibility of a suit being brought for specific performance. But that is typically only for real estate transactions because of the specific and unique nature of such sales. Still, and you could confirm this with Ebay, I believe transactions executed using their platform are considered the same as a binding contract. If so, it sure sounds like you had completed the sale and offered adequate compensation for the item being purchased, and then got lied to as to what happened. And if in fact the Cobb postcard now for sale on Ebay at almost four times what you would have paid for it is the same card in the same PSA holder, you pretty much have him by the you-know-whats! At this point you probably can't force him to complete the transaction as he now longer has the card. But, you could at least ask for damages, which I believe should at least be the additional profit he made on screwing you and selling to this other guy who cut in on your deal.

It obviously is not worth it to formally go to sue this guy and pay an attorney to try taking him to court but, it couldn't hurt to threaten him with exposing what he did to Ebay and and also threaten to sue him for the difference he cost you, plus all the court costs and your attorney fees to go after him. From what you've said and shown, you have this guy dead to rights and can fairly easily prove he's guilty as sin of cheating you. Worst case scenario, he tells you to go pound salt, and you walk away knowing he's a jerk and never do business with him again. Better case scenario, he gives/pays you something so you don't go after him or report him to Ebay and you maybe have some money to at least go buy something else for yourself.

[sterlingfox]

While that might be true, I still feel it was worth my 10 minutes on the phone to report the incident and let eBay investigate, even if nothing comes of it.

Ha!

Ebay doesn't give a shit.

[bnorth]

I've already reported both parties to eBay, but I don't think it would be worth it for me to try and sue him for the difference between what I paid and what he sold it for.

He is also not responding to any of my messages, so I don't think a threat of a lawsuit will make any bit of difference to him.

My only hope from all of this is that both maxcollector69 and showpiecessports both get exposed for what they did.

They did but there are only a couple people that will care. For the rest as soon as one of the sellers list something on their want list they will bid on it. It has been proven so many times on this forum that stuff trumps everything I have pretty much stopped caring if others get ripped off.

[BobC]

I've already reported both parties to eBay, but I don't think it would be worth it for me to try and sue him for the difference between what I paid and what he sold it for.

He is also not responding to any of my messages, so I don't think a threat of a lawsuit will make any bit of difference to him.

My only hope from all of this is that both maxcollector69 and showpiecessports both get exposed for what they did.

You never know, happen to have a friend that is an attorney who would be willing to write a letter to the original seller? You've got this seller's address, send it certified and see what comes of it. He may still ignore you and you probably won't do anything going forward but, for a small expense for postage and a favor from an attorney you know, you can maybe get the satisfaction of giving him a few sleepless nights, or even the comforting thought that some of that money he screwed you out of went to an attorney he had to go see to check out the letter you sent him. You never know! Good luck, and I do feel for you that got screwed. Shouldn't have happened.

And if you don't have an attorney friend you can ask, there's enough attorneys on Net54. Maybe one of them would be willing to do this if for no other reason than to maybe give this guy enough of a scare so he never pulls that kind of stunt again on anyone else.

[sterlingfox]

I don't have his physical address, but I do have his (maxcollector69) full name and email address.

I'd happily provide this to anyone who is interested.

You never know, happen to have a friend that is an attorney who would be willing to write a letter to the original seller? You've got this seller's address, send it certified and see what comes of it. He may still ignore you and you probably won't do anything going forward but, for a small expense for postage and a favor from an attorney you know, you can maybe get the satisfaction of giving him a few sleepless nights, or even the comforting thought that some of that money he screwed you out of went to an attorney he had to go see to check out the letter you sent him. You never know! Good luck, and I do feel for you that got screwed. Shouldn't have happened.

And if you don't have an attorney friend you can ask, there's enough attorneys on Net54. Maybe one of them would be willing to do this if for no other reason than to maybe give this guy enough of a scare so he never pulls that kind of stunt again on anyone else.

[sterlingfox]

A fellow Net54 user has informed me that showpiecessports (Joe Dwek) is currently registered as one of the dealers at the upcoming National.

Booths 1413 and 1512, according to the dealer list.

I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone visiting his table(s) would let him know what they think of his business practices.

[commishbob]

...

[sterlingfox]

Fingers crossed!

[jfkheat]

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

[sterlingfox]

The current seller is hiding behind a story that a "client" of his traded the card to him for an autograph, but he won't reveal any info about his so-called "client".

Even if he's not the one who bought the card off of maxcollector69, he's covering for his client who did.

Not innocent in either scenario.

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

[BobC]

I don't have his physical address, but I do have his (maxcollector69) full name and email address.

I'd happily provide this to anyone who is interested.

Ebay should have his full name and address. Just contact them again and ask for it, and tell them exactly why. If they refuse, I'd think that then makes them complicit with the seller. Ask them to confirm then that this deal you thought was completed using their site was a legal, binding contract, and if so, how can they not assist you in getting in touch with the seller since he no longer will respond to your emails.

Or, see if if you can find someone who bought something from this guy and would have his address from when they mailed the item to them.

[bigfanNY]

Well first time I stepped into a thread like this. So first I am not a perfect hobby member in fact this week I forgot about a package and mailed an item 5 days after I said I would.
BUT I delt with showpiece sports last year and Joe is a GOOD GUY.
I am sorry An EBAY seller screwed you and I would bet Joe is sorry he screwed you but he did nothing wrong here. 100% seller fault. Really what would you want Joe to do sell you the card for less than he paid for it?
You cannot be sure he did anything wrong And yet you say you are almost 100% certin he did. That is not cool
Is it to much to ask you give him a break? For you and me this is a hobby but for someone who pays for multiple tables at national and has 6k listings this might be an important business and to jump up and down and say he is unethical and ask folks to "stop by his table and tell him so" .
I would not appreciate anyone stopping by my workplace disrupting my business would you?
You know who did you wrong for $15 you can sue him in a New Jersey small claims court. If you prevailed you might win some damages. But the scorched earth policy of anyone connected to this must pay and pay. Is neither fair nor just.
My real world experiance with Joe tells me that the opinion in your head is wrong about him.
Jonathan Sterling

[timn1]

H*ll of an attitude...

They did but there are only a couple people that will care. For the rest as soon as one of the sellers list something on their want list they will bid on it. It has been proven so many times on this forum that stuff trumps everything I have pretty much stopped caring if others get ripped off.

[sterlingfox]

Simply going by facts, Joe is currently in possession of the card and refuses to provide any info that could prove his innocence in this.

Based on what, exactly, should I be cutting him a break?

Well first time I stepped into a thread like this. So first I am not a perfect hobby member in fact this week I forgot about a package and mailed an item 5 days after I said I would.
BUT I delt with showpiece sports last year and Joe is a GOOD GUY.
I am sorry An EBAY seller screwed you and I would bet Joe is sorry he screwed you but he did nothing wrong here. 100% seller fault. Really what would you want Joe to do sell you the card for less than he paid for it?
You cannot be sure he did anything wrong And yet you say you are almost 100% certin he did. That is not cool
Is it to much to ask you give him a break? For you and me this is a hobby but for someone who pays for multiple tables at national and has 6k listings this might be an important business and to jump up and down and say he is unethical and ask folks to "stop by his table and tell him so" .
I would not appreciate anyone stopping by my workplace disrupting my business would you?
You know who did you wrong for $15 you can sue him in a New Jersey small claims court. If you prevailed you might win some damages. But the scorched earth policy of anyone connected to this must pay and pay. Is neither fair nor just.
My real world experiance with Joe tells me that the opinion in your head is wrong about him.
Jonathan Sterling

[bigfanNY]

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[asoriano]

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

this ^

[sterlingfox]

So all the evidence so far points to Joe as the buyer of the card, and I should just blindly trust his word that he's innocent?

