PWCC I want to bid but.... I just can't!

[danmckee]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-Pancho-Herrera-HERRER-ERROR-433-PSA-2-GD-PWCC/401397223291?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-Pancho-Herrera-HERRER-ERROR-433-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC/142496376187?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649

Look at the percentages of bids of the top 3 bidders of each of these auctions with this seller.....

NO THANKS!

[Fistner10]

I'm with ya, will never do it. Especially out of principle

[vintagetoppsguy]

It's been a couple weeks since we've had a PWCC thread. I guess we were overdue :rolleyes:

[bnorth]

It's been a couple weeks since we've had a PWCC thread. I guess we were overdue :rolleyes:

LOL,but it has been a very long time since we had a Probstein thread. Rick should send PWCC a very nicely worded thank you card. He should send Betsy a huge check for all her help. The BS letter PWCC posted all over the net and Betsy making BS excuses has taken all the heat off Rick.

[Kenny Cole]

It's been a couple weeks since we've had a PWCC thread. I guess we were overdue :rolleyes:

The very fact that the issue comes up over and over again pretty much emphasizes the problem IMO.

[Snapolit1]

80% of my bids on eBay are prob with PWCC. I just don't see the higher grade cards on eBay very often I am looking for. Except the ones that are BINs in the stratosphere. I've bought Gehrig and Ruth's with PWCC at mid grade higher than 1s and As that have been sitting for years with bloated BINs.
I guess I am part of the problem.

[mantlefan]

Feel the Force, Dan. Don't do it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

80% of my bids on eBay are prob with PWCC. I just don't see the higher grade cards on eBay very often I am looking for. Except the ones that are BINs in the stratosphere. I've bought Gehrig and Ruth's with PWCC at mid grade higher than 1s and As that have been sitting for years with bloated BINs.
I guess I am part of the problem.

Stuff trumps all, eh?

[irv]

The 26 bid retraction guy, which is supposedly against PWCC rules, won this Mantle card.
Take a look at his bidding percentage as well. I wonder if any money will be exchanging hands for this card?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/142495163127?nma=true&si=%252F5ZYMWTEk%252FFiGdakjFMjwotUeRE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Forget PWCC, I HATE the fact that this printing issue has been legitimized. Almost as bad as the Gene Bakep.

[Snapolit1]

Stuff trumps all, eh?

If I need a card and can get it for what I think is a good price, why do I care one whit what other people's motives are?

I assume there is just as much if not more fraud in most AH auctions. The only difference is you have a bit more transparency in eBay auctions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I need a card and can get it for what I think is a good price, why do I care one whit what other people's motives are?

I assume there is just as much if not more fraud in most AH auctions. The only difference is you have a bit more transparency in eBay auctions.

Just observing, not judging, but there in a microcosm is why nothing will ever change in the hobby.

[Snapolit1]

Nothing will change because people are people. Many people will scheme and defraud. Not all of them. Is like trying to do away with insider stock trading. You could prosecute 100 people a day and people will try to do it. Or insurance fraud. Not everyone is a dishonest person but many are. Not sure why anyone would think baseball card collecting would be any different. Seems like auctions in any area run the risk of a lot of fraud.

[RedsFan1941]

whatever helps you sleep ...

[Neal]

PWCC is really one of the only games in eBay town that offer true auctions with really, really nice material for all collecting levels and interest. Really nice material.

I think that is the number one reason that the hammer prices are high/ridiculous. Probstein gets nice material, just not PWCC material. I was outbid on a Ruth the other night (closed at 5200) and thought that if the same card was offered by most everyone else, it would have a BIN of 6K plus.

Yes, there are some issues with PWCC auctions, but like Mr. Spaeth says, "stuff trumps all."

[Peter_Spaeth]

The 26 bid retraction guy, which is supposedly against PWCC rules, won this Mantle card.
Take a look at his bidding percentage as well. I wonder if any money will be exchanging hands for this card?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/142495163127?nma=true&si=%252F5ZYMWTEk%252FFiGdakjFMjwotUeRE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

They didn't even bother with an explanation this time. Oh well, if I were they I wouldn't either.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

PWCC is really one of the only games in eBay town that offer true auctions with really, really nice material for all collecting levels and interest. Really nice material.

I think that is the number one reason that the hammer prices are high/ridiculous. Probstein gets nice material, just not PWCC material. I was outbid on a Ruth the other night (closed at 5200) and thought that if the same card was offered by most everyone else, it would have a BIN of 6K plus.

Yes, there are some issues with PWCC auctions, but like Mr. Spaeth says, "stuff trumps all."

debatable

[bobbyw8469]

debatable

+1 .....many people run auctions....

[vintagetoppsguy]

whatever helps you sleep ...

What helps me to sleep is a PWCC thread. Bores my right to sleep. Good night! Zzzzzz!

[slipk1068]

People who consign with them are the problem.

[bnorth]

People who consign with them are the problem.

They are only part of the problem.

[frankbmd]

They are only part of the problem.

Who is john Galt?

Who is Ben North?

We are.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I always thought the problems were pretty simple. People who pervert the process, whether through actively abusing the system or allowing the abuse to occur.

I have consigned stuff to them and I didn't shill my items, they sold for reasonable prices, very low by PWCC standards. That was the eye-opener for me that there must be SOME reason the identical cards go for more for other consignors.

[Beastmode]

80% of my bids on eBay are prob with PWCC. I just don't see the higher grade cards on eBay very often I am looking for. Except the ones that are BINs in the stratosphere. I've bought Gehrig and Ruth's with PWCC at mid grade higher than 1s and As that have been sitting for years with bloated BINs.
I guess I am part of the problem.

+++ Me too. In my world, the percentage bid thing is fake news. Means nothing. Focus on retractions, that what is killing e-bay.

I think some folks think we have endless hours to search e-bay for those half of one percent BINS that are priced within reason. Not happening.

[slipk1068]

I always thought the problems were pretty simple. People who pervert the process, whether through actively abusing the system or allowing the abuse to occur.

I have consigned stuff to them and I didn't shill my items, they sold for reasonable prices, very low by PWCC standards. That was the eye-opener for me that there must be SOME reason the identical cards go for more for other consignors.

Well you are likely the exception. I think many of their consignors and defenders shill their auctions. It is an illusion that they get higher prices for honest consignors.

[slipk1068]

I shouldn't read about problems in the hobby. I get too emotional. I just wish those who claim to want to help fix problems in the hobby, actually mean what they say.

[Touch'EmAll]

See a card you are interested in. Figure out how much you are willing to bid. Put in a bid. If you get it great. If you don't, you don't .

[slipk1068]

See a card you are interested in. Figure out how much you are willing to bid. Put in a bid. If you get it great. If you don't, you don't .

But what can be done about the fraud? Should we care? Fraud is reflected in some, likely most prices.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I shouldn't read about problems in the hobby. I get too emotional. I just wish those who claim to want to help fix problems in the hobby, actually mean what they say.

I'm with you, and I fight to keep my little corner clean.

[nolemmings]

See a card you are interested in. Figure out how much you are willing to bid. Put in a bid. If you get it great. If you don't, you don't .

Yep.

[ALR-bishop]

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img022-1.jpg

[Republicaninmass]

Yep.


I'll still call em out in the end after the consignor sniped their hidden reserve. It seems like a rash if new bidders, with "retractionsunder 10" and less than 100 feedback are buying $1000 cards. It must be new money flowing into the hibby

[Snapolit1]

Sure many of these consigners exchange info with each other and "support" each others auctions. And if they look like they might accidentally "win" something they panic and then retract. I'm not sure what exactly PWCC can really do to eliminate all this. Sure they can ban particularly egregious examples of serial retractors.

As others have also pointed out, I have no doubt that retractions are done by some folks who really want to make it appear like an auction is polluted so others stay away. Lots of these guys have 3, 4, and 5 ebay accounts. Lots of game playing. Problem is the eBay platform and not PWCC.

[Leon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-Pancho-Herrera-HERRER-ERROR-433-PSA-2-GD-PWCC/401397223291?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-Pancho-Herrera-HERRER-ERROR-433-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC/142496376187?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649

Look at the percentages of bids of the top 3 bidders of each of these auctions with this seller.....

NO THANKS!

Just bidding with a few sellers doesn't bother me as much as the retractions. On these 2 shown I don't see a big problem. For the record I won 3 cards from PWCC a few days ago and all were well below my max snipe amounts. They weren't 30k cards though and no one was "protecting" them the way some auctions look to be manipulated.

[Bored5000]

See a card you are interested in. Figure out how much you are willing to bid. Put in a bid. If you get it great. If you don't, you don't .

Sorry. Double post.

[Leon]

Sorry. Double post.

and of course I just now deleted your other one :)...as you were deleting this one....try again?

[chaddurbin]

we all know fair market value...i'd rather snipe an amount i'm willing to buy (in the small off chance i'm being shilled) in pwcc or probstein then try to negotiate with a seller that has a 3-4x asking price of FMV. at least there's a chance i will own the card with the auction.

[T205 GB]

Am I the only one that see the erasure of the a. This is a altered card. Not sure of how to put it nicer. Reminds me of the Nodgrass T206 Variation that is so commonly altered

[bnorth]

Am I the only one that see the erasure of the a. This is a altered card. Not sure of how to put it nicer. Reminds me of the Nodgrass T206 Variation that is so commonly altered

I am pretty sure the Pancho cards are not altered. They are just a simple printing error. No experience, just a wild guess.;):)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It is not erased, an erasure wouldn't leave a perfect blue field, it is a print error.

[glynparson]

Forget PWCC, I HATE the fact that this printing issue has been legitimized. Almost as bad as the Gene Bakep.

I agree the bakep is absurd as are the 1967 white streak cards but what should they call this? there are enough of these that i fee it absolutely should be catalogued in my opinion. I say this as someone who does not own a Herrer but does own probably 10-12 Bakep variations.

[bobbyw8469]

I agree the bakep is absurd as are the 1967 white streak cards but what should they call this? there are enough of these that i fee it absolutely should be catalogued in my opinion. I say this as someone who does not own a Herrer but does own probably 10-12 Bakep variations.

Butterfly Namath too.

[Exhibitman]

Hey Al that misprint Herrera rocks!

Admitted card whore here: I bid with PWCC and Probstein when the item is right. One bid via snipe. Won an item a few weeks ago from PWCC for substantially less than my snipe. Won a Probstein item the other day. also well below my max. Do I get shilled? Probably. Though it is far less likely with the items I go after (boxing cards). My competitors on the last several items I've won have been large feedback bidders with no retractions.

I think the shilling will ultimately hurt PWCC. It is gradually scaring away bidders. I know that for anything mainstream I would want from them I throw out a snipe well below market and let it play out. There are so many specimens of mainstream cards that there is no need to bid strong with PWCC. Another one will surface. Truthfully, the key is not to get invested emotionally in the outcome of the auction. It will drive you crazy otherwise.

[topcat61]

I think we all share some type of responsibility in fighting fraud in the hobby. What did Frank Nagy say -The Hobby tomorrow is only as good as we make it today?

[insidethewrapper]

If the sites would block anyone with more than 2 retractions that would help. If they get a new user id again only 2 retractions blocked again. Then it's up to ebay to stop additional usernames from the same address or computer address. Maybe on ebay a seller could block anyone with several changes in userid within a year. I'm not a computer guy so I don't know what else can be done. Any ideas from the computer software field ?

[edjs]

Then it's up to ebay to stop additional usernames from the same address or computer address.

The thing I see about this is where multiple adults live in the same place, but each has there own account. My sister has five adults live at her house, share a computer, but each have their own account. Same shipping address, same IP address, but legitimate different accounts.

