O/T Why doesn't MLB Celebrate Larry Doby more?

[rhettyeakley]

I was speaking with my brother Rhys on the phone today and we both got to speaking about Jackie Robinson and the other players from 1947 that "broke the color barrier" (and in the case of Johnny Wright, the other African American that broke in with Montreal in 1946 along with Jackie). I find it interesting that the American League does nothing to celebrate the man who broke their color barrier, Larry Doby.

I have heard people speak about the two situations and they described Jackie Robinson's situation as a slow roll-out after being with Montreal for a season while Larry Doby just sort of showed up one day. I think it is a bit lost that only the National League was involved in games involving Jackie Robinson, while the A.L. guys were also quietly paving new ground as well.

Also, almost never spoken about are the other 1947 guys that also faced a lot heat... Hank Thompson, Willard Brown, and Dan Bankhead.

Interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this.

Again, I am not trying to take anything away from Jackie just not seeing a lot of love for Larry Doby.

[frankbmd]

Thalia Menninger more loved than Larry Doby or Dobie in the long run.

[Rickyy]

I just read his autobiography. I agree he should be recognized as well. In his second season he helped them win the pennant. He said Bill Veeck was also a visionary who didn't see color and treated him not only equally as a player but also like a family member. As a side note My dad lived in Ohio around those glory days of the late 40's - early 50's Indians (in Berea after his family was released from japanese-american relocation camp - they moved there thanks to some family connections to temporary escape post war hostilities still present in California) and he rooted for Larry because he understood in a way the prejudice that he would and did face in the early days.

Ricky Y

[pclpads]

Like Avis, he was #2.

[seanofjapan]

Here is an interesting fact. We all know that Doby is famous as the "second man" not only for being the second to break the color barrier as a player but also as a manager (each time beaten by a guy named Robinson). But there is an overlooked third major accomplishment that he also came in second at.

In 1962 he and Don Newcombe became the first Major leaguers to play for NPB teams in Japan (the pro league there). They both played for the Chunichi Dragons in Nagoya (where, coincidentally, I now live). Newcombe made his debut on June 23 that year. Doby made his on.....June 30th! So he missed being the first MLBer to play in Japan by a week too!

If there was ever an award for "Most lifetime achievements of being a close second at major things" then he would win it hands down.

[JollyElm]

Perhaps it's simply a case of the ole 'First Man on the Moon' effect. Everyone always talks about Neil Armstrong, but far fewer give Buzz Aldrin his due respect. Could be a parallel there.

[iwantitiwinit]

In addition to what has already been mentioned, I would think the fact that the Dodgers were a more popular team plays a part in it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps it's simply a case of the ole 'First Man on the Moon' effect. Everyone always talks about Neil Armstrong, but far fewer give Buzz Aldrin his due respect. Could be a parallel there.

A French film called "Nagasaki, Mon Amour" would not have made it.

[packs]

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

[Snapolit1]

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

I'd argue that Monte Irwin is another trailblazer that is woefully ignored.

[packs]

I'd argue he is also in the HOF for his trailblazing and not his numbers. While there might not be a day for them and their numbers aren't universally retired, baseball has acknowledged their accomplishments.

[Huysmans]

I'd argue that Monte Irwin is another trailblazer that is woefully ignored.

For someone being called "woefully ignored", it would probably be best to spell his name correctly. :)

[rhettyeakley]

I guess I’d argue that as it relates to the American league he was #1 not #2. No American League team or city (that didn’t also have a NL team) had anything to do with Jackie Robinson.

I agree on Monte Irvin, it is interesting that he (Irvin) was viewed by many as the other Guy that would have been #1 had it not been Jackie Robinson.

[rhettyeakley]

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

Career 49.6 War, 7 x all star with a nearly identical number of hits as Jackie Robinson doesn’t really support your last statement. He wasn’t a first ballot HOFer for sure but he isn’t in the Hof only because he was the first AL African American.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think he's a HOFer just based on pure numbers.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (133), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 124 (153), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 72 (275), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (346), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[packs]

Career 49.6 War, 7 x all star with a nearly identical number of hits as Jackie Robinson doesn’t really support your last statement. He wasn’t a first ballot HOFer for sure but he isn’t in the Hof only because he was the first AL African American.

I don't think Jackie is a HOFer based purely on his numbers either, so Doby being comparable doesn't change my point of view. I don't think it was the numbers that got either in, it was the contribution to the game. Doby came second, even in the HOF but baseball clearly acknowledges his accomplishments by virtue of his induction.

Look at this way: Doby and Bernie Williams have almost identical careers and even the same WAR at the same position. Bernie Williams will not get into the HOF.

