Indians to remove chief Wahoo stating in 2019

[Rookiemonster]

Well as a Yankees fan I can’t say it hurts me that bad. But I do feel this is unnecessary to do at this point. I know not everyone will agree with me but this seems to be to PC for me. We will have to start removing everything from the public eye in fear of offending someone. You can’t please all the people all the time.

[bbcard1]

Another case of the white man putting the red man down.

[darwinbulldog]

Good.

[iowadoc77]

We live in a too-easily-offended society. Just my 2 cents worth. Sad to see it go. Such an iconic logo

[packs]

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

[bbcard1]

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

I am increasingly finding it difficult to care about what anybody does.

[Rookiemonster]

I agree packs but also the name Indians would have to be changed. Also the name of the Yankees comes from a derogatory term for the Dutch in the north.
Getting in to other sports would open more of this up( like the red skins) maybe we should start call the teams 1-2-3 etc .

[Orioles1954]

About time. If the logo is supposedly no big deal then there shouldn't be any problems in changing it.

[packs]

That's what I mean though, Yankees and Indians are not the same as a logo made to stereotype a group of people. Nothing about indians by itself is offense, and there certainly isn't anything offensive about Yankee. But when you pair the image of an indian with stereotypical features, you're creating something that is offensive to people.

[vintagetoppsguy]

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

The "what's next" point of view means what's next in society, not just the sports world.

For someone who advocates Freedom of Speech (as you certainly did in the Colin Kaepernick thread defending his right to kneel), you sure don't mind limiting the speech of others.

[packs]

The "what's next" point of view means what's next in society, not just the sports world.

For someone who advocates Freedom of Speech (as you certainly did in the Colin Kaepernick thread defending his right to kneel), you sure don't mind limiting the speech of others.


This part of the hyperbole I was talking about. Limiting speech how? You can wear any shirt you want with the logo on it. You can wear all the hats you want. The baseball team just won't be using the logo as their official logo anymore. What does that have to do with free speech or taking rights away from people?

[Marckus99]

Great.
And now the world has been cured of all its ills.
Just like that.

[Rookiemonster]

I also feel a way a about a name to this day the negro leagues. While it was named this a pointvin history where is was considered acceptable is still hard to say in 2018. I remember talk Baseball with a coworker and saying it without thinking then he made a face and I was like oh snap. And looked around to see a few confused faces .

[Orioles1954]

Great.
And now the world has been cured of all its ills.
Just like that.

Of course not. Just a tiny, teeny step in the right direction.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

It could also be a marketing thing.

Change the logo, sell more shirts, hats, etc. With all the success of the Indians the last 2 years, they might be looking for a new way to boost sales.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Next...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91zgC6mUxIL._SL1500_.jpg

[Gobucsmagic74]

Next...



Good for you. At least now we all know

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is an obnoxious logo and it's probably long overdue that they lost it. That said, of course symbolic gestures like these aren't going to do a heck of a lot to solve the devastating problems facing many Native Americans. In that regard, although it's decades old now, Gary Smith wrote a brilliant piece in Sports Illustrated about a basketball player who for a time left the reservation to play for a small college, and the difficulties he faced including being stigmatized by many of his people.

[ejharrington]

I'm offended, the New York Americans should change their name:


1. Yan·kee
[ˈyaNGkē]

NOUN
informal
Yankees (plural noun)
1. derogatory
a person who lives in, or is from, the US.
2. US
an inhabitant of New England or one of the northern states.
3. a code word representing the letter Y, used in radio communication.
4. sailing
a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds.

[prewarsports]

The name "Indians" was an early attempt to honor a Native American star (Louis Sockalexis) in the 1910's and hearken back to the 1890's when the Cleveland team was good and he was the centerpiece of the squad. Removing the logo is fine, but I think changing the name of this team would be a mistake. Create a new logo that honors the heritage instead.

[Stampsfan]

This thread has the potential to go off the rails big time. Let's all play nice, boys.

I feel that if the people that could potentially be offended are bringing this up, that would be the best barometer to gauge a change. A bunch of rich middle aged white guys making this decision, IMHO, limits the credibility and smacks of political correctness. Is there an outcry from our Native American brethren? I simply don't know.

There are so many comparatives that we've all heard, including the Blackhawks (who were named in honor of Chief Black Hawk), and even the Eskimos in our little football league up here. But the angle I best remember (and wish it was my original thought) was something I read a couple of years ago around the "Fightin' Irish". There is what could be interpreted as a poor characterization of Irish folks by the logo, and insinuation that they are all a bunch of lewd, scrappers. However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.

[Stampsfan]

The name "Indians" was an early attempt to honor a Native American star (Louis Sockalexis) in the 1910's and hearken back to the 1890's when the Cleveland team was good and he was the centerpiece of the squad. Removing the logo is fine, but I think changing the name of this team would be a mistake. Create a new logo that honors the heritage instead.

I just learned something. Thank you.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I agree, a bunch of middle aged white guys shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't offensive to others. This applies to pretty much everything

[Peter_Spaeth]

Middle aged white guys are sometimes the agents of revolutionary change. Abraham Lincoln, for one. Earl Warren and the Supreme Court, for another. Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Act.

[packs]

This thread has the potential to go off the rails big time. Let's all play nice, boys.

I feel that if the people that could potentially be offended are bringing this up, that would be the best barometer to gauge a change. A bunch of rich middle aged white guys making this decision, IMHO, limits the credibility and smacks of political correctness. Is there an outcry from our Native American brethren? I simply don't know.

There are so many comparatives that we've all heard, including the Blackhawks (who were named in honor of Chief Black Hawk), and even the Eskimos in our little football league up here. But the angle I best remember (and wish it was my original thought) was something I read a couple of years ago around the "Fightin' Irish". There is what could be interpreted as a poor characterization of Irish folks by the logo, and insinuation that they are all a bunch of lewd, scrappers. However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.


Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

I was at the Super Bowl when the Redskins played the Bills. There was a very large and vocal protest.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Middle aged white guys are sometimes the agents of revolutionary change. Abraham Lincoln, for one. Earl Warren and the Supreme Court, for another. Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Act.

LOL! Peter, you had me until your LBJ reference. He was a racist! Already had this discussion with someone else on Friday, so I am very well equipped to defend my position on that one. :D

[bigfish]

Well as a Yankees fan I can’t say it hurts me that bad. But I do feel this is unnecessary to do at this point. I know not everyone will agree with me but this seems to be to PC for me. We will have to start removing everything from the public eye in fear of offending someone. You can’t please all the people all the time.


Poor use of time, resources, and energy.

[ejharrington]

Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

A SMALL NUMBER OF Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL! Peter, you had me until your LBJ reference. He was a racist! Already had this discussion with someone else on Friday, so I am very well equipped to defend my position on that one. :D

David, he doubtless was for much of his life, but he changed. Read the incredible speech to Congress where the punch line is his adoption of the "We Shall Overcome" lyric.

[brianp-beme]

I'm offended, the New York Americans should change their name:


1. Yan·kee
[ˈyaNGkē]

NOUN
informal
Yankees (plural noun)...

4. sailing
a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds.

If I were a Yankees fan I would object to being associated with a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds. I would vote to change the team name to "New York Northeast Americans", as geographically this just plain makes sense, and would rid the team of the negative sailing connotations associated with light winds.

Brian

[drcy]

Irrelevant to political/racial issues and whether or not the name 'Indians' itself is reverent, it's a rather stupid and outdated cartoon logo, and teams alter and change their logos all the time. My various favorite teams have changed their logos and designs regularly during my fandom-- sometimes to my aesthetic disappointment. I wish the Milwaukee Brewers had kept their 'ball in glove' logo.

[KMayUSA6060]

I agree, a bunch of middle aged white guys shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't offensive to others. This applies to pretty much everything

I agree. So let the Native Americans speak for themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?utm_term=.1183ae35b0f7

By the way, the Indians are being massive babies about this on Facebook. I posted a vulgar-free, factual comment using the article above, and they marked it as SPAM. I'm PO'd as a diehard Indians fan. Rob Manfred can kiss my rear end, too, which is what the spineless Paul Dolan should have told him to do.


KEEP THE CHIEF

[packs]

The issue is not about polling it's about treating people with respect regardless of whether X number of people think you should. Also this article is about the name "Redskins" and not related at all to the Chief Wahoo logo.

[TobaccoKing4]

I'm not happy about Wahoo being removed, but I wonder if there will be a name change in the future. I think it'd be cool if they went back to being the Cleveland Spiders, or even cooler if they took the name of the Cleveland Naps.

[drcy]

The Spiders would be cool.

https://feminema.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/tumblr_lnk15otusn1qzdllzo1_500.jpg

Bonus point to anyone who know what movie that image comes from.

[Dewey2007]

As an American Indian I am glad to see the Chief Wahoo symbol go as iconic as it is to many. I am not opposed to them keeping the name Indians if they should consider getting rid of that to. If they were smart they would reach out to the local tribes in the area and see what they can come up in terms of a symbol that is non-offensive and represents the local tribes of the area. Something they should have done long ago. I think that would be a win-win for both the tribes and the team.

[perezfan]

I'm not happy about Wahoo being removed, but I wonder if there will be a name change in the future. I think it'd be cool if they went back to being the Cleveland Spiders, or even cooler if they took the name of the Cleveland Naps.

They won’t do something cool like that. They don’t want to offend anything or anyone in the Arachnid or LaJoie Family. In this era, it’s always a benign/cheap nickname that wins out... often not ending in an “s”. The WFL pretty much started this awful trend (Shreveport Steamer, Southern California Sun). And ever since, it’s just gotten worse.

Maybe they could follow Stanford’s lead. I know the name “Cardinal” is already taken, but perhaps they could be the “Cleveland Scarlet”. They could wear plain red hats, and a name like that could strike some fear into their opponents.

Perfect for a bland society!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Being of Irish descent, I am offended by the Boston Celtics branding of a leprechaun in their logo. It's insensitive and stereotypical to Irish people. Who do I contact to have it removed?

Edited to add: And while we're at it, can I get that little leprechaun from ND removed too? That's just as offensive to me with his little fists raised in the air like he's ready to fight. Fighting Irish? I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Cliff Bowman]

The Spiders would be cool.

https://feminema.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/tumblr_lnk15otusn1qzdllzo1_500.jpg

Bonus point to anyone who know what movie that image comes from.

Like OJ, I'll take a stab at it. Tarantula (1955)?

[timn1]

That logo is an embarrassment. It’s hard to even imagine a more uncomplimentary image of an “Indian” than that face is.


That's what I mean though, Yankees and Indians are not the same as a logo made to stereotype a group of people. Nothing about indians by itself is offense, and there certainly isn't anything offensive about Yankee. But when you pair the image of an indian with stereotypical features, you're creating something that is offensive to people.

[rainier2004]

Wow, all these great ideas about what should be done representing an entire group of people that were suppressed and destroyed. Native Americans were treated like pure garbage for a long time. Many Native Americans fought for and defended this country during WW1 w/o citizenship and basic rights we take for granted.

This conversation isn't about the Irish who were also oppressed for a long time...

That logo is so bad, so stereotypical and just condones making fun of certain groups. Polish are ok to make fun of...dumb polocks right?

How about if the organization actually reached out with the local tribes like previously mentioned? Why not? Why not respect others and change to evolve of society?

FSU has done some things to reach out to the Seminole Nation...just doesn't seem that complicated to me. Just be respectful, that's something we haven't always done in the past and does not quantify a reason to not do it in the future.

[timn1]

I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp either - just treat all groups of people with respect-

Wow, all these great ideas about what should be done representing an entire group of people that were suppressed and destroyed. Native Americans were treated like pure garbage for a long time. Many Native Americans fought for and defended this country during WW1 w/o citizenship and basic rights we take for granted.

This conversation isn't about the Irish who were also oppressed for a long time...

That logo is so bad, so stereotypical and just condones making fun of certain groups. Polish are ok to make fun of...dumb polocks right?

How about if the organization actually reached out with the local tribes like previously mentioned? Why not? Why not respect others and change to evolve of society?

FSU has done some things to reach out to the Seminole Nation...just doesn't seem that complicated to me. Just be respectful, that's something we haven't always done in the past and does not quantify a reason to not do it in the future.

[Dewey]

Caricatures of historically oppressed peoples are bad form. Good riddance to Chief Wahoo. To desire these caricatures gone is not "pc," it is being a decent human being. Cartoonish depictions of oppressed people do not arise in a vacuum. They are often rooted in explicit or implicit bias. Removing the caricature does not end the disadvantage of the group, but is a form of not kicking a man when he's down. If you can't or don't want to help a guy up, at least don't kick him. Not a great moral advance, but at least it is something.

Team names/mascots that refer to people groups and reflect them in a strong, dignified way are fine by me. But caricatures are not that.

Our images matter. That say something, whether intended or not. This is a move in a healthy direction. The town of Whitesboro, NY learned the lesson. Why not the Indians?

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/09/28/us/28xp-Whitesboro/28xp-Whitesboro-master768.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

That has to be the Net 54 debut of the lovely Tandra Quinn.

[drcy]

Mesa of Lost Women (1953). My all-time favorite of the 'So Bad They're Good' vintage horror films (And I've seen all the Ed Wood films).

[Section103]

As an American Indian I am glad to see the Chief Wahoo symbol go as iconic as it is to many. I am not opposed to them keeping the name Indians if they should consider getting rid of that to. If they were smart they would reach out to the local tribes in the area and see what they can come up in terms of a symbol that is non-offensive and represents the local tribes of the area. Something they should have done long ago. I think that would be a win-win for both the tribes and the team.

I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp either - just treat all groups of people with respect-


These pretty much sum it up for me. It wont solve the world's problems, but its a step in the right direction. The sky wont fall when the change is made, either.

[baseball tourist]

These pretty much sum it up for me. It wont solve the world's problems, but its a step in the right direction. The sky wont fall when the change is made, either.

Agreed. Long overdue.

[KMayUSA6060]

I challenge everyone complaining about Chief Wahoo to actually do something for these oppressed Native Americans you apparently care so much about. Protest the government for putting them on reservations, protest to get them their land back. Hell, leave this country since it belonged to them before the white man came along. Take action, other than getting rid of a logo designed to pay tribute to Indians, to clear your conscious and rid yourself of whatever guilt you may feel for some reason.

Otherwise, you're choosing to be offended, and for some reason you think the world should shift/change to fit your beliefs. That's exactly what this is about. It's incredible how little credit you're giving those who oppose you. What did they do to make you believe they are so heartless for liking Chief Wahoo? What if they just choose to not look for something offensive? What if they simply view Chief Wahoo for what it is: a fun-loving, smiling Indian logo created to pay homage to Native American heritage, Cleveland baseball history, and Louis Sockalexis? Just take a second and think about that. Why do SO many people like him if he's supposedly that offensive? Why don't you just not support the Indians?

Now my team that I've grown up rooting for, the one that has had Chief Wahoo since the '40s, chose to cower to Manfred and the minority. I now lose the chance to see Chief Wahoo on the National Stage. Do you know how proud I and so many others were to see that smiling Indian in the World Series in 2016? I was a baby, but I don't think I've ever heard a story about people bitchin' and moanin' in the '90s when the Jake was sold out game after game for nearly a decade, Chief Wahoo on EVERYONE's person. I own ONE tshirt with the Block C, and that's because it has an American Flag in it (is that offensive because we took this land from he Native Americans?).

Additionally, you can't marginalize vintagetoppsguy for bringing up the Irish mascot for both the Celtics and Notre Dame. That's hypocritical. Or how about the following...

San Francisco Giants = offensive to little people
Minnesota Twins = offensive to only children, triplets, quintuplets, etc.
NY Yankees = offensive to the Dutch (didn't know that) and southerners; hell, as a northerner, I'm not sure I like being referred to as a Yankee
Tampa Bay Rays = what about the rest of the shark family?
Chicago Cubs = offensive to grown bears, plus the bear is brown; what about black bears, polar bears, etc.?
White Sox & Red Sox = what about blue sox, grey socks, black socks, green socks, yellow socks, etc.?
Kansas City Royals = offensive to people who aren't of royal blood
Oakland A's = an elephant on a circus ball is offensive, especially considering the Ringling Bros Circus or whatever was discontinued to people getting offended
Detroit Tigers = what about the rest of the cat family?
Philly Phanatic = what about lethargic fans?
Colorado Rockies = what about the Appalachian Mountains?
Arizona Diamondbacks = really, referring to rattlesnakes as diamondbacks... that's pretty offensive to them
Cardinals & Orioles = what about other birds?

I'll stick to just the MLB, and won't bring up the other offensive names in sports; I'm sure if I look hard enough, I could find something to be offended about with every single nickname/logo in sports. And how ridiculous the above seem, is how ridiculous the argument against Chief Wahoo is with very few of the outspoken minority against Chief Wahoo being Native American (from what I've seen/heard).

Keep the Chief. You'll see me an thousands of others at games next year sporting nothing but Chief Wahoo gear.

And another sick angle to this: Manfred probably threatened to take away the 2019 All Star Game if Dolan kept Chief Wahoo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am reminded of one of the most pathetic sights I ever have seen -- Jane Fonda doing the tomahawk chop.

[Snapolit1]

Basically the equivalent to some mocking horrible black stereotype character from the 1930-40 with huge lips and bulging eyes. Hard to imagine there can even be a discussion on this one.

[KMayUSA6060]

Basically the equivalent to some mocking horrible black stereotype character from the 1930-40 with huge lips and bulging eyes. Hard to imagine there can even be a discussion on this one.

Furthest thing from it. Those depictions were malicious.

By the way, the Indians can't go with the Block C anymore. The Block C was also the logo of the Indianapolis Clowns. Talk about offensive.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David -- here is a link to the speech. LBJ clearly had evolved, as he says himself.

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/johnson.htm

[orly57]

Exactly Steve. For some reason, people think racism only applies to African Americans. As if only they should be protected from epithets and stereotypes. As if they were the only ones who have been subject to racism in this country. I think that the term "redskin" is every bit as racist as the "n word" that we can't even utter, much less name a professional sports team after. The Indian caricature was shameful. And by the way, I can't stand political correctness. Its proponents have been the the proverbial "boy who cried wolf." When truly disturbing issues like this are raised, they are treated with an eye-roll because we are all so sick of it. But this one, and the redskins, in my opinion, have real merit.

[Orioles1954]

Exactly Steve. For some reason, people think racism only applies to African Americans. As if only they should be protected from epithets and stereotypes. As if they were the only ones who have been subject to racism in this country. I think that the term "redskin" is every bit as racist as the "n word" that we can't even utter, much less name a professional sports team after. The Indian caricature was shameful. And by the way, I can't stand political correctness. It has been the equivalent of the boy who cried wolf. When truly disturbing things like this are raised, it is treated with an eye-roll because we are all so sick of it. But this one, and the redskins, in my opinion, have real merit.

+1

[A2000]

I'm shocked by how this thread has gone. :rolleyes:

[rainier2004]

Kyle - I have reached out to Native Americans, I have asked them what they of names like those that belonged to Central Michigan University and the Cleveland Indians. I have gone to gatherings and social events that bring awareness to the tough road they have traveled. So why don't I do something you ask? Speaking my opinion is doing something, asking opinions and listening is doing something and becoming willing to change is doing something IMO.

Will removing this logo change the lives of all Native Americans? Absolutely not, not in any way. Go ono a reservation, study some history and look at what was done to this entire group as a whole and tell me how "important" that logo is...really? That cartoonish big smiling Chief is simply not cool and those are not my words only.

Why doesn't the Indians organization reach out to the local tribes and come to some sort of understanding? How hard would that be? I know there are ways for this to be done, its been done before and Id assume it will be done again. But I couldn't care less about how important this logo is to you or any "fan"...its simply disrespectful. We need to come to an understanding and evolve as the times evolve and we grow as a nation or we will die by killing our own brothers and sisters. I hate PC as well, just like Orly stated, but sometimes things need to change.

[mark evans]

I agree with the decision to replace the Wahoo logo. And, I acknowledge that heading down this road will raise some tough line-drawing problems. But, public policy frequently involves resolution of just such problems; they can't be avoided.

[ronniehatesjazz]

David, he doubtless was for much of his life, but he changed. Read the incredible speech to Congress where the punch line is his adoption of the "We Shall Overcome" lyric.

Sorry Pete but he was quoted as saying “we’re gonna have these n-word’s voting for democrats for the next hundred years!”

Perhaps a skilled politician but a terrible man.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Irrelevant to political/racial issues and whether or not the name 'Indians' itself is reverent, it's a rather stupid and outdated cartoon logo, and teams alter and change their logos all the time. My various favorite teams have changed their logos and designs regularly during my fandom-- sometimes to my aesthetic disappointment. I wish the Milwaukee Brewers had kept their 'ball in glove' logo.

Agree on all points

[vintagetoppsguy]

Sorry Pete but he was quoted as saying “we’re gonna have these n-word’s voting for democrats for the next hundred years!”

Perhaps a skilled politician but a terrible man.

You're very close, but he actually said 200 years. I was going to say this, even had my response typed out, but I didn't want to hijack the thread, nor did I want it to become political.

[timn1]

Edited for civility, but still...

Furthest thing from it. Those depictions were malicious.

By the way, the Indians can't go with the Block C anymore. The Block C was also the logo of the Indianapolis Clowns. Talk about offensive.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sorry Pete but he was quoted as saying “we’re gonna have these n-word’s voting for democrats for the next hundred years!”

Perhaps a skilled politician but a terrible man.

I read Robert Caro's biography. I came away believing he changed. Nothing and nobody forced him to become the relentless champion of civil rights that he became as President.

[tjb1952tjb]

Basically the equivalent to some mocking horrible black stereotype character from the 1930-40 with huge lips and bulging eyes. Hard to imagine there can even be a discussion on this one.

Calls to mind the old Sambo's restaurants.........

[pclpads]

The once proud Cleveland franchise can now change their name to the Cleveland Pu**ies, after capitulating to the PC crowd. Only problem is what a relevant mascot would look like. :mad:

[Bpm0014]

However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.

Aaaaaaa-men!!

[Bored5000]

Additionally, you can't marginalize vintagetoppsguy for bringing up the Irish mascot for both the Celtics and Notre Dame. That's hypocritical. Or how about the following...

San Francisco Giants = offensive to little people
Minnesota Twins = offensive to only children, triplets, quintuplets, etc.
NY Yankees = offensive to the Dutch (didn't know that) and southerners; hell, as a northerner, I'm not sure I like being referred to as a Yankee
Tampa Bay Rays = what about the rest of the shark family?
Chicago Cubs = offensive to grown bears, plus the bear is brown; what about black bears, polar bears, etc.?
White Sox & Red Sox = what about blue sox, grey socks, black socks, green socks, yellow socks, etc.?
Kansas City Royals = offensive to people who aren't of royal blood
Oakland A's = an elephant on a circus ball is offensive, especially considering the Ringling Bros Circus or whatever was discontinued to people getting offended
Detroit Tigers = what about the rest of the cat family?
Philly Phanatic = what about lethargic fans?
Colorado Rockies = what about the Appalachian Mountains?
Arizona Diamondbacks = really, referring to rattlesnakes as diamondbacks... that's pretty offensive to them
Cardinals & Orioles = what about other birds?



You are seriously trying to equate a logo stereotyping an entire race of people with logos "offensive" to mountain chains or different colored socks or members of the animal kingdom?

That line of argument doesn't do any favors to your defense of Chief Wahoo. That argument is a pretty glaring exhibit that Chief Wahoo is an offensive stereotype that needs to be thrown on the dustbin of history,

[bbcardzman]

Just more stupidity from the idiots on the left

[Bpm0014]

How long before the Rebels and Running Rebels are forced by the left to change their names too? :rolleyes:

[darwinbulldog]

It'll be interesting to see how many of you guys Leon decides to ban now.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

This is the right move, and it should have happened a long time ago.

I'm an Indians fan and had avoided the Wahoo logo for years.

[keithsky]

Were all getting to be like robots. Everyone has to do and say the right thing without offending anyone otherwise they'll protest. Everyone has there own view on things in life as it should be. If I don't like something doesn't mean the other guy has to agree or if I like something doesn't mean everyone has to but that is what society wants anymore. Everyone is on edge to make sure whatever they say doesn't hurt anyones fellings. We're all different and should be, that is what makes us unique.

[darwinbulldog]

I challenge everyone complaining about Chief Wahoo to actually do something for these oppressed Native Americans you apparently care so much about. Protest the government for putting them on reservations, protest to get them their land back. Hell, leave this country since it belonged to them before the white man came along. Take action, other than getting rid of a logo designed to pay tribute to Indians, to clear your conscious and rid yourself of whatever guilt you may feel for some reason.

Otherwise, you're choosing to be offended, and for some reason you think the world should shift/change to fit your beliefs. That's exactly what this is about. It's incredible how little credit you're giving those who oppose you. What did they do to make you believe they are so heartless for liking Chief Wahoo? What if they just choose to not look for something offensive? What if they simply view Chief Wahoo for what it is: a fun-loving, smiling Indian logo created to pay homage to Native American heritage, Cleveland baseball history, and Louis Sockalexis? Just take a second and think about that. Why do SO many people like him if he's supposedly that offensive? Why don't you just not support the Indians?

Now my team that I've grown up rooting for, the one that has had Chief Wahoo since the '40s, chose to cower to Manfred and the minority. I now lose the chance to see Chief Wahoo on the National Stage. Do you know how proud I and so many others were to see that smiling Indian in the World Series in 2016? I was a baby, but I don't think I've ever heard a story about people bitchin' and moanin' in the '90s when the Jake was sold out game after game for nearly a decade, Chief Wahoo on EVERYONE's person. I own ONE tshirt with the Block C, and that's because it has an American Flag in it (is that offensive because we took this land from he Native Americans?).

Additionally, you can't marginalize vintagetoppsguy for bringing up the Irish mascot for both the Celtics and Notre Dame. That's hypocritical. Or how about the following...

San Francisco Giants = offensive to little people
Minnesota Twins = offensive to only children, triplets, quintuplets, etc.
NY Yankees = offensive to the Dutch (didn't know that) and southerners; hell, as a northerner, I'm not sure I like being referred to as a Yankee
Tampa Bay Rays = what about the rest of the shark family?
Chicago Cubs = offensive to grown bears, plus the bear is brown; what about black bears, polar bears, etc.?
White Sox & Red Sox = what about blue sox, grey socks, black socks, green socks, yellow socks, etc.?
Kansas City Royals = offensive to people who aren't of royal blood
Oakland A's = an elephant on a circus ball is offensive, especially considering the Ringling Bros Circus or whatever was discontinued to people getting offended
Detroit Tigers = what about the rest of the cat family?
Philly Phanatic = what about lethargic fans?
Colorado Rockies = what about the Appalachian Mountains?
Arizona Diamondbacks = really, referring to rattlesnakes as diamondbacks... that's pretty offensive to them
Cardinals & Orioles = what about other birds?

I'll stick to just the MLB, and won't bring up the other offensive names in sports; I'm sure if I look hard enough, I could find something to be offended about with every single nickname/logo in sports. And how ridiculous the above seem, is how ridiculous the argument against Chief Wahoo is with very few of the outspoken minority against Chief Wahoo being Native American (from what I've seen/heard).

Keep the Chief. You'll see me an thousands of others at games next year sporting nothing but Chief Wahoo gear.

And another sick angle to this: Manfred probably threatened to take away the 2019 All Star Game if Dolan kept Chief Wahoo.

Let me make sure I'm following your reasoning here.

If Indians is offensive to Indians and Irish is offensive to the Irish, then the other names must be offensive to the groups that they do not refer to. That's so stupid it's brilliant. And yet somehow manages to be the most reasonable component of your argument.

[vintagetoppsguy]

It'll be interesting to see how many of you guys Leon decides to ban now.

LOL! How typical! Disagree with someone on the other side and you should be banned...shut up...not allowed to speak. I didn't see that one coming :rolleyes:

[darwinbulldog]

LOL! How typical! Disagree with someone on the other side and you should be banned...shut up...not allowed to speak. I didn't see that one coming :rolleyes:

Banning people for making political comments is Leon's rule. You can look it up. I'd actually prefer more political discussions. But it does put Leon in a difficult and interesting position when you get a thread like this where, depending on one's definition, anywhere from 10% to 50% of the posts are political.

[vintagetoppsguy]

When I was a kid growing up, we played Cowboys and Indians.

If you're in favor of banning the Chief Wahoo logo, then why not the Oklahoma State Cowboys logo? Seriously, what's the difference?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c5/Pistol_Pete.svg/626px-Pistol_Pete.svg.png

Or as I previously mentioned, the Boston Celtics logo? Why is it that you're only concerned with the minority groups getting offended? Sounds like a double standard to me.

[rainier2004]

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

Also, to correct an earlier assertion on this thread:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/1/29/16947888/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo

"Cleveland’s American League franchise adopted the nickname 'Indians' in 1915, after 14 years as the Blues, the Bronchos, or the Naps. The name was supposedly a tribute to Louis Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot tribe who had played for the crosstown Cleveland Spiders from 1897 to 1899. It’d be curious if the team was named for a player who appeared in 94 games for a different franchise nearly 20 years prior, and, sure enough, contemporary newspaper coverage shows that naming the team the 'Indians' was never intended as much of a tribute."

[KMayUSA6060]

Let me come at this from a different, less angry and aggressive angle.

What is offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo? Is it the red skin? If so, would it still be offensive if the Indians went back to their vintage Chief Wahoo?

[ronniehatesjazz]

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

So true, no one mutters the word redneck nowadays (perhaps not totally directed towards "cowboys" but basically is). Please man, this is the one group that it's totally okay to make fun of in society today and face no negative consequences. The white working class and particularly the types who take on a "country" persona are the scapegoats of the white upper middleclass and beyond. It really is disgusting that people can hold such views and not realize the hypocrisy. My angst is totally directed at you but just the overall mindset of this in general.

[darwinbulldog]

When I was a kid growing up, we played Cowboys and Indians.

If you're in favor of banning the Chief Wahoo logo, then why not the Oklahoma State Cowboys logo? Seriously, what's the difference?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c5/Pistol_Pete.svg/626px-Pistol_Pete.svg.png

Or as I previously mentioned, the Boston Celtics logo? Why is it that you're only concerned with the minority groups getting offended? Sounds like a double standard to me.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you want a sincere response. Here you go.

If our nation's cowboys have been systematically oppressed by the non-cowboys in political power and are hurt by their representation in logos with crude caricatures of them then certainly changing that logo would be a nice thing to do. Otherwise it's not causing any harm so it might as well be left alone. That is the standard I would propose for all of these cases -- not a double-standard, just a standard.

I am primarily Irish, so I'll go ahead and speak as a representative of that particular historically oppressed minority. Irish-Americans were already in power in Boston by the time that logo was created, and my guess is that's why it isn't upsetting to the community. It is a representation of their fan base rather than of some other minority group that could be caricatured for fun. Personally it bothers me that they pronounce it Seltics rather than Celtics, but at least the spelling of the name is fine.

If, on the other hand, you had an English soccer team in the 1800s named the Irish and using this mascot, that would be different with regards to the standard I mentioned in the first paragraph.

[frankbmd]

How about the CLEVELAND LAKE EFFECT with Snowflake cheerleaders and white pompoms everywhere?:)

If you thought the Indians were upset, wait until the concept of snowflakes in July sinks in with the goreables. :eek:

Come to think of it, this name change might be more appropriate for the Cleveland Browns???;)

[KMayUSA6060]

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

Debatable. What happened to the Native Americans was atrocious, more violent, and blatant, but comparisons can be drawn. Between government overreach, regulations, land grabs, etc., "cowboys" have been forced to socialize to an extent. I would definitely argue that they cannot live today as they did some time ago, with the constant war on the 2nd Amendment/firearms, regulations on farming, taxes, and land grabs. Look no further than the Bundy's and their dispute with the government land grab. Like I said, it's not as broad, violent, or blatant, but comparisons are there. I identify more as a "country" person, with lots of my friends sharing that in common. None of us find the term "redneck" as offensive, and actually use it quite often ourselves, despite its intended derogatory origins/nature. Maybe we should choose to find it offensive and raise hell?

The point of bringing up the Cowboys', Celtics', and Notre Dame logos is if we look hard enough, we can find offense in all aspects of life, regardless of demographic size.

By the way, how was it ok for Bomani Jones, or whatever the hell his name is from ESPN, to wear a Caucasians shirt in response to Chief Wahoo?

[btcarfagno]

From what I have read, the logo will still be available on merchandise in places like the team store, so it won't disappear completely.

I have mixed feelings on this one.

As a Libertarian, this seems to be an internal issue within the framework of major league baseball. If they feel the need to step in, that is a business decision and they are free to make it...letting any consequences be as they may based on free market forces (such as they are in America circa 2018 anyway). I am also all for any aggrieved group banding together of their own free will to try to have changes implemented that said group feels would be of benefit to them. More power to them.

As a person with some indigenous ancestry, I know that there are much larger issues facing the Native American population, much of which was forced upon them and has now metastasized into several generations of internal issues and generally poor decision making. I don't think it should be overly political to believe that offering sympathy and a hand up to them would be a good and humane idea for our fellow Americans. That said, if they feel that minor (in the grand scheme of things) issues such as this are worthy of their time and effort, I suppose I can get behind that. At the same time, with the myriad of other issues within their community, I also can't shake the feeling that some may be better served putting on their big boy and big girls pants and tackling some more important and fundamental issues to their longer term success as a people.

As a Pirates fan, we seem to change our logo about as often as a Kardashian rolls out a new product line. In that context, I can't really empathize with Cleveland fans who have had variations of the same logo for generations.

Basically I am all over the map on this one and have thoughts that both agree and disagree with pretty much everyone. Hell. I agree and disagree with my own thoughts on this.

Hope that clears this up for everyone then.

:rolleyes:

[darwinbulldog]

How about the CLEVELAND LAKE EFFECT with Snowflake cheerleaders and white pompoms everywhere?:)

If you thought the Indians were upset, wait until the concept of snowflakes in July sinks in with the goreables. :eek:

Come to think of it, this name change might be more appropriate for the Cleveland Browns???;)

Or in tribute to the great passenger steamships that brought base ball fans to the shores of Lake Erie to watch the franchise in its early years, perhaps the Cleveland Steamers.

[btcarfagno]

Or in tribute to the great passenger steamships that brought base ball fans to the shores of Lake Erie to watch the franchise in its early years, perhaps the Cleveland Steamers.