The original seller is NOT the only person who wronged me here.

If Joe's story has any merit at all, he needs to provide info on who traded him the card. IT IS MY BUSINESS if he's the only person who can provide that info.

If I were in Joe's shoes, not only would I do everything I could to help out, including providing info on the client, I'd also never do business again with that client. Joe obviously values his client over his ethics. And that's going on a HUGE assumption that his story is even true.

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[BLongley]

Wait a second....have you read the post? The OP bought the card, paid for it, and then received shipping confirmation. Then about 15 minutes later received an email from the seller maxcollector69 thaT THE CARD AND CASE WAS DAMAGED BY HIS KIDS AND HE WAS CANCELING THE DEAL.... now here we are a few weeks later and suddenly our seller Joe, has THE EXACT CARD IN THE EXACT CASE WITH ZERO DAMAGE for sale on eBay.... he doesn't have to say how he acquired it but it's maxcollector69s card in the same case, ... I sent him a question asking him about the claimed damage to the card and case from the original seller and he did not respond at all.... all of his actions seem to be ones of someone with a guilty conscience (I would bet anyone that Joe told maxcollector69 he sold too cheap and he would pay him more, then did so off eBay, but was so stupid he listed it on eBay for all of us to see).... you say he's a good guy, so go ahead buy from him.... but I will never have interest in anything he sells.... he certainly can come on here and tell his side of the story, and I told him in my note to him about this Net54 post, but he is staying quiet...


Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[jfkheat]

I wouldn't tell anyone where I got the card from either for privacy reasons. Last year I sold a card to a member here. When he received the package the bubble mailer had been sliced open and the card was gone. A couple months ago the card showed as part of a set up at an auction house that lists their auctions here. I called the auction house asking for the same type of information that you are asking for. I was told that for privacy reasons they couldn't give me any info.
James

[Republicaninmass]

You can bet if any of my stolen cards show up, I'll try my damndest to find where they came from. Not that I'll have any luck

[timn1]

Sure, Maybe Joe is totally innocent, and piglets could also fly out of my behind. He didn’t even bother to sell it in a different venue. Pretty shameless if you ask me.

Wait a second....have you read the post? The OP bought the card, paid for it, and then received shipping confirmation. Then about 15 minutes later received an email from the seller maxcollector69 thaT THE CARD AND CASE WAS DAMAGED BY HIS KIDS AND HE WAS CANCELING THE DEAL.... now here we are a few weeks later and suddenly our seller Joe, has THE EXACT CARD IN THE EXACT CASE WITH ZERO DAMAGE for sale on eBay.... he doesn't have to say how he acquired it but it's maxcollector69s card in the same case, ... I sent him a question asking him about the claimed damage to the card and case from the original seller and he did not respond at all.... all of his actions seem to be ones of someone with a guilty conscience (I would bet anyone that Joe told maxcollector69 he sold too cheap and he would pay him more, then did so off eBay, but was so stupid he listed it on eBay for all of us to see).... you say he's a good guy, so go ahead buy from him.... but I will never have interest in anything he sells.... he certainly can come on here and tell his side of the story, and I told him in my note to him about this Net54 post, but he is staying quiet...

[timn1]

Sure he did, that’s what posting something on eBay is, an implied promise to sell something for a certain price (either the BIN price or the auction hammer price).
In this case the seller set the price himself and then reneged on the promise. Pretty simple stuff, I would say. Hard to spin it away.

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00..

[bigfanNY]

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[timn1]

Yes, I did misread your post, although why you bothered to say that Joe did not promise to sell the OP the card for $1200 is a mystery since no one ever claimed he did. But The original eBay seller did make that promise, and there is good reason to suspect that Joe interfered with that transaction. If he didn’t, then he can come on this board and explain his side of things. That would go much further in his defense than your flailing about is doing.



Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[sterlingfox]

So what you're saying is that Joe, or whoever the original buyer of the card is who offered more to maxcollector69, did nothing wrong? You even said yourself that's something you wouldn't do! Are you flipping serious!?!?

And Joe being the only other known owner of the card is plenty enough evidence to suspect him of being the buyer.

Where's the proof that Joe took the card in on trade? That's right. There's none!

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[BLongley]

Without a doubt maxcollector69 is guilty for not following through on his transaction, and the reason he didn't we clearly know is a lie because the case isn't damaged. Now here we are and showpiecessports has the card in his inventory for sale.

Nothing unethical or illegal about trading for it, or unethical or illegal if he bought it, and nothing illegal if he interfered with Dmitrys transaction (although eBay would be less than thrilled for loosing transaction fees and having shenanigans taking place through their company's business, but we know it happens all the time).... if he did that though that would be unethical.

I have seen many a reputation destroyed over the internet. There are topics like this that come up all the time and when whoevers reputation or character is being questioned they come on to the board and tell their side of the story, and if they did nothing wrong then everyone moves on.

I am surprised Joe has been so quiet, after all anyone can google search his eBay name and this stuff now appears, if it was my name and integrity being questioned I would certainly come online and tell my side of the story.

I can appreciate you sticking up for your friend, but you don't know the facts...maxcollector69 does and Joe may certainly have info to share if he so chooses.

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[Republicaninmass]

Ebay clearly states that when you agree to purchase a card from a seller, it is a binding agreement. Are we to say that is unilateral, and the binding agreement doesnt bind the (original) seller in this case?

What about stolen property? The (second) seller wouldn't even be reimbursed, he'd have to go after who he purchased it from. The authorities would just take the card into evidence.

There are enough attorneys on the board that we can just write off (and laugh at) most of the other posters. Those which are simply conjecture and speculation what the law is, how it reads, or what can hold up in court.

[SMPEP]

Brian - it's even worse than you say. Joe doesn't even need to google himself to see his name in this thread. He's been directly TOLD by at least two Board members that this thread exists. And his only response has been to date has been "must be my lucky day." He is well informed that this thread exists - he obviously just doesn't care to respond. I'll let folks draw their own conclusions on what that means.

Cheers,
Patrick

[steve B]

Nothing unethical or illegal about trading for it, or unethical or illegal if he bought it, and nothing illegal if he interfered with Dmitrys transaction (although eBay would be less than thrilled for loosing transaction fees and having shenanigans taking place through their company's business, but we know it happens all the time).... if he did that though that would be unethical.



Nothing illegal if he interfered with it?

This is of course an amateur opinion as I'm not a lawyer, but....

Ebay states in a couple places in their user agreement that a sale is a contract between buyer and seller. They used to have language like that every time I listed stuff, but it's been a while so they might not have that reminder for sellers anymore.

And from Wikipedia

"Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of torts, occurs when one person intentionally damages someone else's contractual or business relationships with a third party causing economic harm.[1] For example, someone could use blackmail to induce a contractor into breaking a contract or they could obstruct someone's ability to honor a contract with a client by deliberately refusing to deliver necessary goods.[2]

So I'd say interfering with a completed sale on Ebay is illegal.
That's not to say that it might be hard to prove, or more expensive to sue over than the item.

[BLongley]

Ok, maybe it is illegal, I don't know either, I was just responding to the other post...and stating that trading for cards in general is not illegal or unethical, which is what that poster was saying...that Joe or anyone can trade for things, what's wrong with that"....and I was then saying nothing, but if Joe had interfered with the transaction that it was at a minimum unethical. I am on the OPs side on this and question the whole thing. I was the one that found the card suddenly for sale again and notified Dmitry about its reappearance....



Nothing illegal if he interfered with it?

This is of course an amateur opinion as I'm not a lawyer, but....

Ebay states in a couple places in their user agreement that a sale is a contract between buyer and seller. They used to have language like that every time I listed stuff, but it's been a while so they might not have that reminder for sellers anymore.