[mark evans]

I am following a PWCC eBay auction in which a bidder with 80% of his bids with PWCC has made minimum incremental bids to reach and surpass existing high bid. What is the likelihood he is a shill bidder? Should I bring this to PWCC's attention?

[Tennis13]

Given all the smart experts on this board who could make sure the PSA and SGC holders are not tampered with, what stops the members of this board from starting an auction house? The distribution seems like the biggest hurdle, but if you are going to have members of this baord, it seems like the social networking there can get the collectors onboard. Then we would just have to find the brokers that lead to the non-hardcore collectors who seem to be buying cards for other reasons.

Seriously, why can't a few of us just team up and make an honest auction house? It can't be that difficult, can it?

[Stonepony]

Given all the smart experts on this board who could make sure the PSA and SGC holders are not tampered with, what stops the members of this board from starting an auction house? The distribution seems like the biggest hurdle, but if you are going to have members of this baord, it seems like the social networking there can get the collectors onboard. Then we would just have to find the brokers that lead to the non-hardcore collectors who seem to be buying cards for other reasons.

Seriously, why can't a few of us just team up and make an honest auction house? It can't be that difficult, can it?

Been done, It's called Love of The Game

[Tennis13]

Been done, It's called Love of The Game

How is it doing? What are its biggest hurdles?

[Stampsfan]

If the sites would block anyone with more than 2 retractions that would help. If they get a new user id again only 2 retractions blocked again. Then it's up to ebay to stop additional usernames from the same address or computer address. Maybe on ebay a seller could block anyone with several changes in userid within a year. I'm not a computer guy so I don't know what else can be done. Any ideas from the computer software field ?

All of what you are suggesting can easily be done, with a few simple designed queries.

[mark evans]

I decided to take advantage of the invitation on PWCC's website to notify the company of suspicious circumstances that might indicate shill bidding. The website advises that PWCC will follow up and respond to such inquiries.

Inasmuch as I have not heard back on an auction that is soon to close, I must join those members who have opted to stay away from PWCC's auctions.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I decided to take advantage of the invitation on PWCC's website to notify the company of suspicious circumstances that might indicate shill bidding. The website advises that PWCC will follow up and respond to such inquiries.

Inasmuch as I have not heard back on an auction that is soon to close, I must join those members who have opted to stay away from PWCC's auctions.

which lot is it

[mark evans]

1952 Topps Mays

[bobbyw8469]

Top two bidders 85% with PWCC.......and your point?

[danmckee]

WOW! Didn't realize so many were seeing the same thing I saw.

PWCC had some nice tough Low-Skip Goudey Indian cards I would have loved to have bought last night, they brought strong prices so good for them.

Dan Mckee

[deagleii]

See a card you are interested in. Figure out how much you are willing to bid. Put in a bid. If you get it great. If you don't, you don't .

How about a 1 bid only your max vs everyone elses... However, people would then have numerous accounts.... DEBUNKED already mythe buster...

[Bored5000]

Top two bidders 85% with PWCC.......and your point?

I don't think the percentage of bids with PWCC is automatically something nefarious; it's the retractions that should raise a huge red flag.

I have had times when I have had bid percentages at 85 percent, and I have never consigned a card with them or bid on a friend's auction.

[ls7plus]

Hey Al that misprint Herrera rocks!

Admitted card whore here: I bid with PWCC and Probstein when the item is right. One bid via snipe. Won an item a few weeks ago from PWCC for substantially less than my snipe. Won a Probstein item the other day. also well below my max. Do I get shilled? Probably. Though it is far less likely with the items I go after (boxing cards). My competitors on the last several items I've won have been large feedback bidders with no retractions.

I think the shilling will ultimately hurt PWCC. It is gradually scaring away bidders. I know that for anything mainstream I would want from them I throw out a snipe well below market and let it play out. There are so many specimens of mainstream cards that there is no need to bid strong with PWCC. Another one will surface. Truthfully, the key is not to get invested emotionally in the outcome of the auction. It will drive you crazy otherwise.