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

You just went there!!

Although the franchise certainly has earned that logo to be sure.

[Rookiemonster]

It’s not a perfect world. I doubt that all native Americans feel offended about this. I don’t think this helps native Americans with what they had happen to them. What if the renamed the team the Cleveland Natives and had a more friendly logo. That might be a more progressive move.

There are many many types of people that have these small racial issues that they put up with.
I’m a mixed person genetically I have Irish, Italian, and Romani ( gypsy ) on both sides.

Growing up I had to see kids come to school dress up a gypsys ! Would it be ok to see kids come to school dressed as Jews or Africans ? I think not !

I hear people say I got GYPED Alll the time which is very racist and it bothers me to hear it. But guess what, people say it like it’s nothing. Is it ok to say you got Jewed?

Do I lose sleep over this ? No, if it all stopped tomorrow would my life be better . Nope.

Forget about the Irish and Italian side of my family. It’s very common for people say something about either one as well. But it seems that only a select few get to the PC world protect them.

[z28jd]

As someone with native American blood, who has a bunch of older relatives who grew up with the person it all came from, I can tell you that not one of them are offended by these logos. They are proud of their family history. As many have mentioned with the Notre Dame symbol, these same people are half Irish and they have never been offended by that symbol, or the mascot, or the Celtics. They just don't get offended by team logos, especially not ones from a long time ago and they certainly aren't going to sit there and be told what offends them. If those people who grew up with that history and have twice as much Native American blood as I do don't care, then why should I try to find something that isn't there. The Indians and the Fighting Irish aren't sitting there spreading hate with those symbols and common sense people realize that.

I know where the names came from from for the teams and the history behind the symbols, so it doesn't bother me. Of course, no one in my family wakes up ready to find out what someone tells them to be offended over each day, so maybe those people with no ammo in the conversation should listen to those who do.

I personally don't care what they decide to do with it. Teams change logos all of the time. They could have changed it and not even given a reason.

[Orioles1954]

As someone with native American blood, who has a bunch of older relatives who grew up with the person it all came from, I can tell you that not one of them are offended by these logos. They are proud of their family history. As many have mentioned with the Notre Dame symbol, these same people are half Irish and they have never been offended by that symbol, or the mascot, or the Celtics. They just don't get offended by team logos, especially not ones from a long time ago and they certainly aren't going to sit there and be told what offends them. If those people who grew up with that history and have twice as much Native American blood as I do don't care, then why should I try to find something that isn't there. The Indians and the Fighting Irish aren't sitting there spreading hate with those symbols and common sense people realize that.

I know where the names came from from for the teams and the history behind the symbols, so it doesn't bother me. Of course, no one in my family wakes up ready to find out what someone tells them to be offended over each day, so maybe those people with no ammo in the conversation should listen to those who do.

I personally don't care what they decide to do with it. Teams change logos all of the time. They could have changed it and not even given a reason.


Makes no difference to me if 0.01% or 99.9% of group XYZ agrees with a logo or not. Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.

What is a good indicator of what's right or wrong? Just because you say it is?

[orly57]

So true, no one mutters the word redneck nowadays (perhaps not totally directed towards "cowboys" but basically is). Please man, this is the one group that it's totally okay to make fun of in society today and face no negative consequences. The white working class and particularly the types who take on a "country" persona are the scapegoats of the white upper middleclass and beyond. It really is disgusting that people can hold such views and not realize the hypocrisy. My angst is totally directed at you but just the overall mindset of this in general.

You are 100% right on this. It bothers me to no end when African American comedians mock white people and it's totally ok. I think that reverse racism is part of the reason that so many white men are angry at the PC Police. But that shouldn't blind us to the fact that it's not cool to make fun of other cultures...especially those with the ugly history that the native Americans have. They don't have the Jesse Jackson's of the world fighting for them, but it doesn't make them any less worthy of the same considerations as we give African Americans.

[cincyredlegs]

Makes no difference to me if 0.01% or 99.9% of group XYZ agrees with a logo or not. Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.


With societal issues, what's right or wrong is also a personal opinion. Typically changes take place when the majority of society decides to change it.

Now, a small minority of people are trying to make changes for the majority and if you don't agree with them you are vilified and condemned.

I would love to find the data that supports the majority of Cleveland, MLB fans or the US want to make this change or are offended by it.

[darwinbulldog]

Time for a card. I give you George Stovall, right-handed first baseman and the handsomest devil to ever don the Naps' grays.

[steve B]

However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.

Aaaaaaa-men!!

I'd scan and post some of the old anti-Irish cartoons, but I'd probably be banned.

[Orioles1954]

What is a good indicator of what's right or wrong? Just because you say it is?

My personal opinion is that the logo is wrong. The powers that be (for whatever reason) agree.

[steve B]

That one is actually rather tame compared to some I have in old magazines.


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you want a sincere response. Here you go.

If our nation's cowboys have been systematically oppressed by the non-cowboys in political power and are hurt by their representation in logos with crude caricatures of them then certainly changing that logo would be a nice thing to do. Otherwise it's not causing any harm so it might as well be left alone. That is the standard I would propose for all of these cases -- not a double-standard, just a standard.

I am primarily Irish, so I'll go ahead and speak as a representative of that particular historically oppressed minority. Irish-Americans were already in power in Boston by the time that logo was created, and my guess is that's why it isn't upsetting to the community. It is a representation of their fan base rather than of some other minority group that could be caricatured for fun. Personally it bothers me that they pronounce it Seltics rather than Celtics, but at least the spelling of the name is fine.

If, on the other hand, you had an English soccer team in the 1800s named the Irish and using this mascot, that would be different with regards to the standard I mentioned in the first paragraph.

[KMayUSA6060]

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

Let me come at this from a different, less angry and aggressive angle.

What is offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo? Is it the red skin? If so, would it still be offensive if the Indians went back to their vintage Chief Wahoo?

[darwinbulldog]

That one is actually rather tame compared to some I have in old magazines.

I don't own any of those magazines myself, but I took a history class on Irish immigration to the U.S. (from a professor who was an Irish immigrant to the U.S.), and I saw quite a few that semester that I would say make the one I posted look rather tame.

[darwinbulldog]

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

[KMayUSA6060]

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

If it's not the color OR the shape, then what's offensive about it?

[Snapolit1]

With societal issues, what's right or wrong is also a personal opinion. Typically changes take place when the majority of society decides to change it.

Now, a small minority of people are trying to make changes for the majority and if you don't agree with them you are vilified and condemned.

I would love to find the data that supports the majority of Cleveland, MLB fans or the US want to make this change or are offended by it.

A stunning percentage of white Americans had no problem at all with the barriers put in place for decades to block black folks from voting. A clear majority of whites also thought that it was perfectly fine that white and black people couldn't marry. In fact could serve jail time for it. Just a-ok with it. Clear majority of whites couldn't possibly see what the issue was. Couple of trouble makers kicked up some crap (probably "snowflakes" in today's parlance) and had the laws changes. Always a small group of troublemakers trying to impose "their subjective beliefs" on others. Thankfully.

[Big Six]

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.



To your way of thinking, though, the Cowboys are largely responsible for what happened to the Indians, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bpm0014]

I'd scan and post some of the old anti-Irish cartoons, but I'd probably be banned.

I'm almost full Irish and it wouldn't bother me one bit. I know what my ancestors went through when they arrived here. They were (almost) the lowest of the low at one time. But the Irish have a great sense of humor; almost morbid at times.

[darwinbulldog]

If it's not the color OR the shape, then what's offensive about it?

I suppose capitalization is clearer than italics. The answer you're looking for is "the color AND the shape."

[KMayUSA6060]

I suppose capitalization is clearer than italics. The answer you're looking for is "the color AND the shape."

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

[Louieman]

My two cents, glad to see it removed. These discussions are meant to be complicated and nuanced, and it's something we need way more of, instead of the sensationalism-driven shouting match you see on the news. The way I see it, it's the least that can be done, given the history of how the Natives were treated from Columbus onward. It's not going to do much, but it's the right thing to do and it helps just a little bit.

I generally believe that those who see this as a pc issue or as something irksome to their livelihood are most likely coming from a place where you have the privilege to see it like that. For many minorities, the effects of oppression are experienced daily, where it smacks you in the face. It's not subtle. More importantly, it's ingrained within the history and the institution of the country itself, where to this day this oppression persists. Take for example, housing value appropriation.

But this is not to say that if you're a middle class middle aged white male, your life isn't hard. That's not what Black Lives Matter or protesters who point out Chief Wahoo are trying to do. It's about exposing the actual history behind how things came to be in this country, and when you consider that history and see what brought it to this point, it is important to expose it and point it out, so that we do something about it to change it for the better. Because I honestly think if people could see that story, they'd be happy to help improve things.

[mechanicalman]

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

[darwinbulldog]

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

You have made two points worth repeating.