And from Wikipedia

"Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of torts, occurs when one person intentionally damages someone else's contractual or business relationships with a third party causing economic harm.[1] For example, someone could use blackmail to induce a contractor into breaking a contract or they could obstruct someone's ability to honor a contract with a client by deliberately refusing to deliver necessary goods.[2]

So I'd say interfering with a completed sale on Ebay is illegal.
That's not to say that it might be hard to prove, or more expensive to sue over than the item.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card.

So if the card was 'stolen' then it would be ok for the new seller to give the info of who traded him the card. So now there are reasons that info should be disclosed.

Well the poster is basically claiming fraud because he was told the card/case was damaged which was the reason for the non sale and he is alleging there is nothing wrong with the card. So whether the card was 'stolen' 'fraud' some other bad deed, it would appear you really cant just say its none of his business to see how the new seller got the card...others can disagree but i dont think its so simple to say its none of his business

[steve B]

Ok, maybe it is illegal, I don't know either, I was just responding to the other post...and stating that trading for cards in general is not illegal or unethical, which is what that poster was saying...that Joe or anyone can trade for things, what's wrong with that"....and I was then saying nothing, but if Joe had interfered with the transaction that it was at a minimum unethical. I am on the OPs side on this and question the whole thing. I was the one that found the card suddenly for sale again and notified Dmitry about its reappearance....

Ok.

That wasn't meant as ripping you, just adding that yes, interfering is sometimes illegal.

[rdixon1208]

So what you're saying is that Joe, or whoever the original buyer of the card is who offered more to maxcollector69, did nothing wrong? You even said yourself that's something you wouldn't do! Are you flipping serious!?!?

And Joe being the only other known owner of the card is plenty enough evidence to suspect him of being the buyer.

Where's the proof that Joe took the card in on trade? That's right. There's none!

This is where I think you're wrong. I understanding you suspecting him of being the buyer, but you're actually accusing him of it and demanding that he provide proof when you don't actually have any hard data to support your claim. That card could have changed hands multiple times between maxcollector69 and the guy who has it for sale now.

Robert Dixon

[BLongley]

Sure it could have, but joe doesn't seem to want to chime in, hence the suspection.... we have seen maxcollector69 have it, cancel the sale due to his kids destroying the card, and a few weeks later now have seen it reappear in joes inventory after he traded an expensive autograph for it...and according to Dmitry he wouldn't even say who it was an autograph of (not who the trade was with)... just who the auto was...

And what other hard data can he get? It is his business because he had a binding contract of purchase with maxcollector69 and was canceled with a lie. The fact that Joe can clearly see it was canceled with a lie, he may want to help Dmitry understand what he knows of the transaction, but has chosen not to, which causes many suspicions....


This is where I think you're wrong. I understanding you suspecting him of being the buyer, but you're actually accusing him of it and demanding that he provide proof when you don't actually have any hard data to support your claim. That card could have changed hands multiple times between maxcollector69 and the guy who has it for sale now.

Robert Dixon

[Marchillo]

I feel for the OP 100%. My great deals have been few and far between and thinking of not receiving one is devastating.

I think everyone agrees - the original seller with the false story is scum. I would never do business with them (if i actually remember them when coming across an item).

As for Joe - Not sure there is a right or wrong answer here but I think its dangerous to accuse someone as is being done here. I don't think Joe owes it to anyone to tell how he acquired the card, yet he told the OP that it was acquired by trade. I agree with Joe not giving up the name of the person he traded with. I honestly don't think he owes anyone anything at this point assuming this is the truth and the trade he mentions wasn't by him initiating a call on an item that already sold.

If Joe comes on here to defend himself and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, but will not reveal who I traded with" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, I will not reveal who i traded with but I can tell you its not from the seller of the original listing" - will that satisfy everyone?

I have no relationship with Joe and for all I know Joe could have done some shenanigans in this whole ordeal. But assuming he didn't I still don't think he owes it to anyone to prove his innocence.

Again I feel for the OP - I don't think he's overreacting and if I were in his shoes i might say the same things even though I think they are dangerous things to say. Maybe some more information will come to light. It is probably in Joe's best interest to come on here but if he offers the same response he offered to the OP I am not sure where it will get him.

[joed25]

This is Andrew Dwek. Joe Dwek is my brother and partner. Joe and I buy, sell and trade sports memorabilia and autographs.The accusation that we stole this card from Dmitry by offering the ebay seller more is simply false. We traded for the card having no knowledge of any sales or transactions on it. A client was interested in a high end item of our’s and asked if we would consider trading it to him for multiple items. After going back and forth on potential trade pieces over a few days we agreed on a package of multiple items coming our way in exchange for the one high end item in our store. One of the items we received was this card.

We rarely deal in vintage cards unless they're autographed. In all of our years of doing this, we have never once bought a vintage graded card unless it was included in a package that consisted mainly of autographs and memorabilia. We don't follow card auctions and sales and never have bid on card auctions or listings of any kind. We certainly would never make an offer to a seller after an ebay sale had completed. We wouldn't do so even if the item was right is in our wheelhouse and we’d be able to make a quick profit on it. We certainly wouldn't do it on a vintage card for which we have no real feel for and have no clients/buyers for. While we've been the victim of such practices countless times we would never engage in such business practices. We love what we do, feel blessed to be able to dedicate so much time to the hobby and believe there's enough good and legitimate business out there.

To prove I'm saying the truth I'm willing to show our conversations and communications with this trade client to a net54 board member. I would do so in person, either now in New Jersey or at the national. I will show the proof of the trade to a neutral person, not someone who was affected by the cancelled ebay sale or feels they incurred a loss. The client’s identity will remain anonymous.

After we listed the card for sale in our ebay store, Dmitry messaged us about the cancelled ebay sale. We immediately offered to talk to him on the phone to explain what had happened. Attached are the ebay messages:

[joed25]

I see the photos are not clear so here is the ebay conversation transcribed:

OP: Did you purchase this from maxcollector69?

Me: No.

OP: Are you selling it as a consignment for someone else then? I'm asking because I purchased
and paid for this card from eBay user maxcollector69 about a month ago. The order was then
cancelled and refunded before it shipped. Whoever bought it stole it from me by offering the
seller more, and I need to know who did that to me. If not you, then I need to know who. If you
can't provide that info then I'll assume it was you.

Me: No I am not.

OP: Then it was you who stole this card from me. Thanks for clearing that up.
I will be making sure your eBay business suffers as much as possible.
It will be the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life by the time I'm finished with you.
maxcollector69 is already feeling the effects of the part that he played in this.
Expect to also hear from MANY others who have already heard my story, and know exactly
what you did.

Me: This is the fourth email I got from someone saying he bought this card. I know almost
nothing about cards. I am an autograph dealer. I only get cards in trades. Someone traded
me this card for an expensive autograph. To think that I would follow an eBay sale of this
card and message the seller after to sell it to me is a little crazy as I don’t deal in cards
and I wouldn’t know what a dietshe postcard is if it hit me in the head. Hope this clears
things up.

OP: Again, unless I get specific details on who you got this card from, I will assume it was you who
stole it from me.
Others are messaging you on MY behalf.
Check eBay sales within the last 90 days and you'll see this card sold for $1200 as a BUY IT
NOW. I was the buyer.
The seller cancelled on me after I paid. Someone offered maxcollector69 more to cause the
cancellation.
Unless you tell me who you got this card from, I'll have to assume it was YOU!
And selling it for $6K tells me you know A LOT about this card.
DO NOT attempt to lie to me. IT WILL NOT WORK!

Me: I told you exactly what happened with this card. Obviously I can research a cards value.
But I am not a Card dealer and it is ludicrous to think that I would follow an eBay Auction
and message him after on an obscure card that I don’t deal in. I would never do such a
thing. Also I don’t appreciate being threatened.

OP: I'm asking you one last time, who did you get this card from? I won't ask again...

And I don't appreciate being lied to and stolen from. Even if it wasn't you, if you don't tell me
who you got this card from, then you're covering for the perp, which makes you just as
responsible! And I still think it was you!

Me: I am available to speak after 11 am est. Feel free to
call.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

Me: After work is fine. I have 4 little kids as well. Thanks

OP: Who should I ask for when calling?
I'm still going to need real proof.
Telling me something like you made a trade with a stranger at a show won't cut it for me.

Me: Joe.
It was not at a show. It was from someone who buys from me

OP: That won't help either of us, unfortunately, and eliminates the need for a phone call. I would hope
that you don't engage in large transactions like that without first getting some personal info from your
trading partner, but it doesn't seem like you did that. It's a situation like this that you could have
avoided. That is, if any of what you're saying is true. As far as I can see, you can't prove anything,
but I can prove you're in possession of the Cobb. That's all I'll need.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll need a full name, email address, and if you have it,
eBay user ID and home address of your trading partner.

Me: Of course I have the persons name but I’m not going to give the name of one of my
clients. Call me. You will see I’m honest and I would never do such a horrible thing. I
definitely feel your pain. All the best, Joe

OP: Hi Joe, I really want to believe you, but this isn't looking good for you without any proof or
willingness to cooperate.
I'm sure you're already getting messages from people who will vow to never do business with
you again - you'll be getting much more of this over the coming days, weeks and months. I
have a lot of influence on the card collecting community, and have no issues reaching out to
the memorabilia side as well.
I will need that name and email address to let you off the hook.
If you have any sympathy at all about this situation, you'll do the right thing and make sure that
the right person is exposed for what they did.

Me: Let’s talk when you are
free.

OP: I appreciate your willingness to reach out and speak to me, but nothing short of your client's
information will help either of us.
Covering for your client makes you just as guilty, unfortunately.

Me: With all due respect I think if you were in my shoes you would not want to give a clients
information. I really think it will be a benefit to talk. Please call. Thanks. Joe

OP: I would happily provide their information if I was given proof that they were potentially
engaging in such devious behavior. I'd also never do business with them again, but it's
obvious that you value their business more than your own ethics.
It's possible there was another exchange before it reached your client, but that will need to be
researched.
As it stands, the ball is in your court, and you're still covering for your client. That's all I need to
know.

Me: Again I am willing to talk. I don’t want to fight with you. I would never do anything like
some people are suggesting. I cannot give a clients name. If you change your mind and
are willing to talk I am always available. I wish you the best. Joe

OP: You've taken your stance and I've taken mine. I just hope you can accept the consequences of
your actions.

[joed25]

Some more photos.

[joed25]

Here are some more photos

[BLongley]

Andrew, Thank you for coming on here and explaining the details. This certainly helps me believe your innocence.

[joed25]

Patrick,
I was the one who replied to you "must be my lucky day".
I was fed up with all the messages on this card and wrote back quickly to you out of frustration. Please accept my apologies. - Andrew

[Marchillo]

To me, I don't know how much more Joe and Andrew have to say to defend themselves. This is more than I would have expected. I know there will be some sort of criticism. If I were Joe and Andrew then I would share the information they offered with Leon. No one better in my opinion.

As for the OP - I think these messages come off really aggressive and harsh. Not the approach I would have taken. Also not sure why a phone call wasn't done after the repeated offer. I do not blame Joe and Andrew for not giving away that information. For all we know the trade partner could have been the second person to touch the card after the listing was pulled and could have been innocent in all of this too. Then Joe and Andrew lose a major contributor to their business and this person could go around blasting them as well hurting other frequent clients. Just a no win situation....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

[daves_resale_shop]

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

Mic drop

[mechanicalman]

I have been in the OPs shoes before. The almost exact situation happened to me. IT SUCKS. I genuinely feel bad for the OP - as bad as you can possibly feel about a guy who didn't get a Dietsche Cobb for a fraction than market value.

But at this point, you've got to give this up and move on. You will not be getting that card for $1200. You have no recourse. You were screwed by the seller, and he no longer owns it.

It seems like your only goal at this point is to besmirch others' reputations based on little to no evidence. You've actually done it in two threads (one of which you've walked back.) Will that make you feel better? Maybe. But how is wielding your hobby influence to hurt someone's business (your words) a good use of time and energy? You are too busy to take a phone call, but you find the time to run a smear campaign based on assumptions?

Dude, move on. I'm sorry this happened to you, but your reaction at this point is not a good look.

And also, how have we gotten this far without knowing your FULL NAME?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I do agree that the original poster is pretty aggressive. I think it was way to early to talk about consequences and making business difficult etc.

Also for someone that hated that fake excuse about the card being damaged as the reason it wasn't shipped...to say


OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.


C'mon, all of this effort on and on...is taking many minutes/hours...to just take a minute or two on the phone and saying he doesnt have time really looks bad to me. The new seller guy keeps asking him to call him and drawing a line in the sand by the OP ( no identity no call) is a game.

However, this isn't medical records or an undercover operation......giving an email or an ebay ID in a legit case of a stolen card or other type of crooked behavior (if can show proof of the email saying the card was damaged) isnt the end of the world. The new seller could of at least asked the person he did the trade with about this information and see what the person says and share that with the OP....

A little give on both sides would of made sense.

[joed25]

To me, I don't know how much more Joe and Andrew have to say to defend themselves. This is more than I would have expected. I know there will be some sort of criticism. If I were Joe and Andrew then I would share the information they offered with Leon. No one better in my opinion.

As for the OP - I think these messages come off really aggressive and harsh. Not the approach I would have taken. Also not sure why a phone call wasn't done after the repeated offer. I do not blame Joe and Andrew for not giving away that information. For all we know the trade partner could have been the second person to touch the card after the listing was pulled and could have been innocent in all of this too. Then Joe and Andrew lose a major contributor to their business and this person could go around blasting them as well hurting other frequent clients. Just a no win situation....

Thank you for your kind words.

[tschock]

And also, how have we gotten this far without knowing your FULL NAME?

This.

[sterlingfox]

Here's the proof that maxcollector69 lied to me.

Was I too aggressive with my approach to Joe? Yes, absolutely. But I'm also outraged at this whole situation, and really just wanted some answers. I didn't feel like a phone call would have solved or proved anything, as Joe made it clear that he wasn't going to reveal any info about the trading partner. And just like Andrew's insensitive initial response to Patrick, my correspondence with Joe was fueled by anger and frustration. All I had to go on at that point was that the card was in Joe's inventory and relisted on eBay at a 500% markup over what I had paid.

I don't expect to ever get this card for $1200. I actually moved on from that long ago, but when the card showed back up on eBay a few days ago, it got me angry all over again.

Once whoever Joe decides to relay the information to about the trading partner reaches out to me and confirms that it's legit, I'll happily apologize to Joe.

I'd much prefer getting the trading partner's contact info so I can at least try to find out who actually bought the card from maxcollector69, but that looks like it won't happen at this point.

My FULL NAME is Dmitry Drubitsky

[rhettyeakley]

Let. It. Go.

We have all this type of stuff happen to us. I bought a card off eBay from a seller, paid, waited and a few days later I got a refund. No message from the seller ever and a week later someone on the forum was showing their “new card” thay had found & proceeds to show the card I had already paid for. S*** happens. That guy isn’t my favorite Net54er but eventually I forgave the guy and have even dealt with them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Here's the proof that maxcollector69 lied to me.