A big +1! I have won some with PWCC that way and lost some (most recently the 1959 PSA 5 Bazooka Drysdale--top bid was around $1100-$1300 when I sniped it with 7 seconds left at $2450, only to lose the item when it virtually simultaneously went to $2475).

On the other hand, there are at least two printed catalog type AH's who will remain unnamed here that I would be extremely careful about placing maximum bids with. I have done that on several occasions with PWCC with complete confidence and never had a problem.

Best holiday wishes to all,

Larry

[1952boyntoncollector]

A big +1! I have won some with PWCC that way and lost some (most recently the 1959 PSA 5 Bazooka Drysdale--top bid was around $1100-$1300 when I sniped it with 7 seconds left at $2450, only to lose the item when it virtually simultaneously went to $2475).

On the other hand, there are at least two printed catalog type AH's who will remain unnamed here that I would be extremely careful about placing maximum bids with. I have done that on several occasions with PWCC with complete confidence and never had a problem.

Best holiday wishes to all,

Larry



So you would be extremely careful about placing max bids with 'at least two printed catalog type AHs' but let the general public bid away on them. If you dont name any names then you really arent accusing them of anything.

[ls7plus]

So you would be extremely careful about placing max bids with 'at least two printed catalog type AHs' but let the general public bid away on them. If you dont name any names then you really arent accusing them of anything.

A word to the wise from someone who's been a lawyer for 40 years: If it appears to sound like a duck, walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, but you really have no absolute proof that it is in fact a duck, better not to make accusations. My point which was most relevant to this thread was that I have not had a single such experience with PWCC.

May your collecting be joyful,

Larry

[1952boyntoncollector]

A word to the wise from someone who's been a lawyer for 40 years: If it appears to sound like a duck, walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, but you really have no absolute proof that it is in fact a duck, better not to make accusations. My point which was most relevant to this thread was that I have not had a single such experience with PWCC.

May your collecting be joyful,

Larry

Ok so no proof.

[ls7plus]

Ok so no proof.

A reasonable, rational person begins to wonder when, near the end of an auction, but still way too early for a snipe, the bidding almost magically zooms upwards to a point just two bids short of your max bid on an item that sold for less than one-third as much five years earlier (admittedly a very rare card, but one of a quite esoteric, obscure character), thus triggering a bid from you just one step below your max. Absolute proof? Of course not. Suspicion? You betcha! Caveat emptor--you're better off for the future by keeping your eyes wide open!

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ok so no proof.

Proof often consists of circumstantial evidence from which inferences can be drawn, so you are misusing the term here. Larry's point is that there's risk for him in publicly accusing a major auction house of shill bidding even if he's pretty damn sure what happened. The same reason one is reluctant to publicly accusing people of card doctoring.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Proof often consists of circumstantial evidence from which inferences can be drawn, so you are misusing the term here. Larry's point is that there's risk for him in publicly accusing a major auction house of shill bidding even if he's pretty damn sure what happened. The same reason one is reluctant to publicly accusing people of card doctoring.

He actually said no absolute proof so i was just summarizing what he said...

It does appear odd though what happened in the auction he talks about, but maybe just a coincidence...if knew which AH he was talking about there could be a back and forth of shared experiences and a discussion that may lead to something.

Someone could be very truthful and not risk any exposure to them if they explain their exact experience with an auction. They dont have to say something underhanded was going on but can just say they were outbid and when etc. It would be hard to see any legal exposure by just saying what happened to you (and not saying why it happened)

[mark evans]

As an update and out of fairness to PWCC, while the company failed to respond to e-mails I directed to the address on its website for reporting suspicious bids, PWCC responded very promptly to my inquiry via eBay.

The company's customer rep advised that they were unaware of any relationship between the consignor and bidder in question. PWCC went on to advise that they had 'contacted' the bidder. I was not advised of the substance of that contact.