Tobacco carton labels

[renoch01]

I had the opportunity to purchase a collection of tobacco packs, tins and odd ball items but came across several tobacco carton labels from the early 1900s through 50s. Some of these labels associated with both baseball and non sports cards but have no idea on value so any kind of help would be appreciated. Thanks

[Leon]

They are interesting but I am not sure any which have some relation coincide with our cards, as far as when produced. That said I am unfamiliar with those so could be mistaking. I know the packs a little better.

[renoch01]

I am with you Leon I know the packs this is first time I have seen the cartons paper.

[Leon]

I am with you Leon I know the packs this is first time I have seen the cartons paper.

About 4-6'ish stand out as recognizable brands and hopefully they pan out as the real McCoys....very cool for sure.

[renoch01]

I got unopened packs with cards still in them from his collection he had unopened packs going back to the 1870s.

[JohnP0621]

Show us some packs.

John P

[swarmee]

I got unopened packs with cards still in them from his collection he had unopened packs going back to the 1870s.

Then I'd recommend you call an auctionhouse about putting some lots together.

[renoch01]

The ones for sure is cross cut. High grade. Between the acts non sports these have 10 cent stamps and may the Omar, Hassan, Murad, Egyptian luxury the others are after the fact but cool. :). I screwed up and missed the Allen & Ginter Dixie unopened pack.

[renoch01]

Had these also related to cards I bought most of his museum items.

[rdwyer]

Dunno but the Phillip Morris, Tareyton, and Lucky Strike ones make me think they're 50's. (?)

[renoch01]

The box they came out of said 1900s 1910s 1920s and 30s-50s

[rdwyer]

I'm saying everything except the tobacco carton labels are pre 50's.

[MikeGarcia]

Dunno but the Phillip Morris, Tareyton, and Lucky Strike ones make me think they're 50's. (?)



.."Lucky Strike Green Goes To War" was a slogan explaining the change in pack paper color after Pearl Harbor ; something to do with importing dyes and inks...if memory serves....Jeez I'm old...

..

[renoch01]

Sorry rich some may be from the fifties but some are much older since I have the packs that match. Did Lenox print cigarettes in the 50s?

[rdwyer]

None of those tobacco carton labels are older than the 50's. Yes, they may have the same names as original T206 boxes, but I suspect they're reproductions. I've been around T206 boxes for 25 years, and never seen anything like your tobacco carton labels before. I've seen a carton of Mecca, and I think a Sweet Caporal, but they didn't look anything like yours. If what you have was real, it would be the find of the decade here.

[renoch01]

Lol so if you have not seen it must fake. So if you not seen God must be fake. This is from the collection of Joe Giesenhagen who wrote the book "The Collectors Guide to Vintage Cigarette Packs". I had the opportunity to purchase most of his collection.



These pics are only represent a small portion of what I bought.

[Tao_Moko]

Lol so if you have not seen it must fake. So if you not seen God must be fake. This is from the collection of Joe Giesenhagen who wrote the book "The Collectors Guide to Vintage Cigarette Packs". I had the opportunity to purchase most of his collection.



These pics are only represent a small portion of what I bought.

Wow man! That's a massive purchase. I can only imagine how much fun you're having going through these. Congratulations.

[renoch01]

Thank you. Here is a pack that may be the only one and is not fake it's going to North Carolina

[rdwyer]

Someone else chime in. They're not what he thinks they are. (tobacco carton labels)

[renoch01]

Rich yes some are from the 50s. The box said 1900s 10s 20s 30s-50s. So I am thinking they represent each of those decades and I do think most which I did not take pics of all are from the 40s and 50s. I used to own a baseball card shop in the mid 80s so yes I have been doing this a long time and this is the first I have seen of any of these. Apparently these are rare. Joe closed his museum down and I had the opportunity to buy most of his stuff he had been a collector for over 50 years.

[rdwyer]

If Joe thought those were 1910 cartons, he would've posted here years ago. They're reproductions. Get over it.

[renoch01]

Richard you are an idiot so think every person pushing eighty should be posting on Net54baseball. You really are ignorant as hell.

[bnorth]

Wow man! That's a massive purchase. I can only imagine how much fun you're having going through these. Congratulations.

+1 That is some very cool stuff. Really appreciate the pics and please add many more.:) I know nothing about any of it so no help, just like seeing new stuff.

[renoch01]

Thanks Ben, the sad thing if I post something richard has not seen it must be fake. The fact that he can't understand is no one can know or have seen everything. Have to feel bad for people like that.

[rdwyer]

Leon, I don't appreciate the name calling. Reprimand him.

[bnorth]

Thanks Ben, the sad thing if I post something richard has not seen it must be fake. The fact that he can't understand is no one can know or have seen everything. Have to feel bad for people like that.

Don't take it personal we do see a lot of fake crap on here. Richard is a good guy and is giving his honest opinion. Maybe he is right maybe he is wrong I don't know but I am sure he is not doing it to be an ass.

[renoch01]

Thanks Ben. Don't mind someone calling it fake but to continue with out proof and the only thing to go on is because they have not seen it so must be fake. They might not be real but Joe also has proofs of some of the company's along with a lot of one of a kind items THAT ARE REAL and going to high price buyers. I found these today while going through one of the boxes. I need more than have not seen and Joe pushing eighty would have posted here. I posted for information but they will be sent to experts to confirm.

[Leon]

Leon, I don't appreciate the name calling. Reprimand him.

It wasn't that big of a deal. Just move on to another thread. I doubt that renoch (hi Rich) will follow you around and give you a hard time. I have been doing this a few years too. I am undecided on some and some are obviously 40s and later. Some of the designs are similar to contemporary packs the cards came in but I also understand many tobacco packages were reproduced in subsequent decades from when they were first put out. (and had similar type designs but not exact)

ps...Rich - be nice.

[renoch01]

Ok Leon. Thanks :)

[Tao_Moko]

Would be a shame for this thread to get derailed by hurt feelings and tattle tales. It's a breath of fresh air to see something other than hyper linked ebay listings and tpg complaints. How about encouragimg more images and dialogue.

To the poster - What are your intentions with this collection? Are you going to auction, keep or sell off piece by piece?

[oaks1912]

The Giesenhagen book on Cigarette packs was a wonderful book for that hobby which came out about 20 years ago. It was not mass produced, and although there is likely some misinformation, by and large its a must have for any serious collector of cigarette packs. Much along the lines of the American Card Catalog, there are some errors and misleading information in that work. Giesenhagen was not a sports collector, so there would be no reason for him to come to net54 and share his stories with the very small percentage of sports collectors that have an interest in cigarette packs

[canjond]

Some of the tobacco carton labels are from the 1910s-20s and they are original. I have many of the same in my collection and I know where they were sourced from originally. They obviously don't carry the same value (or close to it) or "coolness" of the packs, but they are neat companion pieces.

- Jon

[renoch01]

Thank you Jon & Mark for the information. :)


Is there any place to find approximate values on these ?

[canjond]

Putting values on the carton labels are tough because you have a much more limited audience and they are only companion pieces. For example, I purchased my Tolstoi label identical to yours for about $25-$30 maybe 10 years ago, but I wouldn't think values changed all that much. They are cool, but it's not really something I'd expect to bring big bucks.

FWIW, I understand these originated with a man who worked with the US patent office who passed away many years ago (I don't want to disclose his name). A lot of his collection had the original entry dates on them from when they were registered. None of it walked out the door - he saved the items from the scrap heap after the registration samples were no longer needed or when there were multiples in the files.

(PS - Henry - if you're seeing this, is that your understanding as well?)

[renoch01]

Very interesting Jon thank you.

[Joe_G.]