Was I too aggressive with my approach to Joe? Yes, absolutely. But I'm also outraged at this whole situation, and really just wanted some answers. I didn't feel like a phone call would have solved or proved anything, as Joe made it clear that he wasn't going to reveal any info about the trading partner. And just like Andrew's insensitive initial response to Patrick, my correspondence with Joe was fueled by anger and frustration. All I had to go on at that point was that the card was in Joe's inventory and relisted on eBay at a 500% markup over what I had paid.

I don't expect to ever get this card for $1200. I actually moved on from that long ago, but when the card showed back up on eBay a few days ago, it got me angry all over again.

Once whoever Joe decides to relay the information to about the trading partner reaches out to me and confirms that it's legit, I'll happily apologize to Joe.

I'd much prefer getting the trading partner's contact info so I can at least try to find out who actually bought the card from maxcollector69, but that looks like it won't happen at this point.

My FULL NAME is Dmitry Drubitsky

i would of said, ill still buy the card for the same price...please show me the card..no reason to refund

[Bpm0014]

^^^^^^^ this

[Leon]

This.

This- Dmitry Drub.itsky - sterlingFox
.

[sterlingfox]

maxcollector69 never responded to me again.

i would of said, ill still buy the card for the same price...please show me the card..no reason to refund

[whitehse]

Here's the proof that maxcollector69 lied to me.

Was I too aggressive with my approach to Joe? Yes, absolutely. But I'm also outraged at this whole situation, and really just wanted some answers. I didn't feel like a phone call would have solved or proved anything, as Joe made it clear that he wasn't going to reveal any info about the trading partner. And just like Andrew's insensitive initial response to Patrick, my correspondence with Joe was fueled by anger and frustration. All I had to go on at that point was that the card was in Joe's inventory and relisted on eBay at a 500% markup over what I had paid.

I don't expect to ever get this card for $1200. I actually moved on from that long ago, but when the card showed back up on eBay a few days ago, it got me angry all over again.

Once whoever Joe decides to relay the information to about the trading partner reaches out to me and confirms that it's legit, I'll happily apologize to Joe.

I'd much prefer getting the trading partner's contact info so I can at least try to find out who actually bought the card from maxcollector69, but that looks like it won't happen at this point.

My FULL NAME is Dmitry Drubitsky

At this point.....If I was Joe you would not get anything further from me after your repeated attempts to ruin my reputation among other things. Have a hissy fit all you want but it really is time to move on and let this one go.

Geez its just cards man. This is not life and death.

[RedsFan1941]

At this point.....If I was Joe you would not get anything further from me after your repeated attempts to ruin my reputation among other things. Have a hissy fit all you want but it really is time to move on and let this one go.

Geez its just cards man. This is not life and death.

well said

[ALR-bishop]

I wish I had a lot of influence on the card collecting community.

[JustinD]

I wish I had a lot of influence on the card collecting community.

I think have a ton.

It seems I can drop the value of a card simply by buying it. :cool:

[glchen]

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

+1

I'd move on. You win some, you lose some, that's how it goes. While looking through this thread, I didn't realize how much the value of this card has gone up. I consigned a beautiful SGC 5 of this card to Goodwin in 2011, and it sold for $1400 after BP: Link (http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=15324). :rolleyes:

[SMPEP]

Andrew - apology accepted and reciprocated.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Scott L.]

I see the photos are not clear so here is the ebay conversation transcribed:

OP: Did you purchase this from maxcollector69?

Me: No.

OP: Are you selling it as a consignment for someone else then? I'm asking because I purchased
and paid for this card from eBay user maxcollector69 about a month ago. The order was then
cancelled and refunded before it shipped. Whoever bought it stole it from me by offering the
seller more, and I need to know who did that to me. If not you, then I need to know who. If you
can't provide that info then I'll assume it was you.

Me: No I am not.

OP: Then it was you who stole this card from me. Thanks for clearing that up.
I will be making sure your eBay business suffers as much as possible.
It will be the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life by the time I'm finished with you.
maxcollector69 is already feeling the effects of the part that he played in this.
Expect to also hear from MANY others who have already heard my story, and know exactly
what you did.

Me: This is the fourth email I got from someone saying he bought this card. I know almost
nothing about cards. I am an autograph dealer. I only get cards in trades. Someone traded
me this card for an expensive autograph. To think that I would follow an eBay sale of this
card and message the seller after to sell it to me is a little crazy as I don’t deal in cards
and I wouldn’t know what a dietshe postcard is if it hit me in the head. Hope this clears
things up.

OP: Again, unless I get specific details on who you got this card from, I will assume it was you who
stole it from me.
Others are messaging you on MY behalf.
Check eBay sales within the last 90 days and you'll see this card sold for $1200 as a BUY IT
NOW. I was the buyer.
The seller cancelled on me after I paid. Someone offered maxcollector69 more to cause the
cancellation.
Unless you tell me who you got this card from, I'll have to assume it was YOU!
And selling it for $6K tells me you know A LOT about this card.
DO NOT attempt to lie to me. IT WILL NOT WORK!

Me: I told you exactly what happened with this card. Obviously I can research a cards value.
But I am not a Card dealer and it is ludicrous to think that I would follow an eBay Auction
and message him after on an obscure card that I don’t deal in. I would never do such a
thing. Also I don’t appreciate being threatened.

OP: I'm asking you one last time, who did you get this card from? I won't ask again...

And I don't appreciate being lied to and stolen from. Even if it wasn't you, if you don't tell me
who you got this card from, then you're covering for the perp, which makes you just as
responsible! And I still think it was you!

Me: I am available to speak after 11 am est. Feel free to
call.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

Me: After work is fine. I have 4 little kids as well. Thanks

OP: Who should I ask for when calling?
I'm still going to need real proof.
Telling me something like you made a trade with a stranger at a show won't cut it for me.

Me: Joe.
It was not at a show. It was from someone who buys from me

OP: That won't help either of us, unfortunately, and eliminates the need for a phone call. I would hope
that you don't engage in large transactions like that without first getting some personal info from your
trading partner, but it doesn't seem like you did that. It's a situation like this that you could have
avoided. That is, if any of what you're saying is true. As far as I can see, you can't prove anything,
but I can prove you're in possession of the Cobb. That's all I'll need.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll need a full name, email address, and if you have it,
eBay user ID and home address of your trading partner.

Me: Of course I have the persons name but I’m not going to give the name of one of my
clients. Call me. You will see I’m honest and I would never do such a horrible thing. I
definitely feel your pain. All the best, Joe

OP: Hi Joe, I really want to believe you, but this isn't looking good for you without any proof or
willingness to cooperate.
I'm sure you're already getting messages from people who will vow to never do business with
you again - you'll be getting much more of this over the coming days, weeks and months. I
have a lot of influence on the card collecting community, and have no issues reaching out to
the memorabilia side as well.
I will need that name and email address to let you off the hook.
If you have any sympathy at all about this situation, you'll do the right thing and make sure that
the right person is exposed for what they did.

Me: Let’s talk when you are
free.

OP: I appreciate your willingness to reach out and speak to me, but nothing short of your client's
information will help either of us.
Covering for your client makes you just as guilty, unfortunately.

Me: With all due respect I think if you were in my shoes you would not want to give a clients
information. I really think it will be a benefit to talk. Please call. Thanks. Joe

OP: I would happily provide their information if I was given proof that they were potentially
engaging in such devious behavior. I'd also never do business with them again, but it's
obvious that you value their business more than your own ethics.
It's possible there was another exchange before it reached your client, but that will need to be
researched.
As it stands, the ball is in your court, and you're still covering for your client. That's all I need to
know.

Me: Again I am willing to talk. I don’t want to fight with you. I would never do anything like
some people are suggesting. I cannot give a clients name. If you change your mind and
are willing to talk I am always available. I wish you the best. Joe

OP: You've taken your stance and I've taken mine. I just hope you can accept the consequences of
your actions.