[rhettyeakley]

I don't think he's a HOFer just based on pure numbers.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (133), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 124 (153), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 72 (275), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (346), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Those are based only on his Major League stats. Keep in mind Doby played nearly 5 full seasons in the Negro Leagues as well. Obviously stats for those seasons are problematic but they still happened. We have a hard time with the players that did both as it makes things difficult to calculate. Much easier when they played their entire career in the Negro Leagues and we just resign ourselves to the knowledge that a lot of evidence for enshrinement is a bit anecdotal and can never be calculated like we are accustomed to.

Comparing Larry Doby’s Major League statistics to Bernie Williams’ career statistics is not a valid comparison.

I never said Doby was a 1st ballot HoFer, he had a solid career but rightfully was enshrined as a player, I felt like he was being dismissed as having been enshrined only because he was the 1st AA player in the American League, that is not true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I still don't think he's any better than outfielders such as Minoso and Colavito and Oliva etc. who history has adjudged to be one step below Hall level. That does not detract from him in any way, but I do think it's the case that his pioneering role had a lot to do with his selection.

[rhettyeakley]

I still don't think he's any better than outfielders such as Minoso and Colavito and Oliva etc. who history has adjudged to be one step below Hall level. That does not detract from him in any way, but I do think it's the case that his pioneering role had a lot to do with his selection.

I hear you and I agree with you about him probably not being better than Minoso, but I also believe Minoso should be in the HOF. That being said Doby had a better HOF career than Oliva and Colavito, especially when you factor in his time in the Negro Leagues.

[packs]

Why isn't Bernie Williams a valid comparison? They have the same exact WAR at the same position, which is what you used to assert Doby was a HOFer. Doby was 7x AS while Williams was 5. Williams has more hits than Doby as well to go along with a batting title and 4 championships. So if those stats made Doby a HOFer why is it not valid to compare him to Bernie?

[rhettyeakley]

Why isn't Bernie Williams a valid comparison? They have the same exact WAR at the same position, which is what you used to assert Doby was a HOFer. Doby was 7x AS while Williams was 5. Williams has more hits than Doby as well to go along with a batting title and 4 championships. So if those stats made Doby a HOFer why is it not valid to compare him to Bernie?

Did Bernie Williams play in the Negro Leagues for 5 seasons? You are essentially subtracting 5 years of Player A’s career and then saying that he compares to Player B because they have the same WAR.

[packs]

You brought up the WAR and other stats not me. Doby played in the Negro League from 18 to 22, which is time many Major Leaguers spend in the minor leagues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You brought up the WAR and other stats not me. Doby played in the Negro League from 18 to 22, which is time many Major Leaguers spend in the minor leagues.

Including Bernie Williams, it appears.

[packs]

Robinson was 28 by comparison which factors into the idea of a lost career more than ages 18 to 22, when only the elite of the elite can expect to be in the major leagues for any meaningful amount of time.

[rhettyeakley]

You brought up the WAR and other stats not me. Doby played in the Negro League from 18 to 22, which is time many Major Leaguers spend in the minor leagues.

But he couldn’t play in the Minor Leagues could he?

You have no idea if he would have played in the Minor Leagues, the Negro Leagues were pretty high level competition or we wouldn’t have enshrined players that played only there.

Getting back to the point, this why I said that it wasn’t a valid comparison. Not sure why you like to argue so much.

[rhettyeakley]

Robinson was 28 by comparison which factors into the idea of a lost career more than ages 18 to 22, when only the elite of the elite can expect to be in the major leagues for any meaningful amount of time.

Age is meaningless, there have always been players that were better than their ages would indicate. In this case Doby actually had a more Negro League experience by the time 1947 rolled around than Jackie Robinson did so again I don’t really see your point.

[packs]

You brought everything up I commented on but you discounted what I said because it was me who said it. I pointed out his age because it seems relevant when you're saying he lost 5 seasons. Those seasons were likely minor league seasons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jackie also had the third highest WAR for the decade he played, behind Williams and Musial.

[tedzan]

Hi Rhett

Here's my recollection of the 1947 - 1948 American League events regarding Larry Doby and Satchell Paige. I was only 10 years old then,
but a very avid BB fan (Yankees), and with an unforgetable memory of those great times.
As you know, as you age, the memories of your youth can be surprisingly clear. But, you cannot recall yesterday's events :)

Anyhow, in 1948 Larry Doby was actually 3rd in the "favorability" column. He was sort of overshadowed by his new teammate, Satchell Paige.
Paige was everyone's favorite. Nonetheless, the two of them together were instrumental in Cleveland's American League Championship victory.

Paige....W-L 6-1 (including 2 Shutouts) and 2.48 ERA
Doby....BA= .301 (132 Hits), 14 HR's, 83 Runs, 66 RBI's

The general Sports media back then of course favored Jackie Robinson. However, the North Jersey sports media really gave Larry Doby a lot of
publicity since he lived in Paterson, NJ.

Larry was a really friendly guy to meet with and chat and get his autograph.