1) Because more than one logo exists it isn't possible for one of them to have more than one feature that is offensive. Got that, everyone?

2) The two logos below sport the same shape and skin color. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

[Jeffrompa]

I love it

[drcy]

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

I don't want to wade into this divisive debate, but I tend to agree with this point of view. Not that I profess to have any special philosophical or moral insight into this topic, and am a Nordic-American from the Midwest.

To be honest, I've found the lame mascots to be such as the Lions and Tigers in Detroit-- not only are there no lions and tigers in Michigan (sans Zoo), but they lack imagination. And, of course, there are the now geographical oxymorons such as the Los Angeles Lakers and Arizona Cardinals, which aren't lame so much as funny.

[Orioles1954]

I don't want to wade into this divisive debate, but I tend to agree with this point of view. Not that I profess to have any special philosophical or moral insight into this topic, and am a Nordic-American from the Midwest.

To be honest, I've found the lame mascots to be such as the Lions and Tigers in Detroit-- not only are there no lions and tigers in Michigan (sans Zoo), but they lack imagination. And, of course, there are the now geographical oxymorons such as the Los Angeles Lakers and Arizona Cardinals.

Or Utah Jazz...

[drcy]

The Cardinals, Jazz and Lakers have character due to their curiousness. I like those due to that.

I'm a U of Wisconsin alum, born and raised in Wisconsin, and saw just one badger in the wild my whole time there. Though if you read the history, the Badgers didn't directly come from the animal but from 1800s miners who badger-like dug holes.

My dad was a Minnesota alum and I'd tease him about the wimpy gopher mascot. "You have to have a manly mascot, like a badger or a wolverine." Though at least they have a lot of gophers in Minneapolis, and I suppose that large group of them could beat you up.

[KMayUSA6060]

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

Ok so it's the simple fact that it's a caricature that bothers you?

You have made two points worth repeating.

1) Because more than one logo exists it isn't possible for one of them to have more than one feature that is offensive. Got that, everyone?

2) The two logos below sport the same shape and skin color. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

1) Goodness. I was asking a question regarding what is actually offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo, using the old Chief Wahoo as a measuring stick since it has a different shape and skin color. All I've ever heard is the red color being the issue.

2) The Blackhawks = similar skin color to vintage Chief Wahoo. The Redskins = similar shape to vintage Chief Wahoo, particularly in the nose. So where's the outrage over those other logos?


Here's an interesting article on the subject. Yenyo, the Indian interviewed, says that this isn't far enough, that it should be removed immediately along with the nickname "Indians".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/01/29/cleveland-indians-will-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-from-uniforms-starting-in-2019/?utm_term=.0dd79c5c2364

[t206fix]

nevermind

[t206fix]

xxx

[Stampsfan]

As predicted, this has done nothing but go off the rails.

I am reminded of one of the most pathetic sights I ever have seen -- Jane Fonda doing the tomahawk chop.

I don't know why, especially today, we give any credibility to anyone in Hollywood. With the sh*t that has gone on there, especially lately, why anyone from that industry has any credibility is sad.

When Leonardo DiCaprio was up here filming The Revenant, we had a wind go through here over the Rockies called a "chinook". With it comes warm winds from the Pacific, and warms up our winter days, giving us tempertures into the 50's and 60's (F). This guy goes on to post how he's finally seen Global Warming up close. While his campaign to stop green house gas emissions, and to save the environment are admirable, he still flies around on his private jet using fuel that would otherwise not be emitted into the atmosphere.

Now lately on MSN, there is an article on the size of his yacht. How does he possibly power that?

I'm not here to defend or protest Global Warming; I get a bit rankled when Hollywood types spew their ignorant opinions (Jane Fonda too) and then leave a larger environmentally damaging footprint than the average person.

[t206fix]

xxx

[KMayUSA6060]

OK, I'll bite...

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like. Simple as that. How do I know?

This is my grandpa - a Pawnee Indian - from 1944 right before he served in WWII (the man to the right of the officer in blue). Kyle, does he look at all like the goofy-assed looking Indian in the Cleveland logo at all? He was a great man with a great smile, and it never looked like that dumb Chief Wahoo smile.

First of all, a big thank you to your grandpa for his service.

Second of all, he doesn't look like the Indians in the Seminoles', Blackhawks', Redskins', etc., logos, either. So where's the outrage over those?

Third of all, many people LOVE Chief Wahoo for his friendly smile. I've never heard it or him described as "goofy-assed".

[t206fix]

xxx

[t206fix]

xxx

[KMayUSA6060]

Or if you want a "vintage" Indian, why not choose a logo that is badass, like this one of Buffalo Bull (Pawnee, of course).

Can't. Doesn't look like your father, grandfather, or great grandmother. ;):rolleyes:

[KMayUSA6060]

This is my father (and grandfather) - a Pawnee/Shoshone Indian - from the early 80s. He died in 2000. He was a great man. Does he resemble Chief Wahoo in the slightest? What do you think real Indians look like?

I think they look like everything you've posted. I think there's a wide variety of what Native Americans look like, much like black people don't look the same, white people don't look the same, etc.

I guess I just have the ability to look at a caricature - something I've had done on myself and haven't been offended by - and separate it from reality and anything offensive. This goes back to my original post in this thread, which mentions how little credit you who oppose Chief Wahoo are giving those who like Chief Wahoo. Do you think we look at the logo and say, "look at that red-skinned Indian right there; boy does he sure make Native Americans look weird"? Hell no. Actually, I've never associated the color of Chief Wahoo to mean anything more than someone chose the color red because a red/white/blue color scheme is easy. As far as the shape, I was born in '94; when I was little Chief Wahoo was an easy logo to love as a kid because he's smiling and cartoonish. Never once did I think all Indians shared all of the features of Chief Wahoo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As predicted, this has done nothing but go off the rails.



I don't know why, especially today, we give any credibility to anyone in Hollywood. With the sh*t that has gone on there, especially lately, why anyone from that industry has any credibility is sad.

When Leonardo DiCaprio was up here filming The Revenant, we had a wind go through here over the Rockies called a "chinook". With it comes warm winds from the Pacific, and warms up our winter days, giving us tempertures into the 50's and 60's (F). This guy goes on to post how he's finally seen Global Warming up close. While his campaign to stop green house gas emissions, and to save the environment are admirable, he still flies around on his private jet using fuel that would otherwise not be emitted into the atmosphere.

Now lately on MSN, there is an article on the size of his yacht. How does he possibly power that?

I'm not here to defend or protest Global Warming; I get a bit rankled when Hollywood types spew their ignorant opinions (Jane Fonda too) and then leave a larger environmentally damaging footprint than the average person.

I once read an analysis of the carbon footprint left by Al Gore, it was hysterical.

[orly57]

Kyle, I love your passion for your team man, but it's a logo. They aren't moving your team to Baltimore. As mentioned previously, teams change logos all the time. You can love your team and still acknowledge that the caricature is insulting to a group of people whose land was taken, whose ancestors were slaughtered, and who were discriminated for centuries. This isn't about correctness, it's about common decency and respect for fellow Americans of a different heritage. My god, you have a fellow board member telling you it hurts him. Isnt that more important than a stupid logo?

[vintagetoppsguy]

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like.

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?

http://aaacaricatures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Jay-Leno-Caricature.jpg

This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

[KMayUSA6060]

Kyle, I love your passion for your team man, but it's a logo. They aren't moving your team to Baltimore. As mentioned previously, teams change logos all the time. You can love your team and still acknowledge that the caricature is insulting to a group of people whose land was taken, whose ancestors were slaughtered, and who were discriminated for centuries. This isn't about correctness, it's about common decency and respect for fellow Americans of a different heritage. My god, you have a fellow board member telling you it hurts him. Isnt that more important than a stupid logo?

And this is where the rules on the board prohibit further discussion. I can't go much further without getting political, which is where this discussion is at, so this is what I will end with.

I do not believe I have said anything disrespectful regarding Native Americans, or the fellow board member's heritage/family. I believe we are having a debate on a sports forum regarding a sports logo. If the logo is meaningless, why is it a big deal to those who want to get rid of it, since it's apparently stupid for me to care about a stupid logo? The same passion for those who want to get rid of it is shared by those who want to keep it. If I went through life worrying about everything little thing someone might take offense to, or what they might consider to be a microaggression, why leave my house? I know what my beliefs and morals are. I know the nature of my intentions. Believe me, if I was trying to be hurtful or disrespectful, you would know. I just think as a society we've become too soft, too quick to feel offended and react in favor of those who are offended. I'm sick and tired of being told how to think, what to believe, and what is or isn't morally right, when I know how to think for myself and I'm confident in the good nature of my beliefs and morals. I'm also sick and tired of society trying to erase history over some sort of guilt they feel.

[SAllen2556]

To be honest, I've found the lame mascots to be such as the Lions and Tigers in Detroit-- not only are there no lions and tigers in Michigan (sans Zoo), but they lack imagination. .

Watch it bub. Don't be rippin' on my Jungaleers. I'd rather be a Tiger than a Packer any day. Now if that's not the dumbest mascot ever, I don't know what is. :D

304065

[rainier2004]

To your way of thinking, though, the Cowboys are largely responsible for what happened to the Indians, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said that so no.

[smokelessjoe]

Walter Veach

1. Choctaw
2. Soldier / Code Talker
3. Base Ball Player
4. Hero

[chalupacollects]

As predicted, this has done nothing but go off the rails.



I don't know why, especially today, we give any credibility to anyone in Hollywood. With the sh*t that has gone on there, especially lately, why anyone from that industry has any credibility is sad.

When Leonardo DiCaprio was up here filming The Revenant, we had a wind go through here over the Rockies called a "chinook". With it comes warm winds from the Pacific, and warms up our winter days, giving us tempertures into the 50's and 60's (F). This guy goes on to post how he's finally seen Global Warming up close. While his campaign to stop green house gas emissions, and to save the environment are admirable, he still flies around on his private jet using fuel that would otherwise not be emitted into the atmosphere.

Now lately on MSN, there is an article on the size of his yacht. How does he possibly power that?

I'm not here to defend or protest Global Warming; I get a bit rankled when Hollywood types spew their ignorant opinions (Jane Fonda too) and then leave a larger environmentally damaging footprint than the average person.

+10000000 - Any and all Hollywood "activists" should really just stay silent and go away. Most of their thinking is that if they play to the greater good, everyone will like them and buy their entertainment making them rich beyond there dreams.. its not really that they care its a marketing ploy..

As for Leo, not only does Leo fly around in his $50 million dollar jet that seats 18, he usually only has a couple of people with him... his efforts on global warming are admirable though he should practice what he preaches. And that aircraft burns about 2500 gallons of fuel coast to coast... and he is not the only one in the Hollywood crowd doing that so... take their posturing for what its worth...

Sorry for the hijack...

[baseball tourist]

2) The Blackhawks = similar skin color to vintage Chief Wahoo. The Redskins = similar shape to vintage Chief Wahoo, particularly in the nose. So where's the outrage over those other logos?

The controversy over the Redskins name is actually quite robust.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-brief-history-of-the-word-redskin-and-how-it-became-a-source-of-controversy/2016/05/19/062cd618-187f-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html?utm_term=.c174493f604e

[seanofjapan]

Haven't read through this thread in its entirety but just skimming through it I'm surprised by the amount of irrelevant political talking points have been thrown in (why is there a whole page talking about climate change in a thread purportedly about a baseball team logo????)

[steve B]

Haven't read through this thread in its entirety but just skimming through it I'm surprised by the amount of irrelevant political talking points have been thrown in (why is there a whole page talking about climate change in a thread purportedly about a baseball team logo????)

Well..... a lot of hot air is being released discussing it elsewhere I'm sure.

[KMayUSA6060]

The controversy over the Redskins name is actually quite robust.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-brief-history-of-the-word-redskin-and-how-it-became-a-source-of-controversy/2016/05/19/062cd618-187f-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html?utm_term=.c174493f604e

That's about the name, not the logo. It was mentioned that a supposed issue with the Chief Wahoo logo is that it isn't what Native Americans look like. The Redskins logo doesn't look like all Native Americans either, which is the point I was trying to make. Their name is an entirely separate issue.

[Stampsfan]

Haven't read through this thread in its entirety but just skimming through it I'm surprised by the amount of irrelevant political talking points have been thrown in (why is there a whole page talking about climate change in a thread purportedly about a baseball team logo????)

Two reasons for me:

1. It was in reference to Jane Fonda doing the tomahawk chop, and why we give the Hollywood folks any credence in (almost ) any discussion.

2. In a small way, to attempt to deflect the discussion and limit the vitriolic comments going back and forth among us.

Hope this clarifies for you.

[Mark70Z]

Opinion: I’m fairly sure the Indians name and mascot were designed to be a good thing and not designed to be offensive. Just because some take offense to it doesn’t necessarily mean it should be removed. What’s the ultimate goal? Remove the charicarure, then I’m sure next will be the Indians name, correct? Where does the political correctness stop? If I was an Indians fan I’d be upset about it that’s for sure.

I’m sure some people are offended that I go to church or that the church exists. That’s fine; I’m still going...

[timn1]

What does your going to church have to do with the Indians logo?? That is the weirdest and worst argument I've seen yet in this train-wreck of a thread.

Your analogy is ridiculous. No one could care less whether you go to church or not.

But if you got your church to adopt a slogan like "Atheists-goin'-to-Hell" and a logo that portrayed atheists as badly as Chief Wahoo portrays Native Americans, and then sold caps and T-shirts with that logo to every member of the church, then you would be doing something that was offensive to a particular group of people, and they would be reasonable in asking you to stop doing it. Why is that so hard to grasp?


Opinion: I’m fairly sure the Indians name and mascot were designed to be a good thing and not designed to be offensive. Just because some take offense to it doesn’t necessarily mean it should be removed. What’s the ultimate goal? Remove the charicarure, then I’m sure next will be the Indians name, correct? Where does the political correctness stop? If I was an Indians fan I’d be upset about it that’s for sure.

I’m sure some people are offended that I go to church or that the church exists. That’s fine; I’m still going...

[rainier2004]

Opinion: I’m fairly sure the Indians name and mascot were designed to be a good thing and not designed to be offensive. Just because some take offense to it doesn’t necessarily mean it should be removed.

Are you sure about that or was little thought put into it t begin with? Why wouldn't you remove it "just b/c some take offense"? Its not about PC, its just about respect.

[Orioles1954]

I'm in the camp of remove the logo and keep the name.

[vintagetoppsguy]

then you would be doing something that was offensive to a particular group of people, and they would be reasonable in asking you to stop doing it.

its just about respect.

You two keep throwing around words like "offensive" and "respect", but only when it fits your ideals. As a veteran, Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem offends me and a large group of the population and we think it's disrespectful, but people like you defend his right to do so.

I realize the situations are totally different, but they're also the same in that he's (Kaepernick) doing the very same thing (offending and disrespecting) to a group of people that you're claiming Chief Wahoo does. Native Americans only represent 2% of the population. Do you think more than 2% of the population is disrespected and offended by Kaepernick kneeling?

[rainier2004]

So David, removing the logo is offensive and/or disrespectful to you? Please explain.

[vintagetoppsguy]

So David, removing the logo is offensive and/or disrespectful to you? Please explain.

Re-read my posts. I have made my opinion well known.

So Steven, you think Kaepernick has the right to offend and disrespect a large percentage of the population?

[rainier2004]

Re-read my posts. I have made my opinion well known.

So Steven, you think Kaepernick has the right to offend and disrespect a large percentage of the population?

Ive never commented on that and this thread isn't about that. Don't put words into my mouth. You have no idea of my military background, experience or anything else. And quite frankly, its none of your business.

[KMayUSA6060]

Are you sure about that or was little thought put into it t begin with? Why wouldn't you remove it "just b/c some take offense"? Its not about PC, its just about respect.

Why don't you ask the creator of Chief Wahoo, who passed just this past December. The logo was literally created to show happiness and inclusion into the Cleveland community.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/04/14/creator-cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo-it-was-never-meant-to-offend.html

[vintagetoppsguy]

Ive never commented on that and this thread isn't about that. Don't put words into my mouth. You have no idea of my military background, experience or anything else. And quite frankly, its none of your business.

As arrogant as you are, it's not about YOU!

Let me try this another way. Why does Kaepernick have the right to offend and disrespect, but Chief Wahoo doesn't?

[rainier2004]

As arrogant as you are, it's not about YOU!

You asked me a direct question asshole and I answered. Ive also watched you spread your conservative BS on n54 for a long time not willing to listen to others opinions without being attacking and personal. You're an embarrassment to anyone that calls themselves an American and at some point you need to learn that others opinions matter as well and that doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You asked me a direct question asshole and I answered. Ive also watched you spread your conservative BS on n54 for a long time not willing to listen to others opinions without being attacking and personal. You're an embarrassment to anyone that calls themselves an American and at some point you need to learn that others opinions matter as well and that doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

Typical of your side. Call names when you can't use logic. Have a good night, snowflake.

[rainier2004]

Typical of your side. Call names when you can't use logic. Have a good night, snowflake.

ANd have fun struggling with your own insecurities buttercup.

[KMayUSA6060]

You asked me a direct question asshole and I answered. Ive also watched you spread your conservative BS on n54 for a long time not willing to listen to others opinions without being attacking and personal. You're an embarrassment to anyone that calls themselves an American and at some point you need to learn that others opinions matter as well and that doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

Easy there bud.

Now, back to one of your posts. Did you see what the creator of Chief Wahoo said about the original intentions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?

http://aaacaricatures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Jay-Leno-Caricature.jpg

This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

Big difference between caricaturing an individual public figure and a whole group/race.

[Mark70Z]

Are you sure about that or was little thought put into it t begin with? Why wouldn't you remove it "just b/c some take offense"? Its not about PC, its just about respect.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Also, it sounded like, in another of your responses, that you think conservativism is not your cup of tea (you chose to use different phraseology); why don’t you respect their views and values? “It’s just about respect”, correct?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Big difference between caricaturing an individual public figure and a whole group/race.

Sure :D

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LsbBfVYeqTM/hqdefault.jpg

[barrysloate]

Would anybody care if the New York Jets or the Pittsburgh Penguins wanted to change their logos? It wouldn't elicit a peep from anyone. Companies change their logos all the time to make them more current or to improve their look.

I'm not personally offended by Chief Wahoo. Fact is, I don't care one way or the other if it stays or goes. But it's kind of old-fashioned and could definitely stand an updating. But because changing it touches on subjects like racism and political correctness, it's gotten everyone in a dizzy. It's just another sign of what's wrong with America today. The logo is just a minor part of it.

This thread has turned into a cesspool and I hate all the insulting, especially the word snowflake. Now that I find offensive. Doesn't anyone know how to have a dialogue anymore?

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!

[Orioles1954]

Would anybody care if the New York Jets or the Pittsburgh Penguins wanted to change their logos? It wouldn't elicit a peep from anyone. Companies change their logos all the time to make them more current or to improve their look.

I'm not personally offended by Chief Wahoo. Fact is, I don't care one way or the other if it stays or goes. But it's kind of old-fashioned and could definitely stand an updating. But because changing it touches on subjects like racism and political correctness, it's gotten everyone in a dizzy. It's just another sign of what's wrong with America today. The logo is just a minor part of it.

This thread has turned into a cesspool and I hate all the insulting, especially the word snowflake. Now that I find offensive. Doesn't anyone know how to have a dialogue anymore?

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!


Social media has made intelligent dialogue an almost impossible proposition.

[KMayUSA6060]

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!

Thank you, thank you. Argue with humor, and always keep em laughing. :cool:

[Blackie]

delete......please remove Leon ......

[Orioles1954]

Can we please end this thread now?

[barrysloate]

Thank you, thank you. Argue with humor, and always keep em laughing. :cool:

I wish I wrote that line.:o But you're right, sometimes we all just need to lighten up a little. And we'll all get along better, too.

[mattsey9]

Can we please end this thread now?

This.

[prewarsports]

Just turn the logo into a silhouette of Louis Sockalexis in a batting pose and we can all be happy :)

[timn1]

Leon, whether you end the thread or not, you should remove this post. Tthis guy has crossed any and all lines. Nothing else in the thread (even though I argued with some of it) has been anything like this. Doesn’t belong here.

Tim

I am native american and registered out of Oklahoma.......its very sad. Must be some democratic bull crap.......im not offended at all. If anything very proud of my heritage. The state of the union right now is depressing be it that liberals and snow flakes have paid to have the voice on the Communist news network CNN etc. The economy is better than ever and still CLOWNS like Nancy "i just pissed my pants" Pelosi have a say...........very sad. America wake up. Stand for the flag and knee for the Cross. Just my 10 cents but im a combat vet so im gonna say what i want.

[KMayUSA6060]

Just turn the logo into a silhouette of Louis Sockalexis in a batting pose and we can all be happy :)

Can't. Not all Native Americans look like Louis Sockalexis.


On another note, here are some of the latest articles regarding the issue from the pretty average Cleveland.com. I'm very surprised by Hoynsie's piece. I don't think he should be defending Dolan (Dolan is not only spineless, but he lied to the fan base these past couple of years), but I'm glad he goes after Manfred.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2018/01/cleveland_indians_chief_wahoo_1.html

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/cleveland_indians_chief_wahoo_paul_dolan.html

[slidekellyslide]

Typical of your side. Call names when you can't use logic. Have a good night, snowflake.

Irony meters exploding everywhere.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Irony meters exploding everywhere.

'Ol "Tin Badge" Bretta decided to chime in with nothing useful to say as usual.

[Blackie]

Leon, whether you end the thread or not, you should remove this post. Tthis guy has crossed any and all lines. Nothing else in the thread (even though I argued with some of it) has been anything like this. Doesn’t belong here.

Tim

Post removed Tim...........wishes granted.

[Leon]

Leon, whether you end the thread or not, you should remove this post. Tthis guy has crossed any and all lines. Nothing else in the thread (even though I argued with some of it) has been anything like this. Doesn’t belong here.

Tim

Just in for the evening. I agree Tim.
Blackie (hi Blackie) has deleted his message. He knows not to talk politics. If you delete your quoting it we are back to square one. I think he let his feelings get ahold of him.
Blackie has been a really great member and this would have been an infraction. Since he removed it we'll make it an informal warning and move on. I am a second chance kind of guy.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

"America wake up. Stand for the flag and kneel for cross."

I'm Jewish. Do I have to kneel for the cross?

[Leon]

Line in the Sand.... Anymore politics or religious talk in this thread and it's not going to be a good thing for whomever does it.

[pariah1107]

Net54 is no longer an apolitical site. Good luck in all future endeavors collectors.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

This thread has gone too long without cards! Ok, so they are football. Only photos of cards on my phone.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/c55d62080a9bb71fc510bb2b157bbb10.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[orly57]

You two keep throwing around words like "offensive" and "respect", but only when it fits your ideals. As a veteran, Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem offends me and a large group of the population and we think it's disrespectful, but people like you defend his right to do so.

I realize the situations are totally different, but they're also the same in that he's (Kaepernick) doing the very same thing (offending and disrespecting) to a group of people that you're claiming Chief Wahoo does. Native Americans only represent 2% of the population. Do you think more than 2% of the population is disrespected and offended by Kaepernick kneeling?

David, Kaepernick kneeling was an example of an INDIVIDUAL expressing his right to free speech. His exercising that right offended enough people that he is currently unemployed. So it appears that the people he offended won that standoff. Now, some of the same people offended by Kaepernick, are calling others "snowflakes" for being offended by the Indian caricature.
A logo is neither speech, nor is it an expression from an individual. It is an image that represents a major league franchise. This logo is not a free speech issue.
When Kaepernick knelt, I didn't like it, but defended his right to free speech. I was not surprised or angered that he lost his job. The right to free speech protects you from GOVERNMENT action, but your employer doesn't have to put up with it. If The Indians or MLB have made a business decision, and chose to change a logo that could be viewed by some as racist, then they are as much in their rights to do it as the NFL and its execs were in blackballing Kaepernick.

[JollyElm]

Good timing. Just got my tickets for an upcoming game...

304157


And let me chime in by asking where does it end?? A couple of weeks ago I was on line waiting to order when some frickin' little snowflake d-bag twat looked up from his phone and snarkily said, "That's rude. Cultural appropriation." You know what he was referring to?? My throwback Buffalo Bills hat. It has the silhouette of a buffalo on it. Since I had no clue what he was talking about, I said, "What??" He pointed at my hat and said it was offensive to Native Americans. Let me reiterate, a graphic of a bison in silhouette is offensive. Never has the term 'snowflake' been more apt than here. I took my cap off to look at, because quite frankly, I was dumbfounded as to what this idiot was talking about. When I realized what the 'issue' was, I put the hat back on and got right in his f_cking face and went bananas on him. What a little, sniveling tool. As I quite loudly 'explained' that Buffalo is the name of an effin' city in Western New York and it has nothing to do with Indians or their culture, I told this, I assume, college student to go back to the classroom and continue being indoctrinated by 'professors' shoving dumbass terms like 'cultural appropriation' down his throat. Yeah, you're going to go far in life, little boy. Man, I am lucky I didn't end up in jail. The best part was a couple of people on line (one a 49'ers fan who told me she hates Buff) smiling after the pathetic worm quickly bolted, telling me, "Way to go!!"

Again, where does it end??

[prewarsports]

In regards to using an image of Louis Sockalexis.... he is the one they named the team after so he only has to represent himself, not all Indians.

[orly57]

I'm with you man. Guys who cry wolf on every issue really steal credibility from the valid ones. That's a huge part of the problem.

[KMayUSA6060]

Ha! Snowflake Field. Is that the field the Indians and Twins are playing on when they travel to Puerto Rico this year.

[Leon]

Hey guys
Let's get back to baseball cards. *I probably shouldn't have let this thread go but it went. :). All i want is world peace and harmony. Should be pretty easy....thanks everyone.

http://luckeycards.com/pt209landgraff.jpg