What a surprise to find a thread full of cig packs on Net54. Thank you Rich for posting your recent pick-up as it is a joy to see.

Can you share what unopened packs date back to the 1870s. Most cigarettes were distributed in paper packs prior to 1886 and few have survived the test of time. Cigarettes were in their infancy in 1870s, would love to see a pack from this time. I like anything pre ATC merger (1890 & earlier), noticed a couple in your bunch that could be from 1880s. Did the collection include anything from Goodwin & Co. (Old Judge, Gypsy Queen, Dogs Head)? Again, thank you for what you've already shared.

[Joe_G.]

The ones for sure is cross cut. High grade. Between the acts non sports these have 10 cent stamps and may the Omar, Hassan, Murad, Egyptian luxury the others are after the fact but cool. :). I screwed up and missed the Allen & Ginter Dixie unopened pack.

Would this be the A&G Dixie pack? I recently picked this up although it was already opened with 10 old Chesterfield cigarettes inside (not the original cigarettes).

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=23159

Also, minor point, but the stamp with "10" on it is a tax stamp to show taxes were paid for sale of 10 cigarettes, not suggesting the pack is 10 cents. These tax stamps can help date the pack . . . The "Series of 1879" tax stamp was used from 1879 to 1883, the "Series of 1883" tax stamp was used from 1883 to 1893, and so on.

[renoch01]

Thanks Joe for the information and yes that pack or one like it was at his sale that I meant to buy but missed when picking out what I wanted....if you got that from Kansas City then it was from Joes collection....

[Mdmtx]

Thanks for all the great information in this thread. Some of you possess such great knowledge. Always fun to learn new things!

[renoch01]

Joe here are some of the older packs that I will be selling the 1898 Jefferson & the 1910 Queen Bess are full unopened packs. The rest are empties from 1901 to 1910 according to Joes labels but cool as hell :)

[canjond]

Joe - sorry but I'm the bidder who pushed you up in the Dixie (had I known it was you, I wouldn't have bid). I actually picked up the seller's unopened pack of Motor cigarettes.

[Joe_G.]

Hey Jon, looks like three of us had similar interest, I'm happy with the pack and price albeit more than I figured it would go for. Never a problem when bidding against each other, can't go wrong when everyone bids what it is worth to each.

[1880nonsports]

the flattened cartons appear to be 100% real without them in hand. They don't hold much value. There are some tangential BB related packs and such but far removed from those that actually could have held cards. The earliest packs he's shown aren't of much demand to most collectors.
As the OP has now come to realize - many of his 1930's - 1950's unopened material that he listed on the 'Bay has attracted solid attention. In fact - although I only collect pre-1920 stuff - I have a sideline of unopened major brand packs and tins collection 30's - 50's - but found quite a few packs he listed that tickled my graphic/subject genes and so I bid. Well I only ended up with 4 of the ones listed so far of the 20 or so I bid on - heavily outbid on Olympics, planes, trains, and automobiles :-). Happy to see a few more people taking interest in this form of ephemera. Competition is at times the seed of further discovery.
I did take notice of an early pack shown above that raised some questions - but I've learned to look and think again before broaching the subject publically.

[renoch01]

Thanks for the bids and keep them coming. I am learning more and more each day on these cigarette packs, tins ect. Had no real knowledge while buying this just thought they were cool. Glad to know the carton labels are real. Was hoping I hit gold but looks like I struck nickel lol. Just wondering is the low prices on these is because know one really collects them or is there really a lot of them out there that keeps the price down? Maybe if I sell them I should have the buyer smoke the LSD cigarettes might get a higher price lol 😁

[RedsFan1941]

so just to be clear, the cartons that rdwyer said are reproductions are not, correct?

[renoch01]

That’s correct the carton labels are real not reproductions. 😎

[rdwyer]

Confused. Sweet Caporal were from Kinney Brothers. El Principe De gales were from Havana cigarettes, etc., etc. How is it that one company printed all these starting in 1909 and continued all the way to the 50's doing Lucky Strike and Tareyton? Doesn't make sense. Please explain Jon.

[renoch01]

Really Rich these are from multiple companies that Joe collected. These all have different paper stock also. The fact is they are real. So you can apologize now for your comments.

[rdwyer]

I'm not saying they're not real. Read my question. How is it multiple companies continue printing the carton labels to the 50's. This place is for learning. Please provide bigger scans of the T206 ones. I'd like to see what companies printed them. I suspect there is a common company doing most of them. Prove me wrong, instead of disrespecting me. I find it hard to believe that the same format of carton labels were done over and over to the 50's.

Check out these two images. They look more like a carton than yours.

[renoch01]

Disrespecting me really, have you reread your earlier post about how they are not real and everyone should chime in and say the same because you have not seen them before. I am sorry Rich but I have no respect for you right now it has to be earned. I think Leon told you to move on.

[rdwyer]

You brought up the OP. You asked for comments. I have every right to post my opinion. I don't think they were cartons used to distribute T206 related cigarette packs. I think they're something else. Let's hear from the experts and not you, who doesn't know crap about them to begin with. This is a place for learning.

[renoch01]

Rich you really are an idiot again which post did I mention anything about T206? If you read the post the experts have spoken about them being real. I asked a question and you quoted a false fact so you Rich you do not know crap.

[rdwyer]

I SAY AGAIN. I SAID THEY ARE REAL! But they're not cartons used to distribute cigarette packs back in 1909. Deal with it. That's why there not worth much. They're most likely fantasy pieces. Don't be an IDIOT and refuse to accept feedback on your question. No one has disputed anything I've said. except you. I emailed Jon Canfield, let's wait and see how he answers my question.

[Mdmtx]

If Joe thought those were 1910 cartons, he would've posted here years ago. They're reproductions. Get over it.


Mr. Dwyer,

I have to interject. You said they were reproductions in this post. If you would, please disconnect your keyboard. Adults have been talking.

Mark Medlin

[rdwyer]

Reproductions/fantasy pieces, but not Cartons. He said they were tobacco carton labels. They are not.

[Mdmtx]

Some of the tobacco carton labels are from the 1910s-20s and they are original. I have many of the same in my collection and I know where they were sourced from originally. They obviously don't carry the same value (or close to it) or "coolness" of the packs, but they are neat companion pieces.

- Jon

Mr. Dwyer,

Please disconnect your keyboard as I requested. Mr. Canfield has the opinion that they are original tobacco carton labels. My best advice to is an old saying “it is better to be quiet and just look stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”.

Mark Medlin

[renoch01]

Rich I have to feel sorry for you because after dealing with you for the first time there is no way anyone can believe anything you say along with have any respect for you. You can’t even read the post in the thread you are posting in. You need to change hobbies.

[Leon]

Reproductions/fantasy pieces, but not Cartons. He said they were tobacco carton labels. They are not.

I politely disagree. I think they will all turn out to be real and some will be period to our cards and some not. In looking at them more, some of the "labels" in the first post look like flattened cartons and not labels. I would like to see them in hand but I don't have any doubts all are real, at this point. To each their own I guess. I would still like to see them in hand to get a better feel for what they are. But the valuations not being high is because of the demand side of the equation. There is demand it's just not expensive demand :). I thought a lot of my tobacciana collection sale, from a few years ago, would go higher but most went for about what I paid. Some of the pieces were unique but still didn't bring more than a few hundred dollars. (and some even less)

[canjond]

I'm a bit confused by the posts but again, the carton labels posted above, in my opinion, are original and span many decades, but some are definately from the teens (Lenox and Tolstoi to name 2 of them). As I mentioned above, I understand most of these came to the hobby from the registration files at the US Patent and Trademark Office. Here is my Tolstoi, for example, that came directly from the gentleman I believe Joe got his from.