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/leaflarrydoby.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1949LeafPaige25x.jpg




Incidentally, in the 1936 Summer Olympics, Jessie Owens certainly deserved all the publicity. Ironically, Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother)
was also a tremendous athlete in this Olympics. But, how many people recall Mack Robinson's achievement's ?



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[rhettyeakley]

You brought everything up I commented on but you discounted what I said because it was me who said it. Only the best of the best play full seasons of major league baseball before 22. Even Gehrig didn't play a full season until he was 22.

So are we just going to pretend like Doby didn’t play those seasons? What exactly is your point?

He played more seasons in a high level league that we don’t have valid stats for that ARE included in his legacy but because of some asinine logic about how he was too young we should discount that as never having happened and compare him to a player that played an entire career and amassed the same WAR as a player that didn’t have those same possibilities?

Again, comparing a player that played 5 years in the Negro Leagues and then had a very good career in the Majors to a guy 35 years later with none of those factors is (and I will say this slowly) NOT A VALID COMPARISON!

Also, Larry Doby is only 4 years younger than Jackie. He turned 24 the year he began playing for the Indians.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did the Negro Leagues have a minor league system?

[rhettyeakley]

Hi Rhett

Here's my recollection of the 1947 - 1948 American League events regarding Larry Doby and Satchell Paige. I was only 10 years old then,
but a very avid BB fan (Yankees), and with an unforgetable memory of those great times.
As you know, as you age, the memories of your youth can be surprisingly clear. But, you cannot recall yesterday's events :)

Anyhow, in 1948 Larry Doby was actually 3rd in the "favorability" column. He was sort of overshadowed by his new teammate, Satchell Paige.
Paige was everyone's favorite. Nonetheless, the two of them together were instrumental in Cleveland's American League Championship victory.

Paige....W-L 6-1 (including 2 Shutouts) and 2.48 ERA
Doby....BA= .301 (132 Hits), 14 HR's, 83 Runs, 66 RBI's

The general Sports media back then of course favored Jackie Robinson. However, the North Jersey sports media really gave Larry Doby a lot of
publicity since he lived in Paterson, NJ.

Larry was a really friendly guy to meet with and chat and get his autograph.


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/leaflarrydoby.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1949LeafPaige25x.jpg




Incidentally, in the 1936 Summer Olympics, Jessie Owens certainly deserved all the publicity. Ironically, Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother)
was also a tremendous athlete in this Olympics. But, how many people recall Mack Robinson's achievement's ?



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Ted, you are correct in that Mack Robinson is really fascinating story as well. The supporting characters in a story often get overlooked is the take home message to all of this, I suppose.

[packs]

So are we just going to pretend like Doby didn’t play those seasons? What exactly is your point?

He played more seasons in a high level league that we don’t have valid stats for that ARE included in his legacy but because of some asinine logic about how he was too young we should discount that as never having happened and compare him to a player that played an entire career and amassed the same WAR as a player that didn’t have those same possibilities?

Again, comparing a player that played 5 years in the Negro Leagues and then had a very good career in the Majors to a guy 35 years later with none of those factors is (and I will say this slowly) NOT A VALID COMPARISON!

Also, Larry Doby is only 4 years younger than Jackie. He turned 24 the year he began playing for the Indians.


My point is pretty simple really. You keep asserting that Doby lost peak seasons of his career while he was 18 to 22. I don't think he did because that's not the case for the majority of major leaguers who tend to spend that time either playing college ball or minor league ball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even recognizing the limitations of the Negro League stats, it doesn't look like Larry was exactly a superstar at that early age, such that one needs to credit him with 5 extra outstanding seasons to make a fair assessment.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=doby--001law

[tedzan]

Very interesting thread........thought I'd give it a friendly bump by including some pictures.



1948 Cleveland Indians team photo pack (25 subjects).... Larry's 1st pix

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1948pixdobypaige_1.jpg






1949 LEAF (issued in Summer of 1949) ...... 1949 BOWMAN (issued in the Fall of 1949)

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/leaflarrydoby.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1949BowmanLarryDoby1951.jpg







Very rare 1949 BOWMAN color printing errors (including Doby)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/49BslateSniderCampySislerDoby.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted -- on the Campanella any idea why the gray ones only grade AUTHENTIC? Mine looks factory cut to me.

[pclpads]

Ted - your remembrance that, "Larry was a really friendly guy to meet with and chat and get his autograph," reminded me that when I was on the Padres grounds crew at SD Stadium around '76, he was a coach for Montreal. I gave him his '52T and '57T cards to sign. Very warm memory. Very pleasant man.

[tedzan]

Ted -- on the Campanella any idea why the gray ones only grade AUTHENTIC? Mine looks factory cut to me.


Peter

Your Campy is most likely a legitimate factory issued card.

