100th anniversary of Black Sox Scandal next year.... time to let them into the Hall?

[Topnotchsy]

I've been thinking that it would be pretty cool on the 100th anniversary of the Black Sox scandal; to consider opening the Hall to Joe Jackson.

The way I see it:
1) While I'm not an expert on the subject but it seems as if there is at least a reasonable discussion about whether Jackson's play was at all compromised in the Series
2) Long after the player's have passed on, it is no longer a punishment for the players. At this point, I feel like for baseball and baseball history, Jackson should be in the Hall.

Anyone agree?

[keithsky]

I agree. If they let in steroid cheaters no reason Jackson and Rose should not be in.

[Jason]

I think that would be great but im skeptic that it will happen. I would at the least like to see him have a official review like Rose did. I think 100 years is long enough for the purported crime.

[conor912]

Would love to see it, but they'll never consider putting Joe in until Rose is dead. If they put him in while Rose is still alive, he'd be up the HOF's ass mercilessly and they don't want to give him the satisfaction.

[clydepepper]

I can't say I'd be in favor of any of them ever being in...even if the Black Sox have some sympathetic figures (i.e.Jackson;Weaver)...it would be an insult to all those who didn't cheat or throw games.

IMO

Being a HOFer isn't a birthright and it isn't something you can attain just through numbers...rose, bonds, and Clemens all believe they were better than the game itself...and they were not!

[Rascal1010]

With legalized sports gambling on the legislative agenda's in a lot of states right now, and more than likely will be legal nationwide within the next 5 years, I don't ever see the Baseball Hall of Fame ever saying it's OK for any player to fix a game or games, much less a World Series. I wouldn't be surprised within the next 20 years we don't actually see more players receive "lifetime" bans for fixing games if we do in fact see legalized sports gambling. The "lifetime" ban has to remain in effect and in full force as a deterrent, or they are just saying fixing games isn't that big of a deal.

Personally, I think Joe Jackson should be in the Hall of Fame, but the fact still remains that he did conspire to throw a World Series. It doesn't matter if he actually took money or not, what his batting average in the Series was, the bottom line is he was a member of a "conspiracy" to fix games for gamblers, and for that he was banned from the game for life.

[clydepepper]

With legalized sports gambling on the legislative agenda's in a lot of states right now, and more than likely will be legal nationwide within the next 5 years, I don't ever see the Baseball Hall of Fame ever saying it's OK for any player to fix a game or games, much less a World Series. I wouldn't be surprised within the next 20 years we don't actually see more players receive "lifetime" bans for fixing games if we do in fact see legalized sports gambling. The "lifetime" ban has to remain in effect and in full force as a deterrent, or they are just saying fixing games isn't that big of a deal.

Personally, I think Joe Jackson should be in the Hall of Fame, but the fact still remains that he did conspire to throw a World Series. It doesn't matter if he actually took money or not, what his batting average in the Series was, the bottom line is he was a member of a "conspiracy" to fix games for gamblers, and for that he was banned from the game for life.


Steve- I don't think you're directing your comments correctly. The reason for Rose's ban is not because he bet on Baseball games, but that he bet on Baseball games on which he had inside information (injuries) or could take action (lineup changes) which could determine the outcome of those games.


I can see, regretfully, a time in the future when Baseball players are allowed to bet on games, but only with absolutely strict limitations on which games would be involved.

[conor912]

The "lifetime" ban has to remain in effect and in full force as a deterrent, or they are just saying fixing games isn't that big of a deal.

Sure, a "lifetime" ban. His lifetime is over. Let him in, IMO.

[darwinbulldog]

MLB should get to decide who gets banned from MLB but not who gets banned from the Hall of Fame.

I'd put Joe in.

[Rascal1010]

Steve- I don't think you're directing your comments correctly. The reason for Rose's ban is not because he bet on Baseball games, but that he bet on Baseball games on which he had inside information (injuries) or could take action (lineup changes) which could determine the outcome of those games.


I can see, regretfully, a time in the future when Baseball players are allowed to bet on games, but only with absolutely strict limitations on which games would be involved.

I was not addressing Pete Rose and why he was banned for life, I was only addressing the "Black Sox" and Joe Jackson in particular. The "Black Sox" did conspire with gamblers, some or part of the group did accept payment from the gamblers, and all that were "linked" to the conspiracy were given lifetime bans from the game of baseball.

What Pete Rose did was an entirely different situation, some would say not nearly as bad as throwing games, but at the end of the day MLB doesn't draw a clear set of distinctions between the two crimes against the game, but they are both lumped together punishable with a lifetime ban. At some point in time what Pete Rose did may be addressed differently in the rules, thus ending his ban.

Unfortunately, someday players may be allowed to bet on games, but I just don't see a day when the game of baseball makes it allowable for them to "conspire" to throw games, much less a World Series. I also do not foresee the Hall of Fame enshrining any of the involved Black Sox including Joe Jackson as not to remove any doubt that MLB and the Hall of Fame view what they did as one of the absolute worst crimes that was committed against the game of baseball. If throwing games is tolerable in any way shape or form in the game of baseball, then really what's the point of the game?

[timn1]

Is it weird that some of the community who want to let Shoeless Joe in are the same ones who want to keep marginal (but entirely honest as far as we know) players like Alan Trammell out? :eek:

Letting any of the dishonest Black Sox in would be a travesty to the HOF. However, Rose is a different kettle of fish, IMO.

I can't say I'd be in favor of any of them ever being in...even if the Black Sox have some sympathetic figures (i.e.Jackson;Weaver)...it would be an insult to all those who didn't cheat or throw games.

IMO

Being a HOFer isn't a birthright and it isn't something you can attain just through numbers...rose, bonds, and Clemens all believe they were better than the game itself...and they were not!

[shagrotn77]

I know he performed at an elite level in the 1919 WS, so if there truly is no evidence to suggest that Shoeless Joe threw games, and his only possible crime is not reporting the fix while it was going on, then I think it's time he gets the nod. Problem is, there probably is no way to know with certainty one way or the other at this point.

[jerrys]

All major league baseball club houses have a sign posted stating the rules of conduct.

Rule 21(d):

BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

It says permanently.

If Pete Rose was given a pass - added to his stats on his HOF plaque would be: As manager, guilty of betting on baseball games from the dugout during ball games.

On Jackson's plaque: Joe Jackson: Guilty of being a willing member of a conspiracy to fix World Series baseball games.

Honor with dishonor - contradictory - incompatible.

[Bigdaddy]

I agree completely. And I am a lifelong Cincinnati Reds fan. Pete even had a (slight) chance for redemption and he blew it. He continued to lie - to his biographer, to the commissioner, to the public - about the depths of his involvement with organized gambling.

Both are tragic figures and I even feel a bit of empathy for Joe. Pete, however, was the architect of his own undoing.

All major league baseball club houses have a sign posted stating the rules of conduct.

Rule 21(d):

BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

It says permanently.

If Pete Rose was given a pass - added to his stats on his HOF plaque would be: As manager, guilty of betting on baseball games from the dugout during ball games.

On Jackson's plaque: Joe Jackson: Guilty of being a willing member of a conspiracy to fix World Series baseball games.

Honor with dishonor - contradictory - incompatible.

[conor912]

All major league baseball club houses have a sign posted stating the rules of conduct.

Rule 21(d):

BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

It says permanently.

If Pete Rose was given a pass - added to his stats on his HOF plaque would be: As manager, guilty of betting on baseball games from the dugout during ball games.

On Jackson's plaque: Joe Jackson: Guilty of being a willing member of a conspiracy to fix World Series baseball games.

Honor with dishonor - contradictory - incompatible.

Obviously it was a known no-no, but were these signs and concrete rules/consequences in place in 1919, or did they come as a result of it? I honestly have no idea.

[sphere and ash]

I know he performed at an elite level in the 1919 WS, so if there truly is no evidence to suggest that Shoeless Joe threw games, and his only possible crime is not reporting the fix while it was going on, then I think it's time he gets the nod. Problem is, there probably is no way to know with certainty one way or the other at this point.

Jackson took a pillow case filled with $5,000. If he "performed at an elite level," it is because he left the dirty work to his co-conspirators, demonstrating that there is no honor among thieves. And the contention that he performed at an elite level is suspect. Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

[dealme]

I don't have much objection to allowing Jackson and Rose into the HOF. I would say that the one "benefit" of the whole controversy surrounding the situation is that it keeps vintage baseball in the discussion.

I believe that someone on this board had mentioned that when the Cubs won the WS in 2016, it would more or less eliminate the talk of 1908, which in essence eliminates one more link to baseball's past history. I was somewhat skeptical at first, I've come to agree with that point of view.

So while that alone should not weigh into whether or not Jackson or Rose end up in Cooperstown, I view the continued discussion and controversy around the issue as a plus for preservation of baseball history.

Mark

[packs]

Isn't their place in pop culture secured by Eight Men Out?

[hysell]

:mad: I would also point out this fact ! We have a HOF in the Halls, that had a hand in this too ! He would be the cheap ass owner of the Whitesox { Charles Comiskey } ! Who would hold players out of games, so they wouldn't get a chance at there bonus ? Think it was 1 or 2 of his ace pitchers, he done this , too , I'm not sure on the players though ? Eddie Cicotte was 1 of those pitchers , who also had a fine career, how many more years did he have in his tank ? Could he also put up more HOFer stats ? I've also heard that Ty Cobb & Tris Speaker were found to be betting, years later ? Is this true ? If so, why were they NOT taken out of the HOF ?:confused:

[Mark70Z]

Players made the choice and knew the consequences yet did it anyway. Lifetime ban was the consequence.

[irishdenny]

Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

[Tabe]

MLB should get to decide who gets banned from MLB but not who gets banned from the Hall of Fame.

I'd put Joe in.

MLB doesn't get to decide. The Hall for years had an informal policy barring banned players from being elected. They put the rule in writing to address the Pete Rose issue.

But, if they changed their minds tomorrow, the Hall could admit Joe Jackson and MLB couldn't do anything to stop it.

[orly57]

Cobb participated in a Detroit-Cleveland fix during the last week of the 1919 season, on Sept. 25, immediately before the Black Sox scandal. Cobb later conceded he was among the four players in on the fix, but refused to ackowledge the accusation he had agreed to bet $2,000 on the game. The evidence indicated otherwise, that Cobb was fudging.

The other players involved in the conspiracy were pitcher Dutch Leonard, Cobb`s Detroit teammate, and playing manager Tris Speaker and pitcher Smoky Joe Wood of Cleveland. There was no public knowledge of the fix until 1926, when letters written by Cobb and Wood were sold by Leonard to American League President Ban Johnson.

As fixes go (there were more than a dozen similar connivances in the early 1900s), it wasn`t much. At stake was third place. The White Sox had already won the pennant, and Cleveland had clinched second, with the Tigers and the Yankees battling for third. Although figures are not available, a third-place share was probably worth about $500 per player.

The Cleveland players, for whatever reasons, wanted Detroit, not New York, to finish third. And so the plot was hatched: The Indians would lose to the Tigers. Detroit won 9-5, but justice prevailed. The Yankees finished third, a half-game ahead of the Tigers.

Charles Alexander, in his exhaustive biography of Cobb, writes:

``Then, said Leonard, the four agreed that they might as well bet some money on the game. Cobb was to put up $2,000, Leonard $1,500 and Speaker and Wood $1,000 each. Cobb suggested a park attendant named Fred West would be a good man to place the bets. But because Detroit was a 10-7 favorite and because the local bookmakers were unwilling to handle so much money, West only managed to get down $600 against the bookmakers` $420 for three betting partners.``

So, like the steroid guys, it appears that we only take umbrage with those WHO GOT CAUGHT.

[conor912]

Players made the choice and knew the consequences yet did it anyway. Lifetime ban was the consequence.

Lifetime, not eternal.

[Brian Van Horn]

"100th anniversary of Black Sox Scandal next year.... time to let them into the Hall?"

Nope.

[darwinbulldog]

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

I learned about it via Ken Burns. Not sure what his source was, but you can start there and see if it leads back to a newspaper article or something.

[Jim65]

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

[MattyC]

Those who know baseball know Shoeless Joe was as good or better a ball player than several in the HOF now— stats and on field performance are facts; HOF voting is a subjective process. I've found that the degree to which something gets turned into $%!@ is directly proportionate to the amount of human opinion and subjectivity involved. When I want to browse through the history of the game's greats, I sit back and peruse Baseball Reference, not the Hall Of Fame. Much in the same way, I don't let TPGs tell me what card is best or reviewers tell me what programs, films, or books to read.

[packs]

I don't think Joe Jackson was all that much better than Harry Heilmann and it took Heilmann 20 years after he last played an MLB game to get in the Hall. In my opinion there was no guarantee he was getting in even with his career. In fact, I think the scandal was the best thing for his lasting relevance. No one has anything to say about Heilmann most of the time.

[hysell]

Thanks, Orlando nice piece ! Would seem WE have double standards in this matter, just like REAL LIFE ? I guess the apples don"t fall far from the tree, after all ?

[rats60]

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

So I take it that you don't want Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, A rod, etc. in the Hof. As far as Jackson, he never took money, set a record with 12 hits, was part of half of the Sox runs scored and made 0 errors. I don't see how he disgraced the game.

[sphere and ash]

[QUOTE=irishdenny;1743792]As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

[rats60]

[QUOTE=irishdenny;1743792]As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

So did he think the guy who hit .226 with 1 RBI and 2 runs scored was throwing the World Series too?

[parker1b2]

a nice read on Jackson.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm

From the article:
Myth: "Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to make his team lose the World Series."
The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming.

[Jim65]

So I take it that you don't want Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, A rod, etc. in the Hof..

No, I don't. Add Manny, Palmiero, McGwire and Sosa to that list.

[rats60]

a nice read on Jackson.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm

From the article:
Myth: "Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to make his team lose the World Series."
The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming.

If by overwhelming you mean zero. Jackson never received money to throw the Series. He was never part of any meeting. His only flaw was that his roommate was one of the key members of the fix who attempted to give Jackson some money after the fact which he refused.

If hitting .375 with 12 hits with 6 RBI and 5 Runs brings suspicion, what about the highest paid player on the team hitting .226 with 1 RBI and 2 Runs?

[packs]

If by overwhelming you mean zero. Jackson never received money to throw the Series. He was never part of any meeting. His only flaw was that his roommate was one of the key members of the fix who attempted to give Jackson some money after the fact which he refused.

If hitting .375 with 12 hits with 6 RBI and 5 Runs brings suspicion, what about the highest paid player on the team hitting .226 with 1 RBI and 2 Runs?


Sorry but Joe Jackson admitted in grand jury testimony that he received $5,000 out of the $20,000 promised to him. I don't know where you got those facts from. Here is the transcript from the testimony that was given by Jackson himself:

Q: Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A: They did.

Q: How much did they pay?

A: They promised me $20,000, and paid me $5,000.

Q: Who promised you the twenty thousand?

A: “Chick Gandil.

Q: Who is Chick Gandil?

A. He was their first baseman on the White Sox Club.

Q: Who paid you the $5,000?

A: Left Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/shoelessjoe.pdf

[joshuanip]

Speaking sophmorically, it’s hall of fame , not hall of infamy. I personally say no as a matter of precedence. Knowing they were giving up games a year after the series is now hall of fame worthy.

I wouldn’t want to be with my son looking at Cooperstown and telling my son this person intentionally stole bases like a schoolboy. You know who I’m talking about.

[rats60]

Sorry but Joe Jackson admitted in grand jury testimony that he received $5,000 out of the $20,000 promised to him. I don't know where you got those facts from. Here is the transcript from the testimony that was given by Jackson himself:

Q: Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A: They did.

Q: How much did they pay?

A: They promised me $20,000, and paid me $5,000.

Q: Who promised you the twenty thousand?

A: “Chick Gandil.

Q: Who is Chick Gandil?

A. He was their first baseman on the White Sox Club.

Q: Who paid you the $5,000?

A: Left Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/shoelessjoe.pdf

It is known that testimony was false. That story was created by Alfred Austrian, Charles Comiskey's attorney. Lefty Williams', who was part of the fix, story contradicts that testimony.

[packs]

It is known that testimony was false. That story was created by Alfred Austrian, Charles Comiskey's attorney. Lefty Williams', who was part of the fix, story contradicts that testimony.

False in what way? Joe Jackson gave the testimony in person.

[sphere and ash]

It is known that testimony was false. That story was created by Alfred Austrian, Charles Comiskey's attorney. Lefty Williams', who was part of the fix, story contradicts that testimony.

Your thesis is that Jackson perjured himself before a grand jury to make himself appear guilty when he was actually innocent?