Joe you have the patience of a saint. I can’t imagine letting anyone speak to me like this for as long as you did. Over a baseball card. Kudos.

[asoriano]

nevermind.

[joed25]

Andrew - apology accepted and reciprocated.

Cheers,
Patrick

Thank you.

[Jason]

"I have a lot of influence on the card collecting community" best line of this whole thread:D

[1952boyntoncollector]

At this point.....If I was Joe you would not get anything further from me after your repeated attempts to ruin my reputation among other things. Have a hissy fit all you want but it really is time to move on and let this one go.

Geez its just cards man. This is not life and death.


A little tired of people saying 'its just cards' thats pretty unfair to say...its about someone being dishonest and about money.

lets see you lose $4000 on a deal and have people say....don't worry its just cards..

His deal involved a least a thousand or so....if its not a big deal...why dont one of you people who say 'its just cards' give him the thousand dollars..afterall its just cards and not over much...so should be easy to give it to him...

[Marchillo]

But the rest of that reply was 1000% spot on. The anger is directed at the wrong people. Andrew and Joe could have ignored the OP from the beginning. Instead they explained the situation and withheld the information they weren’t comfortable sharing. The OP went way overboard with them simply because the original scum seller didn’t engage him. I felt bad for the OP when this was first posted but feel much less sympathetic as this thread progressed. I don’t like the bullying tone the OP took so for someone to say “it’s just cards” isn’t the worst thing to say.

I’d also go on to say that I’d certainly do business with Andrew and Joe if the situation presented itself.

[Republicaninmass]

Posession is 9/10ths of the law. Until the card is in your possession, it isn't yours, unless legally a seller can be forced to complete the sale or be forced to make the buyer whole. The seller can always say it was a pricing error , card is lost, etc and not deliver. Bad business yes, but a 4k or higher loss is a price some people will lose their dignity, or what's left of it, for.

My situation

Sellers lists buy it now for 2500
Says he made a mistake and it was supposed to be an auction

Relists and sellers for 11,000


Now there are specific damages, but apparently Ebay is not enforceable

[glchen]

A little tired of people saying 'its just cards' thats pretty unfair to say...its about someone being dishonest and about money.

lets see you lose $4000 on a deal and have people say....don't worry its just cards..

His deal involved a least a thousand or so....if its not a big deal...why dont one of you people who say 'its just cards' give him the thousand dollars..afterall its just cards and not over much...so should be easy to give it to him...

It's a lot different if someone scams you $4000 when they send you an empty box with no card in the package or something similar versus you were about to buy a card $4000 below market price because the seller didn't know better and priced the card incorrectly.

[Leon]

Agree for the most part. Having been there (deal retracted) more than once on a several k deal, it sort of feels the same to me but for a fraction of the time :). Just because a "great" deal doesn't happen, doesn't mean you are really out money, out of your pocket. (again, it sort of feels that way but it's not....just check your wallet, money is still there). Receive an empty box and check your wallet, money is gone. Different.

It's a lot different if someone scams you $4000 when they send you an empty box with no card in the package or something similar versus you were about to buy a card $4000 below market price because the seller didn't know better and priced the card incorrectly.

[jfkheat]

So, has the OP issued an apology to Joe yet?

[Bigdaddy]

delete............

My momma always said, "If you can't say something nice...."

[Davidlisa]

I was thinking, what about ebay finds that did materialize, I'd like to hear some of those stories.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Agree for the most part. Having been there (deal retracted) more than once on a several k deal, it sort of feels the same to me but for a fraction of the time :). Just because a "great" deal doesn't happen, doesn't mean you are really out money, out of your pocket. (again, it sort of feels that way but it's not....just check your wallet, money is still there). Receive an empty box and check your wallet, money is gone. Different.

Some people make new deals based on completed prior deals so could be out the money. Ie. you bought a card, with expectation of making X profit then take a loan on something based on the gains you will use to pay the loan back. Yes, its an extreme example but just saying you can have less money in your wallet at the end of day in several other possible outcomes. Not so easy.

Still if buy a card and get an empty box, the seller can say 'its just cards' Its about getting ripped off and money (to varying degrees) but in any event, people have a right to vent anger over being ripped off and losing money and being told 'its just cards' is kinda lame to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

[QUOTE=glchen;1791196]It's a lot different if someone scams you $4000 when they send you an empty box with no card in the package or something similar versus you were about to buy a card $4000 below market price because the seller didn't know better and priced the card incorrectly.[/QUOTE}

Not sure it was $4000 in market price....what amount below 'market' price woud make it ok?

I know back in the housing boom in 2005 etc...people would 'buy' a house and during pending loan approval the house would go up $50k...so the seller would then try to break the contract....... tell the buyer thats not money out of his pocket when the seller finds a way to stiff them.

of course in the end..2008 or so...most people lost......just like what will happenn to the buyers of the 1952 Baritrome

[MikeGarcia]

I was thinking, what about ebay finds that did materialize, I'd like to hear some of those stories.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1936GREENBERG_NEW.JPG

about eight years ago this was in a ten-day auction and spent the whole ten days titled "Greemberg"....final price was a bit over $200 because of shipping from Canada....don't hate me...

..

[Leon]

Many times the more you say the less I understand. Sometimes I wonder about your logic. Here, I will make it simple for you.

Too good of a deal that didn't happen- Not good
Someone scamming you out of 4k- worse

I don't see anyone condoning not following through on a deal. I also don't see anyone else with your warped sense of logic.


Some people make new deals based on completed prior deals so could be out the money. Ie. you bought a card, with expectation of making X profit then take a loan on something based on the gains you will use to pay the loan back. Yes, its an extreme example but just saying you can have less money in your wallet at the end of day in several other possible outcomes. Not so easy.

Still if buy a card and get an empty box, the seller can say 'its just cards' Its about getting ripped off and money (to varying degrees) but in any event, people have a right to vent anger over being ripped off and losing money and being told 'its just cards' is kinda lame to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Many times the more you say the less I understand. Sometimes I wonder about your logic. Here, I will make it simple for you.

Too good of a deal that didn't happen- Not good
Someone scamming you out of 4k- worse

I don't see anyone condoning not following through on a deal. I also don't see anyone else with your warped sense of logic.

Basically there are different degrees of being ripped off..

When buy a card with Heritage or Mile High, is it your expectation if you get too good deal on an auction they will cancel the sale? Its not like the seller didnt know anything about cards.........

what if it wasnt too good of a deal (why is everyone always giving an extreme example) what if it was just a normal deal, or maybe the buyer thinks he may of gotten or $100 under market but really wanted that card

then he is told the card is torn, but is lied too, then sees it for sale somewhere else which proves the lie. Now he cant buy the card again except by paying $300 more etc....so now hes out the $300....you can be out money different ways is all im saying.....yeah you can come up with too good to be true examples..but there are many other deals that should be legit but the buyer is legit to expect to make a profit.... people do make profits in the hobby..though not many...

[pokerplyr80]

Joe you have the patience of a saint. I can’t imagine letting anyone speak to me like this for as long as you did. Over a baseball card. Kudos.

I agree. My response would have been quite different as well. The OP was way out of line. In threatening to ruin another man's business and reputation you have ruined yours in my opinion. Hopefully anyone who has seen this thread will think twice before doing business with you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The OP hasn't proved anything, but neither has Andrew/Joe (unless I missed it - I didn't read every response). If I were the OP, here's how I would handle it from here:

Dmitry, you have a confirmation email from PayPal that says you paid for the item. You also have a notification from eBay that says the item was shipped. I would take those two emails and file a police report in New Jersey saying that the card never arrived - must have been stolen. Let them know who is in possession of the card. Let the police do their own investigation. They'll determine where the card originated from real fast. If Andrew/Joe are right, you owe them an apology. If they are guilty of what you suspect them of, well then a lot of people owe you an apology. Again, that's just how I would handle it, you can do as you wish.

[Marchillo]

I don't think I'd owe the OP an apology even if Joe and Andrew are lying. Those eBay messages are insane and the explanation is perfectly logical and believable. Unless the OP had 100% certainty that what he suspects is correct, then he shouldn't talk to people that way. Even if he ends up by chance being justified that Andrew and Joe did in fact take part in wrongdoing. Like a recent poster said I would not deal with the OP after this thread even if he is right in the end.

The anger the OP expressed to Joe and Andrew should have been directed at the original seller. Except the original seller simply ignored the OP and the OP is apparently too busy to make a phone call to Joe never mind file a police report in Jersey?

But part of your post is correct - nothing has been proven or disproven. The only thing we have is the OP's story, Joe/Andrew's story, and a litany of eBay messages that make the OP look terrible.

[sterlingfox]

The OP hasn't proved anything, but neither has Andrew/Joe (unless I missed it - I didn't read every response). If I were the OP, here's how I would handle it from here:

Dmitry, you have a confirmation email from PayPal that says you paid for the item. I would take that email and file a police report in New Jersey saying that the card never arrived - must have been stolen. Let them know who is in possession of the card. Let the police do their own investigation. They'll determine where the card originated from real fast. If Andrew/Joe are right, you owe them an apology. If they are guilty of what you suspect them of, well then a lot of people owe you an apology. Again, that's just how I would handle it, you can do as you wish.

David,

Unfortunately, I also have an order cancellation and refund. It would be pretty silly of me to file a police report, especially if I were to claim that the card was stolen in transit, which I know it was not because it never shipped.

You've hit the nail on the head, though, with the fact that Andrew and Joe haven't proven yet that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69. All we have so far is their word - and they are under no obligation to prove anything to me or anyone else if they choose not to.

If Andrew or Joe decide that they'd like to prove that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69, then I absolutely owe them an apology.

Without proof, however, there is still some doubt. Nobody can possibly deny or refute that given they are the only other party that has been proven to be in possession of the card after maxcollector69 had it.

I'd like to apologize to everyone on the board, however, about how I went about pursuing this. I should not have made any threats or accusations without actual proof. I convinced myself that it was Joe simply because he was in possession of the card, and that was wrong of me.

[JustinD]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1936GREENBERG_NEW.JPG

about eight years ago this was in a ten-day auction and spent the whole ten days titled "Greemberg"....final price was a bit over $200 because of shipping from Canada....don't hate me...

..

I would have been sweating that till I opened the package. Nice deal.

In the younger days of Ebay (before the redirection to correct spellings) I had many good deals looking under Micky Mantle, Mickey Mantel, Hank Aron, Hank Arron, and tons of other misspellings. You just don't see them much anymore.

[slidekellyslide]

David,

Unfortunately, I also have an order cancellation and refund. It would be pretty silly of me to file a police report, especially if I were to claim that the card was stolen in transit, which I know it was not because it never shipped.

You've hit the nail on the head, though, with the fact that Andrew and Joe haven't proven yet that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69. All we have so far is their word - and they are under no obligation to prove anything to me or anyone else if they choose not to.

If Andrew or Joe decide that they'd like to prove that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69, then I absolutely owe them an apology.

Without proof, however, there is still some doubt. Nobody can possibly deny or refute that given they are the only other party that has been proven to be in possession of the card after maxcollector69 had it.

I'd like to apologize to everyone on the board, however, about how I went about pursuing this. I should not have made any threats or accusations without actual proof. I convinced myself that it was Joe simply because he was in possession of the card, and that was wrong of me.


I think it's pretty clear that Andrew and Joe don't troll ebay for prewar cards that sold too cheaply. They have 6500 listings with only one prewar baseball card (The Dietsche Cobb), they have zero sales of prewar baseball cards. And 99% of their listings are autographs. I have no doubt they took this card in from a client. I think you owe them an apology without condition. It truly sucks that someone interfered with what was rightfully your card and I feel sorry that happened to you. Maxcollector69 and possibly the anonymous client is to blame for that.

[bounce]

Some people make new deals based on completed prior deals so could be out the money. Ie. you bought a card, with expectation of making X profit then take a loan on something based on the gains you will use to pay the loan back.

nice try, but "expectation" does not equal "actual", and this "new deal" suggestion is just plain silly.

the only things anyone is "out" in this thread are opportunity, reputation and time.

OP didn't lose any money. He lost an opportunity to get the card, through no fault of his own. disappointing for sure, but the subsequent accusations were way over the line especially if he wouldn't pick up the phone to have the discussion.

if you collect long enough, some version of this is eventually going to happen to you. if you focus on it, you're killing the joy the joy of collecting for yourself.

[ls7plus]

A very recent REA sale of an SGC 20 with heavy creasing went for $3300.

I remember when I bought the batting Dietsche pose in PSA VgEx (graded that low only because of a light water mark on the back--the card looked every bit of ExMt+ on the front and otherwise!) for $1900 some years ago, and the tougher fielding pose in PSA 5 for $4,000 in 2011. How things have changed!

Happy collecting,

Larry

[ls7plus]

I had a cat years ago that somehow knew what the valuable cards were and if I didn't play with the cat when he wanted to play, I would end up finding teeth marks on those cards. He was kinda like a little brother.

I have four cats and sometimes have cards out as I'm watching a game. When one of the felines comes close to the latter, I gently pick him up and scold it, "Cats and cards don't mix!"

Good story,

Larry

[Roulette44]

Dmitry - you really DO owe an apology as you made several defamatory comments to them, spread rumors which can’t be proven, and were quite rude and obnoxious to them. What is particularly surprising is how well they handled the situation - showing you empathy, when another person in the same situation might have ended up filing suit against you.

Joe - I collect primarily cards (otherwise would add you to my watched sellers) but think you handled this situation extremely professionally

[leaflover]

So the "incredible Ebay find" didn't materialize and what could have been the "FLIP of the month" didn't happen. Too bad.

[jfkheat]

Dmitry - you really DO owe an apology as you made several defamatory comments to them, spread rumors which can’t be proven, and were quite rude and obnoxious to them. What is particularly surprising is how well they handled the situation - showing you empathy, when another person in the same situation might have ended up filing suit against you.

I agree 100%

[pokerplyr80]

So the "incredible Ebay find" didn't materialize and what could have been the "FLIP of the month" didn't happen. Too bad.

Yea it seems like I'm in the minority around here but I dont have a lot of sympathy in general for guys who are trying to steal a card and the transaction gets canceled. If you're buying a card for less than half of what it's worth there is a decent chance a seller may wake up and realize what he has one way or another. Stores and websites like Amazon will cancel an order due to an obvious pricing mistake or error. And so will many Ebay sellers. Deal with it and move on.

[hedgefund96]

I hope that does not apply to me, lol as my handle is hedgefund96

[ALR-bishop]

Do you have a lot of influence on the card collecting community ?

[egri]

Dmitry - you really DO owe an apology as you made several defamatory comments to them, spread rumors which can’t be proven, and were quite rude and obnoxious to them. What is particularly surprising is how well they handled the situation - showing you empathy, when another person in the same situation might have ended up filing suit against you.

I agree. Also, the OP keeps saying that Joe needs to prove his innocence (see post #62 for starters), but that is backwards. The burden of proof is on OP to show that Joe acted nefariously, and he hasn't done that. He has offered up conjectures and speculation about what happened, but nothing in the way of concrete proof, and after 140 posts on the topic, I am skeptical of any turning up. Lastly, and this may be my cynical side getting the best of me, but I think some perspective is needed here: if you have $1,200 to spend on a piece of cardboard that has a true value of $3000-4000, then your problems can't be all that bad.

[Leon]

I agree. Also, the OP keeps saying that Joe needs to prove his innocence (see post #62 for starters), but that is backwards. The burden of proof is on OP to show that Joe acted nefariously, and he hasn't done that. He has offered up conjectures and speculation about what happened, but nothing in the way of concrete proof, and after 140 posts on the topic, I am skeptical of any turning up. Lastly, and this may be my cynical side getting the best of me, but I think some perspective is needed here: if you have $1,200 to spend on a piece of cardboard that has a true value of $3000-4000, then your problems can't be all that bad.

When we were kids and didn't eat all of our food at dinner my dad would say, Do you know there are starving kids in the world? At which I would reply, Can you send it to them? That never went over very well.

Back to topic, I too think there is way, way too much conjecture on the OPs (hi Dmitry) part and this issue has been handled all wrong by him.

[ullmandds]

Yea it seems like I'm in the minority around here but I dont have a lot of sympathy in general for guys who are trying to steal a card and the transaction gets canceled. If you're buying a card for less than half of what it's worth there is a decent chance a seller may wake up and realize what he has one way or another. Stores and websites like Amazon will cancel an order due to an obvious pricing mistake or error. And so will many Ebay sellers. Deal with it and move on.

totally agree!

[egri]

When we were kids and didn't eat all of our food at dinner my dad would say, Do you know there are starving kids in the world? At which I would reply, Can you send it to them? That never went over very well.

I don’t get to geek out about logistics very often, so I’m going to take this OT for a minute, but the world’s farmers produce enough food each year to end world hunger, the problem is we don’t have a distribution network that can get food from the farms here to some tiny village deep in Africa without spending an arm and a leg to do it. And that’s before getting in to human factors like border crossings that get closed, warlords who seize the shipments for their supporters, etc.

[markf31]

The new seller is now claiming that he got the card in a trade for an expensive autograph, yet he won't tell me who he got it from.

He also claims he knows nothing of cards or Dietsche PCs, yet he has hundreds of graded cards for sale in his eBay store.

I'm now even more certain that showpiecessports is the one who bought the card from maxcollector69.

So you yourself lied, stating the new seller (Joe) has "hundreds of graded cards for sale in his eBay store." when in fact he has just 1, the card in question.

Funny you should mention this - I just got done reporting both of them to eBay over the phone for engaging in a transaction outside of eBay.

This is a direct violation of eBay rules.

I hope they both get banned!
While that might be true, I still feel it was worth my 10 minutes on the phone to report the incident and let eBay investigate, even if nothing comes of it.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

So you had enough time to sit on the phone with Ebay and report Joe with nothing more than speculative evidence at best, but you suddenly dont have time to sit down and talk with Joe himself in his multiple offers and attempts to talk??

So all the evidence so far points to Joe as the buyer of the card, and I should just blindly trust his word that he's innocent?

The original seller is NOT the only person who wronged me here.

If Joe's story has any merit at all, he needs to provide info on who traded him the card. IT IS MY BUSINESS if he's the only person who can provide that info.

If I were in Joe's shoes, not only would I do everything I could to help out, including providing info on the client, I'd also never do business again with that client. Joe obviously values his client over his ethics. And that's going on a HUGE assumption that his story is even true.

Sorry, but IMO it is NOT your business to know who Joe's client is. Using scant and extremely speculative evidence entitles you to nothing that took place between Joe and his client.

This thread certainly reveals more to me about the OP than it does Joe.

[sterlingfox]

An apology has been issued to Joe through eBay.

My actions were based purely on emotion rather than reason. When the Cobb resurfaced on eBay, it confirmed that I was lied to and cheated, and all I could see at that time was maxcollector69 as the seller, and Joe (wrongly) as the buyer.

I went about this all wrong, and attacked Joe without enough proof. For that, I am very sorry.

At the time, I didn't feel like a phone call was going to help my situation at all, but I was wrong about that too. I now deeply regret not having called and spoken to Joe before I let things get way out of hand.

[joed25]

Apology received and accepted.

[ullmandds]

An apology has been issued to Joe through eBay.

My actions were based purely on emotion rather than reason. When the Cobb resurfaced on eBay, it confirmed that I was lied to and cheated, and all I could see at that time was maxcollector69 as the seller, and Joe (wrongly) as the buyer.

I went about this all wrong, and attacked Joe without enough proof. For that, I am very sorry.

At the time, I didn't feel like a phone call was going to help my situation at all, but I was wrong about that too. I now deeply regret not having called and spoken to Joe before I let things get way out of hand.

you're a good man.

[slidekellyslide]

you're a good man.

Seconded.

It still sucks that someone messed with his good deal, and I would have been really hot about it too. He just let the emotions of it get the better of him.

[Dewey]

you're a good man.

A penitent one at least.

[ALR-bishop]

The penitent man will pass

[Wite3]

If I had a dollar for every second wasted reading this thread the last few days, I could have bought a Cobb postcard off ebay!

[calvindog]

I don’t get to geek out about logistics very often, so I’m going to take this OT for a minute, but the world’s farmers produce enough food each year to end world hunger, the problem is we don’t have a distribution network that can get food from the farms here to some tiny village deep in Africa without spending an arm and a leg to do it. And that’s before getting in to human factors like border crossings that get closed, warlords who seize the shipments for their supporters, etc.

This is actually the only interesting post of this entire thread.

[Stampsfan]

If I had a dollar for every second wasted reading this thread the last few days, I could have bought a Cobb postcard off ebay!

I read the first few posts on this thread when it first popped up. I thought it might be about some incredible (interesting) eBay find. When it wasn't either (incredible or interesting), I stopped reading it. However, I was curious tonight as to why it was still on the front page, so I opened it and went to the last page.

I saw this post, and realize I should have left well alone. Thanks for the info.

[steve B]

When we were kids and didn't eat all of our food at dinner my dad would say, Do you know there are starving kids in the world? At which I would reply, Can you send it to them? That never went over very well.



I did that too. Second biggest trouble I got into when I was little.
"There are starving children in X that would love those peas"
"Great! get me an envelope!" :D

[pokerplyr80]

If I had a dollar for every second wasted reading this thread the last few days, I could have bought a Cobb postcard off ebay!

If you got paid a dollar a second to do anything you'd make more in a year than most do in a lifetime.

[ALR-bishop]

“If I just had a dollar for every dollar I ever spent, heck I would have all my money back’....Jack Handey

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

“If I just had a dollar for every dollar I ever spent, heck I would have all my money back’....Jack Handey

Love Jack Handey.

Of course if I had a nickel for every dollar I've ever earned I'd be way ahead of where I am now lol.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Love Jack Handey.

Of course if I had a nickel for every dollar I've ever earned I'd be way ahead of where I am now lol.

a nickel aint worth a dime these days

[Rich Klein]

I think we all agree the OP went a tad too far in his conspiracy theories. And is upset at the wrong person (s).

However, he does have a point, which seems to be missed, is once a deal is agreed upon, it should be honored by both sides. if the original seller did not get enough for his card, well that's on him and the fake reason for not shipping the card was proven false when the card reappeared.

We've all screwed up at some point but at some point your word needs to be your bond

Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I think we all agree the OP went a tad too far in his conspiracy theories. And is upset at the wrong person (s).

However, he does have a point, which seems to be missed, is once a deal is agreed upon, it should be honored by both sides. if the original seller did not get enough for his card, well that's on him and the fake reason for not shipping the card was proven false when the card reappeared.

We've all screwed up at some point but at some point your word needs to be your bond

Rich

Pretty sure we're all in agreement on that point, don't feel it was missed. Maybe overshadowed, but not missed.