However, they are graded "A" because most of the TPG's are ignorant of of what's going on here.

When I collected these 1949 BOWMAN's in my youth, I clearly recall opening 1949 waxpacks with SLATE (or other color error) cards included in them with normal colored cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Jackie not a HOF'er by the Numbers? by WAR he's 12th all-time at 2b, with the 6th best 7 year peak at the position. He has an MVP and finished top 10 3 other times and was viewed as one of the great defensive 2b of his era if not all time. ROY, 6x All-Star. He's 3rd All-time in 2b OPS, 8th in OPS+. He led the league in OBP once, Batting once (different years) and SB twice. His late start in the majors accounts for his lack of counting stats, but he's clearly one of the 10 best 2b ever and to me that's a HOF'er. Forget the color barrier for a minute his counting stats would've been negatively impacted by his service in WWII also, and that service was commonly accounted for by voters.

[Rookiemonster]

I agree that Larry Doby should have the same type of acknowledgments as Jamie Robinson. But Monte Irvin was supposed to be the first African American baseball player. The Newark Eagles would not allow him the star player to leave.
Willie Mays said that money Irvin was the best baseball player he had seen. And he help mentor Willie Mays when he came in to the league.

[Topnotchsy]

I think the simple answer is that as time goes on, we stop remembering the details, and we focus on the individual symbol. Jackie has become the symbol for the struggle of all those how have been forgotten. Definitely for people who are interested in the history, there are a ton of important names including Doby, Paige, Willard Brown, Campanella and others. I've long felt that Frank Robinson deserved more attention as well being the first black manager.

My collection focuses around Jackie and the integration and for me the story definitely extends to include those players including the '48 Indians team that was the first to feature black players and win the World Series.

Hope no one minds me adding some pics including a signature of the aforementioned Mack Robinson.

[Dewey]

Cool Mack piece!

[z28jd]

I'd like to know why it's referred to still as the color barrier when there were clearly players of color in the majors, many with African blood from Cuba. It was an African-American barrier they broke, but players of color were in the majors for years before Robinson came along. I think those players get lost in the history of the sport when you talk about paving the way.

I also agree on Doby and any other players right after Robinson, because if those players did something "wrong" while fighting back the racism they endured, then who knows how things would have went from there.

A pet peeve of mine is lazy history, such as crediting one person for an event. A great example would be the midnight run of Paul Revere. When you learn the real history of that event, then it looks ridiculous to celebrate just Revere. Major League Baseball takes the lazy route with celebrating the breaking of the color barrier by putting everything on one player when so many other players deserve credit too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to know why it's referred to still as the color barrier when there were clearly players of color in the majors, many with African blood from Cuba. It was an African-American barrier they broke, but players of color were in the majors for years before Robinson came along. I think those players get lost in the history of the sport when you talk about paving the way.

I also agree on Doby and any other players right after Robinson, because if those players did something "wrong" while fighting back the racism they endured, then who knows how things would have went from there.

A pet peeve of mine is lazy history, such as crediting one person for an event. A great example would be the midnight run of Paul Revere. When you learn the real history of that event, then it looks ridiculous to celebrate just Revere. Major League Baseball takes the lazy route with celebrating the breaking of the color barrier by putting everything on one player when so many other players deserve credit too.

Lazy history is easier to digest. For example, if you really study Germany in the 1930s, the rise of the Nazi party is a heck of a lot more complicated than just one tyrant.

[DeafSports]

Why didnt MLB celebrate the barrier of deafness to play in MLB? I can understand and love what MLB is doing for Jackie Robinson but why cant Dummy Hoy find himself in HOF or for us to celebrate his achieve in time matters. We have million of deaf / hard of hearing children out there would love to know about him and feel that they have a good shot of playing baseball.

Best,
Danny

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Why didnt MLB celebrate the barrier of deafness to play in MLB? I can understand and love what MLB is doing for Jackie Robinson but why cant Dummy Hoy find himself in HOF or for us to celebrate his achieve in time matters. We have million of deaf / hard of hearing children out there would love to know about him and feel that they have a good shot of playing baseball.

Best,
Danny

Not to be insensitive, my wife actually collects major leaguers with disabilities, but deaf players were never banned from playing. Yes both groups were discriminated against, but the level of discrimination isn't comparable unless deaf people were enslaved and once freed, occasioanlly lynched because they were deaf.

[packs]

Baseball developed it's current signaling system as a result of players like Dummy Hoy and maybe even Hoy himself if the legend is true. That's a pretty significant contribution to make to the game, one that endures and seemingly has no end in sight. I think that's something baseball can acknowledge.

[Topnotchsy]

I’d love to learn more about the impact of hearing impaired people on the game. Can someone make a separate post on that? At the same time I don’t think that that detracts from the focus of this thread which is also important.

[FourStrikes]

World Champion player...and pitchman: